Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[farside22]

Stop lurking farside

What a nice way to say welcome back.
Missed you too.

I'll get to this game tomorrow.
Night, night.

[farside22]

Well I lied and just read the first 3 pages just now.

I don't look at whom replaced in this game ifor personal is here,,,,,,,HI!!!!!!!


Town reads thus far:
Lane
Percival

Town vibe mm
Reminds me of a newbie foot in mouth I've seen many times

Leaning scum gut:
Infinity something he posted caught my attention in regards too MM that was a red flag and frankly I want to reread a bit better to make sure I'm not crazy.

Scum:
Rc
Faq2

Reasons meta from 6 months ago.
Not sure if FA has changed but I don't recall him very chatty and in depth at the beginning of a post.
RC'so long post was just lots of words without really.......Scum hunting. It read as more sociable if that makes sense.

Now I'm going to bed.

[farside22]

Infinty: [urlhttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=8027773#p8027773]post 63 [/url] red flag post on this was how he attacked MM on just one post and ignores the fact MM was talking about lane in the first place in a previous post.

post 68 I wondered why rc gets a pass for adding nothing new to the game and bit talks nothing but about playing poker is OK to do but MM is scum.

The back and forth with lane on page 4 is weird.
Ask about MM, Lane votes with reason forum and insanity is suspicious of that????

OK I want to smack infinity as of page 5 and move him into null town.

Quibixies:moves into null scum. Thus far focus only on MM and has add zilch else to the game.
The teammate comment about lane and MM is completely out of left field no reason crap.


FA: noting for just repeating what was said already.
And infinity doesn't call out FA.


RC: straws? Someone is being defensive and touchy
I saw the vote count you were voting MM, point?


BBT: why the vote on MM?
Why are you playing mafia?

Stopped on page 7

[farside22]

558 is ugly.

Farside, is your RC read meta based? Because I don't really see it.

RC'so long post was just lots of words without really.......Scum hunting. It read as more sociable if that makes sense.

I don't think this is really a strong tell for most people... especially for experienced players like RC who can for sure pretend to scumhunt as scum if they want to.

RC: straws? Someone is being defensive and touchy
I saw the vote count you were voting MM, point?

These points are also pretty weak and seem to be grasping at straws themselves.

@Infinity: please stop treating MM a total newb; that seems to be the picture you're painting, but it's been established that he isn't. What of his narrative doesn't make sense from scum who has experience on another forum? And what was particularly open or relaxed about farside's catchup?

You want to explain why your protecting RC?
As for meta on RC no, he'said someone I remember but not what his playstle.
You think being defensive for an experienced players is town??,???
Sure maybe if it was valid but that was page five and RC push was weak.
Why is MOI'so points against RC reachy?

Meh reading you as town thus far whom will probably not really read what people are saying or being stubborn.

Anyway I'm on page 10 calling FAQ2 scum.
Talk about weak pushes.

I like fire assassin. Cheeky players and casual comment just make me smile.
Fire'station instincts suck.
Yes I have reasons for my town read.
I just don't share unless I find it worth my time to share.

Rc post http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8042850 makes me vomit.
Nothing he's attacking moi for is scummy and is just a smear campaign.
No I'm not bias.


Totaling agreeing with infinty with in regards to RC

Quibix continues to tunnel MM and ignore large gaps in the game without engaging with MM.
Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Stopped at page 14, with luck maybe done tonight

[farside22]

Wow MOI was ranting a lot this game.
Makes me glad I took time off.
Some of the back and forth with RC reads as rough history.

Rc: left field much? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8052600
Seriously why?

BBT: you high?


I'm tempted to already put s_so on ignore, muse fight old urges....

faq2, why is lane scummy for going all in if his partner isn't mm? No one other than mm called him.

Scum is in {faq2, bbt, fire} with an off chance of rc, persivul, or qubixes
AtE: A shit buzzword people use whenever town is frustrated.

I've got FAQ2, rc, Quibix especially.
Bbt I'd Lynch and lose no sleep over doing so.


Awwww persivul:(

It's nice to see bbt do something finally this game.

Fire: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8057438
I'm good with this.

we

HI my love, sorry you drew scum this game.

What do you mean by this?

mm was finding lane scum early in the game, his agreement and repeat of others could be just glad someone else was catching on.

And I'm caught up.

Vote: FAQ2

~Fixed the quote tags to the best of my ability. If that's not right I do have the original post saved so the proper changes can be made if necessary.

[farside22]

mod please fix my last post. Thanks!

[farside22]

Farside, what did you think of my back off of RC?

Sorry mod, but I'll be V/LA from july 10th to july 16th

I think your wrong to do so.

[farside22]

*wingback/Persivul.

Farside/moi

Yes my reading comprehensions skills need some work.

@Farside what do you mean about my instincts sucking?

Calling lane scum.
I usually read and make notes while I'm catching up.

I'm bored and this game is going nowhere. Someone talk to me about s_s

Hypocritical. I hate when people say a case is weak but make no cases themselves or is more about meta and instinct and let's duck around and vote some player without explaining why.

I think, maybe, s_s whole point about MM was in regards to how he'said not a newbie and about his list of reads.
The list of reads by MM was terrible.

What do you think of quibix

[farside22]

Mm: why are you scum reading fire?

[farside22]

Mm: why are you scum reading fire?

You're making a misassumption. I'm only saying "you are scum" with no backup to the claim as an imitation of him to prove how his argumentary sucks. Everything else you need to know about what I think of him is in my previous posts anyway.

Was more looking to have a discussion on mm than to have someone make a case, but what mm did was helpful (thanks). I still have a strong gut town read on s_s I can't shake.

qubixes is null town for me because his thoughts are organic and well-reasoned (not simplistic), even though I often disagree with them.

RC, put your mind at ease.

If I'm scum, you die N1 anyway.

I kind of want to make the same comment to farside, hah.

Yah I like being killed n1.

Also, farside, you must act on your poker hand in your next post or you will get scum points from me. Same with Wingback. I'm putting you two on notice.

Dances on line
Throws confetti on line.

Not sure if you paid attention or don't care but fire was asking about throwing the poker hands to those that are town reads, which I like the idea and your not a town read.
Also wing has made exactly one post thus far get over it.

@insanity: quibix post are stuck on just MM that's pretty easy to fake genuine thoughts on regardless of alignment, just my 2 cents.

[farside22]

On yeah and mm the vote on fire seemed more serious then sarcastic.

[farside22]

Lane made quite a good case on faq2 earlier, I'm not good at making cases cause a lot of my thinking is based on gut, so

Idk if we can convince qubixes to join the faq2 wagon since he seems to be tunneling on mm, but we can try

I don't expect you to speak for either of them, Infinity. I'll hear them out. I may be convinced to pivot yet. I'm definitely not a diehard MMscum proponent.

Do you think mm is scummier than faq2? What type of impression do you get of mm's personality that would explain his rather bold and not very careful actions as noob scum? (I'd like everyone who's on the mm wagon to answer that)

Yes, I do think he is scummier.

To reiterate (it's probably good I do this since my original rationale is buried in posts from a while back), he really, really overplayed the newbie card (see: 88), his suspicions of lane originally proved hypcritical (see: 106), and q's comment in 98 was very much on point. He explains why MM acted irrationally in his betting as town. Poker /= Mafia. It has nothing to do with being new to Mafia.

Not the best case against someone that I've ever seen, but it's good enough.

---

Because it's designed to do exactly what it just did. Get town reads.

Oh, please. Better yet, I'll translate that from American to English for you: Come off it. I don't want to hear this WIFOM stuff. I do not get this scum mastermind impression from Fire Assassin at all. He's a smart guy, but that's a bridge too far. "FA did something silly, got called out on it, acknowledged he got called out on it, just so he could later refer back to that as a scum trick!" That's just too much.

---

Not sure if you paid attention or don't care but fire was asking about throwing the poker hands to those that are town reads, which I like the idea and your not a town read.
Also wing has made exactly one post thus far get over it.

Yeah, and that's what we've just been talking about, dear.

So you're deliberately electing to prolong the hand and not make a move, hm?

I didn't say I was.
I stated I had reasons to with hold my action currently.

Fire is just - shall I say - the player I'm the most disposed to dispose of. I don't have a scumread strong enough to commit to yet.

BBT, Wingback, FAQ, RC and qubixes are the other ones I feel less town than the rest. But none of them ticks me as much as Fire right now.

How can you not have a strong scum read by now? I recall from my read through you've played mafia a few times.

[farside22]

And I'm caught up.

fold

I think s_so missed my question, I could be wrong, too tired to check right.
Someone reminder to check on it.
Interestingly enough RC has me rethinking my scum read on him

[farside22]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

I think it's a good idea to let someone I town read win a pot.
Not sure why you disagree.

[farside22]

Spoiler:

MM, if you end up with your current cash at end of phase, what will you do with it, and why?

This is rather blatant role fishing. There is no town reason to tell scum what you are going to do with the money gained - it jsut tells them who they need to eliminate and/or what potential a particular slot may have.

@the mm, why are you letting people think you're a noobie, when you're not

I don't have a definite plan in head, so I'm open to suggestions. The Tracker shot is tempting me as the most obviously townie ability of choice, then again I don't know who I'd track. The Tracker shot has the advantage of being refunded if the target does nothing.

And you should not be discussing those plans anyway.

So Lane, you had garbage, and went all in when there wasn't much to win, but significant number of people left to call. Why? Again, I could get that if you pleaded ignorance about poker, but you then acted as if you're pretty knowledgeable about poker.

MM's call with a straight is of course reasonable. If the chip dumping theory has merit, it has to be based on lane's action alone. Although as noted lane claims poker knowledge but made a bad play, he does goof off at times, and its not like this is for real money.

No. If this was a gambit then MM being the scum that lane was ceding the money to makes sense. His actions are just as important to analyzing the hand flips as lane's actions are. I still do not buy lane's excuse for making such a colossal poker error while, at the same time, accusing others of not understanding poker. It just does not add up.

VOTE: lane

If I was scum and had day talk... And I planned a scum money dump, how do you think that would actually go? What would be the actual plan?

First of all I wouldn't do the plan if we didn't have better than a pair. And I would've been aware of jokers so a pair doesn't mean much. You can figure this out by saying I have a bad, meh, good, very good, probably unbeatable hand.

2 options to start. Either the one with the good hand goes all in, and the shit hand calls. Or the bad hand goes all in and the good hand calls.

To me, it makes sense for the good hand to go all in first. Then if town calls and there's a chance they have a better hand, the bad hand can save its money. That obviously didn't happen.

So now if the bad hand goes all in, and even if a town calls, the good hand would still go all in, because it would've been decided its a very good hand that probably wouldn't get beat.

Considering there was only one call, the only option here is me and mm.

That's no way we would do that plan unless we were very confident we wouldn't be throwing money away. Cause that'd be dumber than town going all in on a bluff.

So faq2, why aren't you voting the mm?

Because you are scummy for more than your bad play. Not only did you push a bad play but you followed that by defending yourself with character attacks (saying that others obviously do not know how to play poker) and have been almost exclusively defending without any real interest in finding scum. You also seem to be willing to throw suspicion anywhere that might not be you. That is not very townie.

You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?

Why vote persivul?

You said something was a blatant rolefish, sounds like you think he's scum.

And I explained why I was not voting for him. Why did you not bother to comment on that and even cut that out of your quote?

I feel like people this game are looking too much at people's actions and taking those at face value rather than trying to analyze the motivation behind them. If lane/mm were scum trying to get money for scum, they wouldn't do it so blatantly. Based on play alone, I think lane and mm (and persivul as well btw) look quite town.

FAQ2, I feel like you're just looking for things to comment on as opposed to actually trying to scumhunt. Some reads with reasons for each, please.

And I feel like you are trying to misrepresent me.

Lane is my strongest scum read and I have explained why. Persivul is next because of his reaction to me calling him out on role fishing. Rather than engage me on it he sidestepped it and went OMGUS with a bullshit reason. You want me to explain why he might be wrong yet he has not explained anything as to why my meta may be a tell. There is noting to really say as to why he is wrong on that bullshit OMGUS vote, it is based on activity which is almost never an accurate alignment tell for anyone. There are very few players that change activity with alignment.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

It is not necessity a scum tell in this case (as there are already some knowns about the abilities themselves). I do not like the response though.

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge. The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

It is not necessity a scum tell in this case (as there are already some knowns about the abilities themselves). I do not like the response though.

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge. The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

What I don't like about the Persivul case, is he says the role fishing is blatant, and also not a tell. Yet here he talks about Persivul trying to cover his role fishing. It was obvious. True, but what's to cover? I feel like he's just trying to pad the case with whatever he can.

Literally no one cared about the role fishing because what was said was true, scum know who the most powerful person is, there's nothing to hide. And yet hes after Persivul about it. When nobody in the game cares? I don't see anything wrong with Persivul's reaction.

So because no one seems to agree with my case that makes it scummy? That is a pathetically weak argument.

Pers is scum - I do not see his actions coming from a town mindset. I was not 'padding' the case either - it is a good case in my opinion and if you don't like it oh well.

Also, FA_Q2's non-response to me replacing in and voting him is telling. If he was honestly scumreading my predecessor, he'd have been even more convinced that I was scum for laying down a vote on him with zero reasoning apparently disappearing from the thread.

I already pushed your slot and gave the reasoning. Responding to nothing is pointless - you give no reason and then expect me to somehow respond to it. That is idiotic.

I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

MM is null - I don't really see the scum case against him. Lane is a scum read - I have already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed.

Okay just to get some things moving I highlighted the quotes above on why FAQ2 is a scum read.
In short calling lane scum or his move in playing poker and continues to hold that as an excuse to scum read the slot.
Calling Persivul scum for rolefishing and for voting FAQ and hasn't moved passed that.
Talks about not interacting from Persivul to engage with him, which he hasn't done either so yeah not buying what he is selling for reason's to scum read someone.
Blantently ignores others in the game who scum read him or responding to others who have made points on him. IE: Why is persivul scum for not engaging but others aren't???? Yea that makes no sense to me.

Also if my damn internet stops slowing down I will eventually check into MM something struck me recently about him and I want to see what he is like typically as a player.

[farside22]

Farside better not be delaying hands tomorrow. Not afraid to vote someone over that either

I think it's a good idea to let someone I town read win a pot.
Not sure why you disagree.

If we're doing the chip dumping plan, then I agree. But if we're not, like today, quit delaying play.

Hmmmm I think tomorrow if I'm alive I would like to explore that.


Also I did my research on TheMM and the one game he played on MS was much more thoughtful then the one he is playing here. Plus he had scum reads for reason's in that game.
Adding him onto my scum list.

[farside22]

Also I did my research on TheMM and the one game he played on MS was much more thoughtful then the one he is playing here. Plus he had scum reads for reason's in that game.
Adding him onto my scum list.

This is a weak as hell meta reason, especially because mm came under a ton of pressure right from the beginning of the game.

Intent to hammer either one of those

Dafuq is this, decide one or the other. Then that person should claim.

Also, I would very much like you not to actually hammer until I get some questions answered. Thanks.

PEdit: @Fire, what exactly about faq2 makes you think he's flipping town? Is it that his wagon has scum on it, or what?

No, what is weak is having no funding scum reads at this point in the game.

[farside22]

I don't have very many scum reads either, that doesn't make mm scum. He seems to be actively trying to scum hunt at least, despite the pressure on him.

Also fire I know you're on dude please answer my question

There is a huge difference between you two.
He literally has no reads in regards to anyone in any strong way at all.
Are you saying the same applies to you?

Why can't low hanging fruit be scum? Apparently you're reading him as null based on his play, so...

They can be, but I am not reading him as anything, it just reads as an easy lynch and he is null which lends me to believe he is more likely a mislynch than anything.

I could be wrong, but thats just my read of it looking in, not particularly care for the people who jump on it, but I don't think any of them are ore scummy for it.

Which players jumped on FAQ2?

[farside22]

Fire: you've only voted for FAQ and MM this game and I remember MM isn't voting for FAQ, so I'm going to ask again whom jumped on FAQ?

[farside22]

Ill preface this with the fact that I am extreemy drunk but I am going to post anyway so whatever...

You think lane is scum because of the bluff, yet it makes no sense to bluff without your partner calling. If lane is scum with someone other than mm, then the bluff still wasn't scum-motivated and a silly mistake just as if he was town.

Do you have any

other

reasons why lane is scum, or are you just going to continue to pretend to scumhunt using the same BS logic from page 10?

I gave other reasons. You are misrepping. This is bullshit.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I seem to be pretty universally townread. If that's not the case then whoever doesn't believe it can hammer before me. But I fully intend to be on the lynch wagon today

^ scum right here.
VOTE: lane

Lane is clearly trying to justify simply hammering whoever gets to L-1. This tells me that he does not care who is lynched.

I notice that image asked FAQ what other reasons he had for scum reading lane, which FAQ doesn't respond to and then finds a weak reason to stick with lane as scum

For those not voting FAQ I'm officially going to ask for good reasons why they aren't.

[farside22]

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

Do you disagree with my points against FAQ?
If so what?
Why do you think either will flip town now and why throw shade only on me for this?

[farside22]

From the recent posts I don't feel that FA_Q2 is scum, so, for farside, you have my best reason not to vote him. My vote is fine on Fire Assassin because the more I attempt to look for towncred in his posts, the less I find. Besides, arguing on my lynch with Infinity (who I have a soft townread on) seems really far-fetched: shouldn't he try to argue with me instead? No, instead he tries to just push people to wagon for me rather than asking for some defense.
I have this soft scumread on lane like a pinch on my side because my soft townread on him melted like dog poop after I saw his eagerness to hammer. That's a really easy excuse for scum to hide and be like: "I CALLED IT I'M TOWN!". Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.
Also, I think farside is in too good a position right now. I get a feel that she's just going around questioning everybody and being low on responsiveness compared to all the questioning.

Here, you have them, my three top scumreads. Wingback and BBT might be there due to inactivity making it borderline impossible to find out if they were scum.

I'm not too confident is qubixes, FA_Q2 and RedCoyote, but I feel that they're just a bit too serious and that makes me not like their vibes, so they are actually soft townreads.
Infinity feels a bit too nice to me, white-knighting and whatnot, but he's still my top townread because I doubt he's scum hiding behind that to make a friend of me: that wouldn't be an effective move to make for scum.

@farside:
I don't disagree with your points against FAQ, I just have a gut feeling that he might flip town, and I don't feel as confident on him as I have on wagons in the past.
I'm throwing shade on nobody for pushing him. I believe there is almost definitely one scum in the players currently receiving no pressure, I scumread your predecessor, and I haven't been super impressed by your posts thus far.

Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.

I was in a game where town!lane quickhammered town with no warning or indication that he would do so, nowhere near deadline, and the game mechanic made it that because he cut the day short scum won after the following night. (Fortunately I was scum ) And we've already seen that he's impulsive. So in this case, yes, town might do that.

I'm not always a chatty person because when I get in the mix I usually become a raging batch.
So I ponder what people say to me rather then react and ask is it worth the back and forth.
That said I don't see anything you'very stated that really gives great reasons to scum read a player.
Lane wanting to hammer is null I've seen players say that as both alignments.
You say you don't like my comments but that's pretty vague. I'm making a case on someone who I see as scum and I want him lynched. If he'said town sure I look the fool but I've played with the guy before and he'said not this bad at scum hunting and the misrepresentation in regards to infinty is awful.
You think fire is scum and FAQ is town then why is he not vote for FAQ who would be in your own words "an easy mislynch"?

[farside22]

Sorry for some words together. I got this new phone that is making some strange word combos

[farside22]

@farside if that question was for me, I never said I thought Fire was scum. In fact recently I have been leaning slightly scum on him, but regardless he's too self-aware of a player to be sorted simply by whether or not he's voting a given player.

@MM I know you don't like to be pushed around, but at this point it's basically you or him. (And I'm not trying to scare you or threaten you, it's just the truth.) If we pushed another wagon now, it would cast significant suspicion on both you and FA and probably lead to both of you getting lynched anyway and on top of that it would probably flip town. No lynching is mathematically (going from odds to evens is bad) and mechanically (fewer associations and more easy mislynches still around) inferior even to mislynching.

So your voting someone that is slightly scummy over a scum read?
Please enlighten me as to why that is.

[farside22]

@farside:
I don't disagree with your points against FAQ, I just have a gut feeling that he might flip town, and I don't feel as confident on him as I have on wagons in the past.
I'm throwing shade on nobody for pushing him. I believe there is almost definitely one scum in the players currently receiving no pressure, I scumread your predecessor, and I haven't been super impressed by your posts thus far.

Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.

I was in a game where town!lane quickhammered town with no warning or indication that he would do so, nowhere near deadline, and the game mechanic made it that because he cut the day short scum won after the following night. (Fortunately I was scum ) And we've already seen that he's impulsive. So in this case, yes, town might do that.

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

VOTE: FA_Q2

Sorry I just realized I had a quote from MM that I thought S_S posted.
Ignore me

[farside22]

This wagon on fire looks like crap in my view and went to fast.
Especially seeing the player in the hot seat still avoid the case against him and hope on the wagon.
Just my 2 cents

[farside22]

Hope=hop.
Growls at phone.

[farside22]

I have no clue how MM thinks FAQ has done more scum hunting the end fire.
FAQ's whole issues was from about page 5 or 10 and one recent post by lane about hammering.
And anyone worth there salt playing this site that 90% of the mods extend deadlines when a replacement is request.
Also mod MIA for days and a holiday that passed.
Let's not forget the timing of said vote.
Yeah, not buying what is being sold by MM.

[farside22]

Every post MM makes reads like he'said talking out of his ass

[farside22]

Every post MM makes reads like he'said talking out of his ass

You know we're both town here, darling

Code: Select all

A townbloc of me, farside, Infinity and lane ... <3 <3 <3...

zzz...


zzz...

Huh? Oh, sorry, I was dreaming for a second.

I'd be terrified as scum with that type of town block.

[farside22]

Yeah it's a mod with a vote count.
Wing and RC should finish the hand before someone hammers.

[farside22]

What do people think about my points against MM/FA? I thought they were pretty noteworthy but people seem to just be ignoring them.

I've called them both scum but someone said they were mislynches.

[farside22]

O...k

That'll probably be fine, to be honest

I just never like hammers without a claim

Will it be fine after my town flip?

Will you flip town?
I'm doubting it since if you had some ability to claim you would have done it with this post

[farside22]

Fold

I need to think about a few things before I vote.

[farside22]

Fold

I need to think about a few things before I vote.

This is a very self conscious post.

You didn't want to vote anyone....yeah okay, but why do you feel the need to say that..?

I tend to overthink things and I had a theory i was looking into when I had time.
My first reaction was to just vote MM.
But then I thought about how something smart was blaming people for pushing votes while he sits on his vote for FAQ2.
My brain finds it hard to see them scum together and I start going, farside are you looking at everyone or ignoring people.
Then there is you who's said nothing except willing to hammer.

Right now I'm just going on fumes and waiting for tomorrow before I do anything.

[farside22]

We should all be following the plan of betting and giving the hands to our townread.
Right now I am curious on that kill?

BBT wasn't really trying in the game if my memory serves right.

Seriously??!!
If you give a lot of money to a single player and IF they are town, scum know who they should NK.
If your townread is scum then lol.

There is a bullet proof ability to be had.
Sooooo????

[farside22]

@shadow: with your theory i didn't have to post anything at all.
I'm not sure if you read the game at all or if you are the type just to not read what you missed as a replacement, but I really that FAQ2 was scum so me thinking about my reads is natural after being wrong.

That said, @ lane are you aware enough about the bet yesterday, how much MM got in winnings?

Vote: something smart

[farside22]

Over 1000. 1160 I think. Won 1170 and folded 2 Antes. Why?

See things you can buy on front page.

I thinknow wingback needs to catch up.
I'd be fine with RC winning or lane

[farside22]

I've seen them all. I looked again. It'd be helpful if you just said what you were trying to say.

Sure.
Vengeful

I'd do it in MM's spot.

[farside22]

He can't afford it... So what about it?

And why would you do it in mm's spot?

That's why I asked about money.

He"s scummy

[farside22]

Vengeful doesn't work for night kills though, right?

Vengeful is a day ability.

The player who has the ability gets to chose a player to kill that was part of their lynch.

[farside22]

Or mm is scum and lying out of his ass

[farside22]

Just a note.

The winning pot yesterday between lane and mm was 1170

Each player received about 48 from the lynch so the amount from MM here:

ould afford it. It cost 1000$, I had 1160 or something. So yes, I bought

Reads off.

I still need to verify if he raised at any other point in the game, if not then why is he lying?

[farside22]

Good catch. But only the people on the lynch got money. I got 80

Oh I thought everyone alive got $$

[farside22]

What is going on? Why is everyone so quiet?

There is 3 players who haven't said anything since game start.

Also I'm waiting for something smart to explain his vote.

[farside22]

oooooo I stepped on some toes.

[farside22]

And just for shits and giggles lets see the post from RC that totally does not read as a weak town read about me.

Every post MM makes reads like he'said talking out of his ass

You know we're both town here, darling

[farside22]

I guess you just skimmed over the part where I said I had to essentially rethink my entire game and throw D1 out the window. Two of my biggest scumreads just flipped town.

I didn't skim.
I just note you didn't have issues with MOI replacing out day 1, didn't say anything about the fact Something Smart sat on FAQ2 while blaming others for a "possible mislynch" and you just go welp I was wrong so let me vote a player for crappy reasons.

I missed zip.

All I know for sure you brought my cynical personality into this game by your crappy reasons.
Thanks for that.

[farside22]

I'm referring to this post, pre-flip.

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

[farside22]

On a side note I missed side steps post about using a NK to justify a vote.
I'm also thinking of voting MM but I'm holding off today to chase others who intrigued me

[farside22]

I didn't miss it that was MM throwing shade.
Nevermind

[farside22]

I'm referring to this post, pre-flip.

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I

want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

Again, who was I blaming for a possible mislynch?

[farside22]

Something smart: you want to explain why you kept your vote on someone you thought might flip town.

[farside22]

Bet $40

I have no idea why everyone is folding when we can organize this much better.
Just frustrating me and I am probably going to stop talking about this mechanic and just focusing on scumhunting.

I have town reads on Lane and Wingback,
I feel pretty confident on those, I am thinking that MM is scum, but unsure of allies still.
Something Smart possibly not sure on who with?

Farside I am null on but I could possibly see it.

TOo many preflip asosciations.

I say we flip MM today and if we are wrong we can reaccess.

ANyone elses thoughts? (Not on the poker mechanics that we obviously can't do)

Sorry about that.
I have wing and lane as strong town reads too. Next hand I would give to either of them.
Fire I would put as town.

Not sure why I'm null but whatever.
Side-Step is null.

I had a crazy theory about MM, Something smart and Infinity as scum team. But that seems too easy and I don't think Infinity is that dumb.
MM for sure, waiting on Smart to explain himself better and infinity, well he made one case and seems pretty quiet overall today, which is disturbing me.
RC went to null mostly for being a lazy ass.

[farside22]

Who originally had the idea to combine monies?

Fire

[farside22]

What makes you think there are three scum?

How many 13 player games have 3 scum members?
Oh right 99% of them
Are you playing dumb here RC?

[farside22]

Wait is this 12 or 13 player?
Either way that's typically 3 man scum team.

[farside22]

Umm... It's 11

Ah.

I don't know standards for 11 players.

[farside22]

Also I love when players dodge questions like something smart does.

[farside22]

Umm... It's 11

Ah.

I don't know standards for 11 players.

I'm still sticking with 3 scum reads.
You have none so duck off.

[farside22]

Are you fucking with me? Or... How is that hard to fake? Sarcasm is used my scum to discredit town often.

Farside. I'm going to need you to come in here and explain your mm, ss, infinity theory

I'm phone posting so no links or quotes will be used during this.

The reason I thought this was the way infinty keeps calling the 2 of them town above others.
Also on day 2 ss said with faq2 lynch mm is town.
Based on theory?
That's just crap.
Infinty pushes mm scummy comments as nothing and calls players scummy for making points against him.
Again I can't see Infinity being this bad as scum to defend scum buddies that blantenly but I can't see town Infinity ignoring someone blantenly scummy either.

Anyways that's were I stand currently.

[farside22]

Also I love when players dodge questions like something smart does.

You want me to answer the question?
The answer is that I don't have a magical voice inside my head telling me everyone's alignment. So of course I'm going to recognize that my scumread might be wrong.

What did you expect to learn from asking that question?

You apologies for the read.
Called it a mislynch and kept your vote on a player, all while throwing shade at others for making cases.
That's town to you?

Umm... It's 11

Ah.

I don't know standards for 11 players.

I'm still sticking with 3 scum reads.
You have none so duck off.

I have one.

I'm blacklisting after this game.

[farside22]

I can't see town Infinity ignoring someone blantenly scummy either.

The fuck...?

How about you explain to me why mm is scum.

Infinity, why do you say the most active/Towniest players have wrong reads? How do you know this? How can you know we don't have right reads?

I don't

know

anything, I'm just saying the kill on BBT makes that a possibility.

So far you called things he said that is scummy as town, so that's a waste.

At least to do for you.
I'll work on it when I get home tonight.

In regards to ss comment.
Saying you feel bad for voting a mislynch is saying you believe the person isn't scum.
It doesn't say you still think the player is scummy.

[farside22]

The rest of smarts comments will have to wait too.
Too little time at lunch to quote things currently.

[farside22]

I'm folding because I have no interest in tossing the little that remains of my money to the first lucjy guy, that's pretty much that. Antes will probably eat at the rest of my wallet like popcorn but it barely matters at this point.

Lynching me is exactly what scum want you to do; it's the reason they left me alive in the first place since I wasn't BP. Now consider why I was left alive.

Possibly seeing me and farside as scum is kinda dumb imo, considering I've said I'm kinda scared of scum!farside, maybe you were too busy drowning in your own made-up scumtells on me to notice.

Lynching me is wasting the Tracker shot. This is complete and utter town sabotage, since the Tracker shot isn't given to anyone. This entire plan is dumbnut.

No, no, no, no.

You can't explain why scum left you alive, you can let others speculate, but you can't say "I am a mislynch bait" that makes it all null. Self awareness of the situation can be more scummy than town, if you understand you are likely lynch target that isn't more scummy I don't think, but its definitely not points in your favor.

And we all wanted you to fold anyways, because you are a scum suspect, why would we want you to win?

Also, why are you attacking you and farside as alignment but not any of my others, why does that sound more ridiculous beyond "I am scared of scum farside!" cause that doesn't sound like a actual reason for you two not being aligned?

Then you call my scumtells "fake", listen if I am faking it, I am scum, right?

WHy do i get sense of you keep going back and forth between wanting to call me town and wanting to call me just hard scum but don't want to commit.

He's attacking me because it's easy. Using the you're alive crap with crap reasoning is just something to latch onto rather then scum hunt, because newb scum can't fake scum hunting that well.

Now with that said onto a longer post with quotes that no one will most likely pay attention to.

[farside22]

Spoiler:

I thought his posts seemed forced, and I thought 61 in particular didn't add anything to the discussion. He agreed with something someone else said, stated the obvious, and pointed out that your raise was scummy when other people had already done the same thing. Seems like kinda trying to look busy.

Readslist:

BlueBloodedToffee
* 27: "How good are y'all at poker?" I forgot to answer to that. I'm sure I'm very swingy as a player, so I'd say 2~7 depending on the moment/mood.
Nothing very helpful, but nothing scummy:

NULL

MagnaOfIllusion
* 19 was no more than calling out a hard-to-use tactic. I condone this, but that doesn't tell anything alignment-related.
Makes sense all around. I'm inclined to trust him but I'm not making that mistake again:

NULL (+Town)

Persivul
* 35: I don't mean to be a whiner, but winning at poker doesn't mean one's scum. As far as I'm going, I'm likely to win, except if lane mindgemmed me and actually has a sure-win hand, something like a straight flush.
Makes sense, but I have a feel that tells me more "no-nonsense and cutthroat" for some reason:

NULL

Kappy
We waitin for YOU, [REDACTED]!! :

NULL

lane0168
* 21's the big bluff that we've been talking about. I'm undecided between thinking this was a scummy move to pass money to scum, or really just a mindless bluff, but I'd think lane's better than that.
I don't know if he's playing me, but I'm convinced he plays dumb -- though is it that he's playing dumb to fool me or his plays are just dumb, I don't know. The vote switch on me just to please infinity doe.

NULL (+ slight scum)

FA_Q2
Kinda aggro on lane's move. Frankly I think it's a good player to keep but really:

NULL

Something_Smart
Very un-striking to me. Nothing stands out, except the propensity to come up with complicated stuff, or lies (42 wasn't a big leap to take).

NULL

qubixes
Only posted once "lynch BBT boohoo u lynch'd me". I can make nothing of this:

NULL

Infinity 324:
* 24 is, I think, a wannabe readslist or ranking or etc, but ranking quibixes at top dawg town is full of bull seeing as his only post so far was "vote BBT you got me lynched last time :,(". Magna has been making sense, that's for sure, but I don't see how town this is. S_S has only been asking for a move that would be in the best interest of town, but I only see his idea as a candid dream. The only thing lane had done was his epic bluff. I don't see persivul as "possible scum" tho, seeing as the only thing he did was fold and detecting the bluff from lane. Also, yourself at the bottom of the readslist? Was that copypasta'd, is that a mindgem to tell us not to think you're scum?
* 63: I'm not at fault for being unoriginal when I express my approval of others' points. 61 was just that. It's not my fault if I get predated. Also, someone visibly doesn't know me.
Kinda-groundless readslist on third post. Thinking I'm scum just because of my posting style, and not drawing the money plays to his mind since I've put on paper I was likely to take those $500 from lane. Bleeeeh. For all I hate his behaviour tho, he's barely even scummy.

RedCoyote
One post, though it has substance. I can pretty much agree on everything he said, but I'm meh about it.

NULL

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum, and he doesn't actually use it to take very many stances. (By the way, my page 1 reads list was random gut reads and to see how people would react.)

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)

Okay so first of all, "zero scum game" is probably the most hilarious thing I have seen on this site 11/10 MoI

A mislynch to verify this being completely false isn't the worst way to start out the game. However you'll change your mind on due time

This is anti-town.

This kind of assumes lane is town.

Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Not following this. It's a meh thought process, honestly to me it sounds more likely to come from scum than average. Why do you like it so much?

s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

This is fairly towny. 90 is using a lot of words to say nothing, I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative though. (Maybe slightly towny.)
Ugh. I was really hoping to roll scum this game because I am far better at deceiving people I don't know and far better at reading people I do know. (I rely a lot on meta.) And meta without personal experience is like 10 times less effective.

Hmm. I liked 91 and 92, but 93 is weak at best. Another player I'll have to meta.

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum

Interesting, that's exactly my thoughts on you.

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Eww.
98-99: qubixes is probably town. And I like lane's 100 too.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Is this why you were townreading me early?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

I would have called if:
1) I thought my hand was the strongest,
2) I thought lane was bluffing, or
3) I didn't mind all my money going to lane. I think MM called for a mixture of 1 & 2.
I think several parts of 107 are awfully reachy. I think under certain circumstances, trying to get townread is a null tell, and I think MM would be doing so as either alignment. The LAMIST argument is also pretty tenuous. MoI is one of the few players I've seen firsthand before (as town, and I was modding the game so I wasn't reading as carefully into his posts as if I had been playing, but it's better than nothing) and so far this is looking like this could be the town play I saw, or it could not be. Before anyone jumps on me for fencesitting, the point of this is that I can't draw a clear conclusion from his posts yet.

This is a reach

yes

that is completely unworthy of a vote.

not necessarily. It's page 5, votes don't need to have strong reasoning attached and sometimes they're just for reactions anyway. I also don't like the implication that you might do things that would be worthy of a vote?

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

More reaching... you don't necessarily know what the point of this question is. I certainly don't think it creates a false dichotomy.

It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town.

Actually MM would look a lot better if he had simply said he has a great hand and so he called. Claiming he was pre-empting scum's plan is bad. As has been already noted, if here were really thinking at that level, he would have waited for scum to call before going in himself.

QFT
I agree with the people who are saying that we need to see the results of the hand before we proceed in reading lane and MM. Kappy, we're looking at you.
118 sounds genuine. I don't think that reflects much on his alignment, except that there's a small chance he would continue to deny his mistake as scum.

Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.

S_S says that we should force the scummy players off of a wagon. The only way to "force" players off would be to vote them. Therefore, it's your contention that you could dismantle the entire wagon on one player and move it to another player? You don't think there would be any issues in doing that?

This is just me being dumb, I thought if someone stated intent to hammer on the person about to the lynched then somehow that would motivate the scummier players to get off the wagon and let townier players on. Though, some may agree if it meant their top scumread(s) got off the wagon as well.

Infinity, is there something I'm supposed to respond to in 101? You voting me in that post seems random.

At first I voted you because you were my most active null read and I wanted to see your response, but this comes off as quite forced, as scum often want specific reason they are being scumread so they can defend themselves. I like my vote where it is.

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

You can read below but this bring up two questions –

1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.

1. No particular reason, was just to get discussion going and I wanted another opinion on the post
2. See above, the only thing that read town to me about his posts was the comment on lane that I agreed with, but I definitely agree that his posts have gotten scummier since then.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Please elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.

It felt like a natural response, that's it

I like MoI's push on RC, it might be a little confirmation biased but I have a growing gut scumread on RC and MoI is doing a good job of putting a finger on why that is. RC seems too careful, and I didn't like how in his first post the analysis I liked seemed to imply lane-town but when MoI questions him on it RC says "lane could be town, but he could also be scum". It might be him backtracking when MoI called out his original defense of lane, and it also could be leaving open the possibility of pushing a lane lynch in the future.

@RC, do you have a read on lane now?

s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.

I liked your theory in 16. Theory discussion can be used as an excuse to avoid read discussion, but it didn't really feel like you were doing that given your scumhunt-y 45. You can call it a gut read, I guess.

The analysis in 120 also seems pretty hard to fake, so you're a pretty solid townread atm.

MM continues to look like newbtown.

I don't like this mm wagon, and I'm the one that started it Often, the difference between noobscum and noobtown is that noobscum in general is very careful to avoid doing anything scummy, and tries to avoid engagement. Since his first few posts, I felt like mm has been rather open about his actions and stances and has definitely not tried to avoid engagement.

The admissions of trying to look town, being rash with your bets don't make me feel better either.

This is exactly what I'm talking about; I think noobscum would be more careful than this, especially given he seems to have a careful personality.

At the moment I don't think lane and MM are team mates with their interaction outside the poker mini-game. And if they're not, I think lane is more likely than not town (if he has the bad hand he says he has), because I don't think scum would take that big of a risk with a bad hand, unless they have a partner with a very strong hand to back it up.

This kind of implies that they can't both be town, why?

So, anyone up for an RC wagon?

I just made the mistake of thinking the most expensive abilities were prized at 1000 (instead of 1250) and thus I'd only need to eat your monies to get the best abilities in the game. Does that answer your question?

Yes, but it feels like you're just trying to come up with reasons for why you didn't wait for my partner to call if that's what you were really thinking when you called me. You wanted to put a stop to it, and you thought 1000 would be enough for the most expensive abilities. Where did you come up with 1000 being the most expensive abilities? Did you never actually look at the abilities in the first place? Because if not, I'm having trouble figuring out why you'd think 1000 was for the most expensive ones. And if you had looked at them, I'm having trouble figuring out why you'd think 1000 was the most expensive ones?

Either you didn't look at them, and in that case you would have no idea or reason to believe abilities are different prices, so that's not the case.

Or you did look at them, and would then see the prices. And see they are different prices for different abilities. Which must be the case. So how do you come up with 1000 being the most expensive abilities?

Are you just making up excuses now?

This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.
I was sure to only need to take one guy's money because of my own habits when I create such game systems, which is basically me screwing myself over, but whatever. I sure hope Kappy folds, at least this entire thing will have harmed the least people possible and I still get 1k$ until some people decide it's a great idea to lynch me.

UNVOTE: lane, by the way, that's useless to keep it there.

Fold

Does anyone here know what Persivul's scumgame looks like?

15 games played and 3 games hosted. And a read through your first game, tells me you really shouldn't be hiding behind a noobie tag. But it's a pretty convenient way out that people suggest you're a newbie and you do nothing to explain even that you've played 14 games and hosted 3 elsewhere, regardless of the quality of those games

I feel like you're trying to make me snap at you. i've already explained that most of these games taught me nothing about serious play like in here. This is entirely different. I will be holding that newbie tag until I prove I'm competent. Is that even true yet? I doubt it.

You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?

Why not? Persivul looks kinda shady and wildcard-ish to me, but I understand the vote against lane.

As for FAQ telling me not to tell anything, I wonder if he's keeping me safe or trying to sow distrust. If I consider FAQ as help, that casts extra shade on Persivul...

ISOing Persivul gives me: Threats to get the winner lynched regardless of alignment, pursuing me instead of lane for the chip-dumping theory (I'm sure lane's lynch would prove a lot more than mine, but then again it's consistent with his attempt at grabbing money), asking for my plans (a bad experience from my first game here is starting to tell me that this benefits scum far too much more than town, actually). No town ping and some really shady pings.
VOTE: Persivul

Still think RC is trying to generate content as opposed to actually scumhunt.

RC, what do you think of my reasons for calling you scum? Why do you think MoI "forgetting" or "not paying attention" is scum motivated, given that scum would want to have more information as well? Do you have a read on s_s or faq2 atm?

I think consciously promoting a leading wagon and giving out strong, unequivocal reads is fairly aggressive, certainly moreso than simply reacting to votes or criticism on me. I wouldn't characterize it as scheming or calculating given the fact that I'm unabashedly putting myself out there, not doing what I think will get me to survive longer, but doing what I think will help the town more.

Well the careful part has a lot to do with how you word your posts. Pushing the biggest wagon part is pretty NAI, though I agree you have given strong reads.

I don't see how you can contort my position on MoI as "confirmation bias" or "gut" when, first, I'm not voting him nor planning to do so at this time, second, I have not advocated or stumped for scumMoI, only pointed out what I found interesting and anti-town, and third, explained with some detail as to why I disliked some of MoI's arguments (in other words, if I am giving you rationale, doesn't that necessarily mean I'm

not

relying on "gut"?).

What? I was talking about MoI's stretchy logic being explained by confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read as opposed to MoI being scum.

PEdit: I think your assassin instincts are misguiding you.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge.

The meta is actually what I was talking about, I was wondering why you called him scum just for using a tell you don't agree with.

The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

This is all pretty NAI. Why can't town have just forgot about you until you started posting? Why don't you consider the fact that persivul might've thought the "rolefishing" question useful for scumhunting purposes? Why can't his refusal to respond just be arrogance?

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

Doing this only after questioned on it feels forced.

Don't see why scum would push on persivul right now, that's the only reason my vote's staying where it is.

Infinity's looking fairly towny with his 219 and 220.

Argument over MM's experience is longer than it needs to be.

232: @MM what about the things you mentioned that Persivul did was scum indicative?

The confidence in 242 in my experience is more likely to come from scum.

276: yes, you should do that.

- I did like Infinity's 219 too, but that's mostly due to bias.
- Yes, it prolongs side-talk and avoids scumhunts; so asking any more is scummy.
- Nothing he said, it's gut feeling from the general vibe I get from his posts. Feels like scum should be: somewhat legit-looking but not really reassuring or nice, etc...
- But if he's scum, that means the entire gambit idea is moot.
- I think Fire Assassin is sorta offensive. Gameplay-wise, he definitely is.

I am [a noobie]. This is my second game with people who actually know how to play. What makes you say I'm not?

Choose? Why draw the newbie card, when you consider yourself at least not bad?
VOTE: The MM

Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.

Wow, that's bad.

Ain't ya got nuthin' better to say?

Any chance of a real wagon developing?

You're just waiting for a wagon to hop on?

Persivul is next because of his reaction to me calling him out on role fishing. Rather than engage me on it he sidestepped it and went OMGUS with a bullshit reason.

The role fishing charge is terrible in this setup. The people with enough money to buy roles is public knowledge, and scum will be motivated to kill those people.

That's true, but right now I have a bunch of cards in my hands (not as far as poker goes, I folded), because I can Commute or Rolestop myself to avoid getting killed, or bank on the fact that scum expects me to to track peepz instead (or do anything else). Really, the scum just gave a focal point to the mindgames played on them now, and that focus is me.

Now I need to think about what to do if I survive the day, so I'll stop talking there.

MoI's case on RC is so bad that I think RC could be town. It's mainly based on "you said this thing that doesn't make sense" or "you said this thing I don't agree with", which don't mean at all that RC is scum. Usually it's easy to avoid being called scum for bad arguments as scum, but not if you don't expect those arguments...

That is, I think MoI's case on RC is bad, and I think RC maybe could have avoided doing the things MoI is calling him scum for if he was scum.

I'll have to think about this more.

Ok I looked at RC's recent posts again, and some of them were really towny. The frustration about s_s not seeing the explanation for the persivul reads looks very town to me, and so does his frustration over MoI tunneling him. RC could definitely still be scum, but I'm starting to get the feeling that the way he's playing is more playstyle than anything.

I wanna see what s_s has to say because I really liked his thoughts so far and this game is starting to confuse me cause I have way too many townreads.

Still think faq2 is scum though.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: faq2

Because I am a newbie. But you're confusing "newbie" with "bad. I'm bad only relatively to you, maybe, because I'm not good at reading people.

@MM: I can't really follow the logic. [Mafia scum Pro's ---- you ------ Mafia scum newbies ------ everyone else] Like that from good to bad?

You know, the scale of being good and bad isn't exactly one-dimensional. There's about as many scales as there are aspects to Mafia, which is a lot. But if you want to make a flat scale, bother to adjust the levels. It'd more look like this:
[MafiaScum Pros ------------------------- MM - Mafia Scum Newbie ----(give or take a few)---- Non Mafia players]

I like MoI's defense of mm, but lane has no reason to go all in as scum if mm is town, which basically debunks a large part of the case on him. (I didn't think it was scummy in the first played, I tried to bluff too cause I wasn't used to this many players in a poker game). Lane and mm are both town guys. Seriously.

I agree with the basic idea. Lane looks pretty townish to me now.

I don't like how MoI is using a meta argument to try to prove he's town and not having paranoia that he might be wrong on rc again, but ehh his other posts have been so town

It only takes one slip, you know. But so far I've somewhat liked MoI's vibes -- barring that. Once again, pure gut...

---

I need to reread a bunch of things, three pages of posts since my last visit... Another post incoming.

Town, awkward and possibly scum (but probably not a good D1 lynch), and town
I definitely disagree that scum can't make terrible cases that look like confbias. I've been on both ends of forceful cases by scum on town that were weak at best. I think his defense of MM is contrived and could possibly be partner defending (one reason why I want an MoI flip today), and I agree that his thoughts on RC don't seem real.

Yeah, I'm leaning scum on him, but reading him is hard because of the massive theory arguments that really didn't need to be there. I'll look at him more tomorrow, but I don't know how much more I'll be able to find. I'd rather try to sort him going forward, I've found my reads almost invariably improve as a game goes on (which is no surprise).
Pedit: I think mod deleted it.

Those are all good points on faq2

It feels like both moi and fa_q2 would do anything not to vote the mm. And I don't like that

And I also don't get this logic.

@MoI and faq2, why is lane scummy for going all in if his partner isn't mm? No one other than mm called him.

Scum is in {faq2, bbt, fire} with an off chance of rc, persivul, or qubixes

Jeesh, the animosity. I'm starting to lose track of where the debate ends and where it begins...

Fire is stirring too much things up. That's not a playstyle, that's nearly comms sabotage.
I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answered

to him

, and

yet

(seeing as lane ninja'd me).
I don't consider this competence.

Ccl: I don't like Fire Assassin. I won't say it's alignment-indicative, but it's in no way town.

Guys, try to keep calm, it's a game. It's hard enough without people insulting each other.

The replace out itself I think is town though.

Replacing out is a NAI, but everything up to it was very more townlike i would have to say. He could have easily just not wanted to deal with me given our conflicting natures. I have gotten angry before and wanted to replace out as scum before so I should know. I actually kind of think he might be just angry in general and this burst the bubble, but that is personal speculation that has no business in a mafia game.

That, and I also think this particular replace out was town because it was driven by frustration in what he thought was restriction in his scumhunting. We'll see.

VOTE: The MM
This is the right lynch for the day folks. I can make a case if requested but most of their posts are very scummy in some way and have either bad reasoning or skewered priorities and they leak their knowledge that they have more information than the rest of us.

MM is obvnewbtown.

I think fire assassin is town

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

Actually I'd like to do this.
VOTE: MM
@Infinity: MM may be new to the site, but he's not naive. This was the essence of the experience debate: he's new to the way things work on this site but not to the way they work in general.

Fold

BBT's probably town, I've seen him be abrasive and defensive as town and I think he'd be doing more as scum. I think RC's objections are mostly explainable by BBT's not liking being town as much.
RC's assertion that he and I were the only true supporters of the MM wagon is not really accurate (though I still think he's town); I never expressed any read on MM for the majority of the original wagon's life, whereas other people (like lane) definitely did help that wagon along more than I did.
I'm liking Infinity for town but I really don't see where that MM read comes from and it seems a bit like a WK... you're saying scumtells for newbs are different, but you have to remember that MM is not new to the game, and probably shouldn't be treated as such in terms of his interactions.

The fact that you keep repeating that you think he's town without much evidence as a wagon develops on him... those are the characteristics of a WK independent of my reads on you and him. Given those reads I find it unlikely but if MM flips town it's something to consider.

But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.
By the way, crappy hand: Fold.

First off, you are scum.
Second of the mini game helps us with the main game, its not just simple tacked on gimmick to keep us busy during the main game. We can use it to get closer to our win condition in the main game. By using the mechanics to our advantage, do you not get that?
We can't do what i am suggesting today, but I think we throw some games to Farside/Persivul tomorrow to get them some items/roles to use like BP and Tracker.
And yes, there is rarely a "universal" town read, but there is usually one enough people can agree on that is appropriate like 80% of us agree one player is town, its probably likely they are in fact town.

First off, you're scum. Now we're even. If you don't feel how stupid this sounds, you are bad and you should feel bad.
Second, yes, but I certainly wouldn't entrust my money to someone else, doubly not if it's you, BBT or RC, who have been in my eyes the most globally hostile players.
Third, I can already get Tracker anyway, so why should I bother giving it to anyone else?
Fourth, yes, sure, but we could post readslists and see if there's not one guy that gets the most townreads. Then again, I wouldn't consider that a good idea.

I'm bored and this game is going nowhere. Someone talk to me about s_s

Sure, I'll ISO s_s.
His 4 first posts are kinda filler, just like any early-game post, so it gives us little.
I never agreed with the first part of Post 45.
He didn't post between 52 and 120. Though 120 has him doubt some sheeping on him (from you no less), which is more likely to come from town.
His posts are relatively unnoticeable from there on until 188 which tossed questions to just about everyone, which I find town-ish. Aside from the doubtcasting on me and asking questions I think I had already answered.
Cue V/LA and he doesn't have a real post till Post 280. I don't like how he just says "Infinity looks towny" outta nowhere but I can't really contradict that so...
I like how s_s reacts in Post 306.
Then it's mostly quoting and quoting until his Magna vote in 377. I think it goes with how he never looked like he trusted him, so that's cool.
Post 390 soft-reads me as scum. Reaches its logical conclusion in Post 469.
Post 542 is a readslist. I understand the idea on BBT and RC, and I'm definitely in the same opinion as him, but he don't like me, which I also understand.
Post 571 I agree that 558 is ugly.

Conclusion:

Something_Smart is a null-town read to me. (To all of you who say "yay finally MM writes town or scum in a read yay", screw you.)

---

Also, I agree that we lack qubixes input.
And my two last lines:
-

Mod, I think I've already folded. If I didn't, fold.

- VOTE: Fire Assassin

Mm: why are you scum reading fire?

You're making a misassumption. I'm only saying "you are scum" with no backup to the claim as an imitation of him to prove how his argumentary sucks. Everything else you need to know about what I think of him is in my previous posts anyway.

VOTE: FA_Q2

I think we need a votecount right about now.

Also, these conversations are getting me lost so much, I end up posting once every 3 pages, mostly because I'm not as decicated to this game as my previous ones, and by comparison noone makes me want to try.

Also, lane, why should town even entrust the hammer to you? I don't think calling dibs on the hammer is a town move in the first place. Only allows scum to hide.

Also I did my research on TheMM and the one game he played on MS was much more thoughtful then the one he is playing here. Plus he had scum reads for reason's in that game.
Adding him onto my scum list.

This is a weak as hell meta reason, especially because mm came under a ton of pressure right from the beginning of the game.

Intent to hammer either one of those

Dafuq is this, decide one or the other. Then that person should claim.

Also, I would very much like you not to actually hammer until I get some questions answered. Thanks.

PEdit: @Fire, what exactly about faq2 makes you think he's flipping town? Is it that his wagon has scum on it, or what?

I don't have very many scum reads either, that doesn't make mm scum. He seems to be actively trying to scum hunt at least, despite the pressure on him.

Also fire I know you're on dude please answer my question

From the recent posts I don't feel that FA_Q2 is scum, so, for farside, you have my best reason not to vote him. My vote is fine on Fire Assassin because the more I attempt to look for towncred in his posts, the less I find. Besides, arguing on my lynch with Infinity (who I have a soft townread on) seems really far-fetched: shouldn't he try to argue with me instead? No, instead he tries to just push people to wagon for me rather than asking for some defense.
I have this soft scumread on lane like a pinch on my side because my soft townread on him melted like dog poop after I saw his eagerness to hammer. That's a really easy excuse for scum to hide and be like: "I CALLED IT I'M TOWN!". Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.
Also, I think farside is in too good a position right now. I get a feel that she's just going around questioning everybody and being low on responsiveness compared to all the questioning.

Here, you have them, my three top scumreads. Wingback and BBT might be there due to inactivity making it borderline impossible to find out if they were scum.

I'm not too confident is qubixes, FA_Q2 and RedCoyote, but I feel that they're just a bit too serious and that makes me not like their vibes, so they are actually soft townreads.
Infinity feels a bit too nice to me, white-knighting and whatnot, but he's still my top townread because I doubt he's scum hiding behind that to make a friend of me: that wouldn't be an effective move to make for scum.

@farside:
I don't disagree with your points against FAQ, I just have a gut feeling that he might flip town, and I don't feel as confident on him as I have on wagons in the past.
I'm throwing shade on nobody for pushing him. I believe there is almost definitely one scum in the players currently receiving no pressure, I scumread your predecessor, and I haven't been super impressed by your posts thus far.

Town just don't hammer like that, without at least calling out to the lynch target, even if we're close to deadline.

I was in a game where town!lane quickhammered town with no warning or indication that he would do so, nowhere near deadline, and the game mechanic made it that because he cut the day short scum won after the following night. (Fortunately I was scum ) And we've already seen that he's impulsive. So in this case, yes, town might do that.

We can't risk fire being a PR

I really doubt there's 3 scum.
I'm much more comfortable lynching FA than Fire. 730 is hella survivalistic.

We need a backup mod to show up, and we need to be on the ready:

(expired on 2016-07-05 18:30:00) left!

Also, wagon speed is NAI, as is survivalism IMO.

I think Fire is a better lynch than FA_Q2, because Fire Assassin is a rigue while FA_Q2 at least looks like he tries to be useful. Which means scum!FA_Q2 is much easier to catch than scum!Fire.

Do you have a scumread on him? Because I don't.

But if he was scum, there'd be more opportunities to catch him. Compare how they've been discussing.

74 is awkwardly phrased and tries to paint impulsive as scummy.
87 is getting into an argument that reminds me of scum backed into a corner with bad logic.
228 is a scumpost.
229 scumreads lane for hypocrisy about something only barely related to the mafia game.
He says his lane scumread is basically predicated on MM being scum in 242 but then mostly ignores MM in the following posts.

I just realized how much FA called MM scum just so he could call lane scum but avoided talking about him. Then, in 658, MM is suddenly null because he "doesn't really see the scum case against him," although he "has already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed." When his original reason for calling lane scum was that he was dumping money to his partner, MM. I was also struck, before, by MM's weird townread of FA (even when I erroneously told him no other wagon was possible besides his own) and his not really explained push on Fire as a counterwagon to FA.

I feel better about the FA lynch now, and if he flips scum, I want MM's head tomorrow.

Where did I scumread FA_Q2? Oh, that's right. Nowhere. My opinion of him never changed.

That's the thing.

Why have you been consistently calling FA town and trying to direct people away from him without showing any evidence of trying to sort him?

And the way you say "why would I be scumbuddies with FA_Q2" implies that there is a compelling reason for you

not

to be buddies. Since you pointed to none and there is none, it comes off simply as desperation at being caught.

Now you're trying to defend anything I say about him by simply contradicting my assertions, and conceding but waving away the things you can't contradict.

I feel really good about this lynch now.

You have stated you thought I was town implicitly at least 2-3 times or at the very least no alignment. You have stated I was scum after I was voting you and pressuring you. This post screams more scumminess in various places that I dont' think I need to point out.

Fire, you misunderstand "not calling you scum" for "reading you as town".
Keep in mind, I supremely hate you independently of my reads.
The only things I certified were that you were being an asshat, and that you were acting in no way town.

I agree that lane's eagerness to jump on your wagon is scummy, Fire, by the sheer speed of it. He might just have wanted the day with a lynch, though.
Also, I don't think I've ever said that you're town. This post above might be my only townread on you.

I've been spending the last hour before the crash being ready to switch my vote, just in case. But seeing Fire like that is a real clincher. I don't need the money so I'll just let infinity hammer if he wants to.

We should all be following the plan of betting and giving the hands to our townread.
Right now I am curious on that kill?
BBT wasn't really trying in the game if my memory serves right.

Seriously??!!
If you give a lot of money to a single player and IF they are town, scum know who they should NK.
If your townread is scum then lol.

QFT.

Also, killing BBT is as uninformative as it gets.

Also,

Fold

.

Attempting to put shade on lane here without really committing to it.
VOTE: MM
What would you have done differently?

First, maybe wait up: there was over 1 day before the deadline.
Lane just skipped you, giving you too little time to express yourself, before he kicked FA_Q2 out of the game. He just denied you opportunity to talk and potentially approve / disapprove, and he did that for what..?
Also, wanting money back on him at the cost of a foolish early hammer, especially taking some THAT WAY, just pings the hell out of my gut. Plus I take offense to your "without committing to it" thing. I commit.
VOTE: lane

Ninja'd

WHY THE HELL DO YOU STILL THINK GIVING MONEY LIKE THAT IS A GOOD IDEA?

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

You're misunderstanding and misrepping now?

Anyone can be short-sighted: I thought that "each hand with one winner grants a Bulletproof", and the matter isn't even mod-cleared to me yet. Stop shitting all over me every chance you get.
I'm doing that already but VOTE: lane because you're being a bag of seriously messed-up crap.

I had more to add but the young one is hungry and I have to get dinner ready.
The short end of all these quotes is the horrible reason's that MM has voted for players in this game that Infinity calls town and strong reads with strong opinions, which is crap if you read the quotes above.
There was litterally no case against MM and he continues to call fire scum throughout that day. MM's scum reads are limited all the while infinity calls him town over and over again.
Any points made against MM and infinity is there to defend him like crazy.
Something smart noted the WK if you see the above but leaves it be and at one points has a Faq2/MM scum read that is null and void once faq2 flips town.
why that is, is unknown.

I will say in the end of reading these 3 in comparison I'm leaving ore towards infinity/MM scum team.

vote: Infinity

[farside22]

MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...

I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.

No he doesn't.
His opponent ions are weak as shit.
"Fire is scum because he called me scum" "farside is scum because she scares me as scum"
Ignoring is one past game played on this site from you is horse shit.

[farside22]

farside, what do you think of shadow?

Non existent and in need of a replacement.

What are those things exactly

Are you joking infinity? People have been calling things that the mm does scummy pretty much constantly. Or at least I have. I'm surprised you forget continually acknowledging those things and calling them newbtown over and over and over and over again? And now you say there is no case on the mm? Just because your don't agree with the numerous points against the mm, doesn't mean there is no case.

Farside, I believe the mm is the proper lynch.

Most likely.
As I said I'm shaking at those I'm reading scummy currently.

While I'm thinking I had this moment last night where I was thinking about rc and wondered if he might be 3rd party.
Reading wingback views I may nix that but for now I'm staying onto infinty for a bit here.

[farside22]

Ok so I really doubt fire is town, his read switch on me when he was town reading me for my push earlier isn't genuine. He's probably an SK given the read switch, but even then it doesn't make sense to kill town power -_- Not much we can do about that.

I don't know if you guys will want to lynch a claimed vig today, but I really think fire is scum; his thought processes don't make sense from a town perspective.

I will make a case for mm town later on, I looked over some of the arguments for him being scum and I just don't think those things are scum tells.

@farside re mm, having strong reasoning doesn't mean strong opinions. See his response to you as an example of what I mean.

Even if you guys really think mm is scum, we should at least wait 1 day for his tracker result.

Why?
If he's scum he'll just lie to get through another lynch.

[farside22]

I haven't caught up but really quick since you are online, What's your read on RedCoyote?

I'm thinking jr'so 3rd party but mostly it's because I expect him to play better as town or scum.
I'd be disappointed if he was scum, I'd blacklist if he'said town.

[farside22]

Ok so I really doubt fire is town, his read switch on me when he was town reading me for my push earlier isn't genuine. He's probably an SK given the read switch, but even then it doesn't make sense to kill town power -_- Not much we can do about that.

I don't know if you guys will want to lynch a claimed vig today, but I really think fire is scum; his thought processes don't make sense from a town perspective.

I will make a case for mm town later on, I looked over some of the arguments for him being scum and I just don't think those things are scum tells.

@farside re mm, having strong reasoning doesn't mean strong opinions. See his response to you as an example of what I mean.

Even if you guys really think mm is scum, we should at least wait 1 day for his tracker result.

There's a chance he'll get a guilty, if he's scum we can try to out-WIFOM his result or something, idk

What do you think about fire's claim? Is shadow town to you by PoE now or...?

You have switched reads too so I can't even begin to take your comments at face value.
Second I take a lot of issue with your desire to lynch a claimed vig and a desire to see a scummy player possibly fake a result that may just mislynch a Towniest.

[farside22]

I changed my reads a bunch, but fire was town reading me for my push and now is scum reading me for it, it just doesn't make sense.

Right now I am definitely fine with scum!mm 1v1ing a townie, but I am a little biased cause I think he's town

I was townreading you and now you make no sense, like your defense of MM its full of clutter that just assumes he is town, without going into what makes him town. You keep using "newb town" as a crux to the argument. You also say there is no case, when numerous people point out reasons and you outright dismiss most without touching them on any detail beyond "they are wrong". Like explain more detail on why MM is town, or take apart our arguments without outright dismisisng them.

Like your read on him makes no sense to me. It just assumes everything he does is "town".

This^^^
So much this.

[farside22]

Are we not going to add to the pot for a strong town read to win?

[farside22]

Going to hang back and see how many players actually have courage in this game before moving forward, because I have seen a lot of gutless posts lately.

Vote: rc

Check

[farside22]

Sorry

Fold

[farside22]

Why is fire a scum read mm?

[farside22]

The real question is "why should he be a town read"? He's been antagonizing me for a while with barely any reason.

I'll highlight all his posts.

254: First post taunting.
256: Nobody has any business saying they're "probably" scum. I read that as

dumb

.
272-274: Saying lane is scum for no reason and asking someone for why he's not. I read that as

selfish

.
I notice now that he stays non-committal while casting shade. I read that as

[PG -18]

.
297: Agreeing with truth. Attacking lane for being a yes man has little point when he was one, and he ends up attacking me later over that.
405: Vote for no reason.
423-424,426: No read on the card. Everyone makes oversights, but the fact that he attacks me on my oversights when I make one and he's guilty of that reads

morally ailed

.
427: Angry for no reason.
428: Swing reads on Pers and MMe bring nothing to the table.
432: It's basically just a pisstake on Pers.
434: Avoiding debate. Sometimes you're just annoyed, so that can slide, it's not really town though.
443: "90% is non-commentable" is a nice way to bail out of making reads.
444: Realizing your doucheprick-style isn't gonna help anyone but yourself and still keeping on with it voluntarily.
445 did nothing.
448: Misunderstanding. Giving off this feeling of "it's all about me" is a scumtell because scum is a minority (one that you generally act apart of to avoid team-pushing killing the scumteam). Denying the scumtell is a scumread.
449: Hates buddying. Buddying is not only a way for scum to hide, but it's also a way for town to form credblocks that can sway the game.
450: The tunnel-vision starts here. The only information I have that you guys don't have is that I got by reading the rules. The rest is speculations and deductions. Calling me "the right lynch for the day" off of one scumread.
451 is a dumb strategy as it encourages giving out little hands and counts entirely on luck anyway.
454 & 456 are an attempt to side-track conversation, thus shutting down town's one scumhunting tool. This reads

shoulda-shut-up

.
459 is right in that Infinity didn't elaborate on his reasons.
461 does not explain how much I seem "informed".
464: Stupid accusations. Playing alone doesn't mean you rolled a role that requires you to play alone. Scum play the majority of the game alone.
465 is an ignore post. Ignoring people isn't town.
551 is basically trying to ascend the minigame into more than what it is. With a glance back, he shouldn't even care that much if he's a vig.
560 just says "my plan is flawless" when it isn't. If everyone calls on an all-in, the money would just go to the idiot who had the bigger hand, not anyone of your choice. So scumreading people who deviate from the "flawless" plan is a dumb move. Also he keeps attacking me there without really backing himself up.
566, and the tunnel-vision continues! And he bullheadedly thinks his plan is still awesome when I think the flaws were already highlighted.
580-582 is bringing up something of the past, but also shows how Fire never seems to say when he changes reads. Once again, communication failure -- or just made-up stuff.
591-592 is basically unrepentance for how much of a scumbag he is. If you're town you should at least try to look town.
598: It's weird how he gets self-conscious to RC and not for other people all of a sudden. Reads as

buddying

.
600 is a sick joke about the fact that he's probably scum.
606, 608: Still chasing RC's tail.
619 is just an insult to me, after a distraction.
623 is a self-quote for extra distraction.
659 adds some extra fuel. If your asset as scum is "looking unaligned", DON'T BE SURPRISED WHEN I SCUMREAD YOU FOR LOOKING UNALIGNED!
660 is doubt-casting on something_smart.
681, 683: You say he's easy mislynch bait and still you'll end up lynching him at day-end, knowing this.
688, 690, 694: Gradual loss of interest, blank mind for more blurred comms. Scumyays. "You admit I look pro-town", tho.
695 would be fine if you'd just acknowledge being annoyed and all, but your anger is just fuel for doubt-casting on Infinity this time.
697 is full of Fire's trademark arrogant self-serving gameplay. "My reaction was NAI and I said it wasn't." is but the cherry on the stupid cake. Fire needs to realize he doesn't define the game. Then he won't break down on touch.
762 is like "I need to save my life".
769 is BS anyway.
821 is padding and still pushing the bad plan.
832 is still easy doubt-casting.
833. I don't know how you cannot understand the obvious. Playing dumb to block comms again..?
844 and 864 is looking to buddy lane.
865 is pushing me s'mores because apparently that's what Fire does.
868: Read the rules.
874 is again a gratuitous attack on someone for not understanding something.
904 is a sudden change of direction, with a reasoning that misunderstands the sensible choice of flipping reads around (earlier that day, it had been expressed that the BBT killed was likely meant not to aim at the big talkers for the reason they were potentially all wrong).
905: A day was enough for smart to change reads.
930 includes a townread on Wingback (who had no really substantial and unique post back then and only promised a catchup 3 posts earlier). And pushes for my lynch s'mores without committing and redirecting his vote.
947 starts with a lie "I'm not lynching you now" while his vote was still on smart. Scumreads him after saying that, and backs off for no reason other than he think he's tunnely. On smart.
948 is setup speculation. Not useful.
950 is right back to scumreading smart, with 992 and 993 being more or less Fire continuing his pushing of his ideas.
994 might just be demoralization, but since it's stating a flat simple truth, that slides...
995 is another attack on me. I agree that I went like him and counted the things I know and you don't as universal truth. But still, he's just being a douche here.
1001 is stating a "fact" with no proof, just to quickly dismiss someone. Attempt at taking Infinity out the conversation, and it goes on...
1009: Threatening people with a gun is not a smart move. Then again, back then I didn't notice the vig claim, but hey, it might as well be a fakeclaim and he's scum.
1014, 1016: TUNNEL-VISIOOOON
1023: Reaction to my ideas on farside are scummy, with a (purposely?) weak read. The rest of this and 1024 is blatant douchebaggery.
1034 might be dubbed Attack on Infinity because that's all it does.
1043 is a plan that contradicts with his idea of giving BP to someone, but hey, might as well run a maximum of hands since BP is inaccessible anymore.

So yeah, I see him as near-entirely devoid of townieness right now. Does that explain?

I really don't want to dissect that iso he did of me.

@SS How can you be scumreading me and MM? When did MM claim a PR?

I want to vote farside, but I suspect that 938 is a scumslip if there are 3 scum and a townslip if there aren't, and if there are 3 scum then I'd rather just give up now.
I still scumread Fire and MM, but I don't want to lynch them until later because of their PR's.

So I'm kinda stumped. I guess I'll reread Infinity and Shadow and see if anything pings me.

I want to vote farside, but I suspect that 938 is a scumslip if there are 3 scum and a townslip if there aren't, and if there are 3 scum then I'd rather just give up now.
I still scumread Fire and MM, but I don't want to lynch them until later because of their PR's.

So I'm kinda stumped. I guess I'll reread Infinity and Shadow and see if anything pings me.

I really don't want to dissect that iso he did of me.

@SS How can you be scumreading me and MM? When did MM claim a PR?

I would be so happy if you two, specifically you two, voted farside with me right now. I really want to unload on her right now, but I know it won't be pretty if I do.

Fold

@SS How can you be scumreading me and MM? When did MM claim a PR?

I don't know, why is that impossible? I don't think you're scum together.

He didn't claim a PR, but he bought Tracker, so he effectively has one.

Pedit: RC what do you think about 938? Do you think it was a slip?

I'm always reluctant about using the word "slip", because, in my experience, it happens very rarely. I've done it twice in, what, 8 years. I don't know how often farside has done it. It just doesn't happen often, and the chances of it happening necessarily go down with a scummer's seniority.

That said, I think it was a very eye-opening comment that is worthy of pressure and/or attention at this time.

Do you think farside would make up something like that if she were part of a 2-person scumteam?

Ugh I hate getting interrupted!!!

This is going to be sloppy.

I didn't read the long post by MM.
The first 4 along was misinterpretation big time.

Second I'm a replacement here. I didn't sign up to see how many players started this game so I naturally assumed mini theme being 12 to 13 players.
Rc should be lynched for making no case and sitting up the thread.
Mm should be lynched because he's scum.
I fully endorse my own lynch just so people will look hard as fuck at rc and his complete lack of scum hunting this game day and day 1.

I got to go now.

[farside22]

Oh last thing, if there is 3 scum, I'd go more towards mm, rc, Infinity.

[farside22]

Can someone give me the tdlr of what I missed so far?
Everytime I think of this game and the shitty attitude from rc I feel a need to do something anti town and be a royal bitch.

[farside22]

Can someone give me the tdlr of what I missed so far?
Everytime I think of this game and the shitty attitude from rc I feel a need to do something anti town and be a royal bitch.

I claimed odd-night cop with an inno on wingback.
I made a case on why mm is town, most people ignored it
Wingback continued his catchup
MM bet all his money when he absolutely didn't have to

Why wingback?
No offense but I don't see a scum read from that spot.
As for mm, he is literally throwing shit to see where it sticks.

[farside22]

What does scum lose by giving their money away?! WHAT DOES SCUM LOSE BY GIVING THAT MONEY AWAY?!?!

WHAT WOULD THEY GAIN?!?!

STOP USING THAT AS A TOWN TELL!!!

This.

Plus he lied about having a tracking ability, which I stated he would just lie.
Mm was forced to bet or be lynched.

[farside22]

In fact I know he didn't

Ah, I misunderstood what infinty said.

How about this.

Rc is scum, we lynch him and fire can shoot mm.

Fire no shooting Infinity Mr.

Also with some of the claims of pr before anything is brought I really believe a 2 man scum team sound under powered.
I'm sure smart will ask to lynch me on that theory alone.

[farside22]

And mm has reduced down to name calling at this point.

Saturday I'm putting a case together.
Infinty you can not keep helping mm with defense here.

[farside22]

Listen, I get Infinity has this ideal and mm but I sometimes think if you have 4 players calling the guy scummy for various reasons then maybe hes wrong.
Sadly that has yet to dawn on him.

[farside22]

Just an FYI my reads on news has about a 90% accuracy rate.
Soooooo don't expect me to just follow a read for that reason alone infinity.

[farside22]

News=newbs
Damnot auto correct

[farside22]

I don't know what to tell you about mm. Ok, he has been illogical at times. Ok, he doesn't have very many strong reads. But his thought processes and play don't make sense from scum.

Ill just point to his one finished game and point out once again he has a history that shows he can be logical.
On top of the scum tell 101 of using I can see X player kill some player.

The MM is being force replaced for his pattern of abusive behavior. He is to stop posting immediately.

P.S. Looking back through his posts I saw several examples of abusive comments from him which I originally missed. I apologize to everyone for not noticing and acting on this sooner.

Thank you!!
I mostly tuned it out, but yeah it was getting pretty bad.

[farside22]

First off thanks for being patient with me to get this together.

I'm starting with RC and why he is scum.
Instead of grabbing quotes I'm going to link his complete ISO simply because of how much it is lacking as far as scum hunting and making cases go.

ISO for RC

As I stated when I started reading this game, his first post are just catch up, with asking questions. Nothing he follows up on and later in the game you see him just lobbing a vote at BBT for being pretty non-existant.
No where in the game do you find any push on a scum read without him following someone else in the game.
Also, this is in regards to day 2 and to Wingback, I don't see Something Smart/RC scum pair. I noted that RC is following Smart and allowing him to defend him while he lurks it up when I come online.
Scum typically do that with someone that is town and I forget how often I have done the same myself in the past.

I'm including a link to an RC scum game scum RC

And an RC town game town RC

As you can see from both he doesn't say much as either alignment, but as town he had a reason for his reads and he explained himself a bit when asked about his reads when he was town, where as scum he is very under the radar and just blending in without making waves, which is what I see here.
No disagreement in this game, no real reads like he does when he is town. Just a flow I noted between the two that is very much lacking.
Also my last game with RC he was a lot more talkative and he was scum. He did the same thing but made a few crap views that i disagreed with.
Can't remember which game that was.

I'm going to wait on the replacement for MM before I go into more on that player.

Next up I'm going to looking into Shadow Step.

[farside22]

Rereading the iso on Shadow, I missed how non-existent he has been throughout the game and he just seems to lob questions and throw shade on players without any reason or it.

My scum order is more looking like this:

RC, Shadow and MM

Yes MM stays there.
I'm not letting that go any time soon and if Fire is telling the truth (which I don't really see why he would be) I can't imagine a 2 player scum team with the PR's that have claimed.

[farside22]

VOTE: shadow

Let's do this Farside, I didn't think rc is scum, and the mm, well I guess we'll give that spot the benefit of the doubt for now

Why don't you see rc scum.

I gave a reason I want to see why you think his lack of doing scum hunting is town.

[farside22]

@MM: What about Infinity's defense of you could not be scum whiteknighting you for towncred after you die?

I'm confused by how Infinity and farside both cite an excellent newb reading record (ftr, mind is terrible and that's why I keep going back and forth on MM) yet arrive at a different conclusion regarding MM. It makes me question Infinity calling MM obv!newbtown in particular.

I think there's one scum in <farside, RC>.

Just a quick silly moment in regards to this.
If I'm correct I'm the ultimate best read of newbs.
If Infinity is correct he getsaid that label.

[farside22]

Rereading the iso on Shadow, I missed how non-existent he has been throughout the game and he

just seems to lob questions and throw shade on players without any reason or it.

That's pretty rich coming from you as you've been essentially non existent this day, what complete misrep(bold part).

Ummm I'm pretty sure my activity is way more then yours.
As for the bold I'll grab quotes on that next.

[farside22]

Rereading the iso on Shadow, I missed how non-existent he has been throughout the game and he just seems to lob questions and throw shade on players without any reason or it.

My scum order is more looking like this:

RC, Shadow and MM

Yes MM stays there.
I'm not letting that go any time soon and if Fire is telling the truth (which I don't really see why he would be) I can't imagine a 2 player scum team with the PR's that have claimed.

Did you read Qubixes' (Shadow's predecessor) ISO as well? What do you think of him?

Qubixes spent the entirety of his time in the game tunneling The MM. Unless you are claiming that he was bussing (which is heavily unlikely given how he pushed The MM), I don't see him on a team with The MM at all.

You (Farside) have been tunneling The MM for a majority of D2. The fact that you so effortlessly throw Shadow_step into your scumreads without putting any real effort to read him makes me think my townreads are all wrong and you could be scum. If you genuinely were trying to read them, you'd be taking into account Qubixes' posts and not just make an easy push on Shadow for his low engagement.

As far as Shadow himself, I was townreading Qubixes but I could see him being partnered with MoI (Farside's predecessor). Their interactions have the hallmarks of MoI-distancing (see MoI's interactions with Karnos/Mathblade in Mini 1800 and the scum PT in NY195 for more examples).

I think that's probably why I'm not getting a confident scumread anywhere in my POE pool. My townlist is probably wrong and I should re-read the game from a different angle maybe consdering Farside(MoI)/Shadow(Qubixes). Going to wait for The MM replacement to help me figure out that slot.

VOTE: shadow

Let's do this Farside, I didn't think rc is scum, and the mm, well I guess we'll give that spot the benefit of the doubt for now

Why don't you see rc scum.

I gave a reason I want to see why you think his lack of doing scum hunting is town.

Why wouldn't you compromise with Lane here given he voted your other scumread?

Sorry I'm phone posting so I'm lumping this and responding in order.
Let me know if I miss anything.

1) yes I read quibix, if you remember I had him on my scum list when I read through.
2) scum bus. They can bus hard too. Mm was already being looked at so why no join late, which quibix did.
3) I'm thinking before I switch.

[farside22]

Wingback doesn't have to be his partner. Scum infinity can easily claim that he has an innocent on any player and in this case Wingback who has had a town read on him.
Infinity could just be pocketing Wingback .

Yes but in that scenario Wingback is still town.

My point is, Wingback is only NOT town if Infinity and Wingback are partners. Since I find that scenario very unlikely, we can assume that Wingback is town.

Fair point, or Infinity could be telling the truth and Wingback could be a godfather.

Wingback doesn't have to be his partner. Scum infinity can easily claim that he has an innocent on any player and in this case Wingback who has had a town read on him.
Infinity could just be pocketing Wingback .

shadow, you seriously need to explain your reads. All of them.

I'm not gonna make something up to please you. If you have a problem with my reasons that's your issue not mine.

Loving how Infinity just calls me scum without presenting a case of any sort.

This is all in regards to shadow throwing shade.
The fake town tell towards lane, throwing shade towards Infinity claim or even wingback being a gf.

[farside22]

To add to the question from Wingback.
I'm a bit apprehensive over this growing wagon and I have had a bit o paranoia in regards to Lane's comment about RC

[farside22]

Hey infinity: I see you around.
Do you think it's odd that Lane doesn't find anything wrong with RC or see anything scummy about him?

[farside22]

I feel like I'm missing something.

I'm going to do something crazy and stick with my guns on this about RC being lynched first.
If I'm wrong I'm sure I'll find out later, but something tells me following the sheep is not a good idea.

*pets guts*
Good girl, you'll keep me sane I hope.

[farside22]

Hey infinity: I see you around.
Do you think it's odd that Lane doesn't find anything wrong with RC or see anything scummy about him?

Why would that be odd? You ever see someone scumread someone else but someone else doesn't wee it? Ie. Infinity not seeing the mm scum?

I did ask what you saw that read rc as town.
Are you going to give a reason or just lash out?

[farside22]

And I see lane keeps just lashing out and accusing me of saying something I didn't.

Yeah, I'm totally not budging.

Infinty you are going to have to trust me and move to vote rc please

[farside22]

1) yes I read quibix, if you remember I had him on my scum list when I read through.
2) scum bus. They can bus hard too. Mm was already being looked at so why no join late, which quibix did.
3) I'm thinking before I switch.

Yeah, Post 564. You said "

Quibixies:moves into null scum. Thus far focus only on MM and has add zilch else to the game.

" At the time you had MM as town so, that was reasonable. When you started going after The MM, I think you'd have seen that qubixes actually made a lot of good points about him (Post 98, Post 139 and Post 340). Qbx pushing MoI to explain his defense of The MM in Post 266 also sounded like he genuinely wanted to get the MM lynched. Why go out of his way to press the issue when he has a strong town player derailing his partner's lynch?

What do you think about me essentially doing the same thing

How were you doing the same thing? You were townreading The MM all along. My issue with Farside is that she went through ISOs and came up with The MM and Shadow_step as partners. I think that's unlikely based on how Qubixes pushed MM. But it does make sense if Farside was scum throwing in two easy targets together in her scumpile (or bussing Shadow/RedCoyote).

Hmm I forgot about that.

Can I say something that may come off as rude but your accusing me of not seeing how quibix pushed mm.
But you seem to miss that I just pushed rc/shadow into the spotlight and your accusing me of being scum with them.
Are you typically Hypocritical?

It just a peeve of mine when people do that.

Anyways if you think rc is scum please vote for him.

[farside22]

1) yes I read quibix, if you remember I had him on my scum list when I read through.
2) scum bus. They can bus hard too. Mm was already being looked at so why no join late, which quibix did.
3) I'm thinking before I switch.

Yeah, Post 564. You said "

Quibixies:moves into null scum. Thus far focus only on MM and has add zilch else to the game.

" At the time you had MM as town so, that was reasonable. When you started going after The MM, I think you'd have seen that qubixes actually made a lot of good points about him (Post 98, Post 139 and Post 340). Qbx pushing MoI to explain his defense of The MM in Post 266 also sounded like he genuinely wanted to get the MM lynched. Why go out of his way to press the issue when he has a strong town player derailing his partner's lynch?

What do you think about me essentially doing the same thing

How were you doing the same thing? You were townreading The MM all along. My issue with Farside is that she went through ISOs and came up with The MM and Shadow_step as partners. I think that's unlikely based on how Qubixes pushed MM. But it does make sense if Farside was scum throwing in two easy targets together in her scumpile (or bussing Shadow/RedCoyote).

Hmm I forgot about that.

Can I say something that may come off as rude but your accusing me of not seeing how quibix pushed mm.
But you seem to miss that I just pushed rc/shadow into the spotlight and your accusing me of being scum with them.
Are you typically Hypocritical?

It just a peeve of mine when people do that.

Anyways if you think rc is scum please vote for him.

[farside22]

I have my crazy hat theory.

Rc/mm/lane.

Yes I know mm voted lane and there was lane pushing mm.
But as crazy as it sound, shudders, what if faq2 was right about mm/lane doing the betting on purpose.
I'll chew on it for a bit, while I note lane dodged my question about RC again.

[farside22]

Can I say something that may come off as rude but your accusing me of not seeing how quibix pushed mm.
But you seem to miss that I just pushed rc/shadow into the spotlight and your accusing me of being scum with them.
Are you typically Hypocritical?

It just a peeve of mine when people do that.

Anyways if you think rc is scum please vote for him.

I agree with you that scum bus. I'm not asking you to discount every pair that push each other. I'm saying that Qubixes pushing The MM didn't seem like a bus. But MoI's interactions with both Qubixes and RedCoyote are well within the range of what I've seen him do as scum with his partners. I played with MoI once and he was scum (Mini 1800). What was memorable to me was the distancing he did with his buddies but always finding a way to lynch town if at all possible. A scumgame of his I read (NY195) followed the same pattern. In fact, he rarely townreads his partners. His play here w.r.t RedCoyote and qubixes seems like a lot of noise but not a lot of real follow-up. That doesn't necessarily mean you are partners but it's something I need to look at more closely.

Hmm I forgot about that.

Now that I brought it to your attention, what do you think?

There is bussing and there is making a case a screaming from the rafters about a player being scummy.
If you can't tell the difference I can't help you.
Also it'd be nice if you reference what I'm saying this game instead of whom I replaced.

Reviewing quibix he does push point about MM and when Infinity brings up points he seems to be thinking about it.
I noted some analysis by him from his brief play.
Overall null town.

[farside22]

I have my crazy hat theory.

Rc/mm/lane.

Yes I know mm voted lane and there was lane pushing mm.
But as crazy as it sound, shudders, what if faq2 was right about mm/lane doing the betting on purpose.
I'll chew on it for a bit, while I note lane dodged my question about RC again.

You asked what I see rc town from? Nothing. I told you I don't see rc scum. So dodged anything? I said I haven't looked at rc close enough but nothing stuck out as scummy. Why are you misrepping me like this?

So he's null.

And you again are fine with the fact he's lurking all the game day even though he is posting around ms. And has made not a single case.

Have you played with RC before?

[farside22]

Just shut up Farside. I don't have to have the same fucking reads as you. For fucks sake. Just shut the fuck up. My reads are somewhere else. Jfc.

And the spaz out begins.

See I remember you and RC in a game together before.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
That game.

So I'm a bit befuddled by your lack of noticing how different he was.
And now that I ask you get all defensive when I ask why you don't see rc as scum.
Why can't you explain?

[farside22]

Can we stop this TvT nonsense -_-

Someone wake me when the replacement happens.

[farside22]

VOTE: shadow

Let's do this Farside, I didn't think rc is scum, and the mm, well I guess we'll give that spot the benefit of the doubt for now

I also haven't looked at rc close enough to have a scum read, but nothing has stuck out

Noticing how different he was in a game over 3 years ago?! Youre a joke

Farside you're literally throwing shit and seeing where it sticks

And I see lane keeps just lashing out and accusing me of saying something I didn't.

Yeah, I'm totally not budging.

Infinty you are going to have to trust me and move to vote rc please

Where did I accuse you if saying something you didn't?

1 by 1

I asked lane why he didn't read rc scum.
He hasn't responded other then to say the same thing over and over again.
He misrepresented my question saying I took issue with him disagreeing with my read.
I never said that, at all.
Finally he breaks down into using derogorty comments because......
Yeah I'm saying because he can't answer my question and instead of looking at Rc iso to give a thought he breaks down into hissy fits.

[farside22]

Literally the two most obvtown players in this game are calling each other scum. Let's just lynch shadow.

Listen I don't trust the vig to shot rc here, so you want shadow talk to wingback.

[farside22]

@Farside, I'm not seeing Lane as scum here. This game has gone on for a month and he's been obvtown in nearly every post he's made so far. If he's not scumreading RedCoyote but was scumreading Shadow, I don't think it's at all unreasonable for him to go in that direction when you pointed them both out as scumreads. I have a hard time buying that all of his obvtown posting still made you paranoid because he didn't vote RC with you at the time. Are you as town prone to bouts of paranoia?

Yes.
I don't see town lane unwilling to give a reason for his reads either.

Ok let's talk about it. What scummy things has RC done that shadow hasn't?

RC has been MIA all of day 2 without explaining shit, where shadow has given views.

[farside22]

shadow has given views.

I kinda see what you mean, but this part is a stretch

There not good.
There by many mean controversial and even laughable.
Does that make it scummy?

[farside22]

People are concentrating too much on the money and abilities instead of the actual game.

A similar thing happened in Blood borne, it was a large theme game which recently finished. Town ended up self destructing which cost us the game.

Infinity's illogical defense of MM, makes me wanna lynch MM even more.

@mod can you prod..uh yourself ?

Tell you what Infinity I'll give examples of what I see from shadow if you willing go through rc post and tell me why he isn't scum.

[farside22]

I'm going to have more after.

[farside22]

I agree what you said about RC is scummy, but it's just occasional things like what I quoted in 1243 that makes me go ehhh

I also think this is an opportunistic vote and not a bus

Rc is scum, we lynch him and fire can shoot mm.

I'm down with this actually

VOTE: RC

Still need to look at those games though

Faking sleeping.....
Seriously.

Also the vote from shadow was a bit where I stepped back and relooked at a few things.

[farside22]

Still waiting for your catch up Wingback. Zzzz

SS and Fire is town-town, who else is going to have the balls to say this?

What in their interactions makes you think that ?

This kind of question requires a real fleshed out response that I'm not in the position to do it justice at this time. How deep do you want me to get? Are you willing to hear me out with an open mind, or are you just asking this to be asking it?

I want to know why you arrived to that conclusion. I haven't played too many games so far on this site, but when "A" has said X and Y are t vs t, "A" has more often than not been scum.
I've seen this done a lot for pre flip town credit especially the lynch is between X and Y.

I love how you're putting words I my mouth and still not giving a reads list after I asked for it multiple times. I never said you were scum, I said I thought you could be scum. Come on dude, play the game.

PRs are still PRs no matter what night they can get used on.

What makes you think I "could" be scum ?

I have a town lean on lane and farside is nullish town.
Scum lean on MM and RC.
FA is prob town to, but I can't really say.
It doesn't make sense for town FA to claim vig when he was no under pressure what so ever.
If scum have a roleblocker or jailkeeper or any such role which prevents FA from shooting they'll keep doing that to him to wifom us or just hope he shoots a town or just kill him off.
It also could be scum gambit between you and FA, something you planned at night to clear whoever comes out of that alive for the rest of the game.

You're nullish scum for me.

Smart and wingback are null.

Why? If Infinity is illogically defending MM, shouldn't that make you want to lynch Infinity as opposed to MM? From your POV, either he would either be scum defending a partner or scum defending town so why would it make you want to lynch MM more? Unless you think Infinity is town defending scum in which case, his defense shouldn't affect your read on MM.

By the way, why are you scumreading MM in the first place? The only thing I found was Post 819 and you agreeing with Lane's point in Post 910 after he questioned you about it. That doesn't look like a strong enough read for you to conf-bias Infinity's defense as making MM more scummy. What do you think of MM's response to that point?

MM

-

Infinity

Most likely, scum infinity is defending scum MM because MM has a strong PR.

MM

-

Infinity

Less likely, town infinity is defending scum MM, because he is conf biased, maybe arrogance plays a part in this. Refusal to keep an open mind and just illogicaly defending MM, without any solid reason. Just saying he is newb town......WTF?
From MM's post it's very clear that he is hard town reading Infinity as well, only because Infinity is town reading him. That's an awful reason to town read anyone. He doesn't have a problem with Infinity buddying with him so much for no reason whatsoever. I can't imagine a town MM being okay with that.

MM

-

Infinty

least likely, it doesn't make sense for scum infinity to white knight a town player who is scum read by majority of the players, he will get lynched sooner or later and scum infinity doesn't get much(if any) town creds after the MM flip. I don't see much scum motivation behind this.

Which is why I'd rather lynch MM today.

I'm phone posting by the way so I grabbed these to show that shadow has shown some analysis with in regards to player.
The one that cracks me up is he pushes a scum read on a claimed cop.
That's just bad.
No scum worth there salt would push this idea with points that make you think, is this guy nuts or what?
He also says he'said come from another site before so he ssystem what he's noted there.

Also if you are giving rc a pass for one post about being sleepy thenot i included shadows post that had a similar silly moment.

[farside22]

God I really hate the auto correct on my new phone.
Let me know if you need me to rephrase anything

[farside22]

I don't understand how one may scumhunt without "generating content" (defined by me as engaging people, asking questions, and answering questions).

As far as your reasons, going off of 135, you seem to be calling my posts "forced". Well, they kind of are, and, as I often have to begrudgingly admit (I say begrudgingly because it generally gets me in trouble even though it's true), I often do have to "force" myself when I draw town. I don't really enjoy playing town. Indeed, I only play Mafia for the opportunities to play as scum

. Paradoxically, I tend to draw a lot of negative attention as town due to being more aggressive and devil-may-care with my posts. As scum, I tend to be much more muted and calculated.

Anyway, that's my meta rebuttal to your vote. Take it how you will.

S_S seems town. FAQ does not. I'll continue to interact and see if these reads change.

Infinity:
I bolded what rc has said about himself as a player and ask a simple question.
Does this player read care free are calculaying?

[farside22]

He looks more calculating to me, but why would he say that if he was scum?? Maybe he was trying extra hard not to look calculating and thought he was succeeding but he wasn't?

Why would he not behave more like his town meta?

But to answer this I have to tell you about another game I was in.

I used to do rqs, and one of my questions was how do you behave as town or scum.
I can't remember the players name but he responded and did exactly what he did as scum and flipped scum.

So I don't know why a player would not change their meta, but no one seemed to pay attention till now, that's for sure

[farside22]

I'm 109% sure on this and if I'm wrong I'll hear about it.

*flirts with wing*
Hi, would you be a doll and vote RC with me.
Pleeeeeeaaaassssseeeeee.
I can do jumping Jack's, my hubby says it's fun to watch the girls bounce.

[farside22]

I'm 109% sure on this and if I'm wrong I'll hear about it.

*flirts with wing*
Hi, would you be a doll and vote RC with me.
Pleeeeeeaaaassssseeeeee.
I can do jumping Jack's, my hubby says it's fun to watch the girls bounce.

I never just trust another player's read in mafia games without investigating them for myself. Also, you were pretty sure about FA_Q2 as well and you were wrong there so I don't know why you would expect that even if I was townreading you.

I can send you a virtual trampoline though to have fun bouncing while I rethink my views on the game!

Spoiler:

I feel like I just got stabbed.
Not cool man.

That pic was cute.
My imagine was more dirty but that just because my hubby tells me how fascinating it is.

Wait a sec I was looking through and realized both the games that farside linked are scum!RC games

No, he was town that game.

[farside22]

Did the last hand get finished?

[farside22]

Farside sticking with RedCoyote after I called her scum with Shadow is incredibly scummy regardless of anyone else's alignment. The reasoning that she later came up with (that Lane could be scum with RedCoyote and is therefore pushing Shadow) is a stretch and Lane's the most unquestionably town player in the game. It seemed like she wanted to re-inforce my suspicion of Shadow and make me push for his lynch while either bussing RedCoyote or pushing for a RedCoyote mislynch. Add to that her being wrong about FA_Q2, and that I think she's wrong on The MM, and Lane, all of that adds up to a lot of pushes on town which I think is more likely to come from a scum player, especially one as experienced as Farside.

I'd much rather vote Farside and worry about who she's bussing next phase. Anyone with me?

So when you try to push my lynch and I flip town, does that make you scum or misguided?
I just want to know for later when I rant about how Hypocritical you are.

[farside22]

@Farside, I'm not using myself as a basis for reading you. I'm comparing your play to a recent game I read (Summer Waltz) in which you were very focused and scumhunted well. Contrast that with Alfred Hithcock. Your early play was a lot more town here than it was there. But some of your play reminds me of your later posts there.

1) I was confirmed town in that game and didn't have to argue about my reads in a very quick game.
2) I loved Hitchcock. Smiles a memory. But even I know there is vast differences. You should see the game I played when rc was scum and how much I ranted that game.
3) replacement is a different thing.
I could try to find games I replaced into, but I recall I don't do it as much as I used to.

[farside22]

Okay, I'll read it. I'm not discounting that I could be wrong about you but I have trouble seeing most of your scumreads as scum. I talked about Lane already. What do you think of my points on The MM in Post 1292? Is his slot still a scumread of yours? I know you threw out a few theories but what's your serious take on the game (as in not paranoia about Lane but actual scumreads)?

I haven't really looked at your points.
I have ADD and many times I glaze past post and at times I'm super focus.
I'll try to look over Tuesday, today I'm a bit busy.

Hypothetical question, if RC is scum, who looks most like his scum buddy and why.
I'll tell you from my perspective the lack of interaction between lane and RC is a huge red flag in my book.
I have certain expectations when it comes to players and when I see lane throw his fit and say very little during the RC points it is for sure a big neon flag waving in my eyes.

[farside22]

I may have to rethink mm and Fire.
*groans*

[farside22]

Sigh

I don't have all the energy in the world, but I checked the game that wing reference, looked at this game a bit and I'm giving infinty his crown on reading newb better.
I'll get more details Tuesday.
*waits for Infinity to say I told you so*

[farside22]

I TOLD YOU SO

Listen I had thought based on the newb game he played that he was a lot more articulate and able to express himself.
The bumbling, lack of reads, tantrum was reading as flailing around.
The Link wing shared was a completed scum game where he was being voted and didn't act at all like that and was very calm and relaxed.
That's pretty surprising to see from a noob.

Anyways I'm going to have a bigger post late.

In case something happens while I'm gone and a hammer happens I'd like to bring up day 3, briefly.

I was thinking that if Infinity lives he should be given money for the first game win.
If he dies and flips cop, then wingback should receive the first pot to become bulletproof.

[farside22]

Fire: While your around, can you explain why you have a scum read on RC, but vote for Shadow for a weak reason.

I have been avoiding this game awhile because of recent events and because I have been wanting to use my vig shot on like a third of the aliving player base.
I am leaning heavily that Farside is town right now, and i could possibly see RC being scum. I don't know where someone said RC or Farside, but I doubt heavily on farside based on what I think of as normal scum play and she hasn't displayed any of those traits to me.

ow is any of this town?
You vote who you think is scum and not which wagon is most likely to go through, especially when there is NP case on them.

If this is town we deserve to lose. I can't be arsed anymore.

VOTE: Shadow Step
I don't like the AtE used here, I think its completely out of place and fake.

Providing quotes for reference.

[farside22]

I think Fire should shoot Infinity iff Shadow flips town.

Why?

[farside22]

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

So you think Infinity is pushing another player and not taking the opportunity to jump on smart wagon because... ???

[farside22]

Fire: While your around, can you explain why you have a scum read on RC, but vote for Shadow for a weak reason.

RC for me can be wrong and I think I can tell AtE is fake better. Why do you think that reason is weak?

AtE fake is an assumption and not based on anything realistic

[farside22]

On what wagon?

Shadown wagon.
If you haven't noticed there is aboutique 3 votes on him currently and Infinity switched wagons, so I'm curious why you think scum would switch with a growing wagon.

[farside22]

Lol @ those autocorrects.
I don't know why he would switch. I mean, the obvious reason would be to capitalize on RC pressure and maybe score a mislynch there while keeping Shadow around to mislynch later.
That would make him a likely partner with you. I haven't looked at the ISOs though so I don't know how plausible that is.

*count down to town loss.*

Did you even read the case on RC or are you on tunnelling mode?

[farside22]

Lol @ those autocorrects.
I don't know why he would switch. I mean, the obvious reason would be to capitalize on RC pressure and maybe score a mislynch there while keeping Shadow around to mislynch later.
That would make him a likely partner with you. I haven't looked at the ISOs though so I don't know how plausible that is.

*count down to town loss.*

Did you even read the case on RC or are you on tunnelling mode?

Umm... no? I'm in hypothetical mode, where Infinity is scum. If Infinity is scum then I doubt RC is his partner because of that jump. As illustrated by my vote, I think the scum in that pair is more likely Shadow.

So your focus is solely on one of infinity or shadow?


Okay I'll bite, if shadow is scum who do you see scum with him?
If Infinity is scum who do you see as a partner and why?

Do I have to shake you around to get you out of the tunnel mode?

[farside22]

I'm also curious smart, why you think Infinity is scum, other then wking mm.

[farside22]

I have no clue how to make a player feel better about me when they bypass most of my post made this game.

With that said I'm going to preceeding to bash my head into a wall and hope I black out.

[farside22]

For those that are town this game, I'd like one moment for you to think back to however many games you have ever been and ask yourself, how often do you see scum trying to figure players out or attempt to understand and reevaluate the game or even communicate there thoughts on a scale that is an attempt to get to know a player.
If you can think of that maybe you maybe understand my issues more with RC and Fire currently.

[farside22]

What do you mean farside?

Well the example I have is Summer Waltz and how each player got together and reevaluated reads and bounced thoughts off of each other.
This game since day 2 there was been absolutely zip coming from RC and Fire in regards to this.
When you ask fire a question he just gives a weak response.
RC will probably do exactly what happened in Waltz, spamming the thread with some crappyears stuff and disappear again, or keep saying that he is catching up for a few more post.
But interaction, trying to get a follow without a fight, that is where I see scum fail over and over agsin.

[farside22]

If you can think of that maybe you maybe understand my issues more with RC and Fire currently.

I'm thinking RC/Fire or Infinity/Shadow based on how the wagons turned out, both pairs make sense. What are your thought on Inifinity investigating the universal townread?

It's bothered me so I asked him about it.
I was okay with his response.
Not something I agreed with but not scummy.
Something smart made a post about not seeing infinity/shadow as a scum team,but later retracted based on the votes.
I'm voting RC and based on meta and actions from him I will not let it go.

[farside22]

@Farside, what do you think of Fire's vig claim? I have a hard time seeing scum fake-claim vig under no pressure but it also doesn't make sense as town since he could be potentially roleblocked or otherwise interfered with by scum. If he were scum though, that would give him an excuse for why he isn't vig-killing anyone. He could always say "I claimed so scum rb'd me."

But then Infinity's claim could easily come from scum that didn't want to be vigged and made a hasty claim (odd-night cop seems inelegant for game design and convenient) but if he were town that was threatened with a vig-shot, he'd obviously have to claim as well.

Oooo I get to tell another story!
Okay so you know I've been around this site almost 9 years.
I've run across sk that claim vig, scum that claim vig and after no shot goes off they say they were RB.
Here's my million dollar question back.
If he really was a vig, 1) why didn't he shot night 1 and 2) why would he claims in the first place without being concerned about be rb.

[farside22]

ow is any of this town?
You vote who you think is scum and not which wagon is most likely to go through, especially when there is NP case on them.

If this is town we deserve to lose. I can't be arsed anymore.

VOTE: Shadow Step
I don't like the AtE used here, I think its completely out of place and fake.

VOTE: shadow

Let's do this Farside, I didn't think rc is scum, and the mm, well I guess we'll give that spot the benefit of the doubt for now

Hmm I also think there's one scum in <Shadow_step, Infinity>. I want to scumread them both but they make no sense as partners.

Also, Shadow seemed to imply that he knew that there were 3 scum, and there being 3 scum makes Infinity's claim more believable.

I'm just going to point out the players that voted for Shadow and the reason they had.
This does not include RC survivalistic vote.
Someone tell me why there is a wagon with so little stated for a case?

That is my final comment for the day with in regards to this.

I noted RC had a few things said, I thought, do I have time to read through this and really I don't. It's 10pm where I am and I have to get to work in the AM.

But those voting for Shadow for the reason they are is a load of crap and you can't pay me enough to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

[farside22]

I'm fine with that.

[farside22]

I think they would be trying to push a CW like farside if that was the case. Or me.

There wasn't even a case on shadow.

Rc flips scum I say fire is scum with him.
If there is a 3rd I keep thinking between something smart or lane.
The gaps of logic from smart is really disturbing.
I thought I bypassed post but his lack of attention is far, far away from the game state

[farside22]

Are we throwing money to infinity?

Hi math, did you use your ability last night?

[farside22]

Man I should've trusted my gut on shadow

Anyway fire's claim is confirmed bullshit

It's fire/shadow, let's do it.

VOTE: fire

I think fire and something smart.
But i could be bias.

I agree completely about fire, but I would like to organize the money to make you BP so you can get results tonight if we lynch correctly.

[farside22]

Why smart instead of shadow?

Interaction with fire from yesterday.
See how shadow attacks fire and Fire is just making a crappie reason for the vote.
Smart seems to blame me for making a case and acts like that's scummy.
I don't get that.

[farside22]

I mean in what world is the player pushing points scummy because the player flipped town vs those that just voted and never presented a case.
If smart showed me why he thought it was scummy.....I just don't get it.

[farside22]

It is when you're this confident and it's wrong.

I'm sorry I had higher expectations of rc based on meta.
The horror.

[farside22]

Raise to $400

I will probably fold to give the BP to Lane at this point.
I will discuss my thoughts soon, but I wanted to save my shot another possible night if I lived. I figured it infinity was scum, then I would be shot, so my thoughts right now is infinity might be town. Why not kill me if I was going to be confirmed as soon as he flipped scum?

I don't believe you.

[farside22]

Raise to $400

I will probably fold to give the BP to Lane at this point.
I will discuss my thoughts soon, but I wanted to save my shot another possible night if I lived. I figured it infinity was scum, then I would be shot, so my thoughts right now is infinity might be town. Why not kill me if I was going to be confirmed as soon as he flipped scum?

I don't believe you.

[farside22]

I don't believe you.

Okay, you want to go into why you think I will fold?

1) lane stated he was betting his max already
2) you thought you were going to be killed but didn't shoot?
*cough bullshit cough*

[farside22]

bet 210

I think that's most of my money

Point of reference in regards to Lanes post today.

[farside22]

1) lane stated he was betting his max already
2) you thought you were going to be killed but didn't shoot?
*cough bullshit cough*

I think theres a chance that if I shot wrong, the game auto ends. I don't want to go into post game and hear complaints for shooting a town investigative.

Now, I figured given my role, I would be shot if Infinity was actually scum. since I made no doubt about my role.

Can you explain why this doesn't make sense from my point of view? Essentially I called a bluff on scum, the fact they didn't go for me tells me that its likely not Infinity. So my read on him is likely wrong.

Even if lane bet his max, he can still win this hand if I fold.

1) you could have shot night 1
So this excuse just looks like crap.

Claiming VT.

I want something smart to claim next.

I'm under the impression that if someone bets max and it doesn't reach the max bid by another player, the player stays in the pot.

mod: if a player (A) bids more money then player (B) has are they still considered part of the pot or can they fold

I'm treating this like regular poker mechanics where if lane can't match it, that fire still is viable to win the pot [/b]

@lane and smart what is your view on fires claim?

[farside22]

I'm on mobile so I haven't looked at ISOs yet.
But some of it's PoE: I think you and lane are town, and kinda Math though I do need to hear their catchup thoughts.
Farside because of the RC push. Infinity because I haven't liked his posting and he makes sense with farside. Shadow because I haven't liked his posting. (I'll pull quotes later.)
I remember yesterday looking at ISOs and saying I could see a farside/Infinity team. I also remember saying I could see Infinity/Shadow bussing. I haven't yet looked at farside/Shadow interactions, though they both appeared to strongly believe that there were three scum.

And the weak reason from smart pile on.
Pushing a scum read is not scummy and you have yet to explain why it is.
What posting from Infinity don't you like and why?

I fucking hate vague people.

[farside22]

Rereading the iso on Shadow, I missed how non-existent he has been throughout the game and he just seems to lob questions and throw shade on players without any reason or it.

My scum order is more looking like this:

RC, Shadow and MM

Yes MM stays there.
I'm not letting that go any time soon and if Fire is telling the truth (which I don't really see why he would be) I can't imagine a 2 player scum team with the PR's that have claimed.

I think they would be trying to push a CW like farside if that was the case. Or me.

There wasn't even a case on shadow.

Rc flips scum I say fire is scum with him.
If there is a 3rd I keep thinking between something smart or lane.
The gaps of logic from smart is really disturbing.
I thought I bypassed post but his lack of attention is far, far away from the game state

I'll help you with the Farside shadow stuff. She puts him in her scum pile. I take a quick look see and think ok I'll sheep this see where it goes.

Almost immediately Farside is up my asshole coming out my mouth about why I town read rc which I didn't and why I don't scumread rc and then why I don't scumread rc and wtf people voting shadow for no reason and defending shadow

Yeah and I asked why you thought that.
You know bring links to explain your thought process like I did.
Why do you keep acting like I was asking a lot?

[farside22]

1) you could have shot night 1
So this excuse just looks like crap.

Why would I shot night 1 when reads are the weakest, I subbed in when we were half way through day 1 and you think I would be confident enough to shoot then? I am a 1-shot. Why would I waste my shot so early when my reads were just forming.

That's fair, but why do you think Infinity is scum?

[farside22]

Pretty sure the scum team is MM-Mathblade/Smart/x right now, it doesn't make sense for scum to not kill a tracker.
Smart's 180 on MM on day 2 was weird as hell.

Well this is some wifom

[farside22]

That's fair, but why do you think Infinity is scum?

I haven't said he was scum, the only way he is scum is if it was with you or if scum have a roleblocker thats on me to prevent me from shooting him.

The fact I am not dead told me he is likely actually town.

You were voting him day 2 and talked about shooting him.

[farside22]

Well this is some wifom

2 nights in a row?
MM was town read by majority of the players at the end of day 2, I can't wrap my head around him not being killed.

Night 1 he was BP
Night 2.....idk. I don't try to out guess scum motives
.

[farside22]

Shadow were/are you planning to JK scum or town?

This question is dumb.

You were voting him day 2 and talked about shooting him.

I am talking about today, I was scumreading him. I also was starting lean towards possibility of being wrong on him later in the stages of day 2.

You are right, I was. For some reason I thought you meant today. My read has changed.

What do you think of shadow currently?

[farside22]

Also I have right now $820 dollars that I am going to be giving all away today regardless to my strongest town read, which right now is Lane.

I suggest you all fold on the hand and I will too, so he can get BP and the money.

I don't have a strong town read on the guy.
Ever since I asked him to explain his reason for his read on RC it's like a grisly bear caught in a trap growling.
It shouldn't be like that with him

I'm still waiting on math too to see what he has to say.

[farside22]

What do you think of shadow currently?

I have no strong thoughts on him and he is in my possible scum pool and would lynch pool.
I said yesterday I didn't like his thoughts. I want him to go more into his reads.

Something_Smarts reads are the most odd to me though right now, that I can't figure out how they make sense.

Smart is in my scum pile.

I'm leaning town on shadow. I think wingback did some good research between him and quibix to not get sacked into that push from others.

[farside22]

Everyone claimed except for mathblade

Odd-night cop, 1-shot vig + 7VT's vs. 2 scum? Kind of an odd setup but could be balanced

I changed you quote to see if it makes sense

[farside22]

I can't even begin to say how horrible I feel about this game for multiple reasons.

Vote: smart

Fold

[farside22]

What about Farside having shadow in her scum pile until I sheeped her and instantly starts defending shadow and replaces him with me?

Idk. I just want mathblade slot dead

Have you explained your lack of scum read on RC, looks, nope
I did explain my town read with reasonsome.

[farside22]

Oh I get it Lanes doing association without a flip.
Great story.

Zzzzzz

[farside22]

Oh I get it Lanes doing association without a flip.
Great story.

Zzzzzz

That's comical! Considering you had me as rc's scum partner!

It's based on how you are playing the game.
Not just because, also the fact you ignore large gaps in logic.

There could be a cop guilty on lane in this game and I still wouldn't lynch him.

Can you please shot me tonight then.
Please, because if no one gives a fuck I'd like to die then.

[farside22]

Take a deep breath farside, and take a break. There's no way we can win this if people keep insulting each other and refusing to cooperate.

PEdit: -_-

Fine.
You know where my vote is at.

[farside22]

Hi I'm lane, I'm going to ignore the fact farside asked me to explain why I didn't scum read a player because it suits my agenda.

[farside22]

Someone else should ask lane why he is scum reading shadow.
You know since he never made a case that I noticed and just dodges questions from me.

[farside22]

@farside: I don't think lane can because he has a case of scum-itis

Great, the crazy guy in the game agrees with me about lane

[farside22]

Oh I get it Lanes doing association without a flip.
Great story.

Zzzzzz

That's comical! Considering you had me as rc's scum partner!

It's based on how you are playing the game.
Not just because, also the fact you ignore large gaps in logic.

There could be a cop guilty on lane in this game and I still wouldn't lynch him.

Can you please shot me tonight then.
Please, because if no one gives a fuck I'd like to die then.

*sigh*

Or we could just lynch a person who wants town dead?

Do whatever floats your boat.
My vote is only for 1 of 2 players I'm scum reading.
Smart or Lane.

[farside22]

Why smart instead of shadow?

Interaction with fire from yesterday.
See how shadow attacks fire and Fire is just making a crappie reason for the vote.
Smart seems to blame me for making a case and acts like that's scummy.
I don't get that.

I mean in what world is the player pushing points scummy because the player flipped town vs those that just voted and never presented a case.
If smart showed me why he thought it was scummy.....I just don't get it.

I'm on mobile so I haven't looked at ISOs yet.
But some of it's PoE: I think you and lane are town, and kinda Math though I do need to hear their catchup thoughts.
Farside because of the RC push. Infinity because I haven't liked his posting and he makes sense with farside. Shadow because I haven't liked his posting. (I'll pull quotes later.)
I remember yesterday looking at ISOs and saying I could see a farside/Infinity team. I also remember saying I could see Infinity/Shadow bussing. I haven't yet looked at farside/Shadow interactions, though they both appeared to strongly believe that there were three scum.

And the weak reason from smart pile on.
Pushing a scum read is not scummy and you have yet to explain why it is.
What posting from Infinity don't you like and why?

I fucking hate vague people.

I need to check if the last questions I ask were even responded to.

[farside22]

Nope, smart hasn't responded to my last set of questions were he made a vague push

[farside22]

Farside, you just keep complaining about lane having not made a case on Shadow while at the same time not having a case on me. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Actually she only just now started talking about my case on shadow, but acts like she's been asking all along. Not sure why though since I'm voting for mathblade

Never implied that. You just tend to give vague responses when asked a question and I figure if someone else ask, maybe they will see it to.

Farside, why am I scum?

why didn't you think RC was scummy.

If you say one more time I saw nothing scummy about him, my point pretty much stands as to why you are scummy.
You made all your pushes on day 1 and said next to nothing day 2.
And you voted for shadow day 2, but never explain why he was scummy or pushed a case on him.
Why is mathblade scummy?
Please explain why the crazy guy who admitted to tracking the dead townie would do that as scum.

[farside22]

Youre one of the dumbest fucking people I know. You're asking me to tell you why I didn't see something that WAS NOT EVEN There first of all. And second of all rc wasn't on my radar. Not everyone is in everyone's radar all game or ever. Do you understand how obnoxious that is? Why is it so hard to get through you stupid little head that I hadn't looked at rc? And through playing the game normally I hadn't seen anything scummy.

And no, your point doesn't stand. I've given you the full response to my ability why I didn't scum read A TOWN FUCKING PERSON!

Honestly you should die. You're scum reading me simply for not agreeing with you. When you were wrong. That is your entire case. You're shit

I sheeped you in shadow, I said that.

And my reasons for scum reading mathblade have been talked about extensively. Are you fucking serious?

I don't see a reason for those comments towards me.

mod I'm sorry but you can replace me I don't think anyone should be talked to like this

[farside22]

The mod asked and I was fine staying if lane is leaving.
I'm not going to get into the argument with lane's personal attack.

@Fire do you object giving Infinity the BP? If so why?

[farside22]

The mod asked and I was fine staying if lane is leaving.
I'm not going to get into the argument with lane's personal attack.

@Fire do you object giving Infinity the BP? If so why?

Did I understand the point you were trying to make farside?

And Lane looks like they are just passing money to fire.

If anyone has a good hand please get in there. If I had cards I would in that hand myself.

You asked the questions just fine.

Can someone summarize who won the first two hands?

Will read up in a moment?

Day 1 mm won the first hand.
Day 2 shadow won.

Why did you only want to know who won?

[farside22]

While I'm thinking, math, are you only voting fire because of his claim?

[farside22]

Why did we have no one as BP? Are we concerned about vigs?

Fire claimed 1 shot vig under no pressure and says he is saving the shot.
Also Infinity claimed odd night cop and I think we should give him the pot.

[farside22]

I really don't see Fire as scum.
I've been pretty wrong with my reads so don't mind me at all.

[farside22]

VOTE: SS

There are 2 SS in this game.
Something Smart (my scum read)
Shadow Step (Infinity is scum reading the guy, but I don't remember why off hand)

[farside22]

I really don't see Fire as scum.
I've been pretty wrong with my reads so don't mind me at all.

Didn't you have a scumread on me or was leaning on me as a possibility at the start of the day?

I changed my mind.

See here is the problem I have with you and in a nutshell it is your claim. It bothers me, but frankly it isn't enough to hold a scum read. I was also put off by your lack of comments during day 2. Reevaluting the game I don't see it as enough to find a scum read on you.
Also some of how i felt was also in regards to your desire to give Lane money when I didn't think that was a good idea.

[farside22]

And something smart still presents no case against.
And avoids my questions.


Just saying

[farside22]

Sorry lol. My case in a nutshell is that you don't just get to walk away free after mislynching RC like that.

What questions did you want answered?

I asked you how often you see scum pushing case vs sheeping votes.

[farside22]

I'm starting to think math is scum now.

I'm up later then I should be so I maybe misremembering something

[farside22]

I'll have something together for this game on Thursday.

[farside22]

okay I need a quick look at this. I feel certain that Smart is scum. I know I said that about RC and FAQ.
But seriously the dude has no cases, no scum reads other then me and the engagement most of the game is lack luster at best.

I'm not loving the WIFOM about night kills, scum kill or don't kill for reason's.
I want to reevalute, Fire, Math and Shadow.
I was thinking about Lane but I know if I read him I will just feel that hatreded I felt earlier so I'm just going to say HI Titus, how is your read coming along? Whom besides Smart are you scum reading currently?

[farside22]

Infinity my questions are for you.
You are town reading Mathblade but I'm a bit unsure can you explain why these things read town to you?

@mod: can abilities be used in the same night that they are bought ?

No. I tried.

Really? Why didn't they no kill then? How do you know scum aren't afraid of a tracker? And why isn't it smart for town to use a tracker?
What did the mm do last night?

Scum didn't no-kill because no-killing is useless in nearly all circumstances. Killing BBT was always going to be more efficient than no one.
I bought the Tracker and tried to use it, but I was denied by technicalities.
Also, getting the Tracker earlier on allows me to have maximum chances of tracking a kill rather than a bought ability. And if you track nothing, you get refunded, so no loss.

He can't afford it... So what about it?

I could afford it. It cost 1000$, I had 1160 or something. So yes, I bought it.

Here's the deal, if we don't get to use the items the night we buy them, we can't afford not to get all the powers.
If the mm bought the tracker, that's 4500 dollars left out there?
We need to get 2 people 1250. They can both get vengeful. This is the least we should try for.
2000 left. We get 2 people around 750. They can get jail keeper.
We'll go for who we think is Towniest?
That way we have the maximum abilities might 3?

Getting town vengefuls - known vengefuls - is ASKING for scum to go around and kill them later on. That has some bad points because welp, everybody knows this is who they're going after. But it has some good points in that a vengeful who survives is likely scum - but at this point killing them costs us a townie.

Already outed as tracker here.

Yes I tried to use it on Wingback. Got refunded so I will have another shot tonight.

Thought the push of money from Lane was weird at the start of the game so I tried figuring out who Lane's partner likely is. Also think it is weird they are dropping a shit ton of money today.

I have no hand/money today therefore I take no actions

Because I didn't believe the cop claim. Wingback specifically said the odd night cop claim was a good thing for scum to claim especially on a universally townread player. This meant one of two things to me:

1) Either Wingback was scum
Or
2) They had good instincts.

If Wingback was scum that would have also meant the cop claim was invalid. They wouldn't risk the cop claim being tracked so I tracked Wingback so I would start with either two townfirms or the scum team figured out.

Not enough troll posts. The Firebringer head of the hydra doesn't play like you are as town.

Ohhh fuck no you didn't

VOTE: Mathblade

I did. Firebringer buddies as town and trolls. Look at 1800. That is what I expect of town Firebringer.

Lane + FA = scum team

Look at that voting history.

It is lane and Fire

1) Using a tracker because of one comment from Wing?
2) Associative with Lane but the only thing he said about lane was the bet and lanes explosive nature towards me. I see no trying to talk to Lane or Titus in regards to his scum read of the slot or present more reasons.
3) Pushing more in regards to Fire's claim then anything else.

I'm noting the voting as something I'm going to check into myself next.

[farside22]

VC analysis:

♠ ♡ VOTECOUNT 1.20 ♢ ♣

FA_Q2 (6):

Wingback, farside22

, Something_Smart,

RedCoyote

, Fire Assassin, lane0168

[

LYNCH!

]

Fire Assassin (4):

The MM,

FA_Q2,

BlueBloodedToffee,

Infinity 324

[

L-2!

]

Not Voting (1):

qubixes

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

The current pot is $80
The amount to call is $20
Still in the hand:

Red Coyote, Wingback

Spoiler: Betting History

Bet orders:
Ante
RedCoyote bets $10
BlueBloodedToffee folds
Fire Assassin folds
Infinity324 folds
qubixes folds
Something_Smart folds
FA_Q2 folds
The MM folds
Wingback raises to $20

Infinity 324 is V/LA the 10th-16th of July.

♠ ♡ DAY 2 VOTECOUNT ♢ ♣

redcoyote(LYNCH):

farside, shadow step, infinity, wingback, something smart

shadow step(4):

lane, something smart, red coyote, fire assassin

Fire Assassin:

Mathblace

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

There is no current pot.

No current hand.

Nobody must act.

Spoiler: Betting History

Bet orders:

Day ends in (expired on 2016-07-27 01:22:00)

RedCoyote has been lynched! Everyone on his wagon received $120.

Spoiler: Role PM

Poker Mafia Role

Hello, RedCoyote. You are

Two-tone Tex.

They call you Two-tone Tex 'cause no matter what ya do you're always wearin' that suit. You done all your killin' in that suit and folks swear up 'n' down you're gonna be buried in that suit.

Abilities:

None (barring Shop Items)

Win Condition:

You are Town and win when all threats to the Town are eliminated.

Night Phase ends in (expired on 2016-07-30 01:03:00)

Okay I'm confused how Math has Fire and Lane as scum based on voting anaylsis here.
I don't know how something thinks both scum would be voting FAQ but neither would vote for RC.
I noted Smart and myself on both wagon's
Shadow/quix is either not voting anyone or voting on the wagon.


Usually I would need a flip with this conclusion but if there is 2 scum in this game they typically distance themselves with voting. And I would need to see the purpose of each of these votes with more then just a few dead.
I like 12 player games more for that reason.
I just put in green those that flipped and myself to assess it and about i'd say 95% there is typically at least 1 scum on a town wagon.
Smart followed me, Lane followed me (from what I recall) and fire voted mostly because it was him or FAQ.
Both votes from Smart follow me. The first time he did it he said he would look into me because I pushed the case (that never happened) and again with RC.
Again ready to blame me for pushing a case.
Wingback, Infinity and myself all discussed RC and went round and round and round some about RC. Shadow voted because again it was RC or him.

My view vote analysis is showing for sure Smart in both circumstances doing the scummy thing but just sheeping votes and blaming me for the lynch going wrong.
With Fire and Shadow voting just not to be lynched.

[farside22]

Don't color yourself green in a VCA.

I know I'm town.
You want to do your own VCA I'll just laugh at you hard.

1) The VCA -- VCA is a tool and without context the results are not helpful. I think fire and lane or infinity and shadow_step were on the same side of that lynch for one reason.

Because of something smart.

By both being on the lynch it would have helped create drama. That would be drama NOT at them. Scum don't always have to be on separate wagons. In fact with the way this game is going and no one suspecting them .

Furthermore the FA_Q2 hammer makes sense because the counter is Fire Assassin. For that first VC I don't think scum had a choice.

2) Absolutely. Infinity observed a game where I was scum with Karnos. We then made neo!Karnos look so damn good that the Mason Recruiter recruited him. Them claiming odd night cop and then both something smart and infinity's minor spat today feels like a repeat of this so fucking hard. Then Shadowstep posts today asking no more questions of infinity and just goes can we lynch me already.

@Titus - Except I am a PR now dammit. My one shot fucking refunds. Look at the first post.

Scum want me gone because I can literally confirm or deny what someone is claiming in thread.

And if odd night cop with a vig made it past the review board I will seriously wonder about that review board's decision here.

@Farside22 -- No. It is not ONLY because of Fire's claim. Fire's claim should be plenty though.

It doesn't make fucking sense that a vig hasn't shot yet. None. Zero. I can understand people thinking I am an idiot. Hell if that is what causes town to lose I am sorry. But what I do not understand is if we mislynch today and it is not me and Fire Assassin is town we lose.

Furthermore Fire Assassin has pretty much said they will only vote me making me in essence goddamn hated.

Tell me in which world no scum is voting a townie on day 2.
I would like that with facts brought in.

[farside22]

Shadow: Why are you voting Mathblade? The reason you posted, which was just one and a stretch in my view doesn't seem like a good reason to vote there.

[farside22]

♠ ♡ DAY 3 VOTECOUNT ♢ ♣

Fire Assassin(2):

Infinity, mathblade

something_smart(2):

farside, Titus

mathblade(2):

fire assassin, shadow step

farside:

something_smart

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

The current pot is $436

The amount to call is $201

Still in the hand: farside, mathblade, titus, fire assassin, infinity

Farside, mathblade, titus, fire assassin must act.

Spoiler: Betting History

Bet orders:
Ante
Mathblade checks
Titus checks
Fire Assassin bets $200
Something smart folds
Shadow step folds
Infinity raises to $201.

Day ends in (expired on 2016-08-13 12:30:00)

So, the queued action question - I'll allow it but only if the conditions for it still apply. Since fire's bet is no longer the one to call the queued action request is now invalid.

I hate this vote count.

[farside22]

OK I reread fire and I won't be voting there.
Math's action makes no sense at all.
His case is solely based on fires action but my internal self wonders why he isn't question Infinity's choice and how knowing wing clears Infinity just makes no sense and reads as double talk.

I haveven a crazy thought but we'll see later about it.

Vote: math

Fold

[farside22]

I mean, I think the best case of MM being town was his very hostile and aggressive posting when he was pushed, which Wingback showed a different game of him acting very differently as scum I believe.

That was the one reason I switched but frankly it's not enough consider math has these weird association that make no sense, a VCa that makes no sense, it just reads as throwing shit to see what sticks.

[farside22]

If scum!mm got tracker, it was probably to look town (or maybe use it for himself), but I'm not sure he would think about how it could be confirmed. So I think getting tracker makes it more likely for that slot to be town.

Don't see how mm could have been scum with that play though

You don't think scum would take the ability to keep it out of town hands?

[farside22]

Spoiler:

Town, awkward and possibly scum (but probably not a good D1 lynch), and town
I definitely disagree that scum can't make terrible cases that look like confbias. I've been on both ends of forceful cases by scum on town that were weak at best. I think his defense of MM is contrived and could possibly be partner defending (one reason why I want an MoI flip today), and I agree that his thoughts on RC don't seem real.

Actually I'd like to do this.
VOTE: MM
@Infinity: MM may be new to the site, but he's not naive. This was the essence of the experience debate: he's new to the way things work on this site but not to the way they work in general.

Fold

BBT's probably town, I've seen him be abrasive and defensive as town and I think he'd be doing more as scum. I think RC's objections are mostly explainable by BBT's not liking being town as much.
RC's assertion that he and I were the only true supporters of the MM wagon is not really accurate (though I still think he's town); I never expressed any read on MM for the majority of the original wagon's life, whereas other people (like lane) definitely did help that wagon along more than I did.
I'm liking Infinity for town but I really don't see where that MM read comes from and it seems a bit like a WK... you're saying scumtells for newbs are different, but you have to remember that MM is not new to the game, and probably shouldn't be treated as such in terms of his interactions.

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

Fire just an FYI if math is scum I want you to see this. I find comments like this association of a scum buddy.

[farside22]

Fire just an FYI if math is scum I want you to see this. I find comments like this association of a scum buddy.

I have been feeling like Something_Smart is scum, but really not to do with associations.
He has been doing a classic scum tell of sitting in the background of the day and floating that middle ground.
He has no focus on him so he just says a few comments so people know he is here, but doesn't try to game solve or take focus.

Ill look at the associations though, could be damning.

No doubt the guy is scum.
The point he is pushing is weak.

[farside22]

VOTE: Something_Smart

YAH

VOTE: Smart

[farside22]

Fire just an FYI if math is scum I want you to see this. I find comments like this association of a scum buddy.

I have been feeling like Something_Smart is scum, but really not to do with associations.
He has been doing a classic scum tell of sitting in the background of the day and floating that middle ground.
He has no focus on him so he just says a few comments so people know he is here, but doesn't try to game solve or take focus.

Ill look at the associations though, could be damning.

You've seen my scumgame. Do you really think this is it?
Also, what middle ground? I think the scum are Infinity and farside. I'm just not too involved in this game and nobody's trying to engage me anyway.

Better question is this anything like how smart plays town.

[farside22]

I have been seeing smart as scum since day 2.