Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

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Hi guys, I'm going to try to read the whole thread today, I've got the day off and it's short. I'll post a couple intermittent thoughts as I go along, will try not to run off at the keyboard too much.

This is my first game on Mafiascum but I've played a bunch in real life. I've read a few games on here and read some of the strategy articles and forum posts. Thanks to Not_Mafia for taking a chance on me, I'll do my best not to be an idiot. Thanks for having me.

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Okay, 10 pages in out of 20, I guess I should post some rough thoughts/reads:

Thor665: Crazy and/or scum, Initially I was thinking crazy town, then scum, then crazy scum and at this point I'm kind of back to crazy town?

Droog: Initially I had him as scummiest, but during the annoying Thor fight, he seemed pretty pro town, so he's back to normal at this halfway point, leaning town.

Shaddowez: Town Lurker, I got a sort of town read on him early, and the wgeurts vote doesn't change that for me.

Acryon: slightly scummy, was out of it for the first day, so not too sure on this

Phillammon: Towny once he finally started talking

Blair: Initially I thought pretty towny, then seemed like maybe scummy trying to exploit a crazy Thor, and now I'm kind of back to even.

Dyslexicon: No real read one way or the other.

Bins/Fokem: Still hasn't said anything.

So yeah, these are all changing as the page goes on, I'll have more final thoughts in a couple hours, but figured I should post at least

something

at the halfway mark, and it's nice to have a record for myself of my current feelings. May as well make it public.

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Top of page 15 update (almost caught up!)

Droog has become my most solid town read, just all-around pushing things in the right direction, trying to curb some of the play that seems actively anti-town.

Phillammon looks much worse, seems stretching a lot for pushing any of several mislynches in #328, especially as reading through this, the several clarifications on the case on my predecessory were lost in the noise to me reading it, I find it hard to believe it's so obvious and unlikely to him that others could also lose that in the noise.

Thor665 has done much more harm than good in my opinion. Still can't tell whether or not this makes him scum, but he has made this catching up extremely painful and I think helped others to stay in the background without a lot to go on. I'm 50-50 on him being scum at this point, but I think he's certainly helping them, deliberately or accidentally.

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... and I'm caught up!

Is acryons terrible argument a plot to get us to town read him

Does anyone understand his argument
I can't see scum making it otherwise

My thoughts exactly on this. I think acryon's argument is dumb, but I think it's probably town.

Blair was towny at the start and recently, but the way she kept engaging with Thor seemed suspicious while reading it. But I think that the most logical explaination at this point is that she got understandably frustrated with Thor and wouldn't let it drop.

Shaddowez still seems like a townish lurker to me, but there still isn't that much to go on.

Droog is still my top town read.

Bins hasn't really said enough for me to form much of an opinion, but I certainly think there are better targets today.

Dyslexicon has really stepped it up in this last page, but I never felt terribly negative about her anyway.

So I'm most inclined to vote for Thor or Phillammon. I don't understand why Thor should get a free pass for wasting countless pages with unhelpful non-responses, circular arguments, and just making everything painful to read and generally upping the uselessness level of that reading since the vast majority of the talking is people having stupid arguments with him. He's hurting the town either as crazy town or as crazily brave scum. I think 50-50 he's scum, and if he's town, we'd be better off without him. If that wagon gets going I would totally vote Thor.

But my top scumread is Phillammon, mostly for post #328 as I said before. I'll post a more detailed thing on that in a moment, but for now:

VOTE: Phillammon

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So while I agree with many of the points in the previous post on Phillammon, in typing up my own, I've realized that my primary reasons for voting him are actually pretty tied into my own knowledge that the YYR slot is Town. So if you think I'm scum, disregard this and only pay attention to the other one I guess.

Some big quotes behind these spoilers, really I want them here for a reference so they're all in one place, I'd say don't bother rereading them if you don't feel you need the reference.

So for context, I want to quote

Spoiler: Phillammon's case on YYR

Scummy:

YYR

- I'd like to emphasize hard that this is NOT a solid scumread, it's just... it's about equal parts gut and the phrasing in posts #53 and #99 that just ever so slightly worry me. It's not much, but YYR's the only player who, to my eyes, has not done anything particularly townish while giving me a gut feeling on them of scum.

YYR's interaction with Johnny seemed to be confined to the discussion of Johnny's meta, which I'm not a fan of. It might just be me being dense, but I don't see YYR so much as insinuating that Johnny is scum until #99, which was after the flip, and as I said, the specific wording of that post had me a bit on edge. There are repeated references to scumJohnny in YYRs ISO, but mostly in relation to Cheetory's (scarily accurate) read, rather than any of his own, as far as I can tell (and, as mentioned earlier, with regards to the clarification and meta thereupon).

i feel the same way
if only because yyr's passes at scumhunting were so disappointing

would you lynch after wgeurts?
(if you're reading this i give you permission to hammer btw)

Even though it's apparently an unpopular opinion, I'm still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town. If, on the other hand, Wgeurts flipped scum, I think I'd have to do a more thorough analysis of scum interactions to see if there's any more to go by. I have a bad feeling that Fokem (or Fokem's slot) may be scum, which would explain why there aren't any slots jumping out at me as excessively scummy.

VOTE: YYR. Basically nothing has changed in my reads with wgeurts' flip, so my suspicion is still on him for the same reasons.

but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

Regarding YYR's interaction around Johnny: I have no idea what he was doing, but I want to talk about it for a moment. YYR essentially says nothing about Johnny other than that he doesn't buy Cheetory's playing-along response and then seems to stick with that weird vote on Cheetory, defend Johnny lightly "Debating whether Johnny would make such a weak push on a Blair as a scummate. Seems a little too weak for it to be the strong busing I know Johnny is willing to do. Don't know how much he'd be willing to do in for this setup, though. Meh." (Reading this for the third time, I can totally see the suspicion now.) And that's it.

So my problem, and the reason I'm throwing out a chunk of this and revising is that I think YYR does look suspicious, and if you suspect my slot, my main reason for voting Phillammon doesn't make any sense: it's predicated on me being town. Makes the ammount of quote searching I did on Phillammon seem kind of pointless now...

Anyway, here it is:

My fenceposting on you

(Blair)

has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

It's this right here that bugs me the most about him. My slot, the YYR slot,

WAS

garnering votes due to inactivity, at least that's how I read Droog's initial vote. Now it wasn't

only

due to inactivity, and I have no idea what was going on with those initial few posts but I can see why that might also draw some votes. (Even stronger on the third read of that segment actually) But it's weird to dismiss that YYR's inactivity was a factor in putting votes on him (hoping he would speak up presumably). It seems to imply there is much more of a case on YYR than there actually was.

And I don't understand why defending an inactive account is suspicious when it seems like Blair's argument is that there are much better targets.

It is

also

weird to say that because Blair missed this, she must be scum or not paying attention (implying that people shouldn't listen to her other reads.) I had just read every damn post in the thread up to that point, and I had to go back looking for that stuff. It is a very easy sub-theme to get lost in the noise. And the other arguments that Phillammon had for YYR were 178 posts earlier in the thread.

My point being that there had been

very

little discussion about YYR in recent posts, just "nothing has changed since wgeurts flip" and "Still thinking YYR is where my next lynch would go if Wgeurts flipped town" so it's not surprising that Blair would have forgotten this (I know I did) but Phillammon makes it out to be so obvious and central, while at the same time throwing a bunch of suspicioun on Blair for not going with it.

When I read this the first time, and when I just reread it, it sounds like in post #328 Phillammon is trying to get something started on

either

YYR (who isn'th there to defend himself) or Blair. And both are so slim, but both kind of follow what other people (who have generally garnered townier reads) are already doing. It reads to me like scum noticing that there are two as-yet unformed wagons on townies and trying to ensure that one or the other of them takes off.

But anyway, then there's also all the better reasons posted in the post a couple up from this one. Sorry for the size of this, but after I said I'd post, I wanted to explain my thought process.

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Believe it or not, I actually cut some cruft out!

I'm brevity-challenged.

Responding to the substantive questions in a moment.

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On Dyslexicon "stepping it up"

I think my

main

reason is that she's been incredibly passive for most of the game, but these posts look like she went through pretty much post-by-post commenting on things from quite a ways back every time they stuck out to her, not just for one person but for every person. I think she put substantially more effort into it than I did, and I felt like I spent too long on reading this thread.

I think it would be much easier for her if she were scum to continue doing more-or-less what she's been doing, with a bit more talking now to try to throw us onto someone else. This amount of effort (which seems almost excessive) seems to me like a town-member who is feeling guilty for not helping more. That's awfully subjective, and sure, she could take advantage of that as scum (although I think it's not THAT likely from someone so inactive, but I'm new, so what do I know?) so here are a few other things:

She notes that Droog posts reactions to things in real time, Shaddowez "comes off as having nothing to hide", and wants you guys to talk about what we can read into alignment from people being replaced. I don't think these really count as scum-hunting in a particularly helpful sense, but they seem like things she's obsessing about that would not be so front-and-center in her mind if she were scum. And that she's putting these things out there allowing us to sort of examine them, which

is

helpful, and

not

in a way that really pushes any wagons. I think getting everyone to look at things like Shaddowez posting style will be good for town, regardless of Dyslexicon's alignment. I know it's given me some stuff to pay attention to that I wasn't before, and in a town-hunting way.

She picks Bins as a strongest town read, which is sort of an odd pick. I don't agree with it myself, but I don't find Bins scummy either. Anyway, it again seems like a read that had some serious thought and feeling into it, even if I don't totally agree, it seems like something real, not just posting an easy thing to get us off her back.

Provides a bit of both sides on Thor, not really building a case, but it doesn't look to me to be the buddying you see either. It looks like weighing out both sides out loud and letting us see the result, which is what I think happened.

Sure, this is all subjective, and could all be wrong, but it is

certainly

much higher effort than previous contributions. And it comes off pretty townie to me too, but that's besides the point that it's certainly a step up in terms of effort. It doesn't seem at all like someone who is commited to semi-lurking through the rest of the days with minimal posting.

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Oh! Just realized you were accusing me of not reading Dyslexicon's posts. I thought you were accusing me of insufficently editing my own (which is true.)

I did read Dyslexicon's posts in their entirety. Why did you think I didn't, Thor?

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On why I like Dyslexicon's case on Phillammon

As I see it, these are the central points: (with some commentary on them from me so it's not useless to read this)

• Phillammon telling wgeurts in post #134 ""If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads" I didn't notice this when I read through that exchange myself, but it does seem like the kind of thing where town should be worrying that wgeurts is idiot-scum, and thus should NOT be warning him of a potential trap. On the other hand, scum knew he was town and wouldn't really be thinking about it.
  
• Phillammon in post #183 getting on Blair with Thor for attacking him and using the word illogical. I think Dyslexicon's point was that this was sort of piling on, but something I notice thinking about it is that if Thor is town, this is kind of refueling the fire of the same dumb argument. It doesn't actually contribute to any real case on Blair (using the word illogical, really???) but it
  does
  contribute to keeping the same useless anti-town argument going with all the same repetitive requotes going nowhere.
  
• In post #275, setting up a future vote on YYR in the event that wgeurts flips town, but would do more analysis if wgeurts flips scum. But wgeurts is Phillammon's strongest scum-read (post #162), he doesn't want to do any more analysis now, and then he immeditaely moves onto YYR as was the plan. But why wouldn't his main plan be that wgeurts would flip scum as he had implied elsewhere. To me the implication is that he knew the answer.
  
• Stuff about post #328 that I can't even remember what I've said or not typing this. But that post is what put him on my scum-dar to begin with, it just bothered me in a bunch of ways.

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If you truly want to gain some useful information from a flip, shouldn't Bins and I both be allowed to live at least one day, so we have some more votes and talking to look through in light of our flips? There are 3 dead already, but the problem was they don't give very much information. Lynching the next two that would reveal the least seems weird.

Oh, and Thor is 2 people's #2 scum pick, which combined with acryon's vote means he has 3 people willing to vote for him, just like the others. Why write it off so quickly?

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My point, Thor, was that I'm not lurking, but YYR was. Scum or town, am I not providing more things to analyze after I'm dead than he was? Why isn't it valuable to allow me the time to vote a few more times, interact with more people etc. I'd think that would provide much more information. But if I had been lurking all game, I'd totally agree with you.

I'll think the same thing about Bins' replacement too. But am I being totally crazy here, because this makes sense to me?

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These two points went completely uncommented on, I'd like some thoughts please.

• Phillammon telling wgeurts in post 134 ""If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads" I didn't notice this when I read through that exchange myself, but it does seem like the kind of thing where town should be worrying that wgeurts is idiot-scum, and thus should NOT be warning him of a potential trap. On the other hand, scum knew he was town and wouldn't really be thinking about it.
  
  
• In post 275, setting up a future vote on YYR in the event that wgeurts flips town, but would do more analysis if wgeurts flips scum. He's approaching this as if he thinks wgeurts is probably town, but wgeurts is Phillammon's strongest scum-read (post 162), he doesn't want to do any more analysis now. But why wouldn't his main plan be based around that wgeurts would flip scum as he had implied before. To me the implication is that he knew the answer.

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Regarding the mis-aimed link: it was my second "real" (about anything in a game) post on this site and I mis-used the post tag. I'm still not actually sure how it is supposed to work, since I don't know why it's redirecting to where it is. But I know it's not allowed to edit posts, I since linked the correct post a couple other times using quotes or URLs, and Thor had quoted the relevant post in it's entirety in response to Droog before I got on today. I really didn't know what else needed to be said.

No, I do not think misunderstand how the [post tag works is a tell. Especially because I correctly linked the same post in other places on the same subject.

Not sure what I should have done/said?

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Regarding Blair:

The "if Dys flips scum, vote me, hold me to it" thing does come across as very confident, but without the context of other things it sounds like it could be a confident town-read by town. It seems perfectly likely that Blair could be frustrated with Thor and conceding this point because she has Dys as a strong town-read.

Now I

can

see the argument for it as a scum-perspective, I don't think that's crazy, and admittedly my read on Blair swung back and forth when I caught up on the thread, but I don't think that's enough to push me to a scum read on Blair. If there is more evidence, I could see it on another day, but today, with what we know now, I have no interest in lynching Blair.

Thor has swung back and forth for me, but he really seems to be doing a lot of accusing people of not reading things, and making every little thing into a 5-post exchange with "well I thought I explained that fine" instead of

actually clarifying anything

. And I don't find his posts to be as clear as he makes them out to be, just sort of dismissive of other people and their points without backing it up much.

I have no idea what Thor's actual case on Dyslexicon

is

, even after going back and rereading that post.

@Thor, instead of responding to this by saying "I think it's clear enough", could you just explain? Walk me through why I should be voting for Dyslexicon.

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Yes. As well as in person.

I'd rather not name the site though, as it was years ago and I made an ass of myself. I'm trying

not

to be stupid or assish here.

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I got back into this because some friends and I played a couple games in the chat of VASSAL (internet board game playing program - module for a different game) and I realized I wanted to play some more. Once I decided to get into the internet thing again, and at the source as-it-were, I started reading some games and some strategy articles here. I've read all of the Mastin-academy stuff, for example. And most of the strategy articles on the wiki. Can't say I've absorbed them all, but I'm trying.

I'm elaborating because I figure the reason you're asking is because I've been using some of your lingo.

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Thanks? Anyway, here's a post I've been working on for a while, we're theorhetically into Shaddowez paying attention time now. Got thinking about this while trying to figure out what YYR was doing on day 1. (Still not sure, but is it worth posting my thinking on that, or is that just useless at this point?)

Spoiler: The "Useful Defense" discussion

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess.

I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

But he didn't have a direct answer. Also, I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular. You never know what can come out of something, but I was never the organized type.

This looks like a useful defense for later in the game.

What do you mean by "useful defense"?

I mean that saying "useful scumhunting" doesn't look like anything in particular seems like a good setup to be able to not do much. If people later on down the road say "it doesn't look like Dys is doing much in the ways of useful scumhunting", you could say "Well, I am scumhunting in my own way, how do you know what "useful scumhunting" looks like?"

I could. And so could anyone else. It works for anyone. It's not meant to be "useful defense", it's just how I see the game. I very much view this as a people game, and people are different. Which is much excite.

You are correct. However, you are the one that specifically said that (paraphrasing) "useful scumhunting doesn't have a particular look". That's why I called you out on it, and said it looked like you could be setting up a defense for later.

@Shaddowez: You seem to have come back to this pretty strongly as a scummy thing about Dyslexicon lately, but it was Droog who first said "useful scumhunting", Dyslexicon had just come in 2 posts later to argue with him about whether or not YYR's thing was pointless, essentially saying that he shouldn't be ruling things out as pointless so quickly. So Droog

did

have an opinion that this was useless while Dyslexicon

did

have the opinion you don't like (nothing is necessarily useless), fair enough. But isn't it weird to jump on this as Dyslexicon setting up a useful defense, seeing as it was in reply to "I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question"?

I mean you seem to be giving this a lot of weight, but in context of that section of the thread, it seems more like a throw-away "Don't be so quick to shut down discussion" sort of comment. Why does it seem so significant to you?

Why

isn't

it a null-read we-think-about-things-differently comment?

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Oh, speaking of coaching: Experienced players (especially Thor), given that scum can talk during the day, what would that

look

like. Personal suspicions aside, what should we be looking for as evidence of that?

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And my point is that players are not exempt for lynching for the idea of future interactions.
I will agree interactions are beneficial, I disagree that the lack of them qualifies as a reason not to lynch someone. If you agree with that then we have no issue.

Sure, completely agree. I just think that if you have two likely options, the one that is a new replacement of a lurker is worth putting on the back burner for more interactions. If I'm anyone's top read that makes sense, to vote for me, but given the case on YYR, I'm not sure why that would be

top

. Given the choice between two, I think I should be less preferential

today

. That is what I was getting at. And actually, for the people who have YYR as their

top

scum read,

why is that?

Is that weird stuff really the most suspicious thing all game? I've found reasons to suspect a bunch of people (some of whom I'm fairly confident are town at this point.)

1. By the time someone is being asked for a reads list prior to lynch they'd have to be pretty dense scum not to be able to puzzle that one out. I personally only ask for this on the presumption the player might be town. If they are scum I ignore the post entirely and think it is foolish to do otherwise. I suppose that if he thought, like you claim to, that the final scum post should be analyzed, that...yeah...maybe? I dunno, do you honestly think any scum are confused about what to do at that point? I don't believe this, so the point doesn't sell me, but if you believe scum can be fooled like that I guess I see the point.

No I pretty much agree with your premise, I don't think that would be a good way to catch competent scum. But my point (or really Dyslexicon's point, I think) was that Phil had him as his top scum read, and he

had

just come in and killed a town member in a way that got him immediately lynched. If he was scum, as Phil thought, I don't think it is unreasonable to think he was foolish scum.

2. To my mind this is called 'having other reads and being open about them' which I take as pro-town. He's not approaching it as if he thinks wgeurts is town, he's approaching ti with an awareness that he might be and is thus paying attention to the wagon. It also makes sense in how he's suspecting wgeurts, who he is citing for being scummy in how Cheetory was lynched, and now he's noting potential suspicion if wgeurts was town. I can see your point, but see no real evidence for it. I think this is a gut read as it can be read either way.

Thinking about this, I guess it is more gut-read than I initially thought it was. It does feel to me as if he

knew

wgeurts were town, but I'm not sure I can prove that.

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So there was nothing other than this?

In short - I am saying that you're extroverting fake scumhunting commentary to try to cover for doing nothing, and am calling you scum because of it.

I already went into detail on why I thought it was better commentary than you thought it was. The way you have been so dismissive about it, and so strong on it, I thought there must be something more.

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@Droog:

What's the case on Dyslexicon as

you

see it?

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i like my vote on the yyr slot
dys is not high priority yet

could see myself on philamon
probably need to reerad

I've now (this post) posted twice as much as YYR, taken more actual stances on things, had more interactions with people. At what point can we vote for me? I demand that if you do decide to lynch me, you talk about me before I die.

I'm rereading Blair and it's making me want to kill both her AND Thor, but I'm not sure how much of that sentiment relates to their allignments.

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I'm not asking you to talk more about me, I was making a joke/complaint/jokey-complaint about how you keep calling me "The YYR-slot" rather than just "Fink".

I wasn't asking you to postpone my death either, I was saying I think I've talked enough at this point to count as a person who is in this game. Before I die, say my name.

Why is that worrying?

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This

is what happens when I forget the

italics

.

Just realized that was probably the problem. Should have italicized

me

.

That, or just gone with my original thought: "Say my name, bitch."

But I didn't want to call Droog a lady-dog.

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@Shaddowez: What do you mean by not liking that I "didn't even mention my slot"? I'm not sure what you're saying.

When you say you already didn't like things about Dyslexicon's posts and this was just another point on the scuminess scale, we're talking post 78. What were all the things you disliked about her before that point?

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You know what, that's too weak.

"I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular. " was Dyslexicon's 8th post.

Here's what she had said before that point.

Spoiler: Dyslexicon's first 7 posts

Hi. :3

VOTE: wgeurts

Yes.

Hi Dys. What's droog talking about?

Why wguts over Cheetory?

I think he wanted two wagons instead of one, and then realized a vote was not where he initially thought. And then he made som insinuation that YYR was initiating stupid discussion by asking the thingy that was the thingy about you. I don't know why he thought it was stupid. And I don't know if I intepreted it correctly (he will hopefully shed more light on it himself). I like punctuation. And I miss my nickname, but Dys is cool.^^

I have no answer to that just now.

Am I the only one imagining droogs chanting out loud what he is typing? :3

Right?

So Keely. It's pretty obvious that it's either Wingnuts or you dying today. You should join the wagaruts wagon. Blair found him.

Dys has mysterious reasons for doing things and it's weird.

I've played with someone I call Keely on another site, and I wonder if it's the same person, but I kind of doubt it from posting style. Keely. I like to write it.

And yes, some reasons are half mysterious to me as well. Why, brain, why?

@ Keely, All the names are hard to remember. But I like doing nicknames. Why are you not upset about dying? Dun dun DUUUN.

I've had a good life.~

I'm glad to hear it.

VOTE: Cheetory

Question was dumber than autocorrect

Why?

(Also, autocorrect makes things funny. Sometimes).

Basically nothing. So want to explain why that last answer makes any sense?

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You can read YYR's ISO in about 20 seconds. I didn't just jump in and start providing my own reads because I wasn't wanting to deal with how he interacted with people, I jumped in, started reading the thread and providing my own reads because there wasn't anything to go on. And frankly, I'm still trying to figure out what that question to Cheetory was about.

Honestly, I find my own reads much more worth discussing than YYR doing one weird thing and then posting "I'll catch up tomorrow, I swear" a few times.

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I'm sorry, I had misunderstood your second part of that line of questioning. Yes, at that point in time it was just something that pinged me, so I pointed it out. Had Dys never asked me about it, there's a good chance I would have forgotten about it/ignored it except for when doing ISO reads. I'll often call out lines from people that I don't like, even if I have them as strong town reads. It gives me something to look at again later, as well as bringing it to other people's attention to do with what they will.

Okay, I guess I can buy that (although count that as a "ping" for you on my readings).

[Fink]

So Dyslexicon recently pointed out that Blair agreeing with Thor that she (Blair) would look like scum for her defense of Dys, were Dys to flip scum was kind of weird on both Thor and Blair's parts because Blair hasn't actually done much to defend Dyslexicon (and extra suspicious on Blair since she's been usually arguing with all the weird crap Thor says.) So I went back and looked at Blair's defending, I've copied all the quotes into the spoiler below so we can all look at this in one place.

Spoiler: Blair's Defense of Dyslexicon

Address my raised issue with Dyx about her statements regarding needing meta on me - go.

...Wall-o'-quotes...
How reasonable your inference was or wasn't hinges entirely upon whether or not it was accurate to characterize Dyslexicon as "not reading this game."

I'll be honest: I never saw where you were getting that from (note that here I am saying I never saw evidence of this in Dyslexicon's posts, not that I never saw you explain that conclusion - before you go and quote the above wall at me again).

At the same time, I do have a hard time believing that she planned on poring over not one but

two

scum games of yours in any real detail, and she does admit to skimming in 301.

tl;dr

: You were probably right to say she was disingenuous in asking for two scum games to read over (the very fact that she publicly asked for them when they aren't hard to find demonstrates she was more interested in making sure we all knew she was doing it than actually doing so), but you could have made this point without claiming she wasn't reading this game, either (which I think was just another way of saying "You aren't asking a lot of meaningful questions or drawing significant conclusions," which, again, is a point that can be made without the above claim).

Summary: You raised a fair point, but included an unnecessary and unverifiable jab that inevitably led to a lot of pointless arguing.

I'm glad you asked, though, because it made me reread Dyslexicon and I agree with you on that count.

As far as showing Dyxs' lack of reading, how about this;

You are right that I didn't read your very last posts.

(NOTE: This is taken out of context, as has been discussed earlier, Dys was talking about responding before catching up with the most recent thread activity)

Or this?

That last version is really different than anything I ever got in my head (Thor), and I write drama for a living and it's pretty cool as such. And I will need to read again. BAIIII

Which I'll agree she's claimign to have read - but is now saying she needs to read it twice before being able to offer comments on it...?
Or this?

(I skimmed most

(referring to Thor's couple of old games)

of course, cause I'm not going to use that much time right now (I can't anyway)

Which, fascinatingly, shows I was correct in my belief of her reading.

So on and so forth.
If you find the arguing pointless than don't discuss it.
What I'm asking you is - do you think she said that as town or as scum? You seem to be agreeing she said it for the look of the matter. Now what is your read on her alignment once you notice that? Because you said a lot without concluding much.

P-edit: Sorry, I thought it was implicit: It's scummy. I don't think she's as scummy as Phillammon, though, which is why I asked you about him immediately after.

I'm liking Dyslexicon's recent bout of posting, and while I could see this as scum starting to get their sure footing again after an attack, I'd peg it as more likely Town finally buckling down.

(And yes, my case on Phillammon and your case on Dyslexicon are becoming more and more similar the more they are elaborated)

Looking over it again, I still like Dys' recent list of reads? I don't know, I feel like she was pretty specific - not formatting-wise (with lots of links and post numbers and such, like I would have liked) but you can pretty well tell what posts and interactions she's referring to - it doesn't seem fictional to me.

I take it you disagree?

This feels like something of a double standard - am I incorrect?

No, you are correct - I have different standards for different people.

Phillammon seems to be trying to present himself as very thorough, but under scrutiny it doesn't hold up.

I never got the impression from Dyslexicon that she was presenting herself as particularly thorough, so the bar for genuineness is lower here.

You are free and expected to balk at that.

I really wanna flip Dyx now. If she's scum you are an assured the day after.

Yes, since I've defended her and I started the counterwagon that is to be expected.

Yes, if Dys is lynched and flips scum it would be perfectly reasonable to find my defense of her suspicious - that is a tell I wouldn't argue with. (Hold me to it!)

I find myself agreeing with Dys (and Thor?!) about this being weird. She does an awful lot of calling Dys scummy for being her big defender. Weirder than I initially thought, because it isn't just the agreeing with Thor all of a sudden, it's the admitting to being something she really hasn't been (a strong defender of Dyslexicon). I don't think that's a particularly strong defense of Dys here. I'm not sure what to make of it, so talk this through with me guys. Please add to this. What are her motivations for agreeing with Thor.

If Blair is scum and Thor is scum

: Why would they ever do this? No one is pressuring them to get into a situation like this, I find it pretty unlikely. Does anyone have a good reason for the Blair-Thor scumteam to act this way? I think someone proposed this as a both-or-neither (acryon?).

If Blair is town

: She's annoyed with Thor (although doesn't sound nearly as much like it here as earlier) and going along because she's pretty confident in her Dys town-read. Except none of her earlier posts really make her seem confident in her Dys town-read, other than some feelings off this last thing. I believe a town read, but it doesn't seem all that strong. Would Blair agree to this on a mild town read? Does she think no one would hold her to it? My guess is on that last, I know I wouldn't vote for someone because Thor made this deal.

Regardless of how confident she is, why would she act like she'd been a big defender of Dys? That's the real scummy thing here actually, more than the "promise."

If Blair is scum and Thor is town

: We come to the question of why, in the event of a Blair/Dyslexicon scumteam (as Thor would believe in if Dys is scum) Why would Blair agree to what seems a huge overstatement of how much she has defended Dys. Is being the first to vote for Phil that

sure

. I know I wouldn't think it is. I can see Scum Dys/Blair up

until

this point, but if Blair really were scum, why not just call Thor ridiculous. It would hardly be the first time. Heck, I'd probably agree. I might have even voted Thor over it. But she would have reason to see herself as a defender of town-Dys because Dys hasn't been her mislynch target.

@Blair: Why did you agree with Thor that you were an obvious lynch candidate if Dys is scum. Not agreeing that you look scummy, that I get, but why are you so obvious that you'd be lynched? Do you think I'd be stupid not to vote for you if Dys flips scum?
@Thor: Do you think this makes Dys more likely to be town?

While I'm still totally okay with a Phil lynch, I'm going to VOTE: Blair now and see where this goes.

[Fink]

Note to Thor: I went into the big thing I just posted hours ago (when I made the comment about you two driving me crazy.) I wasn't being lazy, I was just taking forever because I went into the Blair re-read basically thinking I was going to come out of it voting for you, started a big bunch of quotes trying to make a ase against you and defend Blair, and as I went on, I just didn't believe that anymore.

It's really obnoxious how you keep jumping at every chance to call all of us lazy or claim that we haven't read things. That's the second time you've told me I was being lazy (and the first time you also said I was lying about it). It really doesn't help anyone, either from a moral point of view, or a productive posts point of view. STOP.

[Fink]

I didn't say I wasn't reading you, I said I

was

reading you and it was annoying me. It was a comment I made while doing it. And I only said it because I'd said that whole argument was anti-town because it made it painful to read previously, and I was reaffirming the same opinion double on my second time through that mess.

I don't think I've been lazy. I've been in this game ~36 hours now, I've done more that some who have been in it since the beginning.

It wasn't an excuse, and this is bugging me to the point where I really hope you're scum, because if you're town I don't think I want to play with you again. And at the moment I think you're probably town (to my disappointment), so... yeah.

I'm off for the night.

[Fink]

Wow, I thought I was checking this late and would come back to like a page or two of new stuff. Where is everyone?

Blair: As I said earlier in the same post, I wouldn't vote for you if Dys flipped mafia. Honestly explaining why you think you look scummy in a way that makes sense would make me take my vote off you. I mean I see that you would arouse some suspicion, but you seemed to really be agreeing with what looked like crazytalk from Thor to me. And you'd previous gone overboard in the other direction on calling him out for such things.

The motive I have for asking you to elaborate is that what you're doing doesn't make much sense to me, and I want to understand your thought process. I'm voting for you because I am serious about this, and votes speak louder than words.

The one motive that makes the most sense to me is that you essentially agreed with Thor because he didn't seem as crazy-pants to you as he did to me: because you feel like you

have

been going after Phil unfairly: since you know both he and Dys are town or something. Since Dys is one of my stronger town reads, and Phil is one of my stronger scum reads (reevaluating this depending on how you play out), your "double standard" didn't seem at all crazy to me, it seemed logical. I wouldn't have agreed with Thor, and based on your behavior earlier in the thread, I'm surprised you did. My best thought for why you would do that is that you have more information than I do (i.e. are scum). I'm open to other reasoning.

@ Everyone else (although Dys, Thor, Blair already spoke up): What do you think about Blair?

[Fink]

Another reason I ended up voting for Blair instead of Thor is that when I made my big list of Blair quotes on the previous page, it stood out to me that she kept undercutting Dys while seeming to defend her. Maybe it was just a weak defense of a weak read, but it seems more likely to me at the moment that it's a good way to support a mislynch without being one of the early people driving that mislynch.

Thoughts?

[Fink]

I think she'd have let Thor convince her at some point (hence the agreeing that her case on Phil and Thor's case on Dys were equivalent).

Do you think, looking at her defense of Dys, that this is a reasonable interpretation?

[Fink]

I really hope that's not all.

It would be nice if only a few people would avoid commenting on recent stuff, so it could be narrowed down. There are only two scum, but everyone except Thor (and kindof-sortof Shaddowez) seem to be holding off on commenting on recent stuff, as if hoping Thor and/or I will get bored and move on, leaving the lack of commentary uncommented upon. That seems like scum behavior. But I know we don't have twice as many scum as town. Let's get some town opinions on this! Speak up people!

[Fink]

Thor, could you humor us dumb newbs and explain the facepalm with wordz please?

[Fink]

@Phil: Are you ever going to give us

anything

from when you were catching up on the things that are not Dys' ISO? I've been expecting some updates or comments any moment now for

days

.

[Fink]

Aside from the seeming foreknowledge of wgeurts' flip, here is something else about Phil:

I find it hard to believe that there is nothing worth discussing. I've had a little tiff with Thor again, I've got on the Blair Wagon suggested by Dys, first voted on by Thor (without any clear reason), then I kept pushing Blair and pointed out the trend of backhandedly calling Dys scumming while half-defending Dys. I've been Phil's #1 scum read since apparently page 1 or whatever when YYR voted Cheetory. If I'm his top scum read, why doesn't he have

anything

to say about any of that? Am I more scummy, am I less scummy? Apparently everything is unchanged.

He doesn't understand the case against him, or has chosen to forget it. He's happy to keep his vote on me based off, as far as I can tell, a semi/transitioning-out-of RVS vote on Cheetory. He is willing to move to Thor's previous wagon without seeming to have anything to add despite apparently reading Dys' ISO recently. Surely there must be something he can comment on in there? He's coasting through this game trying to give as little interaction as possible, seeming to agree with whatever weaksauce cases people throw out without adding anything.

Phil is not doing any useful scumhunting. I don't know what specific thing that looks like (still) but I know Phil isn't doing it. His play doesn't make sense for town trying to catch up and find scum. It makes perfect sense for scum wanting to find some town-on-town cases to coast on, without seeming to add enough to implicate himself if they flip town. He's very carefully voting for wagons that look like they could be starting to take off while making as few waves as possible, as scum would do to encourage the mislynch without really being tied to it.

VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

He's been setting up his suspicion of Dys for several days, without much to actually show for it. I'm thinking he's afraid to look waffly. It fits with the pattern of holding onto those first reads and not changing much in the face of events/evidence/discussion. I think, if he's scum, the way he's playing scum he'd be worried that that would be too obvious. He's been setting up these other vague votes well before doing them.

Phil's a stronger scumread for me than Blair. If only one or the other wagon will take off, I wanted to put my weight on the Phil one. But no, I'm not blown away by Blair's response. Count me as wanting to vote for both, but alas having only one vote. Given that there are only the two of us on the Blair wagon, with Dys as a reluctant, eventual third vote, and 3 of us on the Phil wagon without any imput from most of the town, I'm trying to consolidate.

But if someone else gets on Blair with you, I'll come on over. I'm with you about wanting to get some real wagons going before the deadline. Enough that people have options that might reveal something later. Just Phil seems equally as likely to take off as Blair right now, and he's a stronger read for me. Count me as on the Blair wagon in spirit (and in person if it has any momentum after your call to arms.)

If anyone is thinking "well, I'd vote for Blair, but it's just Thor", it isn't just Thor. And I'll move my vote back there if it looks like it has legs. But also, vote Phil.

[Fink]

You two would make for a good sitcom married couple.

I actually understand Thor's position, I just strongly support the Phil wagon. If I were Thor I'd be a bit frustrated with me too. But I'd rather Phil take off than Blair.

You know what would be really nice? Acryon, Droog, Shaddowez, and a hypothetical Bins replacement getting some actual opinions about this. Also, I'd like a pony.

[Fink]

@Acyron

Hey Acyron! You want a reason to vote someone besides Thor? If Thor were scum, do you think he'd let his partner be this useless (whoever they are)?

I'm not saying I'd never vote Thor on some future day, given some more evidence of something clever happenning. But if Thor is scum, it seems like his partner is dead weight. And he has daychat to yell at them

constantly

.

[Fink]

Acyron seems absolutely locked onto you, not really entertaining other options. No it isn't much of a defense of you, honestly you're not that strong of a town read for me, but I think it's a good reason not to vote for you at the moment. That, and your wagon not going anywhere.

My point on Phil isn't that he's jumping at every oppurtunity; it's that he's taking oppurtunities for very little reason, trying to provide minimal ties from himself to his votes. At the same time, I think he's being very cautious (overly so) and not wanting to change his mind or his vote too much. I don't see an inconsistency there.

[Fink]

It's a joke and a real defense in one!

[Fink]

My point on Phil isn't that he's jumping at every oppurtunity; it's that he's taking oppurtunities for very little reason, trying to provide minimal ties from himself to his votes. At the same time, I think he's being very cautious (overly so) and not wanting to change his mind or his vote too much. I don't see an inconsistency there.

Maybe, but he was literally in a situation where he was in a three way tie that included himself, and was offered and provided the perfect excuse to put a 'not Phil' wagon into a strong lead without having to accept any blame.

Why would he do that if scum considering your theory of why he is scum?

Again, I think he'd do that because he's worried about looking inconsistent. And his comment telling you that he could be convinced to vote Dys (as if you're the one doing the convincing) seems out of touch with your more recent posting, so town or scum I read that as him thinking you're still up for voting Dys.

Which means, in his mind, it's 2 on Blair (you and me), 3 on him (Blair, Dys, and me), 2 on Dys (you and Shaddowez) and 2 on me (him and Droog, who recently said he needed to catch up and reconsider his reads, which could be implying a change of vote.) Give that that puts him as the leading wagon, and he's feeling presure to move his vote, it would be a tie between Blair and Dys. He's been setting up voting for Dys for quite a while, he's worried about looking inconsistent, and if he thinks you are potentially on board with a Dys lynch (which he seems to have believed when he posted that), it makes perfect sense to vote Dys.

[Fink]

Also, isn't it suspicious (under this same theory) that he seems to be holding off on voting until he sees what Droog is going to do? Like he wants to vote Dys, but he's not committing to it until he seems Droog either abandon his vote for me or double down on it with more of a case. Phil isn't

making

such case, but he's not unvoting for me yet, as if he doesn't want to have to look convinced to move his vote

back

to me, should I become a thing, he's waiting to take his vote off to see what Droog does.

[Fink]

@mod,

with the exception of myself, thor and droog... no one has posted in the last 24 hours... Can we get a mass prod? Thanks.

I've been kind of waiting for you to finish catching up and hear your thoughts and/or some input from the others. I've been worried Thor and I were more-or-less dominating the thread and I want to pull some actual reactions from the others rather than letting this just move on uncommented upon and forgotten because it's 4 pages in the past or something.

ANd I think the prod deadline is 48 hours, which is only being violated by V/LA acryon right now.

[Fink]

@acryon

1. We only have 5 days left, do you really think it likely a Thor wagon is going to start and get to 5 votes in that number of days?

2. How close to the deadline do we have to be for you to compromise on your top scumread? At what point do you think refusing to move hurts town's ability to make a reasoned decision?

3. What do you think of the wagon on you?

4. Why do

you

think Phil looks scummy-leaning?

[Fink]

Also, regarding hurting town's ability to make a reasoned decision, I feel like Thor deciding for people what they are doing is a good example of that.

I don't know, Thor's comment that the two most likely lynch candidates end up voting for each other seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Why do you think that comment is scummy, rather than just aggressive/presumptious?

If you want to affect the wagon you need to be talking to the people voting it, not the obv. votes that aren't placed yet.

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself. But his very reasonableness as a lynch candidate without any real

thing

defining that, and the speed with which his wagon took off are what worry me, and I think it's worth questioning him before he dies. I don't see why that's surprising at all. And getting his vote actually onto Phil would give others (you/Droog/adorable kitty roman numeral guy) some more leverage to also queston Phil. I think it's self-evident that talking to Acyron is the best use of my time right now.

1. I think it is non-impossible, but quite unlikely that a Thor wagon could gain momentum, but I do think it is worth keeping my vote to send the message that I am serious about thinking he is scum, and I don't want to let him off the hook.

That message is obvious. Why is that more important to you than applying pressure to pressurable people? What do you think voting for Thor is actually accomplishing if you die when Phil comes back?

2. I don't see how abstaining from voting for someone else hurts the town's ability to make a reasoned decision. If my vote were to go anywhere, it would go to Dys or Phil, but as I've implied, I'm less convinced that they are scum than I am of Thor as scum. I think keeping my vote on Thor benefits town more than switching to one of those others, for the reasons I answered in 1.

Your vote isn't applying any pressure to anyone. Thor is not shaking in his boots with fear that he's getting lynched today. If you always abstain until the last possible minute, it makes town react based on urgency rather than talking it through. Thoughts?

And while you're at it, why are you still talking about voting for Dys? What in the last few pages makes you think a vote there is going to do any good?

3. If people honestly don't see what I see, then the wagon makes sense I guess. They are wrong, and I certainly think there are better options for lynches to reveal information(Dys and Phil both fit that I think).

Who's the scummiest person on your wagon besides Thor?

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?

[Fink]

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?

@ Acryon

To clarify, tell me what you think we would learn in either of those hypothetical flip situations. Don't just say Thor and Thor. Look away from the tunnel for a moment please.

[Fink]

@acryon

Okay, but what

information

do we gain from lynching Phil then? Those sound like the same information we might have now, just with some more certainty of wrongness on someone's part.

If we lynch Phil and he flips town, in what way does that make DCLXVI seem more likely scum?

[Fink]

my reasoning is, the more posts you make, the more likely you are to make a scumslip

@ DCLXVI, Droog, Acryon, Shaddowz, Thor

So what do you guys think of this earlier comment given Phil's recent play? It seems suspicious to me that he's playing with so little commentary, especially now that he's suspected. He seems to be minimizing his responses, or is this just in my imagination? He still hasn't moved his vote OR explained his vote on me. I think it all fits with my over-cautious scum explaination, given that he agrees that that is how scum should play?

@ Acryon: Don't you see how voting Phil to put him at L-1 could put more pressure on him here? It would give the others the ability to demand some real answers out of him. If you're going to keep voting Thor, how about you at least make a case on him, other than the not-taking-his-vote-off-wyguerts thing, which no one but you thinks is suspicious.

[Fink]

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon. DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think. Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

IMO Scummiest-> Towniest looking only at how votes were placed on the Acryon-wagon is Shaddowez > Droog > Thor > DCLXVI

I'm really surprised Acryon isn't looking at this sort of thing

at all

and it certainly brings me closer to wanting to hammer him. Especially given that Acryon had Shaddowez as only a lean town before, while DCLXVI was a straight up town read. Acryon seems completely disinterested in explaining this, he seems to have 0 interest in scumhunting, just in pushing his one target.

Also, Acryon, don't say it's "mathematically wrong" when you obviously aren't doing any math.

Spoiler: math example using numbers pulled out of my ass, because I'm annoyed at the phrase "mathematically wrong"

Let's say Thor has a 5% chance of getting lynched today (I think that's being generous.)
Let's say you are overconfident and think Thor has a 75% chance of voting scum.
Not counting yourself, assuming Thor is scum, there are 7 people left. Looking at your reads list, let's say you have no interest in voting for me or Droog, so there is 1 scum in 5 people if you assume Thor is scum. That means, even if your scum read on Phil were tied with Blair/DCLXVI/Shaddowez/Dys (i.e. I'm

seriously

underestimating this because you say he's your #2 scum read), that gives Phil a 20% chance of being scum to you.
So by voting for Thor, you have a ~4% chance of lynching scum.
Let's say you could vote for Phil and make it 50-50 that he gets lynched (it's probably a bit less than that, but you get my point, since if you're town, you know you are town and shouldn't desire that outocem.)
Then you'd have a 10% chance of lynching scum by voting Phil, accounting for him being town 80% and maybe not being lynched.
In this case, by not voting, you're making it LESS likely that your scum reads will be lynched, since presumably you have yourself as a town read.

IT IS MATHEMATICALLY REASONABLE TO VOTE FOR YOUR LESSER SCUM READ.

Okay, so that math example was probably pointless, but GRRRRRRRR

[Fink]

Correction: In the math example "Thor voting scum" should be "Thor being scum."

[Fink]

it is as simple as I think Thor has a 90% chance of being scum, which is greater than Dys/Phil who have, let's say 40% chance.

There are 2 scum out of 8 other people in the game at the moment. Everyone has a 25% chance of being scum if you vote at random. 75% is overconfident. 90% is SERIOUSLY overconfident. Your case on Thor is weak. How the hell do you have a 90% certainty that he's scum based on Day 2? I don't see how anyone could be 90% certain of

anyone

right now. And my math was really basing things

in your favor

, I went with the assumption that Phil was 20% scum. I (and presumably you) think it's actually significantly higher than that.

You're pretending to have done analysis you obviously haven't done.

Shadowz may have had the scummiest jump on my wagon, but I don't think, overall, that his slot is more scummy than DCLXVI. There is more to it than just why each of them is on my wagon.

And it would be lovely if you'd share these things with us, especially as your respective reads on DCLXVI and Shaddowez changed seemingly based on nothing. And I really think, if you believe you're town (which you obviosuly do or say you do regardless), you should be puttingsome serious weight as to why people jump onto wagons aiming to lynch townies. It's weird that you don't. It's

suspicious

that you don't care about this.

[Fink]

@ Acryon

But you haven't explained thet non-nothing reason for your reads changing at all. You are dangling at the end of a rope here, you should probably do so.

And also, you fail math. Whether or not that makes you townie or scummy, how about you lay off saying things mathematically don't make sense.

[Fink]

So Droog, why are you uncomfortable with me at LYLO? Do I seem that much of a loose canon to you?

[Fink]

Given droog's logic about who is useful in the end makes sense, I'm okay with this. I want to give it some more time to talk/allow people to make a good point against this, but I'm okay with it. Even if Acryon isn't scum, he's not town that I would trust to make any important decision. He's just going to vote for Thor for the rest of the game. And I think his responses today have not exactly been town-leaning. I actually think a Phil/Acryon scumteam isn't that unreasonable.

Given how I was just explaining the utility of voting lesser-but-possible scum reads, and given that we could use some more information to hunt on:

Intent to hammer Acryon

I'll wait a couple hours at least, and longer if people not named Acryon want me to.

[Fink]

No one has really summed it up in one place. Even though I think he's a lesser scum read than Phil by a reasonable amount, I think he's got a higher than average (i.e. better than 25%) chance of being scum and so I think it's a reasonable lynch. He's also going to be completely useless even if he is town.

I guess I'll write up a summary of the main points against him for you, hold on a minute. (Assuming you don't mind a case from the least commited voter on the wagon.)

[Fink]

@ Droog: huh?

I asked Acryon a fuckton of questions NOT about theory. He answered them in ways that came across as scummy, and showed he had 0 interest in scumhunting. I'm still not sold on him being scum, but as I said, I think he's better than 25% right now, and I'm of the opinion that that should be the cutoff. Also, I spoilered the math crap for a reason. Why are you keen to throw out the non-math questions as talking theory?

[Fink]

@ Blair

The case on Acryon as I see it

Acryon has 0 interest in scumhunting.
He doesn't see any point in looking at his wagon and the way people got on it for scum influence. He doesn't want to ever vote for anyone besides Thor, even to help pressure people like active-lurking Phil to talk to us. He doesn't have any non-Thor related opinions. At no point has he attempted to make any more of an argument on why we should be voting for Thor, he's just happy to park his vote there. He knows naked reads don't help much, as he said so in url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p6248583]post 136[/url].
His main reason for us not to vote for him is that we'd get more information out of a Phil or Dys lynch, but then he doesn't have any idea of what we'd get from that other than process of elimination.

Acryon has reads with no reasoning behind them.
We all know about the dumb Thor case he's been pushing over and over.
His reads on Shaddowez and XLVXI-whatever-it-is swapped when I asked him about who he suspected on his wagon. He hasn't given any reasoning for this. He never gave any reasoning for them to begin with, but he also is choosing not to explain now. It looks like there never

was

a reason for them.

It's not much, but I think having what look like made-up nonsense reads, when he has previously said that's useless, and him having 0 interest in looking for scum seem suspicious enough to put him above random-voting. And on top of that, even if he's town, he's shown he has no interest in being useful.

Like I said, I'm the weakest vote on him, but I think those are worthwhile, especially seeing as we can't get him or anyone else to vote Phil at the moment apparently.

[Fink]

post 136
Sorry, shouldn't have rushed that.

[Fink]

Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

That might be more clear.

[Fink]

So Phil, why aren't you voting for them? Or if you are, why haven't you explained your vote on me any of the times I've asked you?

[Fink]

@ Blair: This is the exachange that most convinced me Acryon doesn't give a shit about scumhunting. It's that he doesn't see the point at looking at his own wagon if he knows he's town.

To my mind, either 1. He is scum and so is making up scumhunting from whole cloth,
or 2. He just doesn't care to contribute anything but Thor tunnelling.

Droog made a good point that we can afford to cut the chaff right now, so since Phil doesn't seem to be going through, Acryon seems like a reasonable lynch to me. Especially as I think not caring about scumhunting is scummy.

In post 729, Fink wrote:

Who's the scummiest person on your wagon besides Thor?

If Phi flips scum, who is your top suspect?

If Phil flips town, who is your top suspect?


The scummiest person on my wagon besides Thor is probably DCLXVI. If Phil were to be lynched and flip scum, then our last scum is Thor. If he flips town, I think it's Thor and probably Dys or DCLXVI.

@acryon

Okay, but what

information

do we gain from lynching Phil then? Those sound like the same information we might have now, just with some more certainty of wrongness on someone's part.

If we lynch Phil and he flips town, in what way does that make DCLXVI seem more likely scum?

And it's not that I think Phil flipping town and DCLXVI being more scummy are directly correlated. It's more PoE at that point to me. DCLXVI is the most scummy after Thor, Dys, and Phil to me, so given Phil-town, by PoE, I think the remaining scum are Thor and either Dys or DCLXVI.

So in my opinion Shaddowez had by far the scummiest jump onto the Acryon wagon. DCLXVI came into the game, read it, and placed a vote on a non-existant wagon that turned out to be pretty damn viable, that doesn't seem scummy to me at all. Thor has been jumping at the bit to get a lynchable wagon going (something I don't actually read as scummy coming from him right now) and has never had much read on Acryon. I have 0 difficulty believing Thor would see Acryon as a viable lynch candidate and a perfectly reasonable compromise. Droog had been catching up on the last several days and saying for a while he needed to reevaluate things, when he came back, he moved his vote based on the other two responses and preferring Acryon to Phil I think. Shaddowez just kind of came and tagged on to a rapidly rising wagon to put it into lynch range.

IMO Scummiest-> Towniest looking only at how votes were placed on the Acryon-wagon is Shaddowez > Droog > Thor > DCLXVI

I'm really surprised Acryon isn't looking at this sort of thing

at all

and it certainly brings me closer to wanting to hammer him. Especially given that Acryon had Shaddowez as only a lean town before, while DCLXVI was a straight up town read. Acryon seems completely disinterested in explaining this, he seems to have 0 interest in scumhunting, just in pushing his one target.

He's never responded to that last post of mine, only to the theory part of it that I was stupid enough to engage with him on. He's ignored the main ooint.

[Fink]

They did not swap. Did I include every detail of my reasoning for each read? No, but that's because I was answering a simple question, and my reads that supported the answer weren't particularly developed, so it didn't make sense to share them.

In the chance that I am getting lynched, my current reads are:
Blair - Lean-town
Phil - Lean-scum
Shadowz - Lean-town
Thor - Scum
droog - Town
Fink - Town
Dys - Lean-scum
DCLXVI - Town

To be fair, I said you

(DCLXVI)

were the scummiest person besides Thor on my wagon. You are still the 4th scummiest person I think, and not even very scummy. But I was asked who is most scummy on my wagon other than Thor, and neither Dys or Phil were on my wagon, so of droog, you, and Shadowz, I do think you are the scummiest, but that doesn't mean I feel strongly at all about you being scum.

I don't know when "Town" became scummier than "Lean-town", especially given how the two got on your wagon. You didn't include "every detail" of your reads because you didn't include

any

details of your reads. And it absolutely makes sense to share them, seeing as that's essentially the thing driving me to want to hammer you.

[Fink]

(Incidentally, may as well throw that on the pile. While I can see town motivations for trying to rile people up, I can see a hell of a lot more scum motivations for it)

And yet you have a town read on THOR of all people?

[Fink]

When I was giving out my final reads list, it was mostly off the top of my head, with, as you noted, no real explanations, as I was expecting to be hammered any second. My Town call on DCLXVI specifically, was based on my memory of what I had just read of DCLXVI's posts. Dumb, but I didn't really take into account Bins' posting as I should have. When I was asked specifically about my wagon, I was able to re-evaluate and go over again, now that I knew I had time. I probably should have mentioned how my reads changed, and probably should have included reasoning in the later post, but I wasn't exactly cross-referencing my response with my last-ditch reads list.

That being said, if someone else made this "slip", I would think it was scummy, so it is what it is.

That's actually a reasonable explaination. Care to explain your reasoning now though?

I promise, I, at least, will not hammer you any second. I'll hammer you when it seems like we're not making any more progress from you being at L-1 and no one has shown any indication of switching to Phil yet.

[Fink]

Yes, his general reluctance to explain absolutely anything about his reads is the reason for my second point, that I think it looks like his reads are made up rather than based on anything real.

[Fink]

I can't control when other people vote/post. If you haven't noticed, I tend to post at different times than everybody else. I agreed with Thor's point about not having my vote sitting on a wagon that's not going to happen, so I decided to move it to my next highest scum read. Would it have been less scummy had only one other person voted acryon before I moved my vote? If so, why? If not, would it have been less scummy if I waited until he was at L-1 and used my vote to hammer? Also, if so, why?

It wasn't the order so much as the lack of any comment on

why

. The lack of comment along with the timing make it more suspcious than the others, but please note that I'm not building a case on you here, I'm pointing out that OF THE PEOPLE ON THE WAGON, you got on it the scummiest. Yes, if you had moved your vote earlier or later, it would have looked less like you were following a trend, but the thing that would have helped the most is more explaination for your reasoning.

Also, I was kind of hoping to wait for tomorrow to see what he says, but since I guess the Shaddowez thing could be a delaying tactic, I'm fine with the hammer tonight if everyone else is.

Still, I don't really see us talking ourselves out of this by tomorrow. I don't think we need to rush, but if no one else is getting anything useful, I have no problem hammering Acryon. Or letting Dys do it.

[Fink]

Hammer away. There is a lot I've been holding off on saying until after this lynch.

Promise to explain

why

you thought it was necessary to hold off until after the lynch when you do explain, okay? Because I can't see any good reason for it now, but who knows, maybe it will be reasonable in hindsight.

[Fink]

Well, it would be nice to go to sleep and have the flip to think about, and the more I think about, what he has to say about Shaddowez is probably bullshit anyway, regardless of his flip. And I don't like the staling tactic feel of it.

I'm going to hold you to the reasonableness of those reasonably well reasoned reasons.

VOTE: Acryon

Let's vote Phil tomorrow. I'm glad to feel like this game is stalling out a bit less.

[Fink]

Because Phil & Acryon seems like a reasonable scumteam to me, but at the same time town Acryon and scum-Phil makes sense too, and Phil is my stronger scum read. Which is why I'd rather have lynched Phil, but only 3 of us seem interested in that.

Given the facts, I think I'll be voting for Phil initially tomorrow, although Acryon's flip and others' reactions to it will certainly shape things from there on, I don't think either flip for Acryon makes me not suspect Phil, or suspect anyone more than Phil. I

have

thought about both contingencies. But maybe you guys will be more on board with me tomorrow.

Also, I'm curious about what DCLXVI has to say, and upon reflection, town or scum, I have a hard time believing that whatever Acryon has to say about Shaddowez isn't last minute bullshit.

[Fink]

Not just a reasonable team actually. If Acryon is town, I think Phil is my strongest read. If Acryon is scum, I think OMG FOUND THE SCUM TEAM!!1! It would go a long way to explaining their reluctance to vote for each other.

[Fink]

Well I honestly can't come up with a better reason than "scumteam" for that hardline stance against moving his vote off you. I really don't understand why he'd feel obligated to be locked into it as you suggest. Like I know he's been tunnelling you, but I can't figure why he won't listen to reason about voting ANYHWERE else. And when I tried to ask him, it went nowhere incredibly, terribly fast.

[Fink]

That makes sense, Thor. Or a weird kind of sense anyway.

I'm out for the night, was hoping to see the flip before bed.

NOTE TO ALL: This is the last night for a while where I'm going to be able to be on late like this. I'll still be posting every day, but more towards the afternoon and maybe early evening U.S. Eastern. I'm not sure how permanent this new schedule will be, but it's at least true until the weekend, and possibly beyond that. (I'm not going to have internet at home anymore for a while, so I'm only going to be able to post while NOT at home, i.e. during the day. I hope to get back to having internet at home in the future, but no idea how long that will take.)

[Fink]

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

Actually, I should clarify that.

Phil is choosing to try to get the person most interested in lynching him lynched, rather than trying to figure out the person most likely to be scum. Since scum don't have night kills, this is the only way to get someone off their back.

Right. I need to go off briefly, but when I return, I'm gonna take a close look at people who changed their mind about Acryon when the wagon started gaining steam. I suspect we will find something VERY interesting in those last few votes.

You can already see in this quote, he's made up his mind. He doesn't say "people on the wagon" he says "people who changed their mind." I'm the one who most obviously talked about changing their mind.
[quote="In post 836
Now, I can appreciate this may well be a "he's at L-1, may as well question him properly" sort of thing- but if that's the case, why not put similar pressure on the person who you've repeatedly stated to be your top scumread, who was also "effectively" at L-1?[/quote]
I thought Acryon made it

perfectly

clear that he wasn't going to vote for Phil. So Phil was never "effectively" at L-1. Phil was at L-2 plain and simple, and I held off more than long enough and argued with Acryon MUCH more than enough about this. This does speak to Phil's sincerity about not being willing to hammer Acryon (as he claimed he wouldn't).

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

Again, Droog, Thor, XCLVI-whatever, had already made it clear they wouldn't vote for Phil yesterday. The only other person on the Acryon wagon was Shaddowez, who wouldn't have been enough to lynch. It takes 5 to lynch. There were 3 of us on the wagon and 5 openly not willing to vote for Phil, and Shaddowez. That lynch was not happening.

The point: Phil is stretching here. He's not looking at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. From his first post it's clear he

never intends

to look at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. He's stretching hard for reasons to find me scummy. Town would be honestly concerned with finding scum. Scum would be concerned with getting the biggest advocate of their lynching off their back. Phil is behaving like scum.

[Fink]

Screwed up my quote tags there, this was my point about "Phil was effectively at L-1." Why would Phil think Acryon was insincere after all the arguing I did with him, especially when Phil MADE THE SAME PROMISE and claimed to be sincere about it. Unless it was a good chance to let one of me/Blair/Dys hammer Acryon and jump on whichever of his critics did. Remember, aside from Phil himself, all the votes not on the Acryon wagon were people voting for Phil by the time he made that promise.

I thought Acryon made it perfectly clear that he wasn't going to vote for Phil. So Phil was never "effectively" at L-1. Phil was at L-2 plain and simple, and I held off more than long enough and argued with Acryon MUCH more than enough about this. This does speak to Phil's sincerity about not being willing to hammer Acryon (as he claimed he wouldn't).

And this is also a guy who, when I started going after him yesterday, developed a scum read on me for riling up other players, while at the same time having Thor as his top town read. Avoiding riling up other players is NOT how I would describe Thor's playstyle. It was another made-up reason.

[Fink]

What makes you think I'm not looking at anyone else on the Acryon wagon? I said I was starting with you, I'm not saying I won't be looking at anyone else. Additionally, you have a point, I'd misinterpreted DCLXVIs #806, but the fact remains that there were sufficient people receptive to a Phil lynch for a Phil lynch to be plausible.

The nearly 3 hour pause in posting, when apparently you are still around, without offering any other thoughts. And the fact that your first post sets up that you're interested in looking at the players who changed their minds and got on the wagon late. That's basically saying "I want to look at Fink."

And as I've just shown in the post you responded too, there were NEVER sufficient people receptive to a Phil lynch.

Please show me where I'm putting words in your mouth.

[Fink]

The bold was to highlight what was from the previous post. If I were bolding all my points, I'd have a lot more bold. I mainly picked bold because it was bold before due to the tag screwup.

You were at L-2

with my vote on you

. That argument is accurate with or without the bold, but you seem to be ignoring it.

[Fink]

Thor: It's not a theory argument. It's a Phil doesn't have his facts straight arguement. Phil says he could have been lynched, I've shown that there were not enough votes for it, that a majority of the town had clearly said they wouldn't lynch him, Phil has pretended that this was not the case.

[Fink]

Thor: It's not a theory argument. It's a Phil doesn't have his facts straight arguement. Phil says he could have been lynched, I've shown that there were not enough votes for it, that a majority of the town had clearly said they wouldn't lynch him, Phil has pretended that this was not the case.

Moreover, trying to confuse everyone about this, or not taking the time to read what I wrote or check it, are things that are more likely to be scum motivated, as per my comment that Phil seems more interested in attacking his attacker than in putting his brain into honestly hunting for scum.

[Fink]

@ Droog

i'm curious why you're unwilling to even read my posts then. The one thing you didn't get is probably the thing I repeated the most and that at this point Phil has even agreed with: that there were not actually enough votes to lynch Phil. I think Thor's face response sums up my feelings on your question nicely. Read the damn thread.

And then write your case. But could you also address your thoughts on Phil at some point today please?

[Fink]

@ Droog: I'm just saying you shouldn't ask questions that have been answered multiple times, in the few posts immediately after the post you're asking about. You can have whatever opinion of me you want, but as much as I've got on Thor's case about saying this: it's really really annoying when people comment without reading the game.

I'm not sure how you can have nothing to say about Phil beyond "strictly null." What do you think of my, Blair, and Dyslexicon's cases on him. I've made a bunch of different points. What do you think of Phil's response to the pressure yesterday? I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but I think you should be able to have an opinion. Please get around to rereading the Phil related stuff and make some kind of comment on it. I feel like I'm yelling into the void here.

@ Phil: You haven't actually addressed my position on the wagon. Both Dys and I stated intent to hammer, it got talk about a lot. It got talked about more than I thought it probably should have, and then I hammered. Regardless of what you think about me, I think you should address this. You said "it opened the wagon up for a quickhammer before acryon got back, but honestly if scum were dumb enough to do that then they'd given themselves away" but I'm also your top scum read today. Can you elaborate?

And by the way, DCLVXI was the first on the wagon, Droog is listed first only because DCLVXI unvoted to avoid a quickhammer until we talked about it some more, and then revoted when he wanted it hammered. Probably doesn't matter much, but it's worth getting the facts right.

[Fink]

Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.

[Fink]

Yes...soon, soon you too shall be making comments and having newbs act like you're being a jerk and then being asked to defend your attitude.
Give in to the hatred, let it flow through you

What's happening to me? What have I become?!?!?!?!

[Fink]

I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree

I thought we'd been over this ad nauseum.

Look here people: In the past page, we've been over and over this, around in circles. Droog, Thor, Acryon, DCLXVI, and Phil were very clearly never going to vote for Phil. That is a majority of town.

Phil keeps brining up this point, well past the point where it's refuted. I can't see a town motive for this, it doesn't seem like something a person interested in finding the truth would do.

I can see two scum motivations for it:
1) By bringing up the point over and over, especially when it's clear people like Droog aren't paying close attention, it plants the seed that people may start to believe it, especially since I'm the only one pointing out that it is wrong. If people start to believe it, they start to believe a bad case is a good case, and it helps steer town toward what I believe scum-Phil would see as the most important mislyinch: me.

2) By driving me to keep talking about it, he makes it more likely people will start to tune me out and lose the thread in this stupid debate.

These both make sense for scum-Phil to keep coming back to this. I can't see why town-Phil wouldn't be happy finding other things to accuse me with, or spending more time looking into things I said. At this point I've provided plenty of interactions and opinions worth going over, but he doesn't seem to be going over them.

[Fink]

Also, please note that Phil seems to think the scummiest thing is changing your opinion. This fits

extremely

well with the narrative of scum-Phil that Thor was disagreeing with me about yesterday. Phil has gone out of his way to avoid changing his vote or his opinion. He's going above and beyond not to do the things that he is most thinking scum would do.

Town should not be concerned with not looking scummy to the point where it impairs their scumhunting. Scum has every reason to act this way.

[Fink]

It's past hammer time

I had previously made clear I wasn't going to hammer Acryon unless it was clear we couldn't get a Phil lynch through. I see no way to interpret Droog's post here besides "hammer him already, I'm not voting Phil." Click on the link above and read that quote in context. I think it's pretty clear.

If you need more than that, here's a comment of his from much later than yours.

To Acryon

seeing your thought process explained
1) i still think its naively wronng
2) i sympathize with it more which means im leaning more town on you

not enough of a shift to make me think you arent the best lynch option righ

You're accusing me of hammering Acryon when I could have got Droog's support for a Phil lynch. I'd like an explaination as to why any reasonable person should think that is a possibility.

[Fink]

Changing your opinion I have no issue with (see shaddowez).

Changing your opinion with no explanation

, I do take issue with. Please stop misrepresenting my arguments.

That's quite a leap. Why don't you actually read my ISO? I think I talked about my thoughts on Acryon more than almost everyone else.

Again, this case is scummy as hell.

[Fink]

@DCLXVI: Could you also please explain your reasonable reasons for not explaining anything yesterday? And answer all the questions you refused to answer for Reasons.

Anyway, I'm out, possibly for the day, might get to come back later this afternoon, but not sure yet. Please explain everything by tomorrow.

[Fink]

Okay, I have to go for the day in a minute, nothing much to say since still waiting on comments.

@Mod Can we get a prod on Blair please?

@ DCLXVI: We ever going to see those reads? And why is "depends on the flip" reason not to clarify your thoughts yesterday?

@ Droog: Can you reread and comment on Dys and my assorted reasons for finding Phil scummy please. If he isn't scummy, could you explain why?

@ Shaddowez: What do you think is the strongest reason you scumread Phil? Do you disagree with any of the arguments I've made?

[Fink]

I agree with Phil (weird, right?).

Blair got poked twice, she had a habit of not commenting for stretches at a time, it isn't that surprising that she thinks she doesn't have time. I don't think there's anything worth reading into that from either side. I am interested in seeing what the new player says, a bit of fresh perspective could be nice, and might help to illuminate the alignment of the slot later, Blair's recent lack of posting wasn't giving us much to look at.

I don't think we can or should expect Blair's replacement to explain her thought processes. Whether Blair was town or scum, her motivations are her own, and I don't think a new player would have any more insight into that than the rest of us.

And I know I'm in the minority, but I'm going to be opposed to vote for Blair's replament for some time, at least until there is time for more interactions. Barring something really really scummy, I'm not going to be interested in lynching that slot today.

Really excited for some Droog, Roman Numeral Guy, and Blair replacement contributions. I feel like Dys, Phil, Thor, Shaddowez, and I have all sort of said what we have to say at the moment, and since we can't all agree on a wagon, we need the other half of town to chime in here.

[Fink]

See, for me the new player is working from a position of "has done some scummy things, but has seemed townie at times too, and it's hard to tell how much on either side is due to Blair not paying as much attention as she should have been." I can see the point of view of scum-Blair or town-Blair, and I don't think I'll have enough from that slot to be happy condoning or condeming it until more interactions and quite a bit of new talk from the new player. Preferably with a couple different votes.

If the replacement comes in and is very scummy, I'd vote for it, but I think their off my would-lynch list by default. But I knew you'd take your position, I'm not surprised or confused by it. I just don't agree.

[Fink]

Regarding Shaddowez' recent posts

They're quite dense, aren't they?

Okay, so the thing that stood out the most to me is that his reasons for seeing a potential link between Dyslexicon and Acryon as a scumteam seem like huge stretching. But he provided a ton of links that we can check and see that there isn't much of a connection between you guys. At first and second glance, it looks to me like taking a gut read and going back and trying to explain it with logic after the fact. It

could

be scum trying to explain a made up thing, but he already said:

Even though I was finding it difficult to see you (

Dyslexicon

) as a scum team with acryon, there was no possible way I saw you as a scum team with Phil. I also didn't really see an acryon/Phil team

So I'd really think he wouldn't have to explain the scum team thing as hard as he did, with all those links. I think the reasoning behind those links is bad, there's no real reason to see an Acryon/Dys scumteam. I also think it's willfully blind to only be willing to look at scumteams including 2 of your three scum reads, but if we learn anything from Acryon it's that town can do things like that too. Sigh.

I can see the interpretation of these recent posts as a scum-motivated Wall of Impenetrable Bullshit, and I already got into a long exchange with Shaddowez the other day about what I see as an irrationaly scum read on Dyslexicon, which reads a lot like him defending a gut read with bad logic. I'm not willing to vote for him off those posts right now, but they are indeed very dense and could be hiding unknown depths.

I think the scrambling moves Shaddowez a bit more in the scum direction for me, as his responses the other day did, but I'm not sold yet.

@Dys: What do you see in those responses that you don't like? Specifically, what's the scum-motive for his responses? I agree the logic is not good, and the explaination isn't that clear, but I get the impression there is something else bugging you about them. Care to share?

@Shaddowez: Why

didn't

you see a Phil/Acryon scum team. Obviously that

isn't

the scum team, but at the time, I thought it was a reasonable explaination (in fact, I thought it was

the

most reasonable explaination) for both of their behavior as the wagons developed on them. You dismissed it almost out of hand. Why?

[Fink]

Until we see some actual answers to all this brilliant, well-thought-out stuff:

VOTE: DCLXVI

This does not mean I'm not suspicous of Phil, he's still my top scum read. But I'm not lacking intention to lynch with this vote either. If scum are allowed to get away with this level of obfuscation and refusal to answer anything, they can get away with too much.

You got some 'spailing to do DCLXVI. Get in here and do it before too many other people vote with me.

With this amount of time passed, it's increasingly hard to believe this was all stuff that could have been answered off the cuff but you chose not to. Seems more like stretching for time to come up with things to meet our expectations.

[Fink]

Dys,

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the vote for Shaddowez right now. Ugh, this is way too gut-read, but I just can't see him as anything but a compromise lynch right now. I'm certainly not confident in his towniness either, but I think he's no better than null, while I think Phil, and DCLXVI if he keeps playing coy like this, are even more suspicous. You're not crazy, Shaddowez' reasoning does not make much sense. But the way he's presenting it, to me, looks like something reasonable coming from town who hasn't been thinking things through enough.

If Phil flips town, I'll be a hell of a lot more suspicous of Shaddowez. But I don't think that is likely.
If Phil flips scum, I'll be most suspicous of DCLXVI. I like that pairing much better.

[Fink]

Come on Thor, join me on DCLXVI until he produces the goods. Maybe enough votes will actually get an explaination.

Enough

votes will clarify his allignment permanently, and if explainations are not forthcoming, I think that's a reasonable way to get results too.

@Mod: Can we get a prod on DCLXVI please? And one on Droog if he doesn't post in the next two hours...

[Fink]

Delightful.

Try not to let yourself be blinded by scumreading me though please. Pay a bit of attention to what I'm saying about Phil.

[Fink]

Hey, sorry, I've been unexpectedly swamped this weekend, will be around for a couple hours now though. Droog, I'll read through and comment on all your stuff, but quite frankly when I went away for the night on Friday I was expecting a lot more. Why are you just talking about "from memory" on the me-and-Phil stuff from yesterday. It seems like that should be some important reading?

I am not very happy about DCXwhateverhe'sdeadtome replacing out, it means his mysterious reads and reasons will remain a mystery, and we can't even be sure if he had town or scum intent for delaying or if he just vanished off the face of the internet unrelatedly. I really hope he comes back after the game is over at at least explains what he was thinking, because this is bugging me.

I guess my vote isn't doing any good there at this point, so I'll go back to what I know best:
VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

[quote="In post 924, droog"
thor says that gingers have big dicks
thor then dies his hair red
what do you assume about thor?

phil says that scum do x
phil then does x
what do you assume about phil?[/quote]

I assume that Droog is making a fallacious argument.

Phil, earlier, in a forgetable post, comments on what is good play for scum.
Phil, when undersuspicious plays in a way that he has shown he believes to be good for scum.
That makes Phil scummy.

I don't think it's worth voting for on it's own, but I think it's another reason to be more sure of my suspicions.

@Droog: If you agree that Phil was doing what he thinks scum do, why

don't

you find that scummy?

[Fink]

observation
dys, 666, and fink all suavely worked themselves up to back acryon's lynch
reads more like they're convincing others than themselves
one is scum

I was convincing myself. And I was showing my thinking. I don't see what's wrong with either of these. We needed a lynch to get moving, Droog, Thor, Shaddowez, and DCXwhatever were voting Acryon. Blair, Acryon, and Phil were opposed to voting Acryon. As I've made clear before, it was obvious a Phil lynch that I most wanted wasn't going through.

Either Dys or I was going to have to vote Acryon or stall the day out. After some reflection, which I posted A LOT about, I decided that he had a better-than-random chance of being scum and was a detriment to town and someone I wouldn't want in LYLO even if he were town.

I stand by my vote. But I don't think it makes any of us three scum.

I'm particularly interested in why you see Roman Numeral Flaker Jerk as "suavely working himself up" for it, given that he was the first vote on the wagon.

And I'd like it if you could point out

why

thinking out loud and deciding to lynch Acryon is scummy, rather than just having you apply weasel word adjectives without any analysis or discussion of specific posts.

[Fink]

Do a quick Ctrl-F over Fink's ISO for Acryon. First mention is that Acryon is slightly scummy (from the first 10 pages alone) (#461), which is immediately revised to "dumb but probably town" (#480). There's then no significant mention of Acryon until #721, by which time, surprise surprise, Acryon is at L-1 (and has been for some time). At which point Fink immediately starts to turn on this previous town-read in the very next post-

i agree

It's almost like I started looking seriously at lynching Acryon only after it started looking like Phil wasn't going to be the lynch and the Acryon wagon needed a few more votes. We needed a lynch to get things moving and get some more information. When it started looking like Acryon was the most likely wagon, I started seriously looking at the pros and cons of voting for him. How terrible of me!

It's too bad I never explained my reasoning before now...

Oh wait, my overabundance of reasoning is what I was accused of in the previous post. You can't have it both ways.

[Fink]

@ Droog

i'm curious why you're unwilling to even read my posts then.

???????

SIGH.

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

(Sorry for the multipost)

Straight up lies here. How much more does it take guys?

VOTE: Phil

i have a short attention span
please explain the lie

In the

very next

post, BEFORE Droog wanted clarification

Actually, I should clarify that.

Phil is choosing to try to get the person most interested in lynching him lynched, rather than trying to figure out the person most likely to be scum. Since scum don't have night kills, this is the only way to get someone off their back.

Right. I need to go off briefly, but when I return, I'm gonna take a close look at people who changed their mind about Acryon when the wagon started gaining steam. I suspect we will find something VERY interesting in those last few votes.

You can already see in this quote, he's made up his mind. He doesn't say "people on the wagon" he says "people who changed their mind." I'm the one who most obviously talked about changing their mind.
[quote="In post 836
Now, I can appreciate this may well be a "he's at L-1, may as well question him properly" sort of thing- but if that's the case, why not put similar pressure on the person who you've repeatedly stated to be your top scumread, who was also "effectively" at L-1?

I thought Acryon made it

perfectly

clear that he wasn't going to vote for Phil. So Phil was never "effectively" at L-1. Phil was at L-2 plain and simple, and I held off more than long enough and argued with Acryon MUCH more than enough about this. This does speak to Phil's sincerity about not being willing to hammer Acryon (as he claimed he wouldn't).

(saying "only 3 of us seem interested in that" when basically everyone on one wagon except for thor has stated that they could be convinced to go for a Phil lynch is straight up not true)

Again, Droog, Thor, XCLVI-whatever, had already made it clear they wouldn't vote for Phil yesterday. The only other person on the Acryon wagon was Shaddowez, who wouldn't have been enough to lynch. It takes 5 to lynch. There were 3 of us on the wagon and 5 openly not willing to vote for Phil, and Shaddowez. That lynch was not happening.

The point: Phil is stretching here. He's not looking at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. From his first post it's clear he

never intends

to look at anyone else on the Acryon wagon. He's stretching hard for reasons to find me scummy. Town would be honestly concerned with finding scum. Scum would be concerned with getting the biggest advocate of their lynching off their back. Phil is behaving like scum.

[/quote]

[Fink]

why do you keep saying phil wasnt under suspicion?

At no point did I say this, he most certainly was, at least from Blair, Dys, and me.

[Fink]

"Sauve" is a loaded word.

I'm not being dramatic, using language like that without actual examples bothers me. It's banned on Wikipedia for a reason.

I think I explained my thought process very well, I'd like you to show us where you think it was faked, rather than asserting that it was only by use of slimy adjectives.

[Fink]

It's also worth pointing out that during the math debacle, I lost my exact numbers, because I decided at the time this was worthless and only liable to sidetrack things more, but 2/8 means a random person has a 25% chance of being scum.

So Phil, my most strongest scum read, I put at like 50% chance, why Dys, my strongest town read, I still give 5% chance of being scum. I came up with some rough numbers that day, and I had Acryon at like 35% chance.

I was not sold on him being scum, but I thought his odds of being scum were better than average, and again, now he can't be in LYLO. I don't think he'd have been any use to town. We only gain new information from new lynches, someone had to cast the last vote, that someone was me.

Do you find me scummier for having cast the last vote? If so, why?

[Fink]

@Droog: You found Phil scummy yesterday but not enough to vote for him. Do you think he's towny now? You still haven't commented on most of yesterdays Phil-related thoughts.

[Fink]

@Everyone else
What do you think of Droog's case on me?

And with that, I'm out for the night. Tomorrow should be less a flurry of posts and hopefully more of a slow trickle.

[Fink]

we have five mislynches left

i would rather have five mislynches than six with someone who will quickhammer

I am not in any way opposed to wgeurts policy lynch.

These two posts from the two scumreading me are bothering me. A big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read, especially because part of my reasoning on Acryon was that if he was town, it was no big loss (although as I said, I thought he had better-than-random chances of being scum).

But both of these two have taken such a position before. Something they are saying makes me scummy. I think this double-standard smells of scum over-sensitiveness to things they are feeling guilty about, and/or pushing a case they don't believe in.

At this point I'm moving Droog to a scum read, but Phil is still my preferred lynch of the two.

[Fink]

big part of the argument seems to be predicated on the notion that I shouldn't have voted for Acryon if Phil was my top scum read,

?????
i do not have time to address the rest right now but
where did i say this

((if i did say this i deserve a big "??????"))

That's certainly how I took "working himself up to vote Acryon."

If it wasn't that, then perhaps you could clarify why you think my vote was scummy. Specifically.

Also, you keep saying I'm not scumhunting, but why don't my repeated rereads and comments and cases on Phil, or my questioning of Blair count?

And don't you see that Acryon

looked

scummier, AND more clearly identified himself as uninterested in helping town during my questioning? It's almost as if I decided to vote for him based on my questioning. Why do you think it was useless?

[Fink]

If it wasn't that, then perhaps you could clarify why you think my vote was scummy. Specifically.

"i will convince myself that acryon is scum"
"i will convince everyone else that i think acryon is scum"

i am accusing you of the latter
which would come from scum motivation

it is not that you should have voted for someone else
or that i disagree with your reasons
or that i think the acryon lynch was a poor one

i think you are more interested in showing that you are scumhunting
"look at me im scumhunting"
then actually scumhunting
this is directly related to my thinking some of your questions to acryon were uselesss

Um, it seems like the reply you're looking for is the parts of my previous post you neglected to address.

Also, you keep saying I'm not scumhunting, but why don't my repeated rereads and comments and cases on Phil, or my questioning of Blair count?

And don't you see that Acryon

looked

scummier, AND more clearly identified himself as uninterested in helping town during my questioning? It's almost as if I decided to vote for him based on my questioning. Why do you think it was useless?

[Fink]

Welcome to the game Bob! Could you explain your town-read on Roman Numerals Guy please? What do you think of his reluctence to explain anything?

I know you probably aren't all the way caught up, but do you think you could review the wagon on Acryon in particular?

It started with post 679, when Roman XVWhatever came in.

Earlier on, Shaddowez gave his beginnings of a scum read here, which we all sort of overlooked at the time I think, since he didn't post for a long time before getting on the wagon. I know I forgot this initially, and I think no one mentionted it until Shaddowez brought it up much later.

Do you have any questions you want to ask us? I feel the game has stalled with so many replacements, and Droog and Phil seem unintested in having a discussion with me, both are in tunnel mode, and Thor is V/LA. I happen to think both are scum, but I'm not going to convince them of that. Let me know what you want to talk about and I'll happily oblidge.

[Fink]

Phil, are you still arguing with me about whether I should have waited for Droog "It's past hammer time" Droogensen to switch his vote to you? You seem to be attacking me emotionally and I can't figure out what you're wanting me to respond on.

I don't like your sudden switch from rational calmness to extreme emotion.

I would also say that I've done more scumhunting than you and Droog combined. Pressuring my top scum read and asking questions are pretty much the definition of scumhunting.

You've barely moved your vote all game, you've done barely any analysis of anything, and now you're blindly tunnelling me and have just about admitted to it. How is this a more useful contribution than asking people questions to attempt to get a read on them?

That question was rhetorical. It isn't.

[Fink]

I read a bunch of snippets of old Thor games trying to figure him out. Based on the section you read, he was a scum read of mine at that time too. But I've since moved him to town. I'm no expert on him though, and I hate to say too much since I haven't played with him outside this game, just read his ISOs in some old games.

That said, here's what I think I've figured out about him.

He seems to be abbrasive like that as town or scum, especially when he think people aren't paying attention to the game. This avoiding-giving-clear-reasons-for-votes thing annoys me, but again, he seems to do it in town and scum games. I get the impression he'd have been willing to outright policy-lynch wgeurts even if there wasn't any scummy timing to his hammer. I'm disinclined to read him as scum from that. (Thor, correct me if I'm misrepresenting you here.)

As for why I have him as a town read:
1. He seems frustrated with the game in a way that I suspect is townish of him, specifically he seems annoyed with the lack of effort on behalf of town players. I sort of think he'd try to guilt us a bit less or a bit differently if he was scum. I developed this impression when I got into the kerfuffle with him about his accusing me of not reading.
2. I know this is a minor thing, but scum have daychat in this setup. As I said to Acryon, I think if Thor were scum, he wouldn't let his buddies slack the way they've been slacking. I get the impression that everyone has been kind of half-assed this game. We've had so many replacements. I could hypothetically see a Thor/DXCVIguy scumteam, and early on I had thoughts of a Thor/Droog scumteam, but I just can't see him being scum with most of the players in this game.
3. When he started taking heat for making the game harder to read, it looks to me like he legitimately started trying not to, particularly sometime after I replaced in. He was huffy about it, and didn't say much about it, but he seemed to fade back a bit like asked. I think he could have been more disruptive while seeming townish and gotten away with it.
4. Process of elimination: Of the other players remaining, I find 4-5 of them scummier than Thor (I've been reevaluating your slot recently, and I think I'm back to the same sort of weak-but-going-with-it town read as I have on Thor for the moment). We know there are 2/8 scum, not 5/8.

That said, I think meta arguments are probably not so great here; something I gathered looking into him is that Thor is hard to read even to people who play with him a lot. So I think that if he

is

scum, the best chance to catch him is to catch his partner first. Without something much stronger, I'm not intersted in lynching Thor without lynching his scumbuddy first (barring some hypothetical endgame scenario.)

[Fink]

Bob: RE: "I'm as caught up as I ever will be"

I get not wanting to scrutinize the big wall arguments, they are pretty stupid and agonizing, but how should we talk to you about old posts. I'm already feeling that most of what I say isn't being read or at least not read carefully, but the posts with lots of quotes are what create walls. Would you prefer quotes, links, how should we try to point you at older material? IMO not much of current interest happened BEFORE the stupid Thor-Blair argument.

[Fink]

All fair points Bob, I don't disagree that Thor could concievably be scum. But that's why I don't think he is, that and the fact that everyone else is just so damn scummy. As I said, when we lynch scum if they look like thhey could have been a team with Thor, I'll reconsider. Until then, I'm not voting him.

I agree, I don't have a strong, concrete reason to think he's town, but I do.

[Fink]

@Bob

I'm interested in what I think Thor's trying to get at, i.e. what

is

it about him that makes you think he wouldn't put something at L-1.

In our exchange the other day, you mentioned a talk with him about theory, but can you elaborate on that please?

And you said you believe he should have known this town was likely to quicklynch. Why should he have known that? What specifically in this game, and what in general indicate that to you?

[Fink]

Phil, I agree with this. But Bob's reads don't look the same as Blair's to me. What is it that looks like it came from a strategy post?

My point was that if anyone replaces in and then has suspiciously similar (as in PRECISELY similar) reads to the previous occupant to that slot, but with different thought processes stated, this might indicate that they were drawing those "reads" from a strategy post of some description in the scum QT.

[Fink]

Dys, if you're talking about #978, I wasn't having a great day and had kinda got to the end of my wits with everything and ended up sort of venting. My apologies for that, I'll try not to let it happen again.

@Phil:
This is what bothered

me

the other day too, when I said you got suddenly emotional. I'd thought we were starting to agree on some things and actually have a dialogue despite finding each other scummy and then you suddenly snapped. What set you off?

(I've been kind of at my wits' end with you and Droog for a while now too, but I've been starting to worry that hostility could be clouding both of us.)

@Everyone Else: I can't tell if
a) Everyone is sick of hearing me talk about Phil and isn't interested in anything I'm saying.
b) No one is clear on why I find Phil scummy because that's been lost along the way somewhere.
c) People get what I'm saying but have no interest in voting Phil today.
d) Other.

I'm debating trynig to write up a summary of thoughts about Phil, but is that something I should even bother with, or is it something no one wants to read, as is starting to be my impression?

[Fink]

Regarding the Phil wagon:

Something that's made me slightly more confident on my scumread on Phil is just how slow his wagon is to get any votes on it, despite people expressing at least some agreement with me. I know some of this is probably due to the constant replacements, but it really feels to me like at most points there should have been another vote or two on him than there were. It's the opposite of fast moving. Could just be that I haven't explained myself enough, but I feel like I've been doing that

ad nauseum

. Could just be coincidence. But it doesn't do much to make me doubt myself.

[Fink]

That is unrelated to Bob, actually, but I find it interesting that you think it is.

Bob is the only recent replacement who has had any reads, and he's the topic of the thread right now. Why is it interesting that I'd think you were talking about Bob? New(est) guy hasn't said anything of substance yet, DCXwhatever has come and gone without you mentioning it, and I've been here for quite a while now.

Who were you talking about, and why is it surprising I assumed you meant Bob?

[Fink]

the thing I like about Droog's case on Fink is his main point that he is "playing for the audience" so to speak.

@Dys: I've been struggling to get an explaination of this out of Droog: could you explain where and how I'm "playing for the audience"

specifically

. I think I've been more-or-less thinking out loud in my posts all game. Is there something different about the posts I made about Acryon? Is it just because Acryon turned out to be a mislynch? Or is it that people are now forgetting my posts on Blair, Phil, Thor, Shaddowez, or my initial catch-up posts?

How was my discussion of Acryon different from the thinking out loud I've been doing all game?

[Fink]

I was talking in general. As I said in the next sentence. It was just a thought I'd had. It would be applying to yourself, 666, Bob and Bert as soon as he speaks up with some substance.

Okay, but why is it insteresting that I thought you meant Bob?

[Fink]

Droog - At this point, do you think that it's more likely for Bob to be scum than Fink, or do you just think it more likely for a Bob lynch than a Fink lynch?

@Shaddowez: Droog is currently voting me, and was when you asked this. Why are you treating him as if he's voting for Bob? Why did you phrase the question this way?

[Fink]

@Bob

My page 2 reads are usually very gut-driven and abstract, so no.

It's totally fair for your page 2 reads to be gut-driven and abstract, but why is that what you choose to focus on the most when replacing into a game then? I know the walls were painful, I've reread them 3 fricking times at this point, but there's also a lot after the big wall arguement that you chose not to read? Have you ISO'd Thor since then? What do you think of his play around the Blair wagon?

don't ridicule me too much
1) you might accidentally peer-pressure people into voting me
that wouldn't be a bad thing if it didn't have any consequences, but 2) you'll definitely be lynched the day after me
3) I'd aim for another compromise and keep people doubting

1) Why do you think we'd vote for you because Thor ridicules you?
2) What is it with your slot and making promises about how the rest of us are going to lynch? Why would you think mislynching you would lead to lynching Thor? He's been voting your slot forever?
3) What does this even mean?

It's only fear mongering if you identify with the scum persona I fleshed out.

Your post was essentially addressed to

town

though. You don't want people to be peer-pressured by Thor into voting for you. And scum or town, would you expect Thor to unvote you because of empty threats?

What is it about Thor's response that makes you think he's identifying with the scum persona you described.

And address this please:

No one even questioned whether it was a good idea other than to be a bit slow about hammering the lynch?
And I *did* lambast them?

So...what sort of attitude did you expect and not see again?

[Fink]

I'm interested in what I think Thor's trying to get at, i.e. what is it about him that makes you think he wouldn't put something at L-1.

I'm not sure he wouldn't have done it, but I think the way he went about it was weird (I know I implied something else in 1008, but that was me getting fed up)

drawing strong reads from the first few pages and being unable to properly articulate them isn't a new issue for me

as bert and thor can attest, in playing card, I got a strong gut read on one scum after another flipped based on early interactions, but I got lynched before him and at least for some people on my wagon it was mainly because of this

I can see how you'd think this is an easy thing to hide behind, but my scum game is strong enough that I don't have to and I never have

I can understand getting fed up. But answer the question: Why

specifically

do you think Thor's putting someone at L-1 was weird?

[Fink]

@Thor: Could you address this one next time you check in please?

what are you implying? that I made you my top scumread so people would think, "yeah thor is scumreading that guy but that guy is also scumreading him back now I'm not sure anymore who's right"? or that I thought that people would think you were the natural choice for me? or that I simply not know any better than pushing back on the player who tries to run me up?

[Fink]

Final post of my catching up: Why the hell is Droog "throwing me in the scum pile" for a typo?

It reads to me like he's not interested in actually catching scum, merely in finding reasons to push a wagon he wasn't interested in before the Acryon lynch but now sees as viable. i.e. the behavior of scum rather than town.

I'm done responding to him on the issue of me because he's not reading or comprehending what I'm saying, but Thor/Dys/Bob/Shaddowez/Bert, please feel free to highlight anything Droog says that you actually think has merit and I'll address it for you. I just don't see the point in arguing with what is either scum or rabid, irrational town, I'm not going to convince him of anything. And I think his responses today have been scummy as hell.

[Fink]

It's totally fair for your page 2 reads to be gut-driven and abstract, but why is that what you choose to focus on the most when replacing into a game then? I know the walls were painful, I've reread them 3 fricking times at this point, but there's also a lot after the big wall arguement that you chose not to read? Have you ISO'd Thor since then? What do you think of his play around the Blair wagon?

the starting argument was "I'm not being illogical you're scum for calling me illogical"

it shifted to "I did a reaction test and I was exaggerating and it was on purpose and you didn't get that and you didn't immediately feel like explaining inconsistency isn't inherently scummy"
it's complete shit
I ignored it because it doesn't really reinforce my scumread and I have no interest in continuing the wall argument in blair's place

I wasn't asking you to actually read the Blair v. Thor walls, I was asking about why you didn't want to read the stuff after that. You initially responded as if the entire game were walls from there on out.

[Fink]

FYI Thor has replied to posts he thinks are dumb with smileys in games where he has been town. It isn't fearmongering.

[Fink]

@Droog: When did Phil go from someone you'd entertain lynching to your top town read? Why?

[Fink]

And for my last post of the night, here's the core of my case on Phil. Leaving out details as that's the whole point as I understand it, but I'll be happy to (re)elaborate if anyone who might vote for Phil cares to ask.

• Phil behaved as if he knew wgeurts would flip town, despite claiming wgeurts was his strongerst scum read.
  
  
• Phil is excessively cautious about moving his vote or revising his reads, in a way that looks like paranoia of being called out for inconsistency.
  
  
• This is extremely consistent with what he previously claimed was best play for scum in his own opinion.
  
  
• Phil has repeatedly misrepresented the possibility of a lynch on him instead of Acryon just before I switched my vote yesterday, and has been repeating this both to make it seem more "true", and to keep me arguing with him about it so others would lose the thread.
  
  
• Phil is uninterested in actual scumhunting, especially when it might require him to take a new stance (ex. he had no comment on me-vs.-Blair yesterday, and was uninterested in really looking at other people on the Acryon wagon early today).
  
  
• Phil finds me scummy for riling people up, yet has Thor as his strongest town read. That's more of a double standard than Blair had.

[Fink]

I'm interested in looking at Thor's contention that Bob's reads are made up, so I'm going to look at all the posts on page 2 that he could have formed reads from.

page 2
droog seems town
thor doesn't

if I understand the setup correctly, johnny staying alive was pretty essential to the scumteam
thor would want the first day to end before he's forced to oppose the johnny wagon

also "I townread droog" doesn't feel natural in context

What I notice (which I think is what Thor is talking about) is that Bob is

already

approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. Obviously he looked at the flips (and I think he agreed he saw a current votecount) so he's read a touch more than just pages 1 and 2, but I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

Anyway, let's look at what was posted up until page 2 to generate these reads.

Droog seems town

post 15: "If you say stupid things you will start stupid discussions" & votes Cheetory to drive 2 wagons.
post 16: Notices that YYR voted twice, so wagons aren't tied.
post 30: Confirming Dys' explaination of Droog's miscounting wgeurts/Cheetory votes. Don't see how you could get anything from this.
post 32: "Question was dumber than autocorrect." That's all, again not allignment indicative.
post 34: Explaining to Dys why he thinks YYR's question is dumb (because it will only lead to someone calling it dumb or meta talk). I don't see how this is alignment indicative either, but it does take a stance, so I guess maybe you could.
post 37: Snarky empty reply.
post 38: "Do you?" (Asking if Dys has anything to say.)
post 40: Explaining to Cheetory that his reasoning about the useless question has nothing to do with his Cheetory vote.

Thor doesn't

There's only 2 of these, so I'll just quote them, esp. since they're the most important part:

Vote: Cheetory

L-1
Anyone who isn't serious about this can flee like children now. We have a wagon at near lynch.
I am also open to hear from anyone who likes the idea of hammering it.

I townread Droog.
I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, especially since it seems to me like most of the players here seem experienced enough to know that bandwagon analysis can be useful for town. Why would scum not simply position themselves on a wagon in such a way that will protect them from the general analysis players apply to bandwagons? Unless the point is just to put pressure on someone? Which, again, scum equally stands to benefit from safe bandwagon votes for the sake of appearing to be playing protown.

droog's vote on me stands out as the most likely candidate for scum posing as a protown player for adding momentum to a wagon without really doing anything else, which reads as coasting to me. By extension, I'm also not particularly a fan of Dys's vote, but I feel worse about droog's. Droog also calls YYR's questioning of me bad scumhunting which almost makes me feel like he finds YYR more questionable than me and thus makes his vote on me for purely bandwagon's sake even more questionable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But you're pointing out that bandwagoning isn't helpful because scum can place themselves on bandwagons in a way to avoid suspicion.
You then vote Droog for the reasoning of "his position on the bandwagon looks suspicious"

I feel like I *must* be reading this wrong, because if I'm not I feel like you just claimed scum. Discuss?

Thor's first post seems to me like a way to see what everyone does and push the game forward: he wants to see who unvotes, who considers hammering. It seems like he's trying to put everyone in a weird position. I don't find it scummy, but I guess I can see that, but not as a strong read.

Thor's second post (immediately after the first) seems to be supporting his vote in his first post as a serious vote. The "claimed scum" thing is over-the-top (as has been discussed

ad nauseum

) but he does appear to be legitimately pressing a scum read. He's just doing it antagonistically.

So here's Bob's elaboration on this later (regarding Thor's first post):

I've talked to you about anti-town behavior and mafia principles, which is what this is all about
You had a way more self-righteous attitude when talking about it in md
It's hard to say why your attitude isn't
Why should page 2 reads be easier to explain than page 40 reads? I find them equally hard to articulate.

Bob doesn't really elaborate on why he finds Thor's first post so scummy. I think the "anti-town" behavior thing comes from Thor's voting of wgeurts, but seeing as how the thread in MD where they interact is about Thor wanting to policy-lynch anyone who self-votes, the actual act of voting for scummy-quickhammering wgeurts is far from surprising.

What Bob seems to be saying, though, is that Thor is softer in his lynching of wgeurts here, and therefore scum. I'm not sure I buy the premise, but even if we grant that, the conclusion doesn't follow.

[*]Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.
[*]Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

This doesn't make any sense.

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

@Mod: Is it permissable to post quotes from the Mafia Discussion forum in game?

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Presuming Not_Mafia okays it, could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

@Thor: After Bob goes, could you explain why

you

townread Droog in that first post? Also your early Dys read?

[Fink]

That got a bit wallish, so let me summarize for anyone too lazy to read.

Bob when reading page 2 is already approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

I don't even think Thor's first 2 posts look scummy. I don't think Droog's first few posts look towny either (I'd have had him at null). My early-game scumread on Thor came later than this.

Bob quoted Thor's 1st post later, but didn't give much elaboration on it. The logic he uses is

Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.
Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

This doesn't make any sense.

Droog has moved Phil to his top townread, Dys has abandoned the Phil wagon, we're getting close to deadline and I'm townreading Thor. Bob has come in and has made a really scummy case.

Go ahead and throw me on the scum pile for this Phil, I know I'm changing my previous position like some kind of evil pragmatist.

VOTE: Bob

[Fink]

@Mod: In addtion to the MD discussion question, is it permissible to post quotes from finished games?

[Fink]

Something I re-found from browsing old Thor games. These both come from page #1 of a finished game where Thor was Vanilla Town.

Unvote: Nachomamma8
Vote: Red Coyote

Speed wagon ho!

@Myrk - we do not need to confirm.
Also, if you're town - replace out, I don't need someone who is going to be not interested in the game on my team.

Unvote: Red Coyote
Vote: Mykonian

L-1 on Myrk.
Trololololol.

Why don't you explain what you know about me as far as that comment making me scum?

I'm pretty sure his jumping on L-1 is alignment-null.

[Fink]

@Bob: What makes you think wgeurts was a pure policy lynch?

[Fink]

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

[Fink]

Lalala. So, are we lynching Bob?

If it's Bob vs. Thor, absolutely. If we can get a few more on Phil, I'm even happier with that, but by my count it's you, me, and probably Bob if it were him-or-Phil. Droog's townreading Phil now, and Thor still is, so unless Shaddowez and 4th-time's-the-charm-hopefully guy both want to lynch Phil, it looks like Bob is the best lynch.

No way in hell am I voting Thor or you at this point.

But with only 6 active, it's going to be pretty damn hard to get 5 votes on anyone. Assuming no self-votes, that means everyone else has to be unanimous. So what we really need is those other two to catch up and have some opinions.

[Fink]

I'm V/LA for an indefinite amount of time.

My laptop has decided it doesn't like to boot up anymore. Not sure how long it will take me to fix it, but don't have time to focus on it much this week. Until then I'm posting from my girlfriend's laptop in coffee shops. I'll still attempt to post at least daily, and if she's nice I might be able have some entire days where I can be online and doing things. But I can no longer guarantee that I won't have a sudden lack-of-internet for a few days, so I'm going V/LA.

I'll let you guys know when I have a more permanent solution.

[Fink]

Holy crap, Shaddowez just voted Phil.

I'll say more/catch up tomorrow, but for now

VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

Good news everyone!

I've got a computer for several hours in the morning and again in the late afternoon, so I can catch up and give more extensive comments. Still no idea about tomorrow or the rest of the week though, so my Access remains Limited.

Yesterday I had like 15 minutes to post in 2 games, so I was pretty brief, let me expand on that...

[Fink]

Phil is my top scumread. Bob's terrible coming in so strongly sure that Thor was scum based on

nothing

on page 2 and talking about Thor's grand scum plan just seems so manufactured that although I was torn both ways on Blair, that makes him pretty damn scummy in my eyes and catapults him to scumread #2.

BUT I can't see Bob & Phil as a scum team. So while I'm increasingly convinced both are scum, I'm also convinced that I'm probably wrong about one of them. Whichever one is

not

scum is making up facts to fit their tunnel read, which is absurdly anti-town, so my ideal solution is to lynch both of them. Obviously if the first one is scum, there's no point lynching the other, but I really won't lose much sleep over the choice.

I can see Phil-Bert, Phil-Droog, Phil-Thor, or Bob-Shaddowez, Bob-Bert, Bob-Droog, or maybe even Bob-Dys (although Dys remains my strongest town read).

So obviously I'd prefer to figure out which of them is scum. Which is

why

I switched my vote. Let's say I keep my vote on Bob without bothering to switch to Phil. Then we lynch Bob. If he's scum (50% IMO), great, I can start working from a sort of town-bloc. But if he's town, then Phil remains my top scumread and we have no more information on him.

One reason I prefer the Phil lynch is that Bob seemed to be taking off better on it's own, but Phil has had

so much

trouble getting going, and I've frequently felt like people were ignoring me or deliberately misunderstanding my argument. Since we've so rarely had a full roster paying attention, this makes me think it likely that scumPhil's partner is subtley keeping the pressure off him. That's what puts Phil at my preferred lynch.

By pressing Phil, even if we lynch Bob and he flips town, I have more to go on in thinking about Phil. And if we lynch Phil, then we'll have lynched my top scumread, so there's also that.

[Fink]

Despite the mod error, I do believe it's against the spirit of the game to just no-lynch into eternity. It's also really lame. So given that I

am

scumreading Bob, I'll hammer him if no one is interested in joining me on Phil.

@Dys: Would you still be willing to join me on Phil if we got enough to lynch him? (I do agree we need a lynch, and I'm happy to hammer Bob if it comes to that, but while we've got some actual commitment on Phil from Shaddowez, I want to look into it. Although it totally also makes me think of a Shaddowez-Bob scumteam possibility. What do you think of that?

@Bob: We've pretty much only seen your opinions on Thor. Talk to me about my Phil case a bit. In the event you flip town, it would be nice to have some confirmed town feedback on this from someone else.

@Shaddowez: Why do you prefer Phil over Bob? I don't mean why is Phil scummy, I mean why

didn't

you want to vote for Bob given that he looked like the wagon for the day?

@Thor: You've been townreading Phil all day. Could you expand on your townread for me please?

@Bert: How long until you're caught up???!

[Fink]

I'm REALLY liking Bob/Fink right now. The moment that an alternate lynch became even possible, he's off Bob's wagon like a shot.

Though I will admit I would probably be criticizing him for not following up his #1 scumread if he didn't do that. So actually, scratch that. Sorry.

Phil, I could have attacked Thor in the first place instead of defending him. Like if I'm scum with Bob, why the hell would I go out of my way to find old games with which to call Bob's case on his counterwagon bullshit? That just makes 0 sense to me.

It seems like you just see everything I do as scummy, no matter what I do. And I've been scumreading you for having scum reads that seem based on nothing...

Posts like this make me worry that we're town-on-town and are both going to facepalm at the end of the game.
And fuck. Your self-doubt has me wanting to hammer the Bob wagon. Unless you've just figured out how to manipulate me. This game...

[Fink]

@Thor:

That post got across your read more clearly than the previous times you've said something like that (and yes, I was thinking you might have had new thoughts about him today.) Thanks for restating.

Back before Bob came in, was there anything about Blair

besides

the double-standard and the weird reaction when you started pressing her on it? What was it about the era of the big wall posts that bothered you and does it seem like a stronger or weaker thing now?

[Fink]

Back before Bob came in, was there anything about Blair besides the double-standard and the weird reaction when you started pressing her on it? What was it about the era of the big wall posts that bothered you and does it seem like a stronger or weaker thing now?

No, other than the things I was pressing her on there was nothing I wanted to press her on.

I don't really understand the second part of the question. I guess "the same" is the answer? I think you're basically asking me if my read has grown stronger or not.

Yeah, sorry that looks unclear to me too now. I was asking if your read on Blair has changed (and yeah, you did answer that.) What I was trying to get at is that Bob has made me read the slot as scummier, and I'm pretty sure this is true of essentially everyone. I was wondering if, in retrospect, it made anything about your early scumread on Blair stronger or weaker than it was at the time when Blair occupied the slot.

And the main reason I'm picking your brain about this is, in the event Bob flips town, I want to know very specifically where you were coming from before you saw the flip. I'll probably still be defending you, but I want to be sure of that.

[Fink]

@Droog: What's weird about Dys' post specifically?

[Fink]

Thor, at this point I think I'm clear, I was just making sure.

I am inclined to hammer Bob tonight before I give up the computer I'm borrowing for the day. I would really like to hear back from Shaddowez and Dys (and actually Bob himself), but if I get two of those I guess I should consider myself lucky...

I don't know, I guess that's all I wanted to say. I'll wait for replies from them but I'll hammer before leaving the internet for the day and judge them for not answering.

[Fink]

@Bob, I'd appreciate your thoughts on my Phil case even if he hasn't got back to you (if it gets to around 5PM U.S. Eastern time and he still hasn't responded.) Because I'm going to hammer you before I leave, seeing as we need a lynch and I don't know if I'll be online tomorrow.

I'll post it here if and when I can lock down a solution for tomorrow.

@Thor: I actually did think of one last thing I wanted to ask you: You townread Phil, so why do you think he's repeatedly misrepresenting my chances of getting him lynched yesterday? A majority had said they weren't lynching him and he keeps going back and denying this.

I've stopped arguing with him because I take it to be a scum-motivated attempt to derail everything. What town motive do you see for it?

@Bob: If you have thoughts on the above question I'm posing to Thor, please address that in a few hours as well.

[Fink]

On why PHil was unlynchable yesterday, again

Blair, Dys, and I were willing to vote Phil. 2 more were needed for lynch. Which 2 of these do you think Phil is unclear on.

DCLXVI:

I'm not interested in letting Acryon off the hook, and I'm seeing the potential for that. I'm not very high on a Phil lynch either right now.

Shaddowez:

when I first did my reads list I did feel acryon was scummier than Phil. My read on Phil is partly PoE, and based more on his lack of scum hunting and following up on things. My read on acryon is actually based on things he is saying/how he is saying them, along with his interactions with other people. Additionally, I'm still suspicious of Dys (where my vote was before I moved it), and I see Dys/acryon being a more likely team than Dys/Phil. Since Phil and acryon were the two viable wagons, since I moved my vote off Dys I'm going to move it to who I see as her partner.

Thor:

He's obligated to do this due to the hardline stance he took about me (even though it's only a presumption on his part who I suspected more and not anything I said, but, still, he's obligated)

To answer your question - no, I am unlikely to vote Phil, I feel I have made that clear.

Acryon:

The pressure on Phil will still be there after I die; the pressure on Thor won't. If I die with my vote on Thor, then at least that will remain as something to be referenced. Moving my vote to Phil will only help add to a wagon that has plenty of momentum on its own.

Plus some more, I think everyone agreed I badgered Acryon

too much

about Phil, didn't they?

Droog:

To Acryon

seeing your thought process explained
1) i still think its naively wronng
2) i sympathize with it more which means im leaning more town on you

not enough of a shift to make me think you arent the best lynch option right now

666 why are you piling on the acryon case
he's getting lynched that's not changing

It's past hammer time

So yeah, Thor (and to a lesser extent Droog and Phil), where were those 2 votes supposed to come from exactly?

[Fink]

And more significantly, Phil hasn't just been arguing that it's

possible

for me to have got him lynched yesterday, he was arguing that I should have been confident enough in my ability to get 2 of the above to vote for him that I shouldn't have changed my vote.

I've been saying this was bullshit since like my first post of the day, and no one has been agreeing with me for some reason. Why not?

[Fink]

I'd been avoiding getting into this more since your earlier, similar advice. But it's been driving me nuts that people are just ignoring it.

It's not about me being more right about something, it's about Phil knowingly pushing a bad case and trying to engage me on this stupid thing repeatedly, especially after it became clear it was something I'd like to get into but was trying not to. It's about him

misrepresenting me

and my entirely reasonable belief that a Phil lynch wasn't happening. Fundamentally I'm trying to show that it was reasonable of me to give up on lynching Phil, but the thing is this isn't about defending myself from Phil's case, it's about pointing out that Phil is making up an entirely different game state than the one that existed in order to push his bad case. It's about lying and misrepresenting the facts.

And it's about his repeatedly bringing this up because it's a good way to derail me. And a good way to get people to "remember" things in a way different from how they happened.

And it's also about Droog's unquestioning agreement with Phil on this.

[Fink]

that's an elaboration on this his attitude on the wtgeurts lynch

My bad. Yes it is. I was copying and pasting together a big list of quotes and must have copied the wrong thing. Hold on a sec and I'll post the one I meant.

[Fink]

Okay so I posted the part of the quote I wanted to delete and vice versa. And then I reread it and revised some stuff, which made it a bit more muddled. Here's what I meant to quote as your response.

I think you correctly assessed this town as likely to quickhammer. I'm not against quick L-1 wagons, but you really give me that feeling.

And "I townread droog" just sounds really mechanical after that L-1 speech.

Which is what my comment: "Bob doesn't really elaborate on why he finds Thor's first post so scummy." was actually about.

Speaking of which, 2 questions
1: Why were you so sure of your read so quickly. I get that you had a read, but you seemed to be considering it in exclusion of everything else from a point in the game that is absurd?

2: Could you actually quote the MD self-voting policy lynch thread post(s?) that made you think Thor would react differently?

[Fink]

you have to understand that these were my page 2 reads and I didn't expect them to be a big part of my catch-up post when writing them

would you mind if I'd made that statement and quickly retracted it if it'd been part of a small essay

I had no idea that day 1 was only four pages long, that there were very little interactions with johnny, that day 2 would be mostly policy lynch talk and miscommunication and that by day 3 the discussion had become so convoluted that I didn't even feel like paying attention anymore

Yes, if that had been part of a small essay, I would have received it differently. But that's assuming the small essay had similar supposition about "scumDroog would be motivated to do X because Y, and scumBins would have addressed Z." It wasn't the speculation on Thor, it was the speculation being limited to Thor, implying to me that was all you cared about.

And the fact that you wrote so little necessarily puts more focus on what you

did

write.

Also, the fact that you then built a case on this reasoning also made it more central.

It never was just a comment, that's the problem. And I get getting frustrated with Blair v. Thor (as I mentioned, I've read it 3 times and was pulling my hair out on the last one) but the disinterest in things in the later part of Day 3 like DCXVIwhatever-(did I just get that right for once?), Thor vs Dys, me and Thor and Dys vs. Blair, the Acryon wagon etc. only served to make it look like you were more interested in driving a Thor (mis)lynch than finding scum.

[Fink]

Which of the bold points didn't you get from the md-thread?

If it's "you don't want to be seen as the bad guy socially", that should be "you want to keep people on your side morally, even outside the game," and it applies more to people in general than to thor specifically.

While that phrasing does clarify what you mean somewhat, it doesn't answer the reason I'm trying to get you to dig up a quote: you seem to have a very firm idea of how he'd react. The way you referenced that thread, I thought you were seeing something in particular there that I might have missed (it is kind of long after all). I broadly agree with your characterization of Thor, but I think the thing is, I broadly agree with Thor. i.e. I think I would lynch you if you self voted. I think I'd tell you to take the stupid vote off yourself first, but I wouldn't townread someone for it, and I might scumread someone for it.

So I'm wondering if your difference in thinking from me is what led you to think Thor would react differently, because he reacted in a way I'd expect him to. After all, he wanted to lynch wgeurts, and the whole point of a policy lynch (which we've agreed was not the entirety of the case) is that something is so anti-town you can't let scum get away with it, and you can't let town get away with it lest they then pull the same thing as scum later.

So Thor reacted the way I expected, and not the way you expected, I'm trying to pick your brain about our differences.

1. So am I correct in assuming there's no specific quote, just general attitude from the thread?

2. You said you expected him to be more self-righteous, and then that you expected him to listen to the pleas of a newbie. But that second expectation would seem to clash with your characterization of him. Isn't a recurring theme of that thread lynching people so they don't repeat their mistakes? So I'm still not clear about what you expected and why, and we've been talking around this for a week now.

[Fink]

Okay, so I've secured internet access for tomorrow midmorning and afternoon. Given this, I will hold off on hammering.

I'm assuming the two ways this can go down is that Dys can be our Phil hammer or I can be our Bob hammer. I'm not particularly impressed with Bob's defense today. But my case on Phil isn't just "bad case = scum" either. I keep pointing out that the scum intent is that making things up about the previous day is a good way to get a mislynch.

I want to see Shaddowez and Dys elaborate on the Phil vs. Bob thing and the questions I asked them earlier.

@Dys: You're still willing to hammer Phil I presume? What do you think about the merits of the two wagons, I'm still willing to hammer Bob.

@Bert: What is it about Bob that makes you unable to vote for him?

@Everyone: Is it just me, or did the Bob wagon really move faster than the Phil wagon? Is there anything worth reading into this or am I being paranoid? I'd love it if several people could mention their thoughts on this.

@Phil: So which 2 votes

do

you think I should have been able to get yesterday?

[Fink]

And I'm out for the night, but one last thought:

I want to lynch someone soon, but if logistics mean it has to wait a day or something, we can take advantage of the mod error and lynch on Wednesday or something if we have to, but we shouldn't put it off too much. I think I'd still prefer to figure this out by tomorrow, but if Dys is the only one willing to hammer PHil or something but she wants feedback, I don't see too much harm in waiting a day.

I vote that next day we try to get our votes organized earlier instead of sitting around not posting for 2 days.

[Fink]

OH, one last thing:

@Bob (and anyone else that might know) Is this the normal way Bert comes into a game? Would we expect more content/comments or is this about average?

[Fink]

Hi, I'm back. It looks like I may not have any internet access tomorrow. So in the interest of seeing the flip and posting in the early day, and because it really doesn't look like Dys is going to show up in the next 3 hours if she hasn't already, I'm going to just hammer.

Intent to hammer Bob

Any last words or last-minute thoughts?

[Fink]

Actually, we've been getting all the reads and questions out of him already and he's been on the verge of death for like 2 days, I want to see the flip.

Bob, if you have something to say, say it before Not_Mafia gets back in here.

VOTE: Bob

[Fink]

Bicephalous Bob (5)- Thor665, droog, Phillammon, Dyslexicon, Fink LYNCHED
Phillammon (3)- Shaddowez, Bicephalous Bob, Bert (L-2)

Okay, so I'm going to reread some of the early day stuff with the knowledge that Blair was town for sure. Given how little of the game he apparently read, I'm not sure there's much to gain from Bob other than the weak Thor case none of us liked, but Blair gives a different perspective than the one we collectively lynched; I think she's worth some rereads.

I have a hard time believing scumShaddowez would have come in and almost derailed a wagon on town like that, even if Phil flips town too, Shaddowez couldn't have known that it wouldn't have ended up somewhere else. So this lynch moves Shaddowez back to a townread for me.

We need to see more from Bert, Fokem was absent, Bins contributed nothing of substance, DCXVIwhatever came in towny and went out scummy, and Bert has done basically nothing. I'm not sure how I feel about him. A bit more input please!

I don't think Thor would have tunneled so long and hard as scum on just the one player, for weeks on end, but I'm not really sure, I think that merits some looking into. I'll try to find something, but any thoughts from you Bert?

For now I still think Thor is likely town.

Dys' absence gives me cause to doubt her now, but I still find her reasoning overall townish.

So my scumreads are Phil and Droog still.

More later, but for now I'll do what I do best and...
VOTE: Phil

[Fink]

Assuming they're both scum, I think a Phil flip gives us more information than a Droog flip, we've had voting on Phil happen on two different days and a lot of opinions on it (and in my opinion a lot of

ignoring

opinions on it.)

If only one of the two is scum, I find Phil scummier plus I think he works with potential scum pairs other than Droog (i.e. Bert-Phil makes a lot of sense to me. And Thor-Phil actually.)

In the unlikely event that Phil and Droog are both town, I think Phil

still

provides more information, again more people have reacted to him

So I think Phil is the superior lynch of my scumreads, but Droog and Bert are also in the pool. I'm going to go find some Thor scumgames to assuage or feed my paranoia. Then hopefully a reread of Blair before the day is out.

[Fink]

So this is not my week with computers. Had 3 scumgames open and was looking through them and it caused a kernel panic on my gf's computer (which I am borrowing but can't borrow tomorrow.)

I did see something in the postgame commentary of one along the lines of "I just steamrolled after you hard because I knew you were a weak player and no one would stick up for you." but I also seem to remember this behavior in a town Thor game I was looking at before. So given what Thor said above, let's just call it null, Thor would relentlessly go after a player he thinks is weak/scummy regardless of alignment. Do you agree with that Thor? (I'll probably end up refinding these and reading some at a later date, but I think I want to get looking at Blair's ISO)

@Thor: So why'd you vote for Shaddowez?

[Fink]

Actually Thor's logic is pretty good. I'm still really into lynching Phil, but reading Blair's ISO isn't doing much for me. Blair vs. Thor does seem reasonably likely to be town-on-town. I don't like Phil's coming in with the whole "attacking the man" thing when Blair called Thor's argument illogical, reigniting some tensions that were diffusing and wasting even more time after it was becoming obnoxious.

But I'm not going to sell anyone new with that. I still want to lynch Phil, but I like the idea of trying to gain more information. But I townread Shaddowez, so I want to present an alternative to Thor's Shaddowez wagon:

VOTE: Bert

Reasons to follow momentarily.

[Fink]

So here's what Bert's slot had to say immediately before and after the Acryon lynch.

Hammer away. There is a lot I've been holding off on saying until after this lynch.

Referring to my asking him why he was waiting.

I assure you that my reasons are completely reasonable and I reason that they have been thought through for reasonably significant amount of time.

I'd like to see DCL address the wagon and the results.

That's been my plan.

Phil is town and lynching him is an absolutely terrible idea.

On lunch break now, I can explain more fully if necessary this evening.

And he finally explains his reasons:

@Fink,

my reasons were that I was not going to take the time to make a full list of reads when Acryon's flip would have a major effect on most of them.

I'm lazy that way. It's also a lot easier for me to form reads on players while I am playing with them rather than 25 pages of posts. When I replace in I do put more weight on what is happening while I am playing as opposed to what happened early in the game.

It wasn't that I didn't have thoughts on pretty much everyone, I did, I just didn't see the value in sharing them at that point in time. I did share the one's that I believed were necessary.

As mentioned in my last post I will have my info and reads tonight.

There is no way this qualifies as "a lot I've been holding off on saying" or a good reason for doing so. He implied there were things going on.

Now the near-constant replacements of this slot have ensured that we've never had much to go on. But Bin's read list was vague and a lot of you guys already said you thought it looked made up. And while DCLXVI did a bunch to dispel suspicion when he came in, this looked to me a lot like scum trying to set himself up for extra town credit when it came time to look at the wagon votes.

Additionally, I thought at the time there was some tactical lurking going on before he flaked. I was waiting to jump on him about this but he was too into never explaining anything.

And now Bert has barely said 2 sentences to us. This slot is empty noise and lurking whenever input would be helpful from it.

Honeymoon is over.

[Fink]

NOTE: I wasn't skipping posts. Those were all the posts before he flaked aside from this final one, which was nothing.

Yes, I am aware I didn't post last night. I had to work in the evening. I am free tonight and there will be stuff in the next few hours.

[Fink]

I am no longer V/LA

My computer is still broken but I've found a solution that is good for quite a bit of internet access until at least next Monday. At that point I may or may not have to be considered "Limited Access" again, I'll let you know.

I will catch up on the thread today and comment on what needs commenting on. Thanks for the patience.

[Fink]

Honeymoon is over.

I ain't in no relationship! Seriously, I've been waiting for someone to pressure my slot for a while. What took you so long to be visibly wary about my cool indifference?

I was a little suspicious of your predecessor anyway, but I was really waiting for you to say something of substance because I wasn't sure you'd even really caught up yet. And because we had two wagons I found to be very very scummy, it seemed like the focus should be on them.

WHen you later claim that I had your slot on a honeymoon or whatever you said, I was merely talking about my tolerance for your slot being cooly indifferent. Bins and DCXVI were already people worth talking about. But I was waiting for you to take some real stances and make some comments and eventually gave up. That's what I meant.

I don't think Thor would have tunneled so long and hard as scum on just the one player, for weeks on end, but I'm not really sure, I think that merits some looking into. I'll try to find something, but any thoughts from you Bert?

This part about Thor and his meta seems so deceptive to me. like a scumhunting facade. What exactly do you hope to achieve by looking at Thor's past games?

I thought I was clear on what I wanted to achieve. My instinct was to townread Thor for something, but then I remembered all the talk about him being hard to read and thought maybe this isn't a town thing. And I was going to go look, had some trouble, and then Thor essentially confirmed for me that it's not a town-or-scum thing for him. So I'm not townreading him for that anymore, it's null.

Can you clarify what you think is deceptive about that? It seems like offers to do more work (which I

have

been doing) are being routinely met with scumreads, while we aren't punishing people for blatantly

lying

being mistaken, or not bothering to read previous days.

And you're the third person to accuse me of not scumhunting, ignoring most of what I've said since replacing in, why hypocritically not doing much yourself.

At least one of Bert/Phil/Droog must be town by simple mathematics, so it bothers me that they all like to accuse people that are scumhunting of being scum for not scumhunting, especially while being useless themselves.

But I don't believe they can all be town.

[Fink]

@Fink Re: 1209: what did DCL do to dispel suspicion? He went on what you call a 'honeymoon.' I haven't dispelled suspicion, and neither did my predecessor. Also - Why would holding off on posting reads until the flip be a means for extra town credit? I don't understand.

Never said he was on a honeymoon, was talking about the period of waiting for you with that comment.

By dispel suspicion I meant that some people were less-than-thrilled with Bins entrance and seemed to be eyeing the slot. DCLXVI came in and posted a very lengthy and not that helpful analysis of the game thus far, and it served to at least impress at least Droog (Why doesn't anything

I

do every impress you Droog? ) and seemingly a few others as I recall. But after that he started to slack off terribly.

Regarding the holding off on reads until after the flip, what I meant was that he was implying a lot more scumhunting and Important Thoughts than it turned out he had ever had. The many things he was holding off on saying sounded like he had some grand scum catch or case or analysis of the wagon, but it turned out all it was was "I don't have any reads, was waiting for the flip" which is bullshit. Any of us could have said that. But he made himself look good short term, which seems like the kind of thing one might do if you wanted to make sure people didn't question the mislynch wagon you started too much and wanted to stay out of the spotlight the next day.

[Fink]

I think the day will be over by saturday because I have empirical proof that there's sufficient people willing to vote for me to get me quicklynched if that's what they want.

I want to lynch you, but I don't want to quicklynch you. We have a new piece of information in Bob/Blair's innocence, and we have a new player to get acquainted with. That's the whole reason I followed Thor's lead (in a way) by pressing Bert instead of continuing to attack you. It's not like I suddenly think you're town, but I have no interest in ending the day quite so fast. Don't worry about a quicklynch from me.

[Fink]

So Thor,

What do you make of the fact that no one has got on Shaddowez with you?

[Fink]

last three lynch wagons:

wgeurts: droog, yyr/fink, thor, blair/bob, shaddowez, philammon
acryon: droog, thor, shaddowez, DCL, philammon
bob: thor, droog, philammon, dys, finx

you, i, thor, and philamonn have been on all three intended lynches
i.e. half of the living town is making all the decisions

do you think scum is inside or outside this group?

The problem is, I think the issue is muddied by all the lurking and replacements. It seems entirely possible that scum could just be sitting back and letting town tear itself apart as long as we aren't on the right track. That's my theory behind scumBert. But yeah, I can see the argument that scum could be driving us too.

As Shaddowez was saying, the fact that the Phil wagon keeps almost happening and failing to go through at the last minute is an additional reason I'm suspicious of him (besides the other stuff). But the problem I'm having with reading into this is that the most active players are making all the decisions really.

Droog, if you, Thor, and I weren't involved in most of the decisions, that would seem weirder to me. We're the most talkative.
Phil, Dys, Shaddowez and Blair/Bob all seem to be around the middle, talking a lot sometimes and annoyingly quiet during other times, and during the times they've been less engaged, they haven't had as much of an impact.

Phil is the outlier in that group (but he wasn't on the Acryon lynch, was he?) so that means he hasn't actually had as much influence as you, Thor, and I. And this last day, it came down to either Phil or Bob, and that doesn't shock me at all. It's more surprising he and Acryon weren't attacking each other at the end there.

So yeah, in short, I don't think you can read anything into that really. What's more interesting are the wagons that didn't happen.

But if you were going back and doing this, why'd you get the Acryon wagon wrong? Or am I misremebering that?

[Fink]

No, you even quoted it in your own post on the topic. But you then claimed Phil was on it in your summary. So the truth was only behind a spoiler. Phil's at L-2 right now, but if I move my vote you could hammer him.

Townpoints for Phil.

VOTE: Droog

[Fink]

you, i, thor, and philamonn have been on all three intended lynches

This wasn't true. And there wasn't another lynch wagon with the same voters as Droog claimed were on the Phil wagon.

My thinking was that Droog thought I'd move my vote to Phil because it was a good excuse, and I'd maybe make a point about Phil being on all the wagons and the same never-lynched thing Shaddowez has been talking about, putting Phil at L-1.

Droog then sheeps my vote because I made a good point or something, lynching Phil. Then the next day he points out his error and that I should have caught it.

I've been pretty aggressive toward Phil (I think everyone can agree with that?), so I think he was assuming I wouldn't think too much about it.

Seems like a good way to get two more mislynches out of town by setting up the same logic about me.

Which of course is only true if Phil is town, hence my other comment when I voted.

Bert: I am

not

suddenly unwilling to vote you, I just want to vote Droog more for the moment.

[Fink]

*Same voters as Droog claimed were on the Acryon wagon

[Fink]

That's a really flimsy reason to move your vote off me.

I love how Bert's "scumhunting" consists of lurking and criticizing people for not finding him scummy enough by the way.

[Fink]

you have to assume that phil and i arent both scum
why is this a valid assumption?

And yet I was voting for Bert. If I was convinced you and Phil were the scumteam, surely I would never have done that.

Misrep me more please.

[Fink]

I think it's been pretty clear that I've been scumreading Droog for a while now. In fact as I said not that long ago, I find Droog, Phil, and Bert all very scummy, but it just isn't possible that they are all scum (because there are only 2 scum).

So one of my scumreads is town. Droog's reactions durning the weeks of me vs. Phil were scummy as hell, and I've already comment about that. Phil isn't suddenly a townread, and Droog was already a scumread. Putting my vote there isn't weird, but I find it weird that you guys are making such a huge deal about it.

Since I know I'm wrong about

someone

, and Phil has given me more cause to doubt his scuminess recently in his responses to things (like my voting Bob). And honestly, Thor is an experienced player and a townread. If I am convinced 3 people are scummy when only 2 can be scum, and he has 2 of those as scumreads, I'm not so arrogant as to be sure he isn't right.

If Droog is scum, I think Phil is town. I'm not convinced Phil is town. But I'm more interested in lynching Droog than Phil for the moment.

Although Bert's doing a credible job convincing me my vote should be back on him after all.

[Fink]

It's rich that multiple times now Droog is comparing his putting Phillamon into a list of people who voted on all the previous wagons when he in fact did not do so as being equivalent to my typo of undersuspicious rather than under suspicion. One of those is a hell of a lot easier to type on accident, undersuspicious isn't even a word and wouldn't have made any sense in context, and Droog has been weirdly fixated on it forever.

But yes, I think his post laid out a pretty good list of times I've already been finding his suspicious.

If it's suddenly scummy to slowly suspect a town read more and more for weeks and have one final suspicious thing pushes you over into voting for them, it's scummy to change your mind suddenly, and it's scummy to never change your mind, why the hell are we even playing this game, let's just vote randomly!

My random vote remains on Droog.

[Fink]

I don't think my case on Droog is brilliant or anything, but these last few days have felt weird coming from the guy who said this:

but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

[Fink]

And regarding the early reads, in context you can't possibly have missed the fact that that post was all about Bob's page 2 reads. I said that looking at only pages 1 and 2 I'd have had a null read on Droog. In my first posts of the game I said that I had a townread on him, but those came much later, mostly from his conduct during Thor v. Blair if I remember correctly.

There is no discrepancy there. There is so little discrepancy there that I find it hard to believe someone can claim I'm contradicting myself in trying to build a legitimate case on me. Even the giant wall post is making up non-issues from whole cloth, which I'd find enormously scummy, but then he doesn't even vote for me. I don't know, but scum has plenty of motive to try to discredit their attacker and drown them out with walls of bullshit, and that manufactured contradiction at least is either scummy, or from half-assed, non-thinking town.

I'm happy to lynch over this.

[Fink]

The typo of yours I didn't like
Was one part of a broad case size=200][/size]

You claim that my typo completely changed your read on Phil
How are those comparable

You've still never adequately examined why you think I was scum in the first place
Or responded to my case on you from all those posts ago

1) You keep bringing up that typo (which was

not

part of any case with anything I thought worth replying to that I haven't already. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because you're equating my finding you stupid for finding me scummy for a typo with me finding you scummy for ADDING PHIL TO A LIST OF PEOPLE AND DOING ANALYSIS BASED ON IT when he didn't belong on that list. I don't think that was a typo. I do think you're working hard to discredit me by comparing it to your own earlier argument which I ridiculed.

2) I never claimed you changed my read on Phil. You made me think you weren't scumbuddies with Phil, and given the two of you, that pushed me into thinking you were the more likely to be scum. I've said it before, I don't understand why you're acting like this is such a shift. It isn't.

3) As you pointed out, you never had a real case on me, and I don't know why YYR asked Cheetory a useless question, but I think it's sufficient reason to tunnel someone all game given all the far far scummier things everyone has done since then. And I'm not going to engage in a wall war and let you get everyone skimming over this more than you already are.

[Fink]

Edit by way of post:

and I don't know why YYR asked Cheetory a useless question, but I

don't

think it's sufficient reason to tunnel someone all game given all the far far scummier things everyone has done since then. And I'm not going to engage in a wall war and let you get everyone skimming over this more than you already are.

[Fink]

You want a short, to the point Droog case, how about this:

The person once so concerned for the readability of the thread, who pointed out how giant wall arguements make people skim and null-read both parties resorts to just such a tactic, along with blatantly making things up to discredit the person suspecting him as soon as he gets a vote.

Almost as if he were more worried about avoiding being lynched at any cost, rather than scumhunting, maintaining thread readability, or finding the truth.

And this isn't just this last thing, a major reason Droog was making me suspect him around the time Bob replaced in was that he kept ignoring what I said (esp. in the heat of the Me v. Phil period) and essentially making me keep repeating things and then pretending like he wasn't sure about details like whether Phil was a viable counterwagon to Acryon. He fed that argument, muddied the waters, and showed no real interest in finding the truth. It's a pattern in Droog's play.

[Fink]

I like how that numbered post doesn't address what I said, doesn't remotely correspond to the numbers I used, and while being a response to my numbered post, ignores the clarifications I made in it.

So it looks like an answer to people skimming to catch up while only serving to ignore what I'm saying and make this whole thing less readable.

It's a flak cannon of bullshit aimed at people skimming to catch up (as we've established too many people are doing this game.)

[Fink]

And between this blatant lie:

5) you've made a much bigger deal over your typo than I ever did

The calling me "sly" again which a) is still a weasel word and b) he knows I'll engage him over,
And the recurring emphasis on his inclusion of PHil in the list of the people on the wagon as a "typo",

this is really the ultimate in trying to bait me and obfuscate all the issues.

Like I don't see how this post could have come from town, rather than as a calculated attempt to make this into an unreadable mess and ignore/dismiss what I'm actually talking about.

And I have answered his question, but that's of course beside the point for Droog.

[Fink]

Last post for a while:

Town wants to find scum and lynch them.
Scum wants to avoid being lynched and get town to mislynch itself.

Which motive better fits Droog's play today?
I know my answer, I'm voting it.

[Fink]

i still like to think phil is town

So why do you think Phil is town again? And when did you develop this read and how has it been effected by his play leading up to and following Bob's lynch?

(I know I'm being a bit vague here, but could you give a long-ish answer to this please? Not like a page, but maybe a paragraph?)

[Fink]

nothing you wrote on him was convincing

This is what's been bugging me. Before we lynched Acryon, you had made some comment about being open to the idea of a Phil lynch, then you seemed to get more set on Acryon, then the next day you were agreeing with Phil that not only you but someone who had said they wouldn't would have both been willing to Phil. But at that point you were really hardcore townreading Phil. And I can't help but wonder how much of your read is tied up in me thinking he's scum.

If you are town, you really need to be careful of this thing you've been doing lately where you're so against me that you townread my scumreads and scumread my townreads.

I'll need to think about your answer some more, but thanks for making it.

How do you feel about Bert? You took your vote off him, but pretend I don't exist for a moment. What do you think of him?

[Fink]

Oh, and I thought I already said this somewhere, but connection is suck tonight, anyway:

I really don't understand why going from eh, probably stupid town to not interested in defending somebody because they've done nothing helpful to town, then asking questions and scumhunting them before deciding to vote based on those questions is at all surprising.

Phil and Droog keep coming back to this like it's some big damning point but it's absolutely normal play. You realize someone isn't really doing anything for town, you start questioning them, it doesn't look like your preferred lynch is possible and they give some answers that make you suspicious and others that imply even if they

are

town (and you're thinking less likely than random that that is true) then they will be totally useless to town and a danger to have around at LYLO. So you vote for your non-top scumread. OH MY GOD, OBVSCUM!!!1!

[Fink]

I'm going to be really annoyed if Thor turns out to be scum. It will have meant that people kept independently catching him, but making terrible cases that none of the rest of us could get behind.

That said, I don't like your case on Thor, Shaddowez. What do you think of Bert? What do you think of Droog?

[Fink]

these two answer each other
went from null to town
is that surprising?

I wasn't calling you scummy for your change in reads on Phil at all. I think you're scum, but that's not part of it.
I was saying that if you are town, I think you're playing terribly because you seemed to be townreading Phil largely because I was going after him. My post was about a larger trend, telling you that if you are town, you need to stop being so single-minded.

I'm not certain of you, or Phil, or Bert. I'm not certain of anything. I don't think any of us should be. As I said, I

know

I'm wrong about one of you (and I can't be sure it's only one). I'm trying to figure out which one, but in a moment of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I pointed out that if you are town, you should not let the tunnel vision blind you.

I'm not surprised you changed your read on Phil. Why would I be? But I am surprised you took that as me throwing you on the scum pile, rather than in the spirit in which I intended it. I think that comes from a scum psychology which is not imagining any doubt from those who have "caught" them that they might actually be town, even when we have doubts.

[Fink]

@Shaddowez

I want to second and elaborate on Droog's question. Do you think you could put Droog and I in ISO, maybe skip forward to the start of Day 4 or so, and read us together in isolation? I want to know what parts of what each of us said you agree or disagree with. Doesn't have to be a big quote wall, but could you just like keep a list of points either of us has said that you agree with or think need more commentary?

I'm leaning scum on him. You make some compelling arguments, but then again he's making some decent ones as well. He still hasn't done anything inherently scummy, but his defense of Phil, along with the fact it seems impossible to actually lynch Phil, give me some pause.

you're (half) committing to a position without committing to the reasoning
which arguments of fink's?
why does my phil defense give you pause?

[Fink]

Some of what you say here isn't the case anymore. Most of what you say was NEVER the case, and you have been misrepresenting or misinterpreting from the start. Please don't.

You're the one misrepresenting here. You keep coming back to my read "changing" from "eh, town with a dumb case" to "viable lynch candidate" over a good period of time.

And you were the one making up facts about my ability to get you lynched on Day 3, you still haven't clarified that even though I've gone into exhaustive detail. You just keep repeating that you don't believe me.

[Fink]

VOTE: Bert

That's L-1

I'm still thinking Droog is scum, but we're going to need a lynch and you've spent the entire long day prod dodging and giving a couple one-liners earlier in the day. I want to talk Droog with Shaddowez tomorrow, but yeah, he's a hell of a lot more useful than you, and he's given us a lot more to look through.

Bert's slot is scummy from DCXVI and slightly from Bins IMO. And Bert is very much giving us nothing to look at so we can't build much of a case. And he's been active elsewhere on site. Scum should not be allowed to get away with this level of turbo lurking.

[Fink]

And frankly, Bert makes the most sense as Droog's scum partner at this point, although I'm hesitant to use that as a tell. But I think it's worth noting anyway.

[Fink]

also couldn't push a nice push or put together anything good if I had a bazillion hours

Yeah, I understand that this is a hell of a game, and not always in the good way, but at least most of us have said enough to look through.

Even on the main action since you joined the game (me vs. Droog), you just dismissed what I was saying as a "Droog tell" without elaborating on that or addressing the point I was trying to make, which is that I find it hard to believe that was a typo, because he added Phil to the list of people on all the wagons when he was analyzing that and asked me about Phil. It's not an accidental word. It

could

be a mistake I guess, but it seems like the kind of thing you fact check before making an analysis based on it (old vote counts) and something hard to screw up seeing as he quoted the correct votecount. I then thought this was a deliberate ploy by scum, as I tried to explain. And I've been having issues with Droog's play since Day 4, and he has issues with me. I think there was stuff to talk about even without reading the previous days, which you spent a lot of time on where we weren't looking at you.

Acronym for my scumreads.

I'm not sure what you mean? You're scumreading me and Thor? Can you at least elaborate

some

. Particularly since I think Thor and I have interacted with almost everyone a good deal.

Stay awesome. and hope your hween was awesome!!
Fink my family got pneumonia shots . u said it doesn't hurt to get em

Yeah, my halloween was pretty good, stayed in with the gf watching scary movies. And those vaccines should be fine, but again, I think it's weird that they're calling them pneumonia vaccines, as if there's only one way to get pneumonia. But at least you're immune to one more organism now!