Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

[catboi]

Hai all~ o(〃＾▽＾〃)o

Excited this finally started, looking forward to playing with Takemikazuchi02 and Asphodelus basd on what I've seen of you elsewhere.

[catboi]

VOTE: ash



Ready for another perfect game?

I could only be so lucky to get one.

One thing I am noticing from the games Ive watched and read so far is that the way I played in that game isn't well liked. Im going to try to post more and quicker rather than my big text walls this time.

VOTE: GoodMorning

Let's get this triangle going.

Ps. I appreciate youre the only one who shortens it into Ash and no Aspho.

All the wallposters get broken by site meta. It's sad to see. Some of my best friends back in the day were wallposters. But don't feel pressured by my nostalgia, try to find the posting style that works best for you.

@Numbers: what are you trying that's different than your previous approach, can you be more specific?

It's been like years since my last attempt so I don't remember it well, sorry. I'm mostly just trying to not psych myself out over my reads possibly being wrong (let's be real here, they almost unavoidably are going to be wrong) and how my posts look to other people.

Being wrong is a part of the game. Even the best players are frequently wrong. Us mere mortals have to cope with stumbling around blindly and occasionally lucking into being right. Don't beat yourself up over it too much. (I am not good at following this advice.

---

Find myself a little too wrapped up in conversation, not enough forward momentum.

VOTE: Bellaphant

Call it a gut feeling.

[catboi]

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

I am unfazed.

VOTE: goldfish

A better vote.

I just want to repeat this early: a newbie game day one shouldn't last much more than ten pages

I disagree with that statement, I think having a reasonable amount of content to work off of for future days is the most helpful thing you can do. Having too short a day 1 tends to mean you're starting day 2 with not much more info than you had on day 1.

Do I find you saying this scummy? Eh. I actually doubt you'd advance a point that might be seen as unpopular and anti-town out of some plan to overtly push scum agenda.

[catboi]

VOTE: Bella

Take this as an encouragement to not play in the safe non-commital way you did last game, even if that's just your playstyle.

I advise not jumping down someone's throat just because you don't like their playstyle. We're here to play a game on the internet, let's be nice.

I don't see scum opening the game this way, though?

[catboi]

VOTE: Goldfish[/vote

Feels slightly awkward.

[catboi]

I've played with Goldfish for a while elsewhere, she just plays like that. So far I don't have a read on her. I'm not saying she's town but this isn't a good reason to vote her. All her other games on this site so far she has been town and people always sus her for stuff like this.

That may be so, but on page 2 I'm going to mostly poke around at whatever I notice and not worry too much about meta or the like. All just a feeling out process right now, anyway.

Do you think I was expecting that my vote would bother you in some way?

I think you were expecting some form of a reaction from me. *shrug*

I guess 'day ten' is arbitrary and not exactly what I mean: I just find a very long day one to be tedious and without a huge amount of progress after a while. I don't think it's just 'wagons' that mark momentum: for example, avoiding circular conversations. I don't think it's controversial to say we have more info on day 2.

I do agree that there is a limit to productive discourse and that the meta on site tends to unfortunately dragging days out aimlessly and killing motivation, which is antitown. We can maybe circle back to this discussion at the halfway mark if it's necessary and see how we feel about consolidating and ending the day.

[catboi]

What is up with that cake that is on some posts, I had a cake on my first post too, why?

It's the scumday icon, it appears on the anniversary of when you made your account

[catboi]

VOTE: numbers

I don't like how you've been playing the returning player card since the start of the game.

What don't you like about it?

[catboi]

I don't know if I've ever played with catboi. I do know we share some friends in common? But even if we had played 6 years ago, meta that old isn't usually very good.

I don't believe we've ever played together, and if we have it was too long ago for me to remember. (but on reading my old games, it turns out I don't remember a lot of things I played in)

I feel like I should be offended that you think I'd be that obvious with a reaction test, or that you think I'd believe that you'd panic at one vote on page 1. I can concede that I expected you would say something about it rather than ignoring it completely, but other than you being the one who did the thing I didn't like, it's not really about you. If that makes sense. I don't think I expressed that very well.

Well, I consider any sort of early game pressure to be sort of prodding people for reactions (if done properly). I differentiate that from a "reaction test", which I think of as something like faking a report on someone to see how they respond. I

think

I get what you're saying about it not being about me. If it's interesting enough, maybe talk about what you didn't like? The game feels a little too cautious so far, normally you need someone to start throwing about strong accusations to move things forward. (I realize I haven't helped with moving things just yet, but my attention was divided when the game started and is less so now)

[catboi]

@catboi: I did elaborate later in the same post, in response to Cat. What makes you qualify one vote as early game pressure? I would tend to feel that early game pressure RE: votes would require, like, E-2 in a Micro sized game, and it's clear that you didn't feel pressured by my vote here.

Ah, my bad for missing that, I really wasn't paying close attention when I was reading up because I was still tired.

In general I think of any vote as some form of pressure if there's a measure of seriousness behind it.

P-Edit: I don't see why you'd want to vote the lurker. It's more likely that they both just flaked in general and we should wait for a replacement, given that there are no posts at all.

in newbie games especially flaking slots are mafia at an above average rate, although it's hardly a slam dunk.

I clicked over and saw the player list and that explains everything. [Redacted because I don't have anything nice to say.] I'll just note that there is such a thing as posting too much.

I had assumed you meant votato but it looks like you didn't have the, *ahem*

pleasure

of experiencing his awfulness in games since he was banned before you came back.

I didn't like 17 specifically. There were a couple reasons for this but they all boil down to it feeling manufactured. The conversation with Ash and numbers feels like manufactured friendliness; the "oh, I feel like I'm stagnating" feels like manufactured concern, and the vote on Bella feels like a manufactured attempt to push for towncred by pushing away from RVS in an appropriately RV-friendly way.

Of course, feelings are the ultimate YMMV, but it's unusual for everything in an early post to ping me that way.

Ah, perfectly understandable. I tend to play RVS in newbie games differently because I sort of what to project a different image here as being helpful, rather than being more aggressive as that's more prone to being misinterpreted. I am aware that too much idle conversation tends to make a game stagnate, though, and so I wanted to try to do

something

.

[catboi]

@syu, how strong should reads be on page 3?

Usually not very, but I see two people that I want to lynch already.

FYI, the site has phased out the usage of the term "lynch" and it's no longer allowed to be used in games. use another term instead, "eliminate" is the standard for newbie games.

[catboi]

VOTE: Bella

Take this as an encouragement to not play in the safe non-commital way you did last game, even if that's just your playstyle.

I advise not jumping down someone's throat just because you don't like their playstyle. We're here to play a game on the internet, let's be nice.

I don't see scum opening the game this way, though?

What? You don't seem them opening the game that way because why?

The voting someone and immediately picking a fight with them because of not liking their playstyle. Does them no favors and is more likely to make enemies, no real point to it. I know he said the vote was RVS after so the point isn't as strong but it's there.

[catboi]

syugar seems like obvious town though, so that's a start. Bringing the jolt this game needed.

[catboi]

The voting someone and immediately picking a fight with them because of not liking their playstyle. Does them no favors and is more likely to make enemies, no real point to it. I know he said the vote was RVS after so the point isn't as strong but it's there.

Shrug

If you give their scum game zero credit whatsoever, sure

They seem to be new so why not

Those types of playstyle pushes are easier to sustain as scum > town because the reasons don't actually have to map on to things happening in the gamestate

I mean sure but it's a page 2 read, I'm hardly committed to it long term, just an early gut feeling. I don't even view it as a serious push. New reads will come with new information.

@syu, how strong should reads be on page 3?

Usually not very, but I see two people that I want to lynch already.

Cool, who?

@catboi, really? This is screaming playstyle, not anything to do with a desire to solve.

It can be faked but in general I tend to townread early aggression unless it feels like someone is making arguments that are complete nonsense. I'd probably have to check their meta to do so but they don't have any here, so meh. Rolling with it right now!

[catboi]

Actually have time to focus my attention on this game now.


VOTE: cat.jpeg


I think she's playing it a bit safe so far.

[catboi]

Ash is a little...weak so far? the syugar vote was lazy.

Goldfish's early posts are, on reflection, entirely null. checked her other game and she is kind of awkward in terms of posting style. Other game was towny early, didn't get to that here but hasn't really had the chance to. Jumble is...no idea.

syugar seems like obvious town though, so that's a start. Bringing the jolt this game needed.

Hahaha. I try to act reserved at the start, but I am a bit of a bull in the china shop.

@catboi, it's exactly posts like this that I think you think are town but are totally nai to me: scum can easily fake aggression, in fact goldfish mentioned being more 'aggresive' as s scum, which I've found is true for myself too. Coming in, picking a few fights, filling up the thread and pushing through a town elim can almost always be town as well as scum, but not 'obv town'. There are some tells that I often see in 'wrong town' (t02's back and forth with me in the last game was a good example: they were so wrong and /adamantly/ wrong it had to come from town), but none of this has felt like that.

Is there any phrase/post that did stand out like that to you?

The post you quoted is just talking about their style, not doing anything. You could

maybe

point it as being slightly suspicious in that it's buddying me with a bit of self-meta, but eh. On a reread I'm not actually sure the posts are as incredibly towny as I initially thought, the votes were jokey, there was some analysis but not a ton.

I'm sad noone has asked me who I was previously but am now not town reading. Or guessed.

I'll be honest, I didn't actually pick up on what you meant by that statement until I was reading your ISO just now and went back to look for it. I'm not sure it would have interested me at the time, I tend to assume if someone is keeping a read to themselves they don't want to talk about it more.

...was the townread that you lost on goodmorning?

[catboi]

Actually have time to focus my attention on this game now.


VOTE: cat.jpeg


I think she's playing it a bit safe so far.

I was just being happy seeing I was the only one not voting or being voted, why you gotta ruin it like that?
I feel like a lot of the votes right now are unjustified and all over the place.

syugar seems like obvious town though, so that's a start. Bringing the jolt this game needed.

I wanted to respond to this saying I strongly disagreed with them being obvious town but I see its already been resolved, kinda sucks rarely being active at the same time as others. But in reference to me playing too safe, a lot of the questions/accusations I have are said by someone else before I can answer. Also I still dont have any clear scumreads rn.

It

is

true that a lot of the votes are unjustified and all over the place, but that's kind of the nature of early day 1 in forum mafia, no one knows anything and most stuff is unjustified. As time goes on the accusations will get more substantial. I looked at your other game - it seems like most of your experience is with chat mafia?

1. If you disagree with syugar being obvious town, do you not scumread them?
2. If you don't have any clear scumreads, do you have any townreads?

[catboi]

I think I need to read some ISO's but right now tentative TRs on

Goldfish

, Goodmorning, and

Notajumble

(though i would like them to post some more)

Serves me right for posting before reading everything. Can you explain the bolded? Those are some surprising choices.

[catboi]

Huh, it was ash, and their weird vote made me rethink but in hindsight I don't think it's that scummy. Maybe I should've explained more, but I find it interesting to see if other people can interpret others' responses/if they'd seen something 'scummy'.

I'm not tr-ing GM yet, which is weird, as they were lock town by page two last time.

Ah, I had been

hoping

what I saw was the same thing you had seen. If that had been the case I'd have lock-towned you for it immediately. My own reading of ash's posts didn't leave much of an impression.

I would agree, it feels like this game is still in RVS

It essentially is still in RVS - there's no particularly defined length for RVS in terms of pages or time, it's just when the game starts to get more substantial. We're trying to break free but we have yet to hit escape velocity, I think.

I think I need to read some ISO's but right now tentative TRs on Goldfish, Goodmorning, and Notajumble (though i would like them to post some more)

to elaborate, Goldfish seems town to me due to how little she has posted, as town and mafia she usually posts a lot so its odd in general she isnt posting as much but I do feel its a town thing because as mafia she would probably be trying control the game a bit more and subtly buddying people.

goodmorning combatively pointing out how being combative isnt a town tell seems townie though might just be a play. Also something about their wallposting feels towny

With NotAJumble honestly i just have a vague town vibe so far.

So I know this isnt very solid but oh well.

Okay, I'm going stop doing this and actually read fully before I respond anymore, lmao.

The reasoning on goldfish makes a lot of sense based on familiarity. I'm not really sure about the other two but I lean toward believing that you believe this, because it doesn't feel like something you'd make up.

---

139 from goldfish reads towny but 135 is waffly, might be town-indicative if she's telling the truth about playing aggressively as scum but I'd have to check.

UNVOTE:

I think cat.jpeg is pretty townie. I very slightly have a good gut feeling about Bella. We're making progress.

[catboi]

The beetlejuice tell is not a thing, but.......... then the OMGUS??? And those were the only 4 things deemed relevant for discussion??????

@catboi: I guess we have ~philosophical differences~ then. Kind of a boring answer to that but that's life. It is interesting to see you admit that you're trying (or did try? Unclear to me how much of an ongoing thing this is going to be for you in this game yet?) to project helpfulness, and I think that's another thing I'm going to have to sit with for a bit.

@syugar: RE: 80:
1. You literally quoted, in the same post, catboi admitting that I was at least correct that the helpfulness/friendliness was at least partially manufactured, so clearly my read did have some actual substance to it.
2. Speaking of actual substance, how much of that do you actually expect to see in literally post 21?
3. Are you saying that your feelings are, in fact, facts? Because I can definitely tell you that's not how that works.
4. Consider this me defending your pushback, which is clearly based on

lies and slander.

I did not like this post, in particular the bolded. The pushback on syugar feels a bit like experienced scum getting their tail in a twist over being fosed for what they feel are "bad" reasons. The stacking buzzword-y "tells" against syugar felt not very genuine at all.

VOTE: goodmorning

[catboi]

My issue was I didn't like syugars posting, then I didn't like GM's response, then I didn't like how catboi called syugars posting town! I'm liking catbois progression much more.

I think in particular w/r/t syugar I've seen other players take that kind of aggressive approach where they seem to fos a lot of people on entry and gotten wary of it because of how wide their suspicion seemed to be, but the player ended up being town anyway. Just think stylistically the scattered approach is more likely to be town where scum faking aggression take a narrow-tunnel approach


If I assemble my vague townish feelings together, I have Cat.Jpeg (feel very good about this one), goldfish, bella, and syugar. It's possible I'm wrong on one of these because it's earrly, but if it

is

true it would mean all the scum would be in GM, Ash, T02, and jumble. Which feels...plausible?

[catboi]

Having a not great day for reasons unrelated to this game, will try to catch up in a bit

[catboi]

Meant to say this in my previous post but I have a decent TR on Numbers atm. Most posts seem to be looking at the game from a Town perspective.

This I find

puzzling

because Numbers had 6 posts and most of that weren't particularly AI to me. I suppose this is partly influenced by having a little bit of knowledge of jumble: he has...confidence issues, to put it mildly, and I think that'd be true regardless of alignment.

@catboi:
A. It is absolutely not still RVS.
B. if someone makes a bad argument to FoS you, an argument that feels, let's say, deceptive... you expect a town player to ignore it and not point out that deceptive behavior, despite the fact that deceptive behavior is sometimes a scumtell?

A. Well, not now it isn't but the way the votes were being made it felt like that at the time, the comment was valid. I think it is what it is and this isn't important to discuss.

B. I believe that you believe it's a bad argument. But let's review what was said here: syugar said your read is thin and looks fake, and this is shown because you aren't even interested in defending it. your rebuttal is that:

- I was trying to project a certain image so your read had substance to it (possibly, but how I feel now is how I felt at the time: that type of early game read ought to be trivial for a reasonably experienced player to fake, so i don't think much of it at all)
- getting annoyed at the ask for "actual substance" when it was "literally post 21" - to me these reads like getting overly annoyed at a light accusation which tends to come more from scum in my experience.
- your feelings are not facts (don't even think this is important)
- accusing syugar of "lies and slander" for saying your read seems fake, which is a pretty harsh accusation to make and again feels way more intense a response than it needs to be, because it's attributing ill intent to the actions of someone who could just as easily be making a mistake in reading you

[catboi]

I don't think the read on me is against the consensus. I haven't been very active and lurkers SHOULD be scumread.

What's up? You feel very muted this game. I was expecting a little more passion from you.

[catboi]

(the 'oh and I almost could've town locked you but you are.improving' set of posts gave me weird p.u.a. vibes (lol),)

oh god don't put that on me i wasn't trying to be that way, eww

i had just been kind of...hopeful that i might've mindmelded with someone so early in the game? which doesn't happen that often but it would have been cool and fun. That's all.

[catboi]

I guess, moving my vote on from someone who isn't even lurking on, I'm just going onto my null reads. VOTE: Cat.jpg While I dont think youre playing it safe, I feel like a lot of your posts are more akin to seeing what other people say over your own thoughts at the given moment.

Can you show examples of where you believe they're doing this?

[catboi]

@catboi, I did mean it lightheartedly. Probably funnier in my head, but it was a quick way to describe the feeling. Sorry if it bothered you.

I just reflexively recoil in horror at the descriptor, it's all good though

[catboi]

Reads, since I asked, on a spectrum from most Town to least (gaps indicate gaps in level of seriousness):

syugar

Numbers

Bella
(1/2 gap)
Goldfish
T02
Cat

Ash

catboi

Feel free to ask about any of these.

If I'm your strongest scum read you should probably be putting words to that.

[catboi]

VOTE: T02 E-2.

There, that should bring some discussion in.

1. what discussion were you hoping to bring in with this?

2. I asked you a question in 189 that I'd appreciate getting an answer on

[catboi]

It's like half vibes from back in the IC days, but the other half is this:
23 - I like the testing of the waters with the question about making assumptions. I would have liked it more if he dug in further RE: if our responses made him feel any kind of reads, but still.
33 - I also like the reaction to the T02 vote. It was a very newbTown way of looking at it (what the heck is this?) - Scum there I think would have either ignored the vote completely or tried to stir up trouble by asking for more details.
73 - points out that voting a slot that's not around to see the vote is odd.
So far he's primarily been very inwardly focused, which is NAI at this stage imo. I wouldn't say this is anything close to a lock read, but I do see more Town here than otherwise.

Okay, I'm actually seeing this now.

I don't think being inwardly focused is an alignment tell for numbers really (can pull links if necessary), and getting a strong townread off those posts feels contrived, really. It's possible we just have vastly different ways of looking at the game and you're picking up on things that I'm not but it seems kinda fake to me?

[catboi]

So far cat.jpg and goldfish have been playing how I imagine newbtown would play.

I'm remembering that goodmorning used a obvious react test similar to 40 early in my first game with him so that's a +town.

I think Syugar is town. He's been advancing the game and trying to find inconsistenties which is a big + in my book.

Aspho has been lurking from the beginning and didn't contribute anything to the game.
VOTE: Asphodelus

@Catboi

I've been busy and dealing with some real life stuff atm so I can't put all my mind into the game.

That's understandable. I'd like to see a little more from you but understand real life comes first, no pressure right now.

[catboi]

Questions for the group: did the catjoeg/goldfish chat look sus to anyone else? Why?
Is catboi pocketing me?
To all who played in our last newbie: who's different? Who's the same? Does that mean anything?
Is anyone scum reading syugar?

- Didn't look that way to me, looked like 2 people who are familiar with one another talking.
- Yes, absolutely (I don't actually aim to conssiously pocket people as scum, but that's not a discussion for the scope of this game)
-no answer as I was not in that game
- I am not scum reading syugar

[catboi]

Catboi do you still townlean t02? also you seem to avoid being aggressive in newbie games because 'it's prone to be misinterpreted' but you have townread t02 and Syugar (89, 90, 96) for being aggressive why? (with syugar u said in 110 the early aggressive posts may not have actually been that townie but in 147 you went back to saying it was)

I think very slightly but it's obviously weaker than at the start given his diminished presence in the game. The way he admitted to it and said he should be suspected felt vaguely town as I think scum tend to make excuses why people

shouldn't

scumread them. I wouldn't be stunned if he flipped mafia, really, but as of right now I probably wouldn't push for his elimination. How I conduct myself and how I choose to read how others conduct themselves are two different things. I think by virtue of having the SE tag, playing too aggressively might make me come off as intimidating and I want to give new players space to find their own voices rather than me dominating the discussion thread. However, a new player who comes in and chooses to scumhunt aggressively is still very town to me.

[catboi]

Cat.Jpeg
syugar, bella
goldfish
T02
Ash, Jumble
goodmorning


Would be very surprised if cat.jpeg was mafia at this point. jumble/ash I'm treating as essentially null, but jumble probably isn't mafia if goodmorning is.

[catboi]

B. You missed the part where the rebuttal rebuts the "not interested in defending" point entirely, but that's more of a side point. The part about feelings was to address the "calling it ymmv means you're not interested in defending it" point, which was obviously incorrect on its face.

"Getting overly annoyed" - who are you to decide what qualifies as "overly annoyed" coming from me?

RE: trivial - it's my read on you, what you think of the initial point isn't really what I was looking for at that point or this. Finally, "lies and slander" - you know there's a reason I italicized that, right? Remember that my account is 10 years old and ~theorize~ about what internet era I might have grown up in.

Yes, people can be wrong, which is what I now think happened here. But if you don't think it's important for Town to point out when people might be deceptively wrong, then your perspective on the game is not one that I will ever understand.

I mean, that's the game of mafia, isn't it? You posted a reaction and I have to judge whether it's genuine or not. If you're town than I'm misjudging you right now. Such is the nature of day 1. If the lies and slander was meant to be a futurama ref, I have to admit you whooshed me with that one.

[catboi]

@goodmorning

I shared my reads on everyone except catboi and jumble
Catboi because I can't get any read on him yet and Jumble because I forgot they existed but now that I remember they are top 2 on my scumlist alongside Aspho because of lurking.

Why can't you get a read on me? I feel like I've posted a fairly decent amount of content to be readable.

Would be very surprised if cat.jpeg was mafia at this point.

Very surprised? Why?

I think their play has just been incredibly earnest and generally fits the model of nebie-town perfectly. I think they're the townies in the game.

That's some of the laziest read justification I think I've ever seen. Nobody has done anything scummier than just not post enough?

I consider lurking to be very scummy and unless someone is exceptionally scummy in other ways we should hang a lurker day 1. Its not lazy justification this is how I play.

Sometimes POE reads are valid if everyone active is towntelling, although I don't think we're at that mark yet. Flipping someone who hasn't posted enough to be readable isn't the worst thing to do in a 9 player game if you're short for other options.

[catboi]

I don't think Ash's lack of activity is alignment indicative, unfortunately. I do think she could be scum as some of the votes she made while she was active in the game were extremely puzzling to me.

[catboi]

Why can't you get a read on me? I feel like I've posted a fairly decent amount of content to be readable.

You've been generating discussion which is a big + in my book and I would have had you as a townread but you've had way too many posts arguing meta with goodmorning and it feels like bloating so I don't know where to put you yet.

We haven't actually been arguing meta at all but I don't blame you for not being able to follow it.

[catboi]

Didn't realize how close we were to deadline. If I had to choose

right this instant

I'd vote asphodelus's slot over T02 but hopefully the replacement can give us a little more.

[catboi]

Fwiw I still think Asphodel's posts show inability to produce rather than lack of time

These sub hell games are lame af though

Yeah, it sucks unfortunately. They're more common in the newbie queue because people often decide they don't have the time or aren't into the game. It wasn't so bad but the site is kind of slow now which means getting replacements is harder.

Didn't realize how close we were to deadline. If I had to choose

right this instant

I'd vote asphodelus's slot over T02 but hopefully the replacement can give us a little more.

I share the same sentiment. Is it possible or likely to get a day 1 extension to help read these slots. I dont really want to vote for one without allowing the replacement to really say anything.

Deadline extensions for replacements are usually standard, yeah - I don't think we'll have the day end with 2 effectively empty slots in the game.

I think a lot of the game feels fragmented for this reason - T02 and Numbers are each almost a party of one, and Cat and Goldfish feel like a party of two, plus the limited interaction from Ash, so really there are only 4 slots interacting with other slots regularly.

I think this comment is good and like its from a town perspective, or well emulating a town perspective, would like peoples thoughts.

I'm not sure that comment says anything about goodmorning's alignment. It's describing what's going on in the game but isn't really drawing anything from it, it could be said by anyone.

I should note, though, that I am hardly

confident

in goodmorning being scum - although I'm voting her and she's at the bottom of my reads i just find her

suspicious

so far. It's entirely possible we're both town and just not getting each other's play for whatever reason, I don't have enough information to make a call one way or the other.

[catboi]

Just finished reading the game, I don't have much to say(still horrible at reading, it's my 5th game overall).

Wait, like, nothing at all?

[catboi]

Just finished reading the game, I don't have much to say(still horrible at reading, it's my 5th game overall).

Wait, like, nothing at all?

I have a small thing, but I don't know if it's scum related or not and it was mentioned already: T02 thinking of himself

Like he just did that same thing in post #269

What do you mean by that, exactly, "thinking of himself"?

[catboi]

I see. Do you think the being excessively focused on himself is potentially scummy?


What do you think about my suspicion of goodmorning? Or syugar's suspicion of Asphodelus?

[catboi]

I feel like we replaced Jumble with a new model with upgraded firmware. My heart wants to say this is town although I can't actually claim his posting has been particularly telling.


UNVOTE:


I...thought about it a bit, and I don't think GM is the play today. Right now I'd vote for either Ash or Goldfish, whose content was less inspiring on a reread than I remembered. Don't want to go for anyone else.

[catboi]

I don't think it is, no. I'm more inclined to believe that degree of reaction (which is what "overly reacting" corresponds to, rather than "genuineness", imo) is more personality indicative than alignment indicative. There are some people who react more strongly as one alignment over the other, but it's definitely not universal. Now, genuineness and fakeness do more often correspond to alignment, and some people do fake reactions, but I don't think people often fake degrees of reaction.

To the other question: No, I'm simply of the internet generation that will add flourishes and CAPS and ~wiggly bits~ to indicate a point that is not, perhaps, 100% serious. I didn't literally mean that he was intentionally lying and slandering, just that I didn't like his points and they didn't feel good to me. The timing of game launch was not great for me so I was trying to force myself to have fun.

Oh, eh. Didn't pick up on the sarcasm. And as for judgment of your reaction, not sure we're going to go anywhere with this at this point.

I would disagree (again) (shock/horror). Typically better to flip someone who has some level of association with others and hope the lurkers get replaced imo. Fipping a lurker is info free.

voting someone because you believe you'll get "information" from it doesn't help a whole lot when that person flips town.

It's very interesting to me that nobody else, not even catboi who one might logically expect to follow up, has mentioned this.

I'll be honest: I'm not particularly interested in haranguing you for justification for your scumread of me. If you're going to be tight-lipped about it I'm just going to move on.

[catboi]

My heart wants to say this is town although I can't actually claim his posting has been particularly telling.

I'd say he's more likely to be town than maf but I can easily see newb maf playing the way he's doing.

more or less agreed, alignment is more or less a guessing game there but but i lean town on probability

---

I don't know about you and GM since I don't know much abiout either of ATM. I don't see any suspicioun between asphodel/syugar
Also, what's this ISO option on posts?

The ISO option stands for Isolation, if you click it it will show you only the posts by that user in the topic


These were the posts about Asphodelus by syugar:

Oh my gosh, nevermind.

VOTE: Asphodelus

The posts are way too self-conscious and awkward. Looks like an inability to produce content.

viewtopic.php?t=89112&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Tell me this isn't polarized from Aspho, I think I'm good here

Fwiw I still think Asphodel's posts show inability to produce rather than lack of time

These sub hell games are lame af though

[catboi]

Can someone talk me through why they are tr-ing catjpeg?
I could actually go for GM. Last game they were so in step with me, but I just can't see that.

It worries me that settling for an elim on the ash/goldfish slots just don't give us any info.

with cat.jpeg, the way they generated in 120 felt very believable to me, and they way they've been going about questioning people just screams "newbie town legitimately trying to scumhunt". I don't have any reason to believe they aren't acting completely in earnest.

as to eliminating a non-posting slot: this game is SUFFOCATING from inactivity. At this point in time, eliminating someone

who is actually playing the game

for "information" is one of the most anti-town things imaginable. I know we'll be getting replacements and all but i would rather keep around anyone who is at least making some level of contribution

...why? Coming in with "I need to read", following up with "I have no reads but I did notice (thing everyone else said)" and then "I need to reread" doesn't exactly give my heart the warm fuzzies. I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt what with my TR on Numbers but that is Not Great.

I don't know, I'm just inherently biased to players who give off the air of "I have no idea what I'm doing", I guess

I'll be honest: I'm not particularly interested in haranguing you for justification for your scumread of me. If you're going to be tight-lipped about it I'm just going to move on.

I would like to know why. Out of curiosity and to see if its justified. Catboi idk why you are so apathetic to this, i know some people dont question scumreads on themselves because it can make them seem overly defensive and nervous but it cant be good for town for GM to have what seems like a strong scumread but not explain it. They should want to convince other people and get you voted out.

This is a bit difficult to answer, I guess. Particular to this game, I just don't find it that important for goodmorning to explain her read on me. If I were a wagon, it might be a different story. As it is, I have a hard time telling when someone is pushing me for genuine reasons and when they are making it up. I'd rather see GM talk about other players to get a read on her. My assumption was that if she was choosing to be tight-lipped, no amount of me hounding her was going to get her to actually explain her read, so it'd be a waste of time.


I had thought last night there might be a reason goodmorning is town but I don't think it's valid anymore, after reflecting on it. still probably somewhere in null-scum territory, but eh.

[catboi]

As much as I don't really want to talk case today, I'll do a very basic outline, because I'm done quotewalling for the moment.

1. Tone. I've already discussed this to death; I don't like the fake friendliness, I don't believe it, and I don't know why we're still getting it.

2. Vote progression. I've mentioned this too, RE: RVS. After that we get a vote and unvote on Cat, both for reasons that seem fairly lackluster (especially the unvote, which to me reads more "I got bored of my vote being here" than "this readslist comes from town because you seem to ~believe~ what you say", particularly considering that in his own playstyle believability is apparently not highly considered). After that, just the vote and unvote on me, which were relatively expected.

3. The argument about That Post. I m already getting tired of writing this so I'll just suggest looking at where he picked it up (after syugar dropped it) (not incredibly AI but mildly. I don't love when people have a tendency to grab other people's abandoned arguments rather than coming up with their own, but mainly only when it becomes a pattern) and where he dropped the argument on each point. Which points were emphasized? Which points were kept until the ultimate drop? Do they make sense to you, the individual reading this, or would you have chosen to emphasize something else (i.e., not theory)? Do you feel like this is AI? (Please do not answer these questions, they are rhetorical.)

4. An extension of the above. Just to say that it's not only in the That Post discussion; I'm often confused by the things he picks out for further discussion/questioning, a fair quantity of which seem to be more theory related than one might want to see.

5. I do actually like his attempts to draw something out of Tidus, even if I'm not sure about the townread coming out of nothing in particular. They seem more actually curious and interested in the game than a lot of the previous stuff. Not great argumentation to end on a hedge, but eh, it's true.

The end (for now)!

I'm going to respond to this in maybe the most annoying fashion possible: why does any of this make me mafia, and not just someone whose playstyle you don't understand?

[catboi]

@Catboi

I agree with point 1. I think maf has more to gain by being friendly than town in newbie games because many newbies are more likely to trust you over an agressive townie.

I dunno, if you both don't like it it just makes me want to be nicer~

[catboi]

No feels on Tidus yet. Have read the posts, nothing coming to me

@Tidus of the X: Off topic, but what gameFAQs boards do you use? Back when I was on GameFAQs I used Random Insanity quite a lot. Good times. Gotta be like 13 years ago though.

I posted on LUE >_>

kind of funny how infamous it was 20 years ago and how

quaint

it seems now.

(I also played a mafia game back on CE back when I first started out. I drew mafia, had no idea what to say, made it to f7 somehow but then the whole team got outed)

[catboi]

also watch it with the L word, please

[catboi]

No feels on Tidus yet. Have read the posts, nothing coming to me

@Tidus of the X: Off topic, but what gameFAQs boards do you use? Back when I was on GameFAQs I used Random Insanity quite a lot. Good times. Gotta be like 13 years ago though.

I posted on LUE >_>

kind of funny how infamous it was 20 years ago and how

quaint

it seems now.

(I also played a mafia game back on CE back when I first started out. I drew mafia, had no idea what to say, made it to f7 somehow but then the whole team got outed)

reg? You typing so weird

jfc who the hell are you

[catboi]

I think cat.jpeg is pretty townie. I very slightly have a good gut feeling about Bella. We're making progress.

ah sigh. I like the fish but I think cat.jpeg has been looking for allies rather than looking for alignments.

I'm going to have to put a [citation needed] on this one fella

[catboi]

ahahah in this thread I actally cant say but...

Oh wait, were you someone from EM? (you don't have to say who, just yes/no). If so, I

think

I know who you are.

Ah, I thought it was IC not SE, dunno why I switched those in my head.

There used to be an IC ("Inexperience Challenged") category for players in newbie games but they did away with it a few years ago due to difficulty in getting it to fill.

[catboi]

okay, hahahaha

1. i'm shocked you're still playing mafia and on ms no less
2. i have almost definitely been underestimating your range to this point

but, uh, good to see you again!

[catboi]

okay, hahahaha

1. i'm shocked you're still playing mafia and on ms no less
2. i have almost definitely been underestimating your range to this point

but, uh, good to see you again!

I am in therapy

Hope it's going well for you!

syugar is being assertive at the expense of charisma, which is why i kinda townbinned them. do you think that falls comfortably within syugar's scumrange ?

I can't really say for sure because there's a lot of assumptions that would require but as he says it's more or less a personality trait and his experience level is significantly higher than I had been assuming

NAJON had some really questionable townreads on them and did that thing where they were like "I'm trying something here" then never followed through (bad tell because in my experience NAJON doesn't really like mafia a lot of the time; but it's still a sign of greater cognitive load than intended).

Tidus' opening is looking for reasons to scumread a slot but I see no signs that tidus has convinced themselves of their read.

I guess I should probably just vote tidus but I feel so mean.

Agree with the townreads on jumble being questionable, don't think the statements are at all a sign of cogntive load though

Tidus...doesn't seem to be looking for reasons to scumread anyone? He's not doing much of anything, really.


I can't tell if I'm pre-biased against you too much but...I'm not jiving with a lot of your reads.

[catboi]

I didnt have a lot to base stuff off but the wallposting after at the start catboi said wallposting gets scumread I thought was townie because why would scum want to do that.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that wallposters get scumread. I was saying that they drift away from wallposting because they find people tend to ignore posts that are too long. Sucks but it happens.

(I again though feel like this is a really towny thought from .jpeg?)

My top elim choices atm are Tidus because he hasn't contributed anything and doesn't seem like he wants to and either

goodmorning or catboi because if either of them flips red it would clear the other.

This is not great reasoning to decide an elim in general, unless you think there is a very high probability there is scum between us.

(also I think if I drew an experienced partner in a newbie game I might be willing to distance on day 1, although that's neither here nor there)

T02 is probably threadspewed town in any case, these slots that are "likely to contain scum" have voted him or singled him out for being self-involved, nobody else has been laser-targeted as such for a lack of content

I think gm, catboi and bella have valid reasons for singling me out among the low activity people. My first game was with gm and bella and I was very active and agressive almost from start to finish all while being a doctor. In my second game, catboi moderated and I was just as active and agressive. When you compare those two games to the first half of this one, if I was in their place I would find it strange too.

Shhh, that game's not over yet so you can't talk about it. When it's done we can discuss what went on there.

VOTE: catjpeg

I have tried really hard to see your posts coming from town and I just can't. Why would want to eliminate slots generating content? Like...I think catboi said how anti town that was. I don't think we gets tons of 'help' elim-ing just one of catboi and GM, just based on them cross scum reading each other, it feels a bit like lining up Lims to buy into that way or thinking. (Also can we be aware of the outdated term)

You aren't trying to sort me either. Just...nah.

?_?

Having a disagreeable idea does not make cat.jpeg scum.

[catboi]

I think cat.jpeg is pretty townie. I very slightly have a good gut feeling about Bella. We're making progress.

ah sigh. I like the fish but I think cat.jpeg has been looking for allies rather than looking for alignments.

VOTE: cat.jpeg quite comfortable going here. I am a little nervous that I'm likely to be a default elim, probably largely based on my pred being busy irl, which is like fine. Just please keep a counterwagon going, and please do not hammer me until I've had a chance to check in.

So, again: maybe you're just seeing things that I am not but I don't really get how you're scumreading cat.jpeg here?


VOTE: the worst

[catboi]

I'm not remotely convinced Tidus is mafia but might vote there for the sake of game health at this point.


(I am in a not great headspace today so don't want to read up/respond in full - hopefully tomorrow will be better)

[catboi]

I am not gonna be able to read up tonight, and getting sleepy.

Liking Bella for town, and I think that cat might be town for a really bad reason, but bad reasons tend to stick in my head lol

you're going to need to specify whether you mean the boi or the .jpeg this game

[catboi]

My issue was I didn't like syugars posting, then I didn't like GM's response, then I didn't like how catboi called syugars posting town! I'm liking catbois progression much more.

I think in particular w/r/t syugar I've seen other players take that kind of aggressive approach where they seem to fos a lot of people on entry and gotten wary of it because of how wide their suspicion seemed to be, but the player ended up being town anyway. Just think stylistically the scattered approach is more likely to be town where scum faking aggression take a narrow-tunnel approach


If I assemble my vague townish feelings together, I have Cat.Jpeg (feel very good about this one), goldfish, bella, and syugar. It's possible I'm wrong on one of these because it's earrly, but if it

is

true it would mean all the scum would be in GM, Ash, T02, and jumble. Which feels...plausible?

Catboi, what moved TO2 into your scum pile, given you seemed to town read their entrance?

An initial ping doesn't mean I won't consider someone for elimination, and at any rate this was me proposing a hypothetical POE, not any explicit scumreads.

[catboi]

Just know that you probably won't get very much information if I am eliminated, if we eliminate T02 or Cat.jpeg, even if whichever one is eliminated isn't scum, we get some information out of it due to their reads, and I would say there may be a good chance of either of them being scum

Information out of the flip, you know, like discrediting townreads if they flip mafia and strengthening them if they flip town

If you're not going to attempt to make reads this game it's going to be very difficult for us to make any sort of progress at all.

[catboi]

Still not really in the space to read up and digest in full. Tidus feels mainly like he's a player who isn't used to making social reads more than actually being scum and worst's confidence there and lack of nuance to the read is off-putting.

I'll move wherever to secure an elim.

I...thought about it a bit, and I don't think GM is the play today.

@catboi, what makes GM not the play today?

I had mistakenly made an assumption on a read at the time that is no longer valid

as it is I'd have no problem flipping her now but that is less to do with having a confident scumread and more to do with not having patience for how they're acting toward me.

[catboi]

does someone have an idea of what the VC is right now?

[catboi]

I maintain Tidus very likely flips town. I am incredibly suspicious of worst for pushing there and it probably tanks syugar in my estimation as well. Don't think they're scum together but doubt both are town.

I think to some extent flopping around and forcing out a bunch of claims at deadline is anti-town but I can't in good conscience send this through so I'll sit back in protest until we're truly running out of time with no alternative.

[catboi]

I am worried that catboi is TMIing Tidus as town.

you ought to know better by now and it is frankly irritating to be treated this way for defending a read

[catboi]

I maintain Tidus very likely flips town. I am incredibly suspicious of worst for pushing there and it probably tanks syugar in my estimation as well. Don't think they're scum together but doubt both are town.

I think to some extent flopping around and forcing out a bunch of claims at deadline is anti-town but I can't in good conscience send this through so I'll sit back in protest until we're truly running out of time with no alternative.

I don't see what you do

Tidus is even in the thread now and can't answer any of the questions thrown at him aside from his role, idk man

I think what you are seeing is the product of inexperience and not being used to making reads rather than a scum role PM. It is that simple.

I maintain Tidus very likely flips town. I am incredibly suspicious of worst for pushing there and it probably tanks syugar in my estimation as well. Don't think they're scum together but doubt both are town.

I think to some extent flopping around and forcing out a bunch of claims at deadline is anti-town but I can't in good conscience send this through so I'll sit back in protest until we're truly running out of time with no alternative.

Is there a reason that this is applied directly to the worst and syugar, but not to me or Bella who are also voting there or to cat.jpeg or t02 who are willing to hammer?

---

Also, you think that the tidus wagon is bad, and you don't want us to kill there -- but you are not going to present who you want us to kill instead?

Because those two are strongly pushing the belief that Tidus is scum where I see you and Bella as making the vote more out of necessity. I don't find the strong insistence he's scum to be believable and would think (especially in the case of the worst) he'd have more understanding of this type of player in how he reads them rather than simply declaring tidus to just be scum.


I have left my vote elsewhere, I have expressed suspicion of others, I think I make myself sufficiently clear. I don't expect a miraculous turnaround given time remaining. I also lack the wherewithal to construct a compelling case on a scumread - I do not have one. I have vague feelings right now, because it's day 1 and the game hasn't progressed in a way where I have a sufficiently confident scumread.

[catboi]

I am in a foul mood. I am coming off an offsite game a few days ago where I lost and barely anyone spoke to me like I was in the game at all or even a human being. I am persistently treated this way in games. I am very sick of it. You're not helping me right now, Luke.

[catboi]

I'll come after you Day 2.

That being said if I'm wrong and Tidus is scum, great, things are looking good and we probably win anyway, it's not a big deal.

[catboi]

After seeing Tidus freeze and answer nothing I dont understand catbois rationale for townreading him

"I think hes the type of player to make social reads" looking back on it wtf does that even mean o_o

Seriously do not understand the inertia here in general

Worst was frikin right if Tidus was a villager he'd already be dead Im sorry I ever fosed you bby

I think it's

very

simple to understand - they're a player who is used to the type of game where power roles do most of the work and so when placed in a MS-styled game where dayplay is emphasized they wind up flopping around like a fish and not doing much. I do not think this is a difficult archetype of player to comprehend. It is frustrating to deal with and maybe even a problem as the game winds on but these type of players tend to gt executed very frequently and flip town a good majority of the time.

[catboi]

I maintain Tidus very likely flips town. I am incredibly suspicious of worst for pushing there and it probably tanks syugar in my estimation as well. Don't think they're scum together but doubt both are town.

I think to some extent flopping around and forcing out a bunch of claims at deadline is anti-town but I can't in good conscience send this through so I'll sit back in protest until we're truly running out of time with no alternative.

When was the last time you saw a TOWNIE freeze up like this?

Eh, seen it before but can't necessarily say off the top of my head.

The setup is very swingy and a d1 scum lynch increases the power of each PR to a crazy degree so u wouldnt want to not take the vote here, more likely it gets stalled like this so that head wheels r spun and vote is change at the last second narmean???...

Theres no towncase for Tidus possible, sucks if we are wrong but if we didn't vote Tidus today the chance he is not lynched d2 is very low regardless, he isn't playing but to prod dodge

This is probably the best reason imaginable to vote Tidus given it's unlikely he'll townclear himself in the time given and can't necessarily be relied upon to actually scumhunt but it still feels bad to me.

[catboi]

I am worried that catboi is TMIing Tidus as town.

you ought to know better by now and it is frankly irritating to be treated this way for defending a read

I am not suspicious of you "defending a read." You are not pushing for a change of course, you are just shading the people who scum read him.

I don't think that it makes sense for you to be so sure that tidus is town as to result in you scum reading people for thinking he is scum.

I also don't think that this is the way you would play with him if you are partners with him.

Let me try to explain this in as claer terms as I possibly can:

I think that Tidus is more likely than not flipping town.

I think some of the pushes on him are bad and quite likely scum-motivated, in particular the worst, who replaced a scummy slot and has not acted in a way I find towny.

I do not believe I can put together a persuasive case based on the evidence we have right now.

Even if I could, wagons tend to be heavy on inertia and it's hard to get people to move, especially so close to deadline.

I could be wrong about Tidus! (I very frequently am, because I am not very good, but I still have to try). However, in the event Tidus is mafia, I think the game is easy enough that it won't really matter if I look bad based on his flip. My mind is more concerned with contemplating worlds where he flips town and what that means for the game.


Does that make sense? I know I suck at communicating because I rarely get taken seriously but hopefully I explained that in a legible way.

[catboi]

your read seems to be some kind of false syllogism of

tidus is a mechanically-invested player who doesn't do dayplay.
mechanically invested players who don't do dayplay have a rand chance of being town.
therefore tidus is town.

i understand where you're coming from. i think your level of confidence is really strange given you seem to lack a lot of other actionable reads?

I think you're probably scum as of right now, especially given how you're reacting to me. I don't think I could argue that persuasively to most people, certainly not in the time allotted.

[catboi]

I understand that, but I don't know why you think that, like what are the hallmarks of this being a towngame instead of a scumgame, it just feels like we ended up on different sides of a binary crapshoot and I don't understand why you're on your side other than that you intuitively think he is towning due to something indescribable

So it's far from simple for me

Also, not making reads is one thing, but not making reads and then coming out with the "lynch X or Y for more information over me" line is totally different in my eyea

And not making reads is one thing, but not answering a single direct question about said statement when you're reading the thread and just dipping after a claim is another

I don't expect someone to freeze up to questions about things they have already said as town - they have to had believed in what they were saying, which means there must be an explanation as to why. That he has not bothered to reply to theworsts questions and give us that explanation makes it not seem considered at all

That is fair and understandable. Perhaps I'm just too soft at heart right now. But I would be entirely unsurprised if he's just playing not that great. I don't know what to do about it if that is the case.

[catboi]

I thought there was a post I wanted to respond to but couldn't find it. I would just ask that anyone whose impulse is to come at me for "TMI" to consider the possibility that I am simply town who does not think the same way as you do. I find it eminently frustrating to be accused of being scum simply for daring to dispute consensus. I have tried to communicate my thinking although clearly I am terrible at this, but even if that doesn't work just

try

to understand that thinking differently is not a scumtell.


I will move my vote to Tidus before I head to sleep tonight for the sake of securing a majority. I hope that the extra discussion will have proven useful.

[catboi]

I think I usually do better on later days where I have more info available to me, well, we'll see next day if I survive, if not, it might be the replacing screwing with me or the slower pace of this site

:/ Sorry. Would've liked to give you the chance.

VOTE: Tidus

would recommend someone hammer now if they have the opportunity.

[catboi]

I think his frustration at tidus being run up is almost certainly genuine too - I just think it's a great reason to nullread tidus and push elsewhere. And a bad reason to townread Tidus then not do anything while Tidus dies.

oh be quiet

[catboi]

not in the mood to banter much, pick up the pieces tomorrow depending on what the flip is

[catboi]

No deaths is good-ish. Given how stalled out things were yesterday, I was thinking that if no PRs died during the night we'd have people claim to narrow down the pool of suspects. Thoughts? (taking a page from LLD with this strategy)

Assuming it wasn't an intentional no-kill (highly unlikely), leaves the following as possible setups:

Column A & Row 1: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column A & Row 2: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column A & Row 3: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 1: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 2: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 3: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column C & Row 1: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Cop, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 2: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 3: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

[catboi]

Also, newbie 2093 ended, so I can say that Asphodelus replaced out because she wasn't feeling into her games. So I don't think her dropping from this game is necessarily AI, and I'm not sure her being underwhelming compared to her other games is necessarily AI. I still think worst's play from Day 1 is significantly scum-motivated.

[catboi]

because there's confirmed to be no kill it also limits the number of possible setups, if there's a cop or tracker the investigative report is useful information that can narrow things down (or possibly just out a mafia, depending on their target). A doc save is unambiguously clear, a jailkeeper target is unfortunately ambiguous as to whether it was a save or a blocked kill but it at least gives something to discuss. I think at this point though any information is going to be useful given where we are an the amount of replacements and idleness we had to work through on Day 1.

[catboi]

So I actually read back that conversation, and I think that the no kill creates a lose scenario that does not exist in her example given

I asked her what about the possibility of us being in column C, and so the scum team might be able to fake claim a pr during this. Her response was that by doing it popcorn style, it would be too risky for scum - because of the masons possibility.

But that risk is actually gone now. So if we are in column C, that could actually be kinda bad

Mmm, I guess, but in that scenario scum would

have

to claim tracker, can't get away with claiming a guilty on later days, have to give info, and can be evaluated down the line just like anyone else.

[catboi]

VOTE: goodmorning

shrug

[catboi]

btw

chance for another kill block if we dont mass

the extra elim is pertinent here

I think the likelihood is vanishingly small but it depends significantly on the setup

[catboi]

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

You could accelerate it by selfvoting, but I'm not going to unvote because of appeals to emotion

[catboi]

frankly I took worst to be softclaiming a PR which is why I backed off

[catboi]

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

[catboi]

my brain is not at full capacity but I'll try to get to things later today

[catboi]

I'm ashamed I was the driving force behind fucking the game over on d1 and forcing us into this weird situation

For the record I don't remotely think it was your fault, the game stalling out in a weird way because of the replacements hurt it, I don't think the loss of momentum had to do with being wrong on day 1. My brain also crapped out midway and I don't have the capacity to think about things but I'm making an attempt to tough it out and finish what I started.

frankly I took worst to be softclaiming a PR which is why I backed off

When did you see the soft?

I took wanting you to claim first earlier in the phase as some sort of implication on his part

And also, why out it, unless you wanted to push him anyways?

It appears half the lobby saw it anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter, but still

Because, frankly, I don't think I could get anywhere if I wasn't being open about something at least

[catboi]

Personally I'm not confident that we"ll eliminate scum today and if we don't we'll be at lylo tomorrow and pr claims will lose a lot of their power because maf can cc and force a 50/50.

VOTE: goodmorning lets start this popcorn thing by forcing gm to claim.

I haven't noticed any soft claims day 1. Which posts are you guys talking about?

I think every townie should value their survival almost as much as a pr in this format.
I do find worst's behavior weird though so I see where you're coming from.

I'm concerned by what you're doing here this game. In the game I modded you had a lot of passion in how you were trying to scumhunt and I admired that, and this game this game you feel distant and I haven't really seen you attempt to find mafia. I felt badly about how you got treated by the SE's in that game (they were far too condescending, imo), so I wanted to give you space, but we're in day 2 and I'm not really seeing a lot in the way of analysis from you still. You're being very passive. What's going on?

[catboi]

frankly I took worst to be softclaiming a PR which is why I backed off

When did you see the soft?

I took wanting you to claim first earlier in the phase as some sort of implication on his part

Oh, I took that to be him picking up from where he voted me near the end of the day.

You thought he was hinting at some kind of guilty on me, and in response you voted good morning?

I'll be honest I don't even remember him doing that but I stopped paying attention to every post because the tidus elim was a foregone conclusion

I have a poe of catboi, gm, the worst, and t02 and that has too many names in it, especially since i appear to be in multiple people poes, so that means we have too many miselim options in the player list.

I need the townies in that group to come town it up.

Okay so,

let's talk.

I'm pretty sure you've consistently misread me in gamesgoing way way back to when you first played with me. And now KTaNE is over, so we can talk about that - you missed on me badly in that game. mea culpa, I was way too overconfident on you and it probably threw things off, but I have tried to adjust accordingly and give you space this game. And to see you come in and walk right into completely terrible reasoning for suspecting me again on Day 1 - what's up with that? What are you doing here? Have you taken away nothing?

[catboi]

My take away from that game was that town!catboi can and will talk about an uncertain scum read in absolute terms, and that I should anticipate and adjust for that.

I also saw that if you start scum reading me, I should try to talk to you more, and actually ask you questions because you didn't ever say why you thought I was scum (I guess you were waiting for me to ask).

Neither one of those things are applicable to this game.

What do you think I should be seeing here to town read you for?

I will say that I am not really even scum reading you this game. At least nothing like in ktane.

More just, I'm Not Town Reading you. So you are sitting in my poe still

I had been under the impression you had been suspicious of me because of the way I defended Tidus, something that irked me a great deal. If that's no longer the case, okay, although I am wondering what made you drop that read. There's no magic switch I hit to obvtown (and I resent the notion of something like that existing), you being uncertain on me is generally fine, understandable, maybe we can come back to it later when there's been more to discuss.


(also, to be clear, I did think you were scummy on a very gut level, fire was the one I found mostly neutral).

[catboi]

Do you thibk i should I be Town reading you in games where you are a smaller presence?

Sometimes not always but it's absolutely true that I'd have likely tried to influence things more and be more of a presence had I rolled scum in a newbie game becausse my will to win as that alignment is a lot stronger.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

I don't think wagon composition reads are particularly valid in games of this size (works slightly better in larger games) but I probably want to think my vote through a bit more

[catboi]

starting this in the middle of the day phase is very ill-timed

[catboi]

@Catboi

What do you mean?

that it's likely to take a lot of time which we do not have a lot of

but i'm still having trouble focusing right now and providing concrete thoughts

[catboi]

I don't know, we have too many people lapsing into prod range and nothing happening. I don't like rereading but I might try to look at the game with fresh eyes tomorrow if I can actually focus.

[catboi]

I feel like the worst is almost too scummy to be scum though. (sorry for being inactive)

What makes you say that?

[catboi]

VOTE: the worst


sorry if wrong etc

[catboi]

:/

I dropped the hammer because your posts didn't look like what I expected from town on the chopping block. Do you have final thoughts?

[catboi]

oh my god we're getting bailed out by night actions so hard

okay NOW we are mass claiming, without exception, because we need that to figure out what's going on this game

[catboi]

I think both mafs jumping on the Tidus and the worst wagons makes perfect sense. The Tidus vote is very easy to justify because there wasn't much time before the day phase ended and Tidus wasn't doing himself any favors with his half assed engagement with the game. After that, all maf had to do was miselim two townies and there were many good candidates for that, unucky for them we just got an extra day phase.

This the exact flaw with this reasoning though: both wagons were relatively unopposed such that it was unlikely for another wagon to come up. under those circumstances, scum have no need to add to the wagon, they can twiddle their thumbs until time runs out, and town has to vote on it to secure an elimination. Why does mafia have to vote on those eliminations in these circumstances?

(this is also why i generally do not like wagonomics reasoning, it relies on too many arbitrary assumptions)

[catboi]

I'm VT, which I probably gave away multiple times by now with how I've talked about roles. I had foolishly thought goodmorning's overly confident townread on jumble day 1 might have meant they were masons.

[catboi]

The worst was playing in such a way that he was scum, or really unhelpful to town. I've played with him before and expect better.

oh cmon don't shovel dirt on him after he's been misflipped, that's unfair. He was off the mark for a lot of the game but it's not like anyone's done better.

[catboi]

I think at least T02's play this game makes significantly more sense in light of the claim. I need to look at the game again with fresh eyes, hopefully cat.jpeg shows up sonish so we can have some clarity.

[catboi]

My argument isn't bad. In the absence of other proof, voting data is one of the best tools we have to find scum.

but the inverse of you saying that you were confident in both scum being in the list of 4 you presented is that you are confident that the other players are town.

You're completely wrong. If you're not scumreading someone that doesn't mean you're townreading them. This feels really manipulative.

If you are scum with either goodmorning or cat.jpeg, you absolutely need us to not start killing in the order Goodmorning->you->cat.jpeg (which is where I literally am with my reads) and it looked like you were trying to stop that course of action.

Why are saying this as if it was a done deal that gm was getting elim'd today and that I'd be the one to follow?

VOTE: Lukewarm I think you're setting things up for your partner counterclaiming me.

I would urge you to not play too reactively around the idea that someone is likely to scum for scumreading you - maybe he's scum but people can misread you as town as well and I think the idea he's setting up to have a counter claim to you is very much jumping to a conclusion prematurely. Don't be hasty. You have to take your ego out of it, and speaking from experience this is a very hard thing to do.


I'd also quibble with your point on voting data, although doing so would require digging for evidence and might be a little beyond the scope of this game. I'd certainly quibble with the point that mafia by necessity have to be among the voters on both mis-elims.

[catboi]

I think at least T02's play this game makes significantly more sense in light of the claim. I need to look at the game again with fresh eyes, hopefully cat.jpeg shows up sonish so we can have some clarity.

In what way?

He presumably had more information then the rest of us day2, but I don't see any sign of that from the way he played

I mean if he was a PR intentionally muting his play to avoid being nightkilled, it makes sense why I thought he was acting strangely.

[catboi]

@Cat.jpg

If gm is maf then Luke is his partner. If the worst is maf then catboi is.

After rereading ISOs what I said doesn't make as much sense as I thought.
This game is too hard. Everytime I try to solve it my brain fries.

And it looks exactly like what you did yesterday, which was make a claim, and the moment I try to dig into your logic and reads, you immediately walk the claim back.

"Why are these people paired?" -- "Nevermind"

"Why are you excluding Goodmorning from your scum pile?" -- "I'm not doing that"

---

It sure looks like you are just making statements to look like you are trying to solve the game, but you don't actually believe the things that you are saying

luke. unless take gets counterclaimed by exactly cat.jpeg, he's almost certainly town, because everyone else has claimed VT. You need to adjust your worldview.

[catboi]

My argument isn't bad. In the absence of other proof, voting data is one of the best tools we have to find scum.

but the inverse of you saying that you were confident in both scum being in the list of 4 you presented is that you are confident that the other players are town.

You're completely wrong. If you're not scumreading someone that doesn't mean you're townreading them. This feels really manipulative.

That's not a manipulative argument at all. Here are your own exact words:

While we're waiting for gm to answer, I'd like to point out that Bella, Syugar, Luke and Catboi all voted for tidus and worst and

I'm confident both mafs are among those 4

.

Your own words said you believe that "both mafia" are among that group of 4 people. logically, the only possible conclusion is that you believe the two players outside that group of 4 to be town.

[catboi]

Regarding vote count analysis, here's a vote count Lukewarm might recognize:

Spoiler:

Newbie 2061 - Day 1 Final Votecount

Votecount

NorwegianboyEE (5):

Pearofclubs, iN3krO, catboi, Meuh, T3

[HAMMER]

Meuh (1):

marcistar

catboi (1):

Not_Mafia

iN3krO (1):

NorwegianboyEE

Not Voting (1):

Samawoodo

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate a player.

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-04-18 06:00:00)

Majority has been reached and

NorwegianboyEE

has been eliminated! Their role was...

Vanilla Townie

Would you like to guess how many mafia were on that elimination?







the answer was none. marcistar and samawoodo were the mafia. town rushed through an elim late because I got fixated on a bad read. samawoodo got replaced, and the player who replaced him tried to use the argument that "sum had to be on the mis-elim wagon" to push town. Lukewarm replaced into that game in a town slot so he might be understandably wary of such arguments. I also wrongly tunneled him and he tunneled me back, and on the last day I had to scream my head off to not get him to misvote me, good times.

At any rate, this is at least one useful example that shows that relying on arbitrary assumptions about who is on/off wagon can bite you for finding scum. I can probably pull other examples. They're rare but they do happen.

[catboi]

I have an idea of what might be going on but will wait to see.

[catboi]

times like this I wish the site had a feature to ping people in-thread

[catboi]

yeah I had figured it was the 1 pr setup

worried I'm blind spotting certain people but I'll wait until I have time to reread

[catboi]

We are in C2 to directly say it.
Right now i think to2 and catboi are definitely town. Lukewarm I still think is town just went down the wrong track a little. Syugars probably town too. GM and bella looking sus.

Why do you think those people are town?

[catboi]

yeah I had figured it was the 1 pr setup

worried I'm blind spotting certain people but I'll wait until I have time to reread

what u think about all the townreads on me in this game state

not a lot. I'm a little concerned at you pre-emptively suggesting you were a possible jailkeeper target.

[catboi]

bella since you're here can you tell me what your current view of the game is?

[catboi]

Also with the knowledge that maf knew what the setup was since day 2, it makes catboi's mass claim proposal a lot more suspicious.
If the mass claim went through, one of the mafs could have claimed tracker, I die N2 and maf easily gets a miselim D3 and wins.

VOTE: catboi

If I knew that I doubt I'd bring attention to myself in that fashion, but of course you can go wifom etcetc. Simple fact of the matter is I was lost and was hoping for

something

that might help, and from my pov the odds were significant we had

something

that would help us. Maybe it would have been more useful to simply clarify that we were in the solo jailkeeper setup without outing anyone, I don't know.



Anyway, I'm waking up now, I can take the time to read things properly now.

[catboi]

I'm...mildly suspicious of syugar being a jailkeeper target but at the same time I'm not sure how likely he is to be carrying a kill on night 1.

[catboi]

cat.jpeg was, in my initial feeling, the type of player I might typically blindspot for being friendly, and I was a little unnerved by the strength of her townread on me to start the day, as well as her reasoning of the worst being "too scummy to be scum", which didn't really sit right with me

[catboi]

im not even sure why youd find a world where i submitted the kill to be parricularly unbelievable with a tracker in the setup

im not even sure why youd find a world where i submitted the kill to be parricularly unbelievable with a tracker in the setup

nvm no tracker in column c duh

even in those world it's like, do you typically send the more well hidden team member to do the kill? most people don't

[catboi]

cat.jpeg was, in my initial feeling, the type of player I might typically blindspot for being friendly, and I was a little unnerved by the strength of her townread on me to start the day, as well as her reasoning of the worst being "too scummy to be scum", which didn't really sit right with me

shorg

u tell me how unpartnered #676 looks. the amount of followup is minimal but it could just be the state of the thread hmm

Probably not a bus, no, given the state of the game I don't think luke tries for that in those circumstances

[catboi]

initial feeling on rereading cat.jpeg's iso is that there's a lot less analysis than I remembered and the conclusions are tepid



there's probably maybe some merit to looking back at day 2 to see if there was anyone who seemed to be awkwardly townreading syugar if they knew a nightkill on him had been stopped

[catboi]

Im also pretty split right now between the worst and GM but im pretty confident at least one of them is scum. I will iso them tmr and figure out which one is more sus. Also im assuming at this point we arent going to mass claim.

I feel like the worst is almost too scummy to be scum though. (sorry for being inactive)

This sequence + the activity falloff from day 1 is bothersome to me - the read on worst never feels like it jhas a real followthrough, it looks like she was willing to push him until it was clear she wasn't needed to make the wagon go through

[catboi]

Well. I think it's more likely than not that you were a legit NK target, probably syugar as well. I need to revisit goodmorning but

if

we have the team narrowed down, the order doesn't matter nearly as much if you're paranoid of someone.

I also think based on the way cat.jpeg and goldfish interacted, they don't feel like partners either. For what that's worth.

[catboi]

i am a handful of posts into reading goodmorning's iso. this has been hard for me to focus on still.

[catboi]

attempting to reread again.

[catboi]

meh. my gut feeling is to resist the 'easy' conclusion here. I read the latest posts and I'm not sure I'm feeling it

[catboi]

I don't know. struggling to get any read at all from trying to reread GM

feeling...not great about my ability to do anything this game

[catboi]

the scummiest thing,

I guess

, is their response to getting wagoned day 2 but even then I can't tell if that's more a sign of alignment or personality

[catboi]

I dislike being told to dance on command.

[catboi]

probably most confident voting goodmorning right now after finishing reading butI want to actually consider everyone before I just spit out opinions

[catboi]

Will you do it if I say please?

I dunno, I'm obstinate, I'm very bad with lists, any list assembled now would be essentially patched off guesswork and memory, and is likely to actually be detrimental both to being able to actually find mafia and to being able to accurately gauge my alignment. I'll try but I want to look everyone over first (know I've been saying this, it's not really easy for me, but I am trying. If I can't get through by the end of today I'll just press forward)

[catboi]

I'm not actually sure my reads are worth anything at this point.

[catboi]

I have finished my catch up.

VOTE: Tidus

The thing that I like about the ISO comment was a nice ping when I reached that point in the thread, but I did not realize that they literally fell off the face of the thread afterwards, which is definitely not a good look, and makes their in 462 worse.

I also have a worry that would be anti-town to voice currently if we were to start exploring alternative wagons.

What was this about, luke?

[catboi]

I

think

luke is town, mainly based off how he reacted to t02 at the start of today - I think the paranoia toward a PR claim is way more likely to come from town where mafia are going to know t02 is going to end up as confirmed town

[catboi]

Although I don't see the point of calling who I'm jaling. Maf could just do a no kill on purpose and have us elim bella

If it's an intentional no-kill, then we get to eliminate and you call your target again. If you do die, we end up getting a confirmed town. It's not a situation with a downside to it. The alternative has you dying and us left with no clears at all, which is very much un-ideal.

[catboi]

I feel like we should wait for catboi to finish what he is doing before we kill gm here

not sure what I'm doing has a ton of value but we can at least give gm a chance for a defense

[catboi]

Never mind I understand why now.
I'll repeat what I said, i'll jail Bella.

is there a reason you suspect bella

[catboi]

I'm going to give her a reread now, had a townfeeling from one thing she posted but I'm trying to give everyone the once-over

[catboi]

I feel like we should wait for catboi to finish what he is doing before we kill gm here

not sure what I'm doing has a ton of value but we can at least give gm a chance for a defense

You seem to be really down on your solving abilities this game - and I am not quite sure how to interact with it.

I for one have a high opinion of your reads, and am interested in seeing them - I mean our first ever game together you managed to single handedly turn the game direction around to killing the last scum, despite the entire rest of the thread thinking they were confirmed town.

T02 also seemed interested in getting your reads this day phase.

Idk, I only got to that conclusion that game after being woefully wrong for most of that game and getting the feeling something was amiss based on how the nightkills shook out. I had that mechanical info to help me based on the claims. OBut overall my track record in games isn't great, I'm not an analytical thinker and my read rate is nothing special.

but mostly it's just a struggle to draw useful conclusions from reading

this

game in particular with the way it's progressed. I find it hard to form a real tangible basis for a read even now on Day 3.

I don't want this to be a pity party for myself or anything I'm just saying that I am unsure I'll be able to bring any insight to the table

[catboi]

Also, if you have gut suspicion of Bella that nobody shares, keep in mind that you will be the one dying tonight so if your guess is wrong it doesn't really help anyone else. We're left with basically nothing different than the previous day as we're unsure about very many other suspects

I mean, of course, if he's

right

about bella and no one else is, it's the only thing hat can save the game...

But rather than looking at it from a selfish perspective, I'd appreciate it if he could try to quantify that gut feeling in words in some way. I have my own thoughts from what I've been rereading but I'd appreciate talking it over with take.

[catboi]

I do think a clear on cat.jpeg is likely to be valuable if goodmorning is mafia, regardless, as otherwise jpeg is basically always going to be a suspect.

In the event of a town flip...I don't know. I have a hard time seeing Luke teamed with anyone based on interactions he's had with people. gun to my head answer would actually be bella/syugar which feels really silly but I don't have anything better than guessing at this point

[catboi]

why wouldnt u pair either of us with cat though

idk lmao

bella was making a serious push on cat.jpeg that felt unaligned

you pushing cat.jpeg today could be some sort of double-edged bus attempt to look unaligned but I just don't ~feel~ it

[catboi]

i didnt realize u were teaming us, i was thinking smth else

both jks being scum i dont believe youd believe

I mean I'm saying it feels improbable! BUT we are talking in a hypothetical where I have to preflip goodmorning as town to begin with and then try to formulate a team

and either my dayplay reads are wildly off the mark (entirely possible!) or I'm just stuck doing nonsense worldbuilding where the answer is always going to look wrong because goodmorning is mafia

[catboi]

and also never doubt my ability to think stupid things

[catboi]

i didnt realize u were teaming us, i was thinking smth else

both jks being scum i dont believe youd believe

I mean I'm saying it feels improbable! BUT we are talking in a hypothetical where I have to preflip goodmorning as town to begin with and then try to formulate a team

and either my dayplay reads are wildly off the mark (entirely possible!) or I'm just stuck doing nonsense worldbuilding where the answer is always going to look wrong because goodmorning is mafia

what are partner candidates for gm iyo

jpeg, you, bella

are there any reasons these are unlikely ("I am town" is not a useful answer for this exercise)

[catboi]

it's possible I'm just letting myself get buddied too much but meh

at any rate in a world where I'm sum and gm is town I would've already hammered to send it to night because regardless of how it makse me look, getting the elim off is more useful

[catboi]

There's no point in protecting bella, just gives the mafia impunity to kill you while we don't realistically learn anything because bella is never being voted off

Also, if you have gut suspicion of Bella that nobody shares, keep in mind that you will be the one dying tonight so if your guess is wrong it doesn't really help anyone else. We're left with basically nothing different than the previous day as we're unsure about very many other suspects

cat jpeg voting gm is a bit weird for my view of this table but idk whats going on

Do u even read my posts? I scumread bella. I have also been scumreading GM for basically the entire game. For those who townread Bella, why?

For the record I'm fine with being jailed because im either cleared or theres a no-kill. I would prefer Bella but whatever.

See, I can't help it, I just get a gut-town feeling from posts like this

can you explain why you scumread bella, though?

[catboi]

I remember making these points early day 2 and feeling talked out of it.

I've already shared my reads. Now I'm wavering on catjpeg again.

I hate nka but it does throw more Sus on jpeg. I think me (and syugar a little bit) has been the only real push on the slot

Nevermind, you said that she's sus in 925 but there is no progression or explanation whatsoever

I've also said this. I'd much rather do cat today

How do you explain this progression where suddenly your strongest preference is for .jpeg?

[catboi]

bleh, meant to add 937 to those quotes - even if you found the points against cat.jpeg persuasive...I'm not sure why you suddenly have her as your top elim target and no one else?

[catboi]

that is...a really suspicious pop-in

[catboi]

I'd love catjpeg (or anyone) to put a scum case against me.

It occurs to me that catboi has done this weird soft defend for several slots in the game -cat, the worst, tidus, syugar, but I don't know if it means anything, apart from 'buddying'.

I don't think I ever defended worst, I was pushing him as an alternative to tidus even. But for cat and tidus, I just full on towread them at points, simple as that.

You're free to get paranoid of me/cat.jpeg, but if that's the team I don't

start the day

by paranoia-ing a read onto cat and chip away at your townread, only to 180 that read later on when there's actual pressure on jpeg. that is just strategically foolish and provides no benefit whatsoever.

[catboi]

That's fine, but it's the little words that matter. You said is 'suddenly' had this read on catjpeg, but it's not new at all - words like that feel very scummy to me. You call it 'suspicious' but I've just shown to what my progression is and you haven't really responded, just defended yourself.

I don't know that I actually have a comment, lol - I appreciate the clarity? I think it generally makes sense and is plausible you're town just getting paranoid here.

[catboi]

I don't know. struggling to get any read at all from trying to reread GM

feeling...not great about my ability to do anything this game

the scummiest thing,

I guess

, is their response to getting wagoned day 2 but even then I can't tell if that's more a sign of alignment or personality

probably most confident voting goodmorning right now after finishing reading butI want to actually consider everyone before I just spit out opinions

@catboi, what did you see in your reread that shifted you from struggling to get any read to most confident in voting goodmorning here?

It was like...I didn't get anything townie from reading, there was some slightly scummy stuff at the end of the ISO, I still had doubts on whether cat.jpeg was scum, other people had some semblance of mechanics or dayplay going for them

dunno if you think I'd have trouble BSing a scumcase on GM, were I scum. I could probably write one right now but I'd be forcing it

[catboi]

dunno if you think I'd have trouble BSing a scumcase on GM, were I scum. I could probably write one right now but I'd be forcing it

I'm not sure why you jumped to this...

I am debating if going going goodmorning or cat.jpeg is better here, and was wondering what you saw - since you went from seemingly at null to scum reading them towards the end of your reread of them. Its the same reason that I asked T02 why they were town reading jpeg, and if they still are.

I saw that Bella also prefered to start with jpeg, and syugar+bella+me is enough to put jpeg to e-1, so it can be done - and was considering if it was worth it to see what goodmorning would do if jpeg was at e-1 since we cant see what jpeg would do with goodmorning was at e-1 since his vote is already there.

So taking stock of peoples thoughts on gm and jpeg.

there was some slightly scummy stuff at the end of the ISO, I still had doubts on whether cat.jpeg was scum,

So what did you see? and do you still have those doubts on jpeg?

meh, took the unvote and subsequent questioning as some expression of doubt

Let me try to dig things up.

i...would not necessarily want to test goodmorning with someone else at E-1 here

[catboi]

and independent on my townread on catboi, catboi/cat.jpeg makes more sense than any other team right now. I don't understand why jpeg just votes gm like that. It will be autoloss if they are partners. That's why I am freaked out.

if you are town, this is going to be a lesson in the hazards of trying to find the exact team all at once rather than simply voting whoever's scummiest. Of course, if I'm wrong on cat.jpeg and they get voted out today, that's on me but I don't mind being jailed in that scenario.

[catboi]

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

I still think T02 is Town and I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place. worst's hop onto my wagon is l a z y in a way that feels like a scumclaim.

But, y'know, go ahead and run me up, it'll be a great time.

I mean I guess the biggest thing that pinged me was the response to being wagoned just felt...fake. I realize that sounds underwhelming for a reason, but it's just the feeling I get

I am still very anti massclaim (it clearly will provide more info to Scum than it will to Town) but will bow to the will of the 3 UTs - let me know if you're still inclined to see this through or not.

That said, at 2.5 days remaining I'm also not sure there's really time for it.

In the meantime:

@Luke 805: I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not automatically scummy for someone to scumread me, I'm not [player name redacted for obvious reasons]. Did you want me to fight with you? I'm not really in the mood for that atm.

I'm here, but was waiting to hear a yea or nay from the UTs. My vote is (as indicated by my literal vote) for elimming worst today and mcing tomorrow.

This massclaim stuff has taken up 90% of the content today and was obviously the wrong idea on the face of it. No, I will not be discussing this any further than I already have.

This stuff felt like...using protesting claiming as an excuse while avoiding actually giving any content themself.

That's my feeling right now.

[catboi]

My feeling at this point is that it's an intentional stall from gm. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. Make people wait and force them to make a decision with less time to think it over.

[catboi]

I was only going to respond to questions/requests directed at me/everyone, but I really don't like this post. It very much feels like a setup for the "I forgive you for scumreading me, I know you have to (because you're scum and I'm now scumreading you)".

Okay, sure thing

[catboi]

I find it hard to believe you think both scum had you at E-1 and neither took the opportunity to hammer you

[catboi]

Like, this is...really underwhelming for Day 3.

[catboi]

I want take to check in before any hammer but otherwise don't have a lot to add.

[catboi]

if this reds jail syugar please

if it's town decide at random

[catboi]

cannot express regardless of your dissatisfaction with the game how suspect it is to hammer before letting the conftown post again

[catboi]

personally i'd say flip a coin between syugar and cat.jpeg if town but that's just me you're free not to trust me

[catboi]

cat.jpeg has had good tone in her responses but I'm worried she's thread avoiding

[catboi]

interesting timing

[catboi]

anything to add?

[catboi]

okay

do you have thoughts on syugar hammering after i said i wanted to wait for t02

[catboi]

please state your jailkeeper target for tonight if gm is scum before the thread is locked

if she's town then keep it a secret

[catboi]

want it in plain words so there is no ambiguity

[catboi]

@take -

please state your target for tonight if goodmorning is mafia in clear terms. I don't know how long until mala gets on and locks the thread and I don't want uncertainty

[catboi]

cannot express regardless of your dissatisfaction with the game how suspect it is to hammer before letting the conftown post again

I said I was hammering in 20 hours. We're just sitting here pointlessly

He already said he was jailing cat jpeg

I just wanted the confirmation

[catboi]

classic game where I'm onto scum early then talk myself out of it for 2 days

VOTE: lukewarm

I did a little rereading during the night. I think my reasons for un-aligning him with goodmorning were poor in hindsight. I think that both jailkeeper targets were plausibly saves, and I think both displayed a believable level of paranoia yesterday that is more likely to come from town.

[catboi]

catching up

[catboi]

My gut reaction is to omgus catboi, but also because he seems to have that angle to push me ready to go, when for all we knew there was not going to be a kill.

Actually, I don't know that scum!boi would be so blatant with it tho?

I don't particularly see what's so surprising about it, I correctly anticipated cat.jpeg was town yesterday based on how they were posting. A no-kill was extraordinarily unlikely as doing so is mechanically suboptimal for mafia - it raises the chances they'll get jailed again. Also removes T02 as a clear when he's shown he can be strong-willed and independent minded. Was more or less the anticipated conclusion and I'd developed a feeling overnight it might be you, had read into ISOs to check that. Will get into detail but as previously stated the paranoia from syugar and bella had begun to feel believable to me and it meant I had to re-examine you

Obviously if there

had

been a no-kill I would have mentally re-adjusted

Well I know who's entrance to today I like more!

Shrug, I'm not writing my posts to get townread, the game finally opened at approcimately 1:30 AM my time and I wanted to make a post before I went to sleep

[catboi]

@catboi, why Luke over syugae? Considering your reaction to the hammer.

My reaction was panicky at that moment in time because I'd had a vague unease about him throughout the day in how he was gunning for Cat.jpeg over goodmorning and strongly disliked the fact that he hammered when I'd requested waiting for T02.

something about the acerbic snapback of eliminating me if he was cleared by the jailer rang true to me, possible I was overthinking it but meh. I'm not sure day 3 makes a ton of sense as coordinated strategy between syugar and gm and I felt on a read back I wasn't sure if their interactions were partnery. I'll get into it in a bit.

[catboi]

classic game where I'm onto scum early then talk myself out of it for 2 days

VOTE: lukewarm

I did a little rereading during the night. I think my reasons for un-aligning him with goodmorning were poor in hindsight. I think that both jailkeeper targets were plausibly saves, and I think both displayed a believable level of paranoia yesterday that is more likely to come from town.

not gonna lie im closer to voting bella than this lmao

alright i'm done reading, i've been finding mafia stupider and stupider of a pastime in the past week so i'm not going to put a lot of effort into this

VOTE: Lukewarm

e-1

uhhh....okay?

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

it's been a hot day and I have had a hard time focusing. My issue with luke had been that he had seemingly consistently had goodmorning in his POE but had always found reason to vote and push somewhere else. More than a little squinting and frowning at syugar's posts today, though.

[catboi]

? You spent a lot of time yesterday implying you wanted to move the elim off GM onto cat, and then made this post. If, as maf, you knew you were going to kill to2, then you knew you'd get a cat inno, and then your mis elim of me is set up. It's even more flaggy as I was your lock town at one point.

If you are scum, it's a shame because I am actually thinking/reacting like Luke a lot. I had the same nk thought as he did, but you react to it (either organically or inorganically) with ????

It basically leaves me with you or catboi as an option.

P-edit I haven't read that.

shrug

i had seen everyone alive being paired with gm as fairly impossible

because the scumteam played well, the exception being catjpeg who had a dearth of interactions with gm although in hindsight that also didn't make sense

was gonna have to go back to the drawing board regardless, can't treat any reads i've been sliding on as sacred

killing no one to get cat jpeg elimed is a pretty suboptimal move on its face, interest or reaction doesn't look genuine, but i'm not really basing my vote off of that

When we had discussedthis before you had said there was no reason to rule out bella/gm, is there a reason your opinion on that changed?

[catboi]

trying to catch up but trouble focusing

[catboi]

I am comparing that to Bella's entrance of disagreeing with catboi's read on me, then accepting my town read on catboi, and engaging with me in a way that was accepting of me thinking of the game as it having to be between syugar and/or Bella, which is a losing strategy to start the day with imo

I mean, it's not like mafia can't go "oh shoot I was wrong I have to re-evaluate", it happens all the time. Not that I'm suspecting Bella here, this just isn't solid reasoning.

@cqtboi, I think it was in the newbie you just modded that there was conversation about the regret tell, but it was the first time I'd heard of it. It ended up being correct though: what are your thoughts?

Keeping in mind that I only really loosely read games I'm modding, I dislike general blanket tells. I tend to apologize for being wrong in games a lot as town, and I would find it pretty irritating if it were used against me. I think it

may

have been right on furtive because he was laying it on pretty thick/being theatrical about it that game, but I wouldn't take it as any sort of a guarantee for people in other games

[catboi]

@catboi what do u need to find me here? i'm pretty sure we can win by default

the fluidity and helplessness i've had in this game isn't really within my scum range, i usually just play decisive

I dunno man

[catboi]

What part of your interactions with GM should make me not entertain you as partners?

d1 argument

it's apparent that she was getting ready to fully omgus me if i didn't back off if you read between the lines in postnum #97. she relents and townreads me when she realizes that i'm not interested in voting her off d1 (i'm the one who disengages in #155)

as an added bonus, this post is so dismissive and diminutive of the opinions i'd posted thus far, so as to try to signal to the game that i'm either unreasonable or untrustworthy/egotistical: postnum #81

seen scum go for a sort of theatrical distancing in the early game but it's admittedly rare and reading it over again I have my doubts with th way gm was talking to you - looked like scum being put on the defensive by what she interpreted as an attack from you

[catboi]

I dunno I'm going to take a day to think about it

[catboi]

I dunno I'm going to take a day to think about it

how about this, and this is why ive been so frantic today

i know you have elo choking issues and i dont think ur going to be able to stay convinced on a townread on neither bella nor luke because their isos have holes and strange moments in logic or progression that mine doesn't (i am completely fluid and have been making posts all game ik u will come to empathize with after any amount of explanation)

even ur reasons for PoEing luke earlier today were quite clearly not based on anything amazingly strong under the hood

i have the interactions and the transparency u need to form a core here and eliminate the scum team 100% of the time, so dont let me die

this will probably be my last game for at least a few months so let's just go out with a good one

one of the ppl voting me out today clearly has a vested interest in doing so, i think it has to be me + u + jpeg

(i am aware that saying this opens up the door for u to be killed over jpeg tonight which is why i didnt want to lead with it but if you vocalize a strong tr on me today i think we can win regardleas of the nk they make, unless maybe they nk me, but it would also make 0 sense for u to nk me bc i have already stated my read on you isnt moving so u could just convincingly say u wouldnt nk me and win)

those are truly all my of my cards, wp if ur scum as well

I mean realistically in the scenario where you go over I'm significantly more worried that town votes me than the other way around, but no matter

[catboi]

VOTE: lukewarm

If syugar's scum after that last page, I'm snowed.

fwiw my posting today has less to do with indecision/paralysis and more an inability to focus at all to form coherent thoughts (too easily distractible). I had points I wanted to make against luke, was slightly weirded out by syugar's posting at the start of the phase (because the thought of deflated scum had entered my head) and so backed off, wanted to take time to consider things being said before making a move.

[catboi]

went to reread bella to check my bases and am ~unsure there, several posts I kind of find individually towny but nothing unaligning with GM in the grand scheme of things. I had actually felt that her wavering on GM last day phase more likely to be town-indicative, simply because I don't get why scum primes themself to bus and then hesitates in that situation - maybe if they sense the opportunity but I think I made myself clear that I wasn't going to vote cat.jpeg, ultimately

[catboi]

Spoiler:

VOTE: goldfish

A better vote.

I just want to repeat this early: a newbie game day one shouldn't last much more than ten pages

I don't love this - D1 should last until it runs out of steam or until deadline, whichever comes first. Sometimes that's page 10, sometimes it's page 25. I suspect this might be one of the longer ones but maybe that's just me.

And at both of you: Why’d you assume I was talking about scumreads first? It’s not an unreasonable assumption to make, but it is a (slightly) unnecessary one. I already know about the importance of both townreads and scumreads.

Most people mean "scumreads" when they say "reads", but you're not wrong.

I rather not bring up past games, that was weird.

This is... interesting when you immediately afterwards post 34. Granted the contexts are slightly different but it's an interesting dichotomy of thought.

@GoodMorning, why is your vote serious?

Why do you think?

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

I'd like to hear the reasoning behind this.

What do you think the reasoning is?

VOTE: catboi

This is a serious vote.

I am unfazed.

Do you think I was expecting that my vote would bother you in some way?

I sort of agree, that you need 'more info' but I think everyone has this weird double think where we know a day 1 elim is probably town and then I think sometimes momentum gets lost. I tend to find day one much easier to look back on with the Info about flips. But yes, w need some content to look back on.

[...]

It's a very nai statement to make though. Scum!Bella is happy to speed through day one and elim a townie

So you do think that 10 pages may be speedy? What makes you think momentum gets lost from second-guessing the wagons more than other factors?

I would also argue that if one's preferred wagon loses momentum, then one should consider pushing harder, but that may also just be me.

Oof, quotestriping on mobile is tedious.

I hate this post from GM.

Taking a break:

Currently don't want Bella, cat.jpeg, catboi, or syugar to be the elim.

I have possibly the most thoughts on Goodmorning of literally any slot in the game, but they are conflicting thoughts so I am having a really hard time sorting her

I would not stand in the way of any of Tidus, the worst, Takem, GM

I am probably done for the night (off to see my mom lol).

At this point, if gth I had to pick the elim it would be between goodmorning or T02.

I won't be mad about the worst or tidus going through, but I would prefer one of the other two.

I have finished my catch up.

VOTE: Tidus

The thing that I like about the ISO comment was a nice ping when I reached that point in the thread, but I did not realize that they literally fell off the face of the thread afterwards, which is definitely not a good look, and makes their in 462 worse.

I also have a worry that would be anti-town to voice currently if we were to start exploring alternative wagons.

This is what I was getting into earlier - Luke is essentially keeping GM at arm's length for all of day 1, mentioning her as a suspect and even suggesting her as a preferred elim, but never exerts any significant pressure there and winds up landing on Tidus for the elim instead. It's basically exactly how I'd expect a scum partner to handle GM.

[catboi]

Spoiler:

Also, newbie 2093 ended, so I can say that Asphodelus replaced out because she wasn't feeling into her games. So I don't think her dropping from this game is necessarily AI, and I'm not sure her being underwhelming compared to her other games is necessarily AI. I still think worst's play from Day 1 is significantly scum-motivated.

I am not feeling the worst right now, and I think that we should kill Goodmorning.

I felt off about a lot of goodmorning posts day 1.

First thing I didn't like was the repeated busy work questions that they asked in post 40. Like three in a row.

Then I liked a lot of catboi's points about them.

I felt like they got overly defensive when dealing with syugar. Particuarly the "slanders and lies" line.

It also stood out to me that they kept doing a page number reference thing in their posts. Like, a lot.

Page 5

Page 6 (and the top of page 7)

Page 8:

Page 9:

Page 13

Page 14

Page 15:

Through 17:

Through 19:

Through present

Seeing it, I really didn't like it on a gut level. Especially as it kept happening. I went back and checked their iso in their last couple games over night, and I did not see this in any of them. Like, not a single post doing it. Much less how many times it happened here.

I feel like I think it could be because they are self conscious, and feel the need to clarify their posts.

I'm holding off my vote until we decide if we are doing the popcorn thing.

The other thing that doesn't make sense to me right now is the worst hinself.

Bunch of quotes:

VOTE: Lukewarm good counterwagon, thanks.

naw nevermind
VOTE: catboi

I'm not convinced by the Tidus townread. I'm not convinced by the rate in which your confidence grew. I'm not convinced that your reads are "tidus town, nothing else worth actioning" (though understand this might be partially tainted by your being absent). I don't buy that your response to being called out on TMI reads is "I would NEVER!!! do that as scum". Just not sitting right with me at all.

Would still probably do Tidus but I'll concede it's largely because he's ignored all of the actionable calls to play the game. Which isn't a reason I'd like to use in a newbie game. But deadline pressure is what it is.

To expand a little I guess.

- I think scum are incentivised to win credit by looking like they knew better than the d1 town. I think it's actually instinctive for scum to double down on unpopular but correct reads.
- I think having syugar and I uncertain on Tidus and pushing there because of deadline pressure creates a good opportunity to move against us on a tidus townflip.
- I think catboi not having pushed elsewhere is a more a symptom of not having time to do so, than a symptom of not having an agenda. I doubt that it's a reliable indicator of catboi's alignment.
- it's also just really hard to guess what wagon would or wouldn't gain traction in this gamestate!!

allowing that if Tidus is scum his partner would likely be trying to come out of this looking good. I'm not totally sure exactly what that means, and it's rich with wifom. Just, like, if we hit tidus today and he's red don't look for his partners in the obvious places. I'm also not really sure how many people out of 100 just immediately bus a newbie partner.

Walk me through this.

You saw me make this argument.
You voted me.
You then made the exact same argument that I made.
You then seemed to think I was the scummiest player at the start of day (based off suggesting I start the popcorn).

If you think I am scum, why are you not questioning the argument that I am making? If you think the argument is Good and Valid, why are you not reevaluating me based on through fact that we appear to be thinking about the game the same way?

In favour of mass claim, popcorn is fine, suggest Luke goes first

Also, newbie 2093 ended, so I can say that Asphodelus replaced out because she wasn't feeling into her games. So I don't think her dropping from this game is necessarily AI, and I'm not sure her being underwhelming compared to her other games is necessarily AI. I still think worst's play from Day 1 is significantly scum-motivated.

I am not feeling the worst right now, and I think that we should kill Goodmorning.

I felt off about a lot of goodmorning posts day 1.

First thing I didn't like was the repeated busy work questions that they asked in post 40. Like three in a row.

Then I liked a lot of catboi's points about them.

I felt like they got overly defensive when dealing with syugar. Particuarly the "slanders and lies" line.

It also stood out to me that they kept doing a page number reference thing in their posts. Like, a lot.

Page 5

Page 6 (and the top of page 7)

Page 8:

Page 9:

Page 13

Page 14

Page 15:

Through 17:

Through 19:

Through present

Seeing it, I really didn't like it on a gut level. Especially as it kept happening. I went back and checked their iso in their last couple games over night, and I did not see this in any of them. Like, not a single post doing it. Much less how many times it happened here.

I feel like I think it could be because they are self conscious, and feel the need to clarify their posts.

I'm holding off my vote until we decide if we are doing the popcorn thing.

i have several concerns & like where this is going

VOTE: goodmorning

I'm also p lost and don't think I'm goanna have a comfortable solve until we have some more flips! I think gm wagon has probably been waiting to happen for a while and I was a reason it didn't and I feel dumb about it so seeing where this goes.

Luke vote is good and I stared into my soul for a long moment wondering whether to join but I like GM better

If you think I'm scummy, why are you not questioning the direction I am trying to lead the thread?
And if you think i am leading the thread in a good direction, why are you not reevaluating me based on the fact that we seem to, repeatedly now, viewed the game the same way?

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike. Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

I still think T02 is Town and I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place. worst's hop onto my wagon is l a z y in a way that feels like a scumclaim.

But, y'know, go ahead and run me up, it'll be a great time.

And good morning, why are you calling the wagon scummy, but only calling 1 person suspicious for it?

And why are you only evaluating the people who actively voted, and not the other people who scum read you?

Like, I was the one who said we should elim you, but I'm not on your list of people you needed to sort whether I was scum angling for your miselim?

I think Bella also scum reads you (not gonna double check this at the moment)

I have a poe of catboi, gm, the worst, and t02 and that has too many names in it, especially since i appear to be in multiple people poes, so that means we have too many miselim options in the player list.

I need the townies in that group to come town it up.

---

I didn't grab stuff on T02, but I was largely uninspired by their day 1, and they seemed to promise more going into day 2 because irl stuff was happening day 1, and it simply hasn't happened. So far they have voiced a scum read on gm, and that was it.

VOTE: The Worst

I went back through his iso, and I am having a hard time seeing the worst plays from the pov of a VT.

His "anyone is better then me" approach to the game, and the post about not hammering him without a claim made me feel like he had to be a pr or scum, and apparently he is not a PR. I don't think that you accidentally get half the lobby to think that you are a PR, so I think that it was deliberate to try and get through day 1.

---

In general all of his reads/votes look like they are chosen just based on what looks like it will go through. Here are his votes in, reverse order:

1) Goodmorning

He votes good morning in 688. this comes immediately after I suggested we push GM and catboi votes. This is a 180 of his read of GM.

The most recent post he made about goodmorning prior to that was 407, where he was town reading them (and has been for a while. expressed a town read in 331, 322)

I think I need to read some ISO's but right now tentative TRs on Goldfish, Goodmorning, and Notajumble (though i would like them to post some more)

pretty keen to hear more on why you townread any of these 3? I can see one of them kinda

I think I need to read some ISO's but right now tentative TRs on Goldfish, Goodmorning, and Notajumble (though i would like them to post some more)

to elaborate, Goldfish seems town to me due to how little she has posted, as town and mafia she usually posts a lot so its odd in general she isnt posting as much but I do feel its a town thing because as mafia she would probably be trying control the game a bit more and subtly buddying people.

goodmorning combatively pointing out how being combative isnt a town tell seems townie though might just be a play. Also something about their wallposting feels towny

With NotAJumble honestly i just have a vague town vibe so far.

So I know this isnt very solid but oh well.

what are you seeing in goodmorning which makes you think their motivation is to find town and not to undermine people accurately townreading each other? There's a dissonance between "I'd expect goldfish to be trying to steer this game" and "goodmorning is town for the way they're steering this game" - I'm not sure I see why you think the way goodmorning is tackling this game is towny?

I also kinda like goodmorning btw I'm just left a bit confused by your townread there

NAJON + goldfish reads are fine

the worst
Bellaphant
syugar
goodmorning probably?
catboi - town or cat.jpeg partner if powering thru
Takemi
Goldfish, cat.jpeg has one and I think it's cat.jpeg
tidus slot is probably just scum

maybe cat.jpeg and goldfish finding each other so quickly is a sign that there's some intangible towny energy from cat which i'm just not picking up. i also keep seeing posts from cat and thinking "huh wow i townread that" and then realising they were goodmorning posts..

i have several concerns & like where this is going

VOTE: goodmorning

He does not give any reason for why his read changed. Bella pressed him for a reason for the swap, and this was the only reason I have been able to find

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

this really concerned me as well. the "oh I reread catboi and other than tone all of his content seems fine~!!" isn't really consistent with a read re-evaluation from someone who voteparked you for the entirety of d1.

this one

I'm also holistically concerned that GM's entire read trajectory this phase is "my wagon is suspicious, let's vote the lowest hanging fruit from it" but that's hardly ground breaking.

EXCEPT, the thing he is calling scummy is something that happened after he voted, so it simply cannot be the reason he vote there.

2) Tidus

3) Catboi

Votes in post 610.

The worst was scum reading catboi for a while before this one. However, the vote did not come until it looked like he might have support. It comes 1 page after I called catboi scum. And, it also appears that his read completely dropped once more people started town reading catboi.

4)Me

Votes in 609. The most recent vote in the game before that was T02 voting me in 592. And, like catboi, this read has completely dropped. However, it seems like it dropped in response to me pushing him, and him not feeling like he had a good rebuttal (781)

Like it really looks like he saw someone vote me, so he voted me. Then he saw me call catboi scum, so he voted catboi. Then he saw catboi vote GM, he voted good morning.

Here we go again day 2: opens with "we should kill goodmorning", but no significant pressure there, even as a wagon develops.

Admittedly, everyone is kind of guilty of pivoting onto the worst when we should have gotten gm, but it feels like luke's action there is...more targeted? It's dissonant that for someone who supposedly had gm in his poe so much

more

of his attention is focused on pushing worst over goodmorning. They have their brief little exchange, he says he doesn't like gm's posts, whatever, I don't get the sense he's really trying to get GM killed as much as he is trying to look good if she gets flipped at any point

[catboi]

on a little bit of reflection, even the fos on GM at the start of day 2 oisn't all that exonerating - scum knew it was a jailkeeper setup and could very well have been anticipating the possibility that there might have been a guilty on them

[catboi]

JK-T02 means I'm mostly lost again but for now

VOTE: syugar

928 feels like trying to preempt people from scumreading his lack of content D2. I kind of set him aside as a townread and stopped caring but now I'll be going back and rereading his ISO.

Cat is looking more townish again I think. 926 and the posts leading up to it look like Town happy with a solve rather than Scum pointing it out.

Kinda sad we cant get any definite info from this but its also very fun. I think the fact that whoever you jailed both days was either mafia or the nk should be enough for us to figure it out.
Can i make a guess that at least one of the days Bella was jailed?

They both walked into this day phase, trying to push for scum reads on the jk targets.

Cat.jpeg even preempts the jk target on Bella, trying to set up the idea that it was a kill stop there.

Spoiler: Bella

@mod,.vla until monday

The worsts reads seem to be 'elim anything that isn't me'. I've not played with them much, but I don't recognize this kind of survivalist/ opportunist vibe. I'd like to see them really take ownership of a case, even if to understand their thought process.

@ the worst, you've votes everyone living apart from me, syugar and t02. You've just said you maybe town read catjpeg and catboi, but phrased in a really wooly way.
You also ignored the rest of my post. That's both you and catboi who have blatantly misrepped me now.

Spoiler: cat.jpeg

If both prs claim neither of them will definitely die (because we have a protective role) unless we have a mafia roleblocker which is a 2/5 chance. If there isn’t a roleblocker then I think its still unlikely

doctor

/

jailkeeper

will save the nk and it will be wifom thing. Bit better chance if it’s a

jailkeeper

though but still not good odds. I think the prs should claim tmr. If one of the prs dies sure we miss out on a potential conf town that they could of told us of, but on day 3 we can just look at their biggest townread from today. As for if a

jailkeeper

dies well yea their info will be lost.

About

jailkeeper

, obviously a conf mafia is more useful than a conf town but is a 'either mafia or nightkill' more useful than a conf town? im not sure but if we had a

jailkeeper

they probably picked someone with the intention of protecting them or stopping them from killing so they likely have an opinion about whether their target is town or not. I'm opposed to mass claim today unless we have a

jailkeeper

with somebody they think is scum (or a different role with a guilty but obviously you should always claim if ur that). If thats the case then the

jailkeeper

should claim then we should start popcorning after that. I don't think its good to have only one of the prs claiming, it should be all or none based off of what happened in my last game where scum claimed tracker, a role that was compatible with both real prs so neither counterclaimed. Anyway if none of the prs claim we can just assume they only have conf towns. (i guess if somebody had a conf townread on the worst or GM or something that would be useful too, up to you if you want to claim on that)

Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

I am also mirroring your pfp. Anyway I had no idea you used 'I don't love' so much until I checked your iso, it was completely subconscious. My scheming is no where near the purposefully copying mannerisms level yet. Also hate to say it but you townreading me probably wouldnt help me too much this game.

Spoiler: catboi

No deaths is good-ish. Given how stalled out things were yesterday, I was thinking that if no PRs died during the night we'd have people claim to narrow down the pool of suspects. Thoughts? (taking a page from LLD with this strategy)

Assuming it wasn't an intentional no-kill (highly unlikely), leaves the following as possible setups:

Column A & Row 1: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column A & Row 2: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column A & Row 3: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 1: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 2: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 3: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column C & Row 1: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Cop, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 2: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 3: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

Also, newbie 2093 ended, so I can say that Asphodelus replaced out because she wasn't feeling into her games. So I don't think her dropping from this game is necessarily AI, and I'm not sure her being underwhelming compared to her other games is necessarily AI. I still think worst's play from Day 1 is significantly scum-motivated.

because there's confirmed to be no kill it also limits the number of possible setups, if there's a cop or tracker the investigative report is useful information that can narrow things down (or possibly just out a mafia, depending on their target). A doc save is unambiguously clear, a jailkeeper target is unfortunately ambiguous as to whether it was a save or a blocked kill but it at least gives something to discuss. I think at this point though any information is going to be useful given where we are an the amount of replacements and idleness we had to work through on Day 1.

Spoiler: goodmorning

Massclaiming makes no sense with either 8 or 7 alive. Trying to hamstring your PRs at this stage of the game in a semiopen is not correct and I will fight anyone who thinks it is. (Even LLD, and I really like LLD!)

Now, if this were an Open, it probably would be correct, but this is not an Open.

Also: in the specific Tracker scenario mentioned, where a JK claims, it would make more sense for the Tracker to claim VT so that they can continue to investigate; otherwise they are completely useless as they'd likely eat the JK N2 (i.e., not being able to do their job) and very possibly become a miselim candidate afterwards, since they wouldn't even have "innocent child" status by way of the massclaim.

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike.

Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

Spoiler: syugar

No deaths is good-ish. Given how stalled out things were yesterday, I was thinking that if no PRs died during the night we'd have people claim to narrow down the pool of suspects. Thoughts? (taking a page from LLD with this strategy)

I am not opposed to this, i dont think? LLD convinced me that day 2 popcorn pr claims is good in general a while back - but I have not thought a out whether a lack of kill affects that at all.

nope not with 8 alive

slank cover til tomorrow, dont know what to say

theres no massing with 8 people it makes sense with 7 imo

in that sense it sucks no one died

catboi, t02, bella i believe to be town, squabbling over who else gets elim i dont particularly care, still

Because we opened the day up by immediately talking about mass claiming or not, I feel like its odd looking at everyone's entrances, because it seems to basically boil down to post on whether they agree or disagree with the mass claim for the most part - except for bella who was vla then skipped to talking about the worst.

It looks like me and catboi were pro massclaim, and everyone else was anti. That does mean that as a minimum one scum was against the mass claim, and I think that actually makes sense given the worry that there might be a floating guilty out there on them. This is another reason to think catboi is town here.

I think that the scum team would hope that the jk could be night killed without outing their target - which coincidentally, is something that cat.jpeg said explicitly "As for if a jailkeeper dies well yea their info will be lost."

I also noticed that cat.jpeg spent a lot of time talking explicitly about the jailkeeper possibility. Like says doc exactly once as part of a "doctor/jailkeeper" and then proceeds to talk about jailkeeper for the rest of the post.

Goodmorning on the other hand spent a lot of time talking about a tracker + JK combo, which I feel like could be setting up for a fake claim down the line.

I also highlighted goodmorning's comment about cat.jpeg, which feels awkward? And also surprising that goodmorning is now walking into day 3 with a cat.jpeg town read.

I am feeling a lot better about the gm+cat.jpeg solve atm. They both walked into day 2 against the mass claim, because they were worried about a guilty on one of them. Goodmorning's comment also looks like an awkward attemt to distance from cat.jpeg - which would make sense if GM is worried about having a guilty on them.

----

Something else I noticed toDay was this line

i am partial to elimming jpeg first for a possible jk clear

I don't follow, what jk clear do you get from killing jpeg first instead of gm?

The way he latches on to syugar suggesting a team of jpeg/gm but stays parked on gm doesn't make a ton of logical sense - realistically I'm not sure

why

he resists the cat.jpeg vote if he believes that's the team but it makes more sense if he's trying to position himself on the "correct" vote yesterday and is wary of being suspected for leaping off of gm

[catboi]

RE: the Goldfish stuff: I really need to see more from both Goldfish and Cat to read either of those slots at this point.

Meant to say this in my previous post but I have a decent TR on Numbers atm. Most posts seem to be looking at the game from a Town perspective.

Page 6 (and the top of page 7) is way more feelings than quotes, thank goodness for that:

^ good posting from the fish

I'm a little surprised, after reading the full page I'm still stuck on full null on Goldfish. I'm pretty underwhelmed by the reads post, none of them feel super original with the exception of the T02 read I guess? But I do think her interactions with Cat feel better than theirs with her. I also appreciated the abbreviated reaction test.

Expanding on that:
I'm strongly beginning to believe that Cat's continual assertions that Goldfish is buddying are actually projection. They look like they're trying to hide behind past history a little too much for my liking, and I'm also not seeing as much interaction with the rest of the game as I would like.

@catboi:
A. It is absolutely not still RVS.
B. if someone makes a bad argument to FoS you, an argument that feels, let's say, deceptive... you expect a town player to ignore it and not point out that deceptive behavior, despite the fact that deceptive behavior is sometimes a scumtell?

syugar: just saw your latest post to me, I'll respond to it as soon as I can. I am currently posting from work and my lunch ended 45 minutes ago

Do not like 171 from Goldfish at all. Feels very Nixon.

You let people float on by and say that it's understandable they haven't done anything, and now I'm having issues finding any townreads at all.

VOTE: Takemikazuchi02

Despite the thread blowing up, all of T02's recent posts are just about himself. When asked about the rest of the thread, didn't even respond.

I think a lot of the game feels fragmented for this reason - T02 and Numbers are each almost a party of one, and Cat and Goldfish feel like a party of two, plus the limited interaction from Ash, so really there are only 4 slots interacting with other slots regularly.

Reads, since I asked, on a spectrum from most Town to least (gaps indicate gaps in level of seriousness):

syugar

Numbers

Bella
(1/2 gap)

Goldfish

T02
Cat

Ash

catboi

Feel free to ask about any of these.

kind of notable - won't give a substantive read on goldfish, says she doesn't like a goldfish post, but still has goldfish 4th from the top in her reads list?

[catboi]

Spoiler:

Through 19:

Elaborate please.

Why are you asking me to elaborate on things I already explained?

Because I don't feel satisfied by the level of explanation.

VOTE: numbers

I don't like how you've been playing the returning player card since the start of the game.

VOTE: T02.

I don't like how you [insert random thing about someone that isn't related to the game in hand] since the start of the game.

This feels confrontational in a way that I would not expect newbie scum to be so early in the game.

What! Is going on with this game! If I never see the word "confrontational" again it will be too soon!

Just know that you probably won't get very much information if I am eliminated, if we eliminate T02 or Cat.jpeg, even if whichever one is eliminated isn't scum, we get some information out of it due to their reads, and I would say there may be a good chance of either of them being scum

Consider me like fourthing that this is an awful look. Doing nothing is not the defense you think it is!

I have a question I want answered before the day ends. To the people that townread me, why exactly?

It's a townleanish thing rather than a full townread for me, and it's completely meta. Once you got engaged with the game, you pretty immediately started to feel like you did in our previous game.

Through present:

My issue was I didn't like syugars posting, then I didn't like GM's response, then I didn't like how catboi called syugars posting town! I'm liking catbois progression much more.

I think in particular w/r/t syugar I've seen other players take that kind of aggressive approach where they seem to fos a lot of people on entry and gotten wary of it because of how wide their suspicion seemed to be, but the player ended up being town anyway. Just think stylistically the scattered approach is more likely to be town where scum faking aggression take a narrow-tunnel approach


If I assemble my vague townish feelings together, I have Cat.Jpeg (feel very good about this one), goldfish, bella, and syugar. It's possible I'm wrong on one of these because it's earrly, but if it

is

true it would mean all the scum would be in GM, Ash, T02, and jumble. Which feels...plausible?

Catboi, what moved TO2 into your scum pile, given you seemed to town read their entrance?

Another thought that I had about this post, is that cat.jpeg going from "the person catboi was voting" to his single highest town read is probably + town for him.

I drew the opposite conclusion from this - he doesn't seem to have had any real reason to change his mind at that point, none of what Cat was doing in between the vote and unvote was AI, so either the vote was fake or the unvote was, imo. What about it makes you think it improves the likelihood of catboi being town?

Not a big fan of the fact that the worst seems to be one of your top scum reads (they were in all three of your alternative scum team options), but you don't have what slot they are sorted out in your head.

This is not a bad point, and syugar's response to it was not great.

I tend to agree that if I'm right on Tidus, on the balance of probabilities I'm wrong on cat.

I'm a bit [username joke] on Lukewarm's contributions so far. I still find it jarring very few people are acknowledging Tidus' existence. It's like we're living in FFX-2.

I don't find it that weird that people would forget the existence of a player who seems that determined to make 0 contribution to the thread, but maybe that's just me.

Massclaiming makes no sense with either 8 or 7 alive. Trying to hamstring your PRs at this stage of the game in a semiopen is not correct and I will fight anyone who thinks it is. (Even LLD, and I really like LLD!)

Now, if this were an Open, it probably would be correct, but this is not an Open.

Also: in the specific Tracker scenario mentioned, where a JK claims, it would make more sense for the Tracker to claim VT so that they can continue to investigate; otherwise they are completely useless as they'd likely eat the JK N2 (i.e., not being able to do their job) and very possibly become a miselim candidate afterwards, since they wouldn't even have "innocent child" status by way of the massclaim.

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike. Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

I took it as read that your D1 feelings carried over, since you didn't add any new reasoning. Is that not accurate?

RE: voteparking on you: I had no reads stronger than my read on you; my read on you was a fairly strong toneread, but tone reads are relatively weak. When I went back and ignored the tone things I didn't like, I felt like you were largely coming from a (very foreign to me) Town perspective rather than a Scum one. You're definitely not my strongest townread still - I kind of expect to see stronger alignment-related opinions from you (though this game has definitely been... not good for that) - but you are a townread.

I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place.

Also, I thought I was your top scumread yesterday given you did nothing but votepark me yesterday? And I haven't even explained my vote?

this really concerned me as well. the "oh I reread catboi and other than tone all of his content seems fine~!!" isn't really consistent with a read re-evaluation from someone who voteparked you for the entirety of d1.

294 and 381. Literally the only thing I changed my mind about was my opinion in 381.

Not many teams make sense anymore and I don't have any clue what to do

All voters list viable worlds for who they are voting

worst has been flipping wildly through votes as though flinging things to the wall to see what might stick and has not necessarily looked genuine on some of them. Ash didn't look great either, including starting off with a justification as to why her posts might look different. I have more words than this but these should suffice to answer your question in brief.

I should say, for the record - I don't agree with anyone scumreading the "softclaim", because I didn't think it was a softclaim.

I think the only other thing for me to address is @Luke:
1. You clearly haven't been actually reading my posts if you're bringing "lies and slander" back up again.
2. What makes you think those were "busywork" questions instead of, I don't know, actual questions?
3. You wouldn't have noticed that over my "last couple games", since it's usually something I do when I get behind/replace in to games. My last game i was one of the more prolific posters, and the games before that were when I was in the process of site flaking 6 years ago and did not give a single shit about staying informed.

Anyway, more reads stuff later when I can be bothered but suffice it to say catboi may actually be Town. When I reread the game just for content and not tone, there was nothing in his posts to dislike. Also I figured out what I didn't like about Cat using the same words as me - mirroring can be used to buddy (& is the most common method of irl buddying, intentional and otherwise). Whether that means anything here is still undecided.

Wow, there are exactly 0 scummy things about my wagon. Completely normal and very cool, nothing suspect whatsoever.

This game has been so exhausting and unfun. Frankly I'm just about ready to die.

VOTE: worst

I still think T02 is Town and I understand where catboi is coming from already even if it's a very misguided place. worst's hop onto my wagon is l a z y in a way that feels like a scumclaim.

But, y'know, go ahead and run me up, it'll be a great time.

And good morning, why are you calling the wagon scummy, but only calling 1 person suspicious for it?

And why are you only evaluating the people who actively voted, and not the other people who scum read you?

Like, I was the one who said we should elim you, but I'm not on your list of people you needed to sort whether I was scum angling for your miselim?

I think Bella also scum reads you (not gonna double check this at the moment)

When a wagon springs from 0 to E-2 in one page, it's slightly more often than average Scum-involved. In that case, you look at the voters. I have townreads on both catboi and T02; I don't have one on worst, and worst's vote was also the worst vote.

RE: you: I didn't like your entry read on me, but sometimes people have difficulty catching up on a full game and improve on context once they're actually participating.

RE: Bella: we seem to be just missing each other in this game. I'm feeling a lot more confident in her being Town since the start of D2, and I also think we're starting to reach more points of agreement.

I think you may have missed saying something you meant to say in the above post, or did you accidentally quote 686 there?

I'm also holistically concerned that GM's entire read trajectory this phase is "my wagon is suspicious, let's vote the lowest hanging fruit from it" but that's hardly ground breaking.

This phase has been going on for 4-5 pages which were mostly arguing about massclaiming and I have two posts (this is #3). What trajectory are you looking for with that kind of sample size?

--

Why is everyone doing associatives before flips? With 8 alive?? Seriously. Stop it, get some help.

I am still very anti massclaim (it clearly will provide more info to Scum than it will to Town) but will bow to the will of the 3 UTs - let me know if you're still inclined to see this through or not.

That said, at 2.5 days remaining I'm also not sure there's really time for it.

In the meantime:

@Luke 805: I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not automatically scummy for someone to scumread me, I'm not [player name redacted for obvious reasons]. Did you want me to fight with you? I'm not really in the mood for that atm.

While we're waiting for gm to answer, I'd like to point out that Bella, Syugar, Luke and Catboi all voted for tidus and worst and I'm confident both mafs are among those 4.

While we're waiting for gm to answer, I'd like to point out that I don't like this post.

Agree with this and the subsequent reasoning, regardless of T02's PR claim.

--

In the interests of keeping this game moving I'm vt. Don't have time for anything else tonight but I have plenty of anything else to discuss.

Cat is looking more townish again I think. 926 and the posts leading up to it look like Town happy with a solve rather than Scum pointing it out.

What does this even mean?

Also I want to pint out mafia would have known we had just one pr and it was a jailkeeper from the start of day 2 because they knew we were in the C column and there was a protective role. Idk if that helps with anything but im glad we didnt claim yesterday.

What makes this "Town happy with a solve" vs "scum pointing it out?"

Town and scum would both know it at the point that they made that post. Its not even a solve

Well, no, it's not literally a solve, it's a "yay, we know what the setup is now", but solve is quicker to write. Scum would have known the setup already (as Cat points out), and this feels like genuine new excitement which Scum would not have. I also don't think that newer scum would necessarily want to draw attention to what the scum would have known at any given time.

I found something interesting while skimming through the thread. At the end of day 1 652, gm miscounted the votes and dropped what he thought was the hammer vote on tidus(Tidus already got hammered at the time)
This means that 5 of the 6 uncleared players are involved in both miselim wagons.

You... might want to read my post again if this is what you think happened. I quite literally said I was voting just in case there had been a miscount, not that I thought that was likely.

I want everyone to share their reads list.
This day is crucial and we need to share info and discuss as much as possible so don't slack off please.

Next post will be one.

That's fine, but it's the little words that matter. You said is 'suddenly' had this read on catjpeg, but it's not new at all - words like that feel very scummy to me. You call it 'suspicious' but I've just shown to what my progression is and you haven't really responded, just defended yourself.

I don't know that I actually have a comment, lol - I appreciate the clarity? I think it generally makes sense and is plausible you're town just getting paranoid here.

I was only going to respond to questions/requests directed at me/everyone, but I really don't like this post. It very much feels like a setup for the "I forgive you for scumreading me, I know you have to (because you're scum and I'm now scumreading you)".

This is a shamelesspledge, was dealing with a migraine all day yesterday but hope to be able to catch up tonight.,

ur literaly dying...

I'm sorry that my inability to look at screens for more than 5 minutes inconvenienced you! Next time I'll just tell my brain not to do that and I'm sure it'll work!!

Im not going to dignify that with a response!

Readslist, very generally:

Town
T02- confirmed by un-cc'd claim
Bella - has shown clear and transparent thought processes throughout the game, none of which seem manufactured
Luke - has been obviously attempting to solve the game, particularly today; minor issues regarding the massclaiming stuff but I think it was well-meant
Cat - started to drop some newbTown tells, including the one I pointed out earlier; while their wishy-washy reads tend to look scummy, those also can be an indication of lost newbTown
catboi - I don't know anymore; I think one way then I think the other way. Fairly sure we've been of opposing mindsets and moods throughout
syugar - has a lot of posts but not a lot of content; as soon as he started being widely townread, he stopped trying altogether. His early posts today looked very much like someone trying to set up against a soft guilty
Scum

If anyone wants any clarification, let me know.

And then on luke - there's a handful of interactions, but gm never,

ever

gives anything resembling a substantive read on luke prior to her final readslist, which we can rightly wipe off the table. there's all these little bits of faux-tension and questioning each other but I have to say it doesn't feel nearly as pointed as gm got with syugar early in the game. It just makes significantly more sense as teammate distancing to me.

[catboi]

i can't do this tonight

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

just to be sure

[catboi]

Okay, I've been trying to read posts only to realise I haven't actually processed any of the words, im exhausted right now. I know I haven't contributed much after being cleared. I have a feeling Syugar is town. He keeps saying he's gonna leave and then coming back. I know there's a thing where its assumed mafia care more about winning and might be more likely to do this but it feels not like that.

that's okay, it's not an easy position at all

[catboi]

I don't have any for you but it may be a good time for you to ask catboi about his read on me

I don't want to do it cuz I don't want to seem vain

@catboi

will you explain your syugar read?

in a general sense the panicked flail and rapid swinging about is a lot more of how I expect town to act in these situations

[catboi]

I don't have any for you but it may be a good time for you to ask catboi about his read on me

I don't want to do it cuz I don't want to seem vain

@catboi

will you explain your syugar read?

in a general sense the panicked flail and rapid swinging about is a lot more of how I expect town to act in these situations

well that was unsatisfying lol

story of my life