UNI MUM Mafia (Day 3, Stay Gold Pony)

[zMuffinMan]

i made it really, really easy for dramonic

really, really easy

[zMuffinMan]

you're slipping, mastin. i've made a whole post that wasn't game-relevant and you still hasn't figured out i'm town. for shame

[zMuffinMan]

do you still want to vote sharky

[zMuffinMan]

someone told me that I might be able to beat you in a rap battle?

they lied since that's impossible

[zMuffinMan]

i am pretty sure mastin hasn't posted since #42

[zMuffinMan]

i agree

~ika

[zMuffinMan]

reading tomorrow

[zMuffinMan]

P.s. If you are a miller loved or anything of the sort and don't claim D1, I am gunna cut you.

i've been thinking about how much of my role i want to reveal today

i'm hated. there are other aspects of my role that make it so that this probably won't ever

actually

matter but i probably won't be talking about it today. i have a pretty broken role

I don't see how you can confirm someone is town because they say their role pm says they are faction: bystander (especially now that Dram clarified).

i don't think what sir berus said was particularly town-looking. i do think the fact that dram even posted that message makes it a lot more likely that 3dice is town, though

Dramonic is way too good a moderator to give a neutral a win condition so vague. That was so obviously town win condition that even though I was like "Bystander???", I was certain enough that we're town and not neutral that I didn't even ask for clarification

eh, it isn't so clear. i assumed i was town and checked the sample pm this time, but i had the same confusion in the last dram game when i got my role PM. (not everyone checks the sample PM rather than just asking about it)

Your face is fake.

i think this is a pretty strong point

Can anyone tell me what this is?

an artist's impression of uluru melting in the current heat

I'm not happy with two miller claims here and I'm not certain why this hasn't be noted

i don't really have an issue with the two miller claims and it's even less of an issue in a role madness game

also, i think shiro is more likely than not town

[zMuffinMan]

side note: i likely won't be current with the thread til after boxing day

[zMuffinMan]

Shiro, vote Cerb with me. It is your duty.

VOTE: Cerb

Drixx approves this vote.

~Titus

i don't think sir berus has done anything particularly noteworthy yet, but i don't think anything he's done has looked scummy either. i'm ok with his lines of questioning so far

Do you think there'd be two millers in a game?

have you never seen or heard of this happening before? how much of your shiro vote here is (was?) serious?

I'm leaning towards one of the two of them being scum though, and that shiro just missed the first miller claim the same way I did, since it was just quote and a single word response in a post with other content

i don't get that impression - actually, i think the very opposite

errant's claim looked like it was written in a way that he could make a joke of it if it ever became an issue (he didn't

explicitly

claim miller - it's theoretically possible he could write it off as a joke if he ever came under fire for it). i mean, if he does do this, then he probably should come under heavy scrutiny, but this is the impression i got from the way the 'claim' came about. shiro's claim looks a lot more genuine and i don't think it was a pre-planned scum thing. i also think errant's whole "i hope i don't get night-killed!" thing makes not a lot of sense in the context of the miller claim, which is another reason i don't like the way it was phrased

Like yeah its in the sample pm, but if you're scum reading the sample pm for goodboypoints, you're never going to have confusion as to whether the sample role pm isn't actually the sample town pm.

eh, it's possible scum could read it and still think it an odd choice of wording - that said, i don't think that's what was happening here

that's awfully defensive

not really. didn't see it as 'defensive' at all, but even if it was, i don't think responding to someone calling you scum is a bad thing

[zMuffinMan]

It'd actually be a pretty interesting play for two scum to claim miller knowing that town wouldn't have the balls to lynch them for it. Might even have the effect of the ones claim being believed after the other dies. And deters alignment checking roles which there are sure to be in a role madness

i don't think that's what happened here but that isn't a bad strategy

You just said town is lining up two mislynches

not actually what he said

Wait if a doctor protects you
You would have confirmation when that happens via you receiving your abilities

this is part of the reason i believe shiro's claim - the alternative here is that he's a self-voyeur or something of the sort but that is a really inventive fake-claim, if so, and again i don't think that's what's happening here

i also don't think the verity his claim automatically makes him town but i do think he's not lying about it and i do think he's more likely town than not for reasons aside from just the claim

Yes, you are. You can lie all you want, but the naked vote is there. Unless you want to explain why are you voting me? C'mon, explain why if it's not because I am voting you.

i don't mind the somewhat aggressive attitude here, actually. looks kinda town

i also think the rest of the stuff on this page re: naked votes looks kind of town, albeit incredibly silly

[zMuffinMan]

he did not mention Var's vote at all

i assumed his vote was in jest, a la the 'scary avatar' schtick he pulls every single game, ergo didn't think it important enough to mention

if you're instead suggesting it was (somewhat?) serious, that'd be a different matter

Let's make a deal: you start capitalizing your shit

no thanks

[zMuffinMan]

merry xmas

[zMuffinMan]

catching up after sleep

[zMuffinMan]

er... going to force myself to read this in about 12 hours (i think im about 42 pages behind so ill pick up from there) and, failing that, i'll start taking applications for my vote

[zMuffinMan]

i'm still way behind but skimming recent pages

assuming the lucid dream stuff is legit, and depending on what "one action" means, you could always do something like "i wish to target a player, and if they are town, make them an unkillable reflexive-watcher and if they are not town make them dead regardless of their role" or something like that

though a role as broken as that seems unlikely to exist in a game regardless of whether it's role madness

also i have a throwaway day action that i can use to test varsoon's claim. it quite literally does nothing other than the fact that it technically targets a player

anyway, i'll slowly make my way through the game on breaks today and hopefully be caught up by some time tonight

[zMuffinMan]

it's not a fruit vendor, it just does nothing

i am interested in how "first person to target" works with multiple actions though

[zMuffinMan]

ive read all of like 10 pages so "a lot of content" would be a huge overstatement lol

[zMuffinMan]

@elbirn

i didn't see varsoon's claim when i

lied about catching up

promised to catch up

[zMuffinMan]

still skimming

tbh, even if sharky is scum, it's probably optimal to have errant shoot someone else then force sharky to give either the same thing or a different "dream" to someone else tomorrow (depending on the outcome of the shot today and whether it is just a regular vig shot). still thinking about this in my head and trying to figure out if there's a better way to exploit this than just "errant shoot sharky"

i see roleplay claiming that at least one of {errant, sharky} is lying (or bastard mod) but i don't think that's necessarily the case. that said, sharky should EXPLICITLY claim ALL of the questions (word for word) he's asked dram so far (as well as preferably paraphrasing all the answers dram gave)

i also think this is probably the least well-thought-out scum claim i've ever seen if he's scum - he could have just claimed inventor or something easy rather than complicating things with the dreaming stuff. on that note though, if he's scum then scum didn't really do much pre-game discussing and scum almost certainly don't have day talk or they're all really awful at this game for letting him claim that

[zMuffinMan]

Aw man, if you decide to be my bud, can you change your scary wolf into this kawaii avatar I made for you?

i can meet you halfway and put lipstick on my avatar or something (though that may in turn be scarier than it currently apparently is)

btw, if i'm not the one targeting varsoon to confirm what he's claiming (though honestly my throwaway ability is probably the best to do it since it wastes no actions), i would prefer it to be literally anyone but elbirn. i get a bad tingly sensation when i look at him saying no because he wanted to do it and tbh id rather just confirm it myself

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler: 213/214

So, eh, just curious, what does everyone think would be the single most overpowered single target non game breaking non killing thing you could target someone with that benefits town[1]

? Let's call this a thought experiment. Skies the limit, except for the limits I made. Make stuff up.

pedit: Elbirn, maybe. I'm leaning towards one of the two of them being scum though, and that shiro just missed the first miller claim the same way I did, since it was just quote and a single word response in a post with other content. Unfortunately, in a situation like this we line ourselves up for two mislynches pretty easily, given that I'm sure the game has it's fair share of absurdity going on, which may very well include two millers.

peditx2: dun dun dun the omgus!

1: Reveal the role/flavor of one scum, references to the player stripped, to the public via mod.

This game definitely includes absurdities.

@elbrin, I think it's a strong possibility. 100% certainty, no.

I think they both are likely millers, but that says nothing of their alignment.

Scum would be dumb to cc miller, unless they were one given the heat millers get.

What in the world is a scum miller?

A scum that flips miller instead of scum. I think.

Okay, 3dice and Elbirn are either scum or ignorant of the fact that losing an investigative hurts the town.

Unfortunately, Jeanne11 is stupid enough to claim in such a ridiculous manner with no other pressure on (him/her/it/them?)

I have said nothing about losing an investigative this game.

Nice red herring argument though.

Lynching me or Sharky = losing an investigative.......

How do you know Sharky is an investigative?

If you are so sure, then why are you making such a big deal about my vote?

I'll tell you why, but that would require me to claim. Do you want me to claim?

p-edit: Anime duo is here.

You have already soft-claimed. We don't really need to know what kind of investigative you are, as that helps scum more than town.

Jeanne we get it you're investigative please please PLEASE stop telegraphing it everywhere fuck

I honestly think she's more likely to be scum because of shoddy play so far.

Voting Jeanne11 for not only outing her own role, but trying to out the roles of others.

VOTE: Jeanne11

She did this in Blitz 10 as scum.

topic: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=64414
scum pt: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=64415

tn's logic here is pretty damn awful and it's hard to follow how he goes from saying something like "You have already soft-claimed. We don't really need to know what kind of investigative you are,

as that helps scum more than town

" to voting for jeanne in the very next post based on something that she's done before as scum in a single game

admittedly, the whole "Lynching me or Sharky = losing an investigative" confused me, too, but i'm chalking that up to very poor phrasing on jeanne's part

Hi tn. Looks like you are town huh?

a bit late (cough), but what gave you this impression?

Huh you got me.

It's like...I can see why 3dice would vote you based on those posts, but I personally wouldnt, and given these latest posts of yours I'm not feeling like you're scum.

So basically I see reasons, and I see a possible thought process he could have, and I get it, but I don't think it makes you scum.

If that makes sense, which it doesn't.

i like the way this post is written - it is nowhere near undeniably town but it does feel very honest and it does feel like something town is more likely to say than scum

She basically scum reads me, then in the very next post, throws out a readlist basically the same as mine. Pretty fake.

went back and actually checked this. the "reads list" that is "basically the same" is two town reads... i don't think it means anything and, given she didn't say anything about your stated town reads being the reason she was reading you as scum, it means even less to me

Also, tn is town.

3dice is probably scum.

i don't see either of these from what i've read

also, your posts feel really flat so far

ErrantParabola
zmuffinman
Shiro
Jeanne11

Cerberus v666

tn5421
BBmolla
DiamondSentinel

Learned Hand
sharky5x

roleplay25
Klingoncelt
Edgar Allan Pro

Davsto

Elbirn
3dicerolling

Approximately.

wat

how in the fuck did you have me as town (or even anywhere near that high on your list) from what i'd posted at that point?

how serious was this reads list?

I'm disappointed. You guys are actually town-reading me even though I admitted I was PMuch active-lurking.

i don't mind this post

reading tomorrow

this post is pretty town

I remember reading this thread and someone asking me why I was scared of night kill

I read my role pm
I read learned hand saying if I don't claim miller D1 they will cut me
I decided I'm gonna go look at the wiki for miller because idk how to play as
It says I'd be more likely to be killed by a vig

sad life

i had to go back to check the order of events but i... actually believe this and i'm pretty ok with saying errant likely telling the truth about being a miller

Spoiler:

Sick of this.

Vig: Jeanne

Well, congratulations. I am gonna assume it's real, so might as well claim.

Vig shot was fake.

Pretty sure jeanne is town though.

Vig shot was fake.

Pretty sure jeanne is town though.

Then why even try to shoot me? Even if it was fake, you have no reason to attempt to shoot someone you think is town.

Vig shot was fake.

Pretty sure jeanne is town though.

Then why even try to shoot me? Even if it was fake, you have no reason to attempt to shoot someone you think is town.

Fake vig shot was for your reaction.

Observing your play from this game, you seemed like someone who would react heavily to opposition against them. If you were really were town, I imagined you would react strongly to me claiming to vig you.

Your reaction leads me to believe you are town.

bleh. this sequence of events irks me and is making me doubt my initial 3dice read. i don't mind the intent but jeanne's reaction was nowhere near a "strong" reaction and i don't see how that one post would have given you a town read on jeanne if you were not already town-reading her

Ok, I'm betting 3dice and Jeanne are both scum. No way this was TvT, and it seems too rehearsed for TvS

i doubt it was done by buddies

They shoot based not on the actions of another, but on the frivolous reasons that their actions resemble what occurred on a previous mission!

Agents should know that those who look for connections to a previous mission shall always find them, regardless of which organization they or their other number served. Such is at best a starting point, yet here appears the end point. It is an action, not of tense, but pretense.

mm, i don't disagree with the logic here, but i don't think it's particularly telling that someone misapplies "meta" (as much as i'd like to policy lynch anyone who misuses "meta" like that)

i do think there are other inconsistencies in the things tn is writing that are cause for concern but this point is very minor, if anything, and more like secondary evidence of a lack of scum hunting rather than a major point against him

Talk about going for the easy targets.

i am not a fan, nor have i ever been a fan or will ever be a fan, of this particular line of reasoning - i think it's incredibly weak and dumb and i think it's ironic that you're voting diamondsentinel after making a statement like this

the entirety of this post is pretty awful - the phrasing of the first line and the second line in particular

anyway, up to p21 - may continue reading tomorrow since i get off work early and don't have anything planned til late night

if i were voting right now, i'd be voting for one of tn and davsto

[zMuffinMan]

Zmuff: yeah, that's what I was saying once I realized I'm pretty damn sure sharky is town right now. Shooting someone with a better chance of hitting scum seems better. No, I do not have a suggestion, other than the originally planned target of all the tn.

it's 1am and i am operating on virtually no sleep over the holiday period but it also entirely depends on what people think of the verity (at this point i'm too tired to know whether verity is a real word or whether i just made it up - truthiness is probably the word i'm looking for) of the claim and whether shooting elsewhere gives us any particular benefit (outside of if he hits scum)

the fact that there's a huge list of people wanting to lynch sharky suggests people don't believe the claim or think it's a scum claim but outside of roleplay's arguments, i didn't see any explanations for this in my skimming

all i want to say is don't rush the decision; there's maybe potentially ways to break the game with sharky's role (even if he is scum) and i'd like to think about it when my head is a bit clearer

[zMuffinMan]

I'll even meet you further than that and go so far as to make myself;

i have upheld my end of the bargain

[zMuffinMan]

I shoot Sharky
Sharky flips town
Roleplay pushes for my lynch
I flip town

Right? Is this happening?

if you did shoot sharky, him flipping town wouldn't say anything about you...

i think sharky's already done this

can someone make-believe that i haven't read the game and link me to where this happened?

[zMuffinMan]

Could you please do something else with your avatar?

i'm technically at work (yes, hard at work, obviously) now so i don't have access to the original. this will have to do for now

i blame varsoon for being a bad influence personally

[zMuffinMan]

also the reason i asked (and would prefer seeing) sharky's back and forth with the mod is because i can see a situation where dram, being the tricksy scumbag he is, did technically answer all the questions honestly but sharky didn't ask the right questions; e.g. sharky asked "can i make someone X?" rather than "will doing this make someone X?"

this would mean nobody is necessarily lying and there's no bastard modding; dream interpretation is, after all, a science, and one that very few people have mastered, and while dram is clearly an expert in the field of dream interpretation, i expect sharky is a mere amateur. and if the former happened and not the latter, then the role is still exploitable

that said, it depends entirely on whether dram WILL give questions like the latter a not-vague answer and, of course, whether sharky is town (because if he isn't, then he's just going to lie either about dram giving sharky vague answers or he's going to claim he gave a certain "dream" to someone when he didn't actually)

so meh, probably a lot of rambling here but whatever

happy soon-to-be new year everybody!

[zMuffinMan]

well i also asked about it for a couple other reasons, but mostly that

[zMuffinMan]

And if it doesn't justify it, what about Titus? In one of the games we played together, she decided she was more important than the rest of us because she drew some role that can sensor a wagon. In that case, she thought that her role makes her more important than the rest of us. If she can get away with something like that, why can't I?

i wouldn't use "titus did it" as justification for something being a good idea

just sayin'

tbh i don't detest the idea of wanting people to not read you as scum and wanting to not be lynched etc etc, but the way you're doing it is not the most helpful (and i expect the way titus did it was not very helpful either)

that said, the posts by tn that i've read so far have been pretty inflammatory towards you so it's not like i don't understand there could be some level of frustration, but, aside from the fact that tn is probably scum anyway, i don't think there's a real argument for doing what you're doing just because tn is doing what he's doing

ignore it. most everyone else is

[zMuffinMan]

from an objective point of view, jeanne is quite possibly the worst shot in the game right now, given she has claimed a role that is going to die sooner rather than later

He doesn't want me to track anyone cos he's afraid I might track one of them. The odds are slim, but I think he's still a bit afraid.

given this is going to be a rather power-heavy setup, i would be surprised if scum don't have multiple ways to counter almost every role town has - i don't think he's pushing for your lynch because he's "afraid" of your role. he could very well be scum doing it because he either thinks it's something he would do as town or because he thinks it will make him seem town (lol), but i don't think your role is playing much of a factor in it

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think it would be a bastard role (any more than shiro's "i don't know what i am" is a bastard role and given dram's stance on insane cops, i'd wager that he doesn't consider these things bastard)

i am starting to think it's entirely possible dram put the role in the game and never intended for dreams to play out the way the dreamer thought they would

i imagine dram could very well be sitting on his throne, sipping wine from a goblet, listening to nickelback on his ipod, and looking down on us with an evil grin right now

[zMuffinMan]

@sir berus

i don't think whether or not his claim is real has any bearing on his alignment

do you think he's town for reasons outside the fact that you think he's telling the truth?

Yes, and if that's the case, if things are DELIBERATELY NOT PLAYING OUT THE WAY THE PLAYER INTENDED, then dram is a bastard.

no, not really

supposing the role is real:

sharky gives dreams
dram "interprets" those dreams and comes up with something (in the same way dram interpreted your upick choice and came up with something)

would you consider it bastard if you submitted "serial killer" as your upick choice and he didn't make you a serial killer?

[zMuffinMan]

tbh, if i were a lucid dreamer as sharky has described it, i would just be submitting literally hundreds of dreams and asking what happens if i submit each of them

not only because it would be helpful, but also because dram would deserve it

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, put aside the magical superpowers and LOOK at what he's posted.

It's shit. It's scummy and shitty and terrible.

Look at that post restriction claim. It's scummy and shitty and terrible.

so i'm going through his iso and i agree that the way he's handled his role this game has not looked great and i think the way he's handled his claim in general has not been great.

but if i ignore the role stuff, then i don't think his play has been all that bad. not immaculate, but not bad

is there a case somewhere that doesn't reference the dream/post restriction stuff?

[zMuffinMan]

actually, what's bothering me most at the moment is that he's clearly at least somewhat following the thread but the only thing he commented on recently was diamondsentinel's post about the jeanne vig... rather than anything actually relevant to the current gamestate

[zMuffinMan]

There's been an awful lot of selective commentary that's been irking me lately, so that's definitely not alignment indicative.

maybe, but whichever players you're alluding to here likely aren't the focal point of the conversations at the moment!

Lets go over everything that can be called scumhunting in his ISO

that's not all the scum hunting in his iso (granted, i consider taking stances on pretty much anything a part of the scum hunting process - from calling someone town to commenting on how an event is or isn't shaping your view of someone - though i know some others don't consider this strictly scum hunting) but there's more to the game than just quantity or quality of "scum hunting". i don't mind the way he approached your read on him, for example. i also don't mind a lot of the questions he was asking and the things he was commenting on

i don't feel all that strongly about him either way, tbh, and certainly not enough that i'd be willing to hard-defend him for what he's done so far. i just don't think the way he's approached the game is as bad as you're making it out to be (outside of the role stuff) and i could see some benefit in looking elsewhere for the moment while exploiting THE MONKEY PAW, if it actually is one

[zMuffinMan]

I would like to sing a cover of Like a Prayer (putting my own touch on it) to Edgar Allan Pro.

Like a Prayer: Edgar Allan Pro

Never made it as a wise man,
Everyone must stand alone,
I hear you call my name
I'm sick of something something that rhymes with alone

This is how you remind me it's like a little prayer,
It's like a prayer,
It's like a prayer,
It's like a prayer,
Something something something prayer

I hear your voice,
It's not like you to say sorry,
I have no choice, I hear your voice,
These five words in my head, it's like a prayer

That was five right, Ryan?
Um... Yeah, I think so.
OK, good.

Life is a mystery
and I never made it as a wise man
Just like a prayer, this is how you remind me
Just like a prayer, this is how you remind me
Just like a prayer,
Look at this photograph

Thank you, we'll be here all week. Try the lamb! (We personally sacrificed it to our Dark Lord last night!)

[zMuffinMan]

happy new year!

gonna get through the portion of the thread i've missed today, partially skimmed other stuff so far

even IF sharky were scum of some sort (i seriously doubt he's group-scum), it would be unwise to lynch him today

same goes for errant, really, though i don't really see much reason to suspect he's scum anyway outside of paranoid theories

@sir berus,

yes

every other than the bolded was completely unnecessary

[zMuffinMan]

it's not an ability that has anything to do with my role name and i assume it was left out of the role name because it literally does nothing

[zMuffinMan]

oh, if you know my rolename then i can see why you'd potentially be worried. it's fine, though - my role is... strange, to say the least

and i did not receive any confirmation of varsoon (i assume if that happens it all it happens tonight? at least that's what i guessed he was alluding to earlier at some point)

[zMuffinMan]

i had bad feelings about davsto early, and he's flying way below the radar now

i honestly need to stop being lazy and read the portion of the game i've missed

ill try doing that today. for real this time... no, seriously

[zMuffinMan]

does anyone know if this "woe is me i hate everything but dont lynch or kill me" schtick diamondsentinel is doing is par for the course?

[zMuffinMan]

the one downside to hitting scum this early in the game is that there's not a whole lot of strong assocations

there were a few people calling tn town after an entrance that wasn't all that town and it wouldn't surprise me if there's scum somewhere in that group. and there's some very, very minor negative assocations i can find in his ISO (outside of jeanne). actually i wanna spend some time breaking down that ISO tomorrow morning for whatever it's worth

[zMuffinMan]

so your role name is "vanilla town"? what does it say you have in terms of passive/active abilities?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think VT is inconsistent with what he's said, and i think if that "not negative or positive" line were something he said with the intention of claiming something else, then he would have just claimed that something else...

i think it's pretty obvious he's either VT (ive been looking through dram's rules and i don't see anywhere it explicitly states there aren't VTs) or he's been planning to fake-claim VT

[zMuffinMan]

ive seen you continually state that you want to lynch one of those two but i don't think ive seen you give a reason yet

[zMuffinMan]

if diamondsentinel were a more competent player than i think he actually is, id be inclined to call it likely to come from scum

that said, i think it comes from a place of idiodicy and that sort of idiodicy is, in general, more likely to come from town (precisely because scum are more likely to accept the information as is than create waves) (insert numerous disclaimers)

[zMuffinMan]

o im fully aware youre here, doesnt make a difference to the statement

[zMuffinMan]

with regards to titus and the whole desperado thing, im not giving her any town credit for that

at a time where numerous people were brainstorming ideas for how to use THE MONKEY PAW it makes more sense than not for scum to chime in with suggestions in an attempt to seem like part of the town and i expect scum would do this then try to deliberately waste the shot or misuse whatever ability was chosen in some way

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, I really am not a fan of this diamond wagon. Looks an awful lot like scum pushed on a guy who is town but saying dorky stuff

Vote itlepip with me then.

why is what itlepip said about diamondsentinel more likely to come from scum than town?

why didn't you comment on davsto saying almost the exact same thing?

[zMuffinMan]

i thought the way in which he claimed and talked about his role made him seem more likely town than scum, but shiro hasn't done much since then

[zMuffinMan]

i think errant is more likely town than scum, but this game is almost certainly multiball of some sort (probably not multiple scum teams, but i would be surprised if dram didn't include at least one third party)

[zMuffinMan]

Why?

if you mean "why multiball", it's a guess i'm making based on what i know of the mod (and co-mod) and what i think would make sense in a setup with this much power already claimed

put simply, i don't imagine this being a vanilla scum v town game

that said, this is just a guess i'm making and i like making guesses and being right, but i don't think it's healthy to speculate about this until further down the line

[zMuffinMan]

Voteless scum that is given the tools to appear to have a vote and leave uncertainty as to who exactly is the voteless party, but claims their votelessness AND asks to be policy lynched? That appears extremely improbable.

i don't think claiming the votelessnes is a point in his favour, given this is something people would have figured out via looking at the votecounts and using simple deduction eventually - actually i think it would have been more of a town move to not claim this as early as he did tbh

as far as asking to be lynched, eh. ignoring possible reasons scum might *actually* want to be lynched (whether because he has a role that benefits from this or because he just thinks there's credit to be gained from the way partners interact with him, which seems an unusual concept to me but i know people seem to think this a legitimate strategy...), this also seems like something people would have also reasoned eventually anyway. the only point in his favour here is that he seems really insistent about it, which would be unusual scum behaviour (again, unless he has a reason to want to die)

the thing that bothers me most about davsto is the way he's been approaching reads this game. i thought his diamondsentinel read early on was not particularly great (and somewhat hypocritical given diamondsentinel is fruit that hangs, at best, centimetres off the ground) and his scum reads since then have had some rather weak justification (actually, i'm not even sure if jeanne was a scum read for him? and the only other scum read i've seen him mention is mass flop for their reaction to his claim and the reasoning there isn't great, either). he's playing a very low-profile game and i don't think his "lack of enthusiasm" can be attributed to his votelessness

I think this is a trick role of some sort

if by "trick role" you mean he's lying about his being permanently voteless or something, i don't think that matters - if he later says, "oh, hey guys, i actually DO have a vote, jk about that voteless stuff" then he should be lynched, and he needs to die at some point anyway, so it doesn't really matter

Can we lynch LH now? They're scum. I feel it in my bones.

LH had a rather strong entrance to the game and i felt like they were hitting all the right notes early on - the only thing that really bothers me about them is the absence and the complete lack of anything resembling a push on their primary scum reads. and i'm bothered a little by the confidence of some of the town reads they're stating at the points they're stating them

but eh, not entirely sure they're the best D1 lynch

This wagon seems out-of-the-blue, convenient, and opportunistic

any wagon that happens at this point in the day is going to be "out of the blue", "convenient" and "opportunistic", but what "opportunism" are you suggesting there is here? do you think scum have anything to gain by trying to get rid of a claimed voteless player who is asking to be vig killed?

I don't like Elbirn planning out deaths.

what does this mean and why does it make him scum?

[zMuffinMan]

This logic does NOT come from a person who genuinely thinks they should be policy lynched.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD I AS SCUM GUN FOR YOU IF YOU COULD EVENTUALLY LEAD TO AN AUTOWIN, AS YOU SAY? Trick role as in vote comes back, its gone temporarily, you can disable it whatever, I don't give a fuck. You're scum for reasons outside of that role, but this post here is an explicit confession that you are no mere bad-voter.

i more or less agree with the conclusion about his mindset here

but i don't think it matters that it matters if he can gain a vote somehow; if at some point he tries to plead his way out of it, i would take that as an admission of guilt at this point, as should anyone. and i think all arguments along the lines of "he's scum lying about his role" are silly. he could very well be scum anyway, but whether or not he's lying about his role matters not at all at this point

Muffin, who are you voting?

well, no one atm - i was abstaining from voting until i'd caught up but i'm probably never going to get around to fully catching up (i'm just isoing players of interest at the moment)

i am thinking about lynching shiro today, mostly because there's very little (read: nothing) in that iso that makes me think town outside of how the claim came about, but that is becoming increasingly less relevant as the game goes on

i don't think itlepip is all that likely to flip scum - i quite liked his entrance in the game (in particular, i liked the sir berus vote, not for the reasoning necessarily, but because i think it would be a very odd choice of pushes as a scum player given the game state at the time and it looks more like the sort of vanity vote i could see town making if they genuinely believed they were on to something, but i also like most of the other angles he was seeing and talking about in his catchup). i've also quite liked the assertiveness he's shown in his pushes in general. and i don't really see anything in his iso that makes me think scum and i think 3dice's point about him thinking diamondsentinel is scummy for the reaction to the IC claim is very questionable

there are also certain reasons that are not explicitly

within the game

that i think itlepip could be town

i don't particularly want to lynch mass flop today - partially because there are some things i like in their play so far and partially because i think mastin is going to make her alignment incredibly clear when she actually starts posting, and unlike a normal game where i'd fear her killing me off early, varsoon has apparently made me bulletproof so i am not at all concerned about this - that said, if i do somehow die early in this game, it wouldn't necessarily point back to mastin, but i would keep a very, very close eye on what she posts after that

i had an early town read on 3dice - he's not the paragon of towniness but i haven't seen anything in particular that's stood out as likely to come from scum

other candidates for lynches are probably better left until later days. maybe. i'll probably spend the remaining time in this day phase reading isos and trying to solidify my reads

his ISO is pretty depressing

eh, don't really see this. what don't you like about it?

if he is scum, he's playing very out-of-the-ordinary for what i'd expect of scum who isn't (doesn't seem) particularly experienced. he's being rather vocal in a lot of his pushes and the fact that he actually

has

been providing a lot of thoughts and pushing a lot of players is something i think is something i generally associate with town play. i don't think all of his pushes have had the most solid reasoning, but i don't really think there's been any blatant scum motivation in his pushes

Like he didn't even try, didn't even look into EP being scum, or talk about it at all, while other people WERE discussing it.

why wouldn't he do this as scum, though?

unless you're just suggesting he forgot, in which case, eh, i'd say it's just as likely that he could be town and something changed his mind

tbh i'd think it stranger if he went from "oh i want to lynch EP if he doesn't shoot sharky" to "oh EP shot scum... DIE SCUM DIE!!!"

I felt like pip's jump was opportunistic scum trying to push a last minute wagon. That's the vibe I got from pip.

what does opportunistic even mean here? what opportunity was being seized? why would scum want to seize this opportunity over any other available options? there weren't even any other real wagons happening at the time

i don't even think the reasoning was that flawed and i quite agree with whatever post it was that i think elbirn detailed the possible reasons he might have done it as either alignment, so it really doesn't bother me that someone might have scum read diamondsentinel for that push if they felt it wasn't coming from a genuine place

this is where davsto did the same thing, for reference

i mean, it's not like there couldn't be scum who think it's a good angle to push for whatever reason, but i don't think this alone is good justification for a vote

[zMuffinMan]

actually, i am going to say the reasons that aren't explicitly

within the game

but i would advise no one discuss this since it is not really breaking site rules but it very well could if discussed

there are three premises from which i am drawing my own personal conclusion, you may or may not draw the same conclusion but regardless, it is not wise to discuss why you do or don't

- itlepip (seems like/plays like/is a newbie and, in general, i think newbies are far less likely to want to play scum than town, especially in a larger game like this
- itlepip has flaked from two other games recently
- itlepip has not only remained in this game, but has been actively posting and contributing content

[zMuffinMan]

hm, i was under the impression that dram had given (or was going to give) a slight extension to the deadline for the holidays but apparently not - IMUM at play, i guess

i want to lynch this today

Vote: Shiro

[zMuffinMan]

If we're willing to do some science with people hopping on and off the wagon we could figure it out, but all he'd have to do is not be on the wagon at the time the hammer happens and nobody would ever notice.

yeah... every single day...

Is it really so much less suspicious to say " We lynch him regardless of the alignment of who he shoots, if he doesn't shoot sharky," thus implying that going "oh he shot scum, let's lynch him", than actually making that statement after the shot would have been???

i don't understand what you're actually asking here, but i will say that, in the context of thinking it's a desperado gun, thinking it's wise to lynch someone if they deliberately veer from recommendations isn't strange. e.g. they could have chosen to shoot scum because, well, that was the only choice they had if they didn't want to sacrifice their own life

there's a number of reasons he might not have pushed this issue further after the flip (including the fact that he could now just think it's a regular vig shot, which seems to be the case given some of his more recent posts) - i am unsure why you think it's more likely scum would forget it (or whatever you're suggesting is the case?) than town would drop it. i don't think "well he didn't say why he dropped it" is good evidence of anything - lots of people change their minds without explaining every change in their thought process

Is this a vote for being unproductive, or because he actually did something scummy?

the former. it's hard to "do something scummy" when you're barely posting
\
and i think it's a better lynch than the other available options at the moment

[zMuffinMan]

oh and the "not be on the wagon at the time of the hammer" thing is going to look suspicious as fuck in itself if he has to continually hop off any wagon before it comes to fruition

further, if it ever comes to light at a later stage and he has to start making excuses for it, he's going to look bad for it anyway

i think, if he is scum, he realised he had a very short shelf-life in this game regardless, or he has other reasons he wants to be lynched / killed

that said, it doesn't really matter; he should be lynched or vig-killed sooner rather than later

[zMuffinMan]

also i mean shiro's posted 39 times, but there's like 2 post with any game-relevant content in them and the game-relevant content isn't particularly great so yeah

i wouldn't describe it as "being unproductive" except insofar as shit like active lurking and iioa is always unproductive

[zMuffinMan]

but I don't see it as that unreasonable for scumsto to be in the middle of wagons, off others cases, and unvote based on the persons defense, and not be there for hammsrs. Doesn't seem hard at all.

he would have to do that repeatedly (not just today) and EVERY time he's on a major wagon (not just today) because major wagons don't always come to fruition so you're looking at it 2-3 times a day unless he avoids all major wagons

again, though, these are all things that general raise flags in your direction anyway (you say, for example, that avoiding wagons something you normally do but people have mentioned it multiple times over the course of this game alone...) - it's not wise scum play unless you can back it up confidently with day play

[zMuffinMan]

people have mentioned it multiple times as an issue with you and thinking you could be scum etc *

[zMuffinMan]

If you find it reasonable for him to, as scum, reveal this ability and assert that he is a policy lynch, why exactly are you not bothered by him pushing back against being lynched?

why would i be bothered?

if he doesn't end up dying tomorrow (or maybe D3 at the latest, depending on what goes down tonight/tomorrow), then maybe i'd be concerned

as is, i don't care

[zMuffinMan]

Like meta, Muffin, you're not only doing it wrong, you appear to be smoking crack.

it was not "meta", merely observations and an assumption - the replacement request thread shows up in my egosearch so I open it every now and then to mark it as read

i haven't had the time to do any sort of proper "meta" research

[zMuffinMan]

Riiiick is a fucking miller. He's an antihero. He's not scum, he's not exactly good either. It makes perfect sense. Claim alone says that's he's town, and I'm not interested in lynching him.

are you saying he can't be scum because of flavour or are you saying you think dramonic wouldn't have given him that role if he rolled scum or are you saying you don't think he could have come up with that if he's scum?

[zMuffinMan]

Given Itle's response to the votes, I really don't want to (his response was very 'yah, you got me, but I'll go through the motions') but at least he gives a fuck.

eh, not seeing this. elaborate

post 2030, RolePlay25"]Well fuck that. You're dead wrong.[/quote]
so disregard what i said about the flaking, it was a catalyst in my initial read on him but it wasn't a core point

i've yet to see anyone say why what itlepip has done this game is more likely to come from scum than town

sir berus made a point but then didn't really talk about it when i asked him why it was more likely scum than town

[zMuffinMan]

Also.I think I already helped town remove scum, because ya know, EP was going to shoot fucking sharky at your recommendation until i talked him out of it AND brought up tn again as a viable option, but ya know, I'd TOTALLY do that as scum. Like, absofuckinglutely.

i am unsure if this is actually a thing and i should probably go back and check but i was under the impression that EP was all set to shoot sharky and you were fine with it until i started pointing out it probably wasn't the best play

[zMuffinMan]

he pushed EP to shoot sharky over TN

virtually the entire game did this

[zMuffinMan]

I don't know about muffin, maybe he'll see reason

what reason?

[zMuffinMan]

I will point out (and it's easily verifiable) he spent the last scum game plonking at Diamond for two days because Diamond was "acting scummy" and here he's plonked at Jeanne and Diamond

"plonking"?

for someone who complained about tn (ab)using one game of meta against jeanne, this is awful

[zMuffinMan]

@rp

wait, you're using a confirmed multiball open game (where scum are going to be actively scum hunting anyway) to say that this is similar to his scum meta

maybe if this game turns out to be multiball, you might have a point, but yeah, you don't get to talk about people abusing meta (which i wasn't even doing, but hey, since you're claiming i was, fuck your shit)

[zMuffinMan]

I agree that Muffin's meta thing was bad, 1 of the games I dropped out of is ongoing so I can't talk about it but the other one was stopped cause nothing was happening. I don't flake games as much as I can, and it isn't alignment indicative. The game that was stopped I was town in.

*shrug* i never checked what ended up happening if those games are now finished, it's just something i noticed about a week ago and thought it might mean something

it's not such a big point that it was molding my read, just a side point that i thought might have some validity (even if it actually doesn't)

that said, i don't mind the fact that you're actively trying to discredit the point yourself

[zMuffinMan]

Hmm. are you introducing the possibility that the third party is me?

Not necessarily you. It was more a caution against the "well he's not scum with X so he's got to be town" mentality. Regardless, not something that should be explored at this point in the game (and perhaps not at all)

[zMuffinMan]

if dram didn't randomise role distribution with no regard to flavour, then he's an awful mod - i don't think flavour has bearing on alignment (and if it does, then wow at the mod)

and yes, millers can be scum, but there also exists the possibility that he is who he says he is and scum and not a miller at all

[zMuffinMan]

like i dont believe any half-decent mod would mod a upick and say "this flavour makes sense as scum/town/3p so i'll make it that"

i do believe he might have randomised roles then chosen alignment

or randomised alignment then chose fitting roles

neither of these exclude the possibility of a scum miller, or scum who has perfect miller flavour and chose to claim it

don't try to flavour-game, it's never a good thing

[zMuffinMan]

dram should probably clarify how roles / alignment were done this game anyway

[zMuffinMan]

actually, yeah. dram thinks mastin is scum therefore made the person who picked mastin scum

it's so obvious when you think about it

@dram, why do you think mastin is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

the only point there that i think has any validity is the point about his initial tn stuff

the rest of it looks like you picking things out to back up the conclusion

what do you mean "shiro thinks"?

[zMuffinMan]

that said, i would find it rather hilarious if itlepip is scum who was chainsawing tn given his whole deal about chainsawing at some point

[zMuffinMan]

rather than suggesting "all he posts is theory", can you tell me what reads other than the jeanne one you think are based on "theory"? because even if i squint and look at it sideways and agree that the jeanne push was more theory than scum hunting, that's the only "theory"-based read he's given that i can see

i don't agree with the lack of scum hunting point. i wouldn't say he's been doing the strongest scum hunting, but i don't think it's fair to pull up 6 quotes and gloss over the game-relevant stuff. there has been a fair amount of theory talk but i don't think his play has been dominated by it, though

i also disagree if you're suggesting that shiro has been scum hunting

unless you have a really weird definition of scum hunting

the strongest point you have against itlepip is that his interactions with tn aren't good but i don't think those interactions alone are particularly compelling. more so because the fact that he'd have had to be chainsawing tn while acknowledging that the act of chainsawing is scummy, which i think doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless he was not conscious of the fact he was doing it...

meanwhile, you legitimately have virtually zero scum hunting from shiro and you're ignoring that because shiro "thinks"? thinks about what? how to fly under the radar?

[zMuffinMan]

how in the fuck was the cerberus vote "all theory"?

[zMuffinMan]

There's gonna be a real egg on your face when Itle is scum and Shiro is town by the way~

do you want to take the nacho pact with me?

one of us sheeps the other today, if the person being sheeped is right, they get the sheep's vote for the rest of the game, if the person being sheeped is wrong, they have to sheep the sheep for the rest of the game (for as long as both are alive)

this is a pact of honour

you break it, and you shall forever be known as a fart-breath testicle-head

[zMuffinMan]

oh and the winner also gets the privilege of calling the other their bitch for the rest of the game

[zMuffinMan]

btw are you deliberately ignoring the posts that invalidate your position or are you just honestly not seeing them?

are you ever going to talk about what scum hunting you think shiro has done this game? or what you meant by "shiro thinks"?

[zMuffinMan]

If something actually "invalidates my position" then I'll listen. If you make a crappy point based on the replacement queue that I refute and that you then nitpick and whine that my meta analysis is bad, I'm going to ignore that, because that is a very stupid thing for anyone to post and I don't really feel like talking about stupid things.

yeah, ok...

listen up, fucktard

what i said had nothing to do with "meta" - it wasn't "meta" analysis, it was an observation and an assumption and a conclusion drawn from the two. whether or not it happens to be wrong or incomplete, it wasn't even a strong point i was making, just something that i noticed that may or may not have had any merit

what you've done on the other hand?

first you've made a claim that he's playing similar to his scum game because you described a similarity between this game and another game which was an open multiball setup, where scum had every incentive to scum hunt. your claim is that because he is playing similar in this game it indicates what? that he's scum hunting in a similar way to when he was most likely genuinely scum hunting? wooooo, good fucking meta analysis, buddy. not only that, but your fucking similarity was "plonking". what the fuck is "plonking"? how is this even a fucking thing? and further, you made the fucking agument earlier in this game that using one game for meta was bad and that finding patterns in meta is incredibly easy, especially when you're looking for it in one game... but you still did it anyway. with fucking "plonking"... this... this is the worst application of meta i've ever seen and i've seen some shockers

and now you're trying to make an argument that everything itlepip has done is "theory"-based... let's break down the cerb read, for example, which you call "all theory"...

either this is a really bad soft claim where it really should be, or (more likely) this is scum reaching. The way I read this scum doesn't know how strong town roles are, so they are trying to weed out a cap before any potential claim.

how is this theory?

So don't tolerate me being suboptimal, but that can't ever be used to at all ever against me because it might help me get lynched later, I don't get why town would go for this defense. Basically it is saying sorry I'm new, but reads awkwardly because you also want to make sure you won't get lynched today. This is a FoS for now, probably will become a vote at the end of my catch-up

how is this theory?

Okay this is straight BS. I'm scum reading you because you are playing so safe and scared of conflict or people scumreading you. If you actually wanted to do this and weren't just taking the piss you would be doing gambits and fake claims instead of once in a while making a routine post without any real reads in it.

how is this theory?

VOTE: Cerberus fuck it.
The fact that he hasn't voted, hasn't really any reads, and his entire game is just small points (actively lurking) rather than real content is bad, especially when he is making a big show of not going to be lynched is pretty scummy in my book.

and more importantly, if the cerb stuff was "all theory", why the fuck can't you quote the actual vote post and call it theory? because it undermines your position. it's not theory. at all

none of the things you're suggesting are theory are theory points. he HAS done some theory-talk-related things but they are (for the most part) not related to his reads and the parts that are related to his reads are not the only reasons he's given. you are hand-picking shit to support your point and ignoring things that go counter to it. the thing is, itlepip

has

been scum hunting, he

has

been doing things and and

has

been trying to move the game forward in his own... special way

your big conclusion in that wall in #2104 is that he's scummy for doing nothing outside of "discussion of how the game works, discussion of how to play mafia proper, nothing that actually resembles scumhunting"... apart from being a gross understatement, ALL OF THESE THINGS DESCRIBE SHIRO. i've asked you fucking multiple times now to tell me what you mean by "shiro thinks". i've asked you multiple times now to look through shiro's ISO and show me where you think scum hunting is occurring. why is this difficult for you to do if shiro has been doing it?

the funny part is, you went off at titus for being shit at the game and you do this. fuck, i don't even think titus is a good player but what you're doing? no, you don't get to pretend you're better than titus

why don't you sheep someone who actually knows what he's doing?

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin's starting to doubt, he wouldn't offer the nacho pact if he thought I was totally wrong.

i never assume that i am definitely right, so there's always doubt in my positions. that said, if you were to ask me to bet

(fake monopoly not-breaking the rules)

cold hard cash on which of us was right, i'd take you up on it in a heartbeat

because your position is awful. nobody has been able to provide an adequate reason for itlepip being scum. the closest anyone has come is sir berus, and he's already admitted it's not rock-solid reasoning. and nobody has been able to give me a better reason than "well shiro claimed mason and masons are town!!" for why shiro is apparently town

[zMuffinMan]

@zmuffin

I am pretty sure it was said in the signup that characters pick will affect our roles.. My theory is that alignments were first roled then roles were made based on the flavour.

Flavour correlation is 100% I mean look at your role pm, there is no way flavour wasn't taken in consideration when creating the roles.

no. this was never said. if it was, i wouldn't have joined this game because that's borderline fucking retarded

and yes, flavour is related to roles - nobody is contesting that...

[zMuffinMan]

It's all shit you could post in Mafia Discussion without even playing in a game muffin

...............

yeah by that logic, virtually every argument that's ever been made is a "theory" point

[zMuffinMan]

So if you want to be worthless, be worthless. You can leave the name calling out of it.

yeah, fuck up retard, you're shit at the game and you're calling others worthless and shit

get fucked

[zMuffinMan]

like literally your only response is "oh this is theory because it's theory"

that's your only response

go you, you fucking amazing player, you

[zMuffinMan]

"arguing theory points is scummy"
"using one game as meta is scummy"
"wanting to die is scummy"

literally all could be in MD

find one player in that hasn't posted something that could be argued as "theory" points, and i'll cede you have a foundation for your argument

because calling shit "theory" doesn't mean shit if your definition of "theory" is "things that people think are scummy"

[zMuffinMan]

what "buzzwords"?

"buzzword" is the biggest buzzword of them all, because it means jack shit

[zMuffinMan]

oh i get it now

your argument is that while shiro has done virtually zero scum hunting, at least it's not fake scum hunting

and itlepip is doing fake scumhunting because he used some wikitells and nobody town ever does that (and you're trying to make out as though he does this every time he posts any reads, when... he doesn't)

ok

shit argument

moving back to the point at hand, why is shiro town?

[zMuffinMan]

show me these wikitells outside of the jeanne read, please. you keep coming back to it as though it happens every time he posts a read. shouldn't be too hard to show me some examples outside of that. i'll give you "active lurking" re: sir berus as a freebie (even though i think that's a legitimate tell), find me these other wikitells that constitute fake scum hunting in your books

[zMuffinMan]

yeah and the argument is a shit one with no basis in reality

every time youre asked to show something, you assert it as fact when it isn't

grats

still not answering why shiro is town

[zMuffinMan]

calling you a fuckwit and a retard was unfair of me. i apologise to the fuckwits and retards of the world

[zMuffinMan]

still not answering why shiro is town

still not providing any evidence for your assertions

you're worse than titus

[zMuffinMan]

If something actually "invalidates my position" then I'll listen. If you make a crappy point based on the replacement queue that I refute and that you then nitpick and whine that my meta analysis is bad, I'm going to ignore that, because that is a very stupid thing for anyone to post and I don't really feel like talking about stupid things.

yeah, ok...

listen up, fucktard

what i said had nothing to do with "meta" - it wasn't "meta" analysis, it was an observation and an assumption and a conclusion drawn from the two. whether or not it happens to be wrong or incomplete, it wasn't even a strong point i was making, just something that i noticed that may or may not have had any merit

what you've done on the other hand?

first you've made a claim that he's playing similar to his scum game because you described a similarity between this game and another game which was an open multiball setup, where scum had every incentive to scum hunt. your claim is that because he is playing similar in this game it indicates what? that he's scum hunting in a similar way to when he was most likely genuinely scum hunting? wooooo, good fucking meta analysis, buddy. not only that, but your fucking similarity was "plonking". what the fuck is "plonking"? how is this even a fucking thing? and further, you made the fucking agument earlier in this game that using one game for meta was bad and that finding patterns in meta is incredibly easy, especially when you're looking for it in one game... but you still did it anyway. with fucking "plonking"... this... this is the worst application of meta i've ever seen and i've seen some shockers

and now you're trying to make an argument that everything itlepip has done is "theory"-based... let's break down the cerb read, for example, which you call "all theory"...

either this is a really bad soft claim where it really should be, or (more likely) this is scum reaching. The way I read this scum doesn't know how strong town roles are, so they are trying to weed out a cap before any potential claim.

how is this theory?

So don't tolerate me being suboptimal, but that can't ever be used to at all ever against me because it might help me get lynched later, I don't get why town would go for this defense. Basically it is saying sorry I'm new, but reads awkwardly because you also want to make sure you won't get lynched today. This is a FoS for now, probably will become a vote at the end of my catch-up

how is this theory?

Okay this is straight BS. I'm scum reading you because you are playing so safe and scared of conflict or people scumreading you. If you actually wanted to do this and weren't just taking the piss you would be doing gambits and fake claims instead of once in a while making a routine post without any real reads in it.

how is this theory?

VOTE: Cerberus fuck it.
The fact that he hasn't voted, hasn't really any reads, and his entire game is just small points (actively lurking) rather than real content is bad, especially when he is making a big show of not going to be lynched is pretty scummy in my book.

and more importantly, if the cerb stuff was "all theory", why the fuck can't you quote the actual vote post and call it theory? because it undermines your position. it's not theory. at all

none of the things you're suggesting are theory are theory points. he HAS done some theory-talk-related things but they are (for the most part) not related to his reads and the parts that are related to his reads are not the only reasons he's given. you are hand-picking shit to support your point and ignoring things that go counter to it. the thing is, itlepip

has

been scum hunting, he

has

been doing things and and

has

been trying to move the game forward in his own... special way

your big conclusion in that wall in #2104 is that he's scummy for doing nothing outside of "discussion of how the game works, discussion of how to play mafia proper, nothing that actually resembles scumhunting"... apart from being a gross understatement, ALL OF THESE THINGS DESCRIBE SHIRO. i've asked you fucking multiple times now to tell me what you mean by "shiro thinks". i've asked you multiple times now to look through shiro's ISO and show me where you think scum hunting is occurring. why is this difficult for you to do if shiro has been doing it?

the funny part is, you went off at titus for being shit at the game and you do this. fuck, i don't even think titus is a good player but what you're doing? no, you don't get to pretend you're better than titus

why don't you sheep someone who actually knows what he's doing?

literally

all you have to do

is give a proper response to anything here

but you can't or you won't and in either case, that means you have no leg to stand on

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, good defense there, roleplay

you're truly a less toxic and far better player than titus

[zMuffinMan]

no, you didn't answer shit. you address one point in an incomplete way and despite me asking you multiple times before and after that post, you still haven't addressed the main question i've asked you over and over; why is shiro town?

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: Cerberus fuck it.
The fact that he hasn't voted, hasn't really any reads, and his entire game is just small points (actively lurking) rather than real content is bad, especially when he is making a big show of not going to be lynched is pretty scummy in my book.

"Not voting is scummy"
"Not immediately posting reads is scummy"
"Making a big showy defense is scummy"

It's all shit you could post in Mafia Discussion without even playing in a game muffin.

So if you want to be worthless, be worthless. You can leave the name calling out of it.

this is literally your only response to that, and when i pointed out how fucking dumb this argument is, you go on about buzzwords instead

by your definition of "theory", quite literally every argument that's been posted so far in this game is a "theory" point

because your definition is really no more than "things people think are scummy"

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, whatever, just gonna ignore you if you can't even mount an actual solid argument in response to anything

[zMuffinMan]

I am not a fan of lynching either miller claim.

why do you think the miller claim is unlikely to be scum?

what do you think of shiro's play?

[zMuffinMan]

i've thought 3dice looked pretty town at points of the game - i only have minor issues with him, really

[zMuffinMan]

i haven't seen a compelling reason to think elbirn's scum and i think some of his early play (specifically, the approach he was taking to reading people and explaining his thought processes) looked town. there's also minor things like the reaction to varsoon's final form that looked like it was coming from a town mindset

@titus,

i think there's almost certainly at least one miller. it's quite possible both are truthful. i don't think that would necessarily mean they're both town, though...

[zMuffinMan]

remind me why you think elbirn's scum

[zMuffinMan]

i have work in like 4 hours so i'm gonna sleep

the only thing that bothered me about elbirn's shiro-miller thingy is the whole "gdi" part of the post where he explained it. will look at it again maybe in the morning

i'm ok with what shiro is doing atm, i suppose, but this is coming at the deadline, when i've pointed out how little scum hunting he's actually been doing, and none of what he's saying right now is stuff i couldn't see coming from either alignment

the major issue i have with shiro is that he's been around for the entire day phase but the only vote he's thrown down is the sharky one which was for not-super-great reasons and i don't really believe this is the only scum read he's felt was good enough to vote, and the ratio of game-relevant content he's produced in comparison to how much he's been posting is very, very small

[zMuffinMan]

So if you want to be worthless, be worthless. You can leave the name calling out of it.

yeah, fuck up retard, you're shit at the game and you're calling others worthless and shit

get fucked

This needs to either get modkilled or WotC killed. To my everlasting shame, I slipped and let my exposure to the internet cause me to use the word "tard" in a completed game on site. It's the worst thing I've ever said on this site.

The word "retard" is so far across the line and so blatantly a cruel attack against the person (and most certainly not the play), and it's also ridiculously insulting to the rest of us.

~Drixx

Thinking there's a "line" and thinking that one insult is somehow worse than another is fucking

reta

dumb.

Being offended is entirely a subjective thing. The fact that you personally think the word "retard" is worse than, say, the word dumb means nothing to me. I don't care. Nobody should unless they're of the belief that insults

at all

are bad. Making the argument that insults are fine but there's a line somewhere is just a really fucking dumb point of view.

From my point of view, there's little difference between that and being called dumb, worthless, etc. You think being called a retard is bad? Why? Because you personally think that? Why should I care? Insults in general are designed to make one person feel worse about themselves, and the fact that you personally think one insult is worse than another doesn't mean shit, because that's your personal opinion, your personal experience. It is also entirely possible for someone to feel more offended by the term "worthless" or "dumb" than the term "retard" and be able to justify it. Would they have grounds to call for your mod kill if you used either term?

Either take a hard line against insults in general or deal with it. I wasn't the one who started slinging insults. I'm perfectly fine not doing so, but whining for a mod kill is pathetic. Oops. Is pathetic a trigger word for you, too? Sorry but not really sorry in advance.

[zMuffinMan]

It's not an insult to say I'm crippled. It is an insult to call me a cripple.

yeah that's your opinion

[zMuffinMan]

and honestly that distinction is fucking crippled

[zMuffinMan]

It's all about perceived intent, the word itself is nothing.

that is exactly my point... that's exactly not what Drixx is arguing

[zMuffinMan]

@sir Berus

I am aware that he personally thinks that. That is entirely

his perception

and others might have

different perceptions

That has been my point all along, and not the point he is making.

In any case, I don't care to argue this anymore. I may review some other options before the day ends but a cursory retread of Shiro's ISO makes me still quite fine with this lynch over others. And I've still yet to see a compelling counter-argument

[zMuffinMan]

it's 1d6ish hours, davsto's count is wrong

doing stuff when home

[zMuffinMan]

20 pages... yay

[zMuffinMan]

will lynch anything with a pulse over no lynch, dont really feel up to reading shit atm, someone summarise

[zMuffinMan]

i am always in favour of not doing anything

[zMuffinMan]

anyway, was thinking back on the sharky stuff happening earlier in the game and remembered this

In fact, if it's a regular, 100% don't shoot me, because I can confirm my role next time Sharky can Daydream.

I didn't say I had a case on you (other than you shitty posts, which don't deserve to be addressed). I was simply saying that I'm not a good shot to take.

was this stuff ever explained?

[zMuffinMan]

If you are on the above list, I need to know if you received any unexpected messages from the mod, and if something unexpected happened with regards to your action last night.

no
no

[zMuffinMan]

i am pretty sure the dream has to target a single player. it works a lot easier if you can say something like what i suggested d1: "target X, if X is town do Y, if X is scum make X die"

dunno if that's a possible dream

anyway, gonna at least pretend i'm reading stuff while i eat

also, i spose i must now honour the pact

- sir roleplay-sama's bitch

[zMuffinMan]

um, yeah, i would like it very much if this is the game where i can be *that* guy - the guy who does nothing all game, gets carried to a win, and then says "gg another town win, im on a roll!" at the end of the game as though i contributed

i can be the guy who provides comic relief with his brilliant sense of humour. what do you call a snail on a ship? a snailor!

- sir roleplay-sama the great's loyal sheep

[zMuffinMan]

fyi i think remaining scum is somewhere in this list: {EAP, 3dice, mass flop, diamondsentinel, sharky, shiro}

*pending results of this shot

i may go about doing some reading and narrowing that list down further

[zMuffinMan]

@sir Berus,

what is the point of not revealing who should have received the friendly neighbour thingy

[zMuffinMan]

do you know that your own action went through, sir Berus? besides which, there are reasons aside from a reflexive roleblocker/ascetic role that it might have failed

[zMuffinMan]

@sir Berus,

would EAP themselves not know you targeted them?

as for alternate explanations, there's a number of possibilities from role stops (which are not the same as roleblocks) to redirects

basically if you were to kindly state "i am 100% sure my action went through on EAP" it'd make me feel better

[zMuffinMan]

my only issue with roleplay is that he's pushing titus solely because of the itle read

im hilarious

[zMuffinMan]

oh, wait

if varsoon is scum, i dont get to coast

damn

[zMuffinMan]

listening to DV and regfan sing duet. VLA ruptured ears

[zMuffinMan]

varsoon why you gotta break my heart?

[zMuffinMan]

no PMs overnight. reading stuff after work today

[zMuffinMan]

the idea that EAP were doing what they were doing if i were scum is quite dumb - i'm pretty sure EAP knew my role and because they knew my role, they'd know there's literally no need for them to make the stupid claims they were making about me to protect me. i'm both unlynchable and unkillable*, and i assumed the whole "i'm a bodyguard" thing was designed around forcing scum to attempt and waste kills on me (which may have worked were i more active, but whatever). EAP would have (almost certainly) known my role; they didn't need to make up dumb shit to protect me or something like that if i'm scum. further, they ended yesterday pleading that i get copped - why does EAP suggest this if i'm scum? it doesn't even necessarily save him if i'm scum unless i'm a godfather (because he could still be lynched regardless), and it would have spelled a certain loss for him if i actually were scum

that said, i know i haven't been paying as much attention to this game as i should be (to be fair, i was kind of coasting on the conftown thing as a reason to be lazy but i also just am legitimately busy IRL) so i'm not entirely opposed to the idea of testing my claim if anyone actually cares - lynch me, vig me, cop me, etc

i'm only semi-caught-up on recent events since i skimmed the end of yesterday and skimmed most of today

i think remaining scum is probably in {floppy, shiro, diamondsentinel} with an outside chance at 3dice, but that's mostly vague poe and i don't have any compelling reasoning for that at the moment. i need to do some reading and stop being lazy and whatnot - i am planning on doing this, but i'm also working 6 days a week at the moment and i'm not at home and awake for more than a couple hours a day so eh, it's going to take a bit of time

* there's also conditions around my role that i don't think are worth discussing but for now i am what i say i am

[zMuffinMan]

oh, and for completeness sake, my upick submission was: that time when you and your friends were having a rather light-hearted conversation and everyone was having a good laugh and then someone mentioned music they like and the conversation turned towards "name some good bands" and you said "nickelback" and there was a very long and awkward pause where they just stared at you for a while and one of them shook their head while still maintaining the stare and after that things just weren't the same

the flavour behind the unlynchable/unkillable status is that my favourite group doesn't wanna die and the flavour behind my hated status should be obvious

[zMuffinMan]

well technically if EAP won only if i win then he'd have reason to lie for me if i'm scum, which is what i'm guessing dram is alluding to with his answers to the questions

the point i was making was that, assuming EAP knew my role (and i'm guessing he almost certainly did), his actions don't make a lot of sense if i were scum

[zMuffinMan]

Also how does unlynchable being hated make any sense?

*shrug* day ends with one less lynch but i don't die. don't ask me

i think dram is just tsundere for nickelback

Actually, before we end the day - muffin, do you have any powers that target someone?

i only have the power of song

i can type any song title bolded in thread and i get to sing to that player, but it doesn't actually do anything

i could sing my rendition of strawberry kisses to someone today, for example. i'm pretty good at music, in case you haven't heard

Oh right.

At night. Anything that targets at night?

no

[zMuffinMan]

i dont think there is any flavour if youre expecting something

[zMuffinMan]

i can just sing to 3dice and confirm that either im lying about having an action or im telling the truth about at least being unkillable

[zMuffinMan]

or that

[zMuffinMan]

Strawberry Kisses: RolePlay25

[zMuffinMan]

whether or not he was over the line, you initiated it by acting like a pompous prick and any insults he threw weren't coming out of thin air

you guys should really just stop addressing each other and you especially should stop trying to get other people punished for "crossing some line" when you are the ones provoking. you don't go into a fucking zoo and poke a lion in the eye then complain when he's mauling you to death because all you did was poke him in the eye

[zMuffinMan]

oh, fuck up, you whiny cunt cerberus - if you think i'm instigating something, you don't have a fucking clue what instigating means