Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[FA_Q2]

hello everyone.

[FA_Q2]

Vote: Hodor Hodor

I don't like any of the posts that he has made thus far. He's super scummy.

Voting for the first available wagon I see.....

VOTE: Wickedestjr

[FA_Q2]

I just watched the Feb 28th SNL episode this morning...

Vote Riblet

WTF? :lol

Any alts in this game?

What's everyone's experience levels?

burn 209 and FA_Q2...why wait till your 2nd posts to place what I assume is are random votes?

kelbis....do you always proclaim your random votes to be random votes? Seemed a bit odd considering you were the first player to post/vote.

No, sometimes I wait until my third and others in my first. Some games I don't even place an RVS. It is, after all, completely random.

[FA_Q2]

The reason I explained myself in such way is because I am simply a bit TOO honest, experience both IRL and in-game has taught me that lying can get me into trouble. Therefore, I decided to let you know, that way you do not suddenly see me as "lurking" when in actuality I could be simply busy or preoccupied, that was all. I also told everyone my vote was an RVS one because I did not want anyone to think that it was a serious vote.

Too honest, really.

Are you town or scum Mr. Honest...

[FA_Q2]

If I seem a bit too cautious I apologize, I would also like to claim VT, a bit of advice btw, in my other 2 town games, I wound up ultimately claiming VT (in my Newbie game I DID claim 1-shot first, but that was only because I wanted to try to save the town from falling victim to LyLo which failed unfortunately). I was also right both games, the only time I have been scum so far, I claimed town Cop but was unaware how the cop plays so that failed.

Anyway, I am going to:

UNVOTE: Hodor Hodor

and

VOTE: Slandaar

Why would you claim anything at this point?

Are you trying to help scum?

[FA_Q2]

If I seem a bit too cautious I apologize, I would also like to claim VT, a bit of advice btw, in my other 2 town games, I wound up ultimately claiming VT (in my Newbie game I DID claim 1-shot first, but that was only because I wanted to try to save the town from falling victim to LyLo which failed unfortunately). I was also right both games, the only time I have been scum so far, I claimed town Cop but was unaware how the cop plays so that failed.

Anyway, I am going to:

UNVOTE: Hodor Hodor

and

VOTE: Slandaar

Your are completely incorrect on your assumption this helps any town because it ignores the fact that the town does not know you are telling the truth at all (you could still be scum or even a PR) but scum have extra insight. They know if you are town and your claim of VT simply helps them choose a target.

You had no suspicion on you at that time so early in RVS but I can say that now I am deeply suspicious of you. A very strong FoS on you.

UNVOTE: for now. Not really buying the 'newbie' excuse either.

[FA_Q2]

FA_Q2

, in your experience, have you ever seen anyone claim prematurely like this?

kelbris

, why did you vote for Slandaar?

I have seen a LOT of people claim prematurely but never this fast and never in this manner. Page 3 id just asinine. Nor do I remember anyone ever claiming while still in RVS.

[FA_Q2]

We should like, lynch Hodor Hodor instead.

because....

[FA_Q2]

It would be a fascinating study to run, you know -- create ten new accounts, have them claim vanilla townie in their first three posts regardless of role, and see how long they survive based solely on the newbie goodwill.

I think a better 'experiment' would be to try and post actual relevant information and more than 2 posts by page 5.

This post reads like filler to not trip the prod counter and look like you are participating while actually avoiding it.

VOTE: massive

[FA_Q2]

@cheeto

I find it interesting that you voted sladaar for the derp post and then, after discovering that he was simply imitating, you do not change your vote or even really engage the originator of the post? Why?

[FA_Q2]

After reading back through thoes relevant posts, I started thinking that he was trying to see exactly HOW other players would react to such a post, whilst mine came off as newbie explaining everything, a quick look at Slandaar's profile revealed that he has been around for 3 years more then me, reaffirming my opinion that his post was to gauge other player's reactions.

Yours did NOT come off as a "newbie explaining everything," and the more often you say it, the more often I think it isn't true.

massive...are you not doing anything on purpose? Still thinking things over?

I'm a late bloomer.

I think a better 'experiment' would be to try and post actual relevant information and more than 2 posts by page 5.

This post reads like filler to not trip the prod counter and look like you are participating while actually avoiding it.

Fascinating. At this point in the game, you have nine posts. (Ten comes after this one.) How many of them do you think are actual scumhunting (I count zero, mostly talking about RVS and then about the quickclaim) and how many do you think are filler trying to LOOK busy but not actually BEING busy?

Is that the best you can do? An OMGUS?

Not impressed.

[FA_Q2]

I don't really wish to post life story but I am not well currently so will post properly when I can.

VOTE: Riblet

Naked vote is, well... naked.

How about explaining why riblet is scum?

[FA_Q2]

FA_Q2 - Post 114 is my first note on you. And it's because I think your vote is premature and opportunistic. While I agree with everything you said in principal, why not just call him out as Fitz did and judge his response?

Why not place my vote there?

Votes get answers - posts are ignored far more often than votes. The only time I would withhold voting for him would be if I had a better scum read OR the vote would have larger ramifications than the read warranted (like placing someone at L-1/2 and my case/suspicion was rather weak.

I am the only one voting massive at this time - no reason not to put my vote there with my suspicions.

[FA_Q2]

It is to me because apparently you were well enough to vote an OMGUS vote. If you weren't well you should not have posted at all, and yes I have seen scum lie about being busy and even being sick to avoid providing content so I don't really believe you. Call me an asshole if you want

Really.

If I were to lie to not post anything I would just have gone VLA for a bit. Besides, I posted content in my post so I wasn't avoiding posting content as you have said; A vote with nothing else is content so you have now contradicted your own beliefs.

Good Day Scumbag.

No, a vote with nothing else is not content. it is a naked vote and inherently anti town.

Naked votes do almost nothing.

[FA_Q2]

Man there are a LOT of replacements on this site...

[FA_Q2]

Greetings all!
I've read up and should have a decent idea what's going on here now.

Cheeto, I can be your hero!

I really dislike that Viking parked his vote on a spot which was replacing out. That never sits well with me tbh.
In fact, VOTE: Viking
Please tell me why this was a good vote.
I see subbing as alignment neutral. What makes this spot scummy, and how do you feel about the replacement (Saul) thus far?

Kelbris is also sitting funny with me. The claim was weird. I get the timezone stuff, but a lot of his stuff seems weird. Willing to give him D1, but after that, no promises. FoS on that spot.

I'll see about addressing others tomorrow, but I'm tired atm.

Also, I tend to be mostly V/la on weekends, so that it doesn't seem scummy and stuff if I'm not responding ;P

Those were essentially the same damn claims.....

[FA_Q2]

Just read page 6.

I don't really wish to post life story but I am not well currently so will post properly when I can.

VOTE: Riblet

Naked vote is, well... naked.

How about explaining why riblet is scum?

There were a few naked votes cast prior to this one. Why is it that you only comment on the one cast by Slandaar, the top lynch candidate?

Top lynch candidate?

There really is no top lynch candidate at that time - no one is getting lynched that quickly on day one BUT I chose to point this particular vote out at that time because it was not in the RVS stage (where naked votes are pretty normal) and it was overtly naked without cause. I do not like votes like that - they are inherently anti-town.

[FA_Q2]

After intensive rereadong and ISOing, I have come to the conclusion thst their is mafia in this game.

....

That's insightful.

VOTE: randomidget

and I am going to give just as much reasoning as he has given this game.

[FA_Q2]

I was hoping that my pred was a SNL reference, I am not disappointed. Reading soon. Anything I should know off the bat?

I would like your take on the interaction with your predecessor and slandar.

[FA_Q2]

There is none. For some reason, I think he seems to believe that Oka Poka replaced Riblet, not Hodor. See this post.

So a massive scum flip makes Oka an IC? Sweet.

VOTE: massive

?

I don't see what you are getting at here?

[FA_Q2]

Sorry I have not been here – been rather busy lately.

Playing catch up, here is my current reads.
Massive – null
havingfitz – null – I need to read his ISO more in depth. Don’t have the time atm.
Wickedestjr – leaning town.
Aristophanes – scum. I read cheeto as rather scummy in the beginning. I did not buy his whole brain fart defense when he tried to run slandarr into the ground. It looked like jumping on the first available opportunity to me and then trying to find an out when it failed to have any wings. Aristo has not done much to really change that read. Post 275 is really bad. It essentially equates to ‘someone play day one for me’ and reads as a complete cop out to avoid actual participation.
vikingfan – town
OkaPoka - null
MonkeyMan576 – scum. I don’t see anything in any of his posts that indicates he is the slightest bit interested in finding scum. Some blanket statements against Oka but no real case anywhere. The slot was null before he replaced in so no help for him there either.
kelbris - null
Slandaar - null
Saul Goode – Town
randomidget – scummy. Has not added anything to the game whatsoever. Most of his posts look to me like they are trying to do something without actually doing anything.
Formerfish – null.

[FA_Q2]

That's a pretty dumb statement FA. My cases aren't any less intricate than yours.

What cases.

dumb to call you scummy - what a defense.

YOu have more null reads than town and scum reads. Not a good look.

Why? Likely because I called you out as being scummy.

[FA_Q2]

I don't know.

Fishie seems the best lynch today.

I seen your case on riblet but I don't see the same carry over with fish. Is this based solely on the slot or do you also think there are scummy things that fish has done as well?

PEdit - ninjad

[FA_Q2]

That's a pretty dumb statement FA. My cases aren't any less intricate than yours.

What cases.

The difference is, I said in my writeup that my reads were general. You're implying that you know who every scum player is, when more than half of your reads are null.

Th real difference is that I make assertions based on what I see whereas you make statements that you can back out of. IOW, you post like scum trying to make sure that you don't take extra heat.

[FA_Q2]

As a heads up I am going to be V/LA from Monday till Wednesday or Thursday. Leaving country and will be traveling those days. I will try and check in by phone but phone posting is a pain in the ass and I have no idea how much access I will have to wifi to respond during that time as well.

[FA_Q2]

@fitz im an easy player to attack but a hard player to be lynched. I don't know about as scum as I've only had one scum game and that was multiball.

So you are easy to attack but hard to lynch. That makes no f'ing sense. And I assume you are the same "easy to attack but hard to lynch" player both as town and scum....i.e. it doesn't matter to me. I think your play is suspect (=scummy).

I meant scumreading you.

I was voting you before you voiced any suspicions (OMGUS) towards me. So what was your objective when you dropped the comment that I am going after "easy" players ....one of which whom I'm voting? ??????????????????????

I am derping this game so hard. Also I object to the contraction idgit.

Derp sounds like a good excuse for bad or scummy play. Are either of those good for town?

As for the contraction.....are you a rando midget or a random idget?

Easy to attack and hard to lynch tend to be scummy anyway - there are players that naturally do not want to vote for scum but are more than happy to vote for easily attackable town members. That and the consistent OMGUS...

[FA_Q2]

@mod - I am back

Read page 16.

vikingfan – town

Explain this please.

He has not done anything that looks particularlty scummy so far and his play is not all that different from the last game I played with him where he was lynched and he was town.

maybe I am giving him to much leeway because of how bad we were wrong in the last game I played with him but I get an overall town. You seem to think that he is scum, care to summerize why? Is there something that I missed?

[FA_Q2]

Slandaar...I'm doing this over my phone so I might be missing something. What about the link you provided to a recent Fish game indicates he is scum in this game?

His other game is much stronger.

His replace in here was very weak as evidenced by the complete lack of follow up on anything. His replace in there had much more purpose about it.

I dont see how that is a scum tell at all.

Personally, I invest a LOT more work into my scum game because you have to watch everything you say and build solid reads without contradicting yourself or getting one of your teamates lynched. That takes far more work than town play IMHO. A replace in that is weaker than a previous game is a complete null for me - more likely to be because of time constraints or simple lazyness more than an actual alignment indicator. That is unless there is a solid history of replacing in strong as town and weak as scum and that takes more games than one to establish.

[FA_Q2]

im really frustrated because I think massive is town.

But he has tunnel vision on me and there is no way I'm going to live even if im a good role.

? Because ONE player tunneled you?

That is shit reasoning and you know it. There is no reason to simply give up because one player thinks you are scum. I dont see how you last in any game then - the one single constant across 100 percent of all mafia games I have ever played is that you will be scum read for any random reason whatsoever every single game.

So what if massive is tunniling on you - who cares. You will likely dies before the end of the game as well (that is also average in mafia games) and again, who cares. Give us something to work with in the mean time.

[FA_Q2]

Not much has happened in the last 4 pages to change any of my reads. Aristo still seems damn scumy to me but does not seem to be an option for today's lynch unless something changes witht the current wagons. I would really prefer a Monkey or Random lynch - I think they are both awfully scummy players. Monkey even moreso but there does not seem to be any steam there as well. I could compramise on the killbris wagon because of:

This lynch also has two key benefits: a.) He has claimed VT already. Lynching kelbris removes the opportunity for other roles to be outed. There's a good chance he's scum, but, even if he isn't, the loss is small because he's not a power role. b.) His lynch could be very informative. He has made a lot of posts and it feels like he has been one of the major focuses of this game. One of the primary goals of day 1 is to get information and I think his lynch gets it, regardless of the flip.

That is solid reasoning right there and I can go witht that to avoid a no lynch.

[FA_Q2]

well, we have only one day left and Oka is at L-2 and random is at L-4 if I am not mistaken. Those are the top 2 wagons.

We are really fractured right now and we are way to close to the deadline for this to be the case.

[FA_Q2]

How about monkey dies today and we can talk about taking out kilbris tomarrow?

[FA_Q2]

VOTE: MonkeyMan576
I really think this is the likliest place to find scum thus far.

[FA_Q2]

Some day I'm going to end up referring back to this game as "The One Where Kelbris Tried To Squeeze Every Scum Tell Into One Game."

Massive, so you are thinking that Monkey was a cc to Oka?

Must be, right? I mean clearly the people who started the Monkey wagon didn't want to vote for Oka:

-- FA, who would rather coach Oka in 477; who is pretty much just sheeping Wickedest in 479 and throughout the rest of the Monkey wagon (despite being the "first" on the wagon, he is clearly hopping on Wickedest's reasons for voting Monkey)
-- Wickedest, who thinks he has spotted a scum slip
-- Oka, who is doing so for self-preservation reasons

But it also comes across as a Kelbris counterwagon. Both FA (479) and Wickedest (437, 486) say they're OK with a Kelbris lynch. Kelbris already has votes at this time. Why this sudden strong need to build a new wagon? There's plenty of scum that we need multiple correct lynches. I still haven't gotten a good answer about why this wagon even needed to start up, and I still don't know how it all fits together. (Obviously they aren't ALL scum together.)

Do you think Oka was bussing Kelbris?

Ordinarily I wouldn't say yes to this but dang, look who's voting for each other without processing any of the information from Monkey's lynch or Slandaar's kill?

I went to a new wagon because I thought monkey was the scummiest player at that time and the killbris wagon was not going anywhere. We had been talking about lynching killbris the entirety of day one and it simply was not happening. I could have went there but I doubt it would have ended in a lynch at all.

I gave you a good answer when I went there the first time - I was voting where I thought scum and we had enough time to change over if no one was interested.

Further, how was I 'hopping on' Jester's reasons when he hadn't even posted it yet? My post went in before his.

[FA_Q2]

The two people Slandaar was tunneling

Riblet/Formerfish or Cheetory/Aristophanes

we should choose a lynch from those two tbqh.

Why?

We know that he was a townie but he had no more information than any other townie. He did not have a chance to get a cop read on anyone before being killed.

[FA_Q2]

Prod acknowledgement. Have not had a lot of time lately. I will post in about 12 hours after I get off work. Have to get into work now and I don't have the time to read up.

[FA_Q2]

will me flipping town help you guys find scum at all?

No but I have my doubts that you will flip town at all. Your wagon has been beat to death though so no more on that other than I agree with the sentament that you have been verry scummy this day.

[FA_Q2]

O M G....where is everyone?

The game has stalled. Since I last posted (which was long enough for a prod) almost nothing has happened worth mentioning.

Very sad indeed.

[FA_Q2]

VOTE: Randomidget

I could also entertain discussion on FA_Q2 and vikingfan maybe. I'll follow up in the morning.

Why random in particular?

[FA_Q2]

Why random in particular?

Why random indeed? Do you see any town in his play? Even let's say you just focus on today ... do his votes look particularly towny to you? Does his game interaction seem towny? He says

There is scum in the people trying to influence people on the nk.

but makes no effort to actually follow up on this or use it as a basis for voting, instead moving from Oka to an OMGUS vote and then back.

Nope, no town at all. I don’t see anything in his play because he has not been playing. Random is indistinguishable from an open spot that has not bothered to post all game.

I felt almost the same thing with monkey as well and that turned out to be incorrect. The only real difference is that it looked like monkey was trying to look like playing without actually participating. Random is not even bothering.

[FA_Q2]

O M G....where is everyone?

I'm checking in from time to time. I'll drop a read or a question or some knowledge when I see something worth commenting on. I'm finding it easier to get reads based on how you interact with each other rather than how you all interact with me since I have no meta knowledge and am at a slight disadvantage right now.

I also have no meta with anyone here.

I feel like this is part of the problem. Everyone is waiting and watching for everyone else to so something so nothing happens.

Why Idget btw, everyone?
Are we giving up on Oka? Have we just gotten bored or did I miss something where he was tow and Idget was scum?
Aalre we juat trying to wagon everyone systematically in a rotation in order to get them to respond, then nonchalantly moving to the next person?
How does this help up?

I wouldn't say giving up but it is not a good idea to lynch right out the gate. We have time.

[FA_Q2]

Oka is a content void.
Oka has bad scumhunting based on nothing. Has done this on 3 people (Kelbris, Monkey, and Fish)
Oka really wants to look active/helpful but doesn't.

OK, let's look at these three points.

1. Other players are participating just as little, if not less so. What specifically makes it worse that Oka is doing it?
2. There are plenty of players who did bad scumhunting with regards to Kelbris, and I think everyone had their moment with Riblet (who Formerfish replaced). Even the Monkey stuff isn't that horrible (see [http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6710202]392[/url]) and he's hardly the worst vote on the end-day bandwagon.
3. This is probably contradictory to Point 1. Is he posting no content, or content meant to look helpful?

Even in your spoilered section, you brush over the discussion with Monkey. Oka isn't wrong in asking why FA gets a pass and random gets a townread, but he gets a scumread for essentially the same behavior.

I guess here's the real question: If I put up your three points against FA or Randomidget, wouldn't they be just as legitimate?

Alright, I just looked back at the two and I'll give you that Random is as bad, if not worse, than Oka. Perhaps I was a little gung-ho on this one.
FA seems like he's trying to be helpful a little more than these two though.

On point 3, I think they compliment each other. Lack of content while appearing busy with long-ass quotes while not saying much.

I would disagree with the comparison between random and Oka being similar. Random has absolutely zero contribution at all. There is nothing there and he does not seem to give 2 shits about trying to play as town. Oka on the other hand looks like he is trying to skate through and look like he is contributing while actually giving us nothing. That gives me a slight scum read on Oka. The problem is the lack of other candidates. Who has really done anything scummy besides Oka? The speed of the counter wagon is another indication that Oka might very well be scum.

[FA_Q2]

How about the fact that he said case tomarrow...

It is hard to post anything as there is noting to comment on. Something needs to get this game going and I dont know how.

[FA_Q2]

the attempt at math here makes me itch.

This is math too -

there's at least one more scum on Monkey's wagon

Also THIS:

It is a complete toss up for me between the two of them.

also makes me itch. Given that it's a toss-up between the two, why vote for the one who ISN'T at L-2?

My vote had been on Oka prior to unvoting when he reached L-1 too quickly IMO. That was a ~week ago....my opinion of him and random hasn't changed or shifted elsewhere. They are still my top two suspects atm. Oka's my preference atm. Barely.

He seems to be everyone’s preference.

Not much else seems to be going on and we are making zero headway past Oka so far this day. I am willing to hammer in 24 hours if there are no objections. We have time left but we are not using it effectively at all and Oka would give us some much needed info.

intent to hammer Oka

[FA_Q2]

Nope, that was my error. I thought that Oka was at L-1 not random. Looking back, he is not even close and random is at L-1. Oka only has 2 votes for him. Mine makes 3.
VOTE: oka

He is still at L-3.

[FA_Q2]

I don’t think random is going to give us any info at all and is a sub par lynch compared to Oka.

[FA_Q2]

I don’t think random is going to give us any info at all and is a sub par lynch compared to Oka.

The problem is, I don't want random anywhere near lylo. I agree oka is probably the most informative lynch, but if oka is town, I think he could be very helpful in endgame. I can't see random being that, whether he's town or not.

This is just silly.

What on this earth makes you think that Oka would suddenly change and start participating late in the game. His play is not suddenly going to get better on account of the day changing. Both are useless, Oka just has more interaction.

[FA_Q2]

Explain why you think Oka is a policy lynch. So far, everyone on his wagon has given explicit reasoning as to why he is a good candidate.

Random is a CLEAR policy lynch IMHO. He is being voted because he is useless.

This post reeks of contradiction as well. Random is the best lynch because…. Nothing and yet we should not lynch Oka because that is a policy lynch (which I think he is clearly not)???

I will never buy the too scummy to be scum defense either.

[FA_Q2]

I think that Oka is town, from reading his posts whilst not being good at scumhunting and looking rather scummy, I personally think scum wouldn't be as careless than giving themselves up on a platter to eat from. So on that basis, I think that he isn't scum.

I don't like Policy lynches and it's striking me like that's what he is. However I think it's going to cause a few problems come later in the game, where we are going to feel that his lynch is going to be a case of best case scenario, but I'm hoping that once it does come to that stage, if he is town, to give us a stronger town reading than he is atm, and also give us some strong reads as to why we should look at others and not him. But right now, from what I have read, my strongest suggestion for a lynch, would be randomidget.

Hmmmm.....

My last post was supposed to include this quote. I have no idea where it went.

[FA_Q2]

And there we have it.

Looks like random is going to be gone. Are you going to at least wait for a claim? Random has been gone for a while now.

@mod: is it time for a prod on him?

[FA_Q2]

<crickets>

1. Considering there was only 1 kill N1...this is would be a good fakeclaim...especially in hopes of outing a vig.
2. Why did you not vig N1?
3. If truthful (and not the D2 lynch)...pretty much dead N2 barring a protective role.
4. I'm not bothered keeping you around past D2.
5. All aboard the Oka train!

Really because I think it is a terrible scum claim if he is scum.

Will one person here, anyone, claim that they actually trust random with the vig shot? Anyone?

A non-player that has not put any effort into the game is not going to be saved by claiming that he can vig shot. At least I don’t see such happening.

[FA_Q2]

Kop replaced Kelbris. That sentence right there is enough to make you pause.

Rando is going to shoot. We are not going to try to handcuff him because that idea is fucking stupid.

And then what do you propose we do with him? Do you want to take him to endgame? Scum aren't going to kill him, even as a confirmed townie.

Sure, if he is town.

That should be rather clear this night - if there are 2 kills then the 1 shot vig is going to be truthful. If only 1 then it is might be a lie. There are caveats of course; doc and such, but we can hash that out later.

Scum cannot force this to make him look town because they do not have the option of killing a second player (at least I have not seen that before in anything that is not a multiball setup and that is an unlikely scenario at this point). So…. There is nothing lost if he sticks around after being confirmed town. We can lynch him if there is a question as to what he is.

[FA_Q2]

VOTE: Oka

Really Kop.

This is scum.

[FA_Q2]

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

And how exactly would scum manipulate the pr's shot? With a redirector? Well, redirectors aren't normal. With a role blocker? Well, that's not really a problem here either. If scum role blocked random's shot, then we don't have to worry about a mis-kill. If scum let random shoot, thinking he would hit town, then the worst case scenario is that a scummy player dies and we can lynch somebody else instead - which isn't too terrible considering we lost our cop already.

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it.

I think, if he's a one shot vigilante, then he would shoot who we told him to, with the condition that he gets lynched otherwise. He's useless, but not rebellious.

And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

If there's no shot, then you don't have to worry about a mis-kill... The lack of a kill doesn't seem like a problem worth discussing right now- it sounds like tomorrow's business.

No, it is terrible for him to reveal the target because it directly allows them to manipulate the power.

They can choose whether or not to roll block it based on the target or whether or not to kill him based on his target. Essentially it would give the scum team the information they need to decide if role blocking is something they should do or are they going to get another dead townie out of it.

It is unlikely that he will end up taking out a scum – declaring it beforehand is almost like protecting scum from his ability.

[FA_Q2]

there are so many reasons why we shouldn't decide the kill.

but mainly that allows scum to manipulate the very own pr's shot we have in place. and im having none of that.

And how exactly would scum manipulate the pr's shot? With a redirector? Well, redirectors aren't normal. With a role blocker? Well, that's not really a problem here either. If scum role blocked random's shot, then we don't have to worry about a mis-kill. If scum let random shoot, thinking he would hit town, then the worst case scenario is that a scummy player dies and we can lynch somebody else instead - which isn't too terrible considering we lost our cop already.

Also, if random is a one shot vig and we kept him alive and allowed him to shoot whoever he wanted, then he could accidentally shoot another town power role. If we tell him who to shoot, that is no longer an issue.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it.

I think, if he's a one shot vigilante, then he would shoot who we told him to, with the condition that he gets lynched otherwise. He's useless, but not rebellious.

And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

If there's no shot, then you don't have to worry about a mis-kill... The lack of a kill doesn't seem like a problem worth discussing right now- it sounds like tomorrow's business.

No, it is terrible for him to reveal the target because it directly allows them to manipulate the power.

They can choose whether or not to roll block it based on the target or whether or not to kill him based on his target. Essentially it would give the scum team the information they need to decide if role blocking is something they should do or are they going to get another dead townie out of it.

It is unlikely that he will end up taking out a scum – declaring it beforehand is almost like protecting scum from his ability.

How high in confidence do you know that there is a role blocker in this particular game?

I can’t say anything in ‘high confidence’ about the setup and I was quite clear about it in my statements. It is simply likely that they do have such a role as it is an often used scum role. That is not the only possibility for allowing them control over the role though.

[FA_Q2]

Forgot to post it. I only really voted oka because it seemed like the one way of advancing the game.

This is bad – very bad. I really do not trust a damn thing you say. You come up with the worst excuses for things.

[FA_Q2]

Running out of time - one day left. We need to coalesce around a lynch candidate. Almost everyone seems to agree that Oka is a good lynch but it seems impossible to actually lynch him. Does anyone want to give a case for town Oka?

[FA_Q2]

roll block makes the most sense would random be told if his roll was blocked and he retained his shot or does he loose his shot?

I thought you would lose your shot if it is role blocked.

[FA_Q2]

Also,

Random why did you target Viking?

[FA_Q2]

PS...

FA is overdue a prod mod.

I am here though there is not a whole lot to say at this point - the entire thread is now revolving around you pissing at random without much of a case past you don't want him around. I cant figure out if this is scum trying to frame random or not. At this point I am not very confident in the random wagon.

[FA_Q2]

FA, do you read Rando as town?

I read rando as an enigma - I don't see anything that really lets us know that what his alignment is.

What I find particularly annoying is fitz reliance on this idea that we should lynch rando because we 'don't want her around in LYLO.' That is an argument that ignores rando's actual allignment. There is noting scummier than pushing a lynch of a player without regard to alignment. If he was openly advocating for a PL that would be a little different. Essentially, I see rando as being pushed as a PL by fitz while fits is trying to avoid actually saying what he is doing.

VOTE: fitz

[FA_Q2]

At viking - how confident in a rando scum are you?

[FA_Q2]

Fitz is just trying to force town into lynching random. It is scummy to be demanding a lynch just so that random does not end up in lylo (without consideration as to weather or not he is actually town) and then to speculate that he is a SK because....

Well because fitz wants him lynched. The longer the day goes on the more I am convinced that my vote is in the right place.

[FA_Q2]

The longer the day goes on the more I am convinced that my vote is in the right place.

That's funny, because the more often you post, the more I see you defending Randomidget and having no case whatsoever on Fitz.

Then vote me for it. You will be disappointed by the result if you manage to lynch me though.

[FA_Q2]

FA_Q2, what do you think of vikingfan?

I don't like the viking wagon because of something that I think I seen earlier with his posts. Not something that I will get into right now though.

[FA_Q2]

FA:

Is it correct to say your entire case on havingfitz is because he's pushing to lynch Randomidget?

Yes and no.

My problem is not that he is pushing rando – that is what a townie needs to do, push who they think are scum. My issue with fits is that he pushes rando not because he thinks he is scum but because ‘we don’t want him in lylo.’ And he pushes very hard for what I would normally consider a PL.

I don’t see the townie motivation in his posts.

[FA_Q2]

So you're saying either:

(a) Randomidget is lying about his shot and is scum, or
(b) scum have a roleblocker that blocked Randomidget

Doesn't (b) point to scum-Kop?

If the scum thought he was going to shoot kop then yes it does.

[FA_Q2]

?

You are at L-1. It is time to claim. Why did you not claim in the above?

[FA_Q2]

I will be V/LA for the next 2 days. Need to catch an MRT to Kuwait and I do not know how reliable the internet is over there. Will check in if I can

[FA_Q2]

Back. Sorry I am a bit late - it took longer than I thought.

I have resisted getting on vikings wagon because I was sure that he was crumbing a PR earlier. I don't like his claim at all and it makes more sense to me now why he was not killed for what I thought was an obvious crumb.

VOTE: viking

MRT?

Stands for maintenance recovery team

[FA_Q2]

He mentioned 'tracking' people that were not posting and the reference seemed out of place and matched his meta for the last time I played with him (where he claimed cop, was lynched anyway and was telling the truth)

I don’t like the VT claim because I was thinking that he was trying to crumb tracker. Possible that he set this up then and forgot to follow up when he received some pressure. The case around him others have presented is a decent case and without him being a PR I don’t see a good reason not to lynch him.

[FA_Q2]

So begrudgingly taking random idgit out of the equation (for now).....I'm going to look at the other players in the game. Not interested in wicked or Formerfish atm so I'll start with today's current leading lynch candidate; vikingfan.

#36 - rvs fluff

#69 - meh

#92 - encourages Flames (aka Saul/EPM) to vote Hodor (aka Oka) and criticizes Kelbris (aka Kop) early claim. Mentions "policy advantage"...wth is that?

#118 - gives his read on all players. Mostly nulls or towns with a vote on Flames. Can accept lack of scum reads since it's early in game.

#122 - defends his Flame vote (Flames is replacing out) to Riblet (aka FF)

#174/175 - defends his Flames vote to wicked. Says it was just to make a statement. Viking IS the only vote on Flames so that COULD be the case. Not sure it is scummy or "awful."

#201 - defends Flames vote to Aristo...unvotes Flames. Promises read through. meh

#241 - defends Flames vote to Wicked..laments replacements (again). Promises read through.....

#242 - apparently has completed his read through and determined everyone is null. Except random who he then votes. Obviously not bothered by the random idgit vote but surprised everyone else is null. :/

#258 - trying to determine reasoning behind massive's vote on Oka. ok

#375 - RL distractions...more content to follow. meh

#376 - a post to wicked offering more explanation of the Flames vote (zzzzzzz)

#438 - Large post. Had to read it a few times. I think he is saying his lynch list is kelbris, Aristo and random (in no particular order). Not a terrible post. Decent for him I suppose.

#458 - discusses Slandaar's push on Fish. Puts FOS on Aristo. Getting involved and taking sides. good

#459 - a correction to part of his 458 post. meh

#471 - reprimands Oka for being a quitter. Mentions thought of voting kelbris (Kop) for policy related reasons? and opts not to put Oka at L-1 to extend D1. so so

#480 - Talks policy of kelbris lynch and how kelbris and Oka seem to be the options. Though I think random and Aristo are his preferences.

#495-497 - Jumps to the Monkey wagon and states L-2. I assume Monkey support comes from wicked's case? ok

#514/515 - makes a few twilight posts to wicked regarding my D1 hammer. meh

#526 - Starts D2 with affirmation of random suspicions (yay!). Minimizes role in Monkey lynch...."had to do it" (guilty conscience?)

#537 - Pushing the underposters a bit. Still suspects random.....meh

#543 - Exchange with wicked. Not sure if there are suspicion towards wicked or not.

#559 - Defends his gameplay to massive. States he has been hunting people (i.e. random and others). Objects to massive providing townreads. meh

#597 - v/la

#635 - Votes random...makes comment to Saul and wrt to me but not sure of the context at the moment. meh

#639 - clarifies on a question from Oka.

#662 - Large response to wicked. Seems to be casting a bit of suspicion wicked's way without explicitly stating so.

@viking....what is your read on wicked at this point in the game?

Answered in later post....simon says....town.

#665 - answers to Saul wrt some VCA questions. good

#682 - non game comment to Fish. ok

#685 - 744 - Numerous posts basically supporting a random lynch over and Oka one. Supporting what he believes in...good.

#752 - Questions Fish on whether letting random pick his own target or not makes sense. hmmm....

#771/772 - Pushing that random is not to be trusted (agreed) and obtw..Saul due prod.

#783 - asks mod about a replacement for random....lol....he really wants random gone one way or another. I prefer the vote over the replacement.

#784 - pointing out underposters to mod. ok....trying to keep activity up. good thing.

#791 - moto post. meh

#804 - explains to wicked how he isn't for the let random shoot plan. Though I do not recall seeing him push any targets.

#807 - Asks mod for an extension. I see this as pro-town.

#812 - snaps at random. meh

#814 - makes what looks to be a good observation towards random regarding random's change of stance on Oka.

#822 - Discussing random's shot options with Fish. meh

#843 - More going after random. OK

#852 - prodding random wrt what his plans are with the ~vig shot.

#858 - says wicked would the the best candidate (for what?) and gives me credit for the random vig shot plan. Which I believe he meant for someone else.

#859 - tries to slow things down while EPM catches up. good thing

#866/867/869 - trying to confirm what random intends to do. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing given random's flakiness.

#882 - explains his views on random "plan".....ok

D3

#897 - opines on N2 actions and lack of 2nd kill. ~ok

#908 - I read this a few times and it made my head hurt. Think suspicion was being cast towards Kob. meh

#922 - Gets on Kob's case a bit. OK

#923 - Still in the random is scum camp (ok by me)

#924 - Long point by point defense of random's vote on him. ok

#933 - decent random point brought to massive's attention.

#935 - random speculation with massive.

#943 - poking random to answer questions (good)

#954 -Seems to waffle a bit on random....(not sure if he's scummy or not?) bleh Some VCA (fair enough/deflection?)

#956 - Goes off I think on random for not answering questions. ok

#983 - prod dodge

#1004 - random IS scummy. Votes random. Gives reads. Claims VT. Don't care for waffle on random. reads and claim ok.

#1007 - Question to FA

#1008 - Question to random

#1034 - Long defense to massive suspicions

#1035 - Post to FA saying he had not bread-crumbed anything.

#1039 - more defense to massive suspicions. ok

Done. whew. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (j/k)

OK...so I still like a random lynch but I'm not sure the crowd will wait around long enough for me to provide summarized case on him. Which I could probably have by Wednesday afternoon.

WRT viking...I thought he had played a better game but his ISO did seem a bit underwhelming. Not sure how much original thought there is and a lot of time spent on the defense for his opinions regarding random's potential vig shot N2. Not sure he did anything really damning in my eyes....and I do see some pro-town effort from him. The worst thing I saw whas him saying he wasn't sure random was scummy after being on him much of the time prior and then shortly after...reiterating he felt he was scummy. If it was early in the game that might be enough on it's own to warrant a vote from me but taken as a whole...not sure. I'm going to refine my case on random and if someone pulls the plug on viking, so be it. Probabaly be better that way from a VCA perspective anyway since I'm not sold on his wagon.

More later.

This is somewhat confusing to me.

The one thing I think is fairly solid is that viking and rando are not on a scum team together - the interaction makes that highly unlikely in my eyes particularly with where the scum team is at.

I would think that you would be more against vikings lynch if you are sure that rando is scum.

[FA_Q2]

Point taken.

That does make sense.

[FA_Q2]

Vote Count 3.4

vikingfan(4): Kop, randomidget, wickedestjr, FA_Q2
Not voting: Aristophanes, vikingfan, Formerfish, havingfitz, massive
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

I'm also a little concerned that NO counterwagon has popped up at all. No one is even SUGGESTING lynching anyone but viking.

That really is not true.

Random was a counter for awhile and there have been some other votes. I was scum reading Fitz for awhile for one. None of them really gained any steam though. It is interesting though because I would have expected scum to push a lot harder on random than it seem they are doing if viking really was scum.

[FA_Q2]

What is the new deadline?

There does not seem to be any action here at all and we might well miss it at this rate.

[FA_Q2]

Right on the FA bandwagon, I see.

Based on?

OK...so I still like a random lynch but I'm not sure the crowd will wait around long enough for me to provide summarized case on him. Which I could probably have by Wednesday afternoon.

WRT viking...I thought he had played a better game but his ISO did seem a bit underwhelming. Not sure how much original thought there is and a lot of time spent on the defense for his opinions regarding random's potential vig shot N2. Not sure he did anything really damning in my eyes....and I do see some pro-town effort from him. The worst thing I saw whas him saying he wasn't sure random was scummy after being on him much of the time prior and then shortly after...reiterating he felt he was scummy. If it was early in the game that might be enough on it's own to warrant a vote from me but taken as a whole...not sure. I'm going to refine my case on random and if someone pulls the plug on viking, so be it. Probabaly be better that way from a VCA perspective anyway since I'm not sold on his wagon.

More later.

I still think Fitz is scum. His case against radom - now very likely to be town - was contrived as hell as I stated yesterday and I really don't like him taking a soft stance on viking while still pushing rando - as though he knew that viking would flip scum and didn't want to be associated with a town read on him. He avoided the viking wagon like the plague and yet did not think he was town. Built an entire case around that was filled with garbage.

VOTE: fitz

[FA_Q2]

Let's see if I can get something started. VOTE: vote kop since massive and aristo have already indicated interest in going after him. and 2 days is nothing, wicked got monkey lynched in less time. though like i said, there really shouldn't be a deadline without a player in kop's slot, unless he's the one we pick to lynch. There's no question his slot has been scummy across 2 different players.

I don't like this either - Viking knew he was going to be lynched at this point. It was obvious that he would not be getting a wagon on KOP to take his place.

I just don't know if i am going to read too much WIFOM with this post.

[FA_Q2]

Haven't done my reread yet but want to get a few comments/responses in to the D3 postings:

@wicked...

the no kill does help us because instead of needing 4 votes to get a mislynch...scum now need 5. Same as yesterday. I do not see how they have benefited from not killing. Assuming it was a conscious decision.

Can you restate why you think Kop and Aristo are town?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Aristo...

how is my opening post extremely unhelpful. I'm letting people know what I'm thinking. I'm announcing that IMO, random is pretty much cleared (GOOD). And before wicked decided to answer for someone else...I was engaging random in questions about his night actions (GOOD). WHICH...from memory...he seemed to have stated both that he did and that he did not have a shot remaining. So how is clarifying that a bad thing (IT'S NOT)? I disagree that it was "extremely unhelpful." And how is trying to wrap one's brain around the lack of a NK a bad thing? Something could still come of it but it was really just my writing down my thoughts as I was thinking them.

aka my stream of consciousness.

Speaking of which....that is what I was doing when I read through viking. I looked at each of his posts and gave my initial reaction to them (if one was warranted). Having not been on my radar the entire game...he deserved a closer look. And I did find some questionable things in his posting but not enough to overcome what I was seeing from random.

Speaking of which....my post on random was not a line by line ISO read like I did on viking. It was an ISO read on myself trying to summarize the things I had found suspect towards random. And having spent most of the 1st two days trying to get random lynched...I did not feel the need to do a read through similar to the one I did on viking because I was more in tune with my opinion of random's play. So my viking readthrough and my random summary WOULD look completely different. I said I would be summarizing...you call it cherrypicking. Nice negative spin where none is deserved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@FA_Q2...

how are my suspicions towards random "contrived as hell?" I would make the same assessment of your suspiscions towards me. You keep trying to tie in my suspcions towards random with other's suspicions towards viking. viking was never a target of mine so there would not be a reason to stop from "still pushing rando." I explained this just yesterday and you said it made sense.

And not voting someone I do not suspect is not "avoiding like the plague." Was I avoiding the Kop wagon "like the plague?" Are you a graduate of the same negative spin school as Aristo? Do you think it was not obvious viking was lining up to be the lynch yesterday? It was to me. Why, as town OR scum, would I avoid jumping on it? Why as scum would I stay as the lone vote on what is most likely town random when I could have bussed/lynched scum viking for town cred or brought Kop to L-1 as well...and either supported a mislynch there or strived for town cred depending on Kop's alignment? FYI...to avoid a no lynch I would have hammered viking (or Kop if he'd been at L-1).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Pre-readthrough reads:
Town: wicked and random
Slightly less town: Fish and massive
Suspect group: FA_Q2, Aristo, Kop

It made a bit of sense when we had no flip. Now we know that viking is scum and it makes a LOT more sense that you were trying to push an alternative wagon.

I explained why your reasons were as contrived as hell yesterday. You never adequately dealt with that. The only reason that I moved on from your wagon is that it was getting nowhere and it would not have served town's interest to be on a wagon that would have more likely created a no-lynch scenario and viking was another good scum candidate.

[FA_Q2]

Say what you want about POE, but there's absolutely no reason for me to hammer my scumbuddy when I can ignore the thread and let the no-lynch happen. There's no amount of towncred that replaces a scumbuddy. A no-lynch is as good as a mislynch if I'm scum.

You said you didn't know you were hammering...

And you can't honestly believe all of this. Firstly, a no lynch was never going to happen. I believe there was ~25-30 hours left at the time of your hammer. It's unreasonable to think that one vote could not get cast in that significant period of time. Secondly, a scum buddy is valuable, but the scum buddy in this case was already getting a lot of votes. I think town credit can replace a scum buddy that is already about to get lynched.

Have you ever bussed as scum before?

My hammer post stated what the timer showed. You've had timer / deadline issues all game, haven't you? And evidently I was the only one not voting. Do you think any of the people not voting for vikingfan would have moved?

And nice leading question. Do you ask a lot of questions where the answer is obvious and known to all players?

And nice dodge.

I would like to see you address the point as well. You just put fourth VERY poor logic in defense of yourself. That, IMHO, is generally done by scum.

[FA_Q2]

And nice dodge.

I would like to see you address the point as well. You just put fourth VERY poor logic in defense of yourself. That, IMHO, is generally done by scum.

Do you think there's a realistic reason to ask someone if they bus their buddies as scum?

I think the question was more rhetorical than anything - it brings up a valid point that your logic was fundamentally flawed.

And you have continued to avoid it.

[FA_Q2]

But if you can't honestly say that, then I have no reason to trust that you wouldn't bus vikingfan here.

If you think I would bus vikingfan in this situation, do you also think I would present a comprehensive case on his scummy behavior during the Randomidget shooting fiasco? If you think I would bus vikingfan here, how do you feel about being the (arguably) person paying attention and having a legit reason to vote randomidget? If you want a busser, it's FA (see 1029) who is happily jumping on your bad argument.

And the answer is, of course I bus buddies as scum. Everybody busses. Which is why it's a ridiculous question. The question you want, if it's a legitimate question, is "have I ever lynched a scumbuddy" and the answer to that is no. My games list is in my wiki entry.

Nice attempt to deflect this to me. That is about as scummy as it gets and reminds me of something that my scum mate in my very first newb game (the one and only game I have drawn scum on this site) here told me to do. He stated to answer any arguments that I was scum with exactly what you just did: no I am not scummy but this guy over here…

And it is a lie at that; I didn’t jump on his reasons. I had my own and I stated why. The ONLY reason that I had not scum read Viking this game was because his play was very close to another game I played with him where he was a PR and I thought that he had crumbed that role. Then that proved a misstep and he was the best lynch candidate.

[FA_Q2]

Also, I believe that's L-2

Yes, that is L-2 and I am fucking town. Have not done anything that would make me scummy this game but what the hell – lynch me and regret it. This game is getting annoying.

[FA_Q2]

At least go after fits when I flip town - his push was scummy as hell and no one is even looking at it.

[FA_Q2]

I'd like to hear what massive and fish's thoughts are.

FA....got claim?

Nope. Just hang me already.

I am basically being lynched for voting scum so I dont care to dance around such bullshit.

[FA_Q2]

ohhh, look - he finally went and did it.

And guess what - I am fucking town.

Goodbye - it dies not look good for us.

[FA_Q2]

I have and I am not going to bother anymore. Town is not going to win this one because they really do not deserve to win it.


The last several days have been annoying as hell. You already have my opinions - restating them here is a waste of time and effort nor is anyone going to listen to them more after my town flip.

[FA_Q2]

what would a mass claim day 4 have accomplished wicked? You bought the hider claim it seemed like to me.

If we mass claimed on day 4, then FA wouldn't have gotten lynched - we would have lynched between the two claims. Yes, I would have been tricked by havingfitz and pushed for a massive lynch. But even so, havingfitz would've been lynched on day 5. We would have made it to four man MyLo with only one scum left and it could have been different. If we had mass claimed on day 4, and havingfitz claimed VT, then massive would have been confirmed town - this also would have made it different. My scum read on Kop was largely based on my strong pre-assumption that massive was scum.

This isn't to discredit scum's win. You guys played well and earned it 100%. But I think this game shows that mass claim should happen the day before MyLo/LyLo.

Aristo, I'm also sorry for not listening to you yesterday.

I told you guys that fitz was scum.

No one listened

[FA_Q2]

Kop,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched day 5.

Usually, I would go into night now, because there is still a Doctor alive, but as you've all claimed and started talking as though the game is over, I'll skip night.

massive,

Town Doctor

, died night 5

A win condition has been reached!

Aristophanes,

Vanilla Townie

and Wickedestjr,

Vanilla Townie

, have been endgamed
havingfitz,

Mafia Roleblocker

and Aeronaut,

Mafia Goon

, survive and win!

Sorry mod