Toriel's Patience (end)

[Meuh]

Doing mech spec in an open game is impressive…

[Meuh]

VOTE:

Beeboy

[Meuh]

I missed voting in pink, it’s so fun

[Meuh]

I believe I've played 1 game with them before. I don't like that they voted for somebody who hadn't posted.

We’ve played 2 games together before (Invictus also happened), I tend to vote for non-posters when opening, I like broadening our horizons rather than laser focusing on the handful of slots present at game start, especially if I’m not going to be super present in the few hours after game start

[Meuh]

What if we build a scum block

[Meuh]

Can I be in the scum block? No one is townreading me yet.

Sure let's start the scumblock together!

[Meuh]

im townreading you kinda

I will never be able to know your alignment again

Wait was Dann's post not directed at Mandate?

[Meuh]

it was directed at mandate

not sure what merlyn is referring to either

I think Merlyn was interpreting it as a townread on her, and that she's unable to sort people who townread her (because she just automatically wants to townread them back)

[Meuh]

All of Sakura's posts have left me perplexed

[Meuh]

Because limming scum on d1 and d2 is the primary goal right now and we can think about what comes later later?

I see, although... that sounds like a tall order tbh, how often does that happen in games?

2 shots at hitting scum in an 11:3 mountainous really isn't terrible? and I also don't see in what way the point you're making proves that we shouldn't be scumhunting here.

[Meuh]

100% of the games dannflor is town in have d1 and d2 scum eliminations

this number is totally real just check my wiki

This post made me realize that wikis are no longer displayed besides people's messages...

[Meuh]

Wish this game had hoods so I could pocket Shirou in one...

[Meuh]

This doesn't help Sakura as a wolf though, does it?

what doesn't

If you're a wolf you want to be townread so you go over or push some wrong villagers but Sakura is just, doing neither? Unless that's the point to get townread but that's wifom ya know?

This feels kind of reductive? Wolves post to have thread presence, to be engaged in the game, to have fun... pushing agenda is nice but not every single wolf post is anchored on that and not every wolf post has deep and complex connotations. Wolves absolutely just post random thoughts to look more engaged, which tend to make you look more townie (or at the very least less appealing to lim), and nothing in Sakura's posting indicates that she isn't

trying

to be townread. Wraps around to the classic "if I'm a wolf, how come I'm not being townread?" argument, as if getting townread is this guaranteed thing to gain with certain posts rather than something that wolves fail at a bunch.

[Meuh]

Wish this game had hoods so I could pocket Shirou in one...

DOES YOUR EVIL KNOW NO BOUNDS GIRL?!!1!1

[Meuh]

Test

[Meuh]

God I reread our PT from that game, actual work of art...

[Meuh]

Okay so it wouldn't let me send my message when it had an emoji in it? Weird

[Meuh]

Ohhhhhhh wait through the process of copy+pasting it went from the emoji between colons to the regular emoji type and THAT was causing my issue!!
I can still spam as many emojies as I want...

[Meuh]

I wouldn't randomly throw out a townread and defend a player just for the fun of it?

Scum do that, though. Not "for the fun of it", but scum make reads and engage with the game in ways that aren't solely focused on pushing townies over or doing super surface level townie things. Scum want to act like they do as town, to look helpful, to look as though they're thinking about the game, to maintain presence, to cozy up to people, to not get seen as an inactive...
Sakura making a handful of posts that aren't focused on throwing someone under the bus doesn't mean she's town? It feels like a reach

[Meuh]

I think sakura is kinda townie

I kinda agree

[Meuh]

I think the main thread roleplaying was even funnier at some points though

but maybe that's just me

p-edit: Sakura...townie?

Main thread roleplaying was really good actually, I think we both put more effort into that

[Meuh]

Never thought I'd be playing a game with town Dunnstral, but I think it's finally happening!

[Meuh]

Think I agree with Merlyn being town here

[Meuh]

Dear Meuh, you spend two of the few content posts you've arguing against Sakura and in the first "perplexed" sounds like it has a negative connotation, but by the end...you find her townie?

Hmmmm

Were you planning to betray me again?!

VOTE: Meuh

The word “perplexed” is deliberate there, it’s negative in terms of her ideas, that seem out there to me, but not her actual alignment.
I argue against

Keyleth’s argument

(which was bad regardless of Sakura’s alignment), then took a look at the ISO and got vague townvibes
You’re imagining implications for reads from the surface of my posting and not the actual thought process I have, there’s no read on Sakura that I actually voice before I agree with Ari, you’re drawing that line, and you’re wrong for doing that! Raises your scum equity a bunch cause I think you’re capable of more substantial reads, was wondering who would react when I agreed with Ari on Sakura, but this is sad…

[Meuh]

I also wonder what made you think Dunn is town though?

Him townreading me

[Meuh]

Then, did you misunderstand what my point was or do you still think it's an "unsubstantial" read?

Misunderstood your point, I think engaging in theoretical discussion that doesn't amount to much and revolves around general ideas on the game rather than things specific to what's currently going on is scummy, both for myself and for others, so it's fair

[Meuh]

Then, did you misunderstand what my point was or do you still think it's an "unsubstantial" read?

Misunderstood your point, I think engaging in theoretical discussion that doesn't amount to much and revolves around general ideas on the game rather than things specific to what's currently going on is scummy, both for myself and for others, so it's fair

only thing ive read from

meuh

and its a +1

Read my posts they’re all great!

[Meuh]

265 is a funny post because yes, those odds are indeed terrible (EV of limming scum today + tomorrow is just above 3%... only ever so slightly lower than the a priori odds of Mandate's teamread being right)

I was interpreting it as being “hitting scum on day 1/2 is very difficult/unlikely”, and not being about hitting scum on BOTH days. Your interpretation seems more sensical when looking back at it. To me, Mandate was saying “our goal for the first 2 days is to hit scum” and Keyleth was replying with “but hitting scum is unlikely, (and therefore it’s not what our priority should be)”, which I took issue with.

[Meuh]

fair

also heres an indie song ill never get out of my head

Such a good track!!! I love the album

[Meuh]

<snip> idk who

merlyn

and is my brain has nothing in it when i think of

brown eyes

I actually have a hard time keeping track of 13 other players at the same time, this is mostly a problem in larges, but this one is at least the samallest large size.
But idk if it's a side-effect of it or not, but i feel like Brown eyes has been mentioned a few times and i cant even remember that they are a player in this game nor what they have done.

mindmeld

Piling onto the mindmeld

[Meuh]

meuh

do you actually have reads? i see a lot of explaining on your end that im not getting any defintiive stance from

Mandate hardest town read
Merlyn, Dunn, you, Sakura, also town
Dann, Ari, Shirou, Key, Implo, I've absorbed some of their posting but don't have a good grasp there
Brown Eyes, Alisae and Beeboy exist I think?

[Meuh]

When she made this post, added with the "Sakura's posts left me perplexed", I thought she was mindmelding with me that Sakura wasn't that townie.

Ah this reminds me @Meuh can u tell me

why

you were townreading me when you posted 321?

Echoing what others had said, you seemed generally carefree in your approach in a way that felt authentic, more of a slight feeling than a solid read, although all of your posting since has kind of just gone to reinforce that feeling

[Meuh]

meuh

do you actually have reads? i see a lot of explaining on your end that im not getting any defintiive stance from

Mandate hardest town read
Merlyn, Dunn, you, Sakura, also town
Dann, Ari, Shirou, Key, Implo, I've absorbed some of their posting but don't have a good grasp there
Brown Eyes, Alisae and Beeboy exist I think?

bonk

Having a low post count is not a good reason to be suspecting 3 people, and only suspecting those people

I'm not suspecting them, they're just there. I'm scumreading nobody

[Meuh]

I should really be resting soon but the premise of my thinking right now is that scum does not have substance but appears to have something that makes logical sense.

I like this post along with the scumread on me, kind of feels like Taly has a vague idea of the place or the way in which scum are playing and is trying to fit someone into it as a puzzle piece, which is how I tend to approach things a lot of the time. (I talk a lot about things "clicking", for me my reasoning for a scumread is often more just that it fits into place rather than some intense feeling on that specific player)

[Meuh]

meuh

do you actually have reads? i see a lot of explaining on your end that im not getting any defintiive stance from

Mandate hardest town read
Merlyn, Dunn, you, Sakura, also town
Dann, Ari, Shirou, Key, Implo, I've absorbed some of their posting but don't have a good grasp there
Brown Eyes, Alisae and Beeboy exist I think?

bonk

Having a low post count is not a good reason to be suspecting 3 people, and only suspecting those people

I'm not suspecting them, they're just there. I'm scumreading nobody

So your reads are:
Town
also Town
Null
also Null

Yes
The nulls are more "unsorted" than null though

[Meuh]

ari has this weird fucking knack of kicking my ass into gear but okay

I apologize for making you work hard while I just slack off and sip on champagne I can't help it.

but im curious, how do you read

alisae

?

Taly, Alisae has barely posted.

they clearly have some sort of knowledge about the others playstyle and mindset for whatever reason

I should really be resting soon but the premise of my thinking right now is that scum does not have substance but appears to have something that makes logical sense.

I like this post along with the scumread on me, kind of feels like Taly has a vague idea of the place or the way in which scum are playing and is trying to fit someone into it as a puzzle piece, which is how I tend to approach things a lot of the time. (I talk a lot about things "clicking", for me my reasoning for a scumread is often more just that it fits into place rather than some intense feeling on that specific player)

why not feel inflated by the fact that im wrong on you?

where should my vote be?

where should

shirou's

vote be?

Somewhere else probably

[Meuh]

meuh

do you actually have reads? i see a lot of explaining on your end that im not getting any defintiive stance from

Mandate hardest town read
Merlyn, Dunn, you, Sakura, also town
Dann, Ari, Shirou, Key, Implo, I've absorbed some of their posting but don't have a good grasp there
Brown Eyes, Alisae and Beeboy exist I think?

explain the mandate tr plz

Many moments that felt like good, authentic town thought processes!
Mandate has just felt repeatedly like having a town perspective and I feel solid about that
I was going to dig up some posts but I think my time is better spent elsewhere

[Meuh]

doesnt sound like you have strong belief in your alignment,

meuh

Yeah that's kind of the point of the joke there
Reality is that it's less of a lack of belief in myself and more a lack of disbelief in others.
I'll come back to this once I find a scummy player but I've found none. I can vaguely gesture towards my unsorted players as better places to vote but I don't have strong conviction anywhere there (cause yknow, unsorted), so I'm not pointing fingers.

[Meuh]

My main thought in 34/35 waa Beeboy scum and then suddenly an avalanche of votes on 36
I’ve already been voting Beeboy since RVS but I’ll vote again to be all dramatic about it
VOTE: Beeboy

[Meuh]

Beeboy voting for me is really confusing?
Cause seemingly he wants to shake things up to get people to acquire scumreads and also thinks there’s scum in active players… but like how does a vote on me accomplish either?
I’m not particularly active here, I have more posts than him but not even by a super significant amount and my posts haven’t been super content heavy, so idk how it fits into the idea of scum in the actives (unless “the actives” is the vast majority of players)
and I’m already being thrown out as a theoretical vote or an actual vote? Beeboy talks about the looming threat of a wagon on him or Alisae even though Shirou and I have had a much more real threat of one for a while? His vote doesn’t actually shake things up
It feels disjointed

[Meuh]

Happy birthday Taly!

[Meuh]

(That was your cue to start townreading me)

[Meuh]

Beeboy voting for me is really confusing?
Cause seemingly he wants to shake things up to get people to acquire scumreads and also thinks there’s scum in active players… but like how does a vote on me accomplish either?
I’m not particularly active here, I have more posts than him but not even by a super significant amount and my posts haven’t been super content heavy, so idk how it fits into the idea of scum in the actives (unless “the actives” is the vast majority of players)
and I’m already being thrown out as a theoretical vote or an actual vote? Beeboy talks about the looming threat of a wagon on him or Alisae even though Shirou and I have had a much more real threat of one for a while? His vote doesn’t actually shake things up
It feels disjointed

I still hate Beeboy's vote on me and the gap between his outlook on the game and his actual actions, unless I missed something I don't think this has been resolved in the slightest

[Meuh]

I do still feel like Merlyn is just town and I'm uninterested in pushing there
I would act all high and mighty because I caught scum Merlyn in another game, but I mostly caught her off of the person she replaced's ISO so I can't even take credit here

[Meuh]

I like beeboy. The push on him doesn't feel right. It might be town that's just happy to put there vote somewhere

I don't agree with

Sakura

or

Mandate

pushes.

How do you feel about

Meuh

?

Do you think they were scum driven?

I feel iffy. I feel like I am actually good at reading town Meuh. She's kind of spicy with takes but tends to be right. So I'm kind of waiting for that to happen and if it doesn't then I'll know

(I'm also very much pocketed by the idea of me having good reads)

[Meuh]

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

[Meuh]

I do think that I have a pretty good read record lately actually, the issue is that I'm too busy being mislimmed to do much with said reads!

[Meuh]

Beeboy/me towncore so real

[Meuh]

Yeah that’s kind of my main issue there too, I just don’t buy Beeboy’s overall perspective as being one a townie truly believes in, but I can see scum make it up

[Meuh]

I guess “overall perspective” is vague to the point where it can be applied to like any read ever, but I meant more their thoughts on like, the game stance and groups of people (such as the wagon on them)

[Meuh]

I say “like” a lot

[Meuh]

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

I do think that I have a pretty good read record lately actually, the issue is that I'm too busy being mislimmed to do much with said reads!

i kind of despise this vote and follow-up for some reason. Possibly because I know that I'm town and so I'm tempted to just BoP the person who voted me and then immediately said that her reads are really good lately, but she's not actually calling me scum with this vote, she's aggressively not calling me scum with the very noncommittal phrasing of the vote, but then immediately saying she has really good reads? It's just like sort of mentally incongruous, she votes me in a way that seems not motivated by a read (or at least not a materially strong one, though she can correct me) but then mazkes this next post 5 minutes later about how her reads are good lately, it's just like, I don't know why she makes that comment after making a vote that strongly looks like it's just prodding a lurker to start doing something.

Unvote

VOTE: Meuh

1295 was a reflection I had on 1293, not an assertion that I have good reads and therefore should be followed on you. Kind of confused why you thought it was? I did peek at your ISO and came out of it just feeling kinda meh, my vote was for the purposes of applying pressure mostly cause I got the impression you could be scum but wanted some more substance
Also your argument for Beeboy town kinda falls apart when you remember Taly voting for Beeboy? Which I’m also confused as to how you missed because it was just brought up

[Meuh]

Beeboy/me towncore so real

Yeah that’s kind of my main issue there too, I just don’t buy Beeboy’s overall perspective as being one a townie truly believes in, but I can see scum make it up

????

am i reading the same player as half this game like

VOTE: Meuh

is there humor that's genuinely being lost on me rn?

The joke there is that Beeboy and I were just voting for each other and that a towncore of us would be unconventional and unrealistic, but I’m mentioning it because we just started voting together for a third player.

[Meuh]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?)

I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Anyone else find this scummy? Implo invoking how much a player is already being townread/thread consensus on an issue when posting his take on it is kind of off to me. It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town. It comes more from scum thinking about the optics and the ramifications of their read than a townie just dropping some thoughts.

[Meuh]

Yeah I'm looking at Implo's ISO and there's nothing town indicative there!
The more substantial reads are townreads that are just really easy to make from an informed perspective. I don't think any of said townreads are pushing boundaries to an extent where I think Implo is particularly trying to sort people
The scumreads are just kind of boring and weak? Implo has little actual insight on it, I think the most substantial scum argument so far is the one against me which is super weak
There's just nothing there that actually indicates Implo thinking about the game like a townie

[Meuh]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

[Meuh]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?), Mandate town (...) I thought Mandate's opening was slightly +town even from someone who is clearly gimmicking and I like the timing of the Taly vote on page 4 quite a lot. Dann is townish just for voting like 8 times in 4 pages.

149 is actually an interesting post and probably true of me bc I probably would have explained things in the scum PT at some point, alas. Probably +town (maybe strongly) for Brown Eyes to point out an observation like that, it's an observation that could easily just never be made by anyone. Dunn calling Brown Eyes town shortly after this is slightly good for Dunn (who I don't really have much of a read on at this point).

Mandate town is easy to say, Implo just proceeds to point out bad posts
It's a read I agree with but also like, naturally easy to fake
Dann read is, as Implo himself pointed out, what a lot of other people were already thinking, easily fakeable.
The Brown Eyes townread is probably the best read Implo has, but 1. I think it's something he could still notice and then comment on, and 2. it's a read based off of a singular post. I think this comes back around later with the Sakura read and it's interesting the way that Implo is laser focusing on a single post, I think it makes it easier for him to argue a scumread but also feels less townie because well, there's a whole bunch of other posts to consider! This is something that comes back a few times, the specificity of the reads. It's always specific things being pointed out and being the reasoning for reads, which seems to me to come more from scum trying to make sure their reads are understood to be about a thing in particular. Scum really hate it when their ideas aren't clear, but townies are much more likely to make broad statement about other people's posting and the general vibes from said posting. But for Implo it's almost always one post or another, never a player's general direction.

221 is a pretty good point (on Keyleth being town) and probably +town a bit for Sakura. To elaborate a bit since it came into question why I think it's +town for Keyleth, the post is just very frank about what it's trying to do. I think scum on average will tend to shy away from a post that's like "hey, we already have me + x as town, who are the other two" particularly in the context of Keyleth having some heat on her. It's not a slam dunk or anything, but I think it's very easy to glance at that post and briefly *think* it's a slam dunk before you've thought it through intensely, hence Sakura is slightly townish for it (but only slightly and this paragraph is already way too long)

This is like, fine, but also something Implo can just say about a town Sakura. I guess the point about it being surface-level scummy but actually town indicative is cool, but it's also the exact angle Implo would be able to argue from with the knowledge that Sakura is town and the thread otherwise disliking that post from her.

i can see 449 being townish, 378 is kind of eh though.

ARE YOU STILL GLAZING OVER THEM

yes

Meh

Somewhat inclined to trust Ari on Sakura.

explain the mandate tr plz

wasn't to me but mandate is extremely town in my eyes.

They have all the right stances at all the right times. The way they're thinking about the game feels right, I liked their opening, I liked the evolution of their taly+keyleth team read, I like the evolution of their stances in general, like, the townread on sakura a page or two ago is good for example

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

i think dannflor's first 10 or however many pages were really town, i'm not interested in voting for dannflor unless time passes and he falls off (which could happen but time has not yet passed).

Just kind of reiterating that read without anything new, but making sure to keep the door open for a future vote. So like all this accomplishes is setting things up so Implo can vote for Dann later? Which is also something Implo ends up saying about me. Can't say I'm a big fan of these posts anticipating votes instead of just voting when it feels right to. Feels overly careful.

yeah sure whatever taly is town probably

Taly makes a bunch of good posts (including a vote on Dann, notably) and then Implo pops in with this. I guess it's alright I dunno

Relevantly the coalition game that I was in w Ari and Merlyn just ended today and I was scum so I have some extremely fresh scum meta, which is almost never true of me lol

I think it gave me a pretty good sense of some things from Ari to be on the lookout for as reasons to townread her. If I were a man of more patience I would go back and reread the game from forever ago where she snowed me as scum but i am not going to do that probably ever lol

He acts all murky about Ari for a while, then says he can have better reasons to townread her now, and then doesn't elaborate. Only been 24 hours tbf but his positioning around Ari is definitely odd. Feels like he's scared of her.

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

VOTE: implosion

????

You know what, i'm not gonna ask anymore, i'm just gonna hope someone that's good at the game gives me some guidance while I figure out where my head is at.

I think this reaction would be kind of incredible to fake as scum. Like, I've been vaguely lurking and beeboy has been talking about thinking their wagon was scum driven and so i feel like replying to beeboy jumping on me with a ???? after beeboy just listed me near the bottom of their reads list the previous page is just like, something scum who care sharply about how they're perceived would never do. I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Like Sakura pointed out, this is very much echoing previous sentiments about her. There's a lot of words so it feels good but the crux of it is "Sakura doesn't care about how she's seen" which like true, but also applies to other posts of her and has already been mentioned.

I have very mixed feelings on beeboy's current trajectory. I think the part of it that I see as unlikely to come from scum is that just literally calling every single person on your wagon scum is I think a somewhat unnatural reaction to have as scum, I think as scum you get to choose what your reads are and so the normal thing to do is to like, pick a token person on your wagon whomst you will say is actually town and then lambast the rest of it. The counterpoint to this is that beeboy is coming back from a long break so I could see them theoretically being kind of lazy as scum and just falling in to pushing all the people pushing them. But I think I am tending to think it's probably town, I don't really see a good reason for scum beeboy to decide to wake up and choose violence in this way. It just kind of puts them at the center of narratives and in the spotlight and embroils them in conflict and idk what the point would be when simpler options exist.

In a dramatic turn of irony i am now going to call beeboy the only townie on my wagon (nah but i am about to call meuh scum i think)

I think Implo not noticing the mention that Taly had been on the Beeboy wagon and that Beeboy was townreading her isn't a very good look... feels odd to drop a read like this but then also just not see 1281 which is quite literally 2 pages earlier, and right after Beeboy's readlist. But like regardless, the argument here is just that scum!Beeboy would not take the stance that his wagon is scumlead cause that makes conflict? Which sure is fine I guess

Anyway. Let's wrap up the post chain with a summary of where I'm at with everyone.

Very Much Locktown: Mandate, Sakura. It'd take a hell of a lot to convince me away from either of them.

Town: Brown Eyes, Keyleth

Probably Town but not as confident as above: beeboy, Dunn (only townread I think I haven't talked about at all yet, but kind of a gut feels-like-he's-playing-like-i-remember-his-towngame-looking)

Town, but will need to be audited sooner than other townreads: Dannflor

Town, but I still have reservations: Taly

Still gotta sort: Ari, Merlyn, Alisae

Also in the still gotta sort tier, but I'm choosing to put him separately not because I think he's scummier than the other people in the tier but because it'll make him angry: Shirou

I saw a thing I don't like and don't remember seeing anything I thought was particularly town but I am definitely going to go look over more stuff later: Meuh

Brown Eyes and Keyleth seemingly haven't changed in Implo's eyes since like his second post? I think the specific mention of the Dunn townread not being spoken about yet is another one of those things that could theoretically be said by town, but that I think scum are more likely to notice. Him elaborating on that read but not some of the older reads that he hasn't touched on in ages very much gives that scummy feel of a player sticking to exactly what's been said before and only deviating on an explicit mention of the contrary.
Definitely curious about his progression on Taly, cause it very much swung with the way the thread was going, which feels convenient.

Overall:
-His town reads feel white knighty
-He feels scared of Ari
-His stance of Taly is convenient
-It feels like he has a need to make his stance exceedingly clear and doesn't like leaving things vague (which is very much a scum perspective)
-There's an almost total lack of progression that feels like it's happening outside of the thread. Every little change in Implo's view of the game is stated in thread. He's not developing a full view of the game on his own, he's dropping thoughts in thread and those thoughts alone are his stance in the game.

[Meuh]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

Like that's the one thing on my head, i dont think at the time (although i cant remember havent double checked) anyone was specially suspecting implo, and as scum he could've stayed silent about the EVs and go with whatever better strategy for his scumteam would be.
Or am i just looking too much into something that's NAI.

First and foremost, I'll echo 288 and 315. Scum just kind of do things and it's not always super agenda based or has deep meaning.
I do think Implo has some things to gain here. I'm not super familiar with him but I think it may be something that's kind of expected from him, this sort of analysis. I think it's less powerful in making Implo getting super townread (cause sure, EV is something anyone can do), but it creates a presence in thread and makes him less appealing as a lim.

I've explained my reads on everybody. I believe I've gone into at least some detail on why I am reading players as town. It's not really surprising, or it shouldn't be.

can you explain the implosion townread?

I liked their early analysis and their EV posting. It is a lazier read admittedly, but I don't see their posting as scummy.

Like hey, look at this! Dunn's stance on Implo shows why it's good for Implo to do. His posting is seen as helpful and denser. It all gives the idea that we should give him a day 1 pass, which I mention here:

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Ultimately posting about the EV probably goes with Implo's meta, creates thread presence and feels helpful. It's definitely been beneficial.
The downside you mentioned is us knowing spare was better, but:
1. Pretty sure people were already leaning that way? (At least I was)
2. People are naturally gonna lean towards spare as it's the unique option (otherwise we're just playing a mountainous, which I enjoy but is definitely less exciting)
3. If there is meta on Implo being good at EV, NOT taking the stance that spare is correct could then reflect negatively.

[Meuh]

I will say this stance feels a bit spontaneous given that it has posts from much earlier in the thread

Why point it out now

Meuh

?

Some were things I saw when first reading the game, but it's also little details that made me go "hmmmm" when I skimmed Implo's ISO before voting there yesterday. There's also specifically that Implo's recent posting, which I see in a more negative light, has little issues in it that I also remembered seeing earlier. The mention of Sakura already being townread got linked to him saying the same thing about Dann, the specificity of reads and single-post-focus is also something I had already picked up on a bit and his stance on Ari I was already confused by. The seeds were there, me taking another look at the ISO to analyze his townreads just made them sprout.

[Meuh]

Dear Meuh, you spend two of the few content posts you've arguing against Sakura and in the first "perplexed" sounds like it has a negative connotation, but by the end...you find her townie?

Hmmmm

Were you planning to betray me again?!

VOTE: Meuh

The word “perplexed” is deliberate there, it’s negative in terms of her ideas, that seem out there to me, but not her actual alignment.
I argue against

Keyleth’s argument

(which was bad regardless of Sakura’s alignment), then took a look at the ISO and got vague townvibes
You’re imagining implications for reads from the surface of my posting and not the actual thought process I have, there’s no read on Sakura that I actually voice before I agree with Ari, you’re drawing that line, and you’re wrong for doing that! Raises your scum equity a bunch cause I think you’re capable of more substantial reads, was wondering who would react when I agreed with Ari on Sakura, but this is sad…

Now here's the one that I actually found very off.

I think that Meuh's argument is actually objectively correct here. She said someone was, basically, weird. She then turned around and townread them. Which is fine I think that is a good progression that can easily come from town. What really stands out about this is the lack of teeth with regards to Shirou. She takes this bizarre middle ground where she calls him wrong, says he's imagining things, then calls him more equity scum because "he's capable of more substantial reads". All of this doesn't sit right at all, I think that if Meuh is town she is neither so performative about explaining what she was ""actually thinking"" and rather forces Shirou to justify his own position nor so wishy washy with regards to Shirou. I think that ending this by saying that it raises his scum equity a bunch without being willing to vote him is bizarre. I think that Meuh is factually not interested in solving Shirou by the way she played it but is also strangely defensive and I get big scum caught for wrong reasons / cross bus vibes from all of this.

I genuinely just don't know how to sort Shirou tbh
I've played twice with Shirou? One was a brief replace in as third party and the other was the game we've already brought up where I was scum, neither of which I really tried to sort Shirou so I have no real idea on how to do it now, and his posts are just kinda there. I would've wanted to push more had it not been for Shirou explaining the read on me and it being more sensical.

[Meuh]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?)

I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Anyone else find this scummy? Implo invoking how much a player is already being townread/thread consensus on an issue when posting his take on it is kind of off to me. It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town. It comes more from scum thinking about the optics and the ramifications of their read than a townie just dropping some thoughts.

Idk!
Idk. This is very fake and performative. I don't know what else to say about it. I don't think this is how town!Meuh presents thoughts like this if she has them. The content itself is like, milquetoast but the presentation pings me like mad.

Yeah I'm looking at Implo's ISO and there's nothing town indicative there!
The more substantial reads are townreads that are just really easy to make from an informed perspective. I don't think any of said townreads are pushing boundaries to an extent where I think Implo is particularly trying to sort people
The scumreads are just kind of boring and weak? Implo has little actual insight on it, I think the most substantial scum argument so far is the one against me which is super weak
There's just nothing there that actually indicates Implo thinking about the game like a townie

More fake performative etc.

More importantly is the phrasing of the scumreads. She says it's "easy to make from an informed perspective". Even ignoring the weird question of what that is even supposed to mean, the case is basically that Implosions townreads are all generally townread and his scumreads are weak. Which, well, sure. But this case is applicable to at least half of the lobby and it's something we're talking about constantly. It also caps off with "nothing actually indicates Implosion thinking of this game like a townie" which again like the earlier thing she isn't saying Implosion is scum she's saying there's no evidence Implosion is town and I verified this is not something that she does as a meta thing.

I think not being townie is much more pertinent in a game state where the issue we have is too many townreads

[Meuh]

I've also gone back and forth in my head a lot but Meuh saying stuff like "implosion doesn't have thoughts outside of thread" essentially trying to use the opposite of my logic on Dannflor is kinda out there. Like I can't call it scummy because it's just too out there but... I really struggle with believing Meuh sees me making that read and then immediately turns around and uses it against someone and it reads like just words to me, particularly when I feel like Implosion doesn't really exist exceptionally in the space of lacking an out of game continuity to his posting. And that's what Meuhs case really looks like to me, there's a lot of words but in the end the case boils down to Implosions positioning is rather milquetoast and I don't think it takes 700 words to say that, I think that town!Meuh just says I think this dude is taking boring positions and not really doing anything and I wanna vote him for it.

This game is going too fast

I unironically wish the game was literally double the length

That's an argument you used on Dannflor? This is a very self-centered reading of this lmao I didn't have any argument you used in mind there, it's just something I noticed

[Meuh]

Also like as a general rule I'm not saying never but town rarely write things like all the stuff Meuh wrote about the metaphor of the seeds and the watering and the sprouting, it happens on rare occasions

I can think of some reasons why this would be the case but am curious why specifically you think this is something that would be really rare from town.

Really rude to scumread me for being all poetic tbh

[Meuh]

I think the fact I'm being townread by the three players who are probably best equipped to form a good read on me from past experience (Ari, Merlyn, Dunn) is telling

[Meuh]

Making me realize how little of this playlist I've actually played with before
Meh you can mislim me and then next time I play with you all, maybe you won't

[Meuh]

I feel like I've used weird analogies and stuff as town before, I like using flowery (hehe get it?) words to explain my thought processes

[Meuh]

Should probably move your vote then :3

[Meuh]

Meuh

how do you feel about 1236? And

Merlyn

as a whole by extension?

Echoing this

I do still feel like Merlyn is just town and I'm uninterested in pushing there
I would act all high and mighty because I caught scum Merlyn in another game, but I mostly caught her off of the person she replaced's ISO so I can't even take credit here

I like beeboy. The push on him doesn't feel right. It might be town that's just happy to put there vote somewhere

I don't agree with

Sakura

or

Mandate

pushes.

How do you feel about

Meuh

?

Do you think they were scum driven?

I feel iffy. I feel like I am actually good at reading town Meuh. She's kind of spicy with takes but tends to be right. So I'm kind of waiting for that to happen and if it doesn't then I'll know

(I'm also very much pocketed by the idea of me having good reads)

I feel like these posts are relevant to quote
I do think those spicy takes are a trait of my town game so it feels accurate?
Merlyn notably feels less stiff than the scum game I played against her, I'd say? I don't think I was super great at parsing her there but her posting here generally feels more natural, I like it.
She also got a taste of my scumgame in this game (viewtopic.php?t=91116) before she cross-killed me!!!! which also justifies her confidence here

[Meuh]

Making me realize how little of this playlist I've actually played with before
Meh you can mislim me and then next time I play with you all, maybe you won't

If you and implo are town then who's scum

Fuck if I know
Beeboy I guess?

[Meuh]

Shirou could also just be scum yeah
Alisae but that's laaaaaaaaame

[Meuh]

Taly please find scum :(

[Meuh]

Curious about you not mentioning Merlyn anywhere there

[Meuh]

I definitely need to give Dann a second glance, though.

[Meuh]

Beeboy/me towncore so real

For real this time?

[Meuh]

Mandate get better reads

[Meuh]

How's it going Taly?

[Meuh]

I have not played mafia in four years.

I made my account 2 and a half years ago? How could we have played together

[Meuh]

VOTE: Madate

[Meuh]

I have not played mafia in four years.

I made my account 2 and a half years ago? How could we have played together

I love playing with Mandate and Meuh the accounts that were made before 2016 when I was most active.

9 year old Meuh was the best mafia player

[Meuh]

i think alisae is more likely to get demotivated as scum based off my recent experience with er

Yeah I agree with this
Don't see why we shouldn't give e more time to do stuff before settling on read there, though

[Meuh]

VOTE: Dannflor

[Meuh]

:(

[Meuh]

I’m town though

[Meuh]

Your town but the only people you want to vote are people who your top townread has called town and you have no interest in going after people shading someone you consider obvtown? Strange

Wow so true!!!!!!

[Meuh]

Also you’re*

[Meuh]

:(

[Meuh]

uh meuh is the slot in the game I would classify the most as "trying to get town read." I think the implosion case was kind of out of place in a way that I don't really understand why town Meuh got to the point where they felt confident enough in the read to make such a huge case. When I read the case I also don't get the sense meuh is genuinely that confident about it. Mandate said something like it being a bunch of reasons as to why implosion could be scum, and it's for that reason I don't really understand the town!meuh headspace where she felt the need to suddenly hard case implosion

It's not a hard case though
Taly asked a question, asking for examples of Implo's townreads being bad. I was like "hey Implo's ISO is like 90% not reads, I can just do every town read" and then I just did that
Came out of it with substantial overarching feelings that I then shared through that post
I guess like it's de facto a case but idk it was never that to me, it was answering that question with some ideas that came through along with it

[Meuh]

I do want to get townread, I don't like getting mislimmed and it's been very easy for that to happen lately

[Meuh]

Good morning fellow Toriel’s Patience players

[Meuh]

I don’t think I’m a very good Ali reader tbh…

[Meuh]

I think I like e vibe wise but content wise, very meh

[Meuh]

The big focus on activity (and the long post about it) are both really offputting though

[Meuh]

Dannflor
Aristeia was replaced by Random Nurse
Lazy Shirou
Brown Eyes
Alisae
implosion
beeboy

Kind of tempted to remove Beeboy from POE though

[Meuh]

how do you feel about

freedom's

response to you/

implosion

?

The entirety of the read seems to hinge on an Implosion townread that hasn’t been explained? So I’d like some sort of explanation there
Freedom doesn’t seem to have an actual read on me individually
I just kinda want more explanation and information around it

[Meuh]

Going on a spiel, I think that the only scum!implo world is where Meuh is also scum.
At least, based off my knowledge of scum!implo, he is more than likely to bus D1.
That being said, I think town!implo is much more likely.

This seems like a big jump though, especially since Freedom doesn’t seem to have an actual read on me

[Meuh]

and also convenient, cause that logic allows Freedom to never vote Implo before me

[Meuh]

VOTE: Freedom

[Meuh]

I view votes more as a tool to nudge the game in certain directions than one to get someone limmed, unless we’re in a situation where a lim is going to happen soon. Freedom’s intro is bad but doesn’t outweigh Merlyn’s general towniness. It’s bad enough for me to want to nudge that way, though.

[Meuh]

Dannflor
Aristeia was replaced by Random Nurse
Lazy Shirou
Brown Eyes
Alisae
implosion
beeboy

Kind of tempted to remove Beeboy from POE though

VOTE: Freedom

Also, you've been in the hot seat for a lot of the day, sorry if you've said this already but have you noticed any differences in the way people have wanted to vote, and or push you? Wolfy or towny?

Not sure exactly what you’re asking here? Can you reformulate

[Meuh]

Going on a spiel, I think that the only scum!implo world is where Meuh is also scum.
At least, based off my knowledge of scum!implo, he is more than likely to bus D1.
That being said, I think town!implo is much more likely.

This seems like a big jump though, especially since Freedom doesn’t seem to have an actual read on me

I'm saying that based off what I know of implo's scumgame and I'm leaning towards implo being town so it isn't really a read on you.

Did you take into consideration the viability of bussing in this setup? I feel like it's generally relevant and especially is for a player like Implo who seems like the type to take into account when playing

[Meuh]

It's a stance that feels simultaneously underbaked and super specific and that's what makes me take issue with it, it makes it feel like it's likely to be backed by an agenda

[Meuh]

I'm "unimpressed" with Meuh posts so far, nothing that makes me think she's town

She can argue it's for "nudging" but voting a slot she was previously townreading rather than one of the people in her PoE is just whacky to me

Feels like she's trying to explore wagon options

Happy keeping my vote there at the moment

She had half the plist including

implo

as null to my understanding, so I don't know if this justification holds much water.

Pretty sure Shirou was referring to my vote on Freedom I put down to nudge there, not my read on Implo

[Meuh]

I have not hated Meuh's most recent posting in terms of analyzing the replacements

she feels pretty relaxed and natural, but I also do not think this type of posting is especially hard to fake for her

I still mostly just don't think that the amount of effort that went into her case on implosion matches the kind of understated read in 1354 and 1355

like it's not clear to me why meuh's read on implosion suddenly requires a giant case wall

yes people asked her for reasons but when people ask me for reasons i usually engage with them like one or two reasons at a time, i don't start dissecting their ISO

so it feels kind of performative and it doesn't fit with my model of how a town player would be approaching a read like that

This is irritating cause I can see where it comes from but I also can't really ever reconcile this!!
The best justification I can provide I suppose is my general mentality around the time, but I can't say I remember it super vividly and even if I did, I'm not sure it actually helps you much
To me, diving into Implo's ISO gave me that sort of feeling I get when I'm convinced I'm unravelling the game and finding things out, I get really passionate and invested and it all comes into often long posts that are kind of showing the narrative forming in my head to others. I'd say the main issue is that this feeling wasn't as fully realized as previous times? The passion and the confidence still existed but to a lower extent and it's created this weird post that isn't fully fleshed out and isn't confident in the ways I have in the past while still creating this narrative in the way those other posts did. I'd compare it to this post viewtopic.php?p=13906472#p13906472 (I'm really proud of that one actually that post is great) or this one viewtopic.php?p=13763322#p13763322
I'd say my lack of strong scumreads kind of pushed me towards feeling more strongly even with a smaller amount of scumminess, because every scummy thing felt more significant, and felt more worth sharing in a game state paralyzed by a lack of scumreads.

[Meuh]

Dannflor
Aristeia was replaced by Random Nurse
Lazy Shirou
Brown Eyes
Alisae
implosion
beeboy

Kind of tempted to remove Beeboy from POE though

VOTE: Freedom

Also, you've been in the hot seat for a lot of the day, sorry if you've said this already but have you noticed any differences in the way people have wanted to vote, and or push you? Wolfy or towny?

Not sure exactly what you’re asking here? Can you reformulate

Sorry! I know my thoughts can come out a jumbled mess let me try again.

I think it's safe to say that you've probably been the most at risk for elim along with beeboy. If you're a villager, you have a much better view of the gamestate than us. Have you tried to differentiate the pushes against you? What ones seem in good faith vs the ones that don't?

You also townread beeboy, correct? Have you noticed anything off there as well?

This is a good question but I just don't have a real answer to it at this very moment
I want to come back to it when more mentally in the game cause it feels relevant

[Meuh]

VOTE: Alisae

[Meuh]

I'd say Alisae probably flips scum more often than I do

[Meuh]

I feel like me/Ali as back to back town flips is much more likely to happen than me/Implo

[Meuh]

Ali isn't really giving me anything to townread but on a gamestate level it does feel like that's what's about to happen
I'm not really under the impression that scum care whether I or Ali die and that's concerning

[Meuh]

Do you think my townread of

Implo

is poorly reasoned?

Who are you asking this to?

[Meuh]

I doubt anyone thinks boxed mac and cheese is better, it's mostly a convenience thing

[Meuh]

If majority is not achieved by deadline, I will privately contact the mafia to decide on behalf of the town.

[Meuh]

This was already mentioned, makes sense Bingle wouldn't know but how did Taly not know?

[Meuh]

That seems very silly but worth asking I guess

[Meuh]

VOTE: Shirou

[Meuh]

if both Ali/Meuh flip town on me I think this game could get spicy but right now I'm just bored waiting for the scummiest slots to die since I believe in my townblock

This is simply not a town Shirou mentality in my book
Even as "lazy" I just don't think Shirou gets so calm and okay with this

[Meuh]

Second page of the ISO just looks incredibly blegh all around

[Meuh]

iirc Shirou in Dance Party (as town) was all about pushing what he wanted, I feel like this circles back to earlier arguments, but Shirou is just way too passive

[Meuh]

Which would be more understandable if Shirou didn't have over 200 posts

[Meuh]

I simply think he doesn't care and I also think that scum doesn't care if I or Ali gets limmed here

[Meuh]

I can understand being lazier meaning less aggressive 1v1 with others and less engaged with the game (although I don't think Shirou is particularly disengaged), but I don't think it eliminates that passion and conviction that Shirou had in that game, it's just absent here

[Meuh]

here's my most recent scum game where i signed up as "lazy shirou" from the start too but quickly replaced myself as "Shirou" to tryhard given i was being suspected:

viewtopic.php?t=90333

i don't care to do that here or when i was fighting against mandate because although i very much would dislike being mislimmed for the second time ever (first was my second newbie game), i don't care about it enough to want to break my desire to be more casual here

as scum here i probably would have been more dramatic towards Mandate to attempt making our engagement look TvT, just like what i did towards town!Pooky pushing me in the game linked above

so yeah, i'm town and you're all welcome!

i don't mind never being spared that could be fun in its own way

i do dislike people putting me in the PoE for D1/D2 alongside Meuh/Ali when i think i've been significantly townier than either of them

even without any votes on me i feel slightly offended.

maybe i'm just not used to being suspected as town though

maybe i'll get more used to it this game

i'm trying my best to be a pleasant player to be around here

This feels like the way scum repackages frustration slightly to fit a town mentality and then posts it

[Meuh]

Ali is at E-2

I feel pretty okay about the lim

no other thoughts this game feels stagnated

Like is this town Shirou???

[Meuh]

Also if Shirou is town who's scum then??????

[Meuh]

Cause it's not me and it doesn't really feel like it's Ali right now

[Meuh]

meuh

can you link some of your town and scum games?

I've played scum 3 times this year:
viewtopic.php?t=91116
viewtopic.php?t=90239
viewtopic.php?t=90999

and 3 recent town games:
viewtopic.php?t=91473
viewtopic.php?t=91727
viewtopic.php?t=91199

[Meuh]

VOTE: Alisae

[Meuh]

VOTE: Freedom
I have more substantial feelings there at least

[Meuh]

I’ve been thinking about it and I think here more than in a regular game, we want more informative flips than just killing meh slots. Meh slots can just not be spared.

[Meuh]

More than whatever an Alisae flip would tell us

[Meuh]

Or at least tell me, I have little thoughts about Alisae

[Meuh]

I’ve been thinking about it and I think here more than in a regular game, we want more informative flips than just killing meh slots. Meh slots can just not be spared.

is freedom not a meh slot to you?

Alisae and Freedom are both meh in terms of alignment but Freedom is a meh with more energy to it
Alisae is meh
Freedom is

meh

[Meuh]

I think having two people in the slot helps with distinguishing associatives
Freedom and Merlyn both feel rougher around the edges in a way that would always make me question their alignment, but that I think could be more informative on a flip than Alisae’s posting that I just find less evocative

[Meuh]

I also think RH9 (I know it’s an alt but some amount of meta can still be applied) and Merlyn are easier for me to read than Alisae

[Meuh]

Or I guess read is irrelevant if they die, but I think just generally easier for me to understand

[Meuh]

I’d want to flip Alisae in a regular game cause Freedom would be easier to parse in the long run
The issue is that we’re town hunting, and the issues I have with Freedom’s posting kind of locks the slot out of being a good spare in my eyes?
Like for me, both Alisae and Freedom should never be spared, but we get the information of the flip from one of the players, and I’d rather that be Freedom
Though I should actually do the math on how low the playercount will get near the end, maybe there is a scenario where we have to spare a slot like Freedom

[Meuh]

and what do you think their flip informs us of?

Potential partners, the scum agenda
Seems like a setup where scum have to push a specific agenda to end up winning (especially if Dunn is town) and looking at what agenda’s being pushed is good and probably more discernable in a slot like Freedom

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

I think I'm probably being premature when my gut says to take Meuh out of the PoE; I think probably she should still be in there when compared with the rest of the game, she's had like, some good individual posts but I don't really feel like she's done much that isn't fakeable as a scum who pops in to the thread, does a round of Faking Stuff, then leaves; i.e., I don't think she has any particularly challenging-to-fake progressions, or particularly original/nuanced reasoning that would be hard to fake, or anything like that. A part of her recent posting feels a little bit defeatist, and I don't want to use that term in a negative way exactly - just like, compare someone like Taly, who seems viscerally annoyed that she keeps finding new reasons to townread people. Like, I suspect Taly is going to read this post I'm making right now and go "fuck, i guess i was right that implo was town" and be annoyed at that. I think that's the emotional state that this game is kind of imposing on townies, and I don't really get any feeling of deep concern over the correctness of Meuh's reads coming from her. She's kind of parked her opinion on me to be some sort of broad suspicion but not a push. She did the case on me after ISOing me but like, from what I can tell she has not substantively commented on a post I have made in around five days. I don't think that's the behavior of town who has the stance she does on me in the gamestate we're in, where like, I think the average voice in this game is mostly-but-not-confidently townreading me. She should be either talking to people about why I'm scum, or looking at my posts and evolving her read on me in response to them, or trying to suss me out, or like, interacting with me or my content in any way.

Unvote

VOTE: Meuh

I've re-convinced myself. Still okay with an Alisae lim as well now though, but.

This isn’t why Implo thinks I’m scum or how he convinced himself, it’s him justifying turning back.
On a surface level, the things I have done aren’t necessarily super helpful or justify a townread, but Implo never actually shows that he scumreads me. He’s just saying that the position in which I exist is one where a scumread on me is justifiable, and then plops a vote back down. To the people who think my Implo read lacks a backbone, this should be sounding the alarms.
He says he SHOULDN’T take me out of the POE. He says I SHOULD be more actively be trying to sort him. It’s going down a checklist of productive town behaviours and checking yes or no, it’s not trying to sort me.

[Meuh]

Sure I’m defeatist, sure I “should” be more actively sorting Implo, sure other townies have provided meatier content, sure my progressions can be faked.
But am I scum? Implo doesn’t ask himself that question. He just explains why a world in which I am scum can exist.

[Meuh]

Either Implo is scum who wanted to thoroughly outline reasons before voting me, or Implo is town who got actual townpings from me, but faced with the gamestate, forced himself back into a scumread on me, in which case I urge him to reconsider.

[Meuh]

So true

[Meuh]

why didn’t meuh respond to the freedom stuff and go back to the implo well

It’s easier

[Meuh]

I’m in class rn but I wanna ISO dive Freedom later since I should have time
How much time do we even have left? Also a vc would be nice

[Meuh]

I've skimmed Merlyn's ISO here along with her ISO in the two games I played with her where she was scum and a recent town game.
I'm... probably less confident than I should be after doing that, but I think her play resembles her towngame a bit more? Could always just be since the town game was more recent, but the little things I notice point towards town. I kind of took issue with the way she explained herself feeling a bit... not performative, not stiff, just kind of too clean? But checking her town game, that's also how she expresses herself there.
A lot of the back and forths with questions could indicate either alignment I guess, they don't feel like pointless meandering though? 982 slightly townpings me cause like does scum ask for that?
1235 feels a bit too out there to be scum
It just kinda adds up for me, I occasionally go ndfjushfuihf when looking at her ISO (931 fills me with dread) but there's things that feel a bit out of reach for scum Merlyn? I think my read of Merlyn being town for being less stiff is bad and I was right to dismiss it, but I think there's townie inclinations in the way she posts and her overall view of the game
1461 comes more from town Merlyn, so does 247
UNVOTE:
Where's scum

[Meuh]

VOTE: Meuh

Deadline how I hate you for sneaking upon I.

This vote sure sucks

[Meuh]

I feel like there's scum in Keyleth/Sakura that have been missed

[Meuh]

The idea of someone following a read I made and then I getting it wrong is easily one of my biggest fears in mafia, people are probably way better at making reads than me so I don't mind just sitting here in my little corner.

UGhbjhbehjb this is town though

[Meuh]

Not like just that post specifically I skimmed that ISO it's good

[Meuh]

byudyuwdywY Sakura should definitely not be confidently townbinned here

[Meuh]

But also there are good posts

[Meuh]

I guess i'll go play some videogames, and come back with a clearer mind.
Then i'll try to figure out this mess.
But there's one thing that's been bugging me.
And that is Alisae.
I dont think Alisae Scum makes the kind of posts e did towards me.
In fact sometimes i think that i'm eir literal focus this entire phase.
Yet if Alisae's town, then i'm wrong somewhere.
And i need to figure out where my head is at.
My gut's telling me to vote freedom.
My mind's telling me to stay on Meuh.
My townreads say freedom's likely town.
My heart says Meuh's likely town.

I don't even know where to go anymore

Flips table

Ok, rant over, maybe i do really need to clear my head a bit.

Like this makes Sakura scum a hard pill to swallow

[Meuh]

I'm not sure I fully buy the general "I'm bad at the game please help me" sentiment though

[Meuh]

IDk a lot of the posting around her lack of confidence doesn't fully click for me? It makes me scared

[Meuh]

I feel like after the replacements my WIM took a big hit, which caused me to get stuck i feel like i'm reading things and nothing's sticking, i don't even know what to make of Alisae's reply to me.

Eh, I feel like i'm just grapsing for straws at this point.
Trying to find other scumreads instead of just sheeping Mandate's case.
But I keep getting stuck everytime i try.

Maybe it's too performative????

[Meuh]

lol.

I still cant shake that weird feeling i got from Merlyn back when she voted me.

Expand perhaps?

It's hard to explain, so i'll just call it gut, but if i tried... idk, like, it felt like someone wanting to jump in to dismantle one of the most townread players in the game?, i don't remember anymore, also dont even remember if i explained it back then, but all I remember is that after i got a plausible explanation for Dann i just backed off and forgot about Merlyn... i think?

Sakura focuses a LOT on the way other people townread her and justification for it, and says she's scared of being pocketed and all, so it does kind of stick out to me here the way she draws back on that scumread to establish a progression long-term.
Like she engages with reads on her a bunch, but this one that she loops back around to is one of the only scumreads?
and it doesn't feel like Sakura's paranoia to be pocketed and the townreads surrounding her really amounts to anything unless I'm missing something
Makes a lot of her less confident posting feel iffier

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

Like that's the one thing on my head, i dont think at the time (although i cant remember havent double checked) anyone was specially suspecting implo, and as scum he could've stayed silent about the EVs and go with whatever better strategy for his scumteam would be.
Or am i just looking too much into something that's NAI.

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?), Mandate town (...) I thought Mandate's opening was slightly +town even from someone who is clearly gimmicking and I like the timing of the Taly vote on page 4 quite a lot. Dann is townish just for voting like 8 times in 4 pages.

149 is actually an interesting post and probably true of me bc I probably would have explained things in the scum PT at some point, alas. Probably +town (maybe strongly) for Brown Eyes to point out an observation like that, it's an observation that could easily just never be made by anyone. Dunn calling Brown Eyes town shortly after this is slightly good for Dunn (who I don't really have much of a read on at this point).

Mandate town is easy to say, Implo just proceeds to point out bad posts
It's a read I agree with but also like, naturally easy to fake
Dann read is, as Implo himself pointed out, what a lot of other people were already thinking, easily fakeable.
The Brown Eyes townread is probably the best read Implo has, but 1. I think it's something he could still notice and then comment on, and 2. it's a read based off of a singular post. I think this comes back around later with the Sakura read and it's interesting the way that Implo is laser focusing on a single post, I think it makes it easier for him to argue a scumread but also feels less townie because well, there's a whole bunch of other posts to consider! This is something that comes back a few times, the specificity of the reads. It's always specific things being pointed out and being the reasoning for reads, which seems to me to come more from scum trying to make sure their reads are understood to be about a thing in particular. Scum really hate it when their ideas aren't clear, but townies are much more likely to make broad statement about other people's posting and the general vibes from said posting. But for Implo it's almost always one post or another, never a player's general direction.

221 is a pretty good point (on Keyleth being town) and probably +town a bit for Sakura. To elaborate a bit since it came into question why I think it's +town for Keyleth, the post is just very frank about what it's trying to do. I think scum on average will tend to shy away from a post that's like "hey, we already have me + x as town, who are the other two" particularly in the context of Keyleth having some heat on her. It's not a slam dunk or anything, but I think it's very easy to glance at that post and briefly *think* it's a slam dunk before you've thought it through intensely, hence Sakura is slightly townish for it (but only slightly and this paragraph is already way too long)

This is like, fine, but also something Implo can just say about a town Sakura. I guess the point about it being surface-level scummy but actually town indicative is cool, but it's also the exact angle Implo would be able to argue from with the knowledge that Sakura is town and the thread otherwise disliking that post from her.

i can see 449 being townish, 378 is kind of eh though.

ARE YOU STILL GLAZING OVER THEM

yes

Meh

Somewhat inclined to trust Ari on Sakura.

explain the mandate tr plz

wasn't to me but mandate is extremely town in my eyes.

They have all the right stances at all the right times. The way they're thinking about the game feels right, I liked their opening, I liked the evolution of their taly+keyleth team read, I like the evolution of their stances in general, like, the townread on sakura a page or two ago is good for example

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

i think dannflor's first 10 or however many pages were really town, i'm not interested in voting for dannflor unless time passes and he falls off (which could happen but time has not yet passed).

Just kind of reiterating that read without anything new, but making sure to keep the door open for a future vote. So like all this accomplishes is setting things up so Implo can vote for Dann later? Which is also something Implo ends up saying about me. Can't say I'm a big fan of these posts anticipating votes instead of just voting when it feels right to. Feels overly careful.

yeah sure whatever taly is town probably

Taly makes a bunch of good posts (including a vote on Dann, notably) and then Implo pops in with this. I guess it's alright I dunno

Relevantly the coalition game that I was in w Ari and Merlyn just ended today and I was scum so I have some extremely fresh scum meta, which is almost never true of me lol

I think it gave me a pretty good sense of some things from Ari to be on the lookout for as reasons to townread her. If I were a man of more patience I would go back and reread the game from forever ago where she snowed me as scum but i am not going to do that probably ever lol

He acts all murky about Ari for a while, then says he can have better reasons to townread her now, and then doesn't elaborate. Only been 24 hours tbf but his positioning around Ari is definitely odd. Feels like he's scared of her.

VOTE: Implosion
Let's nudge here, why don't we?

VOTE: implosion

????

You know what, i'm not gonna ask anymore, i'm just gonna hope someone that's good at the game gives me some guidance while I figure out where my head is at.

I think this reaction would be kind of incredible to fake as scum. Like, I've been vaguely lurking and beeboy has been talking about thinking their wagon was scum driven and so i feel like replying to beeboy jumping on me with a ???? after beeboy just listed me near the bottom of their reads list the previous page is just like, something scum who care sharply about how they're perceived would never do. I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Like Sakura pointed out, this is very much echoing previous sentiments about her. There's a lot of words so it feels good but the crux of it is "Sakura doesn't care about how she's seen" which like true, but also applies to other posts of her and has already been mentioned.

I have very mixed feelings on beeboy's current trajectory. I think the part of it that I see as unlikely to come from scum is that just literally calling every single person on your wagon scum is I think a somewhat unnatural reaction to have as scum, I think as scum you get to choose what your reads are and so the normal thing to do is to like, pick a token person on your wagon whomst you will say is actually town and then lambast the rest of it. The counterpoint to this is that beeboy is coming back from a long break so I could see them theoretically being kind of lazy as scum and just falling in to pushing all the people pushing them. But I think I am tending to think it's probably town, I don't really see a good reason for scum beeboy to decide to wake up and choose violence in this way. It just kind of puts them at the center of narratives and in the spotlight and embroils them in conflict and idk what the point would be when simpler options exist.

In a dramatic turn of irony i am now going to call beeboy the only townie on my wagon (nah but i am about to call meuh scum i think)

I think Implo not noticing the mention that Taly had been on the Beeboy wagon and that Beeboy was townreading her isn't a very good look... feels odd to drop a read like this but then also just not see 1281 which is quite literally 2 pages earlier, and right after Beeboy's readlist. But like regardless, the argument here is just that scum!Beeboy would not take the stance that his wagon is scumlead cause that makes conflict? Which sure is fine I guess

Anyway. Let's wrap up the post chain with a summary of where I'm at with everyone.

Very Much Locktown: Mandate, Sakura. It'd take a hell of a lot to convince me away from either of them.

Town: Brown Eyes, Keyleth

Probably Town but not as confident as above: beeboy, Dunn (only townread I think I haven't talked about at all yet, but kind of a gut feels-like-he's-playing-like-i-remember-his-towngame-looking)

Town, but will need to be audited sooner than other townreads: Dannflor

Town, but I still have reservations: Taly

Still gotta sort: Ari, Merlyn, Alisae

Also in the still gotta sort tier, but I'm choosing to put him separately not because I think he's scummier than the other people in the tier but because it'll make him angry: Shirou

I saw a thing I don't like and don't remember seeing anything I thought was particularly town but I am definitely going to go look over more stuff later: Meuh

Brown Eyes and Keyleth seemingly haven't changed in Implo's eyes since like his second post? I think the specific mention of the Dunn townread not being spoken about yet is another one of those things that could theoretically be said by town, but that I think scum are more likely to notice. Him elaborating on that read but not some of the older reads that he hasn't touched on in ages very much gives that scummy feel of a player sticking to exactly what's been said before and only deviating on an explicit mention of the contrary.
Definitely curious about his progression on Taly, cause it very much swung with the way the thread was going, which feels convenient.

Overall:
-His town reads feel white knighty
-He feels scared of Ari
-His stance of Taly is convenient
-It feels like he has a need to make his stance exceedingly clear and doesn't like leaving things vague (which is very much a scum perspective)
-There's an almost total lack of progression that feels like it's happening outside of the thread. Every little change in Implo's view of the game is stated in thread. He's not developing a full view of the game on his own, he's dropping thoughts in thread and those thoughts alone are his stance in the game.

VOTE: implosion

Sakura what's your general readslist

I townread almost everyone and i think i need a reset.
Don't townread Alisae, implosion kinda fell off, wasn't townreading Meuh initially until the implosion case, don't townread Brown Eyes, Don't townread Merlyn.

Actually might be better to look at the actual playerlist because I keep forgetting people.

Dannflor - Eh towny?
Aristeia - Idk
Lazy Shirou - Idk
Brown Eyes - Idk
Dunnstral - Most likely town
Meuh - Most likely town
Merlyn - Idk
Keyleth - Town
Mandate - Town
Alisae - Idk
Taly - Town
implosion - Probs scum
beeboy - Town

Actually I townread a lot less people than i thought i did.

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

Okay, now I'm getting frustrated. When I explain why Sakura is town and mention that she's a consensus townread, it's scummy. When I explain why Mandate is town but don't mention that they're a consensus townread, it's scummy. Am I not allowed to have opinions about consensus townreads? Like, you say this about consensus townreads:

It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town.

And now you say this:

I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

As though it

should

be a consideration that I have when posting reads as town, because it's scummy to post a townread on someone who is already consensus town.

Huh, this is a good point actually.

I'm still not entirely sure who's the one pulling a fast one on me here, and i'm currently too tired. But since there's a chance my vote is in the wrong place right now i'll just remove it for the time being.
UNVOTE:

Man, this is the downside of being a consensus townread i feel like people keep pulling my arms in different directions until they rip them off my body or something.
Either way, i'm not placing down a vote until i finish my nap.

Okay, reading that with a fresh mind, i guess it makes sense.
VOTE: Meuh

Making me realize how little of this playlist I've actually played with before
Meh you can mislim me and then next time I play with you all, maybe you won't

If you and implo are town then who's scum

I guess the most important things of note,

Meuh made a case against implosion, implosion responded, your predecessor called it the scummiest post ever and went against Meuh, I sheeped him,

then Ari stated a scumread on implo, your predecessor and Dann, then your predecessor exploded, argued with Ari, things escalated and both replaced out.

And Alisae has been absent the entire game.

There's other things that have happened but those are the ones i have the most fresh on my memory.

This is bad, right??? Am I just way off or is this just not a townie?

[Meuh]

The way she moves away from that townread on me is just
wow

[Meuh]

That initial question of if Implo would do EV as scum and Sakura's progression around it is so odd
She says it's what's on her mind for why Implo would be town in response to me throwing shade there.
Then I drop my long post on Implo (not addressing this supposedly big thing holding her back from scumreading Implo?)
and then I respond and explain why Implo could do EV as scum, which she never engages with
Doesn't help that I have a hard time believing that logic keeping anyone from voting Implo in the first place, it feels so weak

[Meuh]

Are you referring to Mandate as RC here?

[Meuh]

VOTE: Sakura

[Meuh]

Pretty sure people have said Mandate was someone else? But idk it's not something I really care about

[Meuh]

Idk I think the Meuh Implo case is by far the scummiest thing in the game right now

If you have the energy to do so, can you explain why.

internal screaming

I've been struggling to even find scum in this game, i see finally someone post a case on someone that looks decent so i sheep them and now i'm being told that the case is the scummiest thing in the game. How do you think THAT makes me feel.

Smh I made my Meuh case because you wanted to lazily sheep someone and then you just unvote

Angry

RC or not, you seem to have overlooked this, removing context to paint me in a scum color as a last ditch effort? Can't tell if you're hoping to miselim me before deadline or you're actually town that's hungry for scumreads here. As I don't see a reason for scum you to do this unless it's for the former.

Those posts weren't relevant to my perspective here and seeing them highlighted doesn't really do much for me

[Meuh]

I guess they're relevant but like, they don't challenge what I see is what I mean

[Meuh]

VOTE: Meuh

Deadline how I hate you for sneaking upon I.

This vote sure sucks

I feel like there's scum in Keyleth/Sakura that have been missed

The idea of someone following a read I made and then I getting it wrong is easily one of my biggest fears in mafia, people are probably way better at making reads than me so I don't mind just sitting here in my little corner.

UGhbjhbehjb this is town though

i really dont follow this read progression, can you elaborate?

Keyleth's vote caught my eye (like, prior to this evening) and I waned to take a second look at her ISO at some point, but the Freedom slot was my first priority
Having come to the town Freedom conclusion, I was looking for where else scum could be. Keyleth was a slot I wanted to take a look at already (gave some town pings, but the unanimity of it didn't necessarily feel right to me and the read relied more on older posts), I felt similarly about Sakura, who's kind of in a similar place in my mind for those same reasons
To me it made sense for scum to exist there
Keyleth unfortunately looked like a townie, so I turned to Sakura to get insight there

[Meuh]

i also keep passively trying to get

meuh

to challenge me and it never happens, which makes me consider a lack of self-belief in being town.

I’m town btw

[Meuh]

You have to understand, I think it's 8 to elim since 14 players.
The doublevoter is not voting.
Village needs 8 votes to vote off a wolf while Mafia needs to convince 5 villagers. If you convince the doublevoter, you need to convince 3 villagers other villagers.

meuh

is probably the one slot

dunn

has actively resisted a wagon or potential elimination on, i dont think mafia would passively choose this slot to secure a miselimination.

Don’t I have like 7 votes? Didn’t seem to have been too difficult to me

[Meuh]

Has any other wagon gotten anywhere?

[Meuh]

Eesh with Alisae/Beeboy/Freedom being the most significant wagons other than me, we were never hitting scum today were we

[Meuh]

who would you spare

meuh

?

Dunn (if that counts)/me (that counts)/You/Ydra/Beeboy

[Meuh]

I don’t really have a solid townbloc at this point (nor do I think it’s high priority despite Shirou asking for townblocs and others being happy with that)

[Meuh]

VOTE:

Beeboy

My main thought in 34/35 waa Beeboy scum and then suddenly an avalanche of votes on 36
I’ve already been voting Beeboy since RVS but I’ll vote again to be all dramatic about it
VOTE: Beeboy

VOTE: Alisae

VOTE: Alisae

VOTE: Freedom

VOTE: Freedom
I have more substantial feelings there at least

Repeat that again?

What do you mean by

"we're never hitting scum today if its

alisae/beeboy/freedom

"

?

I’ve had clear progression on both Beeboy and Freedom at the very least lmao
I like recent Alisae posting

[Meuh]

idk if you’re town i’m really struggling i guess to find you. like even nitpicky things are jumping out to me (saying freedom was unfortunately townie) and nothing else feels worth switching to wagon for me

I said unfortunately cause I wanna find scum
Also I think I was talking about Keyleth but I don’t think that really matters

[Meuh]

give me a succinct reason for

sakura

scum

Fake-feeling lack of confidence, odd treatment of townreads around her, paranoia mismatched with actual progression, not assuming her stances and delegating them to others

[Meuh]

yeah the point was more about the message

If me saying that someone is “unfortunately” townie when I’m struggling to find scum is some sort of scum tell to you then idk what to say

[Meuh]

Still town

[Meuh]

Yay we did it! Thanks for modding Isis, had fun
Definitely a solid playerlist too

[Meuh]

Should've pocketed Shirou...

[Meuh]

Mountainous open but with a twist is my favourite game type tbh

[Meuh]

The good news is that whenever people scumread me now, I can point to this game and say no one can read me

[Meuh]

Meuh's elimination was the only one that ate me inside to do, but i had to do it coz i was scum.

<3

[Meuh]

I think I was more readable near the end, I was getting into the swing of things
But me just kinda being there for a long time + POE + low time left made that less impactful

[Meuh]

I wanna play another game with this exact playerlist as scum it sounds fun

[Meuh]

(Also excruciating but that's just mafia for you)

[Meuh]

Yeah that's fair, setup didn't do any favours... feels like a scary group though!!! Everyone's so good