Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[morph the cat]

Damn your favorite post was spay not me.


Rude.

[morph the cat]

a day 1 pass.

The morphisms. They go on and on and on.

[morph the cat]

Regardless of whether you are town or scum, I will concede that I like your terminology.

Day X pass is pretty good.

We ought to make a list. There's a ton of little things we have introduced into the cultural dictionary here that we are proud of.


My recent favorite is polonium tea.

[morph the cat]

Yes but lazy.

Anyways I'm in that boat that literally every town player ever is in which is that I feel like I SHOULD be obviously town from the outside looking in but I also get to live inside my head. Nobody else can stand it in here.

[morph the cat]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

[morph the cat]

As in which post of fua's gave you the cop vibe?

Wanna know the best part of locktowning Tammyguin, Ceph?

My you-read is outsourced to somebody better at it!

Just so you know I had major wiggins when I saw this post whenever I skimmed. Until I talked to penguin and she said she had him pegged in bloodstained, and that made sense.

Swear to Arceus she is a ceph whisperer.

[morph the cat]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

When it comes?

I don't know. Mafia is hard.

But will it be coming round the mountain when it does?

[morph the cat]

it is difficult to calm my kneejerk reaction of townreading to shirou's self-conscious posts.

I just noticed your avatar likely has teeth if steel or needs a lot of dental work about two seconds after the snapshot he's in. Ouch.

[morph the cat]

Tammy when y'all gonna get around to finalizing a read on us? Kthnx

When it comes?

I don't know. Mafia is hard.

But will it be coming round the mountain when it does?

heh

we have a read on you guys; it's just not locked.

Then I declare complete and utter victory in this new arms race.

[morph the cat]

Ffery just gave away the farm.

It's about her attitude at potentially being dead weight.

why did she do this? it seems out of character.

Hah yeah she even apologized to me after she put it out there but oh well. Can't unsee it.

[morph the cat]

I'm mobile but pretend I put an adorable baby turtle picture here with a thumbs up.

[morph the cat]

Ffery just gave away the farm.

It's about her attitude at potentially being dead weight.

why did she do this? it seems out of character.

pooky figured it out. I'll have to work on it. I don't think it will be ~that~ easy to extinguish, at least in the near term.

[morph the cat]

without committing to stances of the situations.

Which is precisely what I called him on yesterday. And instead of addressing the actual issue he implied I was unreasonable to expect him to answer my question within 8 hours.

[morph the cat]

Cephrir goes here too. Town read, instinct over case.

Yeah. This is where I'm at as well. Not a solid town read, but still town.

I did really like NSG's re-entry. Coming in and upending a popularly accepted town read would be extraordinarily gutsy for scum and showed a lot of independent though for town (in the non-condescending way). Reversal on the read for me.

Same, though I wanted (maybe still want) time to percolate on it.

I know Shirou wanted folks to comment, but that really moved the needle more drastically for NSG than for Shirou.

I find his trying to stitch us and imaginality together to be kinda obnoxious. I misread his level of experience from his early posts, and was already thinking I might have towned him too hard on that basis when NSG made her posts.

I've also liked imaginality's posts and fallen off on implosion from where I felt I was a couple days ago. Tammy wants to talk about implosion when we're both awake tomorrow, and I'm fading fast.

I didn't like some of his early posts. stuff he's posted in the last 24 hours or so under mounting pressure, I have liked. And I don't really understand why that wagon blew up the way it did.

I'm spinning my wheels over my implosion read. Eventually I'll get some traction. I hope.

I looked at redtea's new content and I don't see anything to townread. Nothing from town motivation. Even the stuff under the spoiler tag is all commentary on exchanges without committing to stances of the situations. Probably looking to vote there once I talk to Tammy and consider how the imaginality wagon formed.

This we'd probably both support fwiw.

I'm hitting work hard in the morning, so more likely I'm around in the afternoon


--PA

I'm curious if Tammy has played with implosion more recently than I have. Also GuiltyLion. I have him at leantown, but it's based on wisps, mostly.

Both of them are consuming way too much of my headspace about this game.

[morph the cat]

Okay I swear, last off topic post for now. You get your own wiki page, right? You could use that.

We prefer to release our morphisms like butterflies in the MS garden and see where they flit.

fortunately(?) this is not a game for morphoglyphics so at least we're not inflicting

that

on the table.

Did you get what you were hoping to get from this convo?

[morph the cat]

are you intending to use morphism as a category theory joke :X

Intending?

No.

[morph the cat]

Okay I swear, last off topic post for now. You get your own wiki page, right? You could use that.

We prefer to release our morphisms like butterflies in the MS garden and see where they flit.

fortunately(?) this is not a game for morphoglyphics so at least we're not inflicting

that

on the table.

Did you get what you were hoping to get from this convo?

I'm getting pretty close to edible and pass out mindset myself in that my brain is currently working at 1% power. As for what I was hoping for? Nothing in particular really. More interactions with my slot are nice since I can trust that at least one person within the interaction is town. I'll think over your slot more as the game progresses but for the moment I think my opinion remains the same.

Also I should probably sleep within the next hour or two.

I still like the day pass term.

That's interesting. You made a point of asking if we'd be around to interact with, but from my perspective what you wanted to talk about wasn't terribly this-game-oriented and didn't seem to be at all geared toward gleaning more alignment indicative info from us.

[morph the cat]

I didn't very much have a particular point of contention with you I wanted to discuss. I was hoping something would come up naturally, in hindsight that may have been my fault.

I'm confused, but ok?

I figured you were going to want to know more about our reads, or what we thought of an event(s) in the game. I reacted and asked that we all slow down when you put Imaginality at E-1. That seems like something you might have wanted to probe.

[morph the cat]

GL is north of null for me now, I think.

It's kinda wild how much this game has thrown me back into dedede-land. GL was town. TammyCeph hydra was town as fuck (and what trip that was, having Ceph as near-lock-town), Implosion was scum. Also, WhenWarthogsFly was such a great hydra name and that avatar was fire.

I think the player who reminds me most of their play in that game is Ceph,and I don't know if that really justifies a town read, but it's where I'm at.

I'm going to try to get my head out of the past today. I'm feeling a lot better than yesterday, so far anyway.

54 page reread starts now.

[morph the cat]

may i inquire about your motivation for rereading and/or what prompted it?

A combination of things.

Wanting to reread based on the lens of NSG's thoughts, because I think that will help both in understanding other players, and in terms of seeing how I feel about her perspective. I think her perspective is kind hard to refute where it's meta-based on players I'm not familiar with. I dislike dipping into cold meta and I hope I don't need to do much of that this game.

I want to widen my intake of the early days. Especially some of the bits that my eyes glazed over initially.

And over the last 48 hours I haven't been gleaning enough from what's been posted. yesterday was particularly awful, and I wound up doing more in-the-moment than integrating all the stances and arguments into a cohesive sense of the game.

I usually do my first reread when a game hits 20-30 pages depending on density. The data's been pretty dense in this game so far, with some notable exceptions.

[morph the cat]

ok thx

Do you still have concerns about morph and if so is it still underwhelming?

yeah they still havent impressed me

i asked this question because i was wondering if they were trying to generate content survivalistically in response to reads on them falling

Heh.

I was about to post a wall, too.

[morph the cat]

But on a not-heh level I don't appreciate getting slagged for trying to get my head back into the game.

[morph the cat]

I took it as a jerkish comment. Like you're trying to shut me off preemptively, like you didn't want me to do things out loud because you KNOW that when I take a can-opener to my skull and put my thoughts about the game out there, players' reads of me get better.

[morph the cat]

And you just disappear leaving that stinkbomb in the thread.

[morph the cat]

like you didn't want me to do things out loud because you KNOW that when I take a can-opener to my skull and put my thoughts about the game out there, players' reads of me get better.

of course i want you to do that, i want to read you better

i dont think i would do something like this intentionally anyway

You want it, but you preemptively question if it's survivalistic. If town-you is concerned it might be, then why telegraph to me you're thinking that way rather than just weighing up the content when it happens?

[morph the cat]

i found your answer satisfying enough and wouldnt have mentioned it again if i wasnt asked about it

I'll take this at face value for now.

[morph the cat]

i town

amazonian is a little towny

Anyway. Ydrasse also kinda town i think.

@Implosion I'm probably rehashing shit, but I'm curious what about Ydra's 2 post have you a page 2 townlean on her. (I see that by page 10, only one player commented on this)

Going back through Shirou's feels about non-signing hydras here. It bugs me a little more than it did initially. I was more in the mode of giving expectation-setting info about how we work together than in discerning alignment at that point. 42 didn't feel like an RVS vote, but c'mon. "Hydra doesn't sign -- vote: hydra"? I realize I'm probably confibiasing due to shirou's push. And I have issues with the POE characterization of his last post. But, I really dig into this so bear with me and maybe discount the salt. He was one of my first townreads. I wouldn't be shocked that I grossly misread him, but I would be surprised and disappointed in myself.

And yeah that's also why I called Ceph's opening town. It didn't feel like it had a deep impending sense of dread that was being held behind a thin veneer.

My eyebrows kinda raised at this post initially, but the Team Mafia mod experience made sense of it. I saw something similar in the Shakespeare game. He mostly kept those feels in the mafia thread, though, and to the extent they bled out into the game (minimally IMO) it wasn't the bulk of why he was being scumread by some players.

whom among us has not spent hours pouring through fferyllt's wiki page searching for clues to the mysteries of life

VOTE: implosion

It's a pity I haven't updated it since ~2017

Interesting. Wonder if Cabd agrees.

Cabd --> me
ffery --> Tammy
Cabd --> Tammy
ffery --> me

--PA

Was there a reason why you'd think he might disagree?

The giggle is because spay pretty much INTRODUCED the term "trajectory" into the mafiascum lexicon.

oh, I thought her title was solely because she was really good on reading people by their trajectory or something, but it seems she also introduced the term to the forum hm...

interesting

How and why was it interesting?

Also, nice to see you NSG! It's been a very, very long time!

it has! well, it has either way, but it may also be possible that i've played with you (via secret alt) more recently than you think you've played with me. either way, cool to be in a game with so many familiar faces

With which head? Both? I don't mind looking for needles in haystacks, but I kinda like knowing where the haystack is!

I have two recent games with GL, the first of which we were both town and he was very much the only person keeping me sane in the game and the second of which he was scum and absolutely snowed everyone especially me. So i certainly fear him but also will maybe know better this time.

Noting this because I'm curious how this caution/fear has manifested since then.

hmmm Shriou, how excited would you say you are to play this game? How much forum mafia experience do you have ultimately?

Hey PA! I am not sure, having just spent several weeks dealing with her scum game I'm hoping to feel it out tone/vibewise if she's different. I don't have a great sense of Ydra meta but I guess if she's town I'd expect her to work a tiny bit harder than she just did in the Dance game to show some solvey thought processes?

This is kinda where my head was at re Shirou's experience. The approach to hydrae seemed kind of naïve when it hit the thread, but the replies suggested otherwise, and the approach -- ignoring lots of the obvious signs regarding who makes a post out of principle(?) is a convenient way to ignore inconvenient data. And as I said, if I think it matters which of us makes a particular post, I'll make my authorship clear without stooping to an "~f"

...really? i had the opposite take and thought amazonian was townier because of the 'challenge' or threat they presented in their first posts.

like morph is probably the most boppable player(s) around at the moment and when you combine that with familiarity it's pretty uh... bold to make your first interaction "if you try to push us we WILL get you killed next day by virtue of our death" which doesn't really seem conciliatory at all but more like "fuck with us and regret it"

which, if there are people around that know you, seems like a bad idea to call attention to that sort of thing instantly.

I dunno, my take is that if it's the kinda thing you think you would do as town then it's the kind of thing you need to bluster about similarly as scum, and they wasted basically no time whatsoever immediately trying to establish "scumreading me is a scumclaim from you" which just felt a lil over the top for how early it was and how they initiated it. Like I said though, if it's out of the ordinary and potentially scum-indicative from them I'd expect morph to pick up on that and so I want to weigh their opinion a bit more than my own, it could entirely just be me as a third party not understanding the nature of their relationship with eachother

I bristled at PA's post a little, hence reminding her BoP goes both ways. Partially because a facetious page 1 post seemed to strike a sensitive spot, and partially because hell yes I expect PA to correctly read Cabd, just as much as I'll trust his read of her in this hydra.

i can identify who shirou is on sight regardless of account, it's happened 100% of the time

Do you agree with his comments about the quantity of his recent games? Has he played on alts since his hiatus? I wouldn't really expect him to lie about how active he's been, but there was a sort of an "aw shucks" feel to his comments about being less intense since returning.

I liked number's 139 and I still do.

actually this is important and I only realized it now so I've to ask

@catboi is voting for "no elimination" a possibility for an early day end?

What were you thinking could be an advantage to doing this over having a flip and a bunch of trajectories to analyze?

so 238 essentially just says "hey look everyone i have handwritten notes" since there is no actual reason for it to exist.

I'm curious why you assumed the notes were handwritten?

--------------------

My recollection is that at this point in the game I was feeling squinty-eyed about fua. That dissipated pretty quickly with more data, but I understand the suspicion that swirled for a bit over his entrance.

Tejate's posting at the page 10 point also bugged me a little, but there's a cheeky feel to his reaction to being scumread that I kinda like. But he also seemed kinda too self-referential - like that's bulk of his early-early posting.

[morph the cat]

I'm curious why you assumed the notes were handwritten?

i didn't mean that bit literally; was just calling back to when titus did this as it's where my head went.

It seemed to be an aspect of scumreading Tejate? Or suspecting him at least.

[morph the cat]

We've had townreads all along, though? And have posted some of them, as well as comments about when reads are moving up or down.

I realize we're probably not throwing read updates out as frequently, but that's a factor of real life for both of us. When we're both feeling solid about the game again, we'll post a list we're ready to roll with.

In the meantime it would have been nice if we'd intersected in the thread often enough to hold an actual conversation and dig into reads, but that wasn't in the cards.

Originally I was holding some reads back to see how players reacted. And a post like that when I was holding some reads a little closely, would have felt right at home.

I don't know what you need to do, or what we need to do for you to have the data you need to get more certain about us, but I'm here and if you have questions I'm happy to answer. So far your posts about/to us have mostly been observations, and there's only so much I can do with that.

[morph the cat]

We've had townreads all along, though? And have posted some of them, as well as comments about when reads are moving up or down.

I realize we're probably not throwing read updates out as frequently, but that's a factor of real life for both of us. When we're both feeling solid about the game again, we'll post a list we're ready to roll with.

In the meantime it would have been nice if we'd intersected in the thread often enough to hold an actual conversation and dig into reads, but that wasn't in the cards.

Originally I was holding some reads back to see how players reacted. And a post like that when I was holding some reads a little closely, would have felt right at home.

I don't know what you need to do, or what we need to do for you to have the data you need to get more certain about us, but I'm here and if you have questions I'm happy to answer. So far your posts about/to us have mostly been observations, and there's only so much I can do with that.

Is this a response to me? I wasn't talking about reads on other people or saying that you hadn't done that.

And I realize my concerns are very potentially a me problem and in part stemming from the fact that this game started when it did, and I've been constantly behind and catching up when I can. I'll be getting caught up tonight though and should be on top of things for the remainder of the day though!

It is, yeah. I mean, there's a lot more to what we've both posted than our read of you.

FWIW in WH13 I wanted to outsource my read of you since I was hydraing with an expert, but didn't get that luxury. I got to a solid townread when I decided I needed to go it alone on day 1 and not wait for reads sync.

In Smokefilled, I was treating both you and Syr as masons practically from the start. My read of Syr was slightly stronger because he's an easier read for me. And we'd just made ourselves a masonry out of our neighborhood in the FGO 1 game, and a little of that vibe carried over to the dethy PT.

[morph the cat]

Actually I think my partner may have had a townread of you before he got too busy to follow the game. details are fuzzy and I'd have to go back through a discord chat to nail the timing down.

[morph the cat]

More importantly spay is completely trusting my reader she mentioned and I tend to make very snap quick decisions and never regret them when it comes to alignments of people whose play I know better than they do sometimes I understand your hesitance and accepting that fact or thinking that it's too soon but if anything that was slow on my part.

[morph the cat]

For what it's worth I did have an entire plan written out if I drew scum and you two Drew town that not even spay has or will see.

You never know when I might need it in the future after all.

[morph the cat]

I admit to being fully biased as she is literally my wife but people really underestimate how good of a scum Hunter penguin is and so I am more than content once I have a good read on her to write off into the sunset using her coattails.

[morph the cat]

Like, I want to engage, but then I read posts like 1378 and my eyes glaze over. (No offense.)

If you want to engage me, there are plenty of posts I've made that don't reference old games. Or, pick a topic.

[morph the cat]

The offer stands.

I'm here, and aside from the occasional bristle/snap I'm mostly friendly.

Sort of like my terrier...

[morph the cat]

It’s the open acknowledgment of self-awareness coupled with his LAMIST attitude and admission of uselessness that made me suspicious of him to begin with. The part I quoted in particular stands out as pretty odd to me.

This post at the time it was posted really bugged me, mostly because pulling out buzzwords so quickly always does, and LAMIST is one of the buzzwords I usually feel is least useful in describing a player's content. At the time I was townreading Shirou pretty hard and didn't really look past my negative reaction to whether contextually the post made sense or not. It actually did, as fua later defended adequately, hence this read also going townward.

Day Masonize: Amazon

Ready to locktown as of 257.

Let me know when you two nerds catch up to our read~

We were already townreading Amazons at this point, but the post did crystalize the read. Though I acknowledge, Tammy that you quite likely can make that kind of post as scum. But, the context of it all just really did it for us.

Since then we've only found more reasons to townread you both. At this point you'd have to paint yourself red, make terrifying snow angels and post pics to shake the read. Or, make questionable statements/stances, that might work, too.

Fast game, wee. I haven't read every post since my last one. Just gonna try to spit out some thoughts as they came to me while reading.

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

This is an interesting thought (that I see has already been scrutinized later in the thread so I won't dwell too much on it). I think there's merit in scumreading self-awareness, scum generally ARE hyper aware of what they're doing, if it looks good, what the implications might be of saying something, etc.

Ceph what are your page 6 thoughts?

i'm liking shirou a moderate amount. they seem at ease and i don't mean because they're talking about how at ease they are/want to be.

i didn't care for fua's first post.

Interested in how claiming confusion over hydras is anything but NAI. Like, I've seen scum fake confusion over the mechanics to appear +town. But over hydra composition?

Hey GuiltyLion! Still love the avatar.

What do you expect from Ydrasse this game?

--PA

Why ask this?

Why did post 110 in particular need to be poked at?

Just genuinely wondering because I’m confused as to what the end goal of the question is.

Why do I need an end goal?

--PA

This answer is +town. The question she's answering is -town.

Pulling this numbers post out in entirety because it was his second post and I didn't like it quite as much as I did the first one.

So I agree that PA's question-back is +town in the abstract, but I don't think it's out of her scumrange at all. IOW this kind of post is not why I'm townreading her and Tammy.

All in all, players pushing fua at this point in the game began to feel like going for low-hanging fruit and I didn't care much for that. I think the pushes on newer/unknown players should be looked back at when the game has progressed into the hard data phase. And yes, I was one of the earlier players pushing fua, but between NSG's admonishment and fua's 274 I calmed down and started to appreciate the swagger.

The interaction between Tejate and Ceph from 238 on is pinging me. 238 itself does strike me as a lot of nothing that

could

be scum indicative. Ceph calling him out on it though, for some reason I didn't like it even though I generally agreed with the sentiment. And overall I feel like Tejate is coming out of that back and forth looking towny, and Ceph null-scum.

I agreed with this at the time. I still feel the reaction to 238 was one of the more questionable things that Ceph has done, though I've come around to a townlean. It's tenuous because he keeps posting shit about us that has a casting asparagus from the sidelines feel to it. See below.

I also don't really think tejate raichu is scummy as of now and there's a couple things he's said that I think are at least a little towny.

I'm several pages past this post, and I didn't see anyone ask about this, and I'd like to know what the things he'd said at that point seemed a little towny too you.

implosion and nQ get major towncred for mindmelds

and I kinda townread Ydrasse so far too

What were your mindmeld congruencies with Implosion?

I want to TR Tejate because he does seem earnest. Plus I don't see S/S in Tejate + Ceph, and currently I like Ceph for scum. But I feel like Tejate isn't, I don't know, rocking the boat at all? I guess you don't have to do that to be town, but when I read most of his posts it feels kind of narrow and flat. I'm not seeing anything that makes me think "oh yeah, he's trying to pursue lines of thought and look for new angles to solve from".

Should probably re-ISO him but I'm out of time tonight, likely won't be on again until tomorrow.

The Tejate stance is +town to me based on what was in the game at this point.

I don’t really care because you haven’t made your point yet.

?

okay I'll draw it then.

in this game at the moment we don't know whether you're lying or not since we don't know your alignment.

in the thread I linked, we know for sure you were telling the truth, you had no reason to lie.

In this current game you replied sarcastically to someone basically implying that you were well-versed/experienced as scum so people should hold you up to higher standards.

In the scum PT I linked you to, you admit you aren't very inexperienced and that it's your second scum game ever.

You probably gained a bit more confidence in your scum game from the win in that recent scum game, but your sarcastic reply still feels ?"overdone"? to me in a certain extent?

It's the kind of reply I would expect from someone like Flavor Leaf or so, but not really from a newer player without too much scum experience on their belts.

I kinda don't like the use of "we" here. It comes off as trying to project "we the town".

On page 15, I like pretty much everything that fua posted. He even echoed my paranoia-pair thoughts.

I can see implosion and GL as a scum pairing.

i was just thinking of emptyvoting one of these two and now my thunder is slightly stolen. v rude.

VOTE: guiltylion

You, too, echoing my paranoia thoughts.

And then

fua, why morph town? i was just thinking it's a little alarming i don't have any reason to townread them yet

This was tiresome at the time. It's gotten about 5 times more tiresome since. Fucking figure me out. It's not that hard.

[morph the cat]

I'm here.

I'm absorbing atm.

My read of implosion is really frustrating. I feel strongly something's off with him, but it's so hard pinpoint/find words.

I don't think so. Pretty sure I was bugged before you expressed that. I think it probably has more to do with having suspected and even voted you at times in the dedede game I just didn't have certainty and conviction, and I don't want to make that mistake again here.

In dedede you had very specific things you nailed me on, or at least one, if I remember. Like I mentioned there was a single post you shredded me over that I immediately regretted making.

Right, and I didn't hang on to that read. And I wouldn't expect you to make that kind of misstep again, probably ever, but definitely not playing with us.

And, in that game I think we were well beyond 40 pages when that exchange occurred.

Your playstyle feels very similar here in some ways.

You're not going to convince me that this entirely an exercise of jumping at shadows. If I come to that conclusion it will on my own.

Have you been able to townread implosion in games where he’s been town?

it didn't hold completely but I worked into a townread of him in Empire's swag wars mini.

2 hiatus ago.

[morph the cat]

Are you two a total sync on redtea?

[morph the cat]

I ask because I was trying to make sense of my own read there. Penguin suspects implosion and I’ve just basically said I dunno. But really he doesn’t seem any different from other games, but I’ve never been great at reading him I don’t think. Iirc most of the time I have him as possible town unless other things in the game have made that clearer.

You were in the swag mini too. I don't remember your reads of Implosion. He was a 2-shot vig iirc.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62686

[morph the cat]

I will say this though, frankly, your reasons for townreading redtea suck and you should re-evaluate there. Again, they didn't take any real stance on your alignment, just buddied up to you while offering a generic vague statement about your playstyle that has nothing to do with your alignment

This post I agreed with.

I can see implosion and GL as a scum pairing.

is this because of any specific interactions between us, or just because we are both voting you

It’s because you have no interactions with each other and yet pray to the reach gods to try to fabricate a reason to scumread me within less than a page of one another. But that’s just why I think you could be paired even outside of you both individually being scum.

This is also kind of weird. I feel like scum if anything will try to have

different

reads from each other. I feel like if I were scum and saw a scumbuddy fabricate a scumread on player X the last thing I would do is then go "hm, i should also fabricate a scumread on player X".

And there's plenty of players that I at least have not interacted with at all.

Had to check. Your partners in dedede voted together occasionally on day 1. you did not vote with them.

-----------

I really didn't like the gang up on fua by GL and Implosion on page 18.

I very desperately want to call Shirou super town but I feel like he's the kind of slot that I incorrectly townread sometimes.

I like tejate/ceph/nQ/ydrasse for town so far.

I didn't hate these reads when they hit the thread, but only one of these players was a townread for me at the time and that was a little alarming. Implosion later wrote it up to our reads of Amazon not being the same.

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So much sync with Amazons on page 20-21. :/

so 238 essentially just says "hey look everyone i have handwritten notes" since there is no actual reason for it to exist.

this post in particular

I could definitely imagine it being town in Ceph's spot trying to pressure a questionable slot, but it's just ever so slightly too aggressive for me. like I can see where Ceph is coming from calling out that the "notes" comment is a bit LAMISTy, but it's not too hard for me to imagine a town!Tejate writing the post and thinking it might be useful, he feels genuine to me

morph (and penguin)

What did you guys think about this? Both the original post by Ceph and the analysis by Guilty Lion?

When the post hit the thread, we snorted at Ceph dusting off the Titus handwritten notes tell. And we don't think it's a valid observation in this case.

I don't really have an objection to GL's characterization of Ceph, beyond my general concern that many of his stances so far feel overblown given the data in the thread.

Also I'm gonna have to break out the benadryl if I see many more "LAMISTy" references.

Ceph's post there had a little kick to it, and I was trying to remember if that was more likely to come from ceph!town than ceph!scum. It's been so long, but I thought I remember it being more likely to come from town him?

Anyway, I found gl's post there about it a bit scummy, but then I just read through his back and forth with fua, and I liked his posts there, so now I"m kinda meh on thinking this was a scummy post.

I'm caught up but need to step away and finish some work, so I'll be back shortly.

My issue is that I felt that fua's posts were bleeding town at this point, which is why both GL and Implosion going at him at once just really bugged me.

---------------

I won't be posting much until I've finished watching my story. Back for realz in an hour or so.

[morph the cat]

VOTE: redtea

Sync Achieved.

[morph the cat]

I am caught up. It's also past my bedtime and I'm crashing. I will be around more over the next few days and will compile my thoughts tomorrow. Also playing mafia sober is weird. I think for years drinking something while playing helped me focus and clear all the clutter and distractions in my brain, and caused huge messes too, but sober my brain is like shiny wait what page was I on? lol.

Anyway, I'll talk about my reads tomorrow. Ffery, that point you made about GL going after fua there; that was one part of the game that I really liked GL. I was town leaning fua by that point, but that interaction ended up making me townread fua stronger and made me town lean GL. Maybe I wouldn't like it so much in retrospect, but I suspected GL's earlier posts and then liked that interaction.

I'll probably not crash right away, so I might post. Just no deep thoughts, if they exist, until tomorrow.

I like GL better than I do Implosion.

I'll say that much.

[morph the cat]

I know it's annoying when you're expecting someone to town read you easily and work together, and they're sitting over there squinty eyed

me, living this every game

Who is it this game who should be townreading you and working with you and isn't?

[morph the cat]

The times we have been able to work together were good games. Advance Wars. Even dedede. it's not a matter of worthiness, but of finding each other.

I've been trying to find a moment of zen. neuterhalf trusts peng to read you after the bloodstained game. it's games like that one that cause me to want to keep my guard up, but I feel like I should build a bridge and get over it.

[morph the cat]

AtE is kryptonite. :/

I'll try not to channel Pippin tomorrow.

[morph the cat]

that's a me problem.

I'll try to snap less

[morph the cat]

VOTE: redtea

Sync Achieved.

okay yeah you're probably scum

When I read this, my reaction was an eyeroll and ridicule.

Which gives me pause.

[morph the cat]

I do feel like giving morph the opportunity to have the vote they want could help me just BOP them instead of arriving at a read. :p

Those pretty words you posted last night. :/

[morph the cat]

It's understandable, mafia can be very emotionally turbulent. It can be hard to remind ourselves that at the end of the day, it's just a game.

A very draining game at times, but a game nonetheless.

Any thoughts about the actual content of the last 3-4 pages?

[morph the cat]

Like, where is your imaginality read at now? Have you had a chance to do the review you mentioned doing?

[morph the cat]

After this, Ceph proceeds to pocket Shirou with 207 and 223.

ummm soooo

i voted you because i felt like you were working towards a potential shirou vote with your posts like. 509 you're saying you don't buy what shirou's saying, you're doubtful, it's felt like a theme in your iso where you're unsure about shirou. so why are you confident then that this is ceph pocketing?

Yeah in a vacuum I'm unsure about Shirou. But that's all it is, uncertainty. I'm willing to TR him by association with my SR on Ceph.

Do you feel that using day 1 associatives is >rand in accuracy down the road?

You ran right over our reads list.

What, am I supposed to shut up while the big kids talk about things that matter? I'm gonna do my thing.

I just want to point, Ceph, that this was me saying I wanted your thoughts about our reads list.

In reply to your post I made that explicit. :/

After our discussion last night about your feeling shut out in a lot of games, running into this convo in my reread hit me right in the face. Maybe sometimes your expectation of being shut out is self-fulfilling.

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

It didn't look like a post meant for the scum PT to me, but overall I'm feeling like he's playing kinda on the sidelines and in a very self-referential way. It's been low-key bugging me for a while . Maybe this is a tough player list to break into for someone new to the site.

[snip]

not enough data to make an educated guess, but kinda scum-leaning tea, and kinda townleaning imaginality

How do you have anything but null on imaginality?

At the time it was sort of a tone-read, but I'm less copacetic atm. Compared to tea, imaginality was putting some data in the game at that point.

As to why less copacetic, I'm thinking about how ragey and solvey I get about being run up as town, whether I show the rage or not. Different players, different personalities, different styles. But there's absolutely no way I'd be joking about cauliflower in imaginality's shoes.

[morph the cat]

I meant those toooo

Later. I am pretty busy the next few days; evidently I cannot do anything g without upsetting someone which kinda suggests to me that this is important.

what is "this"? The redtea/imaginality wagons? Something else?

I hope you feel better soon, Ydra.

When you feel like getting back into the game I'm curious about your current thoughts on numbers.

[morph the cat]

And the reason I phrase that as "sketch me out a bit?" is because morph is not someone who I would ever expect myself to be able to actually get a solid scumread on or who I really expected to have much of a solid read on in general.

I hate the hedginess of this statement given there's like zero posts in your iso that suggest you're all that undecided about us.

You're not going to convince me that this entirely an exercise of jumping at shadows. If I come to that conclusion it will on my own.

And as for this I still am going to make every attempt to do so, partially because I still need to continue sorting you as well and partially because of a very primal need to nag people who are scumreading me when I can.

Where is the sorting? There are 54 mentions of "morph" in your ISO and none of them strike me as particularly sort-y. What posts am I misreading?

And worse, there are 54 mentions of "morph" in your iso, and not one of them is actually geared at sorting us. Maybe I'm missing something?

[morph the cat]

the joys of coming back to a post after almost finishing it. :/

[morph the cat]

can someone better at meta compare 546 to this post for me

ty

@number? I didn't see you respond to this post, though it's not exactly addressed to you.

There are some at least superficial similarities to the two posts.

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

I'm more in the crumb an inno, claim a guilty camp. However you feel about crumbs and whether you personally would go looking for one, the data's still there and I'm pretty confident that

somebody

would find it after a cop's flip if there was no need to out it earlier.

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

Crumbing results is a bad idea unless the crumb is ridiculously obvious, because cops flip without their night so we'd have no way of knowing if a dead cop has a result.

I generally would have no issue with a cop claiming an inno in almost any situation. But if you're a cop and you have an inno, and that inno is under no pressure, and you're under little or no pressure, and you don't think you're likely to be NK'd, then it's not unreasonable to hold onto the info. Also not unreasonable to give it.

Eh.

Hypoclaiming would be another option I suppose. There would be no ambiguity after a cop flip, and prior to that, just a whole lot of noise for scum to ponder.

eh

if I was scum I would love that opinion of yours

being able to claim later on "oh btw I'm cop and my inno is a dead guy from ages ago" is too much of a convenient fakeclaim here

There's barely any difference between claiming innos as soon as day start, and "waiting" to claim innos for town (when you consider the risk of the cop dying without ever saying someone was cleared, in fact it sounds like a swingy strategy)

However there certainly is a lot of benefit for scum to be able to hold on claiming until later. You want to make scum claim as soon as possible in this setup in my opinion. If you leave it all for when we massclaim, scum can fakeclaim whatever is the most convenient to counter our results by then.

This is probably a take we should give our opinions on. Everyone should comment on whether they are in favor or against cops claiming the innos as soon as day start.

I'm in

favor

. I want to lock scum to their claims as soon as humanly possible.

Thoughts about hypoclaiming?

@fua

You aren't confirmed but I see where you're going/your motivation for doing it I guess.

Who did scum read fua again? GL? I wonder what their opinion on this is.

Implosion went after him, too.

I'm a bit worried that I'm starting to town lean fua now due to that even if I know they seem to have intentionally said it for that reason (so I would be basically doing exactly what they want which is a bit uncomfortable?), but all in all, considering some other details and how this can develop, for now I think it's probably for the best for me to personally town-bin fua (not necessarily an universal recommendation). We can cross certain bridges when we get there I suppose.

IMO he was town before the claim, so much so that I would have blatantly gone to bat today. I can academically understand the concern about being future LHF.

this is one read I can be wrong about, I'm bad with reading newbies, but I also think Tejate is probably more likely than not town.

Even if he isn't conscious of it, I feel like it would be quite weird for scum!Teijate to be so worried later about people "tying up" his slot to Ceph unless they are partners...and if Ceph ever flips red, well,

we can cross that bridge if we do ever get there³.

Lastly, his post "if Shirou is scum he's surely doing a good damn fine job at it" seems rather unusual/difficult to come up with for newbie scum. It may be a single post but it's the kind of person/player I'm. I feel better about reads surrounding a few posts rather than taking the entire ISO of someone into consideration.

p-edit: @Teijate I can tell fua is likely ballsy, but my opinion that this is the correct course of action to do at the moment remains.

I have some misgivings.

Have you never put your ducks in a row and singled out potential miselims to push as scum? By taking one of those away and putting that fat towncred on myself I remove some of their power and give town time to talk about the events preceding my alignment and role reveal.

What towncred are you getting though? That's my point.

well, there is the towncred they're getting from being obviously town on these last 2 pages, does that help

I should have <3'd this post when it hit the thread.

So from my read-through, these are the players I'm suspicious of to various degrees:

Cephrir

looks a bit suspicious to me, there's been a few instances of Cephrir commenting negatively on something without following through on it. Seems like the intent is to stir up suspicion rather than scum-hunt.

I'm also suspicious of

Ydrasse

. Need to go back and get the quotes but I remember being pinged at least a couple of times.

I think if anything

fua

's claim today is slightly +scum rather than +town as fua hinted it's a late-day action so it seems like it could be designed to encourage us to keep fua around, while also making docs likely to target fua which is fua is scum gives scum freer rein to kill whoever they like. Definitely feeling a bit wary about that.

--

The players I get good townvibes from so far are

Shirou

,

morph

and

numberQ

. I feel okay about

GuiltyLion

too. I don't quite recall what the case was against him but I do recall it didn't seem great to me.

--

Having a hard time figuring out where I stand on

Amazonian

and

Tejate

. They will be my focus for digging into tomorrow

I was interested in the way

implosion

defended Ydrasse and NSG in post 632. This is more of an 'if NSG or Ydrasse flip scum, I'd look harder at implosion' thing. I don't see implosion as being as questionable as the players I mentioned above.

redtea

and

northsidegal

fall into TBC, need more data here.

--
Mech thoughts:

I'm on board with the 'cops claim results at daystart' plan.

On a different note:

Assuming a 5-5 split, we have on average 97% chance of at least one pair of Town cops (i.e. cops who have the same action on the same night), and 78% chance of two pairs (or one triplet). Even if it's a 4-6 split, the 4 town players have 81% chance of at least one pair.
The same analysis applies to docs, of course.
So objectively, for the town as a whole, we can't really tell a lot from the existence of any particular pair.

However, subjectively it's a little different. Subjectively, there's 1-80%^4 = 60% chance of you being paired with a town player if you're part of five town players with that role (and 50% if there are four of you, 70% if there are six of you). So someone claiming the same role and night as you gives you at least a slight reason to suspect them over baseline suspicion (3/12 = 25%).

The main thing I have to say about this post is that it's spicy in that some the reads he put forth ran pretty counter to the prevailing winds at this time.

town: shirou
town lean: fua, tejate
neutral: ydrasse, amazonian i GUESS but please do more
neutral but i look extra not impressed while talking about them: everyone else
scumlean: guiltylion, nsg

do better

How has this readslist stood up over time?

honestly now that i think about it this is more or less what i'd expect from a morph/amazon scumteam. a cursory dance followed by townlocking each other for inscrutable or too easy reasons, and amazon not doing much to interact with the rest of the game because it's easy for them to look good interacting with morph.

so i reiterate, do better

How did you expect town morph and town Amazon to interact?

I'd join a wagon on any of redtea/GL/imaginality I think.

I dunno why, but the willingness to vote GL surprises me. I feel like I've missed some stuff in your posts. will have to review.

Only to people considering wagoning NSG atm

Spoiler:

I do think NSG can easily be scum here but I'm really against any wagons on her at least for now. I would even say optimally you don't want to wagon NSG D1 at all but that's up to discussion.

I don't want to defend her too hard if unnecessary though because...multiple reasons...but I think a NSG miselimination shouldn't ever happen if avoidable, because once she gets her solves going, she often becomes kind of an unconfirmed Innocent Child in the game, which either forces scum to kill her (and wink wink we've lots of doctors here) or to play the game as if there's one less miselimination possible, since if you try to miseliminate town!NSG when she's obvtown, it's almost guaranteed to backfire.

In this setup where we have both doctors to protect obvious night kill targets,

and

cops that will clear some suspicious slots, having slots like her alive for as long as possible is kinda "the town dream". So, I don't think I'm voting NSG D1 here ever except if I feel she's almost confirmed scum.

I feel like this is a fair amount of defense of a player Shirou isn't expressing a townread on? I dunno. I think we've got some serious playstyle clash going on with him.

[morph the cat]

I just want to point, Ceph, that this was me saying I wanted your thoughts about our reads list.

In reply to your post I made that explicit. :/

After our discussion last night about your feeling shut out in a lot of games, running into this convo in my reread hit me right in the face. Maybe sometimes your expectation of being shut out is self-fulfilling.

Yes, you framed it as though I had done something wrong when I didnt even know you had posted a read list yet. This felt confusing and hostile to me. This post is also strangely hostile.

It wasn't meant to be harsh at all. It's occurred to me that we've been talking past each other. We've both been reading each other as hostile. We've both been sarcastic. I've been more up in your grill and you've been more asparagus from the sidelines.

I'm feeling so zen right now. I've let go of feeling like I have to solve you all by myself, and I'm in a mode where I'd like to try to work with you.

Some games I mostly play from a place of feeling I dunno, cooperative?

That generally doesn't happen when I feel like I'm being piled on by players who I think should know better (regardless of whether that's a good assumption on my part).

[morph the cat]

might've missed it bc i was skimming but kinda bummed no one responded to my questions in #1209. Like I didn't ask them just to ask, I asked because if someone had something to say it would be helpful to me.

a little old now but

@morph is this about me not responding to your question about my current fua read you posited *checks watch* 8 hours ago

You posted again a few hours after I asked the question without answering it. That's is of more concern to me than how many hours since I asked.

I just assumed you would've read #982 and held off on a follow-up accordingly, even if that @ wasn't to you

When would be a suitable amount of time to expect an answer?

[morph the cat]

ffs I am so bad with pronouns this game.

I'm so sorry. Will keep trying to do better.

[morph the cat]

This was referring to my caution/fear toward GL - it's interesting that you were curious how this had manifested since then, and then you later on were surprised that I was willing to wagon GL. I feel like you should be able to draw that connection if you were specifically looking for it.

Yeah you were but I'm still not really clear on the why. It's probably because I can't seem to drag my focus away from your trajectory on us.

[morph the cat]

But also partially... this is incredibly uncharitable. My empty vote on you was the start of an attempt to sort. 462 is to sort you. 520 is to try to get a baseline of how to think about your play. 530 is trying to interact with you and you (temporarily) refusing. 632 is me floating something of yours I thought was scummy to see what others think. This is all literally in the first 1/3 of those 54 mentions.

"Not one of them is geared toward sorting you" is, tbh, insulting in its hyperbolicity.

I don't see anything where I feel like you've tried to figure out my mindset or ask me ~questions~ about my stances. Maybe we go about sorting so differently?

[morph the cat]

This is an interesting one because half of my answer is I have no real idea why I thought it based on those two posts, and the other half is that I strongly suspect I just felt the need to say something of content in that post. The reason for this is that that post marked the end of my breadcrumb (hence it starting with "Anyway.") and I think I just wanted to say something else in it and I probably thought either her quick read on Amazons or her first post were townish. I feel comfortable saying this because my breadcrumb is so obscured that I don't think it's possible to figure out even knowing where it is.

We like this. I think ~I~ like it better than anything you've posted so far.

[morph the cat]

Don't yell at me though!

nah. you just make me sad.

my ceph read is in peng's hands.

and that is peace.

[morph the cat]

I'll let penguin smack me around if I start getting paranoid on Cephrir and morph again.

Please record this and sell it on the interwebs.

[morph the cat]

Partially this is fair criticism and I'd chalk it down to me just playing this game in a way that isn't particularly focused, in general.

But also partially... this is incredibly uncharitable.

???????
I dont know that I liked any of this post.

elaborate?

[morph the cat]

It's been a crazy day for both of us.

Tomorrow.

[morph the cat]

@Guiltylion

What are your overall reads now? Your last reads list I could find was the top of 892.

[morph the cat]

@Morph

I think Shirou/implosion/AL/Ydrasse/fua is a fundamentally sound town core at the moment, I really like a lot of Shirou's posts re:imaginality and Tejate, and I think scum is going to have a hard time breaking into that townbloc even if there's capable scum in like Ceph or NSG who hasn't made any mistakes yet. and I don't even think that's likely I townread both of them still as well.

I townread all these names here, Ceph/NSG are lighter townreads, I still SR redtea, I'm waffley on Tejate/numberQ I think there could be a scum there. Really not sure how to read you, at times posts have felt town but I agree with the general thread vibe that you aren't yet a

confident

townread, probably same tier as Ceph/NSG where I definitely don't want to lim/wagon today but I wouldn't bet the game on y'all being town.

I asked this because of your post about there being a deep scum in your townreads if either of redtea or imaginality are town. That sounded like you have a binary list that contained at most one null.

And I interpreted the read list I linked to, as approximately that binary, so wanted to confirm you're still in a fairly binary mode.

[morph the cat]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more

rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

what others? and how are they doing so.

I feel like this is how things have worked out so far, but it's not at all clear to me that several players are efforting to make the game come down to you vs redtea.

[morph the cat]

@Imaginality, I'm confused by these two posts.

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more

rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

what others? and how are they doing so.

I feel like this is how things have worked out so far, but it's not at all clear to me that several players are efforting to make the game come down to you vs redtea.

So I've just reread from page 50 or so and got the quotes.

Though, to some extent, everyone has implicitly let this move towards me vs redtea, because there's been no votes that whole time except a couple on redtea and GL's one on me. So that has let the game drift on closer towards deadline, which implicitly narrows it to a me vs redtea dilemma if we remain the main two wagons.

In terms of explicitly pushing redtea v me, here are the posts I found. The majority come from Shirou and GuiltyLion:

imaginality (4): fua, Ydrasse, implosion, Shirou
redtea (3): GuiltyLion, Amazonian Legends, Cephir

Those are the current votes.

@redtea, NSG, NumberQ

hi I need your votes on the Imaginality's wagon. When you guys come around could you go into your read on Imaginality? I want to convince you three that he's likely scum if you already don't think so.

If you already do think so, please do vote him. We're nearing 60 pages by now and it's not bad even if it ends up ending the day.

Especially you redtea, it's either your or him at this point I believe.

In post 1452 AL said they want to lim me redtea or numberQ, while numberQ was VLA.

My opinion on redtea right now is annoyingly similar to Shirou's: they have the aesthetics in my mind of a slot that could easily be either alignment but is prone to being misread as scum if town.

I feel like imaginality is a better shot for actual scum

...

GuiltyLion continues the focus on redtea v me in post 1486.

A similar exchange in 1492-1516.

I don't think my goal here needs to be convincing you to give up on redtea for the rest of the game at all, I think I would be quite satisfied in simply persuading you that Imaginality may be the better D1 elimination.

yeh, this is fine, I see your point and I'm fine with opting for imaginality instead

once I get an updated VC I'll probably vote there

GL focusing numberQ purely on redtea v me:

If there's anything anyone feels I should pay particular attention to, let me know.

I most of all want your takes on redtea, imaginality, and everything Shirou is saying in favor of imaginality over redtea

@redtea you don't seem to like Imaginality slot that much so can you vote for him before I lose my patience and begin pushing your wagon myself? It's either you or him.

Please and thank you.

I'm interested to see what Ceph will decide here

@numberQ, you seem kinda whatever/neutral on redtea while kinda suspicious of some imaginality's posts. Are you willing to vote him in a redtea vs imaginality dilemma?

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

Wait lmao good catch, "if they're scum as well"

This is in the context of a post talking about people who are pushing for/okay with me v redtea. I'm saying if redtea is scum as well as the people narrowing it down/letting it drift to a 1v1, I think they might more likely have been keen to keep other names open as possible D1 lims, unless they're confident they can get me limmed over redtea.

Initially I thought you were saying that you suspect scum in the players who are pushing a you/red tea elim.

The second post sounds like you expect scum to want to widen the pool further?

[morph the cat]

But also partially... this is incredibly uncharitable. My empty vote on you was the start of an attempt to sort. 462 is to sort you. 520 is to try to get a baseline of how to think about your play. 530 is trying to interact with you and you (temporarily) refusing. 632 is me floating something of yours I thought was scummy to see what others think. This is all literally in the first 1/3 of those 54 mentions.

"Not one of them is geared toward sorting you" is, tbh, insulting in its hyperbolicity.

I don't see anything where I feel like you've tried to figure out my mindset or ask me ~questions~ about my stances. Maybe we go about sorting so differently?

my perception is that you're scumreading or at least heavily distrusting implosion; not that one can't olive branch a scumread, but surprised by the conciliation.

I've reset to null on Implosion. I came into the game wanting to catch scum-Implosion this time if he is scum, but I feel like I wound up with a ton of confirmation bias. The way he's approaching this game is actually different and the parallels I was thinking/hoping I saw aren't really that parallel when I dig in.

The post you quoted happened after the reset. So not so much conciliatory as starting from scratch on the read, and not assuming the worst of the post I responded to.

[morph the cat]

I no longer need to outsource my cephread.

Watch me be wrong. :/

[morph the cat]

I'm at the point where I just want a flip, awful as that is. There's a ton of dense info (to me at least) in the thread, we've over sixty pages for a mini game, and I'm not at the point of wanting to go to bat for any of the leading wagon [candidates].

Tammy-talk time, I think?

--PA

I agree on the dense info. This game is way more wall-y than conversational. Especially given the #pages.

I want there to be an NSG replacement before we end the day, but I don't always get what I want in mafia.

[morph the cat]

My urge to feel nothing and data for the data gods is creeping up on me.

[morph the cat]

Welcome, Meg. I don't think you're in particular danger of being elim'd today, so worst case scenario you can probably catchup over night 1.

Let it be known that my gut hates this post with every fiber of it's being but logic me has zero idea why.

Also cephy boy if you're around prolly unvote to prevent lolhammer? It's calling to me and I need you to save me from my own data need gods.

[morph the cat]

Morph, if nothing else, I appreciate your gut's brazen honesty. And your terminology.

Just wait till somebody does something stupid enough for me to break out THE CHECKLIST.

[morph the cat]

Context:

Spoiler:

Subject: Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

Wait, like what the fuck do I have to do with that quote chain at all to be mentioned here? I've been staying quiet as to not "Spread wifom" (because god knows none of you would trust my reads until I die anyways), but still: What am I missing that I'm involved here?

I've got this one.

bure bure bure bure
Your axle is shaking

reads as an attempt to pull people off your wagon to pile on his. He's giving himself up in your defense. The only motivation I can see for that is that he knows your role and it's more important than his. Since a good many people see both you guys as scum, logic would be you have a scum PR.

I really hope AJ is a scum PR.

Also, do you -really- think I'm trying to make myself a lynch target when I've got a vote on AJ?

Your play this game advocates a(n)

( ) insightful ( ) interesting (X) uncommon ( ) crazy

approach to fighting scum. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from meta to meta.)

(X) Scum can use it as a blank check to hide.
(X) It is just as likely to get false positives.
(X) It violates the mod’s rules.
(X) It will get townies killed
(X) It requires scum to be stupid
( ) It does not account for the closed nature of the setup
(X) Your solution speculates at the setup
(X) The townbloc won’t put up with it
(X) Requires too much cooperation from scum
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
(X) The town cannot afford the risk.
(X) Scum will see it coming ten miles away
(X) Anyone could fake the result they want

Specifically, your plan fails to account for

(X) Rules expressly prohibiting it
( ) Lack of confirmed townies
( ) Timezones
( ) Ease of planning a response in advance assuming scum daychat
( ) Asshats
(X) Nobody trusts you
(X) Unpopularity of new gambits
(X) The existence of already successful scumhunting tactics
(X) Susceptibility of newbtown to fall for it as well
(X) Willingness of players to give you a chance
(X) People who hate your play
(X) Scum safeclaims given by mod
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
(X) It could just as easily be WIFOM
( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
been shown practical
(X) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
(X) Flavor Gambits suck
(X) Why should we have to trust you and your methods?
( ) Incompatiblity with the current player base
(X) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
(X) Revealing info does nothing but assist scum
( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
(X) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
house down!

[morph the cat]

can we throw ydrasse off the mountain?

Just like, gutvivin, or you got reasons?

[morph the cat]

I don't like, hate it, but she DOES have a pretty legit reason for being lackluster RN.

[morph the cat]

Man I wish I had the ability to catch up as fast as Meg is right now. I just can't retain information at that level of speedreading

I dunno it's probably not indicative (town or scum can lazily skim through a game) but it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their reads. In the 13 minutes between 1634 and 1635 they read 7 pages closely enough to update their opinions/reads on players? That's only just enough time to read the posts IMO, there's no way Meg sat down with any significant/notable arguments or posts and spent any more than 30 seconds thinking about any of them.

again, could be lazy-town, and I've certainly been lazy or skipped over certain parts/sections of the game at time, but it's not an inspiring catchup

Have you played with Megs before?

[morph the cat]

Man I wish I had the ability to catch up as fast as Meg is right now. I just can't retain information at that level of speedreading

I dunno it's probably not indicative (town or scum can lazily skim through a game) but it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their reads. In the 13 minutes between 1634 and 1635 they read 7 pages closely enough to update their opinions/reads on players? That's only just enough time to read the posts IMO, there's no way Meg sat down with any significant/notable arguments or posts and spent any more than 30 seconds thinking about any of them.

again, could be lazy-town, and I've certainly been lazy or skipped over certain parts/sections of the game at time, but it's not an inspiring catchup

Have you played with Megs before?

I have not - what should I know?

Weeeeeeeeeeeelll, we've got good news and bad news.

[morph the cat]

Man I wish I had the ability to catch up as fast as Meg is right now. I just can't retain information at that level of speedreading

I dunno it's probably not indicative (town or scum can lazily skim through a game) but it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their reads. In the 13 minutes between 1634 and 1635 they read 7 pages closely enough to update their opinions/reads on players? That's only just enough time to read the posts IMO, there's no way Meg sat down with any significant/notable arguments or posts and spent any more than 30 seconds thinking about any of them.

again, could be lazy-town, and I've certainly been lazy or skipped over certain parts/sections of the game at time, but it's not an inspiring catchup

Have you played with Megs before?

I have not - what should I know?

I wondered if your concerns about the speed was meta based, because from what I've seen spectating games, I dunno. Megs usually has several ongoing games at once and speed-catchups aren't unheard of. They have a trolly playstyle. This opening didn't look all that trolly to me.

I've spectated at least one Megs newbie game. The one I'm thinking of, Megs was scum. Definitely trolly play in that one. They got the un-counterclaimed cop elimmed on Day 2.

[morph the cat]

Limming cops is my specialty

I think I used this arguement in that game as well, it's not my only reason to scumread fua but I'll change topics for now

Why do we not want to send ydrasse into the volcano

Elaborate on why you think she's scum?

[morph the cat]

I really just want to hear more from/about the slot.

It's really been just coasting up to here which is :/

We had a spikey interaction with Ydrasse about 48 hours into the game IIRC. And came away from it with less of a scumread, but not nearly the townread we had before her Numbers vote. Started here: viewtopic.php?p=13206127#p13206127

[morph the cat]

morph, not sure if relevant, but if you're looking for Meg games, there's Role-A-Pair Red.

--PA

Do you think that game compares with this one?

I kinda don't.

but playing with a bunch of hidden alts (or not so hidden ~eyebrow raise~ at neuterhalf) is maaaybe not all that great for experiential meta. Or maybe I've already shoved that one down the memory hole.

[morph the cat]

What are you talking about NOBODY* knew it was me.

(*Bell thought I was you supposedly)

[morph the cat]

It would be extremely easy in this environment to justify a hammer here, so that tells me one of these, in order of likely hood, is true...:

A: The wagon is on scum and the buddies are hoping for a reprieve out of apathy.
B: Wagon is on town. Scum are already all on the wagon and afraid to actively cheerlead for day's end
C: Wagon is on town. Scum are partially on the wagon and the holdouts have actively town read the wagonee and therefore cannot justify hopping on or cheerleading.

[morph the cat]

Hey amazons, you around?

[morph the cat]

I know ydra's sick and that it's much easier to read passively than to try to do stuff when sick.

But, I gotta point out that there have been some recent beetlejuice posts from her.

[morph the cat]

*actively cheerleads the day ending*

So what you're telling me is I can make ceph's day, annoy redtea, AND summon the cute twinky femcatboy mod all at once~?

[morph the cat]

Hey amazons, you around?

Taking this as a "no" and my burning desire to talk shop with them does not this game stagnating worth deserve.

[morph the cat]

=====[]

VOTE: The power of imagination

[morph the cat]

I am hesitantly hopeful that we just had a scum "nope" out of the thread?

[morph the cat]

(you need to type the player name correctly in the vote for it to count, I'm pretty sure).

Incorrect.

[morph the cat]

Votes must not be spoilered and should be in the format of VOTE: Player or Vote: Player, or they will not be counted. Abbreviating someone's name is acceptable, so long as I can discern who you were voting for without trouble. If I think it should count as a vote, it will.

[morph the cat]

Spoiler:

Your thoughts re Tejate here vs in the just-finished newbie game?

[morph the cat]

I see differences. I'm not sure if they can be chalked up to replacing in vs playing from the start.

[morph the cat]

Fua is very obviously locktown.

Even a dummy face like me can see it.

[morph the cat]

fua is a friend

Do you confess to trying to give fua a giant hug last night?

[morph the cat]

Agree that a night one cop who targeted redtea is outright worth claiming the inno here for the data if nothing else.

I think Mafia is doing the quote unquote keep it simple stupid plays here and I expect to see that borne out today.

[morph the cat]

Okay so penguin got enough people to answer her question.

We healed fua last night.

Yeah as was literally obvious by the sheer smugness in her first post.

It's why I called fua locktown.

[morph the cat]

Aw yeah.

--PA

Like come on subtlety is deadass not happening when you post like this!

[morph the cat]

Also that's why I said Mafia made the easy braindead play to try and kill the cop claim instead of something fancier*

*Discounting the one in a hundred chance a fua scumteam got fucking fancy last night.

[morph the cat]

although there may be

more than two

n1 doctors I guess...

Now that amazoness CEO has claimed to be beautiful explain the shit out of this line because uhhhhh

[morph the cat]

Yeah one in a hundred is generous closer to 1 in a thousand but eh.

[morph the cat]

Also, I wasn't necessarily saying we should only look at imaginality wagon today. This situation is very different from my proposal in 2085, and in fact I actually AGREE with you. We probably don't find all 3 scum on that wagon. Of course, that naturally makes me very high on the suspect list due to that shoddy unvote. I understand that and will just have to accept the consequences of my actions.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. I think there is probably at least one on the wagon, but I doubt all 3 joined it. I actually think it'd be easier to look off wagon.

What are your current reads?

[morph the cat]

im not used to hunting from wagns especially town wagons but that does seem for some reason like a useful avenue this game

so you agree with Tejate's vision that there's likely scum (and perhaps multiple scum) in the Imaginality wagon?

Or do you perhaps agree with mine that it's likely there's at least one scum out of Imaginality's wagon?

i don't like to think in terms of "there's scum in this wagon," i think that alone is too specific, however i want to analyze the flow of votes in general and see if anyone stands out.

fair.

to be honest my opinion that there may be at least one outside of the wagon may be biased because my individual reads also point that way, kinda.

eh, let me open this d2 then with this

VOTE: meg

It's either this or Tejate for now from me, but I'm gonna open with this because I think it's more interesting (and also maybe scummier?)

I didn't like how all he had to say after catchup was mostly a ydrasse vote near deadline (especially since she was sick anyway). That didn't help at all when Imag flipped town and also especially if redtea is town as well as I ~kinda do think~ (less confident than yesterday though).

Feels like scum that didn't want to get his hands dirty to me.

/shrug

Do they make sense together?

[morph the cat]

Do they make sense together?

kkkk Idk

I guess maybe? I'm trying to not associative read too much today given yesterday results though

I asked because after both 1756 and 1766 both hit the thread, I started throwing posts from nsg/megs' iso about Tejate at neuterhalf.

After newbie 2085 I can say quite emphatically that megs doesn't approach mafia the way I do. I felt like their catchup being super quick and super shallow yesterday wasn't too different from how they entered n2085. Going quixotic on ydrasse when there was a nice juicy wagon on town sitting there is maybe a point in favor of town-her.

[morph the cat]

I think town for sure would have had something to say about the two top wagons that had been discussed so much...but he didn't say or do anything other than a vanity vote on Ydrasse. I can't help but be weirded out by that.

This is a good point, though.

[morph the cat]

Man, is it really between me and Meg right now? Because I kind of don't full on SR Meg for that for the exact reason mentioned above.

Okay we've gone past where self awareness is endearing and this is just outright sigh face.

[morph the cat]

morph's was just a vote-to-end-the-day afaict.

It was us giving up on waiting for the newbie to be valid citation as well as the game stagnation getting pretty ugly.

[morph the cat]

What are your current reads?

Amazonian and fua are town for reasons that should be fairly obvious.

Null town are GL, imp, Ydrasse, and Meg. Meg in particular because I liked NSG's later posts before she left; and because while I'm not exactly a fan of their opening here, I don't think it's very dissimilar from what they did in the newbie game.

Ceph is still a null read for me, and I've come around to a null read on numberQ as well. I think the latter half of their iso looks much better than the first. Ceph is null because I haven't been pinged much, and nQ is null because I've been pinged in both directions.

I wanted to give redtea a chance to prove me wrong, but honestly this slot still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb to me. morph, as I have already described previously, has pinged me little and what has pinged me has not inspired very much confidence.

You have meta experience with the head who's doing the most morph-driving. I'm a little surprised that hasn't informed your read one direction or another.

[morph the cat]

To a degree, it kind of has. I didn't feel it to be that worth mentioning, especially since Amazonian expressed similar thoughts at some point, but I feel like ffery was very much a force to be reckoned with in that game. Even when she was constantly being pushed as scum seven ways from sunday, she was still constantly giving out her thoughts in the hope that it could help town after the mis-elim. Granted, that was a very different situation to this game, but I haven't been feeling that same energy.

The energy level comes down in part (maybe mostly) to mafia exhaustion from that game. I was holding back a lot of snark and anger in the newbie game. I let it fly when the mood hits in this one.

You wouldn't know if either of those states is AI, but they're certainly different states!

(Newbie games are different, but I'm generally more snarky as town).

[morph the cat]

To a degree, it kind of has. I didn't feel it to be that worth mentioning, especially since Amazonian expressed similar thoughts at some point, but I feel like ffery was very much a force to be reckoned with in that game. Even when she was constantly being pushed as scum seven ways from sunday, she was still constantly giving out her thoughts in the hope that it could help town after the mis-elim. Granted, that was a very different situation to this game, but I haven't been feeling that same energy.

It

is

a different situation. I'm having a really hard time reconciling your play here with your day 1 replacement play in the newbie game. I can see having a slower start just due to being in the game from the start and not having anything to work with initially outside of what you can spin up from rvs.

[morph the cat]

both of us will be fairly scarce today.

[morph the cat]

I copped Ceph and got an inno result

Oh damn it spay is gonna be so smug with her ceph whisperer ways.

[morph the cat]

I copped Ceph and got an inno result

Oh damn it spay is gonna be so smug with her ceph whisperer ways.

I'm not the ceph whisperer. I put him in PA's hands yesterday, so she gets to be smug!

[morph the cat]

I copped Ceph and got an inno result

Oh damn it spay is gonna be so smug with her ceph whisperer ways.

I'm not the ceph whisperer. I put him in PA's hands yesterday, so she gets to be smug!

Vice whisperer given you town read him independently before the end of day one at least.

[morph the cat]

If we take all current claims at face value (and I'm inclined to do so) then we've got a pool of 8, including my own slot, with three scum in those eight.

Megs (Formerly NSG)
Ydra
implosion
redtea
morph the cat (Cabd & fferyllt)
Tejate Raichu
GuiltyLion
Shirou

I'm gonna let Amazonians town case us whenever they get around to it, so worrying about the other 7....

Shirou sort of floats to the top of our town pool within this subset, not inclined there unless we're missing something.

So we'll be concentrating on the other six:

Megs (Formerly NSG)
Ydra
implosion
redtea
Tejate Raichu
GuiltyLion

[morph the cat]

Came back to check before I head out. My issue with morph that brought me to a null-scum is their lack of posts I like rather than posts I didn't. I feel like at the very least I'd have seen more from ffery. I can't think of any specific posts that scumping me on such short notice, but the main reason I have almost no confidence in this slot at the moment is because the most townie post (in my opinion) that I've looked at was less like a loud ping and more like someone whispering the word "town" from another room.

I forgot to mention in that particular post, but I actually left Shirou out intentionally. I want to think a bit on their slot in particular, and I wanted to express those thoughts in a separate post. My bad for not mentioning it.

I feel similarly about you. You were a relative ball of fire in the newbie game and really efforted there. I was townreading you almost immediately after you replaced in.

Here, you've been passive and it feels like you're just sitting back waiting for the game to come to you rather than digging your teeth in.

But, I don't know if I should be expectation-setting based on that newbie game, so I'm trying to kind of level it off a little. If I don't look for that kind of effort and energy and townpost after townpost after townpost, then what do I have left?

A lot of posts that don't do much for me, and quite a few posts that actively ping.

[morph the cat]

@Tejate

No response to my post from last night?

[morph the cat]

Ceph my thoughts about Tejate revolved so much around how different he's been here vs the newbie game, which I could not discuss on day 1.

The interaction you point up is when it started to hit home how different and how anemic his interactions are here compared to that game.

Anyway, I should have pushed him more on day 1, but I hoped the newbie game was going to end at any moment for several days and I could straight up ask him what the hell. I was an incredibly slow and low-activity final day.

I'm a little annoyed he had no response to my post last night.

[morph the cat]

god i just spotted that "ffery gave away the farm" post again and... idk you're so weird this game is a spade just a spade.

ugh.

This aspect of my scum game was a known thing in like 2014. I remember notsci saying something about it in the tales of you game (I think that was the game).

I'm better at not letting it seep so noticeably into my posts, for sure. Sometimes it's not there at all. Sometimes there is a post or two where it came out, that might or might not have been noticed.

[morph the cat]

Ceph my thoughts about Tejate revolved so much around how different he's been here vs the newbie game, which I could not discuss on day 1.

this does not really explain why your dance was so bad!!

I mean I can't speak for her but if you want me to can-opener the can of worms that is my head about why I'm different this game, just remember you asked for it?

[morph the cat]

that's foreboding

Eh, more like it's not mafia related in the slightest and very uh, personal, but if you need to know then I'm fine opening up.

[morph the cat]

I can't stop that just by defending against scum!me arguments from you and Shirou.

I take it you've not done much research on Morph outside of the game you played with spay, then.

If anything, we're IMFAMOUS for actively dismantling wagons if we become convinced a player is town, damn the torpedos. See most recently the T3-->Dann slot event in Cephrir's large theme he hosted a while back.

[morph the cat]

I admit that my play has not been the best this game. It's pretty clear that I've caused a situation where I am forced on the defensive, and will likely not be trusted until a cop checks me or I am released from this mortal coil. I do not feel like there is much constructive I can say in response to this particular post. And frankly, even if I did, I'm not really sure that it's going to do me much good to keep being defensive. It's pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing, I have 3 voters on me and several people who are likely to have me as their first or second pick for a wagon. I can't stop that just by defending against scum!me arguments from you and Shirou.

I'm not printing out roadmaps to getting townread by me, but defending against arguments you're scum ain't it.

The post you're responding to, I'm not even calling you scum. I'm saying that the differences in your play are giving me a bad case of hives, even though I objectively feel it's wrong for me to build an entire model's worth of expectations on one game played with you.

[morph the cat]

I admit that my play has not been the best this game. It's pretty clear that I've caused a situation where I am forced on the defensive, and will likely not be trusted until a cop checks me or I am released from this mortal coil. I do not feel like there is much constructive I can say in response to this particular post. And frankly, even if I did, I'm not really sure that it's going to do me much good to keep being defensive. It's pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing, I have 3 voters on me and several people who are likely to have me as their first or second pick for a wagon. I can't stop that just by defending against scum!me arguments from you and Shirou.

I'm not printing out roadmaps to getting townread by me, but defending against arguments you're scum ain't it.

The post you're responding to, I'm not even calling you scum. I'm saying that the differences in your play are giving me a bad case of hives, even though I objectively feel it's wrong for me to build an entire model's worth of expectations on one game played with you.

[morph the cat]

that's foreboding

Eh, more like it's not mafia related in the slightest and very uh, personal, but if you need to know then I'm fine opening up.

i'll let it rest for now. i don't think you would make up something like that, but at the same time i still get to be suspicious of you because you can have life issues and a red role pm

Oh of course that is true. Just like in bloodstained with you.

We didn't, but that's for me and spay to know, Amazonians to get of their asses to tell the world about, and for you to begrudgingly admit at one point or another.

[morph the cat]

i dont want to discourage anyone from DOing Stuff but it's interesting to observe who responds to this seemingly town-loaded gamestate by springing into action and who is chilling

Can you talk more about this? Why seemingly? It sounds like you feel that scum would be motivated to do more in this state than town would?

[morph the cat]

redtea is still distinctly underwhelming.

[morph the cat]

I kinda wish the cop result had been on someone I personally had/have more concerns about, but numberQ deciding to target ceph was well telegraphed and makes a lot of sense given his day 1 perspectives.

[morph the cat]

i dont want to discourage anyone from DOing Stuff but it's interesting to observe who responds to this seemingly town-loaded gamestate by springing into action and who is chilling

Can you talk more about this? Why seemingly? It sounds like you feel that scum would be motivated to do more in this state than town would?

i think it's a possibility anyway that scum would feel a bit of fire under their butts today because the pool appears to have narrowed significantly

For me, it's not narrowed much at all, except possibly in the case of ydrasse. I had a hard townread on fua yesterday. numberQ was in the upper end of the mushy middle.

[morph the cat]

Good afternoon, I've thought about it a bit and I have come to a conclusion.

VOTE: implosion

Explanation coming whenever I'm done writing it, have some patience.

You have implosion as a null-town read in your last reads list, which was about 2 calendar days ago, I think.

[morph the cat]

Good afternoon, I've thought about it a bit and I have come to a conclusion.

VOTE: implosion

Explanation coming whenever I'm done writing it, have some patience.

You have implosion as a null-town read in your last reads list, which was about 2 calendar days ago, I think.

Did I not also state that he would probably be the first person I'd bump down given some re-thinking?

It's a rather significant bump. I look forward to the explanation!

[morph the cat]

Good afternoon, I've thought about it a bit and I have come to a conclusion.

VOTE: implosion

Explanation coming whenever I'm done writing it, have some patience.

You have implosion as a null-town read in your last reads list, which was about 2 calendar days ago, I think.

Did I not also state that he would probably be the first person I'd bump down given some re-thinking?

It's a rather significant bump. I look forward to the explanation!

You ignoring me? Or just not active in thread atm?

I'm here-ish and being a little blinkered about where I focus because I'm apparently still in recovery mode from the infamous Newbie game we keep referencing. :/

I didn't notice your post to us or I would have responded to it. I'm kinda still in the mode that I adopted in the latter third of Day 1, of observing without trying to force myself into a conclusion on you and GL as sort of an antidote to being extra-suspicious of you both coming into the game.

I'm a little grumpy that neither you nor GL were copped night 1. Like I said earlier, I see why numberQ picked ceph to cop, and I would probably have used a n1 cop on one of my players of greatest concern even if I was p much alone in that concern. My predisposition is to play investigative PRs like the ability is a vig kill. I don't always follow-through, but it's where my head starts. And I should mention that I hero-shoot as vig, and don't usually go after null-ish reads.

Your approach of taking GLs posts in the worst possible light was offputting to read. I'm curious how you go about reeling that back in and trying to look more objectively. You've said you are doing that (or something like that -- maybe my interpretation isn't great) or are going to do that, but if it's happening, it wasn't evident to me in your posts this afternoon.

I feel like GL is taking a wider view of the game than you are, and I tend to townread a wider view in isolation, though town tunneling is a thing and keeping the elim-pool wide has value to scum.

Basically, right now I wouldn't shed a tear about either of you being today's elim, but I want to get to a point where I do shed a tear or shout huzzah. Cabd mentioned our propensity for developing townreads on players getting hammered hard in a game, and then kicking the wheels of their wagons.

Tejate is the kind of player who would warrant that kind of defense if we ever get to the point where we have a strong townread on him.

I have difficulty fathoming the level of meh I feel about this game right now.

[morph the cat]

The Megs/Shirou thing, on the face of it I want to townread both for it.

NSG's warning about taking Shirou too lightly made an impression on me even though I wasn't townreading NSG's posts. And I became more cautious about one of my earliest townreads -- one of the three players I was willing to punch a Day 3 ticket for during the first 2-3 days of Day 1.

Megs coming in and settling on a scumread of the same slot that NSG voiced a generalized "be careful about automatically townreading him" kinda bugs me, though. It makes me wonder if there's a greater tactic in play. e.g., greater than the 2 slots most obviously involved.

[morph the cat]

GL is making it hard to stay on the wait and see train.

[morph the cat]

(standing at the edge of the room) fight fight fight

come fight with us too ydra!

nothing better to feel like you've completely recovered your energy than to punch someone in the gut or face you know?

You'll feel the energy spreading through your arms and legs again, and when you get punched as a reaction, your sense of smell/taste is also gonna let you feel the blood running through your hurt mouth and broken nose. It's quite something.

that is true BUT i have no stances. i'm a free agent of chaos just trying to make everyone go wild

This sounds a lot like some of the scum-you posts in Ceph's nearly normal game.

[morph the cat]

p-edit: why? feel like voting him or with him?

Part of 2081 gave me some townfeels.

[morph the cat]

By wider view, I feel like he's more actively into what's happening with other slots. Your interactions have been more focused.

And I guess I'm kinda annoyed with you both because aside from this one interaction that you kicked off, I feel like on day one, I was acting and you were reacting, and GL was on an entirely different planet from me, though he was doing stuff out there in interplanetary space.

It's a slight difference, maybe? But both approaches have me scrabbling for something to hold onto wrt your alignments.

The way I pick up on GL's focus vs yours is entirely due to the way I approach games, myself. I don't even know if it would resonate outside my own head.

[morph the cat]

everyone feels my raw towny energy even through such few words

Urge to burn

[morph the cat]

yeah, but today isn't the day to worry about that

hence urge, not vote.

[morph the cat]

I'm interested to see if redtea slot will be replaced out

Same.

If he's not going to step up and start putting content in the game, I hope he's replaced.

[morph the cat]

@Implosion

Was that it re your interest in my take on you vs GL?

[morph the cat]

I feel like interacting with me directly is the best way to sort me.

Possibly less effective with Cabd, though it's usually a major factor in my sorting him.

[morph the cat]

direct interaction also helps me sort others, and I need to get over my sense of meh and do more of that.

[morph the cat]

I feel like there's absolutely no spiciness to my current reads. more or less agreeing with some reads lists while snorting at where we're placed. Maybe that's a sign of town converging, but I don't really trust that's what's going on.

[morph the cat]

We're not townreading redtea.

[morph the cat]

2197 is one of the few posts I've straight-up liked from you this game. :/

[morph the cat]

That's the thing, I feel like that already happened. Did you see how discussion of redtea at all just dropped? It seemed like no one was keen to talk about them today early on, despite them being the most major wagon from yesterday. No, we jumped right into scum!Tejate hour without even a single mention of the scummiest inactive slot. IIRC GuiltyLion was one of the first people to actually pull discussion back there.

The counterpoint to this is that redtea so far has done nothing much that provokes a big rethink, and just coming into today with a vote there doesn't advance much knowledge. I wanted to push and poke at other slots I'm not townreading, which I've been able to do to some extent.

Not as much as I'd like. The 1v1 back and forth walls are really offputting to me. I never am going to love that style of play, but this game it's actively soul-draining.

----------

I kinda like Meg's voiced concern about rushing to an elim, even though I don't think it's likely to happen in this player list.

[morph the cat]

We are here, and not hammering atm, though we'll declare intent.

Would REALLY like some convo with Amazonians before this day ends.

[morph the cat]

I'll take the intent down until further notice. I hope you're able to catch up tomorrow, Tammy. Would also love to see some Peng posts.

[morph the cat]

ugh

[morph the cat]

How about unvoting?

[morph the cat]

:fistbump:

[morph the cat]

Idk maybe it's already discussed or something.

Your slot is leashed to protecting fua tonight.

Figure out if you agree with that, please.

[morph the cat]

I'm trying to figure out Shirou's recent posts.

I'm on the left coast and usually sleep in, so there was a lot to wake up to in this game.

I'll have some thoughts after another cup of coffee, probs.

fwiw there was a post Shirou made on Day 1 that caused me to just townbin him and assume he's wrongheaded about a few things.

[morph the cat]

If I'm scum doing this I would already be cornered. You all would lose little from no eliminating for one day.

If I'm town though, you're massively shooting yourselves on the foot by not no eliminating one day for me to get the result.

Do you think redtea ever gets copped?

Do you think redtea ever contributes enough content to be readable?

[morph the cat]

the idea that you're willing to bet the game on me being scum without knowing redtea's alignment is just so contrived

Why should I be townreading you?

[morph the cat]

the idea that you're willing to bet the game on me being scum without knowing redtea's alignment is just so contrived

Why should I be townreading you?

the question is not why should you be townreading me

the question is why should you be townreading redtea

I'm willing to accept some level of paranoia around me being this great scum player who fools people and has his way when he's scum. what's annoying to me is that I can't seem to get my most confident scumread flipped despite virtually everyone agreeing that they're

not playing the damn game

let me at least TRY to hand this town at least one scum

We're not townreading redtea? We declared intent ffs.

[morph the cat]

We're not townreading redtea? We declared intent ffs.

ok, I guess I don't understand the point of your question

why do you want me to towncase myself right now?

It was a reaction to your calling Shirou's POV regarding you/redtea as contrived.

It's not the first time you've used it, and it feels like a super-loaded term.

You're both taking really hard stances -- you on redtea's alignment and Shirou on yours.

I dunno that a hard stance on redtea's content actually makes sense.

[morph the cat]

it's a hard stance on both redtea's content and the POE strength by virtue of townreads elsewhere

also Enchant is town

What makes him town to you?

[morph the cat]

@morph, he replaced into the game and started posting and giving thoughts without even reading

his position on Shirou is fairly nuanced ("I like the no lim plan", "scum would claim early here") that doesn't reflect an agenda in how he wants to treat Shirou

and I played with him as scum not long ago in that White Flag game we've mentioned a few times and he was a lot more disengaged and awkward, I'm he repped into that one too so maybe I'll go back and check his entry but this doesn't vibe how I remember him as scum

altogether it doesn't feel to me like the way scum would behave on entering a game with a bit of a delicate/tricky gamestate

I agree with a lot of this. My experience with Enchant is solely as a mod/spectator, though neuterhalf was in a large normal game where Enchant was scum and might have thoughts when work calms down for him.

His scum play in the Shakespeare game looked pretty weak, but that could have been a fluke-ish situation of replacing into a scum slot that had a few scumreads accumulated.

This is a similar situation of replacing into a slot that had accumulated some scumreads, with a different approach.

[morph the cat]

I think that puts redtea at E-1.

Amazonians are still catching up so let's not hammer.

[morph the cat]

UNVOTE: redtea

I suddenly wanted Morph dead. Idk why.

We posted intent yesterday when redtea first went to E-1 and we've been arguing to wait for Amazonians since that time.

I asked your predecessor to unvote yesterday and she just did more trolling about it.

So, thanks for the unvote!

[morph the cat]

All of you just slow down ffs.

[morph the cat]

Man, getting this wagon through has been like pulling teeth.

I don't understand how this is in reference to the morph comment.

Please expound.

[morph the cat]

UNVOTE: redtea

I suddenly wanted Morph dead. Idk why.

We posted intent yesterday when redtea first went to E-1 and we've been arguing to wait for Amazonians since that time.

I asked your predecessor to unvote yesterday and she just did more trolling about it.

So, thanks for the unvote!

My predecessor did right if you can't persuade atleast one from 5 ppl to unvote.


I am actually considering alternative to chop someone else, but i find it unlikely people will follow.

Don't tempt fate with E-1 if you don't want someone dead btw.

I guess Ydra wanted redtea dead?

[morph the cat]

Enchant has won me over.

[morph the cat]

Enchant has won me over.

This isn't really good, though, because ugh my reads.

{Amazonians, fua, cephrir)
{numberQ}
{enchant, Shirou, Tejate}
{GL, Implo}
{redtea}

enchant being this high makes my null reads basically drop into the range of "if either are town then this whole reads list sucks".

[morph the cat]

Eh. that's an exaggeration. I don't think I ever reexamine the top four.

[morph the cat]

???

[morph the cat]

GL-implo-redtea would be a deeply amazing scumteam.

Also you forgot Meg.

I did.

Meg's on the enchant level but I'm not sure it's warranted at this point.

[morph the cat]

sorry, not aligned together should be not scum-aligned together. they can definitely still be T-T

Pretty sure everyone undermeant what you stood.

[morph the cat]

NGL I'd hoped that Penguin-Ceph would become a snarky sarcastic trollface solving powerhouse of a dynamic duo.....

And then I'd just proxy our vote there and ride off into the sunset.

2022 off to a sucky start for my hopes and dreams.

[morph the cat]

No, I get what Mega is saying. I'm actually paranoid of the Amazons for the same reason.

You should be paranoid of me. I’m very scary scum player RAWR!

Aww.

You probably are? I don't believe this is the game I play against scum you, though, for a mountain of reasons.

[morph the cat]

Morph - do you have an updated read on raichu? I’m know you made a post with reads a few pages ago but wondering where your thoughts are there.

Yeah, kinda. He's below all the players I have claim/results reasons to townread, but is maybe(?) my strongest townread outside that group based mostly on how he's played today since he stopped putting his effort into defense.

[morph the cat]

He's not a true newbie. But iirc most of his experience is in discord and f2f games. Might be mixing him up with another player from the 2085 newbie game. I'll check on that when I'm at my laptop tomorrow.

[morph the cat]

Commenting was pretty much a blazing signal to morph that we were taking responsibility for the lack of kill in a way that I couldn't have backed out of.

This message was received loud and clear, as evidenced by our early day 2 posting. Megs if you (or anyone) doesn't see that in our posting lmk and I'll dig up the specific posts.

[morph the cat]

interesting mix on/off of my wagon

Great observation. Can we look forward to your thoughts on the mix in your next eagerly awaited post?

[morph the cat]

it's like sitting on the lake shore trying to spot nessie

It's truly the homeopathic remedy of content.

[morph the cat]

Oh, also, I really liked GL's snap-Enchant-town read.

Does anyone have a list of claimed PRs going? I have a theory that might be relevant the more I think on it.

--PA

Amazons N1 doc, saved fua
Fua, Cop (not N1, otherwise unclaimed)
NumberQ, N1 cop, inno on cephrir
Shirou, N3 Cop, iirc?

If there's others I forgot.

[morph the cat]

Oh, also, I really liked GL's snap-Enchant-town read.

Does anyone have a list of claimed PRs going? I have a theory that might be relevant the more I think on it.

--PA

Same.

I don't know if Implosion's points about GL's lack of paranoia being AI, but it's one of the differences I'm seeing in GL's posts this game vs the holiday dancegame.

This game is pretty low energy compared to that one, though, and I think energetic pile-ons usually create energetic reactions.

Also I share the mood regarding the sheer density of posting in this game.

[morph the cat]

unless you believe Amazonian is also scum

I would literally self-vote in xylim under the assumption that Spay gave me a fake town role PM than vote Amazonians at any point in this game levels of they're town.

Which is why i'm lock-towning the shit out of Fua too.

[morph the cat]

I just discount (4) because Penguin's not capable to my knowledge of faking the smugness radiating from her first few posts of day two.

[morph the cat]

Overall I've actually liked a number of nQ's posts better than day 1, regardless of the claim.

This is the kind of posting what I'm thinking that happened a lot in the newbie game.

--------------

My opinion of paranoia takes is please don't infect me.

[morph the cat]

I wish I knew what implosions scum game looked like, but a few times today I’ve just thought I don’t think implosion scum does this. Like for instance, the way that implosion is handling guilty lion with the purposefully biased case. I didn’t like or buy into a lot of the case. Some parts, especially in part one, were a bit nit picky. I’ve changed my mind multiple times on a read in less than 7 minutes, so things like that didn’t resonate. GL not being paranoid is eh. I don’t know if he is usually, and not entirely sure whatthere is to be paranoid about right now. The points I did like was the push on the strength of the red tea read and the turn around on imaginality. Thought there was another one, but my brains failing me. Anyway those two points were the most salient to me. (Though for me I also disliked the bargaining and thought it made him likely scum, so I understand How someone could think that way). I think the town read on redtea is a bit overdone for someone weak reasons, even if he’s right, I just don’t buy into the optics argument that much when not coupled with other things. But why go to bat for redtea to that extent as scum. He’s not trying to stop the elimination so that he can probably fit in anyway unless the argument is that he’s trying to keep his hands clean. I also like the kind of appealing he’s been doing to shirou, thinking they’re gelling and wanting him to be town.

So yeah I just don’t know that that ^ is implosions scum game. I don’t see the agenda that others have claimed. Yesterday after mega voted ydrasse, I said to penguin that maybe she was scum after all and everyone else is seeing something that I’m not, but with enchants posts that might not be the case and my early town read on ydrasse was right. I feel the same with implosion. He doesn’t look like scum to me but with other people’s suspicion I’m like what am I missing?

Such mood. If I'm wrong about my top four/five or so I'm gonna cry, but below that hellifiknow.

Cabd wants to make you/Ceph a double voter and I don't object at all.

[morph the cat]

I'm not mad at the vote, but unless I missed something, that was hammer?

Had hoped Morph-Amazonians would have a chance to all four be current with the game and talking, but alas.

[morph the cat]

Oh right, 7 to elim.

That's E-1 again.

[morph the cat]

I was kinda hoping redtea would offer a little more than "hmm yes the game state is interesting" with no elaboration. Oh well. I have no problem with a hammer right about now.

What leads you to think this is an attainable hope?

I'm NOT suggesting a hammer. Not until Tammyhydra is ready to end it.

[morph the cat]

The treatese of the 2020 scumteam called. Something about having made that point already.

[morph the cat]

We have achieved the highest possible quality sync ifyaknowwhateemean

[morph the cat]

I was kinda hoping redtea would offer a little more than "hmm yes the game state is interesting" with no elaboration. Oh well. I have no problem with a hammer right about now.

What leads you to think this is an attainable hope?

I'm NOT suggesting a hammer. Not until Tammyhydra is ready to end it.

Nothing, it just hurts my soul a little when people just give up in mafia. Unless you're literally mechconfirmed evil and there's nothing you can say to your benefit, I think people should at least try in situations like this. I have not seen any such effort from redtea, so it just disappoints me a bit.

But like I freaked out about this post being TMI but then realized you meant giving up as either alignment sucks and yeah. It kind of does.


I hope we are in universe A and not universe B here.

[morph the cat]

World a is that redtea scum is just clamming up because he's not capable of antispew very well

World b? Redtea is town pulling this absolute dog shit example of play and the universe is out to get us this game

[morph the cat]

Oh shit I hope that wording wasn't too bad shit sorry redtea didn't sound that bad in my head.

[morph the cat]

go to sleep neuterhalf.

[morph the cat]

And that is why we asked for time to talk to them before the hammer, even though red tea had effectively scum claimed.

Re-reading day one with alignments in mind.

[morph the cat]

Yawn.

Keep the shitty gambits to closed setups, por favor.

I'm literally the king of those, but there's a time and a place.

[morph the cat]

Your post advocates a(n)

( ) technical ( ) legislative (X) fake-claiming ( ) vigilante

approach to fighting mafia. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which vary from game to game.)

(X) The worst case scenario vastly outranks the best case scenarios
(X) Fakeclaiming a result in an open setup is straight up against your own win condition
(X) Going through with this won't actually help you sort anyone else
(X) It is going to stiffle discussion
(X) It just gives scum more info
(X) Players will blacklist you for it
( ) You will get modkilled for it
( ) This puts us way too close to xylim
( ) Requires too much cooperation from other players
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
(X) Many players cannot afford to claim when they could still be useful if hidden
(X) Massclaim is bad and should feel bad.


Specifically, your plan fails to account for

(X) Mafia fakeclaims being incredibly easy
(X) Lack of an actual result
( ) This setup already has safeguards against that
( ) Closed setups can have wacky shit
(X) Trolls who fakeclaim as town can throw everything off
( ) Players died trying to stop this
(X) Unpopularity of gambits such as these
(X) Player reluctance to massclaim early
(X) Existing investments in more traditional scumhunting methods
(X) Susceptibility of players to tunnel vision into a 1v1 that could be T-T
(X) Willingness of players to sit on their own reads and opinions
( ) An arms race of evolving claims is going to be a trainwreck
(X) Emotions exist


and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

(X) Gambits similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet very few are ever a good thing in the long term
(X) Fake guilties suck
( ) Fake innocents suck
(X) Why should we have to trust your reads?
( ) Incompatibility with proper play
( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough

Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
(X) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
house down!