UNI MUM Mafia (Day 3, Stay Gold Pony)

[Cerberus v666]

/confirm.

[Cerberus v666]

I used to like my role, but then I thought about it, and it gave me a headache, and now I hate dramonic too.

[Cerberus v666]

/half confirm

This is the part where I would post a confirmation, but I don't

actually

have my role PM yet (dram probably sent it to the hydra, and if hiplop told me the password, I can't find it), which means I can't

actually

confirm, least of all on my hydra.

You're totally already confirmed.

[Cerberus v666]

Massflop: I'm always town in games with you guys. That's not even impressive. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Massflop: I'm always town in games with you guys. That's not even impressive. :p

What can I say?

I only play one or two games at a time right now.
Heck, before this game it'd probably have been ages since my last full game. (What was it, SC's game?)

I'm honestly a bit rusty.

Much disappoint. Gotta get your A-game going so I can either feel happy about catching you as scum, or glas that you're on my side.

[Cerberus v666]

In your defense, some of those people only said /confirm. And some of them are hydras who didn't sign, so...

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I think having no avatar is gonna be my avatar, so you really need to get outta my territory.

[Cerberus v666]

In your defense, some of those people only said /confirm. And some of them are hydras who didn't sign, so...

Only?
ONLY?!?

It's like you don't know me at all, man.

It's absolutely unacceptable for me to have no read on so many players with so much content!

You could always make some up? I believe you did that in FFVII, and it was entertaining. You could even announce your read on people who haven't posted yet. Imagine if you were right.

[Cerberus v666]

One more confirm needed! And then dramonic has to show up, and then we'll have shut down the scum ability to chat if they don't have day chat!! Do it! As fair warning, I will begin to actively develop a scum read on anyone who I see post elsewhere while not confirming for this game at this point. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Dead serious mode, though: I'm like 95% sure this game features a MINIMUM of one type of redirection role, probably multiple, in addition to an equal number of roleblocking roles, thanks to our own.

So, uh. As town, take caution when using those; for investigatives also take

reasonable

caution in trusting your results. (For instance: If you receive results in the form of "Your target", I would be

incredibly

on-guard. But if you receive results in the form of "Player is/did", then short of bastard-modding, you can trust your result.)

As a corollary to this, I would recommend everyone confirm with dramonic the details of the form your result will come in under different circumstances, such as targeting an ascetic, for example. Don't be the arse who doesn't understand their role because they made assumption about how the mod would phrase something, or targeted something poorly because you didn't seek clarification.

[Cerberus v666]

Did it work in ffvii? I didn't ever go back and doublecheck how accurate that list was. Also, I'm still sorry for locking you in that game.

[Cerberus v666]

Omg no. Bad avatar. Sad face is sad.

[Cerberus v666]

Hy-dentities:

Edgar Allen Pro: Varsoon and ???
Learned Hand: Titus and Drixx
Mass Flop: mastin2 and hiplop (the fungi)

did I get 'em all

It looks like you did get them all.

[Cerberus v666]

What if I'm both, and mastin is my lover?

[Cerberus v666]

What if I am a ascetic miller lover whose ascetic doesn't prevent coppings? :p

[Cerberus v666]

Ebwop: AND I DON'T CLAIM D1!?!? what shall you do, or is that just aimed at mastin?

Pedit: I wanna hear a rap battle.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, you're grounded for drunk posting.

Orders of Mama Titus.

Now you go off and sit in your room and think about what you're doing there.

While you're there, tell Santa which of your brothers and sisters are just bystanders and which are ebil.

Never drunk Titus, not my thing, BUT! I haven't slept much in the last 72 hours between star wars thursday night+waiting in line, then work+dancing friday, then board games all day today....

And dude, I don't friggin know. That's twice now you're trying to get me to give reads early D1! stahp it, idk, everything here is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, you're grounded for drunk posting.

Orders of Mama Titus.

Now you go off and sit in your room and think about what you're doing there.

While you're there, tell Santa which of your brothers and sisters are just bystanders and which are ebil.

Never drunk Titus, not my thing, BUT! I haven't slept much in the last 72 hours between star wars thursday night+waiting in line, then work+dancing friday, then board games all day today....

And dude, I don't friggin know. That's twice now you're trying to get me to give reads early D1! stahp it, idk, everything here is an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

It worked well the first time. :-p

But it didn't get meaningful reads from ME. Anyways, yes, hydras plz plz sign, if you're the secret person just sign as "not-varsoon".

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm, I don't really do trolling. Nothing I've said is actual trolling, I do have a legitimate interest in hearing the respond to my silly question about whether or not only mastin has to claim certain things d1, or if it was meant as a warning to everyone.

[Cerberus v666]

Did anyone else think they were a neutral survivor when they first read their role pm?

Also, VOTE: Mass flop

The name bystander did throw me off, and I checked the sample role pm just to be sure.

Also, is this comment rolefishing? :p You can certainly infer a bit of information about someone's role based in whether or not there was any confusion on their part.

[Cerberus v666]

I..I.I.I. am not even goign to hide guys I *takers sip from flask*

I am an amnesiac miller, the amnesiac part being that I don't remember my abbilties unless I am visited by a doctor. I. I UGH would go to the interdimensional hospital but that would be a waste of my time so get to it people

Hm. Kinda want to hear a flavor claim.

And yeah, you should clarify about using abilities if you don't know you have them. :p

Town - Cereberus

Next in line please.

Umm... why? The sample PM that Dram provided said Bystander. There is an implied modifier that almost always appears with that word: innocent. I don't see how you can confirm someone is town because they say their role pm says they are faction: bystander (especially now that Dram clarified). And no townie should have had any confusion because there's no way the win condition for bystander would be worded so vaguely if it was neutral, and if it was scum there would be a link to a scum pt, right?

So you're trying awfully hard to get town credit by appearing to "test" people, but your test isn't actually testing anything. Everyone in this game who got a town PM is smart enough to know that they got a town PM. I mean... Dram clarified, which is erring on the side of caution, but still. I'm trying to decide whether you really think you came up with some way to sort people with this or whether you're putting on a show. Titus is good at day one; I'll ask her. I would tend to lean towards you putting on a show being what we're seeing.

In any case, Dram has clarified so even if you legitimately thought you were getting something of value from what you were doing, the mod blew it up by clarifying.


Love, with eggnog made a little less thick with warm milk, and of course fresh from the oven cookies,
Drixx

An innocent bystander could be a third party survivor. Your argument that the implied phrase is less confusing than the word alone doesn't work.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and the rest of the post makes sense too, but I could certainly see why one might have a moment of uncertainty. The wording "all threats are eliminated" could indeed easily be a poorly written survivor win con.

Als, Drixx, I'm super sad we're not hydraing this game. I wasn't lying when I said thinking about my role is giving me a headache, and it would be awesome to give that headache to you.

[Cerberus v666]

Dramonic is way too good a moderator to give a neutral a win condition so vague. That was so obviously town win condition that even though I was like "Bystander???", I was certain enough that we're town and not neutral that I didn't even ask for clarification. Obviously someone did because we have Dram in thread clarifying.

Stop trying to buddy me Cerb. We're already buddies ... but until you earn your town stripes in this game, I view anything you say directed at me as an attempt to manipulate me into town reading you. I expect you to treat us the same.

~Drixx

I don't buddy people man. You know that. It was a legitimate expression of my sentiments with regards to optimizing my role. Titus, why ouch?

Even good moderators make mistakes.

Hi Jeanne!

[Cerberus v666]

I don't even know I presumed not

Don't flavor claim. Definitely ask.

The flavor claim thought was to determine legitimacy if amnesiac claim, and potential value of a protective helping him, but, well...do we even care about getting him his powers? He's a claimed miller, barring some fantastic series of events we almost have to lynch him before lylo, and if he's scum we obviously don't want to give him what he wants.

Pedit: 3dicerolling needs to point to something about me other than agreeing with him on the bystander thing, otherwise there is little reason to consider me town, unless you're drixx, to whom I should have obvtowned by now, but I'll assume I have and he's being cautious cause he knows I could fake it. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Not sure what titus means by 3dicerolling as scum on opposite teams, but I'm also not a fan of people townreading me. Like, ever.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't even know I presumed not

Don't flavor claim. Definitely ask.

The flavor claim thought was to determine legitimacy if amnesiac claim, and potential value of a protective helping him, but, well...do we even care about getting him his powers? He's a claimed miller, barring some fantastic series of events we almost have to lynch him before lylo, and if he's scum we obviously don't want to give him what he wants.

Pedit: 3dicerolling needs to point to something about me other than agreeing with him on the bystander thing, otherwise there is little reason to consider me town, unless you're drixx, to whom I should have obvtowned by now, but I'll assume I have and he's being cautious cause he knows I could fake it. :p

Drixx is afk. You must deal with me.

Until we establish roles are not linked to flavor, no flavor claims.

Second, we don't have to lynch miller claims before lylo. If we did, your vote would be on one of the two millers to establish a read on them.

Third, if you hate town reads on you, why are you bitching about the fact that Drixx hasn't said anything.

Ftr, we're discussing Shiro atm. We'll get to you.

~Titus

My role is inextricably linked with my flavor. Like, 110%. I actually missed the first miller claim completely. Also, Titus, why do you insist on expecting me to act the way you would act, when you know for a fact that I don't? Why would I vote for one of the two miller claims, when i don't even vote most of the time? What's the value in pointing out a line of play that I could take, when you know it's not one I would take?

[Cerberus v666]

So, eh, just curious, what does everyone think would be the single most overpowered single target non game breaking non killing thing you could target someone with that benefits town? Let's call this a thought experiment. Skies the limit, except for the limits I made. Make stuff up.

pedit: Elbirn, maybe. I'm leaning towards one of the two of them being scum though, and that shiro just missed the first miller claim the same way I did, since it was just quote and a single word response in a post with other content. Unfortunately, in a situation like this we line ourselves up for two mislynches pretty easily, given that I'm sure the game has it's fair share of absurdity going on, which may very well include two millers.

peditx2: dun dun dun the omgus!

[Cerberus v666]

good lord i hope i don't get nightkilled
i was looking forward to playing this game

Why do you think you'd be night killed if you claimed Miller..?

Did anyone else think they were a neutral survivor when they first read their role pm?

Also, VOTE: Mass flop

I actually give points to 3 dice for this because I had the same confusion/thought process when reading my role pm. Like yeah its in the sample pm, but if you're scum reading the sample pm for goodboypoints, you're never going to have confusion as to whether the sample role pm isn't actually the sample town pm.

Do ya know what I mean Mr krabs?

The bolded is a good point.

[Cerberus v666]

@cerb, are you seriously going with the you should tolerate me being suboptimal defense? Yeah, that's not cool. Now, you're walking back your suggestion to lynch the millers. You need votes.

@elbrin, I think it's a strong possibility. 100% certainty, no. I think they both are likely millers, but that says nothing of their alignment. Scum would be dumb to cc miller, unless they were one given the heat millers get.

@3dice, huh?

@jeanne, why hesitant on calling it what it is? Both town and scum OMGUS.

I don't think you should tolerate me being suboptimal, but I think you should also realize that I feel just me putting a vote on them does way less for me than interacting with them and others does. The way I read you pointing out the flaw in my choices, the ones which you should expect, and thus should have no reason to point out, is an attempt to make sure those who don't know me and haven't played with me are aware of this "nonsensical" thing that I'm doing, this apparent contradiction between words and actions, so if you need to you have just that tiny bit of extra support for getting me lynched.

The fact that there are *two* miller claims changes the situation and puts us in a spot where, if we lynch both millers...and they actually are town...we just lined up two mislynches, and that inspires caution.

When you say "you need votes" are you saying people need to vote fo rme to put pressure on me, or are you saying that I need to vote in order to get the millers lynched?

[Cerberus v666]

@cerb, that's awfully defensive. Why not just have your words and actions align? Are you fearing me lynching you already? You need pressure is what I meant, but you should definitely put your money where your mouth is.

@elbrin, Drixx and I are discussing Errant now.

~Titus

I'm not sure where you see defensiveness in me explaining my position, but okay. I'm not afraid of anyone getting me lynched because it's unlikely to happen. I'd place my unlynchability, due to role alone, below SU and suikoden, but above all my other games.

My words and actions won't align because they don't, when it comes to actually laying down votes. I suspect people and ask them questions to determine their alignment without bothering to vote for them constantly. It's just what I do, and you know that.

[Cerberus v666]

@elbrin, I think it's a strong possibility. 100% certainty, no.

I think they both are likely millers, but that says nothing of their alignment.

Scum would be dumb to cc miller, unless they were one given the heat millers get.

What in the world is a scum miller?

A scum miller would be a deceptive role that gives the slot no additional protections. It serves only to confuse town. :p

[Cerberus v666]

I don't know if you're mislynches, but I do know that if we determine that all millers must die before lylo, and you're both town, then that one decision will result in two mislynches.

[Cerberus v666]

If two scum claimed miller, and one died, there is almost no way that town would ever lynch the other. They'd just congratulate themselves on having guessed right and conftowned someone while catching scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes they are. Not giving explanations is scummy, cos it robs town of discussion. Ask anybody else and they'll agree.

For the sake of this game, I'm going to disagree, only to maintain our history of never agreeing on anything.

<3

[Cerberus v666]

(in reality though, I think naked votes are always questionable. ALWAYS.)

[Cerberus v666]

Jeanne, going forward, can you please stop giving out information about things you don't have a reason to share?

[Cerberus v666]

By the way.....

22812210211920182253221015711920

kkkkkkkkkkk -- sm 2013

p-edit: Only if you can convince the town not to lynch me.

We have two claimed millers. And other people who people are suspicious of. Like...seriously, stop freaking out.

[Cerberus v666]

@Learned Hand - It's not OMGUS. Read the quotes in 136 and come back to me.

Don't get your point there.

Noted.

She basically scum reads me, then in the very next post, throws out a readlist basically the same as mine. Pretty fake.

Or maybe the people who are obvtown are just obvtown to everyone. Or maybe you're all bad at reading people, in the same way.

[Cerberus v666]

@Jeanne: you never told me if I should stop voting Sharky or not.

@DS: how are insults mixed with content indicative of scum, as opposed to being a snarky or agressive play style?

Well, it's not strictly, but since they are acting the same way, and I'm scum-reading one, it follows that the other is also scummy.

PEdit: It was partial snark, partial me commenting on how he's making another shitty miller claim. To be honest, all these miller claims are ridiculous, and making me lose interest in the game. We should lynch each and every one of them.

He's the original miller claim I believe. He's just reiterating it while answering a question about why a miller would be worried about getting nkd.

[Cerberus v666]

@LH Use your head a little and figure out what I'm really trying to do here.

Don't .

If you understand what I am trying to do, use the code we devised to inform me.

Unless you're referencing ongoing, which you can't, the code in question is public information (and I think I know what you're talking about, and if I know, I'm sure others will), so, well, don't.

I do know what you're trying to do though jeanne, but it's not going to work for reasons.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey jeanne, if you could vig anyone at this moment, who would you vig?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, LH....I would love it if you guys would give me a reason to think you're town.

Dice: Titus giving good advice to Jeanne is not alignment indicative. She was asked a direct question and responded to it. If she had volunteered that advice, rather than being prompted for it, I might agree with you.

[Cerberus v666]

And I mean the code from Suikoden.

Yes, and that's why she shouldn't answer your question. That code is like four clicks away for anyone to decipher, and if she answers using it, it will expose what you're doing.

Why elbirn?

[Cerberus v666]

Unintended consequences.

[Cerberus v666]

If you mean those consequences, then don't worry. They won't occur.

Because you're a bad player?

[Cerberus v666]

(Btw, it will be HILARIOUS if we discover we weren't talking about the same thing later on)

[Cerberus v666]

That depends on what thing are you talking about.

Touche.
Alright. So, in other news, vig elbirn over the miller claims, noted.

See errant? Not evwryone thinks you should be vigged.

[Cerberus v666]

Now I have no idea what you're doing, other than ignoring Titus' advice about selective disclosure.

[Cerberus v666]

Trying to get yourself shot at, for I have no idea what reasons, but by claiming that I'm a partner of yours, you've removed all possible utility that might be gained from you being targeted tonight, because any thought of targeting you also equally applies to me. Regardless of what I say at this point, scum will have equal reason to think we're masons, as to think we're not. Also, by drawing me in and not having me confirm you (which I'm not doing ) you've lowered the likelihood that your mason claim will be believed.

So yeah, no friggin clue what you could possibly be trying to accomplish now.

[Cerberus v666]

Sick of this.

Vig: Jeanne

Hmm.

[Cerberus v666]

Btw, if that shot is real, I'm going to tell you what I tell every idiot who performs a day action earlier in the day than absolutely necessary: Don't do that. It's dumb. I don't care how much the noise of the conversation is annoying you, it is poor play, unless you have an expectation that you will be vigged yourself. Hell, as a vig, who has suspicion on him, if town, you have plenty of reason to save any shots you may have for later, when you know more. It's not like scum are gonna shoot at you.

[Cerberus v666]

I'd say you should never be okay with being lynched as town.

[Cerberus v666]

Because you freak out. It's impossible to tell if you're legitimately town freaking out, or if it's scum flailing and just making noise. You tunnel on people for empty reasons, instead of scumhunting when threatened. The behaviors just don't help town at all, and make you look suspicious.

At least, that's how I view those behaviors when I see them. In Suikoden, that's why Drixx and I were advocating your eventual lynch, because you were making too much noise that wasn't alignment indicative and making it too easy for scum to skim by.

Anyways. I'm at work, I really want to see more engagement, only like 6 slots are actively posting in this game. Where are the rest of you?

[Cerberus v666]

How did I contradict myself? It's your methods that cause problems, not your goal.

[Cerberus v666]

Anyways. Really. No more noise. We should find something else to talk about. Can we like get a vc mod? Then maybe I'll feel inclined to talk these people into voting for someone.

[Cerberus v666]

Anyways. Really. No more noise. We should find something else to talk about.

Can we like get a vc mod?

Then maybe I'll feel inclined to talk these people into voting for someone.

Added bolding so it gets noticed!

[Cerberus v666]

Ok, I'm betting 3dice and Jeanne are both scum. No way this was TvT, and it seems to rehearsed for TvS

What if I told you I was masons with Jeanne, how would that change your appraisal and why?

[Cerberus v666]

People, I'm trying to like, make a spreadsheet and crap to actually take notes on a game for once, instead of merely relying on my excellent memory (because just because I remember stuff, it's hard to cross reference), and I'm on like page 2 of the thread and about to give up. Too much crap to keep track of. Advice on formatting notes in spreadsheet format officially requested please and thank you.

[Cerberus v666]

Naw, D1 is dumb, give me some good reasons to acquire a specific target and I will.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't mean to be needy, but can one of you get an avatar? (play rock-paper-scissors or something)

I won't be getting an avatar. Read back to page 2, I declared that my lack of an avatar should serve to identify me.

[Cerberus v666]

They shoot based not on the actions of another, but on the frivolous reasons that their actions resemble what occurred on a previous mission!

Agents should know that those who look for connections to a previous mission shall always find them, regardless of which organization they or their other number served. Such is at best a starting point, yet here appears the end point. It is an action, not of tense, but pretense.

Good theory point. Direct me to where the players in question do this in a substantive fashion please.

[Cerberus v666]

Ah. Meh. Not substantial enough for me.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't even see what he did as especially scummy. It's bad practice, but not alignment indicative.

And my gun generally stays holstered.

[Cerberus v666]

If it were good theory in training, as you said agent, does it not apply in the field?

Your style is your own, for I shall not target a claim of mason at first dawn, but I mislike such reversals.

I never claimed mason. I presented a hypothetical in order to receive a response which I have not yet received. And just because I agree it's bad practice to rely upon past games as ones reasoning for reads in the current one does not mean I believe doing so is scummy.

[Cerberus v666]

Interesting. Max 3 votes. On DS. Because...people don't like something he said earlier?

[Cerberus v666]

Ah, it was the lynch all millers thing. Tell me DS, did you not realize errant was the original miller claimant,and thought this was a third? If so, who did you think were the other two? If not, why didn't you make this comment about millers back when the second claim originally occurred.?

[Cerberus v666]

I missed errants original miller claim, thus thinking he was the third. I thought that dice and Jeanne were the other miller claims. Still think that they are scum. Not sure about Errant, but really unimpressed by him thus far.

Who are the miller claims right now then?

[Cerberus v666]

Not sure if I've missed something

Or DS' reading comprehension blows ass-water

*squinty face*

The second. DS, you might want to rereread.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm leaning towards one of the two of them being scum though, and that shiro just missed the first miller claim the same way I did, since it was just quote and a single word response in a post with other content

i don't get that impression - actually, i think the very opposite

errant's claim looked like it was written in a way that he could make a joke of it if it ever became an issue (he didn't

explicitly

claim miller - it's theoretically possible he could write it off as a joke if he ever came under fire for it). i mean, if he does do this, then he probably should come under heavy scrutiny, but this is the impression i got from the way the 'claim' came about. shiro's claim looks a lot more genuine and i don't think it was a pre-planned scum thing. i also think errant's whole "i hope i don't get night-killed!" thing makes not a lot of sense in the context of the miller claim, which is another reason i don't like the way it was phrased

My post wasn't intended to give the impression. I thought Shiro was scum. I don't have any strong feelings about either claim. I just assume that town!Shiro would have made a bigger deal about the other miller claim if he has noticed, and scum!Shiro wouldn't have made a miller claim at all if he had noticed it.

[Cerberus v666]

EBWOP: My post wasn't intended to give the impression I thought Shiro was scum.

Mobile posting ftl.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, a note to eveeyone...as a courtesy to our less involved people, because I really don't want to make anyone stop feeling engated, Iwon't be saying much, if anything, for the next 24 hours at least. Jeanne, I suggest you do the same.

People, get caught up and be useful.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't want to be replaced. >.>

You won't be! We're just gonna be quiet so we don't bloat the thread for the half of the game that isn't posting and thus might not be reading.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, if I don't post at all, I will be replaced.

It's in the rules......

I am beginning to question are you and others really that smart when you don't even know the rules.....

24 hours Jeanne. I didn't say forever.

[Cerberus v666]

16 hours. Not bad.

Mass flop: Something you should know. I will always be perplexed by bad town play and call people out on it, regardless of my alignment. That means getting irritated at early vigs and such. I mean, you're right, but I don't think that the reason you have is one which will help you accurately sort me in the future.

With regards to Jeanne's paranoia rather than antagonism: for what it's worth, this is the exact same behavior that I saw from her in our one prior game together. Apparently Shiro recently fooled her somehow and has made her insanely paranoid.

Shiro: I'm quite confused by why, flavor wise, you'd have to visit a doctor to cure your amnesia. I mean, for your characters flavor. Pretty sure you cure all the shit that's wrong with you yourself. Just...hmph. Also, why did you flavor claim?

D1 wagons are usually pretty lacking in reasons, but I feel this TN wagon is particularly unjustified. All I've seen is one post role play directed me to, in which TN references a past game to explain his read on someone else, which at least a couple other people have already done this game as well....but somehow TN doing it is scummy.

Roleplay: why is TN more scummy than others who have done something similar?

[Cerberus v666]

@Elbirn @Shiro can I join the masonry?

Aren't you afraid of shiro or something?

I town-read her here. We all town-read each other here, so why can't I be honorary masons with you both.

Elbrin isn't a good townread. Upon reading that VC, Agent Titus is moving back to DS. The company (minus Jeanne and roleplay) isn't good on TN and his response although pretty offensive to me personally, reeks of town wanting to sort people.

VOTE: DS

~Titus

You mean you have a scum lean on elbirn then, yes? Since you eliminated all the other members of the wagon other than yourself.

[Cerberus v666]

@elbrin, yes.

Doesn't count. You look like you're swinging, not hunting. I am going to have to discuss this with Drixx. We are having minor tech difficulties.

~Titus

So, what would be your list of "people who are suspicious because they don't like the idea of having millers and the confusion they cause in the end game"?

[Cerberus v666]

AtE always muddies the water, that is the objective, that is why it's a scum tactic. It is difficult to tell if someone means whatever they're saying and are just saying it because it's on their mind, or if it's a ploy by scum.

As such, if you're town and have any control over it, it is beneficial to the rest of town to restrain yourself from anything which might be viewed any AtE.

[Cerberus v666]

That was purely in response to the accusation that letting AtE muddy the waters made one a shit player. Also, I'm not especially convinced of, well, any of the suggested lynches scumminess, and if DS is town, and lives, I'd prefer to have him not jump into this whole spiel about being a shit player who's useless and should be lynched.

If you're town, don't let yourself die. If you're scum, don't let yourself die. Seriously.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm letting myself die because all anybody ever does is insult my reads and playstyle and never bothers to offer an alternative.

So? I don't really know what insults you think people have directed at you, but I do know that their insults aren't a reason to let your slot die. You're being unproductive and bringing stupid drama into the thread. If you're town, get over yourself and go fucking scumhunt. It's D1, nobody has ANY strong reason to vote anyone else, just stop sucking and be useful, that way even if they DO lynch you, you'll have actually given us material to work for tomorrow.

Jeanne, that kinda goes for you too, until you reach L-2 AT LEAST I wouldn't worry about the chance of getting lynched at this point.

Anyways, ths is all useless crap we're talking about here. I still want a response from LH about their decision to dislike Elbirn over the miller thing.

[Cerberus v666]

You're missing the point. I mean right now, what you're doing, THAT isn't helping. I said nothing about your previous contributions, and if you haven't noticed, I'm actively questioning the people who jumped on you about it.

[Cerberus v666]

Roleplay, why do you believe that?

[Cerberus v666]

Bring up on your pad the following logs:

I'm disappointed. You guys are actually town-reading me even though I admitted I was PMuch active-lurking.

Followed by these:

I'm letting myself die because all anybody ever does is insult my reads and playstyle and never bothers to offer an alternative.

I'm letting myself die because all anybody ever does is insult my reads and playstyle and never bothers to offer an alternative.

Are we to believe that this is an agent who is honestly frustrated that people dislike his style, after he previously complained that he was

not

called out for his style?

Or is this an agent trying and failing to blend in?

I approve of your play. Let's make a deal roleplay. You stop posting the way you are, and I'll get an avatar. Everybody else in the game is happy.

Note, I don't mind your roleplay, but it does make it slightly harder to determine your objectives in your speech.

Now, about the point you made : he has a problem with your posting style, not your play style. He's saying people have a prpblem with his play style. The contradiction you believe you see in those posts doesn't exist...the other points I'll consider.

Also, wtf people, screw the holiday, come participate.

[Cerberus v666]

Jeanne, what are you thoughts on DS and TN?

[Cerberus v666]

He wants to know if your role says "investigation results will always return guilty", or "investigation results will always return x faction" or investigation results will always be the opposite of the normal result", stuff like that.

They could all be called millers, but they all interact differently with other roles.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, what are your thoughts on, well, everything?

[Cerberus v666]

Errant: What did you dislike about DS' early game? I apologize if you've covered that already, but I'm mobile and at work and not gonna comb ISO's for the moment.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm, so basically the same set of posts everybody else dislikes. I need to get home and see who started ths trend of disliking those posts. I don't think much was said about 278 when it occurred.

[Cerberus v666]

@elbrin, yes.

Doesn't count. You look like you're swinging, not hunting. I am going to have to discuss this with Drixx. We are having minor tech difficulties.

~Titus

So, what would be your list of "people who are suspicious because they don't like the idea of having millers and the confusion they cause in the end game"?

Drixx and I are discussing this. He thinks you're overly cautious due to Stevens Universe where Grapes was a scummy miller. I don't. I think you're taking a snarky dig here and that's not town you.

Fact is millers are usually town. Talking about chain lynching millers is sketchy as fuck. Even if there's scum millers, those interactions are VERY informative.

Hmm. Completely missed this before. I'm being neither overly cautious/paranoid about millers(and cautious how, btw? The originally expressed thought that we should remove the one miller I had noticed, or the later decision that removing all millers on principle was too much?), nor am I being snarky. I just wondered why you(and everyone else) were going after DS for repeating an idea I initially mentioned, while I wasn't getting any pressure for it. It's inconsistent, and I don't like inconsistent behaviors.

*claps hands* Time for a survey.

Where are you going for holidays? My grandmothers, just the next town over, and we'll all go see a movie together.
What's your favorite food? Lasagna! So delicious.
Do you believe in God? Nope.
Which present would you like the most? Being a grown ass man whose birthday is on Christmas, I advise everyone that the best gift they could give me is to nit give me anything or expect anything from me, thus saving me from the trouble of planning for spending a buncha money for this holiday, and spending a buncha hours dealing with shopping in some form.

If, however, someone were to come into a windfall of some sort and just have to get gifts for everyone, I would like: A new gaming computer, a new bed, or a new TV.

No idea who this Anita person is, and Google did not help.

Regarding the roleplay: KC thing...I'm glad you're noticing these things but you're certainly overreacting to them. Those roles she expressed are ones which explain why DS is acting the way he is. Though it is unusual for someone to jump to the conclusion that someone who seems to have given up on not getting lynched might be one of those roles, it's not damning.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. So that's 3 slots with claims that make town investigations negative, and an expressed belief that there are multiple redirection/roleblocking effects in the game.

Pedit: don't be stupid. Of course we're not mass claiming.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. That's twice now that somebody else gets the credit/blame for something I did first. :p (this is in reference to explaining why kcs post wasn't particularly scummy)

[Cerberus v666]

Town - Cereberus

Next in line please.

Umm... why? The sample PM that Dram provided said Bystander. There is an implied modifier that almost always appears with that word: innocent. I don't see how you can confirm someone is town because they say their role pm says they are faction: bystander (especially now that Dram clarified). And no townie should have had any confusion because there's no way the win condition for bystander would be worded so vaguely if it was neutral, and if it was scum there would be a link to a scum pt, right?

So you're trying awfully hard to get town credit by appearing to "test" people, but your test isn't actually testing anything. Everyone in this game who got a town PM is smart enough to know that they got a town PM. I mean... Dram clarified, which is erring on the side of caution, but still. I'm trying to decide whether you really think you came up with some way to sort people with this or whether you're putting on a show. Titus is good at day one; I'll ask her. I would tend to lean towards you putting on a show being what we're seeing.

In any case, Dram has clarified so even if you legitimately thought you were getting something of value from what you were doing, the mod blew it up by clarifying.


Love, with eggnog made a little less thick with warm milk, and of course fresh from the oven cookies,
Drixx

Favorite post this game so far,

So far, I don't like the way dice is playing. That might change in the future, though.

Me neither.

VOTE: 3dice

I got 3dice as scum on opposite teams. That whole interaction is fake. Too early to be super sure, but let's see what comes out.

~Titus

This is actually so bad, it might actually be too bad to be scum.

And thus my weak Titus read has been procked, yay town hand!
Also 3dice may be scum here.

So, eh, just curious, what does everyone think would be the single most overpowered single target non game breaking non killing thing you could target someone with that benefits town? Let's call this a thought experiment. Skies the limit, except for the limits I made. Make stuff up.

pedit: Elbirn, maybe. I'm leaning towards one of the two of them being scum though, and that shiro just missed the first miller claim the same way I did, since it was just quote and a single word response in a post with other content. Unfortunately, in a situation like this we line ourselves up for two mislynches pretty easily, given that I'm sure the game has it's fair share of absurdity going on, which may very well include two millers.

peditx2: dun dun dun the omgus!

either this is a really bad soft claim where it really should be, or (more likely) this is scum reaching. The way I read this scum doesn't know how strong town roles are, so they are trying to weed out a cap before any potential claim.

@cerb, are you seriously going with the you should tolerate me being suboptimal defense? Yeah, that's not cool. Now, you're walking back your suggestion to lynch the millers. You need votes.

@elbrin, I think it's a strong possibility. 100% certainty, no. I think they both are likely millers, but that says nothing of their alignment. Scum would be dumb to cc miller, unless they were one given the heat millers get.

@3dice, huh?

@jeanne, why hesitant on calling it what it is? Both town and scum OMGUS.

I don't think you should tolerate me being suboptimal, but I think you should also realize that I feel just me putting a vote on them does way less for me than interacting with them and others does. The way I read you pointing out the flaw in my choices, the ones which you should expect, and thus should have no reason to point out, is an attempt to make sure those who don't know me and haven't played with me are aware of this "nonsensical" thing that I'm doing, this apparent contradiction between words and actions, so if you need to you have just that tiny bit of extra support for getting me lynched.

So don't tolerate me being suboptimal, but that can't ever be used to at all ever against me because it might help me get lynched later, I don't get why town would go for this defense. Basically it is saying sorry I'm new, but reads awkwardly because you also want to make sure you won't get lynched today. This is a FoS for now, probably will become a vote at the end of my catch-up

The fact that there are *two* miller claims changes the situation and puts us in a spot where, if we lynch both millers...and they actually are town...we just lined up two mislynches, and that inspires caution.

Has anyone said 'oh we should just lynch both millers', stating the obvious does not a town post make, quite the opposite in fact...

When you say "you need votes" are you saying people need to vote fo rme to put pressure on me, or are you saying that I need to vote in order to get the millers lynched?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sharky

I think Elbirn is town for this, I get the same vibes about Sharky. I've learned that those vibes are null, but I understand exactly where the naked vote came from at that point.

Catch up will continue.

Also hi 3die, happy christmas!

I don't get lynched. I've been lynched twice in I have no idea how many games, but enough that I'm uncertain how many I've played(once by a scum team push when I was a SK) and neither one was a mislynch. I lack the words to communicate exactly how little fear of it I have. There's also a lot of subtext in that post, given most of my games on site have been with Titus, and given that Drixx knows me exceedingly well. You're free to scumread me for it, but it's a bad reason to scumread *me*. Also...I'm not new. I choose to do things my own way, because I utilize my votes in a different fashion than others, and I'm paranoid about quick lynches, not because I'm "new". Nobody should excuse bad play from me, if I'm inconsistent please fucking hang me for it, but where my vote is has little to do with my goals, and both heads of LH should know that very well.

About your other comment...I'm the one who originally suggested lynching millers, but my suggestion came after two claims came, when I thought there was only one. That post is specifying *why* my opinion on lynching miller claims changed from my previously held one..

Also welcome, I'm glad you're in the game and omg I can't express what a relief it is that someone is actually scum reading me, I thought I'd have to dive deep into the deliberate scumminess tank to give scum some reason to not shoot me.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerberus pulls unlynchable role every game. The skill is real.

Word. I was IC one of those times, and mason another one of the games, so those are pretty unlynchable and I don't really deserve the credit there. :p

[Cerberus v666]

^^ I like making a big show of not being lynched, never being mislynched in spite of a style people typically read as scummy in the early game is a point of pride for me.

You do realize that being unhappy to read a day (btw, a day where very little happened, it's like two pages because nobody else was talking) where your existing scum reads aren't talking is basically admitting to massive confbias in your read through of the game. You're not searching for scum, you're searching for reasons why the conclusions you've already arrived at are correct.

[Cerberus v666]

I am going to read those pages obviously. But I know that I generally don't change scumreads this early based on what other people say, so if I am going to change my read on you two it would only come from your posts. When you guys stop posting (under weird circumstance) it means that any confbias I had won't improve until I get past that day.

I will say you haven't really addressed the reasons I am scumreading you, but are focusing on the comments that went along with that read.

I honestly don't want to mess up your mislynch streak, but you keeping on throwing the word mislynch in for no good reason is like saying "I'm town" a whole bunch of times. It sucks in general, and is marginally scummy.

As much as I don't like your confidence in not being lynched, I do really think that you and jeane are scum together completely independent of that.

That would be because I'm not concerned about you scumreading me because enough of this game has played with me before to know the reasons you're given are common reasons to scum read me for those who haven't played with me before. If I were playing with a game full of strangers I might consider taking the time(while mobile) to show you why your reasons are wrong(there's at least one point where you apparently misunderstood me) but, meh. Not worth right now, and it's much more useful to me to see how you act while scum reading me than it is to waste time defending myself.

[Cerberus v666]

Besides, I will never go after tn.

You are voting tn?

what the fuck?


Does anyone else not understand why RP25 isn't sharing his reasoning with anyone about anything?

RP25's lack of clear communication is a bit annoying, but I think he's actually given his reasons for all of his reads...but none of the reasons are especially strong.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't have any, I hate D1, I think it's all people blowing air up each other's asses because there are no FACTS to go off of, and I only work off of probabilistic reasoning.

If you'll direct your attention to LH's first few posts, you'll see then ask me for reads, and see me get irritated at them for asking me for something they should know I won't do on day one due to lack of information.

[Cerberus v666]

The holidays are screwing with things too, normally I would be pushing klingon and LH for more content, because I expect a lot from both their slots, but because of the holidays their lack of posting is meaningless. Sucks man.

[Cerberus v666]

There's a difference between asking for reads early in the game and 600 posts in though.

No, there isn't, because either way we still have 0 flips. Everything that's been said is just as much useless BS now as it was then.

Also, the phrase is blowing smoke up each other's asses, not air. What a silly thing to mess up.

Pedit: I wouldn't call Jeanne opportunistic. Maybe insane though. Definitely not predictable at least.

[Cerberus v666]

I wish I could double vote, my feels say that I want Sharky dead like yesterday, like I read his words and I'm like "God you're scum"

But I can't overlook Jeanne being bullshit like that

I wholeheartedly support the death of both of them, please more votes on Jeanne and sharky

What I find especially interesting is that that whole exchange I had with Jeanne was essentially me thinking she had some reason to want scum to shoot at her, what with the mason claim and all, which led me to thinking alright, pgo or bomb, but that made me afraid that any town cops/doctors would see what I saw and try to save her, and thus...unintended consequences, she kills one scum and multiple town power roles.

And then she tells me nope, she's not trying to get shot.

And then she tells us yep, I've got a role that wants to be shot at by scum.

...

I will say though, in spite of all that, Jeannes unpredictable, but she's not dumb. I'm assuming she had more of a plan going into things than she's acting like she did.

Also, just because this was a lolzy thought I had, has there ever been a game with masons who were both millers together? So, it would essentially look to town, if they investigated, as though they were two scum pretending to be masons? This is not a suggestion for something which might be related to this game, it's wholly a random thought I had while eating delicious food today.

[Cerberus v666]

3dice: scum pgo? Umm. That's fucking OP as fuck. Like shit man, fucking godfather+ascetic on steroids. I guess if it were a limited shot PGO, it would function as a x shot random kill that's guaranteed to hit town, so I suppose it's possible, but that seems...crazy.

[Cerberus v666]

Hi elbirn, when did you change names and drop your avatar?

Oh right, you don't know me. I answer whatever I want, because I don't care what you're trying to accomplish.

[Cerberus v666]

And, because I get bored. That's part of it too. I refresh compulsively. it's a problem.

[Cerberus v666]

That is an interesting report. Given that knowledge, and the knowledge that the moderator considers feeding agents false information as fair game, I believe it is of paramount importance to determine, as closely as possible, the exact wording of said miller powers. This leads me to an interesting bit of speculation that may or may not have any basis in fact.

May one of our two millers give a close approximation of exactly what their role PM says regarding their miller component?

Once the information has been received I shall update to explain.

Yeah okay, champ. What about the tits I asked for?

Mod: 5 hours past prod time for this one here. ^^

All the rest of you are not too inactive. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Roleplay, why is it you're the only one who finds KCs words to be scummy? Do you have some other reason for that read?

[Cerberus v666]

So, Cererbus reminds me how I played my first games (with the whole I hate D1 stuff) so I'll keep a good eye on his posts, since I'm probably most qualified to analyze this sort of stuff.

Jeanne, if you have something to say but you can't say it, DONT HINT AT IT. That'll just make scum want to kill you.

Hmm. Based on what you've said about things in the game, I *think* the way I approach the game is very different than yourself. I hate D1 because my primary way of playing isn't effective here. I read games and watch people's behaviors and stances as the game goes on, from the mindset of "is this or that behavior, or that set of behavior, something I can reasonably see a rational scum slot do, taking into account all previous events/. Do these kills make sense, does pushing this person make sense, does voting this person while pressuring this person make sense, what scenarios can I construct in my mind to MAKE these behaviors make sense, do those scenarios seem more or less likely, etc. Have they been consistent in the narrative they've been telling the game, do the departures from said narrative logically follow the situation they're in. I don't vote for someone until I've established a preponderance of evidence establishing them as far more likely to be scum than town, based on those prior standards. It must be the case that circumstances exist such that it requires multiple things which are unlikely to occur be true in order for the slot to be the opposite of whatever conclusion I arrive at.

Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough context for actions on D1 to establish a confident position like that on someone. It's all throwing shit at the wall and hoping one of the scum is really really bad. So, unless someone obviously contradicts themselves, I don't establish strong positions on anyone, until we have the standard 2 flips from the lynch and nk...and then I can go back and reread with the benefit of that knowledge.

Anyways. Jeanne, I agree with the suspicion of Roleplay based on his wishy washy voting spree. , he seems willing to vote for anyone who attracts the hive minds attention (all low hanging fruit), but I don't believe this is scum behavior. He's drawing pointless attention to himself by constantly changing votes, and I don't that as a benefit to competent scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Jeanne, it's easy to pull people onto a wagon against you because you make it easy. You make them think that the game will be easier to play and more enjoyable for them with you gone....so the level of certainty they need in order to be willing to vote you is lower. Stop making it easy to get yourself lynched. Make the game easy to play, and enjoyable, while you're here.

[Cerberus v666]

Pip, regarding 656: I don't care about the credit, I care about the fact that this is the second time another person has said something I said previously, and there was no response to my assertion. The first time it was DS getting massive scumreads off a miller idea I floated originally, which I didn't get massive scum reads for, and that was the second. It's inconsistent for someone to garner a read from someone based on an idea which was already brought up by someone else, and not have any sort of feeling about the individual who originally raised the point. I wanted/still want to know if their is some reason for the inconsistency.

Also, Jeanne might be scum (the way I see it, there is a 50% chance), but she's also mislynch bait, even more so than DS. I might be willing to vote roleplay eventually. K

I'd also be willing to vote any of the people who haven't contributed much, on the theory that we lose minimally if wrong/lurkers don't give enough information for their absence to limit my ability to solve the game.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, google Vi Graythorn, then you'll know.

"were born into the secret crime syndicate" hmm. Might've picked the wrong flavor to claim Jeanne.

Flavor is beyond meaningless in this game(beyond determining likelihood of mechanics, I supposs),it's a Upick. And...if you read the entire bio, it's obvious that the character is a protagonist, not an antagonist, in the source material.

That comment did make me chuckle though, so it's got that going for it.

DS: well, you are playing with a lot more confidence in reads on people than I would expect from someone who preferred logic and evidence over gut.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't mind you posting a a long as it's substantial posts, such as thoughts on other slots and questions you may have for them.

[Cerberus v666]

Jeanne is naturally scummy, doesn't make her scum. *shrug*

LH: We can discuss this when I see you invested in the game.

[Cerberus v666]

LH: That's s cop out, you are perfectly capable of playing and analyzing in spite of the noise. And yes, it's not a white knght, but it is a statement of fact. I find Jeanne's behavior consistently anti-town and scummy, but I know that doesn't make her scum, she's not consistent enough for it to be that easy. I say this even though if you guys lynch her, it makes my life infinitely easier.

[Cerberus v666]

She is a weak tracker neighbor, I believe is what she means. She is my neighbor. She said for us to not target her in the pregame talk, which is why I assumed she was pgo/bomb and that whole weird interaction happened earlier. If she means she is a neighborizer though, rather than just a neighbor, that's fucking weird.

[Cerberus v666]

Ahh, right, that clears things up a bit more.

Is the "weak" bit this being-targeted-roleblocks thing? The reason I was confused is because traditionally weak means target-scum-and-die.

Jeanne, don't worry about being nightkilled. Frankly, I doubt it will happen, no offence.

PEdit waat? But people refer to me by my real name all the time and I never told them or gave them permission /joke

Yeah, the weak thing is definitely non standard.

[Cerberus v666]

also, it actually is neighbor, not neighborizer.

Details are important Jeanne. If you weren't my neighbor, I would lynch you for that. FYI. Like, seriously.

Also, this is why I'm saying it would make my life WAY easier if you just killed her. I have no idea what her alignment is, and if I don't have to think about whether or not to utilize our neighborhood, my life is simpler.

[Cerberus v666]

If there is scum in there, it isn't me.

I recommend not saying anything more about the neighborhood, thanks.

[Cerberus v666]

No. You've done enough anti-town stuff already. Serio. No more information, you've said enough.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm not especially worried about that, but thank you for the warning.

[Cerberus v666]

Jeanne, also, someone scumreading you IS NOT a reason to think they're scum. Like, seriously, worst reason ever, stop using it, please. I really want to help you play in a fashion that doesn't aggravate everyone, but you make it REALLY REALLY hard when you do stuff like that.

So, eh, reads and shit. Fuck. You're all useless. LH, I'm super suspicous of you because you guys haven't said or done anything, and that's uncharacteristic for both of you. Jeanne is null as fuck because of her standard omg you're all going to kill me noise. RP needs to give reasons for his reads, I'd be quite okay with him being lynched, simply because in spite of his apparent attempt at game solving, he isn't doing so in a way that actually unifies the town, that is, by actually giving reasons for us to agree with.

That's off the top of my head, I'll think about other people at some point when I'm not playing DnD.

pedit: Seriously, insults are no good. Oh, and Davsto, why did you just out your roles utility for no reason right now?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, RP, what happened man? You have become angry. You are no longer roleplaying. I don't like this you as much.

My point is still valid, that you're just being, well, an ass and not unifying town or justifying your reads well. I agree that sharky's iso is shit.

pedit: tn makes a valid point. It takes a supremely incompetent scum team to deliberately silence you in a situation like this.

Davsto: Sure, I just don't think there was any need to expose yourself at this point in the day. Later in the day is good, but not right now.

[Cerberus v666]

Naw, sharky sucks too. Sure. No hint of scum hunting there, absolutely.

Anyways, here's the thing: I don't care if you guys can manage to read me or not, i don't care if I'm making you post obvious shit to me, what's important to me is that you're infodumping thoughts into the thread with the reasons why you have those thoughts. so I can judge the merit of your processes. I understand if you want the same from me, that's perfectly reasonable, but that's why I'm more concerned with asking you why you believe what you believe, rather than stating my reasons and having you use those.

Pedit: Seriously. D1 policy lynch for posting style is pretty stupid, especially when there are WAY more suspicious people in here.

Pedit x2: Agreed on action required to sotp the personal attacks. You guys need to have fun and love your fellow man.

[Cerberus v666]

Naw, sharky sucks too. Sure. No hint of scum hunting there, absolutely.

Anyways, here's the thing: I don't care if you guys can manage to read me or not, i don't care if I'm making you post obvious shit to me, what's important to me is that you're infodumping thoughts into the thread with the reasons why you have those thoughts. so I can judge the merit of your processes. I understand if you want the same from me, that's perfectly reasonable, but that's why I'm more concerned with asking you why you believe what you believe, rather than stating my reasons and having you use those.

Pedit: Seriously. D1 policy lynch for posting style is pretty stupid, especially when there are WAY more suspicious people in here.

Pedit x2: Agreed on action required to sotp the personal attacks. You guys need to have fun and love your fellow man.

I don't give a damn about how you post. I care about your motives a bit.

I want you to vote scum with me. Please work with me.

We have lots of time. I'm not voting anything anytime soon. Look elsewhere if you wish to find votes to support the counterwagon you want to see.

pedit: That's okay Errant. I'm not here to win people over, I'm here to find scum. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Actually...shit. I actually agree with everything roleplay is saying. Fuck, that's terrible. Granted, it'd all low hanging fruit, as it were, but that doesn't mean his analysis isn't accurate. tns contradictions with regard to Jeanne are probably the most damning thing in the thread though.

tn, how can you go from stating she's capable of pulling off complex effective plays, while simultaneously calling her incompetent?

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, I should probably clarify that Im not necessarily sold about KC, but there could be merit. Titus, why aren't you pushing KC for their lack of "fire" this game?

[Cerberus v666]

Not liking EAP saying neighbor = town.

If singlball, Klingon is almost certainly town. There's a big difference between here and Suikoden and her other scumgames. Not liking the OMGUS but Kling has always been focused on herself.

To that end, while I don't see any glaring flaws with Roleplay's analysis, the fact he's equally confident both are scum is jarring me. If Klingon is town and they are both equally scummy...that would make Sharky town.

I will flag Drixx and let him use our vote as he wishes till I feel better.

He said he's a reflexive friendly neighbor. I take that to mean at least one other party will get confirmation of his alignment.

[Cerberus v666]

Hi, I'm always here. What do you think of EAPs unasked for claim which just served to reduce hammer time to a race to see who can send in their actions fastest? :p

[Cerberus v666]

Whoever targets him will receive mod confirmation that he is town. It's not something fakeable it's easy to check, but it has a built in defense or "oh, I guess scum must have targeted me first" which he has now increased the likelihood of, thereby lowering his roles usefulness, increasing the chance that multiple town will target him and waste a bunch of actions, AND disincentivizing cops from checking him, because why waste a cop on someone when all you'll get its the same result someone else can get without wasting a cop shot.

[Cerberus v666]

Meh. Went from 4 on Jeanne to 6 on Sharky and 3 on Jeanne. Hmph.

Sharky, unless you think we're especially likely to hammer without intent, I wouldnt, but you can!

[Cerberus v666]

Hey roleplay, don't say what it is, but is there a claim Sharky couod make which you would consider plausible, and which would change your read on him to at least a town lean?

I hate the claim or die talk, because usually people don't care what the claim is.

Pedit: yay for the badgering school of thought, it's super effective! /s

[Cerberus v666]

LH: the difference between this game and suikoden, where we had these exact two players, one of whom is behaving the same way, is...that it's happening over the holidays? What else?

[Cerberus v666]

Hey, sharky, why are you stealing my thought process? Before I posted that you were all like oh hey, I guess I should clam...then I suggested it might be suboptimal, and you are now listening to me. Do you have a hard town read on me or what?

[Cerberus v666]

I should claim now, correct?

Meh. Went from 4 on Jeanne to 6 on Sharky and 3 on Jeanne. Hmph.

Sharky, unless you think we're especially likely to hammer without intent, I wouldnt, but you can!

This. The clear dorection there is that you should wait for l-1 and intent to claim, which is what you just claimed you were doing, but just a couple posts earlier you were clearly leaning towards claiming, and nobody else has supported not claiming but myself.

[Cerberus v666]

I really need to read some isos. I look at the playerlist and just wish I had more from almost everyone, but I know you guys have said stuff, it's just been lost and I've been semi-lazy because nobody gave me advice on the spreadsheeting. :p

Pedit: roleplay is like 70/30 town, I would say.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, mastin wouldn't give him a fake claim. She would explain the fake additions to make to his real role that give it town utility. :p

Pedit: understood, stubbornness, got it. If you're not gonna claim out of spite,go find some scum or something then. Thanks!

[Cerberus v666]

Sure, valid point rp, but I don't care if he claims or not. I don't think a claim exists that gets him out of being lynched unless someone like LH or Mass flop decide to get off their asses amd defend him. :p I do want to see him go find some scum for us and give better reasons than just a list of players.

[Cerberus v666]

Pretty sure I know exactly what he's hinting at btw, roleplay. Well, some variant of it. That also plays into my lack of interest in his claim, cuz it's not gonna save him. I might be wrong though! We'll see, I would hate to give him ideas.

[Cerberus v666]

Naw, no helping here, sorry man. Plus, I might be wrong! So those people you have as numm scum or strong town, wanna say why?

[Cerberus v666]

Damn phone posting. Missed words and shit. No, Sharky, I meant I want to know where the scum leans+ come from, what made you feel tha way about those slots, and what made the strong town reads strong. Null town and nulll are whatever, I don't care about your thoughts on those.

[Cerberus v666]

Okay, tha twas shitty man. you fucked up that claim. Now what you have to do is unvote, and then revote without someon telling you what to do, so we can actually fucking test what you just claimed.

[Cerberus v666]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... d_Dreamers

[Cerberus v666]

I feel like the mod could easily reject *all* of your suggestions, LH. He said it allowed him to perform an action that affects one person. Not that he has any choice on how the action is implemented or how the results of the action are displayed. Publicly posting a players pm(public mod confirmation) definitely relates to how the results are displayed, nk a random scum would require that he knows who the scum is, I assume, and ignoring godfather or miller seems unreasonable. All of those seem unworkable. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Making the first lynch of the day not be fatal and not end the day...that is pretty specific, nad might work, but the mod might just...ya know....*not* give us their flip.

sharky, you should probably ask for information from the mod about the restrictions of your ability. Hell, you should probably already have a decent list of questions come up if you put any effort into trying to use your power effectively.

[Cerberus v666]

I really don't like the way the vote restriction was handled. Sharky, why didn't you vote in your first post and wait to see who noticed your vote didn't show up in the vc? Why didn't you do SOMETHING to claim the restriction? Roleplay, I HATE that you gave him an out to prevent all testing of the claim. It's scummy as fuck that you went out of your way to prevent us from doing any testing.

[Cerberus v666]

1. Varsoon is my waifu
2. I lied he's not trapping me
3. Reasons I can not divulge at this moment make me doing it more optimal than if anyone else were to do it
4. I don't have any reason to trust zMuffinMan at this point, he's been lurkylurky pretty hard and hasn't done anything to fill me with good feels

Point 3 is almost definitely wrong.

it's not a fruit vendor, it just does nothing

i am interested in how "first person to target" works with multiple actions though

Asked already, per mod a theoretical role as described by EAP would be first targeted based on NAR.

[Cerberus v666]

Elbirn, we shall discuss in post game.

Desperado should indeed go to tn, but who would we want him to desperado?

[Cerberus v666]

Day vigilante that doesn't work on Bystanders?

Basically.

Elbirn, we shall discuss in post game.

Desperado should indeed go to tn, but who would we want him to desperado?

.....sharky?

Seems strong. Either tn dies and Sharky is confirmed town, or Sharky dies and was scum. Which means he wouldn't do it. So instead he would just dream that someone shot tn...

Yeah, never mind, doesn't work if Sharky is scum.

Pedit: still not sure it would work. No way to confirm what sharky actually dreamed.

[Cerberus v666]

Sharky should dream for one of the millers to be an innocent child instead

Boom

Unless that miller is actually scum. Game isn't bastard, so alignment changes aren't on the table I assume.

Pedit: ah duh. Desperado is claimed in thread. That actually fixes that problem. Carry on, forgot desperado is activated in thread.

I like it. Net town benefit unless tn is ascetic.

[Cerberus v666]

It's not even a one for one, it's a guaranteed kill. Of course there's no reason for tn to not falsely claim ascetic now. I guess in that case we choose someone else to be the desperado, and likely lynch tn. A desperado at sharky seems best btw, clearing him is really really good.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, btw LH, you still haven't told me what the difference is between now and Suikoden, with regards to klingon.

[Cerberus v666]

Sharky, you misunderstand. The thought is you should have tn become a compulsive D1 desperado, so he MUST desperado someone today.

Pedit: yes, what LH is saying. Desperado, as defined by the wiki, is a day kill targeted and posted in thread. If the target is town, the desperado dies. If the target is scum, they die.

[Cerberus v666]

Point being, his alignment doesn't matter. Only his targets alignment should.

LH. Hmm. I'll consider that. The two feel similar here, the only difference being she has the holidays to hide behind and you're not pressuring herx so she's had no reason to come up with excuses.

[Cerberus v666]

I recommend running EVERYTHING by dramonic though. Ask "If I dream " I invent a compulsive D1 desperado shot to tn, and my action succeeds, will you alllw it, and what will happen if he is scum? What will happen if he is town?" Ideally you'd want the time limit a day compulsive would have, what happens if he doesn't choose a targef, WHEN whatever happens happens, etc.

[Cerberus v666]

Dunno if he'll answer your questions though, dreamers are weird.

[Cerberus v666]

Gotcha. I recommend finding out.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. I think he means dreaming he can take a desperado shot is something that he is explicitly doing himself, so he doesn't see any reason why it wouldn't giving work, but giving someone else a compulsive desperado shot has more fiddly bits so he's not sure it'll work.

Again, ask the mod. We also need tn in here.

[Cerberus v666]

Desperado is activated in thread, so. Yeah. Meh. Too much talk about this. Just go ask the mod. Seriously. Let's do something else while we're waiting for an answer.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, you can answer my question about why you handled your vote restriction so poorly.

Pedit: umm, not confirmed how? As in, he wouldn't tell you what would happen?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, the point of a desperado shot is we KNOW who you targeted. So..it happens in thread. Did he explain how that would all work too? You dream of making a desperado shot against x, and then, in thread, he flavors it and the results, or do you have to come make the post in thread targeting them, or is this just a desperado shot and suddenly either you'll die or someone else will if they're scum? I guess it doesn't mattee, if you die you're town, so we must trust you did what you said you'd do. Meh. Shitty to have to risk your slot of you're town.

[Cerberus v666]

Your role is stupidly strong. If we can do what LH suggested for multiple days, we are controlling more kills than scum, and potentially clearing town and sculpting a perfect POE endgame for us. It's much better if we don't have to risk you targeting scum and dying. If you're town. If you're scum you're certainly trying to figure out how to screw this up. :p

And again: why did you handle the vote restriction the way you did?

[Cerberus v666]

You can't talk about why you never attempted a vote? The vote may not have worked, but bolding the words Vote: Someone would have resulted in you being mod killed?

Sharky, it is absolutely suboptimal for you to be impatient. Dramonic will answer you, he is just afk. No reason to make a suboptimal play because you made assumptions. Never risk wasting your roles potential.because you make assumptions about the limits..

[Cerberus v666]

Also, there's little reason why it would be rejected. Maybe the compulsive modifier would be rejected, but we can force whoever you give it to to use it on whoever we choose. It's not game breaking because scum can always just shoot you. It's just a strong power.

DS: do not encourage this impatience. Dramonic will not just ignore him. He might day "I will not answer that question", but he won't ignore him.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, that is fantastic. In my opinion, the optimal play is to give it to someone we don't mind vigging, and have that person target you(since desperado is activated in thread(confirm that the gun you give will be activated and targeted in thread)), that will clear you, and kill someone who we would have instead spent a mislynch on. That person may be scum. If they are, they'll just target someone else, but either way, *someone* gets confirmed as town, or they kill a member of their team. Win/Win. Again, optimally they target you, and you get cleared, thereby forcing scum into a wifomy mess for their kill tonight because they now know you can absolutely wreck them, but they also know the rest of the town also knows that.

Those are just my thoughts though, give it to whoever is scummy.

[Cerberus v666]

Welcome back Jeanne. A lot has happened.

[Cerberus v666]

Vi knows. Vi is here because Vi won't mind taking one for the team.

Ah, gotcha. Unfortunately I feel like that wouldn't work. You have a weak modifier that roleblocks you, so I would expect that the act of giving you this invention would roleblock you, which would mean even if you did use it today, it wouldn't work, because your'e roleblocked.

I mean, it might not work that way, but I would be afraid it would work that way. And there are way more suspicious people who should take the shot imo.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes 3dice. And if Sharky is scum, yay we killed him! :p

I also want to know rhe answer to that question. I don't mind terribly, giving it to a miller claim seems very reasonable.

[Cerberus v666]

So errant targets sharky, and if sharky is town errant dies?

Why did you decide to give it to errant? I thought you were giving it to tn?

I would rather errant target Cerb or tn now. The fact Sharky appears to have picked someone other than tn is startling.

Tn is the more universal choice. Cerb would stop this hydra from debating his alignment.

I'm down, but damnit, conftowning me undoes all my hard work at getting scum read. What reason will I have left for being deliberately contrarian?

Also, targeting sharky is still optimal, for the reasons I previously outlined, but I don't care that much. To be honest, I'm pretty solid on a sharky town read at this point, except for the whole giving the invention to errant rather than tn thing, and I know I'm town, so....I guess someone other than sharky or myself is actually truly optimal from my point of view, since we might actually hit scum that way.

[Cerberus v666]

Roleplay, that's what I always do. I can direct you to some example of games where I even specified in my chat with my hydra that I was deliberately being scummy.

If it's not multiball, what am I then? And, well, I think you'd want Errant to use his shot on me if you believe I'm scum at this point, right?

[Cerberus v666]

Because(and roleplay is kinda right about this, if he were talking about someone who isn't me) my play is pretty optimal for convincing scum to not shoot at me, and town to not lynch me. Arguably, one might say my play is pretty optimal for being an SK as well(which their team composition probably wouldn't tell them about either).

Unfortunately, he is talking about me, and I don't lead shit on D1 other than arguments about theory and optimal play.

Anyways, Roleplay, you're clearly someone's alt. you're familiar with Titus and some others. Have you played with me? You did this whole display of begging me to not suck and to work with you, which kinda indicates that you might have some expectations of me, but it could just be that you were exasperated and out of options.

Do you have experience playing mafia with me?

[Cerberus v666]

Roleplay, that's what I always do. I can direct you to some example of games where I even specified in my chat with my hydra that I was deliberately being scummy.

If it's not multiball, what am I then? And, well, I think you'd want Errant to use his shot on me if you believe I'm scum at this point, right?

Nah, there's people I believe are scummier than you, and I have no idea if it's multiball.

If it is, well, I don't particularly care which flavor of scum dies

Do enjoy the panicked denials as you hasten to assure scum that you're not scum though.

Eh, as scum, I think I'd be more inclined to ignore your assertion, but maybe not. I generally react the same way to everything, mainly because the main things that irritate me are people being illogical and inconsistent, so I get uppity about it regardless of alignment. There's nothing illogical or inconsistent about your assertion, it's a reasonable thought for scum to have, if the games multiball.

The other reasonable thought for them to have(which you should probably have yourself, but apparently haven't) is that I'm playing as though I have an extremely powerful role and I'd like the chance to use it. :p I'm assuming you didn't consider that though, because I don't *think* you, as town, would have given scum additional reason to target someone who could be potentially playing in that fashion.

I mean, either way my play should really make scum want to shoot me, if they get past the first level thought of "oh yeah, this dude is totally scumming it up and is gonna get himself lynched".

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and you didn't actually answer my question. You stated you had no preconceived notions...not whether or not you've played with me before. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Itlepip replaced bbmolla, and itle has definitely produced content.

[Cerberus v666]

Why are you so certain on Titus? There's more than a few people who are certain their town, I'd like to know why.

Actually, I think I have a lot of questions that aren't being answered, I'll need to check my iso.

[Cerberus v666]

Sharky, did dramonic define how the compulsive would work and what would happen if a target wasn't chosen?

[Cerberus v666]

Roleplay, by definition a desperado shot is declared in thread.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ado_(Role)

From the wiki: "A Desperado is a role that targets a player during the day in-thread to perform the following action on. If the target is scum (mafia), then their target is killed. If not, they die in a valiant "desperado" attempt."

So yeah. Assuming the role is as described in the wiki (which is a question I wish sharky had asked before submitting his action, as well as ensuring his target publicly claimed they were not ascetic, so there was no uncertainty) he has to announce his target in thread.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, Errant, if you have any thoughts to share with the game, assuming you actually are town, please do so before you shoot, in case you are wrong.

Roleplay, wtf? I just realized that your suggestion would mean we would have no idea who he had targeted if he targeted scum, and thus all we'd know is he died. Did you seriously not realize him not declaring his target makes this way weaker?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, Sharky, don't me being on your case about not getting questions answered personally. I hate to leave things to chance is all, and right now I can't predict what will happen even if you are town doing as they said they would.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, the idea was you (and it wasn't supposed to be you) wouldn't have a choice, you'd have to shoot someone, and if scum you'd have rhe unenviable talk of deciding to kill a teammate for practically no town cred or confirm a townie AND die yourself.

Can you tell us what your new power is/how it works? I'd like to know if it's standard, or if dramonic put some twist on it.

Pedit: no, that doesn't make him an evil genius, it makes sharky either a liar or someone who didn't double check everything before submitting their action.

It doesn't take genius to deliberately misinterpret the action of someone who couldn't be bothered to confirm things before taking action.

[Cerberus v666]

Man, you guys should really unvote sharky. It's dumb for him to be on the edge of lynch when a number of people want him to be shot right now, and if this is a desperado gun he will be confirmed town at that point, but it's quite easy for someone to be stupid and get him killed anyways.

Also, Errant, in the post where you shoot sharky(if you shoot him) please tell us your thoughts on the game, seriously. I would be shocked at this point if sharky was scum, but it's not impossible, so I expect a shot at him to result in your death.

[Cerberus v666]

DS: stop being anti-town. Nobody cares about your ultimatum because you haven't contributed in a significant enough, or obviously pro town enough, fashion.

Errant: don't shoot DS. I see no reason why scum would make that declaration when they're on the chopping block for an untested shot and thus push you more towards just shooting because he's being unnecessarily difficult.

Zmuff: yeah, that's what I was saying once I realized I'm pretty damn sure sharky is town right now. Shooting someone with a better chance of hitting scum seems better. No, I do not have a suggestion, other than the originally planned target of all the tn.

[Cerberus v666]

Thoughts on all these other momentous events that don't directly concern you, EAP?

[Cerberus v666]

I think shooting sharky is worse than other options, but if you're going to shoot someone who is town I the hopes your gun is actually a desperado gun as intended, he's one of the better slots to confirm as town.

[Cerberus v666]

The problem , RP, is if it's a desperado shot we still lose out on the town confirmation aspect because we don't know who he targeted.

[Cerberus v666]

Honestly though, I don't really care how it's used anymore. There's too much conversation about optimizing this and not enough anything else.

[Cerberus v666]

He's never done that in terms as explicit as those zmuffinman is asking for.

[Cerberus v666]

And yes, I do. The fact that I am a tracker justifies it. If I am a little emotional, it's because people can't take a hint.

Please listen to RP. He's absolutely correct.

The role you drew does not justify it. Your behavior is not justified. It is never justified.

Your alignment never justifies it. Other people do not know if you are town or scum, unless they are scum in a guaranteed singleball game. Even in that case, the majority of the game is not scum, and thus does not have that information.

So....when someone scum reads you, and tries to get you lynched...it...is....not...alignment...indicative. It doesn't mean anything on it's own. In the context of other information in the thread, it might be alignment indicative, but the fact that they think you're scummy is not scummy.

Anyways, I have crap to do at work and I have no idea why i'm wasting my time on this right now.

Errant, do whatever you want. If you kill Sharky and he's town I shall be very upset though.

[Cerberus v666]

YOUR CLAIM DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE TOWN! YOU ARE ALLOWED TO LIE IN THIS GAME!

Seriously. There is nothing verifiable about your claim, why the hell should he believe you? You claimed PGO and then altered your claim, that gives him EVERY reason to not believe any further claims you make. How is that so hard to understand for you??

[Cerberus v666]

Anyone can make a decision like that, that is their prerogative. That doesn't mean they're right.

[Cerberus v666]

You're not dying today, and THERE IS NO WAY FOR YOU TO PROVE IT. NONE. Without coordination with someone else so you can both track them AND no where they're supposed to go before they do it, and knowledge that nobody will attempt to block you by just...looking at you, the chance that you can prove your claim is basically nil.

We already proved the neighbor part(or at least, I vouched for you), but that's not even alignment indicative. Hell, even if you are a tracker, that also isn't even alignment indicative.

None of it is.

He could fully believe your claim ,and still think you're town. It isn't like your role is so overwhelmingly strong in the hands of scum that it simply doesn't make any sense.

The only people in this game who should be inclined to believe your claim based on things they KNOW are scum, and that's ONLY if they have a ninja/ascetic on their team, some role that counters a tracker.

[Cerberus v666]

No, he isn't saying you're scum because you're you. He's saying your behavior is anti-town and regardless of alignment it's better if your'e dead. It's the same argument Drixx made in suikoden, and the same reason why he had the LH hydra voting you earlier.

This...shitstorm...you cause, is NOT beneficial to town. We've wasted an absurd amount of time telling you to stop flipping out about getting lynched when there is nowhere CLOSE to the support required for you to get lynched.

Let me say this one final time: Whether someone thinks you are town or scum in thread is not alignment indicative, no matter what your alignment is.

pedit: No, he said you are a bad player, and anti-town, and should be lynched regardless of alignment, AND that he saw you do(I don't even remember what) something in a similar fashion in a scum game.

That's it. That's all he's said. Anything else is shit you've read into what he's said.

pedit #2: What zmuffin said. Ignore it. Focus on the other 15 players.

[Cerberus v666]

BBmolla is no longer in the game, he was replaced by itlepip.

Mod, can you PLEASE fix the playerlist so people stop thinking BBmolla is in the game.

[Cerberus v666]

Is DS scummy too? He just suggested a shot which may potentially just be a vig be used on you.

[Cerberus v666]

You mean, you don't take advice, yes? And if you mean that, then yes. Seriously my friend, I I want very badly for this to not devolve into the Jeanne show on D1, thus letting everybody else get away with doing nothing. We already have one major distraction in the form of the sharky/errant dreamer/desperado shot thing, we don't need another one.

[Cerberus v666]

Errant: which means his role is as described, and he messed up his dream. That means you don't want to save the scum the trouble of killing what is likely the strongest role in the game. It's unlikely he'll be blocked, because it's a day action, and it has nearly limitless potential. All that together means, if you seriously expect the shot you have is a normal vig, and Sharky is going to flip town, you don't friggin shoot him.

[Cerberus v666]

Zmuffin: I've asked Dram A LOT of questions, very specific ones, about my own role, and he has not hesitated to answer any of them fully and expicitly. If there is a fault here, it is in sharky.

[Cerberus v666]

Like "I dream that anyone who attempts to target a player tonight will instead target the next player in the playerlist."

Welcome to a game where scum shoot each other and no one knows what their results mean.

Except...he specifically said his ability could only affect a single target. And the original game(Did you at least read the mods iso on it, to see the context the role came from? I did) there were a number of words which were explicitly forbidden, including a number of words that were synonyms for all/anyone.

I would be inclined to believe your example would not be allowed. As would the majority of actions which would be at the root of your doubt sharky's claim exists.

Hell, let's back this up. Do you know who suggested the vigging/desperadoing? That was Titus. You think Titus is town. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. You also believe 3dice is the one he got his idea from. So, now we're looking at a sharky/titus/3dice scum team, one of whom has the ability to invent something to someone, OR a sharky/titus/3dice/errant team, where nobody has the ability to invent anything, but someone does have the ability to send in a kill.

Can you feel the weight of improbability bearing down on your conclusion? It is exceedingly unlikely that 3-4 members of the scum team would collaborate in this blatant fashion to give one of their team a desperate shot that will ONLY buy them one day. Tomorrow we'll demand something new, some new power, and hell, we can make sure the person doing the demanding isn't part of the pool of people who provided the options today, and then OMG look he can't do this new fucking thing, so sharky dies.

He's town. His claim is real. Deal with it.

pedit: He has said nothing about shots, which makes the assumption be that he is unlimited, but it could be wrong.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes, and if that's the case, if things are DELIBERATELY NOT PLAYING OUT THE WAY THE PLAYER INTENDED, then dram is a bastard.

And he's already said he's not a bastard in this game.

If, however, Sharky screwed up in his phrasing, or didn't ask the right questions...well, thats a different matter entirely, and seems completely possible.

[Cerberus v666]

Just curious, is anyone opposed to errant shooting tn, other than tn himself? I don't think anyone's opposed that.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey, EAP, will you be informed when your reflexive power is triggered? That is, if zmuffin goes ahead nad uses his useless power now to prevent anybody else from possibly learning your alignment, would you know that it happened, or would you have no idea?

[Cerberus v666]

Zmuffin: Point taken, I meant ot make an EBWOP post clarifying that I meant his claim was real, and thus he wasnt' lying, and thus RP's main reasoning for thinking he should be shot at, that is, that he is lying, is wrong. I just kinda jumped some logical connections there. I have no reason to think he's town, but I don't feel it's worth the loss of that role, EVEN IF HE IS SCUM, if he's obligated to do as we request.

DS: That's what I just said? If he is deliberately misinterpreting things, in spite of reasonable rational interpretation that leads to the result the player desires, that is bastard. If sharky screwed up and asked for the wrong thing(or town screwed up and gave him bad suggestions in his wording), then that's not bastard.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. I mean, theoretically, in that circumstance, the optimal dream would have been "I dream that <target> will use a desperado shot on someone before the end of D1."

That basically guarantees that the target will have a desperado shot, and makes it effectively compulsive because the power is being used before the end of D1.

If that's the case, it's a dumb hoop to go through, and I feel really really sorry for sharky(who is relatively new) being put in a position where he would have had to ask a lengthy series of questions ignoring standard assumptions to figure out how his role was intended to work.

[Cerberus v666]

tbh, if i were a lucid dreamer as sharky has described it, i would just be submitting literally hundreds of dreams and asking what happens if i submit each of them

not only because it would be helpful, but also because dram would deserve it

Ditto. Maybe not hundreds, but maybe a few. In a spreadsheet. In mad libs fashion. What happens if I change this to this or this to this or that to that or this person is this and I mame this happen etc

[Cerberus v666]

No worries DS. I suggest you relax man, it's just a game. Don't let it get you worked up it's just not worth it.

About being confrontational : of course you and everyone are allowed to be, but that doesn't mean there aren't shitty ways to do it. Saying "I'm gonna be useless unless that player is removed" is a sbitty way of doing it.