Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Ausuka]

Frogster Things

Like playing the game well? What

You are often difficult to understand and DV obviously knows this and has made comments around it, eg

I think with Frogster there is risk of dismissing him as town because he’s weird

[Ausuka]

I think we definitely said his name at least three times

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history is cool though

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>.>I

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Bruh

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I'm just hoping that the slot will contain someone

[Ausuka]

hmm

maybe both wagons are right

[Ausuka]

idk what to do with obscure tbh

might just throw them in the hem pool of 'they won't endgame and can die at some point unless they get confirmed'

[Ausuka]

VOTE: obscure

Whatever I'm just tired

[Ausuka]

i mean maybe but idk what else to do with that slot? do you think they *should* endgame?

[Ausuka]

hi good morning

i have the day off today so might be able to give my fire thoughts but not sure it will amount to a case because like

if I thought I had a real case there I would be pushing there harder than I am

I think he's probably the most likely player in the game to be scum though

[Ausuka]

ok i'm here to DO STUFF

does anyone have any stuff for me to do otherwise i'm just gonna vibe around and do my own thing

[Ausuka]

i will try and make a fire post tsq don't worry

[Ausuka]

My thoughts on fireisredsir

- I was scumleaning them on d1. This was because they felt purposefully noncommital, especially around Ari in posts like 590 or 658. Looking back now, I don't think this point is as strong as I did back then - there is some backpedalling going on but Ari is scary in general and I don't think it's that consistent of a theme.

-I didn't really like their presence on FB and Eiralox because I thought they were both super easy pushes that created the impression of doing stuff and posting content without actually doing a whole lot for town. I still think this, and especially that the push on eiralox was kind of eh. Like - I think he was just drowning in post count and the nature of the large theme game, and I think it's pretty clear that in general his normal behaviour is going to be different to his behaviour where he's light years behind and has no idea what was going on. So in particular I think their push on Eira was uncharitable and potentially was initiated with the desire to build a wagon and making Fire look proactive?

- I think 1127 looks like town, because they seem to be leaving stuff on the table w/ Relly where I expect scum to, like, try make the pushes they feel like they can make at least somewhat genuinely?

- they were one of the people in ari's reads post. I don't think this matters too much? But it's a factor that I'm looking at because she had 5 scumreads and according to Scamper's Very Reliable Sources Datisi is town, and so fire and S_S as the other slots she was scumreading (CMM was wrong and VPB was right) should get a bit more scrutiny than other slots in my opinion. I also feel like Firebringer slot was scumread generically by people whereas Fireisredsir's slot was a lot more, deepwolfy? And so it would make more sense to kill to protect it.

- I don't like their progression on shea d2. I think coming into the day scumreading that slot (whereas d1 they seemed to strike an extremely neutral tone at all times), flipping around to a townlean and then going back to being cool w/ the Shea wagon feels... off to me. To elaborate; 3416 shows that they are leaning town on Shea - for what I consider to be good reasons, like that the way Shea progresses his reads is towny, and then just, pivots away from acknowledging that and leave it, eg in 3483 where they ask for scamper's thoughts on their point about shea - only to say they are cool with the shea wagon *before scamper even responds*. I know they do emphasise their uncertainty in that post but I don't know if that makes it better for me. I feel like they really emphasised that uncertainty to just an extreme degree because they wanted Shea to be eliminated at some point and didn't feel it was strategic to make a defense there? Because I feel like this is a good point they're making and they just forget all about it and go back to pushing Shea way too easily imo.

- I don't like 4844. I said I couldn't explain why at the time, mostly because it was a gut reaction, but I can give it a go - part of the reason it feels so slimy to me is that they're strongly pushing the narrative to look for scum off the hem wagon when they were someone who jumped on it. Something about the combination of doing x -> arguing that scum would never do x so quickly just bothers me. This wouldn't really matter if I thought this post from fire also makes sense coming from town, but I don't really think it does - sure, scum don't just hop on town wagons all the time, but they don't just avoid them either and I feel like fire knows this. I feel strongly the right answer is to look for scum both on and off the HEM wagon and I expect them to say this instead of acting like scum would just never turn around and jump on a wagon in that way.

- I also didn't like 5146. I also find this one hard to verbalise. I suppose it doesn't really seem natural - of course, it's always a possibility that duelling wagons are both red, but I don't understand what they're trying to do just bringing up this possibility. It feels like they're pretty much willing to push whoever's viable - which yes sounds like a surface level reason to scumread someone, but consider
1) while doing this they have been advocating that scum wouldn't play in this manner and have likely been playing around that
2) pushing eliminations is just... good for scum, and if endgaming isn't specifically the highest priority on their agenda right now - for example, if they had a partner more townread to them - I think it makes more sense to aggressively try to advance the scum wincon, while also not really creating associatives by pushing back against any wagons that might actually be scum
3) maybe this goes too deep into theory but like, I don't think you can really say "scum wouldn't be opportunistic because that burns their towncred" if you advocate that being opportunistic shouldn't lose people towncred???

- I think their interactions with VPB can be s/s easily. 162 feels kinda distancey but that's early game so whatever. 519 is kind of discouraging me from pushing VPB, which slightly rubs me the wrong way but again whatever. The main point that makes me think this is Not Good is that they seem to not really address VPB for most of the day or while he was being pushed?? Like, they scumread VPB starting in 2264 but by that point I think CMM and Dann were kinda just the duelling wagons? And any danger to VPB had passed. VPB seems to ask fire a few questions but like, I'm not sure there's much of substance there? Their interactions aren't positive, but don't really seem to be threatening to each other either. I think their interactions are +scum for fire here.

- I'm putting this at the back because I don't feel super confident on this point and feel sort of dumb bringing it up, but it kind of feels like they were encouraging me to scumread marci?? in 624 when I say town marci would feel more tonally spunky they say "I could buy that." This really does not mean anything on its own but when combined with 3096 where they do the same thing on d2, and their overall progression on marci - they call her town early d1, drop that and pretty much hold her as a consistent scumread without really justifying it at all - I think it feels suspicious.

I'm tired and finishing this early; I think there are maybe some points to be made in fire's favour that I haven't really pondered too much here, like read fluidity is generally an indicator of town and even though I think it could be scum motivated in this case I don't *know* how reliable that is because I don't think I've ever read a slot as playing scum in this manner before? But overall I think fire is pretty scummy yeah and I'm tired so I'm leaving it here, I think it's long enough as it is. Sorry for not being articulate as was hoped, but at least I didn't do nothing right?

[Ausuka]

holy shit that took too long im going to bed

[Ausuka]

- I don't like 4844. I said I couldn't explain why at the time, mostly because it was a gut reaction, but I can give it a go - part of the reason it feels so slimy to me is that they're strongly pushing the narrative to look for scum off the hem wagon when they were someone who jumped on it. Something about the combination of doing x -> arguing that scum would never do x so quickly just bothers me. This wouldn't really matter if I thought this post from fire also makes sense coming from town, but I don't really think it does - sure, scum don't just hop on town wagons all the time, but they don't just avoid them either and I feel like fire knows this. I feel strongly the right answer is to look for scum both on and off the HEM wagon and I expect them to say this instead of acting like scum would just never turn around and jump on a wagon in that way.

---

- I'm putting this at the back because I don't feel super confident on this point and feel sort of dumb bringing it up, but it kind of feels like they were encouraging me to scumread marci?? in 624 when I say town marci would feel more tonally spunky they say "I could buy that." This really does not mean anything on its own but when combined with 3096 where they do the same thing on d2, and their overall progression on marci - they call her town early d1, drop that and pretty much hold her as a consistent scumread without really justifying it at all - I think it feels suspicious.

what posts are these? neither 4844 nor 3096 are fire's posts. i'm trying to find them in fire's iso, but i'm tired and not really succeeding in that

other than this, def think the case could have some merit, but i'd like to sleep on it first

ugh i feel really bad. this is why you don't wallpost while sleep deprived kids

4484 and 3097 is what i mean

[Ausuka]

- I don't like 4844. I said I couldn't explain why at the time, mostly because it was a gut reaction, but I can give it a go - part of the reason it feels so slimy to me is that they're strongly pushing the narrative to look for scum off the hem wagon when they were someone who jumped on it. Something about the combination of doing x -> arguing that scum would never do x so quickly just bothers me. This wouldn't really matter if I thought this post from fire also makes sense coming from town, but I don't really think it does - sure, scum don't just hop on town wagons all the time, but they don't just avoid them either and I feel like fire knows this. I feel strongly the right answer is to look for scum both on and off the HEM wagon and I expect them to say this instead of acting like scum would just never turn around and jump on a wagon in that way

(4484)
i didn't say any of this tho? nowhere did i say that scum would never do x or that scum wouldn't be on the hem wagon

i said that scum who had a strong townread on hem making the choice to flip that read to a scumread and vote hem would need a strongly motivating reason to make that choice. i 100% stand by this. scum often struggle with inertia and for most scum players it's rare that they'll want to flip their read without good reason bc it draws a lot of attention

i also said that i had trouble imagining what world there could be that would provide scum with a sufficiently powerful motivating factor to do that based on the gamestate at the time

this wasn't like a major thought, i don't think i ever based any reads off it, i was just kinda pondering what i would expect scum to do (and basing it on what i felt i would do in that position if i were scum and hem was town) since that was the current topic of conversation

i can respond to this better tomorrow but

i feel like what i said is more or less accurate? like, you're pushing that scum are people who stayed off hem's wagon and that we should yeet those people because they held out their vote 'for no good reason'

sure scum -can- have inertia but i just really disagree that scum aren't also often opportunistic? like, scum do very much pivot and change their reads when convenient imo and i think it's unlikely you think otherwise?

i guess if i have time i could look into your meta to see if this is a position you, like, consistently hold. i think it's a pretty useful line of argument to push if you are playing as opportunistic scum, which if you're red seems to be your style, which is the point i'm trying to make

pedit: i see you responded again but im really sorry but i have to sleep now i dont think i can keep going

[Ausuka]

good morning

uh i'll type up responses to fire at some point

i was townreading gamma mostly but if morning tweet is polarised that wagon seems fine

zzz

[Ausuka]

VOTE: obscure

Whatever I'm just tired

join me and kill fire.

I am willing to do this if we have numbers which i do not think we do

[Ausuka]

i would be Interested in hearing from ausuka on fire

i'd also be fine with letting nero lead because i think he's town and clearly me trying to have things my way is not going great

i guess i'd also like to hear what u think of it?

why don't you just make one yourself

cuz I'm lazy, less articulate, and less likely to be given credence from other people.

sorry my post probably did not meet your standards

[Ausuka]

VOTE: tweet

Tweet does rhyme with yeet actually

I guess I could post more stuff today but I'm lazy and like... Tweet is in her scum meta apparently and CSF is self resolving... Whatever

[Ausuka]

yeah i forgor about enchant too sorry lol

I also think elimming now is roughly fine but we should probably have tweet claim? Unless gamma already did and i'm forgetting that too but I don't think so

[Ausuka]

That's my english flair coming thru

I can confirm this is how english people talk sometimes

As for the claim... idk lol it's probably scum

Idk how much we lose by letting it live another night so I'm conflicted

[Ausuka]

I would probably prefer deas over SS

[Ausuka]

I mean I think we should eliminate her tomorrow if she's not confirmed so her vote will not be super powerful

Normally I wouldn't hesitate to say we should wagon somewhere else but we don't have much time left and I'm not sure I want a rushed EOD and if she's super polarised anyway is it even worth it???

[Ausuka]

how is everyone doing today

[Ausuka]

that's cool! i hope you enjoy the waffle and have a lot of good toppings

i'm still settling in at my new uni. just got a lunch deal with a sausage sandwich, salt and vinegar crisps, and Oasis drink. not as special as a waffle but tastes alright at least! i also bought some groceries for this week which still has a little bit of novelty for me though i'm sure it'll wear off quickly

[Ausuka]

i can't believe the br*tphobia is so rampant on ms dot net

(for legal reasons this is not a joke)

[Ausuka]

wait no i meant to take out the asterisk

[Ausuka]

i can't believe the britphobia is so rampant on ms dot net

(for legal reasons this is not a joke)

[Ausuka]

ty

salt & vinegar is a good flavor, i hope u enjoy ur lunch

thanks I did indeed enjoy this

(I'm also not sure what was so english about that post? Do you guys not have sausage sandwiches or something)

[Ausuka]

bratphobia

[Ausuka]

I was thinking town MT would have said something but I guess she might just have not come online??

[Ausuka]

I thought Gamma was town mostly but I feel like I didn't tell you to stop scumreading him? Will I be spared the booty dance

[Ausuka]

Hi I'm extremely tired

I was thinking overnight and I was kind of townleaning SS because part of the reason I scumread VPB was that the push on FB looks opportunistic

But also like scum are 25% of the game and sometimes I am going to scumread scum for bad reasons so maybe that's dumb?

I don't really know how to read s_s but like, I will try and iso him again and see if I can find anything useful

[Ausuka]

VOTE: datisi

I think a policy is in order smh

[Ausuka]

mwahahaha

[Ausuka]

hi mena

uh, CSF is even night vig, dats is cleared by scamper

I would iso S_S and fire?

[Ausuka]

dats is cleared by scamper

i was hoping this part wouldn't get brought up, because seeing how mena reads me is one of my used-to-be-successful ways of reading him, but okay

sorry?

[Ausuka]

I agree Nero is like very rarely wolf

Frogster is an enigma to me but I will try and iso him soon after I do my gamma iso!

[Ausuka]

i’m the deepwolf

Less deep and more if you haven't resolved yourself the day before ELO we throw you off a bridge I think

[Ausuka]

No don't do that I will be sad

[Ausuka]

Don't worry Mena I already know you're scum with SS

[Ausuka]

My interpretation of this situation is that there is almost no way for Mena to be town

I want to continue the day for a bit though

[Ausuka]

Yes scum probably have a doctor

I was the scum dats cheerleader but like

With roles like gunsmith I always feel like, is it ever really worth eliminating the soft inno? Like if they're mechanically probably town isn't that more worth considering than most people's reads

Idk

[Ausuka]

I am a fool and a sucker

[Ausuka]

Please tell me the datisi clear was not in fact a reaction test

[Ausuka]

T3 made this game as a reaction test

Also we can be friends I guess Mena I feel like your response was probably town

If you betray me I will cry

[Ausuka]

it would be funny if mena were a mafia doctor

Please no more

[Ausuka]

you could say eliminating him would be

something smart

[Ausuka]

you could say eliminating him would be

something smart

do you still think im scum btw

its ok if u do im just wondering cause you seemed p convinced on it earlier but you haven't mentioned it in a while

yes

i am not doing anything productive until i read gamma iso which is effort

i am scheduling that for tonight

[Ausuka]

I also think it was not that long ago? I mean, I think it wasn't that long before the night started right

[Ausuka]

that is true and I will re evaluate with gamma in mind

[Ausuka]

ok i'm really sorry

i wanted to do gamma iso tonight

i am not doing well rn and i don't think i can

is there anything specific someone wants me to comment on

thanks

[Ausuka]

i was leaning town on mena's reaction on scamper

in general was not a big fan of obscure, but now we have someone active in that slot it's like

i guess i will wait and see what he does

[Ausuka]

Hi I'm ausuka and this is my Gamma Emerald associatives post

ok for most of early game i am honestly kind of struggling to take much from gamma's iso here

I think 1325 is maybe anti associative with ydrasse?

I feel like Dannflor might be in The Claire Zone where my read on him is predominantly determined by how he reads me

This strikes me as a nor-very-intuitive thing to say about your buddy??

Why isn't Gamma pushing me based on tone yet?

OHOHOHO!
I’m not pushing you on tone because that’s a lie you deluded yourself into thinking is true, that I tone read you and am always wrong on it! In addition, I did not scumread you the past 6 straight games we’ve played, I actually solved you as town in mini 2238 before you pushed me out.

nero is probably town but I already thought that so whatever

VOTE: Gamma Emerald this is a scum slot I think

HEMs early stuff I thought town and also VP but a few things struck me as off from both and I would like to look back properly at both.
I don't particularly think FB is town but I can wait for him to kick into gear for now and he's done enough that I am not auto scumreading so I don't want to vote there right now.
I am interested in seeing more of Xof's iso dives to see what kind of content is there
I will look at some stuff in the morning. I'm trying to just chuck down rough notes so I don't have to start fresh so I appreciate this is a bit halfhazard.

I don't like how cagey this feels and I don't like the excuses for:

• *Not expanding on the VP and HEM reads
  *Posting in order to use the thread as a notepad

At this rate I'll say there's probably a scum in Gamma, xo, Conman

This isn't Gamma but I found this while checking the context of one of her posts and I think this is a good look for Frog - specifically the part where he calls Gamma out for not expanding on her read on VP, I'm not sure how likely scum is to make that association?

What are the cases for GL/relly?

Might be too surface level but this makes me think max one scum in GL/relly lole

1813 seems +town and slightly +scum for SS and fire?

1841 is more nero town fodder

i do like the overlap in townreads that most of the people i townread have

maybe willing to just trust scamper's gamma read

definitely willing to find two ish people that are consensus scumread by the towncore and wagon em up and get things moving

frogster seems to be doing good work and being protown. tbh i live in fear that the other shoe will drop at any moment but i do think he's probably town here and i like the approach he's taking so far

What are your own thoughts on me?

This feels like a partner interaction to me. When this is done I want to ctrl+f fire in Gamma's iso and vice versa and see if this is true holistically.

VOTE: gamma emerald
Fuck this game.

can u not

I feel like a lot of the push against me is in bad faith so I kinda think flipping me would be good to force everyone on me to cover their asses for it

This feels extremely unlikely to be scum with scamper to me

I don't know how to word it but 2477 ~feels~ not scum with frog either? Probably the best way to put it is this looks more like TMI than a partner read?

My understanding is that it's a pain in the ass to do.

Why not just create a new account and ask for it to be made your new main?

Why are you talking about this instead of literally anything else

I don't think this is s/s because it feels like Shea is genuinely frustrated here?

I don't want to link all the posts but Gamma's responses to Shea continue to feel genuinely pressed and defensive and it does not feel like distancing to me.

Counterpoint: no scumteam makes a kill to protect me after I rep in. Especially if I'm repping into a suspicious slot (which seems to be the case).

this feels like a curious point to make?

This feels like it could be a buddy post??

redfire what are your reads rn?

prob most interested in looking for scum in dann, shea, SS, marci rn. a slight level below that would be xofelf and gamma

strongest TRs on ausuka, scamper, you. not quite as strong on datisi, hem, obscure, ydra, frog. then DV and GL are kinda weak townleans ig

i think thats everyone

okay this is funny
our strongest TRs line up but aside from that there's notable variance
I think I'll pencil in fire as town for this

Ok no I do not like this at ALL

I will have to remind myself of why fire townread gamma and why but eww

The interaction quoted in 4214 seems sorta softball from Gamma to S_S? Like, he says he wants to look into S_S, doesn't really question him that hard, then goes and votes him for reasons that aren't super clear?

Ok based on this my priorities are to look at fire and S_S again and their interactions with gamma whee

I will probably try and catch up on d3 first tho

[Ausuka]

hi some of that was sorta rushed because I am behind on today so feedback is appreciated

[Ausuka]

I didn't really take much notice of gamma's interactions with obscure honestly but I think 5627 is good

[Ausuka]

The amount of indecision people are showing on me is fascinating. I don't know if I've ever seen it before.

I'll be indecisive if I want to be

[Ausuka]

You don't think Tweet would do more if it was their job to carry the team?

not really, no

repping into a scum slot in a 200 page game wuld be demotivating for most players and tweet isnt especially motivated as scum. if her teams not doing well i culd easily see her phoning it in. i dont think trying to base reads off that sole event is likely to be too useful

fwiw I think this is completely true and wouldn't expect a polarised player like tweet to try and hard carry on replacing like that

(there are so many pages wtf are you guys ok with me spamming or do I need to wall AGAIN)

[Ausuka]

No way I would tell MT to put up a neon sign saying "I'm scum trying to live one more day" and then

not

try to reap any towncred from her wagon after she did so.

I agree. I'm not sure exactly what I would do to "reap towncred from the wagon", but I'm sure it would be something. Certainly not just 5458.

My favorite scum tactic is to do something that looks like there'd be absolutely no reason to do it as scum. I probably would have argued more strongly that she should be given a day to confirm? But maybe that would have been too heavy-handed.

I mean, didn't you say that when asked to self meta as scum you tell the truth and then hope town don't realise it applies to this game

[Ausuka]

Like are we not going to talk about frogsterkings play at the end of the day at all? We're just going to go right back to something smart when frogsterking did basically "try to save my buddy and then hammer when it becomes clear I cant 101"

I thought frog had good associatives with gamma on Gamma's end at least

After reading this I went back to read Frog's play around tweet and I don't really think that he tried to save Tweet, nor do I think scum would necessarily have tried to save her in that situation?

I do agree that scum hammer their buddies relatively often and it's not a bad point but like, idk, I think there are more reasons to townread Frog right now

For reference, 4912 was me figuring out that it was odd/even vigs.

I have a terrible memory but I feel like tweet's claim might be an indicator that scum also figured out the odd/even situation? At least partially

I mean I definitely think Tweet being bussed is a possibility and I'd be a little surprised if there wasn't a scum on the wagon

but I'm not sure it super felt like a scum driven wagon

the speed with which it came up kinda felt more like, hey the day is close to ending and town found something to settle on and feel kinda good about

so with that context I'm not sure scum would necessarily be in a great position to bus and I wouldn't necessarily assume Tweet was "heavily" bussed yesterday

I sort of disagree in that if Tweet has a super polarised meta, like, that slot is DOA and scum have no reason *not* to bus her in that situation? I also tend to think scum are inclined to bus on average

I think 5692 is a good point

I think 5694 is not a very good point

I have no idea what frog's talking about with the dann/scamper thing, although I don't think it is scummy

@Mena; can you tell me about your experience with Datisi while you were on the site? Like his skill as both alignments especially, I was not around for most of it

[Ausuka]

i appreciate my emotions being validated over ausuka’s but i don’t find that really exonerating for the slot

it's because I've secretly resented ausuka for the last 3 years bc she modded my first ever game on mafiascum(dot)net and failed to warn me that I would be trapped here thereafter

VOTE: Menalque

that is a hardclaim, btw

If the word hardclaim ever meant anything, it no longer does

fb was lowkey nowhere near excited enough about the game (esp in a Pl that he likes and knows people in) to be scum, it's just a couple of jokes and a lot of bland and then I assume he repped out

I've seen him in scum games and I'm pretty sure that after my first hiatus he was scum in a game that skitter and S_S (and lowkey maybe you?) were also in, and while I think town won I think he was convincingly a lot more engaged for a long time than he normally is as town

oh shit yes i was there, that's right

I do not know firebringer and if this is a meta tell people actually use I feel like a list of 'people firebringer knows' would be very helpful

Re: 5814; I see where you're coming from here but like idk, when I was looking through that ISO it didn't come off as distancing to me at all? At least not on Gamma's end. I think specifically discussing Gamma-VP interactions comes off as not s/s. I think the proxy reads thing being so experimental is, like, slightly +town because in general I think you want to be trying shiny new scumhunting techniques in town games. I agree 2116 doesn't look much like a buddy post.

I think the point about frog not considering my relly read is pretty good and I want to go back and review the context around that

Bold of you to assume there's only one vig.

HMM.

:thinkign:

pedit: currently fire and I do not think shea should be in the pool

[Ausuka]

ok i'm really sorry

i wanted to do gamma iso tonight

i am not doing well rn and i don't think i can

is there anything specific someone wants me to comment on

thanks

Take care of yourself pls. It's a game on the internet it will be ok.

<3

[Ausuka]

Is this what you're seeing D2, Nero?

possibly. I actually really hate his explanation in 5350.

Not impossible that it's just a bad read but its still

i mean obviously it is Not Correct but I think 5350 seems fine

[Ausuka]

do you guys think its only 4 scum, right?

I think there is realistically pretty much no way to tell if there are 4 or 5 scum in a game of this size.

A traitor is probably more likely if that matters

pedit: lmao I hope not??

[Ausuka]

That is not a hammer fuck you

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Ydrasse

I will kill you for this

[Ausuka]

Nero, Ausuka,

Why isn't TSQ here?

I'm also not the biggest fan of Ausuka. She pushed VP and Dats and has felt like she's just floating in the wind.

I really do not think I have been floating in the wind here????

Why is pushing VP bad.

[Ausuka]

no scumreads after 6k posts................

I actually think this is more likely to be +town than anything

pedit: I mean yeah it did? You said "as scum I would do something where I could act like I'd never do it as scum" and then did that exact thing?

[Ausuka]

zzz

i don't *love* guiltylion's interactions with the gamma slot in like, total, but

maybe i'm not smart

but i feel like scum!guilty would be positioning himself better? and like, i know his usual scum m.o. is like, push bullshit distance with buddies and like, i don't get the vibe that he's done some Very Heavy Lifting to vote townies out, i don't feel like he's done well enough to protect his partners, i don't feel like he's positioned himself well

like, this kinda stuff traditionally feels "scummy" but i'm not sure i can read guiltylion "traditionally" in good faith

Fwiw i have felt that GL is strongly town at various points

I don't think I've ever seen a scum lion and maybe I do need to re evaluate him but like

I liked how he pushed Baltar along with me d1 and in general has felt like a town presence in the thread and I can't see myself wanting to kill him before a lot of other players

pedit: but it was not a real claim

[Ausuka]

ok i went and dealt with my paranoia about ausuka

nvm about that if anyone cared

What happened?

Ausuka's WIM has fallen off a lot and I think that can happen a lot with deep wolf positions and then just no one ever reevaluates

but I reread and decided my fears were unfounded

Fwiw i think my wim falling off correlates to when I started university?

I am still trying to do things but it is not as easy to hyperpost now

[Ausuka]

i was hoping that s_s would have some sorta comment on this if i just kept bringing it up, but it doesn't seem like he will

s_s, what is this post lol

What's to comment on? It was a joke that ended up being prescient.

VOTE: ss

[Ausuka]

A Wall no one will read

I'm actually not a big fan of the fire case and I'm not even sure that Ausuka even puts that much stock into it.

After I started writing this I noticed that it was titled

My thoughts on fireisredsir

and it wasn't necessarily a scumcase.

I mean, I don't think fire is certain scum or anything. The points I make are my thoughts, that's all I can say. In fairness it actually was not intended to be a scumcase at first, although it did kind of end up becoming one.

Not a big fan of the Eiralox point. Like I get it, scum push a mislimable slot b/c it's EZ but

she

wasn't alone on Eira so I'm not sure why that's scummier for redfire than Frog or anyone else who jumped.

I mean sure it doesn't sound great when you isolate it like that. My point was for a substantial period of time these pushes on FB and on Eiralox were his main contribution of the thread and I don't think they helped town really. I think seeing the pressure there and jumping on the wagon is fine and not that scummy.

it's pretty clear that in general his normal behaviour is going to be different to his behaviour where he's light years behind and has no idea what was going on.

I also really don't like this line. Other than putting down Eira's ability I just generally disagree that his play would be different than the mini that me, you, and Frog played in. I do agree that it's possible that he saw the post count and noped out of this thread.

I don't think this puts down his ability in any way. I think looking at his ISO it's just really clear that he was not able to keep up with the thread, and I'm sort of baffled by the idea that this wouldn't make his play very different compared to the mini normal.

If you want to argue that redfire is scum for switching

her

read on TSQ then fine, scum certainly do that but it's null b/c like...town does it all the time.

She

was also sheeping me on my points about Relly, and then agreeing that the way VP treated Relly was how VP has treated his scumbuddies in the past. You could maybe make the argument that redfire is just hiding behind my loud ass but I don't think that committing the sin of switching your read is more likely to come from scum than town.

I think this is overly reductive about what I'm saying. They're not scum just because "they switched their read" - I think they make a good point that would make Shea town and the way they dismiss it and move on doesn't seem believable to me, especially considering Shea is a convenient push to make for scum on d2.

Also, this is the second time you've come to the defense of the Relly/TSQ slot.

I mean I have clearly been townreading that slot for a long time?

[Ausuka]

I think we do not understand the information scum has available and therefore it is difficult to evaluate MT's claim

I also think given MT seems not to have, like, a massive amount of motivation for her wolfgame it is very possible she made her own claim without having a whole discussion in the scumchat first - I think in general scum aren't that co-ordinated

[Ausuka]

Nero, Ausuka,

Why isn't TSQ here?

I'm also not the biggest fan of Ausuka. She pushed VP and Dats and has felt like she's just floating in the wind.

I really do not think I have been floating in the wind here????

Why is pushing VP bad.

I never said that and I think that misrep pushback is kinda scummy but I sorta think you did that in our last game so....

I mean you say you don't like me and the first thing you bring up is that I pushed VP??

[Ausuka]

I mean that's a good example of how I have not been just floating in the wind but okay

[Ausuka]

I have five hundred posts I really have not been potatoing this game???

Whatever I feel like you just always scumread me

[Ausuka]

Apropos of nothing I just went to ausukas wiki and
"Hi I'm Ausuka. I don't play mafia outside of marathons anymore. Because of this there's no reason to list any game data here. If you see me playing mafia, please tell me to stop. I occasionally mod games and post on sitechat."

On no. But I do not want you to stop. You're the only one who thinks I'm town.

past ausuka thinks they can tell me what to do smh

[Ausuka]

SS can you explain why Nero is scum to you cos I really don't see it

[Ausuka]

oh i didn't see datisi asking my question but better rip

[Ausuka]

I agree mena needs to , like, read and post things asap, that slot has been doing very little all game

SS I'm confused, when you say Nero is good at creating distancing, how does that apply to the really anti-associative argument between Gamma and Nero where Gamma got pissed and replaced out that Dats was talking about?

[Ausuka]

fwiw I don't think wanting to chain SS and mena is like that scummy given we're in a good position and both slots are consensus wolfy

I wanted to like just give mena a chance to do whatever and post things at daystart and given my memory of him I am surprised that he isn't

I am interested in mena's view of the game even if we do flip him today

If it really is just that the wolves are fucked and he has 0 motivation then yay we win I guess

[Ausuka]

fwiw I don't think wanting to chain SS and mena is like that scummy given we're in a good position and both slots are consensus wolfy

in particular, maybe I don't understand SS that well but, I feel like this sort of detached spit-fire-at-the-whole-poe is part of his playstyle where he doesn't really have strong scumreads and surprised he buys into the idea of chaining eliminations?

I also feel like nero is just sort of really blatantly town here lole

[Ausuka]

Sorry if I'm angleshooty? I definitely understand the angle that it *shouldn't* be part of the game, and I agree, but it seems even worse to pretend it doesn't have implications when it very much does? Idk.

[Ausuka]

Since you're not in the PT datisi and SS can you tell me who we should shoot tonight? I have thoughts but I'd like to hear yours first.

Not a good joke to be making.

Depends on perspective I think.

Yeah don't be silly SS this isn't a Datisi setup

[Ausuka]

I think traitor is inherently fairly likely because this is a 19 player game

The idea of speculating about a traitor doesn't really appeal to me though? Like, if someone like SS is a traitor, realistically either we will find that eventually or we will win the game first, and I feel like it's easy for that kind of speculation to be off base unless you find something like... Very convincing

I mean I don't disagree that FB claiming scum has traitor equity but also I think SS is just scummy anyway so shrug

[Ausuka]

oh

I am unfamiliar with firebringer

[Ausuka]

you act as if I have a good memory (I do not)

[Ausuka]

I mean I respect you bolding the part where he calls you his buddy

Ironically, it's a bold play

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest is going on there though

[Ausuka]

I hope you get better soon mena and you can get some rest

I hope you can play soon but like recovering is more important obvs

[Ausuka]

I don't think Mena would make up being sick as an excuse

It's sort of frustrating sure but I'm willing to wait for it

[Ausuka]

I hardclaim combined gunsmith rolecop.

On night 1 I targeted Datisi and he doesn't have a gun and he is a doctor. Presumably this makes him town because doctors are always town.

On night 2 I targeted scamper. He has a gun and his role is strongman. However I don't think we should eliminate him because he's funny.

[Ausuka]

I mean, I'm not an idiot. I don't think getting sick is obvious bullshit at all, really. It happens pretty often to me and has affected me in mafia before. I also don't think Menalque is the kind of person who's not capable of posting as scum.

[Ausuka]

I mean, things are more complicated than that. Being sick makes it harder to operate, not impossible. If you're sick and have things to do, it's especially hard to think about mafia, and it can slip from your mind. Mena can be scum and still telling the truth. I like him and think he would act honourably by not lying about this.

In the meantime, like, I guess I can iso fire and check for associatives with Gamma which is something I probably should have done already but I got distracted by Azelf.

[Ausuka]

We are not voting the guilty on scamper why? Or was this a joke?

Because he's funny, obviously

(It was a joke)

[Ausuka]

ok sorry

[Ausuka]

i mean maybe i'm misjudging how other people feel but i'm just like

mafiascum has long deadlines, if we spam needlessly and get exhausted it's bad but can't we all just like... take a holiday and do other things while we wait for mena

i don't think that really hurts us

idk

[Ausuka]

odd-night vanilla townie

mena have u had the chance to, like, read stuff yet

[Ausuka]

Hi I'm here and increasingly thinking maybe we are just slowrolling this

[Ausuka]

Kinda just willing to go along with whatever

[Ausuka]

What do you mean what

Is something unclear about what I said

Are we not in, like, an extremely good position here

[Ausuka]

Slowrolling means delaying a win when you don't need to

[Ausuka]

In this case it means scum might just be, like, fucked and just waiting for us to finish the game already

Like that pick your power game you modded

[Ausuka]

idgi, wouldn't it be better to play around the possibility that the game's not as easy as you hope it is?

I mean yeah and that's what I think we're doing now by waiting for Mena?

Arguably it doesn't change things much either way but like whatever

[Ausuka]

unless you think it's exactly menalque/s_s (which idk it could be)

I don't really see this game as super easy? because like who is the other one do you know

Fire

[Ausuka]

I mean I think I have been pretty clear about who I would like to kill

I'm not pushing this aggressively because we have lots of margin for error and I don't think fire endgames here but I think fire is probably more likely to be scum than either SS or mena fwiw

Pedit: ok?

[Ausuka]

if there is a third vig, please just fucking shoot me

got it boss

[Ausuka]

this is all datisi's fault imo

[Ausuka]

i am kind of wondering if cat scratch fever not being dead last night means that scum has some sorta blocking role (or alternatively, they do not have anyone who knows something about mechanics, because we're at evens now and leaving a vig alive to get a shot of is LOL but okay whatever)

i am annoyed that we ended up going on smart when he had somewhat good associates w baltar but eh, i didn't have the guts to push it yesterday so whatever

in my nightmares i saw a mena/lion team and i maybe still see it

it's 3 am i shouldn't be playing mafia right now

Scum probably has some sort of power here is the best explanation I can think of, since scum vigs are Not Allowed (I think someone brought up the enchant shot being sus but like those are banned)

I guess ydrasse might have just had good reads?

[Ausuka]

It's really hard for me to sort through what I think about people's play yesterday because of how demotivated the whole game was.

Like I don't think Ausuka's play yesterday was particularly townie compared to how I felt about her play yesterday, but I'm not sure how much weight to put on that given the state of the day.

Shrug, I mean it's hard for me to effort too hard if there's a pretty big chance that we're on track to win already and me doing Things might just reduce our win rate and waste our time

I do think some of my townreads have become stale so I will do some reviewing today

[Ausuka]

there's a pretty big chance

what makes you feel that?

?

my reads are pretty aligned with most people's

i think in most worlds if we burn you, fire and menalque we win the game

pedit: you would totally do that so you could brag postgame about how you did that and still won tbh

[Ausuka]

i think datisi/scamper paranoia isnt that helpful because iirc we have enough room that we can leave it for a while and if they don't die then it's suspicious

as it is there is only really one night where they probably should have died

that said the cat is out of the bag so... whatever

it is not impossible there is scum there, obviously i thought dats was scum this game, but it just seems a lot less likely than other possibilities

it's hard to imagine scamper's play as a scum gambit imo and just mathematically it's very improbable he would have something he calls a clear on dats which isn't actually a clear. it's possible that he happened to gunsmith check the mafia doctor but that seems unlikely enough of a coincidence to not be that worth worrying about

pedit: what about that is "so confident" exactly

[Ausuka]

im actually a multitasking cop gunsmith and i've checked everyone except you three

[Ausuka]

i think in most worlds if we burn you, fire and menalque we win the game

how sure are you on guiltylion being town

i got the paranoia there after the s_s flip

i was pretty sure of it earlier! tbh my memory of this game is slightly foggy but i really liked his d1 and d2 play, especially the stuff around vp baltar felt really helpful while i was pushing him. and i know mafia can and do bus but it felt genuine and legitimately useful at the time

that said i Did Not Love the way he shaded me at the start of the day for voting on wagons without substantiating it so he was one of the ppl i was gonna review

i think datisi/scamper paranoia isnt that helpful because iirc we have enough room that we can leave it for a while and if they don't die then it's suspicious

Well, this is why I want the info now if it exists. Killing scamper tonight is the level 0 scum play and I would argue its already kind of suspicious that both are alive.

i definitely agree but it doesn't, like, outweigh the inherent improbability of that situation to me, at least not today

like, i think scum having some sort of role that caused them to make this play is more likely than datisi happening to have a GF-esque role or scamper making that play as mafia

if scamper is still alive later i will see your point a lot more

[Ausuka]

what about that is "so confident" exactly

confident enough to not want to do Things??? I guess???

I'm not sure what the disconnect is here.

I feel like a townie's natural impulse is towards Doing Things because they want to win the game and they want to look cool in doing so. You obviously seem confident enough in the current consensus reads that you don't feel the need to put in effort.

I'm asking where that feeling stems from for you. Is it that you feel good enough about scum being in me/fire/mena? If so, what about our play makes you feel that way and why?

is it because your town reads are so rock solid? if so who do you feel best about as a town core and why?

The disconnect is that I said I was going to do things and that the fact that it had a good chance to be actively unhelpful just makes me less motivated? Like it's the start of the day lmao what on earth are you talking about with this "obviously you don't feel the need to put in effort" bullshit

I have definitely put in significantly more effort than most people in this game.

[Ausuka]

"what about our play makes you feel that way"

This is weird talk for someone who apparently was paranoid about my slot and checked my ISO. I don't think I've been unclear about my feelings here, *especially* about fire

[Ausuka]

I do think some of my townreads have become stale so I will do some reviewing today

[Ausuka]

you have so many worries that you forgot why i was scumreading fire?

I would expect someone with genuine "worries" to not ask such empty questions

[Ausuka]

This really just feels more like performative paranoia to me

like, your questioning isn't really engaging with any of the reads or content i've given at all

[Ausuka]

you said you have my iso open and have worries.

Instead of talking about those worries you ask me to explain reads I'm pretty sure I have explained, a lot in some cases.

You did this earlier as well. You're not talking about anything you're paranoid about, you're just making it clear you are very PARANOID AND TOWN without actually expressing reasons to be paranoid or your thought process.

[Ausuka]

I would strongly disagree with the idea that people have not been re-evaluating me since d1. Nero was scumreading me earlier and iirc people were discussing me often on d2

I very much do not understand the feelings angle either. My feelings and my reads are not separable as I understand it. I feel that fire is likely to be scum, I feel bleh about you and mena, I think DV improved but would still be someone I look at, I have towny feelings on the other players in this game.

I don't know why the expectation is that I am going to fight particularly hard for a fire elim when it looked incredibly likely they would be killed at some point.

I spent a long time making a case there and I don't think people really disagreed with it and people seemed a lot more willing to lim there afterwards. Like, if I think fire is likely to be eliminated d4 or d5 there is absolutely no reason to spend my time fighting for that d3 instead when I was also suspicious of SS.

Pedit: I do not recall gamma being one of my top town reads ever. I am going to need you to provide quotes for that.

[Ausuka]

Like, I did my job as far as I'm concerned! Even though I was busy I spent a long time making the case on Fire I was asked to make. The implication that I would have to hyperpost to make fire die earlier because they are a somewhat stronger scumread of mine is so ??? to me

pedit: morning tweet would never endgame and I would not attempt to save her as scum

[Ausuka]

Like the implication here is what.

I spend my time building a fire case so tweet, who flipped mafia goon, gets to die one day phase later.

I kind of feel like you are making this up on the spot.

[Ausuka]

You literally include a quote that says I am townleaning gamma to support that I had her as one of my top townreads.

VOTE: Dannflor

[Ausuka]

Like, I did my job as far as I'm concerned! Even though I was busy I spent a long time making the case on Fire I was asked to make. The implication that I would have to hyperpost to make fire die earlier because they are a somewhat stronger scumread of mine is so ??? to me

pedit: morning tweet would never endgame and I would not attempt to save her as scum

I don't recall implicating this

ok what is the implication of "the fire case came out when pressure was swinging to morning tweet" then

[Ausuka]

none of the lines of questioning you've used feel genuine to me at all

[Ausuka]

You literally include a quote that says I am townleaning gamma to support that I had her as one of my top townreads.

VOTE: Dannflor

i do not understand how this is a point against me

you don't understand how posting incredibly blatant nonsense is a point against you?

Like, I did my job as far as I'm concerned! Even though I was busy I spent a long time making the case on Fire I was asked to make. The implication that I would have to hyperpost to make fire die earlier because they are a somewhat stronger scumread of mine is so ??? to me

pedit: morning tweet would never endgame and I would not attempt to save her as scum

I don't recall implicating this

ok what is the implication of "the fire case came out when pressure was swinging to morning tweet" then

I think there's a world where you could have been trying to save MT?

You say now that MT never was going to survive but unless you know her as a player I don't think it's obvious she couldn't kick it up a gear?

and I seem to recall that you didn't know she was a polarized player when she initially repped in

1) I was asked to make a case on fire beforehand

2) pushing a case on fire was never going to save MT in any meaningful way and i do not believe that you think it would, or that scum in my position would have a plan involving saving that slot for some reason

3) her meta had been mentioned by that point which is something I would expect someone with genuine paranoia about me to look at beforehand

[Ausuka]

you don't understand how posting incredibly blatant nonsense is a point against you?

...were you not town reading Gamma? I am incredibly confused here

you say that gamma becomes one of my strongest townreads without much further explanation as a point against me.

to support this you post a quote in which I say I am

leaning town

on him.

I do not believe you do not understand why this is misleading.

[Ausuka]

idk i would like to talk to someone towny about this i guess

I have a tendency of being defensive but sometimes I am right and I think I am right about this

[Ausuka]

yes

[Ausuka]

on second thought i feel like

any discussion regarding masons

is probably a bad idea

but yeah you can check the mafiawiki site to see what counts as normal fwiw

[Ausuka]

I have a tendency of being defensive but sometimes I am right and I think I am right about this

i am Around but i am not able to focus very hard on this game currently for ??? reasons

i do agree dann looks Not Good in this exchange but like idk what is scum-him attempting to accomplish here

I think the intent was to like be paranoid because it is a Towny thing to do on the surface but it wasn't, like, thought through that well and his explanation fell flat

[Ausuka]

yes

on second thought i feel like

any discussion regarding masons

is probably a bad idea

but yeah you can check the mafiawiki site to see what counts as normal fwiw

I'm actually thinking the opposite and am considering casing the remaining Masons if they continue to make shit use of their role and refuse to push the Mena -> fire -> Dann solve through.

ok well that doesn't sound like a good idea

[Ausuka]

see i want to respond to this stuff but like

I don't think speculating about power roles is productive because I never want to exe scamper or dats today in any world

And I think based on what I've heard today the chance they nightkill me and then sweep is... small

[Ausuka]

i also think if it is, like, dann and someone else who is sus

pushing me is the kind of 'hail mary' play where it's like

you have a lot to gain and not much to lose

[Ausuka]

hi im gonna do some light content tonight then do more rereading 2morrow

does anyone want to chat to me about anything or should i just start isoing

I think guiltylion is the first person I wanna check out

[Ausuka]

does anyone want to chat to me about anything or should i just start isoing

Do you understand why I didn't want to wait so many IRL days for Menalque? It's not Pro Town to waste time and give preferential treatment to slots because they're our friends. Players get distracted and paranoid and lurk scum slip through the cracks.

I don't think menalque is going to slip through the cracks and pull out the sweep by lurking

I also imagine I would have done the same if someone else was in that position where the focus was on them

I understand where you were coming from but I don't really regret what I said

Anyway, I'm assuming no one wants to talk about reads so I will go ahead and do the GL thing

[Ausuka]

I would find that incredibly funny actually

If only because I have the mental image of menalque as a spammer still

[Ausuka]

I do think nero pushing datis and me is a bit ???

The assumption the datisi check is a gunsmith is a bit dubious given I don't think we have the info to conclude that

But also i don't think i ever see his associatives with gamma as s/s so whatever

[Ausuka]

Nero why do you think the check on Datisi was a gunsmith

[Ausuka]

I don't think it's that weird

[Ausuka]

I just did? Don't remember seeing it before then

[Ausuka]

I am still having a hard time seeing his interactions with Gamma as s/s honestly

I think doing things like this is kind of in his town meta, in the last time we played together he started pushing me when I was fairly universally townread and kept doing it throughout the rest of the game and he was town

[Ausuka]

I'm still dubious about the idea he's pushing Datisi based on the theory he could maybe be a scum doctor

But also like not sure there's a reason to take this specific angle as maf

[Ausuka]

Eh I see where Shea is coming from

[Ausuka]

I am still having a hard time seeing his interactions with Gamma as s/s honestly

I think doing things like this is kind of in his town meta, in the last time we played together he started pushing me when I was fairly universally townread and kept doing it throughout the rest of the game and he was town

does that necessarily mean its not in his scum meta?

i mean not especially but i don't think he's being like that scummy with stuff

[Ausuka]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89826

[Ausuka]

Spoiler: quote wall

VOTE: gamma

since it worked so well last game

I'll take that as an implicit sign that you don't care to play with me

thats not what that means at all.

You were scum last game we played annd I was tunneling so rando townie, got no traction and then flipped you.

Where do you get off saying that a vote on you is some venge vote that means I don't want to play with you? It's like you are trying to villainize me.

I also didn't stay in the whole time, so it feels like you expect the vote to tilt me out of playing (even though you had zero part in that, the big problem was one of my scum partners was being a towel)

rude

rude

says the one who yelled at someone offering me digital hugs

I get the feeling that nero ends up tunneling random townies a lot

is what it was @, not you.

though I wasn't yelling @ Kerset. I just didn't know what he meant and it was humorous FMPOV to say don't give you hugs. It was also kinda OGI to bring it up.

I get the feeling that nero ends up tunneling random townies a lot

is what it was @, not you.

though I wasn't yelling @ Kerset. I just didn't know what he meant and it was humorous FMPOV to say don't give you hugs. It was also kinda OGI to bring it up.

you may have thought it was funny but I was not having a good time and it felt abusive
and how was it OGI?

p sure it was and like...I'd like to hear more from deas and SS and....just yuck.

I'm voting Gamma b/c I think he's scum and I just really hate that he's trying to frame my vote on him as some kind of personal attack on him.

I think this interaction doesn't feel s/s at all

[Ausuka]

What? I had zero interaction with gamma

??????????????????????????????

[Ausuka]

the more I think about it the less I think it makes sense for her to say Relly made a mistake. It sounds like she knows his alignment.

VOTE: Ausuka

-_-

[Ausuka]

i think i was going to iso guiltylion?

i want to do that and will maybe try and make some progress??

i am genuinely so sick of mafia

[Ausuka]

however I will say Ausuka is a confident townread so if they still hold a strong SR on VPB and it seems grounded, I would currently be willing to sheep/defer to that, certainly interested in hearing it out. need to fully catch up though

this doesnt really seem like something a bussing partner is likely to say

i expect a busser to like, instinctively highlight their agency in what they are doing to make people see them as a central actor in things, so to say something like this seems unlikely?

[Ausuka]

shrug idk im trying

[Ausuka]

like I was hardly the first to mention that Dats could be a mafia doc, and you fakeclaimed GS earlier so I felt like it was a little ??? that Ausuka would go "why would Nero ever think Scamper is a GS?"

i mean frankly, ydrasse flipping mason did make me think that maybe datisi and scamper are masons, yeah? i didn't *know* but it was the most obvious conclusion to me and i was confused why you were not only saying scamper was probably GS, but acting sure enough of that possibility to push datisi, which just seemed like an anti town thing to do

i still don't understand it but it appears it was at least not TMI

[Ausuka]

i agree nero's push on me is ??? but like, i felt the same in the last game we played together and thought he was just tunneling me and that turned out to be correct. and i get a similar feeling in this game.

i feel like this sort of stubborness is the sort of thing i expect from town nero?

i still feel like the push on gamma and her replacing out is not the sort of thing i expect from s/s but it seems like people disagree with that

[Ausuka]

anyway...

i'm going to try to review everyone over the next few days to be sure (minus csf and dats), it's just hard when a game is this dense and i feel like things are kind of...disjointed in terms of all the replacements. would be easier when the game is down to fewer names but i really don't have that luxury

anyawy now that info is out in the open i *want* to say this feels like a 5 scum setup just b/c all the masons, the vigs, and the UB are confirmable town roles which is a lot in a 20p although ofc there's room for friendly fire...but i think generally it's best to play assuming a potential worst case scenario rather than hoping for a less powerful scum team. just keep it in mind for the future

yeah from my experience when you get a lot of roles of the same type, like confirmable roles, in a game, the nrg gets a lot more cautious about how it affects balance

i don't think we can be sure if it's 4 or 5 but if it's 4 i guess we should look out for lots of scum power in case that ever becomes more relevant?

[Ausuka]

ok uh hi i am not feeling super up to stuff rn >.>

does anyone have anything they would like me to respond to

i've read through some of the fire stuff and will try to continue doing that? im still not really convinced gl is a wolf but i def need to look at frog again

intuitively his playstyle felt town to me but i think i've forgotten why i was townreading him lol

[Ausuka]

k

[Ausuka]

idk do I need to respond to respond to the question about Nero now

i guess I'll try and do rereading overnight zzz

[Ausuka]

if csf is town i am going to do something

i don't know what it is but like. something

[Ausuka]

hi guys are we enjoying life

[Ausuka]

ok good

[Ausuka]

how r u on this fine day while we await the mod lock

I am ill unfortunately and feel like a potato

[Ausuka]

i read someone say once that the later in the game the first scumflip happens, the more it favors the town

idk if thats true or not but its an interesting idea

I feel like there's a middle ground here

Maybe scum flips d1 don't help much but also like I suspect a scum not flipping until day 5 or something is going to lead to scum wins a lot

[Ausuka]

hope u feel better ausuka

Thanks!! I' don't have that much energy but I tried to clean my room while I'm off so maybe the good atmosphere will help

[Ausuka]

it's ok we can just like, skip the night phase. kitty scratch pls flip yourself and tell us who you wanna kill. thanks

[Ausuka]

am interested in hearing your thoughts on shea, fire and dv in particular

maybe i'm just confbiased but i do still think it's fire here

i have been townreading relly/shea slot all game and have not really felt like he's been scummy at any point?

and dv is like ... not really sure why he's being cleared here? i dont like hard scumread him but did A Little Rereading overnight and i think his associatives with baltar are kinda worse than i remembered

my reads kinda suck so i'm not going to start a shitfight over anything but zzz

[Ausuka]

i think the 5 goons idea is probably correct. i guess the last scum could also be some sort of pr, not sure how much it matters at this point without any way of verifying

4 goons + sk is possible but like, seems a bit mean for the scum and also i think in that case we just win? so probably not worth bothering with

[Ausuka]

Btw I don't know if i would go as far as clearing dannflor but i do think the menalque flip looks very good for him and am not really scumreading him rn

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hardclaim Informed Townie, there are 7 scum in the game. you're welcome

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I don't think there needs to be a massclaim today but I guess if people really want to we can?

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Sorry frog I was trying to joke but sadly I am unfunny

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I still think 5 scum is very likely

I kind of want to just sheep datsscamper but that's lazy

I will at least try and look through relly again and also the points about Shea that date brings up (Shea's iso is so long idk if I can read it all lole)

Don't have objections to fire and frogs being poed

[Ausuka]

too tired to do things really but im vt yay

[Ausuka]

yes I'm sorry

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hi i feel kinda dead but i don't want to flake or whatever

uh, does anyone have anything i need to do

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I need you to be my friend because you seem cool.

ok we're friends now

[Ausuka]

i broadly do, yeah. i thought the "you guys better not let frog live to endgame" given how people have been treating frog and, like, datisi putting him firmly in the poe, felt performative? and i still believe there was some scummy stuff in his early game

re 8096 i kinda don't expect scum to be so blatantly opportunistic as to shade and target all the miselims they're going to need? assuming there's 1 scum, they are quite a way off and like trying to actively create paths to all those miselims just sounds like it would be too blatant

now that i'm actually thinking about this game i need to go through the menalque associatives though >.>

[Ausuka]

Datisi I'm proud of u for following my patented "reading MT" method

menalque isn't scum with datisi

[Ausuka]

ok uh smart ppl say frog is scum but like

looking back at the frog/mena interactions, i dont really see it?

like i guess it's possible he decided to treat his buddy like that? with the whole thing about him not posting when he was busy?

but it doesn't seem likely to me

[Ausuka]

i thought datisi was saying that

unless you're saying that he's not smart

pedit: lmao

[Ausuka]

ok uh smart ppl say frog is scum but like

looking back at the frog/mena interactions, i dont really see it?

like i guess it's possible he decided to treat his buddy like that? with the whole thing about him not posting when he was busy?

but it doesn't seem likely to me

i also thought he was scum in a recent mini normal for like doing weird things where he turned around and started like strongly pushing me d2 after townreading me strongly for ll of d1 and he ended up being town? so that is colouring my perception a bit

(that game ended up being void, because the vig tried to shoot the cop and the mod killed a mafia member instead, but i don't think that makes this invalid)

pedit: i am more inclined to believe scum would bus mena there than not, in a general sense. i don't really see the way frog pushed him so aggresively when he was busy as partnered though.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: fireisredsir

fire is orange, actually

[Ausuka]

i think the tonal thing where he's like

so convinced mena is lying about being busy or, whatever? and is being so aggressive about it. doesn't seem fake to me. and in general i don't think scum are that likely to treat their partners that way.

i also think the way he kept like going on about how incompetent people are for wanting to give mena time and complaining about the masons doesn't really feel partnered. like, i expect scum to bus their partners a lot, but on average i don't expect them to be outright hostile around the topic of their partner?

i also think read flips can def come from town frog, and i mean i probably should review that time more but the idea that town frog wouldn't flip reads in that manner comes off as very unconvincing to me.

pedit: shrug i mean if ur town i'll take ur reads into account i guess? i don't have massive confidence in my reads generally but i am not really seeing this

[Ausuka]

im not sure how important this is but like

could mena claiming vt in response to scamper imply the last scum role is some sort of information role?

especially given the ydrasse kill.

also i haven't cleared frog? i just don't think it's frog. ribbit.

[Ausuka]

oops i probably shouldn't have said that until massclaim finishes actually >.>

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oh i guess >.>

[Ausuka]

i think menalque distancing from fire but not like really seeming to try and push their lim through? looks kinda partnery

[Ausuka]

i think menalque distancing from fire but not like really seeming to try and push their lim through? looks kinda partnery

I'm not sure what I would expect scum!mena to do in that game state so I'm not like super sure if this is actually a point for or against fire being scum.

I guess maybe they didn't think the game state was that dire? But it seems like it maybe had to be viewed as dire if mena knew that CSF was on borrowed time.

I mean I see your point? Mena hasn't played mafia for a while and we don't know who the last scum is (I know you said that there might be 2 scum left but I don't really agree?) so like, it's difficult to understand his mindset that well but like

My general opinion is that scum instinctively like to push their partners. And like, the way mena has fire as scum and never really pushes them feels kinda weird. And I think it makes sense if the reason mena didn't really push fire very much is because he didn't, like, want to rock the boat too hard and wanted to get his town scumreads to die?

(although to be fair reading his iso again mena didn't really do much pushing of anyone >.>)

[Ausuka]

I feel like that balance is ~fine? Maybe a tiny bit townsided but I think 2 scums would be, like, extremely scumsided imo

[Ausuka]

I think games have gotten somewhat more townsided over the years because people noticed mafia win most games and wanted to change that

Which like, you might already know that but in case you didn't, this might be why?

[Ausuka]

Ok so in that world Deas is just off vanity voting his scum buddy then?

i mean to be fair gamma is just off vanity voting his scum buddy lole

[Ausuka]

re 8096 i kinda don't expect scum to be so blatantly opportunistic as to shade and target all the miselims they're going to need? assuming there's 1 scum, they are quite a way off and like trying to actively create paths to all those miselims just sounds like it would be too blatant

oh I guess I should have literally read one more post so I could respond to Ausuka directly lol

my thing is like, why

start

shading me and then stop, though. like was that all a calculated trajectory? or was it like an "oh shit I need to pivot on GL so not to piss him off" kind of improvised thing?

I'd buy your point if he hadn't already written a gigantic case on me, one that I felt was actually fairly well thought out on the whole

idk i guess like, i don't think this point is scummy for fire especially but like

i don't think it's even close to clearing? like my head hurts rn but i think like, scum probably tend to improvise and not plan things out *that* much? and i mean, yesterday it felt like ppl were suspecting you and that is Not Happening anymore. so i think it would make sense for scum!fire to recognise that their push on you is less likely to go well than pushing frog and chooses to push that instead. and tracking back on you makes sense because i don't think scum want to be perceived to be chaining miseliminations here??

pedit: I don't think s/s wagons means scum are that much less likely to be vanity bussing? But whatever it doesn't seem like that important of a point to argue

[Ausuka]

And I am not a big vca analysis person either

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ngl, dannflor feels kind of townie to me on this past page,

but

i opened up the ISO of the slot before them (which was Eira apparently?) - before subbing in, just when i thought i may sub into that person - it was the only one i looked at - and i thought they were scummy so i'm a bit hesitant there.

okay starting to read the game, Post#4 (question: is there a way to link these?) i feel like is believable from fire.. i'm reading them as like the opposite of me, which, i have friends in my group irl who are like this and so i can see it as legitimate. i'm liking the energy of some people in early game, but there's sort of a bar/standard to weigh in "is this happy energy because they like being town like me" or not - so, i don't fully feel like i can regard it with a ton of weight.

i'm getting town feelings from Post#108 from scamper, because i feel like mafia doesn't have "gut feelings" obviously, as they know the answers, so someone saying they have a gut feeling must be either inherently townie or mafia pretending to be townie. this post makes me feel like scamper isn't mafia pretending to be townie specifically because it's not just a post on a gut feeling, it's a second conclusion from that gut in a way that makes me feel like the gut feeling was real.

similarly i'm really liking how humaneatingmonkey is getting into the game right away on P#116 by thinking of the game as teams and making associatives/connections as a whole - they seem solvey in an exploratory way.

Post#152 sounds a little manipulative/overly-knowledgeable to me from Ydresse - mostly because it's not framing something as a townie read, it's a direct "this is why you're town" that feels framed in an intentional way.

i've read 7 pages, i'm great =p my townreads so far are fire, scamper, humanmonkey. slight scumlean on ydresse, but not confident.

ok i mean obscure trying to townread fire and then walking it back with 'i don't fully feel like i can regard it with a ton of weight' feels awkward and partnery

but also rule of 3 says fire is town and i'm like, it's possible a new player goes for the townread on two partners but is it likely

[Ausuka]

Welcome @obscure very nice to have you join us! You really jumped into the deep end. Have you played much forum mafia before? We use a lot of buzzwords

@Irrelevant11 thank you! i haven't played forum mafia before, i've played it with my group of friends irl and i've played a few quick games on discord with a group of people, but i'm new to this setting and to how long the phases are/mechanics. yeah there's been quite a few confusing things, but i found the Wiki which is very helpful =p (i'm a teacher irl so i know that.. instructions are provided places even though most people don't go look for them and i don't want to be That Newbie)

how did i not notice obscure called relly Irrelevant11 that's hilarious

it also seems +town for shea but maybe i'm reading too much into it

[Ausuka]

it's possible a new player goes for the townread on two partners but is it likely

i don't think obscure was new

"villagery" and "real-timing" aren't phrases that i often hear new players use

huh I mean maybe? it seems like such a weird thing to fake but i guess not impossible???

[Ausuka]

I'm really interested in what people think about what i think about obscure.

Because i was not happy when i came to the conclusions i did. So sanity checks appreciated.

Post 1414 self meta is either useless or cheating. Either you are lying and you try to do these things equally because you are aware of them, OR you are actually aware of the differences in your play and intentionally not fixing them and bringing them to the attention of others in your town games is borderline trust telling. So I guess my question to you is: Which is it? Are you so bad that there is a massive difference in your town games and your scum games in how you fundamentally approach day one and you’re mentioning that here to say you’re town in this game, or are you a capable town and scum player who we can safely disregard your self meta description of yourself?

don't rly care what you think about the usefulness of self meta, i like sharing my thoughts. you are welcome to ignore them if you want

calling it borderline trust telling is ridiculous. nowhere did i say that my town and scum games are wildly divergent and that one should be instantly recognizable. i was just trying to explain my motivations/mindset in this specific game bc it was relevant to the post i was responding to

my goal as scum is not to precisely imitate my townplay. it's to get townread and to kill town. those are accomplished in very different ways so your point here is irrelevant

I disagree with you about this but i don't actually think it's relevant to your alignment so I'm not really interested in discussing it further.

I'm really interested in what people think about what i think about obscure.

Because i was not happy when i came to the conclusions i did. So sanity checks appreciated.

It’s not bad I think
I wasn’t really scanning for excessive noob card usage but from your scan it seems that was going on and I’ve def seen scum use it to great effect

Who did status replace?

i think this interaction looks town for shea? at least the way gamma responded seems to fit better with t!shea to me

pedit: why would you do that

well ok WHATEVER

[Ausuka]

well it's more comfortable for me to believe the scum fire narrative anyway so SURE