Touhou UPick 3 - [Game Over]

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Ankamius

[Ankamius]

If you are being voted by Sakura Hana, you may not declare any

Day-use

spellcards.

I can potentially make this negative utility. Does that count?

[Ankamius]

town: zmuffin,

Ank

, The Relentless, SB, Serenes Forest

no scumreads :<

vote: Shadoweh

Um, what?

I'm pretty sure everything I've done so far is dead-null at the most, so why exactly am I town?

[Ankamius]

Also going to warn everyone in advance that I'm ignoring meta from the list of players from #147 on each other.

[Ankamius]

You don't know what my spellcard does, so why would it be obscure? It literally feels right now like my spell card was designed to reduce the effectiveness of hers. They synergize together way too well.

[Ankamius]

Go ahead and seal my card; I'm not planning on using it unless there's a very good reason to.

You don't know what my spellcard does, so why would it be obscure? It literally feels right now like my spell card was designed to reduce the effectiveness of hers. They synergize together way too well.

I wouldn't expect that kind of role interaction to be on most people's radars right at the start of the game; and even if it was, I think it's smth a town player would be more likely to be vocal about than a scum player (especially at the start of the game when they have nothing else to go on).

Okay, I can accept this reasoning.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Ankamius
VOTE: The_Relentless

I decided to go through and inspect #76 in closer detail instead of mostly skipping it like I usually do and yeah, that's a scum post. There's not a single point in that post that I like.

[Ankamius]

Shadoweh is town. I get the warm fuzzies from her posts.

[Ankamius]

Shadoweh: Can you run through your tdgflsflmnop/Malakittens/ActionDan reads for me?

[Ankamius]

pieguyn: Can you update your town list for me please?

[Ankamius]

Kagami: Same question, actually.

[Ankamius]

Shadoweh: Can you run through your tdgflsflmnop/Malakittens/ActionDan reads for me?

No. They're obviously town. If you think they're scummy I probably think you're stupid. Or just unfamiliaar with one of them like Kilga.

That's actually the opposite of what I mean. I'm townhunting right now.

[Ankamius]

Anka: Literally forgot existed, some reads would be nice

I'd rather not.

[Ankamius]

pieguyn: Can you update your town list for me please?

TOWN (S->W):

Relentless

, Serene, Kilga, SB, zmuffin <gap> Mala, Kagami, Drezi, Ank

wha-

[Ankamius]

Like the reads list looks mostly fine to me, but Relentless being right at the top is literally the last thing I would have expected.

[Ankamius]

Town:
Kagami
Malakittens
pieguyn
SB
Shadoweh

Problem Slots:
Drezi
Kilgamayan
Rylai Crestfall
Serenes Forest

Scum:
The_Relentless

[Ankamius]

Can you sum it up for me? I'm not reading it either.

[Ankamius]

Spoiler: Quotestripe

Problem Slots

What does this actually mean?

It means they're not scummy enough to be a significant scumread, but they're very unlikely to be a town read in the near future.

I am going to shoot you Ankamius.

you will be DEAD

Go ahead and kill me. It would be a waste of your team's shot.

Lily reading Ankamius' latest posts, along with The Relentless' post, made Lily think and look again at Ankamius because Lily had honestly forgotten that Ankamius was in the game!

Ankamius do you want to expand on why Kilgamayan is a problem player.

Lily thinks that Ankamius should also expand on their thoughts about everyone they find relevant!
Lily tried looking through Ankamius' posts and Lily found nothing that resembled an opinion in Ankamius' posts other than The Relentless being scum for some reason that Lily doesn't see being explained and a few townreads that are also not explained!
Lily doesn't like that Ankamius prods other players continuously throughout the game to explain their reads while never doing this himself!

I explain my reads when I think they need to be explained; I'm a lot less concerned about it right now since I'm still sorting half of the playerlist out.

is there any reason you guys (read: just Kilgamayan and Shadoweh) are opposed to double-lynching on day 1

I would personally like the glory of lynching a scumread + lurker lynch at the same time

if we get two strong wagons that aren't outright competing then it's an even better idea

This post along with the other two I quoted in this post are more reasons why I'm scumreading this slot. Having multiple lynches day 1 is chaotic and keeps town from being focused; it actually reduces information too since there's much less chance of people having to compromise on slots. Being so intensely concerned with a scumread from me to immediately threaten to shoot me when he has no mention whatsoever of me beforehand isn't impressive.

Oh my god. No one is going to read that.

Can you sum it up for me? I'm not reading it either.

I didn't read SkyP's post! though skimming it it seems like moonlogic was employed!

I'm kind of baffled by this attitude. I'd understand it if it was Sky walling constantly failing to compress his thoughts and by the third or at least second wall he ends up like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and you just sigh and skip/skim his content. That is not the case here however and some people like pie have written a lot more words so far, and you have no problem reading that apparently. Is the fact that for Sky it's under a single post such a concern?

I don't read wallposts as a general rule unless I have a specific reason, and those are hard to come by. They take forever to read if you want to really analyze them and there's way too many words for a simple skim to get anywhere with them.

Nope, I'll continue to post as I see fit.

Are you an alt or have you played on a site other than mafiascum before? If the latter, can you link me to some of your town and scum games?

The problem is I don't have any basis for comparison to be absolutely certain that the way you're playing is more likely to come from you as scum, but everything you're doing feels really mechanical - like you're just picking things out and commenting on them in a perfunctory way because you're not actually interested in figuring out anyone's alignment, you're just interested in pushing an agenda and trying to appear like you're providing content here and there.

I think you're scum and nothing you're saying is changing my mind.

Vote: Drezi

I don't like this.

[Ankamius]

I like ActionDan as town too now. I forgot to mention that.

[Ankamius]

It nags at me to see someone ask a question, spend 3 lines expanding that question when it's not needed, then just coming out with a statement that bypasses it entirely. It feels manufactured.

[Ankamius]

It's just about the same thing; doesn't change the overall point.

And yes, there is an issue with it. You started by posting things to try to figure him out, then immediately after posted in a way that looks like you were already making your mind up. Why did you post your thoughts in that order?

[Ankamius]

Ok, I can see that being the case.

[Ankamius]

Also @Ankamius why is Kilga a problem slot? You didn't mention him at all before putting him in there.

The pieguyn suspicion. The reason to vote him in the first place followed by retracting it later and making a town case based on his play before the initial vote post doesn't sit well with me.

[Ankamius]

Bookmark. Also a post reminder that pieguy asked me a question.

[Ankamius]

Apt slip?

[Ankamius]

Fuck you too, autocorrect.

Alt

[Ankamius]

welp

[Ankamius]

I would really like to hear everyone's opinions on the walls from last page.

I wasn't joking about this request.

Anyone who doesn't comply will mysteriously disappear overnight.

My opinions on the walls from last page is that I'm not going to read the walls from last page. If that's reason enough for you to kill me tonight, then be my guest. Have fun wasting your shot.

[Ankamius]

Seeing as I'm probably dead, reads

SXTLHGaiden - null
GuyInFreezer - town
zMuffinMan - town
Sakura Hana - scum
pieguyn - scum
notscience - null
Ankamius - scum
Drezi - scum
ActionDan - scum
Shadoweh - town
thdgkdms - town
SB - scum
ooba - lol SK?
Kilgamayan - scum
Rylai Crestfall - scum
Katsuki - maybe claimed scum re: SB = Serious Bananas
Malakittens - town
Kagami - null

Happy to defend/clarify any of these if I'm still around when I get back :V

Make 1-2 sentences minimum for every single scumread. I'm having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around why anyone would have this list.

[Ankamius]

To address Ankamius' concerns about my pieguy unvote, my original pieguy vote was for different reasons than everyone else was bringing up as reason to vote for her, and I thought it would be uncouth to examine and address those reasons before deciding whether or not to maintain my vote.

UNVOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Kilgamayan

I really really don't like this response.

First of all, that's the most passive defense I've ever seen. It doesn't say pretty much anything.

Second, the only people who were pushing this at all were aoiurtmstmklasd and zmuffinman. The latter is a bit of a stretch to call this, since zMM didn't really say that, but the former is the only other instance of this I could see.

What exactly is the problem with this? The post that I linked from asiotgsoiut is directly referring to this post, where there are a lot more reasons listed than that for why that slot was suspecting pie. It would've been really bizarre to not know of the existence of the earlier post, so why exactly was that the point of focusing on that point?

[Ankamius]

uhhhh I'm noticing that I can't tell what my overall point is from what I posted, so I'll sum it up here:

The thought process behind the pieguyn reasoning is incredibly shallow and fake. If he had examined and addressed the reasons like he said he would, it wouldn't have been the point he actually responded to.

[Ankamius]

Self reminder to respond to SB and Kilga.

[Ankamius]

I got my first pick.

This game's next on my list. I'll have a response shortly.

[Ankamius]

I hatehatehatehate Sky_Paladin's reads list. There's so many different thought processes there that it looks made up.

He says that he's not sheeping zMuffin, but that's clearly just about the entire reasoning behind the SXTLH and Drezi reads.

SXTLH and Rylai Crestfall get put into the scumlist for being a nonentity (former only being put into null because of muffin sheeping), but notscience and Kagami get put into null for mostly the same reasoning. Also of note is Malakittens initially getting put into the townlist, but being pushed back to null for exactly the same reason.

Kilgamayan reasoning is fluff. Sakura read is slightly less fluff, but still mostly fluff.

pieguyn looks more like he's trying to discredit the slot and try to get him silenced. The part about it being good even if he's town especially makes me unnnnnnng.

[Ankamius]

My assessment of the alternate "case" against pieguy comes from post #280 sticking in my mind the most at the time, because it was a repeated point presented in a concise post. Since it was the point being emphasized, it was the one I went back to check, and reading through pieguy's ISO made me not agree with it. It is true that I should have also directly addressed the spellcard fishing thing Lily Keyboardsmash brought up, though. I have no meaningful reason for not doing this, just an excuse that's a combination of generic dearth of time, a poor attention span, laziness, and already feeling burned out by this game. I can't begrudge someone holding this against me.

I am curious what the other reasons to pursue pieguy you see in post #253, though (apparently there are "lots"), because all I see are the spellcard-fishing accusation and the contentlessness accusation.

Those are the two accusations, but the latter one is different than the one you responded to. You directly responded to the point that pieguy wasn't doing anything later on, when it was stated before that pretending to contribute was part of it too.

[Ankamius]

Holy shit we only have 2 days.

UNVOTE: Kilgamayan
VOTE: Sky_Paladin

[Ankamius]

Holy shit we only have 2 days.

UNVOTE: Kilgamayan
VOTE: Sky_Paladin

Vote: ooba

This isn't called compromising :<

I have no idea what you're saying.

[Ankamius]

Mine is just a few posts up the page.

[Ankamius]

Sixth is Ankamius. He vote parked two days out and never reappeared in the thread despite his post history suggesting he has been active in other parts of the forum. So I flag this one as a scum vote park. I'll have to read up on him before deciding to vig/investigate him though.

This is a very weak case and something I do basically every single game I play, completely irrelevant of alignment.

[Ankamius]

Hi.

[Ankamius]

lol

[Ankamius]

I have no regrets whatsoever even with a scumflip.

PEdit: FFS LET ME POST

[Ankamius]

Well there goes one off my null reads.

I think Mala is more town than scum. Is there any particular reason we're wagoning her?

[Ankamius]

Sakura associations are weak. That's not sufficient to earn a sheep.

[Ankamius]

Rabies Bite: ActionDan

[Ankamius]

No.

It's very inconvenient for you, though.

[Ankamius]

Super Town

Ankamius
pieguyn
zMuffinMan

Probably Town

GuyInFreezer
Kagami
Malakittens
Shadoweh
thdgkdms

Atrophied Down to Nullish

Kilgamayan
SB
ooba

Scumlean

Katsuki
Rylai Crestfall (Goes down to heavy scumread with AD scumflip; goes up to nullish with AD townflip)
Sky_Paladin

Scum

ActionDan

[Ankamius]

If Rylai was scum, scum wouldn't have skipped a kill n1.

I can see scum doing exactly what he did just as much as town.

[Ankamius]

Super Town

Ankamius
pieguyn
zMuffinMan

Probably Town

GuyInFreezer
Kagami
Malakittens
Shadoweh
thdgkdms

Atrophied Down to Nullish

Kilgamayan
SB
ooba

Scumlean

Katsuki
Rylai Crestfall (Goes down to heavy scumread with AD scumflip; goes up to nullish with AD townflip)
Sky_Paladin

Scum

ActionDan

This entire post reads to me like someone setting up suspicion for future lynches after AD today.

If ZMuff is strong town, why is SB nullish? GiF\thdkgms town since this game wasn't advertised as bastard.

I don't inherently trust mason claims. I believe it enough to have it be a non-issue until something happens that indicates the opposite, but I'm not going to completely write them off as town because of it.

What's wrong with SB being in the null spot?

[Ankamius]

Now your turn ank

why would scum skip a kill

Because:

this Day Phase.

Welp, guess who misread part of their PM. I thought it made me immune during night phase. W/e

Scum don't have daytalk. I can easily see Rylai using this to scout out town's power roles and get towncred while also thinking that since he thought it made him immune to spell cards during the night, it would still allow him to kill without being tracked.

[Ankamius]

k

PEdit: @GIF

[Ankamius]

nope

I don't think that's convincing.

[Ankamius]

Rylai using that card to scout town's power makes zero sense when it equally shows the scum's power as well.

Then either scum have more power during the day (likely; virtually proven with AD scumflip), their powers during the night are mostly weak (least likely), or they have powers that aren't very indicative of scum usage (possible).

This doesn't mean a whole lot by itself.

Attempting to get towncred and trying to be night-cards immnue is contradictory.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[Ankamius]

Are you talking to me with both of those or specifically to GIF with the Rylai read and me with the Kagami read?

The Kagami read has nothing to do with the global track.

[Ankamius]

Didn't shoot Ank: shortlisted to shoot due to general uselesness +

being found voting alongside scum on town.

what

[Ankamius]

Look at this vote count and tell me that consolidation is not a better idea than having a completely useless vote on a slot that up to that point, had little traction to a lynch with two days being an absurdly short time to

get

traction when there are two slots that are already pretty much guaranteed to be the choices for the day.

Also interesting how you're going this angle after ignoring my last response to it. What you're suggesting about my voting pattern at deadline is a dead null tell when applied to me because I strongly believe there isn't a single game on this site I've played where I haven't done this in some form or another. I lurk for days at a time and ignore conversations. I either post whenever I have something to say or too much time has passed since the last time I posted something (AKA prod).

But no, I specifically stayed out of the conversation during the end of the day. It was ridiculous enough that saying anything would've been a complete waste of breath. If people cared enough about why I was around and not voting for Drezi, they'd ask me themselves. My stance was obvious enough by the fact that I was specifically not moving my vote anyway.

[Ankamius]

The other point is just me being useless, which is just wrong and very boring as a case.

[Ankamius]

Actually, now that I look at it, I don't understand why you think I claimed bulletproof either.

[Ankamius]

You claimed to relentless that shooting you would be "wasting your teams shot"
After going through six of Sakuras games and finding that yes, reading the current game was sufficient to determine a scum slot, I basically do not consider "I always do xyz" as a clear. I think you are scummy and I will gladly see you dead, unless you do something that causes me to revise my assessment.

a. I was scumreading that slot at the time.
b. The tone he used when he said he was going to shoot me was so slimy that it hurt. It's a relatively simple way to see whether he'd back off or try to play the same game.
c. Getting shot is a waste of my role. I will die if shot, but it's not productive for either alignment to.

If you're so sure that the lurking point is alignment-indicative, then go ahead and tunnel it all day if you want. Doesn't change the fact that it's playstyle over alignment.

[Ankamius]

@Ank

Explain this list of reads.
Highlighted for my pleasure:

Super Town
Ankamius
pieguyn
zMuffinMan

Probably Town
GuyInFreezer
Kagami

Malakittens

Shadoweh
thdgkdms

Atrophied Down to Nullish
Kilgamayan
SB
ooba

Scumlean
Katsuki

Rylai Crestfall (Goes down to heavy scumread with AD scumflip; goes up to nullish with AD townflip)

Sky_Paladin

Scum

ActionDan

You know Dan is scum since you have been 'paying attention to the game'. So why list Rylai's alignment to be indicated by a flip on Dan? More specifically, why is Rylai (and Rylai alone) alignment dependent on Dan?

Because of Sakura interactions. There's one specific post that rang alarm bells in my head and it makes the best rational sense with all 3 as a scumteam.

Malakittens is town because of neighborhood interactions.

Post

I don't inherently trust mason claims.

Unless you believe all of Kilga, Thdgkgms and Guy in Freezer are scum, or one of the two fairies lied about being town confirmed (and if so, the other would report it), Thdgkgms and Guy in Freezer are confirmed town.

If you believe this is true, then there's nothing that would prove it to be false, in which case there's no real point to dwell on it.

1575

Then either scum have more power during the day (likely; virtually proven with AD scumflip), their powers during the night are mostly weak (least likely), or they have powers that aren't very indicative of scum usage (possible).

What is this? It looks like an attempt to justify a scum read on Rylai for no real reason. I want to kill this slot next please.

Passive-aggressive without any justification for why I'm wrong.

1584

It was ridiculous enough that saying anything would've been a complete waste of breath. If people cared enough about why I was around and not voting for Drezi, they'd ask me themselves. My stance was obvious enough by the fact that I was specifically not moving my vote anyway.

At what point did you decide that Drezi was scum

because that is what you essentially did by remaining silent as he was pulled apart slowly over 48 hours while you watched on silently

and deliberately

. And if you thought he was scum, why didn't you vote for him?

That's the point. I never thought Drezi was scum.

In 696, responding to Relentless who threatened to vig you, Ank said:

Have fun wasting your shot.

Just now he said, in 1586

Actually, now that I look at it, I don't understand why you think I claimed bulletproof either.

This

looks

to me that he got his role mixed up, or is making up things. I can accept that he would want to fudge being night immune but the fact that he specifically brought it up as something I had 'got wrong' when he had distinctly stated it earlier in the game looks very bad.

Relentless was your main scum read at the time. If you believed he is scum, why would you say he is 'wasting his shot' to kill you, if you didn't have some kind of defensive mechanism?

You're trying to burn me for assumptions YOU made instead of what I specifically said.

Like I said in my last post, I have a role that is wasted if I get shot. If enough stars align, it could help town a great deal. It's a possibility that could be incredibly useful, but it's pointless to try to shut it down by scum because it's not strong enough by itself to be worth eliminating.

[Ankamius]

Why exactly do you think I'm scum and why are you so convinced there's scum in our PT anyway?

[Ankamius]

The problem is that you listed Dan as 'scum'. Not 'possible scum' or 'potential scum' or even 'very likely scum'. You said

scum

in the same post where you listed Rylai as alignment indicated by Dan's flip. If you know he is scum then you should damn well list Rylai as scum in your list, and you didn't do it, so your reads are faked. The end.

This is pure bullshit and you already know it just from how you worded this section. You're correct in that I didn't say it as 'possible scum', 'potential scum', or even 'very likely scum.' You might also notice that I didn't put 'confirmed scum' or any other variant either.

You're grasping at straws and the fact that you're trying to force the engagement shut directly after doing it is really slimy.

Malakittens is town because of neighborhood interactions.

Malakittens is calling you scum because of those exact same interactions.

Do you agree with her that you are scum? Why? Why not?

This is a false question. Thinking someone is town from interactions is completely different from agreeing with them. I think Malakittens is wrong (beyond what she was already wrong on), but I don't think the thought processes are scum-motivated.

The only thing that's really weird about her play is how she got to the conclusion that there has to be a scum in our neighborhood, but it doesn't translate very strongly to scum behavior.

If you believe this is true, then there's nothing that would prove it to be false, in which case there's no real point to dwell on it.

Don't play coy. You brought the masons comment up because you were asked you why you didn't have confirmed town in the confirmed town slot.
You also aren't doing anything to put your supposed scum reads - Katsuki, Rylai, or myself - up on the block and are purely defending your slot.

Yet you're the only person who I have an issue with a scumread of me on.

I can read people attacking me better than any other situation I end up in, and your attack pings harder every time you post about it.

Passive-aggressive without any justification for why I'm wrong.

You said this:

Then either scum have more power during the day (likely; virtually proven with AD scumflip), their powers during the night are mostly weak (least likely), or they have powers that aren't very indicative of scum usage (possible).

How was this indicative of scum anybody? What were you trying to achieve here? It looks like fake content and that's why I called you on it.

GIF was attacking my scumread on Rylai because of the global track card he played on D1. I was listing off reasons that would make it less harmful for scum to have it as one of their powers. How exactly is this fake content or fluff?

That's the point. I never thought Drezi was scum.

You were around at phase end and could easily have addressed your vote until after hammer, but you declined to do so. I can't help but take a negative view of that. Your actual post after hammer was:

I have no regrets whatsoever even with a scumflip.

That statement could easily have come from scum, so, can you explain more about it please?

We literally just went full circle.

Like I said in my last post, I have a role that is wasted if I get shot.

That is not what you said.
What you said was:

c. Getting shot is a waste of my role. I will die if shot, but it's not productive for either alignment to.

About the only way I could see this to be true is if you are a tree stump. We already have one of those.
Why is it not productive for scum to shoot you, given that their objective is to kill a whole bunch of us, and that you are claiming to be one of us?

How are those two statements you quoted any different?

This question doesn't make any sense. Scum

do

want to kill town, but they prioritize town that are the most likely to win town the game. Unless my reads happen to be spot on or they're wary of me suddenly slingshotting onto the right track, killing me is a waste of time for them.

And no, I'm not a tree stump.

Doesn't change the fact that it's playstyle over alignment.

If you're playstyle is scummy enough to get you lynched, you might want to reflect on that for future games.

This statement came out of nowhere too.

But either way, It's rare for me to get lynched as town. I'm at my strongest when being attacked, so getting a mislynch on me is a lot harder than it might look.

[Ankamius]

@Mod: Can you fix that quote tag please?

[Ankamius]

Spoiler:

@Ank

This is pure bullshit and you already know it just from how you worded this section. You're correct in that I didn't say it as 'possible scum', 'potential scum', or even 'very likely scum.' You might also notice that I didn't put 'confirmed scum' or any other variant either.You're grasping at straws and the fact that you're trying to force the engagement shut directly after doing it is really slimy.

blah blah blah you are guilty as charged, I see.

You are so scum.

What I've been getting at is that I don't deal in absolutes as a rule unless I have a read that is so strong that it's virtually obvtown status. You trying to say that my read on Rylai is bullshit because I think ActionDan is confirmed scum is ridiculous and false.

This is a false question. Thinking someone is town from interactions is completely different from agreeing with them. I think Malakittens is wrong (beyond what she was already wrong on), but I don't think the thought processes are scum-motivated. The only thing that's really weird about her play is how she got to the conclusion that there has to be a scum in our neighborhood, but it doesn't translate very strongly to scum behavior.

You listed Mala as 'probably town', despite many players scum reading her, based on these supposed interactions in your topic that nobody can read except Mala and Kilga.

So?

Town are very likely to have to lynch between you, Katsuki and Mala in day 4. Can you give us some reason for being able to rule out Mala or yourself as scum? I accept you can't copy from the topic, but can you post comment numbers, say why you think it's town, and then we can at least have Kilga agree/disagree if what you said make sense.
Otherwise we have no way to identify if you are just fabricating reads.

Reads are biased in a way that looks town.
Frustration is genuine.

Yet you're the only person who I have an issue with a scumread of me on.

I can read people attacking me better than any other situation I end up in, and your attack pings harder every time you post about it.

I have an issue with bad votes. You consolidate voted 48 hours away from phase end, and did nothing to support/stop a Drezi lynch. It increasingly seems likely that Ooba is scum, so that means when you had a choice of three wagons, you consolidated on to the main lynch counterwagon to scum. And didn't re-evaluate. You were around and could have done something, and I contend that town would have. You didn't do anything, and I think that's the scum mindset.

"I can read people attacking etc" that is what we call confirmation bias, chum.

This part is very interesting, but mainly because most of it is basically worthless. Most of this is based on the idea that Ooba is scum, which is a fallacious argument. You can't base an independent scumread on someone based on associations that aren't proven.

Even if Ooba is scum, this isn't a very strong point regardless. Considering most of the 'consolidating' phase after I voted you was Muffin/Drezi's back and forth and everyone's reactions to that back and forth, there's not exactly much to consolidate. I'm not going to waste my time posting when it's not going to have a use, and it very clearly wasn't going to have a use. Drezi was going to be the lynch regardless of what I did just based on the implosion.

And it's not confirmation bias. Thanks for trying, though.

We literally just went full circle.

No we literally did not.
I want you to explain why you were sitting around at the end of the phase, with the sudden emergence of a third wagon whom you were supposedly town reading, and did nothing to support him (given Ooba had more votes than I did at this point and Ooba is increasingly likely to be scum). I don't accept "nobody asked my opinion" as a valid reason. This is a communative game, you are supposed to give your opinion no matter how stupid sounding it might be.
You didn't update your vote or even address why maintaining your vote park was okay, which would also have been acceptable. After I said that your actions were indicative of a scum read on Drezi, you said you didn't have a scum read on Drezi.
If you were really town reading Drezi, as you said you were, I feel that a town player would have said or done something. You didn't do anything except post 'Hi' after being called out for lurking.

Your case is still making no sense. You're saying that I had a scumread on Drezi because... I wasn't helping him deliberately. Despite the fact that... I also wasn't voting him. Deliberately.

Do you really think it would be difficult to fabricate a reason to get onto that wagon? I just checked my own ISO and I realized I never actually posted that I was townreading Drezi soon after I posted my initial reads list, so the only actual stated reads I had on Drezi were negative at that point.

Completely ignoring D2/3 stuff for a second, what exactly is the scum mindset behind putting a negative read on a town player early, not posting any particular read on them throughout the rest of the day, then completely ignoring the wagon on that same slot when I was being questioned about my current vote?

Ooba is probably dying this phase along with Dan. If Ooba flips scum, (which you seem to agree with since you've got Ooba dropping down towards scum in your read list) then you're caught voting on the town counterwagon to scum, alongside flipped scum Sakura and Dan. The motive of your inaction and bad vote is the critical question that must be resolved before Ooba flips. I'm asking you to explain this thought in great detail because this is the sole point that your alignment can be demonstrated easily by you. And I'm seeing you evade and actually double back instead of answering evenly, and so I think the reason is -> you are scum.

Actually, you have it completely backwards. Relentless was scum early on in the game and it went towards null as the read itself became more stale and other people started catching my interest far more.

Sakura was voting for ooba-slot for the entire time that she was voting for you, so that part of the point is meaningless. ActionDan specifically stated that he would rather no-lynch than allow Drezi to get lynched, even though it would've been easy for him to find a reason to join that wagon. The Drezi wagon was one of the easiest ones I've seen in recent memory. The fact that you're trying to argue that the scumteam is trying to protect ooba by voting for a town counterwagon is completely absurd when half of the people in your proposed scumteam

specifically did not vote for Drezi despite having ample time to.

But no, I'm not interested in trying to explain my actions at the time further.

How are those two statements you quoted any different?

In your point c, you imply that your role has some value (some strategic value) that is wasted if you die. That means that there's a strategic reason for why scum might want to kill you, e.g spell cards/abilities you have.
In your follow up, you left this out.
You then ramble on about scum wifom

Unless my reads happen to be spot on or they're wary of me suddenly slingshotting onto the right track, killing me is a waste of time for them.

and how scum would rather kill useful, contributing townies, that by coincidence, might include you.

These points are not in alignment, just like your reads are not in alignment, just like your actions day 1 are not in alignment.

"Like I said in my last post,

I have a role that is wasted if I get shot

."

Compared to:

"

Getting shot is a waste of my role

. I will die if shot, but it's not productive for either alignment to."

I still don't understand how they don't mean the same thing, since that's obviously what you're referring to by your own explanation and the fact that you specifically quoted those two links.

This statement came out of nowhere too.

I'm seeing town stagnate/lose motivation because we have a confirmed scum and the secondary wagon, Ooba, isn't doing anything to defend itself. So I want to get a headstart on the next day phase by looking for a third (and fourth) lynch candidate. When we have MuffinMan, who isn't obligated to play any further, posting more content than most of the town combined, that's a problem.

No it's not. The person you're talking about does that regardless.

[Ankamius]

Rylai: Most recent bunch of posts are all fluff/IIoA. His early reads feel cherrypicked and his latter reads feel fabricated.
Sky Paladin: obv
Katsuki: Replaced Relentless. Nothing about his posting gave me good feelings.

I got replacements mixed up and apparently reached the conclusion that ooba replaced Relentless and not Serene. Give me a sec.

[Ankamius]

Actually, I don't really have to change anything for the one point. Serenes Forest-slot had pretty much the same type of read changes as Relentless over time, just different severity. Point still stands.

[Ankamius]

I've asked FG if I can post my

N2

analysis from the neighbourhood in its entirety - but from Sakura's ISO:
Town: Notty, Pie, Muff, Kil
Scum possibilities: GiF, {AD\Lily}, SB, SkyPal

[Ankamius]

Mine was first.

How do we know it wasn't a mistype? Especially since what you quoted is the last thing he posted?

[Ankamius]

In your quote, Ooba is referring to the Mala/Kilga/Ank neighbourhood.
In my quote, Ooba is referring to the Ooba/Katsuki neighbourhood.

...?

Regardless, it doesn't really matter.

[Ankamius]

Sorry, they could have talked N2 but that would imply Cupcake was lying about not having enough time to even read the game.

ooba claimed they did, so this remains true.

[Ankamius]

This entire situation feels way too farfetched to really be true as a scumslip.

[Ankamius]

FTR, Malakittens did actually explain the Sakura read in the PT. It was one of the things I specifically asked her on N1.

It's one of the reasons I'm townreading the slot; I could have sworn I specifically posted this line somewhere in the thread, but I felt Mala was being biased in a more town than scum way with it.

[Ankamius]

I believe #1912. It would be a very unreasonable coincidence for him to be lying about this.

[Ankamius]

ITT Sky_Paladin conveniently forgets that I've been scumreading him since before I even voted him D1.

[Ankamius]

Ank wow dude no. No you did not.

You first mentioned me, ever, here.

You are literally only scum reading me

because I had you in my scum list

.

You are completely making up your reads.

Mala: I literally do not give a shit about your night 1 reads. I am interested in your current reads which you, apparently, have none.

Cut

Ok. I guess that beats me voting for Mala like I had planned to.

Oh.

My.

God.

This really really has to die.

[Ankamius]

In no fucking universe is that response town.

[Ankamius]

Anyone who ISOs me and looks will be able to tell why that response is so bad.

[Ankamius]

I'm not voting to lynch Sky, so i don't know why you're bothering to argue with him all day. <_<

I feel like I have to until either everyone else sees the shit I'm seeing or he starts making any sense.

[Ankamius]

Don't trust apples. They have worms in them.

[Ankamius]

Are you telling me you want me inside you

[Ankamius]

Lay out your entire analysis in one post so I can get a bead on where you're coming from.

[Ankamius]

I am pretty sure Kilgamayan is town now, almost purely from his actions.

I think town would be more likely than scum to check the Lily pair Night 1, although granted it's entirely possible that it was a lie. I am inclined to believe that it is genuine simply because of him checking me on N2. It's technically possible for someone to figure out what I'm referring to with my posts about the other part of my role, but he stated something that basically confirms that he knows exactly what it is (or at least the general gist of it).

That's not indicative of town by itself, but I don't really see scum using that information to try to shut down Sky_Paladin's attempts to focus on that specific point. I'm "more in the PoE pool" than Sky_Paladin is (if that makes sense) and it's a really dubious scum play to go that angle.

[Ankamius]

And TBH when I look at neighborhood posts, I don't really think they're scumposts.

The entire neighborhood PT makes a lot more sense with all-town than with a scum.

[Ankamius]

I'd like you to go into more detail on why you think Rylai is town. That slot stands out since I'm not really that impressed with him and your reasoning doesn't look very solid.

I'd have to say that I'd be wrong on Shadoweh or Kagami if a townread of mine is actually scum, mostly since both of them gave me pretty big townreads early on and gave me far more sporadic town feels than I think would be justified for that strong of a read, but I'm not all that worried about it unless it gets to the point where it's virtually confirmed that a townread is scum.

[Ankamius]

Also I decided for shiggles that I should look at interactions for a Sakura+Dan+Rylai team beyond that one post I saw and what I found doesn't really impress. It's not difficult at all to see that team.

[Ankamius]

I'm a lot more skeptical of the question/answer thing than you are.

1. Sakura's wording of the first question looks staged. I don't like how she's asking him about a read on her based on scumreading GIF for the same thing, but asks what his opinion is instead of why he's not putting her in the same boat.

2. I don't like how when Sakura voted for Rylai, she stated that the last two posts were the reason she got the scumread. Since the first of the two was the post where he answered her questions, it feels odd that she decided not to comment on it before.

3. Combination of the above; Sakura pretty much ignored Rylai entirely after that point except to say that the scumread was too easy. It makes sense for this to be a play to try to gain towncred with pieguy and potentially gain some in the future if Rylai ever flipped scum.

a. I have no idea what to make of Rylai's readswitch on Sakura from town to null. Something's nagging me about it but I can't put my finger onto why.

[Ankamius]

Actually, now that I think about it, it could be possible that the question in 1 was meant to be a subtle nudge to put down a townread, then Rylai later decided on his own to put some distance between them by dropping that read later on.

[Ankamius]

ActionDan calm your tits

[Ankamius]

Meh, I don't know. He also stated that he can read Rylai pretty well on the other site that he's on, so it could be an attempt to gain towncred for him preemptively.

Thing is, I don't really remember it being given much attention by anyone else, which gives me pause. I know AD is competent enough to have an idea of whether that would work or not, so that makes me hesitant to really push this as anything more than ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Ankamius]

to what

[Ankamius]

Pretty much the same as my reads list from whenever the fuck long ago. Sky_Paladin and Katsuki.

[Ankamius]

That's a very interesting statement sky.

[Ankamius]

I'm torn. I can see a few things that could be scum theatre, but by and large I can't really think of how it would be comparable to how much bussing would have to be involved for it to really work.

The closest I can get is them trying to hard-bus their scumbuddy in D1 for towncred, then having Sakura unvote when the Drezi wagon really gets going while ActionDan stays on to keep it believable. The problem with this is that it's more dangerous than just going for the ooba wagon and pushing that through; I'd expect that the 4th player in the scumteam would be on that wagon for sure if this was somehow the case.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Rylai Crestfall

In honor of Kilgamayan.

[Ankamius]

That's not role info btw, that's he's-very-likely-scum info.

[Ankamius]

I'd very much like Rylai to fullclaim before I do. Otherwise, I really don't care about the order.

[Ankamius]

lmao

[Ankamius]

It will take a lot of convincing to get me to claim before Rylai does.

I can go more into what Kilga and I talked about later when I'm not ready to go sleep for an early shift, but we bounced ideas on various things throughout the game and pretty much every conclusion had Rylai square in the scumlist.

[Ankamius]

Oh right, Shadoweh: KILGAMAYAN IS SORRY FOR EVER DOUBTING YOU.

All caps was specifically requested.

[Ankamius]

It will take a lot of convincing to get me to claim before Rylai does.

I can go more into what Kilga and I talked about later when I'm not ready to go sleep for an early shift, but we bounced ideas on various things throughout the game and pretty much every conclusion had Rylai square in the scumlist.

You were in neighbor with kilga?

Yeah, I was in a neighborhood with Kilga/Mala.

[Ankamius]

Youkai Mountain:

Malakittens: Kasen Ibaraki
Kilgamayan: Aya Shameimaru
Ankamius: Momiji Inubashiri

[Ankamius]

Is it not true?

Your posts in day 3 read like a ballad where you desperately beg for people to vote for me instead of Ooba.

Here's your last post of the day:

I'm torn. I can see a few things that could be scum theatre, but by and large I can't really think of how it would be comparable to how much bussing would have to be involved for it to really work.

The closest I can get is them trying to hard-bus their scumbuddy in D1 for towncred, then having Sakura unvote when the Drezi wagon really gets going while ActionDan stays on to keep it believable. The problem with this is that it's more dangerous than just going for the ooba wagon and pushing that through; I'd expect that the 4th player in the scumteam would be on that wagon for sure if this was somehow the case.

You were not fucking torn. Your choice was between voting confirmed scum Dan, or basically confirmed scum Ooba, and you chose: Nobody.

In fact you laid out an amazing case as to why Ooba was scum by wagon analysis (copied from my own, of course) but then failed to actually consider the scenario of what if Ooba was scum.

You didn't read the context of that post.

[Ankamius]

It looks like I won't have to explain last night's PT talks a whole lot because fferylt already touched on a lot of it.

I just skimmed the post but I'll read the familiar parts and respond soon. I'm at work currently.

[Ankamius]

Ffery: What do you think about Ooba's reasoning on Rylai in #737?

[Ankamius]

@Ank

Do you have a role related reason for wanting Rylai to claim before you?

Yes.

[Ankamius]

My role is pretty boring.

Name: Momiji Inubashiri (Petty Patrol Tengu)
Race: Non-Human

Neighborhood Access: Youkai Mountain

Spellcard -> Rabies Bite (Day Use): Target player cannot unvote during the day phase. Does not affect spellcards.
Ability -> Telegnosis: At the beginning of the day phase, you become aware of every player who targeted you during the last night phase.

I wanted Rylai to think I might have dirt on him and panic for it if he's scum, but I now realized after looking at my PM again that it's probably not a passive ability anyway, so it wouldn't have said a whole lot by itself.

[Ankamius]

Nope. Like I said, I assumed it was passive until today.

[Ankamius]

Presumably, I use it during night and learn who visited me during night the next day phase.

[Ankamius]

I actually was correct the first time. It is indeed a passive. That means I was never once targeted for the entire game.

Kilgamayan specifically said when he claimed he knew what that ability was that it was non-targeting. I asked him what my ability was once night 3 started and he was able to correctly say the name and roughly what it does.

[Ankamius]

The only thing that strikes me about pieguy is his decrease in activity over time. Everything else I'm seeing on him is just... not strong.

He's really not that hard to read based on play. If the majority of his 'town' interactions were his argument with Sakura, then I'd be more inclined to humor this, but it extended far enough beyond that to make it unlikely that it's scum theatre.

[Ankamius]

wow

I for one am glad that he never got to use most of that, because what the fuck?

[Ankamius]

No, if he's using the JK shot tonight, he's using it on me.

[Ankamius]

I would have a very difficult time believing Katsuki's JK shot is non-visiting because I've been feeling like this ability is less and less useful as time goes on as it is.

[Ankamius]

Rylai is so scum wow

[Ankamius]

No. Your attempts to resist the JK revealing target idea after we already had the discussion about why targeting me is the optimal choice and how it won't actually stop my ability from going through, then just completely dropped it right afterwards.

The rest of your posts today are completely insubstantive.

[Ankamius]

Can we just lynch Rylai today? Unless the last scum is outside of this Katsuki-Rylai-me trifecta, then town just straight up wins with that setup.

[Ankamius]

And if Rylai ninjalynches ever, then lynch him immediately tomorrow.
If Katsuki doesn't jailkeep me tonight, then lynch him immediately tomorrow.
Scum is in a really tough spot regardless of whether a kill happens or not. A kill happening virtually clears me since the only way I'd be able to kill at all is if I was hiding a strongman shot, but I'm pretty damn sure that Kilgamayan would've been able to see if I did or not.

[Ankamius]

The only way I can see this plan failing is if scum (that's not Katsuki) can still block, but the chances of that is virtually nothing.

[Ankamius]

1. You're advocating putting the jailkeep into his hands to do whatever the hell he wants with, which is strictly worse if he's scum. By forcing him to use it on me and have me confirm it, it removes his options if he's scum.
2. There's no evidence at all of a recurring block ability being in the game, and the game state with so many confirmed or probtown players makes having a hidden block very unlikely.
3. Your point about lynching being more likely to net scum or not is completely irrelevant. A lot of this game is virtually PoEable and removing one from the unconfirmed will lessen the scumpool regardless.
4. Rylai ninjalynching is awful for his alignment regardless of what it is because he'll be lynched tomorrow guaranteed if he does.
5. Saying that we'll lie if one of us is scum is nonsense. I can't lie about him targeting me because I will get lynched and lose. He can't NOT target me because he'll get lynched and lose. Lying if we're both scum is bad because the chances of us being PoEd out in the end is too high for it to be any use over confirming each other's actions.

[Ankamius]

No, that ensures that we know where the jailkeep goes regardless of his alignment.

[Ankamius]

Should I just paraphrase everything Kilga and I said in our PT last night?

[Ankamius]

Isn't the relative PoE list for right now only consisting of three players?

[Ankamius]

Well, I'd be pretty surprised if there was any scum outside of {Katsuki, Rylai, Sky_Paladin}, so.

[Ankamius]

Ooba's response to my reads list after literally never referencing me before even once makes me pretty certain I had scum besides Dan in my sights. Guess what that list contains.

Individual stuff is either stuff I went into already yesterday and hasn't changed since (Katsuki), unwilling to go into more because it would get nowhere and I'm not all that interested in pushing over the others (Sky_Paladin), and the slot that I'd have to paraphrase pretty much the entire conversation from my PT yesterday to really do justice (Rylai).

[Ankamius]

I never once said that you should lynch yourself. We have more than enough players to lynch you if we have to.

[Ankamius]

Yes that's clearly what's going on here. You figured it out.

(@2747)

[Ankamius]

I'm not going to put that much effort into making a case if we're just going to lynch Katsuki anyway, so I'm mainly waiting to see if there's interest from my actual townreads for me to put that effort in.

I'm also not really interested in going along with your posts or engaging with you because it both went absolutely nowhere and did nothing to help anyone last time, so there's no particular reason that would be any different this time.

[Ankamius]

If Rylai ninjalynches someone when he gets run up, then he just gets lynched tomorrow anyway. It's not a good idea for him to do it as either alignment.

[Ankamius]

1. You're advocating putting the jailkeep into his hands to do whatever the hell he wants with, which is strictly worse if he's scum. By forcing him to use it on me and have me confirm it, it removes his options if he's scum.
2. There's no evidence at all of a recurring block ability being in the game, and the game state with so many confirmed or probtown players makes having a hidden block very unlikely.
3. Your point about lynching being more likely to net scum or not is completely irrelevant. A lot of this game is virtually PoEable and removing one from the unconfirmed will lessen the scumpool regardless.
4. Rylai ninjalynching is awful for his alignment regardless of what it is because he'll be lynched tomorrow guaranteed if he does.
5. Saying that we'll lie if one of us is scum is nonsense. I can't lie about him targeting me because I will get lynched and lose. He can't NOT target me because he'll get lynched and lose. Lying if we're both scum is bad because the chances of us being PoEd out in the end is too high for it to be any use over confirming each other's actions.

Since we can't lynch rylai unless all the stars align and stuff, then who are you suggesting be lynched today?

I technically already answered this on the last page, but I'll put it here again so it's directly there.

Rylai > Katsuki > Sky_Paladin is my list.

[Ankamius]

Yes it is. It's definitely a good idea to make sure someone not-his-alignment gets lynched as either alignment. Like wow. The chances would be 100% more likely to hit scum if he's town. Would you really let people lynch you if you were town and had a 'target and lynch' power? I feel bad for your confidence.

That's only a worthwhile risk if he's sure about his reads. If he pulled that and hit town, then we'd effectively be down four town via two lynches and two night kills. It's way too much of a risk.

[Ankamius]

Huh?

[Ankamius]

That was at ffery.

[Ankamius]

No, it was at you (Ank). My 2761 is at Ank. Obviously.

I was referring to my own post.

[Ankamius]

I'm not going to put that much effort into making a case if we're just going to lynch Katsuki anyway, so I'm mainly waiting to see if there's interest from my actual townreads for me to put that effort in.

I'm also not really interested in going along with your posts or engaging with you because it both went absolutely nowhere and did nothing to help anyone last time, so there's no particular reason that would be any different this time.

[Ankamius]

I wouldn't mind one bit if SP was lynched, but that's because I've gotten really slimy vibes from every single engagement he's had with me the entire game, literally to the point that it makes sense for it to be playstyle over actual alignment. I won't shed tears with a Katsuki lynch, but I prefer Rylai because he's my biggest scumread and I think it would cause issues for scum over the widest range of people.

My reads have actually changed very little since day 3 began.

[Ankamius]

Kagami's town. That's a read I'd stake the game on.

[Ankamius]

I played a single game with Kagami where I was scum and she was town, but she ended up getting mislynched D1.

A pretty significant part of my townread is from associations.

1. ActionDan goes ham on Kagami here
2. Serenes Forest handily agrees with ActionDan and puts both Kagami and Sakura as the only scumreads here

With how half-assed a lot of the bussing on D1 was (predominantly at the end of the day), it doesn't really sit right to me for two scum to start a wagon so handily on a partner. Sakura's response to it was to try to pry it apart, but that tells me that she was trying to distance Dan and SF from each other more than trying to stop that wagon from getting steam.

[Ankamius]

Unless pieguy's scumplay really improved since I last saw it, this isn't his scumgame. I'd be willing to stake the game on this too.

[Ankamius]

-_-

[Ankamius]

This?

I'm not finding anything very indicative either way in that post. I'm really meh on the first paragraph, but it doesn't sound like the kind of meh that scum would make. I don't even understand paragraph three, but I don't really see scum intent in that either.

[Ankamius]

No, I don't think anything there indicates Rylai town.

[Ankamius]

Is there a list of claims out there anywhere? I'd have to look at the full list to be able to answer the second paragraph.

For the first, can you point to it for me?

@Pie

[Ankamius]

Did Dan or Ooba mention Gaiden at all day 2 or 3? It could've been something Sakura did or related to her role in general.

[Ankamius]

Can you point me to where you got that conclusion from for me?

[Ankamius]

I meant for Sky_Paladin, sorry.

[Ankamius]

I would very much enjoy the headdesking I'd be doing if that happened.

After the concussion went away at least.

[Ankamius]

If I get asked something in that timeframe, then wait. I'm not going to be here for a while.

[Ankamius]

Eleven.

[Ankamius]

This is another game where I prove that trying to base my reads entirely on logic and ignoring my gut will fuck me over. I would have tunneled Katsuki to death all game based on Relentless' play if I hadn't shifted into that mindset. I blame Sky_Paladin for forcing me to do that >:/ Our playstyles are way too contradictory to ever be able to work together effectively and that really could have hurt town if anyone had bothered to care about our fights.

It was a fun game, though.

[Ankamius]

I really really wish I could've stuck with the mindset I wanted to go into this game and just get enough town reads to get working together that we could've jointly PoE'd the rest of the game. It might've worked if I had stuck to that, especially since I knew I could trust GIF and Pieguy to figure out I'm town.

I'm glad to know that my townreads were all town, though. That's all I had hoped for coming into the game.

[Ankamius]

People were using their gut to townread katsuki.

Gut is bad.

Not in my case. I get better reads from gut than logic in most of my games.

[Ankamius]

I'm kinda curious as to what would've happened if Mala had survived to night 3. Since Kilga finally had time to do stuff during the night, we could've done even more than we already did.

[Ankamius]

Ank I'm so sorry for distracting you all the Rylai stuff on N3 I felt legit bad when I learned that Katsuki was the last scum.

You can probably guess why I try to go with my gutreads :/

[Ankamius]

I think the major problem with gut reads is that they do little to nothing in the way of convincing other people. By and large, no townie is an island; what good are correct reads if no one listens to you?

Kinda.

My playstyle is basically push gut reads and try to get reactions to build upon those reads, then really push when I feel like I've found scum. I never try to be a major town bandwagon starter unless my reads are strong enough to warrant it. Generally when I end up having that role when I'm not trying to, it means I'm way off track and scum are trying to take full advantage of that (also, if you ever are bored and want something hilarious to watch, look at LoL mafia in the subforum for this one and look at how I took a lot of control in the game and did a lot to destroy the town itself. It's the perfect example of this). I rarely ever lay out all my cards on the table and only lay them out when I believe it's time to.

Funnily enough, I believe that is why I rarely get mislynched.

[Ankamius]

Kilga we should play again. I think we could really do some work in other games.

[Ankamius]

This is why I continued to try and pressure Ank to do something, because he was being vague for no reason.

Playstyle incompatibility.

[Ankamius]

Oh right I was going to take my mask off.

[Ankamius]

Re: Mala vig;
It's a shame that we basically wasted two vig shots on terrible players that turned out to be town. However, I support the removal of trash players from the game and look forward to our double lynch of Ank + one of Ooba/Katsuki tomorrow.

This one.

[Ankamius]

All I expect from people after a game is to put their play into perspective and learn from it; in game play is pretty much irrelevant to me since it's all about psychology and manipulating people's psyche and emotions is just part of the game.

I thought before this game that I could gutread people attacking me with a pretty high success rate, but now I know that it gets less accurate as it starts being a constant scumread. It took half the game outright telling me that I was wrong for me to start realizing that.

Otherwise, no hard feelings. I was initially a little irked when this continued post game, but it was basically the same situation, so I can understand it.