Team Mafia 2018: Inventions Mafia Day 4

[Something_Smart]

Uh, because the rules forbid it maybe?

[Something_Smart]

If the reason had anything to do with the alignment of the other slot, he wouldn't be able to talk about it.

[Something_Smart]

isn't reading fun

That isn't what I meant, but it doesn't matter because he gave the reason and it was different.

[Something_Smart]

I have seen very little evidence that he's trying to sort my alignment and a lot of evidence that he's trying to build up to a noisy confrontation.

Which you're playing right into if that's the case.

[Something_Smart]

I don't see what's weird about it

[Something_Smart]

There are people with more posts than Anen that Hindu also ignored...

[Something_Smart]

It's exactly what I would expect RC to say though.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Anenin

smart did you have anyone specific in mind when you posted 119?

I mean, me but other than that, no.

Nice to see you again btw. It's been a while

[Something_Smart]

okay so what was the point of that comment then?

This question is phrased in a way that makes it difficult to not give an awkward answer. There was no POINT per se; I just said what I was thinking.

Which RC? Are you assuming RC is ignorant of self-meta?

There's only one RC, and he is very aware of self-meta but I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions from it. (In fact, it's rather the opposite: that is such a characteristic thing for him to say that he'd absolutely say it as either alignment.)

[Something_Smart]

Today toDay or today January 22nd?

[Something_Smart]

Okay then probably not.

Although it's not usually the case that I say "I want to vote now so I'm gonna vote my top scumread" (unless it's late in the day and I'm still stalling), it's more like "Nobody's done anything that I think warrants a vote yet".

[Something_Smart]

I mean, I intentionally set a very high threshold for what's voteworthy early game.

[Something_Smart]

Yes, but I don't think any of them are statistically more likely to be signal than noise at this point.

I'm much more of a townhunter than a scumhunter early game. Especially with this faction ratio.

[Something_Smart]

OK, then who are your townreads?

Don't have many yet, not gonna lie. If I had to pick out a few it would be everyone whose name starts with C

[Something_Smart]

Not everyone is easier to read under pressure.

[Something_Smart]

No, it doesn't include you.

[Something_Smart]

Okay but like building wagons usually gets reactions out of other people as well and if you’re townreads are voting there Anienen technically has an increased chance of being scum and you think the wagon is town motivated so??

Do you think guilty or me are scummy

Pedit: lmfao

The wagon being town motivated does not make it more likely on scum. It certainly doesn't make it SIGNIFICANTLY more likely on scum. Like I said, signal:noise ratio is still too low.

And I think you and GL both tip more toward scum than toward town, but only slightly.

[Something_Smart]

Do your teammates scumread my playstyle too?

[Something_Smart]

Is your scumgame so bad that your towngame can be apparent by page 12?

[Something_Smart]

Do your teammates scumread my playstyle too?

Haven’t asked yet

And the math checks out: if there’s a 3/14 chance of someone randomly being scum from your POV then 2 correct townreads pushing on that turns that into a 3/12 chance - those are significantly better odds this early on

Talk to me more about your guilty scumread?

pedit: I don’t roll scum that often so honestly idk but I never have won a game as scum on this site iirc besides suav which doesn’t count

That question wasn't at you, though if you want you can ask Eddie and Transcend about my playstyle since they've seen it at least a few times. It was at Reck since the reasons he gave for scumreading me are pretty much entirely how I operate as a person and not alignment indicative, and I wondered if his teammates' reasons were similar (because none of them have played with me much either).

And with GL it's not a scumread it's the slightest of scumleans and it's gut off of 155, like I said it was a leading question that may or may not have been on purpose.

[Something_Smart]

Also your math works equally well for pushing anybody who's not one of said 2 townreads.

[Something_Smart]

Trans thought 267 was town but I need more before I’m positive

I’m also still not really seeing how guilty’s question is leading?

pedit: that’s true but you at least know it’s being pushed by town which makes it the better play than a purely random vote

Not necessarily... because early game scumreads are very often low-quality (especially in a 3:12 game) and because scum like to distance whenever they think they can get away with it.

Perhaps, all things considered, it's slightly better than a random vote. But not enough better to warrant a vote.

[Something_Smart]

Reck, do you believe me that the things you scumread me for are primarily playstyle?

[Something_Smart]

theres probably only one scum in hindu/you/anen

This is a bad thing to say early on.

[Something_Smart]

It's easier as town to find things to scumread than it is to find things to townread.

[Something_Smart]

Null-scum presumably.

[Something_Smart]

Reck, do you believe me that the things you scumread me for are primarily playstyle?

I don't really care about self-meta.

That's not an answer.

[Something_Smart]

I move you down to a scum lean.

Because of the post you quoted?

[Something_Smart]

Cheeky did you miss my pagebottom

I move you down to a scum lean.

Because of the post you quoted?

[Something_Smart]

If you can get NK'd because you might potentially be towny in the future, that's pretty good.

[Something_Smart]

Or both.

[Something_Smart]

I feel good about quicklynching

Problem numero uno.

[Something_Smart]

It turns out that in my time here plenty of things have happened that were difficult to imagine.

[Something_Smart]

It turns out that in my time here plenty of things have happened that were difficult to imagine.

I think it's an issue with your imagination my dude I don't have that problem

Sometimes I've been the one telling people it's possible.

[Something_Smart]

u just lost good position on a scum wagon such a waste

Town don't worry about their positions on wagons imo.

It's not your opinion what people do and don't do as town. It might be your perception that town rarely worry about their wagon position, or it might be your opinion that town should not worry about their wagon position. Those would imply different things.

[Something_Smart]

No, I want to know what you meant. Whether or not town sometimes worry about their wagon position is not subjective. You can't have an opinion on it. You can have a belief, and that belief is either wrong or right.

[Something_Smart]

Does that answer the question?

Yes, thank you.

[Something_Smart]

Why do I always get the worst pagetops lmao

[Something_Smart]

Too town for leashing, lol.

[Something_Smart]

Why did you list me as gun-to-head scum but had everyone else as null/lean reads? Especially since your explanation sounds like a null read...

[Something_Smart]

I might ask my team and see if any of them prefer to listen to people with massive egos scream at each other for pages and pages.

Because I don't.

[Something_Smart]

By the way, anyone counting me as resistance (and rightly so) should count me equally for both sides, because I have no intention to listen to RC or chesskid today.

Pedit: Nope.

[Something_Smart]

I hope he's town because he may be the only one to keep me from going insane.

[Something_Smart]

Does he have as much experience with you as most of these people?

[Something_Smart]

Because I don't see what's wrong with it. It's very easy to call you obvtown as scum.

[Something_Smart]

I think 618 is town.

[Something_Smart]

How?

[Something_Smart]

At Srceen btw. If it's not clear who I'm responding to then it's always the previous post.

[Something_Smart]

I think 618 is town.

Why?

Because it's a good damn idea.

[Something_Smart]

I think 618 is town.

Why?

Because it's a good damn idea.

What makes it a good idea?

Because it would force accountability for whoever was wrong.

I don't think it's the BEST idea. But I disagree with Hindu because it's not just a self-sacrifice plan, but one that wouldn't resolve in her favor if she were scum no matter the alignment of anyone else.

[Something_Smart]

Chesskid I still have a very poor idea of why you think mastina is scum.

[Something_Smart]

It sounds like she's not playing very well.

Why is she scum not playing very well and not town not playing very well?

[Something_Smart]

And why would she be more likely to avoid the thread as scum than as town?

[Something_Smart]

I guess I understand where the chesskid townreads come from.

People not realizing that he's harder to read than he seems?

[Something_Smart]

8. Srceenplay, Chillplay Bombahskiies

Talk to me about this one.

[Something_Smart]

Is there anything more than just him saying mastina is scum?

[Something_Smart]

Did you... not think it could be wrong before then?

[Something_Smart]

Another thing we should remember later is his interaction with Something_Smart, around 696. This may be scum-scum conversation, a kind of "let's not ignore each other blatantly". But, this is, again, speculation.

This funny because we did kind of ignore each other. He asked if I had given a readlist and I said "Nope" entirely sidestepping the implication that I should give one if I hadn't... I expected that he would follow up by directly asking me for one but he just kinda let it drop which in retrospect makes it feel like somewhat of a hollow question.

[Something_Smart]

I still think Mastina is full of shit.
I’ve gotten a couple of town nods. That tells me I have town told somewhere.
Mastina has played with me before and to have them put me as a scum lean, I don’t like it.

Do you know why people are townreading you?

[Something_Smart]

This exchange makes chesskid toxic.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, but...

This is a game.

Also screw pagetops

[Something_Smart]

Like chesskid I don't know why you're here but I'm here to have fun. And to win, but I'd rather lose an enjoyable game than win a miserable one and those two goals are not at odds anyway.

You're not making this fun. And neither is RC but right now you're worse.

[Something_Smart]

I didn't start the arrogance, I'm just finishing it

You're making it worse.

The best way to respond to an arrogant person is almost never to be even more arrogant.

[Something_Smart]

Spoiler: long quote

Ok back to this. I can see your point of view but I don't see these posts as AI in that they can come from both alignments. The reason I lean to it coming from scum is in the context of his whole ISO where I feel like this player is actively lurking. There is a pattern of commenting on mafia theory rather than making reads, so what looks to you as SS helping a fellow TR, looks to me like scum shading and trying to sound authentic through logic rather than putting his neck out to push for reads with actual game content.

I also noticed in his ISO that he seemed to have his early SRs (his only reads) on players who pushed back at his posts. Then he kind of pops up here and there saying nothing AI of anyone, happy to sit back and watch you all tear the town apart.

I'm not one to force reads. So if I can't get many reads then I'm not going to share many reads. That's my playstyle, and I'm in complete agreement that it's proving ineffective in this shitstorm of a game.

I don't have a head for emotion. I have a head for logic. That's why I like discussing theory, and also why I don't have much to share. This game is painful to me and most of the things I've been considering recently are in which order we should kill RC, chesskid, and mastina.

If you want to engage me regarding any player other than those three, PLEASE do. That's how I telegraph my alignment most easily. Those discussions I had with Creature... I'd like to have more like that. But this game is making it very hard.

(As an aside: I suck at scum and would never take it unless I was basically forced to, and I think several players here can attest to that.)

If you want more in the way of discussion and thoughts, you need only ask. But if you want reads... I work on my own schedule. And the players familiar with me can probably also confirm that this is the polar opposite of the way I play as scum.

[Something_Smart]

If you didn’t really have a point and were just dropping thoughts into the thread you’re entirely allowed to say that, why would that be awkward? And what would have been better phrasing for my question?

The question implied there was one specific point.

I wanted you to say "why did you post it?" so I could say "why not?"

[Something_Smart]

Which literally sums up the majority of my playstyle.

[Something_Smart]

It's not that you don't have a readslist, it's that I don't see you making genuine plays to try and get more information in order to sort people. Like if I saw you sorting people but no reads I might be less suspicious.

Anyway I'm beginning to think it could just be a difference in our playstyles.

What do you think of Hinduragi?

I mean, I think most of what I've done has been toward such an end, if it's relatively not a lot it's because I have a life and don't spend hours and hours on mafiascum

Off the top of my head, I liked Hinduragi. I don't remember specifics other than that his defense of me was sound and insightful. Since I'm on mobile I'll post this and then go look.

[Something_Smart]

Hinduragi's definitely a player I want to keep around for a while. It doesn't look like he's pushing any sort of agenda, and I don't really have problems with anything he's said.

[Something_Smart]

RC: Presumably, he knows Reck well enough to be able to recognize when Reck is obvtown as either alignment. I don't think he would have strategically refused to call Reck obvtown if he were scum.

[Something_Smart]

Hinduragi's definitely a player I want to keep around for a while. It doesn't look like he's pushing any sort of agenda, and I don't really have problems with anything he's said.

Gun to your head who would you lynch right now?

Since you asked, Srceenplay.

[Something_Smart]

Tbh I am still super enthusiastic about the chesskid train so if mastina doesn't want Hindu or people prefer it I'll go there.

But calling him obvtown three times?

If he's obvtown he's obvtown. It should be part of Hindu's worldview as either alignment.

[Something_Smart]

How would he expect to get more on Reck's good side by repeating it than by just saying it once?

[Something_Smart]

Three times is every possible opportunity?

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Something_Smart]

I don't remember specifics other than that his defense of me was sound and insightful.

Smart if you're town, it's super easy for scum to write sound and insightful defenses of you. Why is his defense something that can't come from scum!Hindu?

Oh, it definitely can. But it's a point in his favor.

[Something_Smart]

I have no interest in trying to sort chess.

I didn't like the way Srceen pushed on mastina while calling RC/chess TvT. Particularly if that is in fact not TvT, it sounds like diverting.

[Something_Smart]

How do you get to the bottom of what srceenplay alignment is without trying to sort chess?

Very slowly. Though I am operating under the assumption that it's not TvT.

If I were at the bottom of that read, I wouldn't wait to share it until there was a metaphorical gun to my head.

[Something_Smart]

"at this point"?

[Something_Smart]

Sure, but I want to know what it is about this point.

[Something_Smart]

I don't really see why they wouldn't? Most scum players try to play like they would as town...

That said I doubt Kat takes scum given her team composition.

[Something_Smart]

I'm really tired of in-game content being overridden by DAE TEAM ASSESSMENT WOULDNT TAKE MAFIA???

WIFOM exists
Mind games exist

That line of logic literally only leads to sadness and when we have ACTUAL GAME CONTENT to analyze we need to stop that shit

I don't see why team speculation is somehow less valid than information derived from content.

[Something_Smart]

ill wait

Word choice was intentional. Everything we're doing is speculation. Why is the thread a more reliable source of information?

[Something_Smart]

That argument in particular doesn't make any sense.

Also I kinda want to know why you have me in the bottom...

[Something_Smart]

I feel like he'd be more likely to put me in the middle as scum to make me as likely as possible a mislynch after he flips.

[Something_Smart]

Because if he's scum he's presumably just claimed a cop guilty on a townie.

Pedit: none of those were hard stances.

[Something_Smart]

In fact calling the Srceenplay read a hard stance is pretty dumb considering I explicitly stated it was not strong enough to push and I only shared it when Kat said "gun to your head".

[Something_Smart]

I like to assume that people have common sense.

[Something_Smart]

So why does that make me scum?

[Something_Smart]

Have you not played enough games with me to know that that's not true?

I haven't played that much with town-you, actually.

[Something_Smart]

Oh i missed the 'why'

...still generally the same answer though, like going after screenplay in particular and still feeling it isn't a very townie thing to do, but who knows you're here now and maybe are going to update your reads!

That wasn't really an answer.

If you want me to change my reads maybe you should offer an argument as to why he's town?

Like I have an 100% record of faking guilties, besides the one where I was super drunk and don't actually remember doing it. I still fake guilties as scum, have them flip town, and walk away from it. There's this implicit assumption that people are making that mastina flips town and goodbye chesskid that has no basis in the reality of mafia.

It definitely has a basis. The basis is in the fact that most players get lynched after faking a guilty on town.

Granted, it's not a foregone conclusion. But I'd like to think that in team mafia the teams will have enough people with common sense to convince their teammates, especially since as you said what he's doing is less effective on people not in the game.

[Something_Smart]

S_S, who are you scumreading right now?

First of all, I'm excluding you, mastina, and chesskid from consideration. Although I do have some opinions I think those opinions are more likely to be noise than signal and I am firmly of the belief that mechanical means should be used to deal with all three of you. (Meaning some permutation of lynching one and if they flip town then lynching those who the lynched person was sure were scum and those who were sure the lynched person was scum.)

With that aside... I don't have any players I would consider scumreads. When pretty much everything involving you three is removed from consideration there's not much left that's coherent enough to form a scumread on, and I know from experience that if I try to force scumreads based on little pings it leads to tunnels and pain. As I've mentioned before I had such pings on Srceenplay and GL, and I think recently Anen said a thing or two I didn't love. So if you want the people who are at the bottom of my readlist at the moment, it would probably be them.

[Something_Smart]

(Meaning some permutation of lynching one and if they flip town then lynching those who the lynched person was sure were scum and those who were sure the lynched person was scum.)

To this end, would you be willing to vote Chesskid?

As long as it's part of a plan that I approve of and I'm confident that people will actually follow the plan, yes.

[Something_Smart]

Oh and SS you said you had leanings on alignments in the three of us, what are they?

You feel town, chesskid feels scum, mastina feels scum.

Hope you feel better Primate

[Something_Smart]

Ignore it. It's what I'm doing.

[Something_Smart]

doesn't that just prove chesskid's point that you haven't taken many hard stances or am i misreading the post in question

I've taken a few hard stances. (Townreads on Creature, Cheeky and Hindu are the ones I'd consider hard.) But I think chesskid's point wasn't that I haven't taken hard stances but that he disagreed with the ones I have taken... but the things he cited were not hard stances.

[Something_Smart]

I'm a little surprised you missed the Hindu one given that I had a little back-and-forth about it, but the other two I haven't really talked much about.

[Something_Smart]

In fact I think the only thing I said about Creature was my "players whose names start with C" comment but he's been obvtown pretty much since he started posting.

[Something_Smart]

Of course-- I don't think a mistake like that is alignment indicative anyway.

By the way, I appreciate your recent change in tone. Regardless of your alignment, it has made the game much more enjoyable

[Something_Smart]

GL I'm not pushing mastina and I explicitly said that I would vote chesskid if it were part of an appropriate plan so I don't see where you're getting me as a likely mastina voter from?

Also I just realized... I don't think it says anywhere that the hider has to be used tonight.

[Something_Smart]

Probably.

However I said both before and after posting that that I'm not letting those leans dictate my actions because they're probably not > random.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not ruling it out.

[Something_Smart]

You're either like way overestimating the amount of people that scumread me or were expecting something to happen to hurt my standing.

I kinda think that from his POV he's expecting his townflip to hurt your standing...

[Something_Smart]

Unless I misunderstood that

[Something_Smart]

I don't see why GL would be expecting to get lynched when he has only a single vote on him

Did GL say that?

[Something_Smart]

Okay so let me explain it

His first post seemed to be predicated around an EoD flip hurting my standing
I called him out on that
you said no, it makes sense because from his point of view if he gets lynched it'll hurt my standing
but that doesn't make sense chronologically

Okay yeah I misunderstood what you were referring to in that post, ignore me

[Something_Smart]

I still can't really imagine town coming up with the quote about Hinduragi making sound and insightful defences.

There was only one defense that I called that, and it was of the one player I know to be town, so I know it was sound. And it was a hell of a lot deeper than most people scumreading me for playstyle things, so it was comparatively insightful.

What part of that logic does not make sense?

[Something_Smart]

You were referring to GL with the "I can't imagine town coming up with..."?

God damn either you need to be clearer or I need to read more carefully or both. (You can imagine why I thought you were talking about me there, since you had just called me the scummiest player in the game and you were referring to a quote from me...)

[Something_Smart]

Yes, it makes sense.

[Something_Smart]

And yeah sorry if I'm not super clear
want to help me build a snowman and/or wagon?

Do you still think chesskid is scum?

[Something_Smart]

I also think that this lynch gives me a lot of information about both mastina's and chesskid's alignments

I thought you were already uberconfident on both of them?

If you want to know why I'm asking, it's because I want this situation cleared up as soon as possible. I believe that everyone involved who is town is competent enough to dictate what should be done after they flip town (i.e. if chesskid flips town I would trust his computer on mastina), and so the sooner one involved player flips the sooner we can get some real direction regarding the others.

[Something_Smart]

By the same token, it's probably optimal for whoever is scum in that group to try and push for a lynch outside it.

[Something_Smart]

Which is what RC has been hellbent on doing

Well yes, that's what I was getting at.

[Something_Smart]

I'll vote chesskid as soon as we have the hider figured out.

If he flips town, I'm following whatever plan he lays out.

[Something_Smart]

In my first game with RC I referred to something as "pigeon poop". He asked if I was "Adenine" and I had no clue what he was talking about

[Something_Smart]

What if mastina does turn out to be town?

[Something_Smart]

-snip-

http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/home/papers/remove.pdf

[Something_Smart]

Curious word choice with "picked"... As I said to chesskid I have you, Creature, and Hindu as town. Most of my reads though are going to be predicated on chesskid's (and therefore possibly mastina's and RC's) flip.

I would put Anen as leanscum for reasons I can't remember, but those flips are also gonna matter a great deal for him.

[Something_Smart]

@

Everyone not voting

: why?

Because the hider hadn't been decided.
VOTE: chesskid

[Something_Smart]

Mastina I played in DEFCON with you, I obvscummed and got lynched day 1 but you defended me most of the day

[Something_Smart]

Hey Ghostlin!
A. Ellibereth has a computer that finds tells on people, and a while ago he ran some tells on mastina and gave them to chesskid. According to chesskid, mastina did something that she ONLY does as scum. RC is also completely convinced that chesskid is scum, so it's kind of a 2v1.
B. Reck got it.

And actually, the page count is mostly due to RC and chesskid.

Also mastina please don't pull an all-nighter for mafia I realize your thoughts are important but they're not THAT important.

[Something_Smart]

It's not the ONLY reason, but chesskid considers it to be equivalent to a cop guilty. So yes, we will lynch chesskid if mastina flips town. (If you didn't see off the votecount, I'm of the opinion that we should lynch chesskid first. But I seem to be in the minority.)

[Something_Smart]

He doesn't have the program, it belongs to Elli. He only has the output on certain players, and the only relevant one is mastina.

[Something_Smart]

By the way, this is further complicated by the fact that chesskid and RC are both very confident that the other is scum. Chesskid offered to be lynched on the condition that we lynch mastina and RC the next two days assuming he flips town, which I want to take him up on. (There is also the fact that chesskid was the one who contributed the most to making the game toxic around the middle of the day, and I don't really want to reward that.)

[Something_Smart]

two dead corpses.

as opposed to all the other kinds of corpses, lol

[Something_Smart]

It might not have been clear, but chesskid's plan was that we lynch him TODAY, followed by mastina and RC if he flips town. (Of course, if he flips scum, we can do whatever.)

[Something_Smart]

Reck, your sacrifice will not be forgotten.
I think vengeful should go to someone who will need to be lynched before LYLO.

[Something_Smart]

Why go through all that trouble hard defending and agreeing to hider plans?
Was the entire gambit only going to work of Mastina was not lynched?
What was the point?

welp he's rc

[Something_Smart]

Like, someone whom we can't let live to LYLO.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, why not?

[Something_Smart]

Because they're scummy or did something pro-scum.
Or because they're a loose cannon, but that's obviously not what I'm talking about and I don't really think that applies to anyone.

[Something_Smart]

Why not?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, really.
You're implying a connection between scumminess and read strength.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, really.
You're implying a connection between scumminess and read strength.

No.
Implying trust and killing opportunities.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Something_Smart]

If you don’t trust them to be town you don’t trust the to shoot scum.

Ah, but why do you think so? Those are two unrelated types of trust, and I'd think that a scummy person has a better shot at finding scum because they can rule themself out.

[Something_Smart]

Because I want to use the public mechanic in the best way possible?

Theory is the one area where I can contribute completely reasoned and logical arguments. I'm not gonna pass up the opportunity to make a contribution

[Something_Smart]

Also, because I don't want scum to get to choose whether we use the vengekill. I want us to be sure we can use it, because there probably is not another killing ability.

[Something_Smart]

The description of vengeful pretty clearly states that it's upon any death.

Also GL is town.

[Something_Smart]

It's partly due to that, partly due to him defending me and Ghostlin at a time when scum need to lay the grounds for as many mislynches as possible.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think Ghostlin is scum. I don't want to elect him.

In response to Anen's question, I don't have any strong picks for scum since the odds would be low of hitting it anyway. A PoE pool as Creature is doing is the way to go at least as a starting point.

Right now I'm thinking Anen, Ghostlin, Smocaine, GL, Creature, and maybe singer are town.

[Something_Smart]

Also RC, by far the most fun I have ever seen you be in a game is when you were scum. You should try to make your last few days the most enjoyable ones (And if you're seeking to derail discussion, that's probably the best way honestly )

[Something_Smart]

Off the top of my head no strong feelings

Let me check

[Something_Smart]

My main pause on whatever chesskid plan goes through is I don’t know yet if the lines are as cut and dry as “rc and mastina are both scum.” It just seems unlikely to me.

[Something_Smart]

EP can be a townlean. A couple of those comments I don't think come from an RC/mastina partner though I could be wrong.

[Something_Smart]

Also add Srceenplay to my townlist

While looking at ISO’s I realized he had the same thought about Mastina picking RC as hider to nk him which not only doesn’t make sense from a scum perspective to think but also Mastina went out of her way to discredit that read

That could easily be something she told him to do though.

[Something_Smart]

I'm pretty sure she was caught up with the game, or at least more caught up then she acted.

[Something_Smart]

Besides that was pretty early wasn't it? I might be misremembering

[Something_Smart]

Errantparabola? No offense to Errant, but Errant's no town leader. Errant is more introverted and lacks the force of personality to lead and is more of what I'd call a "support player" than a "leader".

"lurker"

4. I buy that RC is capable of confident reading mastina that quickly and that he’s capable of confident reading chesskid scum at this point in time. But back when I was reading RC fighting chesskid, oh, idk, about 60 pages ago, i felt like there was a distinct possibility that RC’s fight with chesskid was constructed, like he went and told his team that he needed to get rid of chesskid immediately (i know he’s basically admitted to doing as such for miscellaneous town perspective reasons). Because i felt like a lot of his fire didnt have fuel.

But I also do know I read a lot of RC posts and just went: there’s no way this isn’t town. a lot of my impressions are lost in the sheer amount of posts and maybe I might go back and check but let’s be honest, probably not gonna happen

Not reading yet, but I did want to mention that I did have a think about a couple things RC said in the shower (mainly in regards to "shitting up the game") and I concluded that RC is town. 80-20, maybe.

To clarify, RC was not saying them in the shower. I was thinking about the things in the shower. Well, maybe RC posts from the shower, I don't know. Probably not though

Maybe by some insane stretch of the imagination, ChessMastina?

these were the ones that gave me that feeling btw

[Something_Smart]

That would also mean she knew she was losing from the get-go

I'm confident she knew exactly what predicament she was in.

RC was her partner after all.

[Something_Smart]

Do something about how communism is inevitable then

[Something_Smart]

At the risk of Katy completely fucking manipulating me...I've asked my team to advise on whether or not I'm being duped. I also have quite the success rate of venge kills but seeing as I might only get to use it if I'm night killed it'd only serve as self-preservation...I need objective observers to tell me if that's not the route we should be taking...

I agree with her (in fact, I suggested it first). We should give the vengekill to someone we plan to lynch at some point. (Not necessarily tomorrow, but definitely sometime.)

[Something_Smart]

GL, how likely would you have been to take a scum role?

[Something_Smart]

Are you creating a false dichotomy or are you putting words into Creature's mouth?

[Something_Smart]

Really? 3241 sounds like he thinks you are null on BYF but wanted to make sure before going ahead with whatever he was planning to do.

[Something_Smart]

I think it was a typo and referring to you.

[Something_Smart]

I almost think if scum she would have just forced a read (or at least made an attempt) rather than asking what you "needed".

[Something_Smart]

Elect: BigYoshiFan

[Something_Smart]

But why?
The pool for this beautiful Invention is Ghostlin, Aneninen and maybe GuiltyLion.

I feel like the stances all three have taken today would not be sustainable ones in the long run.

Whereas BYF is a slot that as far as I know nobody thinks should live to LYLO.

[Something_Smart]

But why?
The pool for this beautiful Invention is Ghostlin, Aneninen and maybe GuiltyLion.

I feel like the stances all three have taken today would not be sustainable ones in the long run.

Whereas BYF is a slot that as far as I know nobody thinks should live to LYLO.

hey smarter is a lot smarter than you. she's also a lot cuter than you. also she dances a lot better than you. you kind of suck dude sorry to mention it smh.

where did she go? I wish she still played

[Something_Smart]

He's talking about Lilith. And it's okay, I just was curious why she stopped

[Something_Smart]

Whereas BYF is a slot that as far as I know nobody thinks should live to LYLO.

Smart that’s not how this works

We’re just lynching whoever gets the venge tomorrow /:

First of all, it doesn't have to be tomorrow.

But regardless, if you agree that we have to lynch BYF at some point, then why not give him the venge?

[Something_Smart]

Missed you saying you thought BYF was obvtown.

Basically he's acting exactly as I'd expect scum to act right now. Sitting back and letting town tear itself apart.

And looking at his read progressions they don't seem super real and they make sense as a partner to RC/mastina.

[Something_Smart]

I agree that we should give the vengekill to a scumread. We're on the same page in that regard.

[Something_Smart]

I agree that we should give the vengekill to a scumread. We're on the same page in that regard.

Okay so why aren't you electing me?

Because you're too towny.

[Something_Smart]

there was definitely a lot of read changes and re-evaluation going on under the hood in my ISO which I didn't lay out in thread, I'm happy to explain them if you want to ask me further questions about them. I will say my read on RC nosedived as soon as he started pushing me as a counterwagon to Mastina, I got a lot of the same vibes I got in Word Sneak 2 where scum!RC (Halos & Horns hydra) death tunneled me.

If you remember that game you should have me as locktown, lol.

[Something_Smart]

GL, how likely would you have been to take a scum role?

don't really feel like answering this is worth all the tiptoeing I'd have to do about ongoing games. If people say I'm the most likely to take a scum role PM on my team as a reason to lynch me then IMO you should evaluate that claim yourself without me arguing about it. my flip will be a better data point then anything I say while alive anyway

Just answer it as you would before the event started. i.e. you know your teammates but don't have role PM's yet... would you want to pick town or scum?

For instance, I can say, without risking violating any rules, that I wouldn't take scum unless I was pretty much forced to since my scumgame is way worse than my towngame.

[Something_Smart]

Alright it's been fun but

Reveal as IC

VOTE: Adenine

I can't think who else Reckoner would have targeted.

Counterspell

[Something_Smart]

I will, nothing will happen because I countered your action.

[Something_Smart]

The thing about GL scum is that you'd have to believe RC KNEW his GL wagon attempt would fail, because lynching the only partner not under a chesskid tunnel is practically suicide.

That said... I do believe RC expected that wagon to fail.

[Something_Smart]

That said... I do believe RC expected that wagon to fail.

Because I believe that at that point the scumteam (including mastina) was expecting mastina to be lynched.

[Something_Smart]

After looking up RC's vote on GL it was actually earlier than I remember so MAYBE what I said wasn't true at that point.

Fwiw though, RC spent a lot of the day pushing against the idea that we needed to lynch within chesskid and mastina. Though that doesn't really tell us much as the motivation for that was obvious...

[Something_Smart]

Rereading from that point (2513) is actually really interesting and potentially revealing. I'd recommend it especially for people who are good at wagon analysis.

[Something_Smart]

Actually it depends on beeboy's clarification. If it works today, it's better to lynch whoever we give it to and let them venge RC since we get the flips one at a time instead of none followed by two.

[Something_Smart]

No, it’s not lmfao

We’ll get to MYLO and then we either lynch that day or no lynch and scum nk the venge and force them to pick from a pool of 3

I mean we could avoid that if we no-lynch when there's 6 players left, which is the same as no-lynching in mylo but without the drawbacks

what you talking about? if we get to MYLO with the venge alive we lynch them...

[Something_Smart]

It topped with 5 Votes. BigYoshiFan jumped off first. I guess Katyusha next.

Relevant is that BYF jumped off in his next post after jumping on. That would be such a weird move as scum especially since he jumped on with the justification "let's see where it goes" and Reck joined soon after that so there was clearly at least a little momentum there.

All this is making me like BYF more and GL less. I still don't see how BYF is obvtown though Katyusha, if you'd like to enlighten me...

[Something_Smart]

As for Chesskid, I've already expressed my thoughts. I still don't think he should be alive at LyLo, but everyone else seems to obv-town him, this might not be an issue at all.

I don't see chesskid-slot as obvtown so much as I see the simple ethical argument: if he were scum, it would mean that he and RC intentionally decided to shit up the game and make it not enjoyable for everyone else just for fun. I'd like to believe that the two of them have enough human decency to not do something like that, especially in such an important game.

[Something_Smart]

re: SS, so basically the logic is "if he were scum, some other people would have caught him by now" ?????? that seems ridiculous.

You've never seen someone who's really easy to read?

[Something_Smart]

Elect: GuiltyLion

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: RC

Since I don't find Ghostlin particularly likely to flip scum, it might be worth it to see what the invention is tomorrow. (Particularly, if it is something else that can get us off evens.)

Pedit: EP, the plan was to lynch Ghostlin and have him vengekill RC, since we just elected him as vengeful.

[Something_Smart]

RC's not a traitor lmao

[Something_Smart]

Why are you so confident?

[Something_Smart]

No, but I'm pretty sure the scum don't have something that can muck with the inventions when the inventions are literally the point of the game and the biggest source of town's power.

pedit: yeah that

[Something_Smart]

The only role I could think of that could stop a venge is a one-shot deathproof and that's just moronic to give to scum.

[Something_Smart]

My first thought was that that kill probably comes from someone who was calling Kat strongly town. (Although I didn't say anything I was actually starting to not like her posts near the end of the day.)

However, I think it's more likely that RC just told his partner who to kill.

[Something_Smart]

My first thought was that that kill probably comes from someone who was calling Kat strongly town. (Although I didn't say anything I was actually starting to not like her posts near the end of the day.)

However, I think it's more likely that RC just told his partner who to kill.

What makes you think this? For either theory.

Scum aren't going to kill people who they think might be lynched, exactly as Anen said. Therefore the scum didn't think that Kat was going to be lynched. If the last scum decided on the kill on their own, then that person believed that Kat would not be lynched and therefore probably had her as a solid townread.

Of course, it's likely that it was not entirely the last scum's decision but instead was RC's idea-- in which case it was HIS opinion, rather than the last scum's, that she would not be lynched.

[Something_Smart]

Ok but you realize that you don't have to call someone town to think they won't be lynched, right? That's where my confusion is. Your speculation makes no sense because scum can make up whatever reads they want and try to justify them however they can, because they'll know the outcome.

Can? Sure. Are likely to? Doubtful.

I don't see why scum would fake a scumread on someone they believe to be widely townread. (Unless they're making a refuge in audacity play which I'm reasonably certain does not apply to anyone here.) The whole point of playing scum is to get townies mislynched and to not get lynched yourself. If you claim to scumread someone who is widely townread, (a) you're going to have to push them even though you know you'll never mislynch them, and (b) you're going to look suspicious for attacking someone whom everyone trusts.

[Something_Smart]

Congratulations. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like, if it was that binary this game would be a whole lot easier, don't you think?

If you're implying that scum would do it because I said they wouldn't, that doesn't make any sense because they'd already have done it. And I don't think they could have predicted that someone would say that...

[Something_Smart]

So saying, very specifically, that you think Katy was killed by someone calling her town has no substance since you didn't even bother expanding on that theory like WHO. Coupled with the fact that you then made am addendum about how it couldn't be you because you actually found her scummy despite not expressing that sentiment...all very calculated, imo.

Why should I have expanded on it? You can look back and see who was calling her strongly town just as easily as I can, and the theory by its nature cannot be narrowed down further than that.

I never argued that it couldn't be me; there's no way for me to prove or disprove the statement that I was starting to scumread her because I never said anything about it. If it were calculated, don't you think I WOULD have said something about it yesterday?

[Something_Smart]

Where's everyone? There's hardly any content.

yeah we seem to be in a rut

we gotta figure out who the doc's going to before we can make any progress

proposal:

Elect: BYF

EP's not a bad idea either though

[Something_Smart]

Mod: Does Ghostlin's vengeful last until he dies, or does it need to be used today?

Probably the former but it said somewhere that inventions had to be used the next night...

[Something_Smart]

Both.

[Something_Smart]

I'd rather you protect Creature than Smocaine, if you're going to announce it.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think BYF is scum, but I also don't think he's likely to die at night.

[Something_Smart]

What do you think of Ghostlin's sudden post right after I called out everyone who had posted elsewhere but not here?

What would be wrong with it?

[Something_Smart]

Caveat: sometimes there are other reasons for the difference. Eg. the player is at LyLo in a long game or

the game you're in is stalled.

[Something_Smart]

Ghostlin > EP is more likely to end the game IMO.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Tuesday

[Something_Smart]

Okay so we need a townblock of three for autowin.

I feel like I'm the most widely townread person behind Smocaine and Creature... is that accurate?

[Something_Smart]

Actually, a better way to ask that question is: are people willing to bet the game on my alignment?

[Something_Smart]

I feel more confident on EP flipping scum over GL.

This was my stance coming into the day, although all of GL's posts today have been pretty much exactly the type of thing I'd expect him to be doing as scum.

Also GL did you just call me a lurker?

[Something_Smart]

Don't think it matters though, as neither GL nor EP is making it to LYLO unless they're cleared.

[Something_Smart]

I think it's Something_Smart. Scum!him knows how to look towny without actually scumhunting.

What do you mean "without actually scumhunting"? Do you believe that I haven't scumhunted?