Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

Ok I'm silly

I'll put in some links later but that main idea is that RC takes more stances and has more conviction in his toe game than either his scum game or this game.

[Infinity 324]

Wingback, I'll point it the posts in a bit. RC voting shadow and not giving a clear stance on whether he thins he's scum is an example, though I don't have a problem with the survivalistic vote since he clearly admitted it.

Farside is town for sure. She displays paranoia when town should be paranoid, is genuinely trying to figure out the game, and is Poe with her thoughts (the same reason why I townread lane to a lesser extent).

[Infinity 324]

^^ town

In other news, shadow's rage about being wagoners reads town to me.

[Infinity 324]

I'm sorry

[Infinity 324]

[float=][/float]^^ opportunistic as hell vote.

Also look at my sig.

About RC:

These are posts of his in his town game, they look very decisive and taking firm stances.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7551556
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7526278
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7531167
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7520172

In his scum game, he tends to be more cautious and takes fewer firm stances:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7632789
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7629799
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7645554

In this game he seems to be less decisive, closer to his scum game. For example:

Spoiler: less-decisive RC

RC, what is your read on Persivul? You've gone to great lengths to argue that lane's bet was non-alignment-indicative, do you have a read on him outside of that? (Especially given that his terrible hand was revealed.)

As previously stated, Persivul would rank as my top townread at this time. At this point, lane would be followed shortly thereafter.

He responded how you wanted. What issue do you have with him pointing out his objections with those questions? What was the point of the last two questions?

It's my responsibility to decipher whether or not those objections are found earnestly or whether they're part of an ulterior motive. Thus far, I am not impressed with MoI's scumhunting, but I'm understandably biased.

---

Why did you just happen to hop on the biggest wagon again?

There's no reason not to vote my top scumread at this time. Your incriminatory rhetoric is not appreciated.

I don't remember specifically. Frankly I didn't pay a huge attention to the shop aspect given it doesn't come into play until Night 1. I was more interested in the actual mechanics. You know ... things like Jokers.

I'm beginning to notice a pattern of you "forgetting" or "not paying attention" to events or activities that should would concern town-aligned players attempting to scumhunt honestly.

---

This is rather blatant role fishing. There is no town reason to tell scum what you are going to do with the money gained - it jsut tells them who they need to eliminate and/or what potential a particular slot may have.

The best choices are really fucking obvious. The point was to see his frame of mind.

It's worth asking, I think. Since the powers are made public, and MM has won the hand in public, there's little reason to act mum about it. If MM chooses not to say, he may argue that position, but I don't see the harm in asking him.

---

Lane is moving up to pretty strong town for being open with all his thoughts.

Agreed. That would be my position on lane as well. I don't know if he could conceal that level of openness if he wanted to.

---

You have no idea about my meta at all.

Pathetic vote.

It would be more productive to prove him wrong than complain about it.

Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.

S_S says that we should force the scummy players off of a wagon. The only way to "force" players off would be to vote them. Therefore, it's your contention that you could dismantle the entire wagon on one player and move it to another player? You don't think there would be any issues in doing that?

---

Yes, rc. Hugely in favor of randomizing the order like it should be.

I'm just spitballing. It may be more trouble than it's worth though, as I'm realizing that without day talk the scum are going to have trouble working together on their poker strategy.

---

See, I agree with FA_Q2's 74 except that I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

To put it another way, I'm very reluctant to jump aboard the conclusion that lane is making some sneaky gambit right off the bat like that. I think that's the less likely than he just wanted to make a splash without taking the time to consider it in terms of how it would be perceived.

---

RE: lane's 78

I can see the thought process here more clearly than I can see the scumlane argument.

The scumlane conclusion argues that lane knowingly went all in in an attempt to consolidate funds to the scum team. Reasonable, but it requires that lane came up with a devious and clever strategy to act on immediately. He would necessarily have gotten attention for this bet, which the scumteam had to know. Were they betting (heh) that we would ultimately ignore it? I just think it sounds too complex. It's reasonable, but I don't think it's likely.

Now, lane proposes an interesting counterargument. The MM suggested that the above scumlane argument holds water. He wasn't the original one to propose it, but he is a follower. There's a caveat though. MM called lane's bet. Ergo, what The MM is criticizing lane for he just did himself.

Then again, perhaps MM is that sure that lane is scum that he's willing to gamble all his money in an effort to stop lane from winning. On the other hand, if his hand is weak, he's giving the scum a sizable pot now...

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

---

PS - Bluffing is useless if you don't have any semblance of cred (like a hand won or two).

This is accurate. lane's defensiveness rubs me the wrong way, but I think it's a playstyle thing more than anything.

I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

Playing the newbie card is unnecessary and will detract from your status in my eyes, not improve it.

I'm undecided between thinking this was a scummy move to pass money to scum, or really just a mindless bluff, but I'd think lane's better than that.

Why would you assume the former if you don't know him, however?

I also get a sense that you are trying to have it both ways. These two statements appear to contradict somewhat:

I'd think lane's better than [making a mindless bluff].

I'm convinced [lane] plays dumb

---

It shouldn't matter for today. If Lane loses as he says he will, then it would be the winner we would want to lynch. I'm kind of kicking myself for mentioning the possibility when I did. It might have been more informative to let the hand play out before saying anything.

Yeah, you are definitely my top townread right now.

Persivul's 92 and 93 are basically echoing my thoughts above but in a much more succinct and effective fashion.

I also like qubixes' 98. Good observation.

VOTE: The MM, L-2.

---

Infinity, is there something I'm supposed to respond to in 101? You voting me in that post seems random.

Please elaborate on what hand combination you think would change your view on Lane and what you think is the situation now with your Town Lane read.

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

But only drawing negative conclusions from the scenario is scummy.

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light. I'm asking questions, not creating a false dichotomy. The proper answer here is, "I would've called, but my hand was poor". That's all that needed to be said. Instead of answering me and seeing how I reacted, you took it upon yourself to assume these questions were meant as a trap.

I'm not "only drawing negative conclusions". I'm asking questions and begging consideration for a point of view. I'm not here to hold your hand, MM's hand, lane's hand or anyone else's hand. It's every players responsibility to think for themselves as individuals and respond in kind.

One thing that actually might be productive though is for S_S, Infinity and myself to revisit that one thing all three of us were talking about, just to clear it up. S_S is right in that I did misunderstand Infinity earlier.

As far as I can tell, you think MoI is scum because his case on you is a stretch, but I don't necessarily find stretching to be scummy. I think it could also be a sign of confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read.

Rereading this comment in the context that Infinity actually meant it in, I absolutely agree that stretching is not inherently scummy. That said, I don't feel hesitant to dismiss stretches, especially early on in the game, and be upfront about the fact that I am dismissing them as stretches. Something like that has to be nipped in the bud, especially with a player like MoI. Unfortunately, and as I could've predicted, it didn't placate MoI and, instead, he did what he always does (see: 302) and just turned it into me doing something scummy because he already scumreads me (and this is where your suggestion of confirmation bias probably comes into play, Infinity).

What makes MoI worse is that you and I both know, Infinity, if I hadn't addressed his earlier attacks as stretches, he would've called me out for ignoring him or flying under the radar or some other such offense. As I'm sure you can appreciate, that puts me in a frustrating position.

I don't want this to appear as though I'm being patronizing to him, but I fear it will if only because you aren't privy to our history and the fact that we both know one another and how the other person plays. For that, I hope you can just take my word on, because I can't really "prove" that other than to point you to my wiki. Anyway, I hope that clarifies things a bit more.

Oh and I also just noticed this when I was going through, he made this post in his scum game:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7653124

which brings up the same point he did in this post:

As far as your reasons, going off of 135, you seem to be calling my posts "forced". Well, they kind of are, and, as I often have to begrudgingly admit (I say begrudgingly because it generally gets me in trouble even though it's true), I often do have to "force" myself when I draw town. I don't really enjoy playing town. Indeed, I only play Mafia for the opportunities to play as scum. Paradoxically, I tend to draw a lot of negative attention as town due to being more aggressive and devil-may-care with my posts. As scum, I tend to be much more muted and calculated.

Anyway, that's my meta rebuttal to your vote. Take it how you will.

Although you could say "it's true no matter RC's alignment" it shows at least that RC does not just do that at town, and that it's possible he may feel the need to say that as scum when he does not as town.

It's the same type of "I'm gonna call out this thing I do as scummy so it becomes less scummy" thing he also did when he called his shadow vote opportunistic.

RC, can you point to an example of where you made this type of play as town?

Also, did you re-evaluate anything in particular after you made this post?

Nevermind. Hm, that spat just made the game much more interesting.

Also, do you think shadow is scum or not and why?

[Infinity 324]

I TOLD YOU SO

[Infinity 324]

I TOLD YOU SO

Listen I had thought based on the newb game he played that he was a lot more articulate and able to express himself.
The bumbling, lack of reads, tantrum was reading as flailing around.
The Link wing shared was a completed scum game where he was being voted and didn't act at all like that and was very calm and relaxed.
That's pretty surprising to see from a noob.

Anyways I'm going to have a bigger post late.

In case something happens while I'm gone and a hammer happens I'd like to bring up day 3, briefly.

I was thinking that if Infinity lives he should be given money for the first game win.
If he dies and flips cop, then wingback should receive the first pot to become bulletproof.

Hehe, it's a lot different when you have pressure on you from the start...

Your plan makes sense, if I'm still alive tomorrow it will let me live to get my second result. If not, wingback becomes conf town so yeah.

[Infinity 324]

Well it may have been a bad choice, a lot was unclear for me after the faq2 flip and persivul's ISO was ehh

[Infinity 324]

What do you mean farside?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that definitely makes sense about fire and RC farside.

And yeah wingback, I didn't think about fire claiming roleblocked. I was thinking he was SK so he could use the extra kill to back up his vig claim, but mafia is probably more likely actually.

Fire really just don't have a genuine thought process behind his actions. He said the crux of his argument about mm was that he seemed informed, but only pointed out 1 post that implied that and it was very weak. He also said he was townreading me for my push on him, then changed it to a scumread also for my push on him, and no reason was given. His vig claim was probably to end discussion and get himself townread, and it worked well actually. He also got a claim out of me.

PEdit: Actually farside, in a recently completed game kuribo claimed vig as mafia to get out of a gunsmith guilty and he got away with it completely

[Infinity 324]

I wish you would've responded to my 1308.

There not much I have to say other than the shadow thing. It's more what isn't there than what is there.

I do think Shadow has a good chance at flipping scum, btw. One thing I failed to add was that I see Shadow blindly following farside as a red flag. Shadow is acting very puppet-like. I look for that. I have scum and town reads, but I do not "proxy" my POV except under extreme circumstances. I don't see the atmosphere to do something like that this game, nor do I see Shadow's rationale for doing that. Does this position make sense?

O...k

I think the natural town thing to do was to give what you thought about shadow when you voted him, even if you voted him just to save yourself.

^^ town

Why?

Ugh do I have to explain every time I think a post is town?

I don't think it's something that scum would think to fake, that's it.

RC, can you point to an example of where you made this type of play as town?

You mean my "I hate town" comment?

No, I meant where you openly admit something you do that's scummy (e.g. when you called your vote on shadow "opportunistic").

Re-evaluate? My farside vote was a reevaluation, as is my Shadow vote, frankly.

I mean after where I and fire claimed. You said it made the game more "interesting", did it change any opinions of yours?

[Infinity 324]

It's more what isn't there than what is there.

I don't think it's something that scum would think to fake, that's it.

Sometimes I think you care about this game and sometimes I think you don't.

Dude, I gave my opinion, that's all I can explain. You don't seem to be taking very many solid stances on the game, and meta indicates that you do that as scum more so than town. The farside post is a gut thing, I can't explain it any more than I did.

Which is what I did. You acknowledge this, correct?

But what you said doesn't really tell me what you think about shadow's alignment...

UNVOTE: farside22; VOTE: Shadow_Step

This is mostly an opportunistic vote, but it's also kind of a "better" vote than farside as I forgot that q was on my townie side yesterday, but not really a huge townread. In that sense, I would be more willing to see him go than someone I'm much more confident about like a SS or a lane or a FA.

Let me see if there's anything worth responding to.

I also think that town would've at least tried to re-evaluate some things after the claims, you just called it "interesting" and didn't really say anything about it after that. This is another example where I would've expected you to take a stance on something.

[Infinity 324]

smart how likely do you think this will be a scum flip

[Infinity 324]

Ok, do you think RC and shadow could've been cross-bussing? Cause I don't see it

[Infinity 324]

I think they would be trying to push a CW like farside if that was the case. Or me.

[Infinity 324]

The suspense...

[Infinity 324]

Man I should've trusted my gut on shadow

Anyway fire's claim is confirmed bullshit

It's fire/shadow, let's do it.

VOTE: fire

[Infinity 324]

Shadow what'd you use your money on btw?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, everyone can bet, then I'll raise to a little more, then everyone else can fold.

[Infinity 324]

Why smart instead of shadow?

[Infinity 324]

I didn't investigate shadow, he's just scum because the RC hop looks really bad with his town flip and because of PoE.

You guys are overthinking this. Fire and shadow have been coasting along, voting opportunistically and not giving reason for their reads. The rest of us are clearly at least trying to figure out the game..

I'm worried about scum having a strongman because fire keeps pushing the idea of throwing the money to someone, but I don't see a downside in trying...

Fire, you have no business calling out other people's read progressions when you suddenly started scumreading me yesterday for no apparent reason.

[Infinity 324]

Fire is clever, he found a way to stop his failed push on me and found a way out of proving his big claim at the same time. Doesn't make him any less scum though.

PEdit: and then when I explained my read you didn't pay any attention to it...

PEdit 2: scum wanted to leave their mislynch options open apparently.

PEdit 3: well you haven't been coasting as much as shadow I guess

[Infinity 324]

You came up with an explanation for both you not shooting and for me being town based on your claim.

And also I made a whole case on mm but everyone just ignored it and continued on.

PEdit: wingback convinced me you could be mafia yesterday, didn't really think about mafia claiming vig but that seems to be what's happening

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

I think scum!mm would just make a more defined reads list instead of having to rely on his explanation.

Infinity. Why is the mm town then? Why do you townread him?

He seems like frazzled noob town the whole game and has been going against the flow mainly. He seems to believe what he says.

I don't like the term "frazzled" for some reason. Going against the flow is kind of in my personality, especially when the flow is dictated by other people.
Also, the only people with no reason to believe what they say are lying scum. Townies only lie for gambits, and even then that's pretty horrid.

I don't think scum!mm would have questioned my townread on him here.

Need to voice my disapproval in at least one way: VOTE: Lane

Feels town to me

This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.
I was sure to only need to take one guy's money because of my own habits when I create such game systems, which is basically me screwing myself over, but whatever. I sure hope Kappy folds, at least this entire thing will have harmed the least people possible and I still get 1k$ until some people decide it's a great idea to lynch me.

This is really towny, not seeing scum faking this thought process at all.

(To all of you who say "yay finally MM writes town or scum in a read yay", screw you.)

Not caring what other people think of him, scum would try to blend in more.

We're both being sensible. Except for now you're voting me when we should be voting MM.

And how so? You're not just thinking of brutalizing people into voting someone else without presenting evidence, are you?

Frustration with being voted for no reason looks town

Lane looks like in the middle of a meltdown that is so incredibly stupid I can't get a true read on him because he pushes for my lynch like his life depends on it. Which makes no fucking sense.

Another very town thought process, scum wouldn't care about how hard to read someone is.

Lynching me is wasting the Tracker shot. This is complete and utter town sabotage, since the Tracker shot isn't given to anyone. This entire plan is dumbnut.

Really? So you're completely writing off the possibility for the mm scum as well. Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. The mm can't possibly be scum. The only explanation is he must be mislynch bait. What the fuck? There are several reasons he should be lynched. Love how he's one of the leading wagons all day yesterday and all of a sudden hes lynch bait.

All your monies are belong to me, which ofc would make me lynch bait because scum wants the power roles dead. It's one of the few cases where

town wins nothing

. As for your several reasons I should be lynched, your dumbassery doesn't count as a reason, me having the Tracker shot is a reason NOT TO LYNCH ME, and of course I've been making the fire wagon, so you're relying too much on fire not to be scum.

The conviction here is more likely to come from town, scum would try to just try to make better arguments to convince people instead of trying to fake a rage fit.

1060 just makes no sense from a scum perspective, though it is obviously confirmation biased and biased from personal issues that mm has with FA.

Basically MM says what he thinks and doesn't care about what other people think. His thoughts and emotions are towny and would be very hard to fake. I don't see anything mm does as scum-motivated, except maybe that he doesn't give clearly defined reads.

[Infinity 324]

Can we just lynch this already

No way you're suddenly convinced that slot is town

[Infinity 324]

Ok we can massclaim and organize the poker hand.

Then we should lynch fire or shadow.

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, why was smart's 180 weird, and not farside's or FIRE'S??

PEdit: hmm JK seems awfully convenient for scum...

[Infinity 324]

Shadow were/are you planning to JK scum or town?

[Infinity 324]

No, then you'll just NK me so I don't get another result...

PEdit: I'm trying to see shadow's thought process but maybe you're right

[Infinity 324]

Everyone claimed except for mathblade

Odd-night cop + 8 VT's vs. 2 scum? Kind of an odd setup but could be balanced

[Infinity 324]

You can't buy an ability that has already been bought, so...

Also scum may be able to get powers too so that kinda balances things

[Infinity 324]

What's up mathblade, can you not tunnel on town this game

The reason people are betting is because we want to give our money to someone to make them BP (that's what happens when you win the only hand in the day phase). I think I should get the BP since I'm an odd-night cop so I'll get another result tonight if I live.

Do you have a role other than the tracker thing you got or were you originally VT?

PEdit: I'm assuming math hadn't read the game yet lol

[Infinity 324]

Lane and mathblade, calm down. Town getting riled up is a great way for scum to win.

Mathblade, you're wrong about lane but right about fire. Lane's post wasn't a scum slip, I don't see what you're talking about. And if lane wanted to give money to fire, fire would've just called him.

Lane, I don't know why mathblade is still alive but killing confirmed town makes sense no matter who scum is.

[Infinity 324]

uuuuugh come on guys

[Infinity 324]

Take a deep breath farside, and take a break. There's no way we can win this if people keep insulting each other and refusing to cooperate.

PEdit: -_-

[Infinity 324]

*sigh*

Can we at least agree that I should get BP?

[Infinity 324]

Raise $401

No one call please

[Infinity 324]

Fire is "saving the shot" because he's scum and he doesn't have one.

No one got a BP on d1 because we wanted to get a couple power roles going, I believe.

[Infinity 324]

Speaking of massclaim, we just massclaimed and there are no PR's other than us two.

If you said the scum shot disappeared, no doctor would basically confirm you as scum.

I'd be fine with lynching shadow today and forcing fire to prove his shot again, but then he can just claim roleblocked...

[Infinity 324]

If you said you shot me and there was no other scum kill, and no one claimed doc, that would be very suspicious.

Idk why you didn't NK me but I wasn't exactly conf town

[Infinity 324]

Well first of all you said lane should get the BP not me which is suspicious in and of itself

And I feel you might have a strongman or smth by the way you kept pushing for the money-dumping plan

PEdit: yeah but it still looks pretty suspicious.

[Infinity 324]

Well first of all you said lane should get the BP not me which is suspicious in and of itself

And I feel you might have a strongman or smth by the way you kept pushing for the money-dumping plan

PEdit: yeah but it still looks pretty suspicious.

I have literally been pushing for money on anyone but me, how in the hell are you scumreading me for my money plan. When I have never once pushed the idea for me to get items or money.

You are beyond ridiculous.

I am not going to say I have been the most town person this whole game, but that plan alone was the most townie thing in this game, and to you too twist it to call it part of some masterplan is beyond me.

Not saying pushing the plan was scummy, but it's still possible from scum, especially if there's a strongman.

[Infinity 324]

@infinity, fire is probably just stubborn town.

Look over his ISO and look at his read progressions. They don't make sense.

Meanwhile, the other scum...

What do people think about my points against MM/FA? I thought they were pretty noteworthy but people seem to just be ignoring them.

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

Were you scum reading MM based on their interactions only or anything else?

[Infinity 324]

[Infinity 324]

Because wingback was conf town.

[Infinity 324]

So what?
The fear of being tracked is not more than having a conf town in the game ?

Yeah

Think about it this way, since fire claimed vig he had an out if he was tracked to a kill (not in the case of wingback, but still). So he's unlikely to be tracked. So he could do the kill and not be scared of a tracker.

In general a 1-shot track is not the scariest thing in the world for scum.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm?

[Infinity 324]

Infinity bear with me phone posting

An assassin walks into town and calls you all out to play a poker game with me.
Are you all yellow or what?

This post here is either a crumb for a vig or a crumb of scum faking vig and I don't know which.

You mean the "assassin" part? I think that comes from his name...

PEdit: Fire didn't say he would shoot until d2. So that's kind of irrelevant

[Infinity 324]

Titus...fire already claimed...

[Infinity 324]

We can just wait out these hands cause if someone wins I don't get BP

[Infinity 324]

Raise $201

I guess...

catching up now

[Infinity 324]

okay I need a quick look at this. I feel certain that Smart is scum. I know I said that about RC and FAQ.
But seriously the dude has no cases, no scum reads other then me and the engagement most of the game is lack luster at best.

I liked his play d1 though. It's true he hasn't done that much since then, but I think he was away for some time and I get the impression he's trying to figure stuff out.

You are town reading Mathblade but I'm a bit unsure can you explain why these things read town to you?

Ehh

Last game me and math played together we were both town, and they tunneled on me and weren't very logical iirc (sorry math)

Honestly after mini 1800 I've given up on trying to read math, but mm was so towny that I'm comforable with calling that slot town

Now as potential scum with an odd night cop and a vig why would scum need a tracker? Keep in mind in a Math!scum world one of these have to be town. (Granted the math scum world is stupid but...) Why the hell would MM not buy something more useful?

Yeah I think they would buy like a JK or something

*cough* shadow *cough*

[Infinity 324]

You can't commute and kill at the same time lol

Do you still think I'm scum or did you drop that read for no good reason?

[Infinity 324]

You can't commute and kill at the same time lol

Do you still think I'm scum or did you drop that read for no good reason?

Have you been skimming my posts?
I've already said you're dumb and not likely scum.
Based on interactions I'm feeling it's Smart and Mathblade.

Well you said I was stupid here

If I was the vig I would have shot Infinity 10 times over for being stupid.

If scum win this you should get the MVP award.

But you never mentioned that I wasn't likely to be scum...

This or fire, guys.

[Infinity 324]

Why not FA/shadow

[Infinity 324]

Well shadow was the only one that would have the money, he could be fakeclaiming buying JK but I believe him and it can be tested.

[Infinity 324]

You can't commute and kill at the same time lol

Do you still think I'm scum or did you drop that read for no good reason?

Have you been skimming my posts?
I've already said you're dumb and not likely scum.
Based on interactions I'm feeling it's Smart and Mathblade.

Well you said I was stupid here

If I was the vig I would have shot Infinity 10 times over for being stupid.

If scum win this you should get the MVP award.

But you never mentioned that I wasn't likely to be scum...

This or fire, guys.

I've obviously implied it when I talk about the MVP award.

Seriously take your tinted glasses off

Ok, you implied it BUT YOU NEVER GAVE A REASON

ffs

Well shadow was the only one that would have the money, he could be fakeclaiming buying JK but I believe him and it can be tested.

How? If he was scum and bought daychat as I think scum would, then if their partner was lying about their claim as one of the PRs I believe is, all they have to do is say "roleblocked" and then Smart makes the kill.

If he bet all his money, we would see how much he had left and therefore how much he used.

I disagree that scum would necessarily want daychat, JK would be pretty useful as well and shadow had enough money for either.

[Infinity 324]

I think titus is just stalling the hands at this point which is fine

I'm just saying in theory it's a bad idea to lie about which power you bought b/c it's provable.

[Infinity 324]

That's true...

[Infinity 324]

Well mathblade isn't conftown but it's unlikely scum would get tracker

But I guess mm could've taken it to look town

[Infinity 324]

Ehhh

Scum aren't

that

worried about the track

[Infinity 324]

If scum!mm got tracker, it was probably to look town (or maybe use it for himself), but I'm not sure he would think about how it could be confirmed. So I think getting tracker makes it more likely for that slot to be town.

Don't see how mm could have been scum with that play though

[Infinity 324]

If scum!mm got tracker, it was probably to look town (or maybe use it for himself), but I'm not sure he would think about how it could be confirmed. So I think getting tracker makes it more likely for that slot to be town.

Don't see how mm could have been scum with that play though

You don't think scum would take the ability to keep it out of town hands?

I doubt scum are that scared of tracker

[Infinity 324]

Still here...

raise $251

[Infinity 324]

Ughh this game

Still think smart is town. I really liked his d1 play, and not doing much since then is pretty much NAI. I also liked his reaction to pressure, the dream thing for example doesn't confirm him as town but saying it does reads as town to me.

I don't want to overlap with mathblade, but I also don't think they should say their track target beforehand so not sure how to go about that.

If there's only one kill tomorrow you guys better fucking lynch fire.

[Infinity 324]

Well if it's only you then shadow could've JKed scum or the kill target but shadow is scum so no.

And I guess the best play is to not announce my investigative target so scum don't know you were working off that, as weird as it sounds

I hope we don't overlap

[Infinity 324]

By the way, I don't want a no lynch because that puts us into evens and fire is scum.

[Infinity 324]

So I guess I'll hammer smart at deadline, butt not happy about it

I certainly don't see a world where both fire and smart are town, so we'll at least get another day

[Infinity 324]

But the fact that no one else is pushing shadow today when RC was the counterwagon to him yesterday is just

[Infinity 324]

Tracker does nothing if scum know who it's targeting.

[Infinity 324]

If I claim my target, scum will know to have them make the kill.

If math claims to track shadow, shadow just won't JK. I guess I'm not opposed to that though, cause it guarantees I'll get a result. But if I get no result that would confirm shadow as scum...

I guess shadow could block theoretical town-fire, but eh. I'm not really worried about that case...

The main reasons I'm reading smart as town is by PoE, cause I have a hard time seeing shadow or fire as town. Him not doing much since d1 isn't really AI, like I said before.

[Infinity 324]

Fire is scum because his read progressions don't make sense, and he doesn't seem to have reasons to back them up.

Shadow is scum because he's been active lurking, opportunistically voted RC and RC was the counterwagon to him.

[Infinity 324]

Lol

[Infinity 324]

Also

I don't recall a single reason shadow gave for voting RC that wasn't "he said this argument was TvT"

PEdit: scum could've thought I was a possible mislynch given the weird claim

[Infinity 324]

Tracker doesn't confirm anyone if you tell scum who you're targeting...

Shadow is confirmed scum if he roleblocks me.

[Infinity 324]

^ this

Scum don't have a roleblocker. If someone is roleblocked shadow is confirmed scum. So shadow doesn't really need to be tracked for JK anyway, so math should try to catch someone making the kill.

I doubt smart is scum, but I'll hammer him to avoid a no lynch I guess.

[Infinity 324]

^ this

Scum don't have a roleblocker. If someone is roleblocked shadow is confirmed scum. So shadow doesn't really need to be tracked for JK anyway, so math should try to catch someone making the kill.

I doubt smart is scum, but I'll hammer him to avoid a no lynch I guess.

How do you know scum don't have a roleblocker?

Even with 2 PRs it wouldn't make much sense, with 1 just no. There's just not enough town for for an RB to be necessary/useful.

Tracker doesn't confirm anyone if you tell scum who you're targeting...

Shadow is confirmed scum if he roleblocks me.

Yes, but unless Math tracks him, the only person who will know that is you.

True

I'd rather have 2 different results that are less reliable than one that is very reliable imo.

Infinity, do you see my logic behind NL?

If fire is town, it keeps us in odds...I just don't see fire as town.

Am I missing something?

PEdit: wtf shadow? You think rb makes sense in this setup?

[Infinity 324]

I don't know what scum have. I know roleblocker doesn't make sense. With 3 strong power roles it makes sense. Even if fire is somehow telling the truth, roleblocker wouldn't make sense in this setup.

[Infinity 324]

That was waaay to quick of a jump for someone who thought I was dumb town before

something something read progressions something something

[Infinity 324]

I don't know what scum have. I know roleblocker doesn't make sense. With 3 strong power roles it makes sense. Even if fire is somehow telling the truth, roleblocker wouldn't make sense in this setup.

Cop, vig, tracker. Mind telling me which of these isn't "strong"

I didn't really take into consideration the poker abilities, but tbh that makes it even less likely there is a roleblocker.

If there was an rb, that would directly counter whenever anyone got a poker ability, making them useless for town. And scum could still NK whoever they wanted. Then of course, the other power roles would be safe, but good luck finding them and catching them on the right night.

Plus scum can get the abilities too, so that kind of balances things.

[Infinity 324]

Well, it makes it so town-Fire has no reason not to shoot. So either Fire shoots and is confirmed, and the game continues even if he misses, or he doesn't and is confirmed scum.

I don't see you, fire, and whoever fire shoots all as town.

I'm willing to risk that for narrowing the lynch pool.

I mean you do realize this is what I'm talking about to clear players and find scum and unless you think Titus or myself is scum INFINITY THIS IS DIRECTED TO YOU, my idea has the most chance of confirming players and finding scum.

I'm basically sheeping you until I get data.

Is what i suggested flawed.

Fire shots math
Infinity cops shadow
Math tracks Shadow.
Shadow jk either you or me.

This forces scum to either no kill if Fire is town and math is town
Scum to shot someone that is being scum read but is town

I really don't want shadow to JK, then there's an explanation for only 1 kill.

If we annouce we're tracking him, his buddy can just do the kill

For this plan to fail is if Fire and Shadow are scum together which no one has explained that association

How about fire voting shadow for weak reasons yesterday and not touching the slot today?

There doesn't even need to be an association. Everyone else is towny enough and they're scummy enough.

[Infinity 324]

You will have to do some hard conviencing that smart is town because right now I don't see why scum Shadow wouldn't just fucking hammer at this point.

Scum shadow figures if he makes one more opportunistic as fuck vote, maybe people will start thinking he's scum

Your case of "smart has no case" is almost as bad as smart's non-case itself. He hasn't been putting as much effort into the game since d1, that doesn't mean he's scum.

[Infinity 324]

You said you didn't like how he was calling you scum for pushing a mislynch on RC, though I disagree it's NAI.

Everything else is basically related to the fact that he didn't do much since d1, which is also NAI.

I'm not seeing it.

[Infinity 324]

No you didn't, you JK'ed me.

VOTE: shadow

shadow/fire guys

zzzz

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: on the off chance that scum have an rb

[Infinity 324]

I got no result, so the most likely explanation is that shadow blocked me. That means there's no explanation for only 1 kill other than you being scum.

It's still possible that scum have a roleblocker, but very unlikely for setup reasons.

Who was your target last night?

[Infinity 324]

I think your vig target was no one

I think you'd claim a shot on math

[Infinity 324]

Shit, I forgot to buy an ability last night

[Infinity 324]

I think you're scum, but I think you would say you shot math.

I don't think I can buy actions during the day

[Infinity 324]

Is it lylo?

[Infinity 324]

I didn't, I lied about being a 1 shot vigi, and threatened players in order to see if scum would NK me based on who I was suggesting to NK.
I shot nobody, I never had a gun.

My bad.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I don't buy that.

[Infinity 324]

Well it helps that I'm reading everyone else at town, but not really. Also shadow is basically confscum to me

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how you guys think 9:2 mountainous is balanced, poker abilities are only a slight boost to town since scum can get them too.

[Infinity 324]

You're town because the slot before you basically said whatever came to his mind the whole game and that's almost impossible to do as scum without looking super scummy.

[Infinity 324]

Oh whoops

[Infinity 324]

I assumed it was lylo I just didn't see it in the mod's post lol

Why am I scum

[Infinity 324]

So would you be willing to lynch shadow today?

PEdit: Yeah but I don't want to risk anything. Also how 9:2 mountainous as balanced even with the poker abilities??

[Infinity 324]

Infinity: You had a scum read on Shadow on day 2, but after the RC wagon flipped town you didn't really go back to that scum read and instead focus on Fire, I'm wondering what happened with your read on Shadow and why no push on him after?

I pretty much knew it was shadow/fire since the beginning of d3, I was more sure on fire at the time but I wanted shadow dead too.

1-shot roleblocker makes a little bit of sense actually, because if there was a strongman I would probably be dead...I need to think about this more but most likely shadow is just scum either way.

[Infinity 324]

Oh shit

I need to get my head in this game

[Infinity 324]

Gonna do some serious rereading tonight/tomorrow because that changes a lot

Shadow is probably still scum though, cause I think if scum had a 1-shot rb they would've used it already.

[Infinity 324]

I'm so sorry fire for tunneling you the entire game lol

[Infinity 324]

Titus

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: farside

[Infinity 324]

<3

[Infinity 324]

Both you and farside suspected our slots at some point in the game

[Infinity 324]

Uhhh

Basically I wanted to claim something on shadow. Inno would look too suspicious, guilty was basically guaranteed to get him lynched. If you claimed to have shot someone, then that would implicate you as well (since shadow can't jk 2 people) and maybe get you mislynched. I guess.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I basically had no idea what I was doing, this is my second scum game ever on the site and night action shit was really complicated

[Infinity 324]

I'm very suprised shadow didn't get lynched d3, I thought for sure I had to bus him

[Infinity 324]

farside needs to trust her gut

[Infinity 324]

I'm really sorry it sucked for you fire, I hope it's nothing personal.

[Infinity 324]

Shadow why'd you kill BBT? (I was away when he made the decision). I would've killed farside probably

[Infinity 324]

Why I did what I did from d2 on:

I was planning to claim 2-shot hider, and that's why I crumbed the clear on wingback because he was someone probably, but not assuredly, town from town!me perspective. When fire claimed vig I started to freak out. I claimed cop to try and try a counterclaim, or to try and scare fire off me. When neither of those worked, I decided to start bussing as hard as I could to distance shadow from me. Then fire came back, seemed to be re-evaluating, and said he wanted to vig about a third of the game. I decided to just bank that he wouldn't shoot me at that point. So I had farside convince me to vote RC. Since I had already confirmed wingback, and his theory was fire + RC or infinity + shadow, we decided to kill him before he could push us as the scumteam. Then, I didn't really have an excuse not to scumread shadow, because I had said the day before I would scumread shadow if RC flipped town. This is when town started not to play so well, you guys were kind of destroying yourselves and I decided not to interfere. I was surprised shadow didn't get more heat being the second biggest wagon on d2 and the counterwagon to RC. I decided to keep my scumreads and stall the day out until town inevitably got lynched. Farside gave me the idea of myself getting the BP, that way it wouldn't raise suspicion when I stayed alive. N3 was a tough one, you can kinda see my thought process in the mafia PT. Basically, I wanted to claim a result on shadow (perhaps guilty on fire was better) and inno looked too suspicious, while guilty would basically guarantee a shadow lynch. If me and fire both claimed roleblocked, I thought I had a good chance of lynching fire on d4. (Shadow couldn't have protected the kill from town's perspective if I was town since I claimed roleblocked). We considered JKing vs. not JKing fire, at first I wanted to go for the win, but after shadow's hammer and smart townflip we were worried fire would shoot shadow. So we decided to have shadow JK fire and shoot math to get rid of the tracker results and frame fire.

I was a 1-shot strongman.

gg

[Infinity 324]

I can't believe anyone scum read me this game
I mean seriously.

Me neither tbh

[Infinity 324]

Oh I strongmanned the n2 kill in case I died, plus if there were protectives they would've been on wingback.

Kudos to wingback and smart for having good reads.

I have a lot to learn

[Infinity 324]

I thought it wouldn't raise concerns since he was confirmed town

Though it's kinda funny how town analyzed it and came to the conclusion that we were town ("why didn't math die?" "why didn't fire die?")

[Infinity 324]

Thanks.

I found it odd that scum fakeclaiming inno on a townie wasn't a likely possibility in your mind: is that rare on the site you come from? In my experience scum fakeclaiming cop do that all the time.

Dead thread said we should've changed reads more often, I didn't feel like I had justification to do that given my strong townreads on farside, smart, math slot, and titus slot from previous days.

[Infinity 324]

I love being scum but its very stressful at times.
I still have a lot to learn and I don't think I played too well in this game.
Anyway. Thanks for modding Alchemist and wguerts (y)

QFT

[Infinity 324]

The PT was locked anyway though

[Infinity 324]

np

To be fair this game was a bit of a special case wrt bussing...

[Infinity 324]

@Titus: By the way, if you had asked me why my play was so different from gunslingers, I would've struggled to answer. (I know you weren't really caught up...but still)