House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[mastina]

Hi friends!

[mastina]

150 post per day is going to be rough for me

Ah fuck there's a post restriction I didn't even notice. xD

Gotta be annoying and be wallpostey I guess rather than annoying and spampostey then.

5. Lukewarm
9. Dannflor
18. Lady Lambdadelta



15. Datisi
7. Thestatusquo
8. VPBaltar

For the record, the first three are the only three I would definitively trust to be competent in the King position.

The latter three are possible. (VPBaltar's rusty which is why he's not up higher, Shea's less rusty but still doesn't play as often, Datisi does play but while he's obvtown when town I'm not sure that he's actually reliable when it comes to scumhunting.)

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta
I think that, assuming LLD is town, she's the best overall holder of all the King's abilities. Dannflor would be good at selecting counsel to be bulletproof, Lukewarm would be good at selecting scum to execute, but I think that LLD is the best balance of all three.

[mastina]

dare u to mod kill me!

Firebringer.

VOTE: dann

Ego

VOTE: Enchant
MAD KING

VOTE: Enchant
MAD KING

Town.

A post count?
Bro I usually do post counts on a 48 hour day phase game and almost max it out, guess I’m gonna have to meme for most of this game and not care too much.

Town?

VOTE: Yume

Scum?

UwU what’s this
VOTE: dwlee

Scum. </3

[mastina]

VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

u trying to start a fight page 1. this is how ur gonna start a fight page 1 lol

Right now we're not voting for a player to eliminate them.

We're voting for an, ideally town, player, a town player that essentially gets a free vig shot, potential chance at a bulletproof, and gets to select a counsel which presumably does town things.

If LLD is town, she is the best player for all three of those overall.

[mastina]

Ngl I was caught off-guard by the number of posts in the game thread given the posting restriction--I was planning on catching up yesterday, but when I saw how many posts there were, I realized I couldn't.

Hopefully, y'all fearing hitting the post count limit will leave the game quieter so I have less to catch up on in the future.

Everything about these posts scream like nervous/unsure mafia here. Like, the progression of these posts...

Town!

andante twon yes?

Yup, and probably you, too!

Dann would make a great stable and moderate king.
VOTE: Enchant
Dann... is a boring choice

Town?

mastina should be King.

My turn to have paranoia of being buddied.

Hello everyone
VOTE: Dannflor

Scum?

VOTE: Dannflor
LLD is not a bad choice but I think Dannflor is easier to read

Oh I agree! LLD isn't as easy to read as Dannflor.

That said, I ain't voting Dannflor here.

The vt has arrived

That's def plausible.

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we should not be confined to the three choices that mastina proposed. we should also focus on electing someone we already think is town rather than someone who is "easy to read". it seems to me that the "execution" mechanic is net neutral in town hands but potentially scumsiding in scum hands. assuming the king isn't a gamethrower, it's more important that town hold it. also a townie town king would potentially make it easier to determine whether there's scum in the kingsguard.

My priority is town > has good reads > has the ability to convince people.

But on page one, I wouldn't know who that would be, so selecting the players who are best at those three traits generically from past experience seemed like a good place to start.

Posts 59 and 64 seem like scum posts

Oh wow Dann your scumgame is

really

damn obvious.

HURT: Dannflor

[mastina]

I kind of liked mastina's post, but they're like good and shit

Wait, since when???

What up psychos! I'll read this game later, but we all know VOTE: datisi for justice.

Town.

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing
Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I think we got a candidate for first execution

Ah it does Say seven nvm

This looks like a fake progression to me.

Eh you can be town.

Hi, we haven't played together. Do you usually shitpost as town?

I don't

think

so, but I'm not sure tbh.

unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?

I do!

Mastina why did you call my opening post scum but also discuss me as a potential King target

Oh it's quite simple.

My opening post was made without reading the thread, based off of the experiences I have of players--you're

really

Dann good at a lot of aspects of being town.

And then I saw your posts and realized you're also really really bad at scum since you're basically the most obvscum to have ever obvscummed.

[mastina]

Try not to give me 30 pages to read in the meanwhile.

NARRATOR:

And so, the players decided to give Shea 30 pages to read in the meanwhile.

Datisi/GL/UNO/Dann
There is almost certaintly at least 2 scum in these 4. Just saying.

Well you've definitely got at least one!

I also gutread UNO as scum initially but later things made me think more town.

Datisi is, loosely, looking town to me (albeit not as strongly as I'd prefer; it's explicitly a weak read), so if there's a second in there, it's GL.

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

[mastina]

Btw I, explicitly, have zero faith in my ability to read Firebringer, but he

does

look town to me for what it's worth.

I didn't realize what I was voting for when I voted for enchant oh no oh no oh no

And reaffirming my townread on you.

I would like to take back my "Junko probably town" and since I have declared Datisi town, that means the 4 I don't trust are Dann/GL/Junko/UNO

There

we go! THAT list is 2/4 minimum, potentially more.

I'm so confused at how you have conclusively arrived at "Dann is town"

Tbh I wouldn't mind voting Andante queen here, honestly. She's obvtown, and her thoughts are largely aligned with my own.

Well it doesn’t say VT but right now I only have 2 tools.

Back to thinking town, here.

I fully read up, but did not feel like I retained much other then thinking this feels like town andante.

I'm still reading up, but let me say, I am thinking this is a town-Lukewarm, here.

3. just generaly chill tone, dann doesn't like playing as scum as far as I know

Dann's tone is anything but chill; it's flat as fuck. Everything he's done has been forced, but not forced in the town way. Forced in the scum way, where he is doing things that he expects to look good but aren't actually good and don't fit with what a real town-Dann would be doing.

[mastina]

When i poison king, you are first on choping block, traitors.

Reaffirming my townread btw.

@mod: v/la until Tuesday

Might

actually be scum.

Sorry, yesterday was busy, but I have read and have some town reads (andante, datisi, firebringer) and one scum read (unown). Enchant could be town?

Okay so this might be a bit of a weird take but like: while I agree with the reads, it kinda looks like scum clearing town, rather than town townreading town.

There is a performative / "showing off" tone to both of these posts that comes from scum a lot more often than not.

feel like you are putting on a show. There's a lot of like... feigned confidence here that I don't usually see townie's put into their page 3 reads. It reads like scum projecting confidence in order to see more town. 50 feels like you are giving a presentation where the thesis is that "look I am having an in depth thought process on JunkoChan" not a townie who actually suspects JunkoChan. And there's like no attempt to reach out to or sort Junko. Just very definitive declarative statements with confidence that I don't think you'd actually feel here as town.

64 is just LAMIST. Like literally, "oh look at me I'm so town I read everything because I'm uninformed." It has this anxious look at me I'm so town energy that I feel like almost all your posts contain in some way.

These posts are pretty much exactly how I'd expect scum to be playing

this game early knowing that the most important thing for them is to get town read and get into a position of literal power

Funny you say that, Dann, about how you expect scum would be playing.

'Cause literally everything you're accusing Andante of here, you're the one actually guilty of doing.

No, seriously, this is legit MY case on you, but substituting Andante in: your posts were performative and showing off. You were putting on a show with feigned confidence that

never

comes from infamously-cautious town-Dannflor. You're projecting confidence to seem more town. You're making a presentation where the thesis is "look I have in-depth thoughts on Andante", not a town player actually suspecting her. And there's no attempt to sort her. Just a scumread declared definitively with confidence. Your posts reek of LAMIST.

[mastina]

I liked GL poking Datisi. I think calling their back and forth meaningless is a really surface level read of their discussion. I think 108 where GL is trying to dig into the difference between what Datisi might believe and what Datisi might believe others to believe is a pretty insightful difference and it's one of the first solving posts in the game that I feel good about from the standpoint of "was this person trying to solve someone's alignment or just look solvy and towny"
GL is a good player and I'm not going to pretend I can't be wrong, but off the first 6 pages or so I've had the best feelings about his slot.

in general I just like his reaction to the King discussion because I don't feel he's really positioning to be in a position of power. also his reasoning for me as King is like the only reasoning for me as King I've liked so far. my pride says that I'm still a better scum player than he's assuming but I think from his perspective it makes a lot of sense

Did Andante literally call a minimum of 3/4???

'Cause I'm beginning to think she did.

You have this very anxious "NEED TO POST" energy about you here, if you're town you know you're town

Funny, that's what your posts look like to me!

n general there's like... a lack of empathy in your solving that I would expect from a town point of view

Well whadda ya know, I happen to think your posting lacks empathy which is your signature towntell, so......

HURT: Dannflor
VOTE: Andante

[mastina]

I don’t mind your strategy of selecting which players would be best suited for the role of King and voicing that view early. What I am finding a bit interesting is your insistence on having one specific player picked when you have not been able to form an opinion on their alignment.

I mean I needed to vote someone and it was literally page one. I didn't exactly have a lot to form an opinion on alignment-wise, now, did I?

So this is a much more important vote than some people are allowing for.

I trust Andante, here. I don't think she would throw with her choices.

VOTE: mastina
Hello all. Looking forward to playing a game with 5 Scum - seems a bit crazy. Let’s get ‘em.

If this is Andres not realizing he was casting a king vote, is town. (No, not for the townslip. Well, kinda for the townslip. But not really.)

HEAL: GuiltyLion

Yup, town.

i am, yeah. i'm not planning to like, try to force it through, because i think it's more hassle than it's actually worth, but i definitely wouldn't refuse it.

Alright, I'm starting to see Datisi town more strongly now!

Andante is being andante nothing to worry about here. Town

is adante just like super super polarized or something

(Dannflor is scum not realizing he picked a really fucking bad fight to pick.)

[mastina]

ma lady, king cannot execute 2 days in a row

It does make me think LLD is town btw--I don't think that a scum-LLD fakes this mistake and I don't think a scum-LLD makes it. Obviously, not locked in because LLD is LLD, she is both capable of derping it up as scum and of faking the derp as scum, but while I know she CAN legit derp and I know she CAN fake derp, I think the derp is real and from town, not from scum.

[mastina]

ma lady, king cannot execute 2 days in a row

It does make me think LLD is town btw--I don't think that a scum-LLD fakes this mistake and I don't think a scum-LLD makes it. Obviously, not locked in because LLD is LLD, she is both capable of derping it up as scum and of faking the derp as scum, but while I know she CAN legit derp and I know she CAN fake derp, I think the derp is real and from town, not from scum.

Basically, there's a difference between CAN do an action, and actually

will

do it.

In this game, I don't think LLD makes that post as scum not knowing the execute is D1 only.
In this game, I don't think LLD fakes that as a townslip.

In this game, I feel like LLD wouldn't do either as scum, so in this game, in spite of it being something which CAN come from scum, I think comes from town.

[mastina]

If you need a more indepth explination I'll write it in word form but as it stands, I am assuming you pieced it together?

Oh I think I was the one who derped.

NEVERMIND THEN.

(LLD still looks town, mind you, but nothing beyond her scumrange. I mean, nothing is beyond her scumrange, but with the lack of derp, there's nothing that makes me go "oh, I know scum-LLD can do that, but I don't think she did", at least, not yet, if that makes sense.)

[mastina]

Vote: UNOwen

This is my most confident pick for town at the moment, though I suspect they would struggle to be king.

I am confused by this pick.

And I'm not sure what it means for LLD's alignment tbh. A bit ambivalent, but I

think

it's slight more likely to be from a town-LLD? It feels like an "out-there" take, but one a scum-LLD wouldn't make.

Basically, is the baffling vote town or scum, and I think it's at least slightly +town?

Why aren't you explaining and trying to convince others of your UNOwen read

I am.
Why are you asking looping rhetorical questions that are specifically worded in ways to try and lead assumptions to players who read them?
You haven't asked me a single question yet about why I believe what I believe, instead you asked me two questions to try to pin me down to something and then followed up with a trap of "well if you believe that, why aren't you pushing it?"
This is why I don't trust you.

For the record I kinda want to vote LLD since I think that regardless of her alignment she'd execute Dann, but just in case she's scum and just in case she wouldn't, I'm sticking with Andante.

(She's totally right on Dann btw.)

An exercise left to the reader, I think.

(Because he's scum.)

I don't like the way you're approaching this conversation
I don't trust how you're presenting

Funny, because that's me, with your approach!

[mastina]

Oh shit... I have not been reading anything above the vote count, assuming it was all flavor. I see now that the PRs are going there

Same. I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't mentioned it, honestly.

Baltar is active, and in this position.

(For the record, I've thought Baltar's content was town, but I admit I've zero recent experience with him at all. So like. I might trust LLD in that read if it holds.)

(I should mention that while LLD I'm not getting as locktowned, I AM locktowning Andres from this discussion.)

Andres might be town?

Oh definitely. I prefer Andante over Andres, but he's at about her levels of town to me.

This is a good andante post. I agree with most of what she's saying about the tone and vibes of these posts.

+1.

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

this is frustrating

This isn't Dannflor-as-town-frustration.

I've seen Dannflor's frustration when he's town.

And this is just a flat statement. It doesn't have the same sincerity and genuineness that a real town-Dannflor has. He's basically just phoning it in.

[mastina]

It's... either Shea just read what I expected and is snowing me hard or he's the most town person in the game RN and it's hard for me to see others not seeing it?

Okay so like, full disclosure, I'm kinda losing brainpower reading right now. Work left me a lot more tired today than I thought apparently. (Wednesday is my last work day so I have the entirety of tomorrow evening technically free, but between the paranormal detour and the high likelihood tomorrow is like today, it's most likely that the best days for me will be Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday.)

But actually, while that's making catching up nightmarish it's also making me think things I normally don't? What's that called again? Might be a plurality thing, it was a different voice than normal or maybe it's a normal thing, but: I'm second-guessing the voice and my logical side is screaming she was wrong, but there was something that pinged me strongly from this as being scum.

I need to figure out how to get coherent thoughts, right now I'm like...flipping on most.

Uhhh, I guess I can give the reads I'm

not

flipping on:

LOCKTOWN:
{Andante, Andresvmp}

TOWN:
{Lukewarm}
{Dwlee99, Enchant}

LEAN TOWN:
{Datisi}

SCUM:
{Dannflor}


The rest I either have no read on or my read is shifting on a lot right now.

[mastina]

isn't this how mastina always plays lmao

Actually, no, I normally can engage in real time, too.
I'm just,
1: too busy tonight (I've got less than 3 hours for everything I need to do tonight, including other things onsite),
2: too tired tonight,
3: too lacking in energy to do it tonight.
(Real time interactions, especially real time interactions while I am also catching up, burn me up. No, literally. My body heats up. I genuinely get HOT from it. Literally become

feverish

from posting catchups simultaneous to reading in real time. And sometimes I end up getting nested catchups, where I am catching up on the thread, respond to a current post that takes time, and then have more in that time, but also more made after that, where I need to catch up in literally three different spots at once. Sometimes, I can do that. Right now, tonight--nope, fuck that. I'm sorry, I won't be doing it indefinitely, but

right now

, I can't engage in real time. Tomorrow, maybe. Thursday, definitely. But right NOW, I just can't.)

I swear to god if I am subjected to mastina taking her patented strategy of "constantly catching up" and "responding to things that happened 5 days ago in giant wall posts" for the whole game I am going to throw a fucking temper tantrum. So please do not do that or I will do whatever is in my power to get you eliminated regardless of either of our alignments.

Maybe don't post 30 pages worth of posts in a game I was expecting to be slow-paced thanks to the post restriction,
Less than 48 hours into the gameday,
When I am beginning my work week and have to go to bed at the hours I normally would prefer to be playing at.
(I am currently working the morning shift, requiring me to get up at 3:30 am on Mondays Tuesdays Wednesdays. Which means I need to go to bed before 9:30 pm on Sundays, Mondays, and Tuesdays. I'm always gonna fall behind on those three days, but I do promise that once I am caught up and once it is Wednesday/Thursday/Friday/Saturday/maybe-Sunday, I will be actively engaging in real time more. But like--y'all did the worst possible things during the worst possible time for me to NOT be in constant catchup mode. You have only yourselves to blame.)

I am at [ Junko,] town

I really don't get why people are townreading Junko.

Like.

I'm reading them explain their townreads.

But I'm like.

I don't get why people are townreading Junko.

I don't see it.

I don't like Rhae's "I hate mountainous" 33, it's both presumptuous and a pre-emptive excuse that's dressed up to look a lot more towny than ProfessorDrapion's was. which is why I'm semi-inclined to believe Drapion throwing a fit whereas Rhae seems more self conscious about shitposting
I think 58 is mildly LAMIST and it feels out of touch with the actual conversation that was happening with Junko
idk Rhae gives me the vibe of just Posting to Post more than anyone else in this game. that might be more personality indicative than alignment indicative but idk who Rhae is to verify that.
I think the fact that she is trying to vibe as shit poster but also seems to have this underlying anxiety about how he is being read about sums up my uneasiness with that slot

Yeah Dannflor is scum and he's managed to talk me into a Rhae townread.
I wasn't liking Rhae's buddying up to me (I know who she is, and I know she likes to play with me, but the strong push of me as town from the getgo before I've towned it up at all gave me pause, as well as her posts not containing the towntells I was expecting), but Dannflor has managed to talk me into her being town because seeing him push it has made me realize Rhae isn't actually scum for those things.

Basically, his perspective tells me that Rhae is town and my perspective wasn't right when it had Rhae as suspect, if that makes sense.

It both makes Rhae town, and Dann scum, but not because of Dann pushing Rhae as scum, but rather because he helped put her under a different lens allowing me to view her from a different angle and from that different angle I saw her town and Dann is always scum.

[mastina]

(Real time interactions, especially real time interactions while I am also catching up, burn me up. No, literally. My body heats up. I genuinely get HOT from it. Literally become

feverish

from posting catchups simultaneous to reading in real time. And sometimes I end up getting nested catchups, where I am catching up on the thread, respond to a current post that takes time, and then have more in that time, but also more made after that, where I need to catch up in literally three different spots at once.)

(Btw side-note, but this is also why I really fucking need a break from being mastina. That pattern is literally destroying my life. But people keep inviting me to play their games, and I don't know how to say no to a game invite. I'm getting physically, mentally, and emotionally stressed, overwhelmed, exhausted, and it genuinely is destroying my life.

When I say I get heated, I mean my skin becomes

hot to the touch

. From playing MAFIA. It's literally so impactful on my life that my SKIN becomes HOT. When I say I become feverish, that's

not hyperbole

. I, quite literally, become HOT from playing mafia. I overheat. I burn up. I literally roast from it. Physically, and mentally, and emotionally.

I need a break, but I am too stupid to let myself have one. Every time, I keep telling myself, "okay, I've been very unhealthy in mafia games lately, this time I'll have a better balance", but I've actually been getting

worse

. And I can't do that right now. I genuinely can't. Not right now. After I saw the game had a posting restriction, I thought it'd be more chill. That I could afford to take a break. But clearly, I can't. I see y'all posting right now. I'm catching up faster than you're posting, but only

barely

. And with how tired I am I might not finish tonight. Which means I legit might not be able to tonight, which will make tomorrow worse. I AM trying tho. Both to be healthier, and also, to give y'all the engagement you deserve. But like--don't fucking pretend those two things don't conflict. I'm trying to balance them.)

I will forever hold this game as proof she is competent scumhunter
She isn't the best, that's true, but she is still competent in her own right.

For the record, I believe that my style back then was more accurate so I was a better player back then. My "push hard, never give up on pushing" style (slowly moving out of it because again, that's more of the mastina ideal and I am burned out on being mastina, I just want a fucking break from living up to that standard because it is

exhausting

) I believe produces more town wins, and it is easier for me to do casually, and it is more fun, and it raises engagement more.

But my current playstyle, in spite of being more obvtown and all of those things, is also less accurate than my old style that I had back then. Since I'm burning out on being mastina I was thinking of maybe reviving the old style a la Steven Universe 2, but like. The current-me isn't as accurate as I was back then, but wins more games than back then; the current me, however, is taking too much of my energy so I wanna return to the older "accurate" style rather than the "push regardless" style back then.

I legit don't think I can as long as I'm playing on mastina tho. Every time I try to break away from being mastina, I end up doubling down and become even more of the mastina ideal. (Ah well. I'm here now. Gotta play regardless.)

why do you want mastina to be king, rhae?

Because she's Rhae. Her making the vote is just her being her, with me in the game.

It tracks with her mindset as a mafia player and what I know about her, her worldviews, perspectives, etc.

I wasn't sure of her alignment from it and thought she was buddying up to me, but I now think that she was doing it as town and legit thought I was a good pick.

ah yes, scumtisi townreading vp baltar, a strategy widely known to have only the effect of him getting pocketed and never resulting in that blowing up in scumtisi's face, very good

Can I just say that half of Datisi's posts make me wanna locktown him (not this half, this is the

other

half), and half of his posts like this one make me go "noooooooo, don't do that"?

I still

lean

town overall, the overall narrative of Datisi seems town and he has more good posts than bad, but like. He does have pinging posts like this.

its a big game. u don't need to have it all with u to do what u want

Take it with a grain of salt because Firebringer is Firebringer and I am mastina, but like: I do townread this.

I know I can't read Firebringer.

But I am townreading Firebringer.

so what exactly is wrong with the fact that were hold mutual respect for each other's play? The fact that you don't? At the risk of sounding rude, piss on that.

Alright so Rhae CAN fake this as scum, but I really don't think she IS, so I'm pretty damn confident she's town, here. Like, not the locktown Andante and Andres are, but legit just below them.

[mastina]

Btw since you're bringing that video up I should point out long-standing gripes I have with it:
Two of the games given involved games I replaced out of. (I was replaced out of the mollie hydra game so I was not a player at the time of my elimination; I never made a single post in the Metal Sonic hydra game.) Games I replaced out of should NOT count as games because no fucking duh. The site rules say as much these days.
And the Kingdom Hearts game actually

proved

my point, not disproving it, as I was the last scum on the day before lylo, demonstrating that what I was saying was actually true for that game. (If I recall correctly, the post said that I usually don't go down early as scum--and Kingdom Hearts was an example which proved that I did not go down early as scum.)

That having been said

, while the video has factual inaccuracies in it, the message which at the time wasn't very accurate, has since become almost always true.

At the time the video was made, scumastina almost never went down early. She was almost always around at or near endgame. In that era I had countless strong performances like XP Mafia, Star Wars Rogue One, Encore Mafia, and so on and so forth, where, yes, I did in fact go deep, and often win.

But hilariously enough, shortly after that video was made, scumastina began to go down early

every single game

. I went on something like a

three year streak

of being eliminated as scum early and often. I could not scum, at all. I legit couldn't survive. Warehouse 13, DEFCON 5, Animals UPick, and half a dozen other scumgames (Skyrim, that one Jingle micro, etc.), I died early, and it wasn't until this year that I had a scumgame where I didn't. So like. The video in spite of its factual inaccuracies is

more

accurate now than ever before.

Meaning, I can't really complain at its usage. It wasn't true at the time and has factual inaccuracies within, but it's true now so is more apt than ever before and I'll never argue otherwise.

How you know she not mafia.

(I mean, Rhaenya said she knows I can contribute to the town wincon, that doesn't inherently mean I am town because as scum I bus and make pro-town mechanics choices so she is right regardless of my alignment; I am going to help the town wincon. )

I am pretty sure I can make it so mastina does not get elected king in this game pretty easily.

No need, I don't want the job! My reads are too shit to be trusted with a vig.

nah, Mastina aint getting within 10 feet of king.

The fact that the king effectively gets a vig is proof enough of that.

My strength is in pushing people, not in executing them; a vig is absolutely the absolute fucking worst role to give to me.
If I needed to use it to conftown myself, I would, but the vig this game doesn't do that (well, unless I shot scum obv), so like: I shouldn't be king.

I want a king that posts in the thread in real time for one thing, and not one who will fall behind and then make wall catchup posts talking about things that happened a week ago while refusing to interact with anything going on in the thread at the time.
That's been my experience with mastina the last 2 or 3 times I've played with her and so far its looking like this game is the same

Genuinely baffled by this btw because I legit don't do that in most of my games. I actually DO interact in real time most of the time.

I can't

right now

, but like...I've interacted in real time in literally every game I've had this year. Pokemon Large, CONTROL, Triplicate, Subreddit, UPick a Normal, Ginggie's UPick, NQN II, Datisi's Cafe...literally every single one of those, I was interacting in real time.

I will be this game, later this week, but like. It's genuinely baffling that you see that as the norm. It

used

to be. It WAS the norm. But it hasn't been the norm for literally over a year at least. In the last year if not longer, real time has been the norm. (The mastina philosophy of pushing hard is more effective if done in real time. Like, I get better results when I engage in real time, so...I do.)

That's her town trait. I thought we were looking for a town player to crown, not necessarily a likeable one.

I mean, I am in fact town, but like: anyone (outside of you) saying that I am town is probably lying their asses off.

I very much have

not

towned it up, yet.

Like--I know me. I know my meta. I know how I look. And I know that to ME, I don't look town, yet. To ME, I know I'm not looking town, yet. And if I'm not looking town to ME, that means there's no way in hell I should be looking town to other people. I'll show my towniness off later this week when I can engage in real time, but I very much am not town

yet

.

That said, I'm also not scum so scumreads on me are also lying their asses of. If their read on me isn't "null", then they're probably bullshitting because ain't no way they actually think I'm an alignment from what I've given.

VOTE: Datisi

are you voting for me just because you know i'm gonna make you master of coin or whatever other title you want

Alright 527 + this = more comfortable with Datisi town.

That's some of the most unhinged posting I've ever seen in almost 20 years on this site.

Maybe so, but it hard-spews Rhaenya as town, here. Now I actually

am

putting her on the same town tier as Andante and Andresvmp.

She's never scum here, ever.

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

[mastina]

yo, mastina, you wanna talk game instead of catchuping forever, how about now?

I feel bad for saying no to this.

But I am going to have to say no to this.

I don't have the energy to do it right now.

I promise I will!

Just not tonight.

Catching up not in real time is better than doing nothing.

Real-time interactions is better than catching up, yeah, but like.
Real-time > catching up > nothing.

I can't handle real-time right now (maybe tomorrow, if not then then def Thursday), so the options are catching up or doing nothing.

I'd prefer not to do nothing, thankyouverymuch.

So I'm unfortunately gonna have to decline your offer.

(I will say tho that I'm seeing

some

of the new content. I'm responding to your post, for instance. Some, not all. About 40-80%, I'm seeing. I just don't have the energy to respond to it right now. I'll get to it tho.)

[mastina]

Also, here is news for you. You'll have to put up with mastina's playstyle whether she is made King or not. Shocking, ain't it?

I mean, technically, whoever is made King can decide not to put up with my playstyle--it'd just be tremendously stupid of them to do so.

Thestatusquo has been stabbed in the back by JJaime Lannister for thinking he knows better than us peasants.

Don't you group us together. I have no fucking clue what you've been smoking these past 2 pages.

Okay back to thinking LLD-town. (I don't know why, this post shouldn't really do anything. But like. I just went "oh LLD town" to it, so...)

VOTE: TSQ
I'll keep my vote here if You promise me to execute Rhae

I really, REALLY don't understand why people are seeing Junko as town.

This is gonna feel like karmic irony but I really feel like people are doing to Junko,
What I normally do to people.

That is to say, locking in an early read on them off of one thing, and then, never bothering to reassess.

I just don't see Junko town here, at all, and everyone seeing that is just...

...What are you seeing.

I've read up

Holy shit GuiltyLion really

is

scum.

It genuinely is Dannflor + GuiltyLion.

yall are like posting just to post at this rate… so anyways, 15 pages later… I think Dann would be a good king, I was loving his posts and he seems to be playing this game very logically/reasonably so yeah. DANN FOR KING!!!
VOTE: Dann

Andante no, please stay on target. <3

GL is coming for my head cause I called him maf

Think that through; who would be scum with GL?

It's literally Dann+GL.

[mastina]

Though you did sound like an arrogant prick in how you described your own Scum play to be fair hahaha

I mean at the time I genuinely had a lot to be proud of. I unironically didn't need to be arrogant, because my results backed it up.

That having been said

, I was scum in the game the video was made, and that meant I was deliberately exaggerating things. Which meant me being an arrogant prick was my attempt to play to my wincon. (Mind you, didn't work, but the tone/words/etc. were deliberately selected to be exactly that, an arrogant prick. I wasn't trying to be not one, I was trying to deliberately be one, and I succeeded. Didn't help, but I did what I set out to do.)

[mastina]

Though you did sound like an arrogant prick in how you described your own Scum play to be fair hahaha

I mean at the time I genuinely had a lot to be proud of. I unironically didn't need to be arrogant, because my results backed it up.

That having been said

, I was scum in the game the video was made, and that meant I was deliberately exaggerating things. Which meant me being an arrogant prick was my attempt to play to my wincon. (Mind you, didn't work, but the tone/words/etc. were deliberately selected to be exactly that, an arrogant prick. I wasn't trying to be not one, I was trying to deliberately be one, and I succeeded. Didn't help, but I did what I set out to do.)

...I'M BEING BAITED INTO REAL-TIME INTERACTIONS BY PEOPLE SAYING THINGS THAT INVOKE MY NARCISSISTIC EGO INTO WANTING TO RESPOND.

I NEED TO FUCKING EAT GODDAMMIT I LITERALLY CAN'T DO THIS

[mastina]

Because I genuinely think that mastina can lead us well if she is town.

I appreciate the vote (literally) of confidence in me, but I don't think I can do that. <3

My ability to be accurate is based off of a combination of {playerlist, real life, luck}. I have one of the worst playerlists for me to read, one of the worst rl situations right now to be accurate, and shit luck in general.

It'd be better in the hands of someone else.

I still intend to give my thoughts, but I literally cannot lead this game.

---

Genuine question btw; has Firebringer ever done anything like 656 as scum?

No, seriously; I want to know.

It doesn't look faked, and if he's never done it before as scum, then he's probably town.



Improperly done, but current loose/rough readslist:

LOCKTOWN:
{Rhaenyra, Andresvmb, Andante}

TOWN:
{Lukewarm, Datisi}
{Dwlee99, Enchant}
{Firebringer}

MAYBE TOWN:
{Unowen, Charloux}
{ProfessorDrapion} (

might

deserve to be up with the other two?)

PLACING:
{Thestatusquo} (I honestly don't know, I kinda want to trust the townreads there but I'm having issues really getting a read of my own) {Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)


???
{Titus, PenguinPower}

{Bellaphant}

LEAN SCUM:
{Junkochan}

PLACING BUT LEAN SCUM:
{VP Baltar}

SCUM:
{GuiltyLion}
{Dannflor}

[mastina]

I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix

Oh, certainly!

But I also think that the push against Andante comes from scum, too.

"but mastina, scumbuddies can talk to each other".

That doesn't mean they're gonna be uniform and share details about a specific player. You can argue that's optimal play, that don't mean they'll actually do it. Which is to say, no, I don't think the ideas of "there are scum who TMI defended Andante" is contradictory with the ideas of you and GL being scum who didn't know better than to push Andante. Scum don't have that perfect a communication link. And even if they

did

, there are tangible reasons to fake not having it.

So like, I agree with you that there's scum in the TMI defenders of Andante--but still think that you and GL pushing there is scum.

Can you (and any other Andante town readers who want to jump in) give me a summary of why this is specifically a town!Andante game? Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?

Yup, GuiltyLion is scum. (This whole post is scum tbh.)

[mastina]

I think she's scum using mastina as a shield.

I thought about that.

It was possible at the beginning of the game!

Not anymore. This is her as town, period. End of discussion.

You on the other hand, are just *static*. Which is in of itself alarming.

I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix

I had this thought with Bellaphant specifically

And you didn't decide to push it...why?

Tbh kinda looks like you just saw my name and decided to pick it out of a hat.

Also true, but I kinda think it means you're scum with GL tbh.

[mastina]

I can't wait for 3 days and 20 pages from now when we'll get to read Mastina's reaction to Rhaenyra's campaign on her behalf

(On that note I legit am proud of myself, 40 pages in one day is a lot more than I normally can do.)

she seems like someone who'd really think out the people she nominates

Nooooooooo. I don't think, I just do. If I thought I'd be a smarter player than I am.

I'm talking about not being able to talk to her in real time

Tomorrow! (I hope.)

If you say things I feel are worth engaging in.

Spoiler alert: She'll think it towny. Chaotically towny, to be sure, but still towny.

Yup!

I don't currently really believe her read on me but I didn't really believe some of her pushes in Datisi's Cafe until later either

Almost had a visceral reaction to this before I realized it was Dannflor trying to bait exactly that out of me. Suffice to say: Dannflor knows I am town here and that my read on him is right.

Oh wow Dann your scumgame is really damn obvious.

I have hard time believing you truly scum read me based off that post

It was that entire series of posts.

Your RVS post looked like scum, and then you made an entire series of posts that hit every alarm bell I had.

[mastina]

even assuming town!Andante, giving a townread on her there is super boring and safe, how does that one read in particular lead to town!Lukewarm with any confidence?

It didn't, I cut out a lot of the context and don't include it when writing my conclusions. Instead of quoting five posts and the entirety of them, I quote one snippet of one post to cut down on the total length of what I am quoting.

It was everything Lukewarm was saying there that was town.

Mastina, when you are caught up, I wanna discuss reads with you, cause thus far no one has really cared for any of my reads except what I think of them, this is gonna get dangerous though... so dangerous.. cause some of these reads I make all rely on certain connections I see between people, so like, me sitting here now, seeing that you definitely agree with that pool of 4 being sus... has me thinking back...(cause that pool has shifted a bit now...) and I'm just sitting here like, Well, UNO did go silent after I started pushing there.... UNO was one of the first to call me town/vote me king, but now won't mention my name with king lol ahhhh ok, soo you're catching up, I need to calm down, I'm busy tomorrow, I'll aim for Thursday-ish with my list of reads/reasons and I'd LOVE your feedback on them! cause the only feedback I'll get from the rest of these guys is "your read on me makes no sense!!"

I def can't do it now but Thursdayish is perfect for me!

'Everyone, my word is Gospel and anyone who disagrees with my opinions even slightly is scum or stupid!'
- 90% of players in this game

In their defense: I would be among them normally.

Like, that's legit the ideal of mastina. Literally my brand is built on absolute conviction that I am right.

It's just that I don't have the energy to be mastina right now and am trying to move away from that.

I still wanna say my word is gospel on Dannflor being scum and anyone who disagrees is stupid tho.

and I feel like you already witnessed that in Datisi's Cafe a fair bit

I sure did, and this ain't nothing like Datisi's Cafe.

also like, your read seems a little more believable now, but it seems to have come about based on posts after your initial scum read on me

I mean, explicitly so, yes!

Your RVS post reeked of scum, but like--it was an RVS post. It could've been wrong. I thought it scum, but it wasn't guaranteed to be right.

...And then you made non-RVS posts and the "holy shit he actually

is

scum!" hit.

[mastina]

I literally did not say anything about her alignment

Okay but like, now I've given a lot of thoughts and many of them in real time.

You

should

have thoughts to say there by now.

Maybe not confident alignment thoughts, but things you think about me.

You've been actively posting during my catchup, and reading, and seeing me closer and closer to caught up. You've given commentary on my posts, but no

thoughts

on them.

So.

What do you think?

[mastina]

Alright so the good news and the bad news;

The bad news is, I'm behind again and need to catch up.

The good news is,

this

time I can also interact in real time, and I'm catching up now!

I think you're likely town. I still don't want you to be king. I have some paranoia about how positively you interacted/commented specifically rhea and andante but I'll sort out those feelings later.

To be honest, I'm having a hard time locking Shea down but I

think

that this is town. It randomly feels like it has nuance in a way a scum read wouldn't have, but if you asked me to point out what about it is so, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I realize that TSQ is an incredibly veteran player with a good scumgame, but something about the thought process makes me think "this is a genuine nuanced thought", and not scum faking a thought.

@mastina I want to trust your reads, but you have 2 Scum when we know there’s 5. So you have way too many TRs.

Sure, but:

MAYBE TOWN:
{Unowen, Charloux}
{ProfessorDrapion} (

might

deserve to be up with the other two?)

PLACING:
{Thestatusquo} (I honestly don't know, I kinda want to trust the townreads there but I'm having issues really getting a read of my own) {Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)


???
{Titus, PenguinPower}

{Bellaphant}

LEAN SCUM:
{Junkochan}

PLACING BUT LEAN SCUM:
{VP Baltar}

SCUM:
{GuiltyLion}
{Dannflor}

I have four names south of null--VP Baltar is looking more and more scum to me.

I still don't see why people think Junkochan is town, since every post looks like scum to me.

I have three players who I haven't developed any solid read on but lean scum on Bellaphant.

I have two players I was working on placing (tho I lean Shea town now).

My 'maybe town' are weak.

So like.

I don't have too few scum.

I honestly have too many who could be scum.

I need more strong townreads; I'm content with my scumreads.
That's doubly so given the King and Council mechanics, because having a townbloc that has no scum within fill all the positions would legit just win the town the game. I'm fine with my scum pool not containing as many confident scum as there are in the game, it is still a scum pool of an acceptable size. I DO need to get a better townbloc going tho.

[mastina]

I’m asking them to react to my post and tell me why I should have Enchant Town. Why I shouldn’t trust VPB when I’ve just switched my vote to them. Where do they think their blind spots might be.

Enchant is transparently and self-evidently in his town meta. The vibes he is producing but with just the right mixture of subtle reads are promising for him being town.

My blind spots are anyone south of locktown on my readslist. (Okay that said: probably should move Lukewarm up to locktown.) Which is literally sixteen of the players in the game, although that said, I maintain my confidence in my townreads being town, with the exception of Firebringer (because I can't read him worth shit).
So like (including Firebringer), that's 13 players I have as blindspots.

That said I AM quite confident on Dann being scum, so like.
Closer to 12.5.

(Yes that's a lot. There's a reason I said I don't expect to have good read accuracy this game, this playerlist doesn't have many names that I am intimately familiar with.)

As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

Then,

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

The slimey push on Rhaenyra,

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,

And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.

If anything the thing that I like the least about mastina's catchup is the projected confidence on the dann and the GL reads. Those are two very good and solid players who to my eyes don't have a lot of obvious tells in my experience playing with them, so the confidence in the reads is I think pretty unfounded.

I have seen Dannflor as town many many times in recent history, and this ain't Dann as town. It simply isn't. Not only his his approach the polar opposite of the signature town-Dannflor I expect, but also he has displayed the very scumtells he was trying to project onto Andante, being guilty of the crime he is pretending someone else committed. That is reason for ANYONE to be scum. He was right about the things he said were scumtells being scumtells, but HE was the one displaying them.

His pushes have all been suspect, and his reads don't flow.

GuiltyLion has done nothing town and it is specifically

because

he is a good solid player that that makes him scum (same for Dann tbh), and he is showing stances that feel like scum trying to influence a game where they have a disadvantageous gamestate rather than town genuinely sorting. His stances feel like they have an agenda, rather than being ones that are made by a town player sorting.

Both are guilty of the "I am determining my read on this player and making the reasons up" mentality, with their reads' justifications being a stretch that doesn't fit.

[mastina]

so you think all three (GL, VPB, Junko) of the biggest wagons for King so far are on scum?

As a matter of fact:

Yes!

do you really think that's likely?

Since when are you using Appeal to Popularity (oh is actually called Appeal to Majority) as an argument, rather than pointing out its nature as a fallacy?

A town-GL here would know that just because the wagons have been large, does not mean the wagons are on town.


Scum have incentive to have scum as king, and because scum know who the scum are, they can influence who to vote for King disproportionately highly.

Tell me: how many of the votes on those three names,
Come from names I have in my scumpool?

It's not all of them, but it's enough of the votes that you can't deny scum being likely to have influenced those votes.

Let me ask the question then:

If being town is the most important requirement of all, why is the universal townread Andante not getting more votes?

Andante has stances that are not actually bad. She is a lot more stable than, say, Rhaenyra is, and yet, in spite of that, she is getting no traction. She is town, she has good ability to think rationally, she is not irrational, she can reason with others, be convinced to listen, she has good instincts. She is not competent enough as scum to have this play AS scum.

I can't say the same about notable scum players like VP Baltar who this very much can be the scum play of.

[mastina]

I think they shouldn't have any authority anyway as either alignment because *gestures vaguely at enchants whole gimmick*

Yes, while Enchant is probably town, he's not someone to be King.

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.

This does not look like a real thought.

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.

I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar

does

follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.

[mastina]

If there are any questions about specific posts that need commenting on feel free to ask.

For the record, I think this is Charloux as town, here.

Firebringer and Andante can be town. Tell me who to vote for king.

The player most likely to be town--like Andante the person you just said is town.

I am starting with a clean board, and will vote anyone who'll make me their Hand.

Btw,

Rhaenyra:

I do not want to be King; there's too many players here who I don't have the confidence to believe my read on them is right--but I

DO

want Andante to be king, can you help me elect her?

I’m gonna withhold comment on mastina assigning alignment to my v/la so I don’t lose it

I realize the way that looks is me saying "PP is scum for being V/LA" since I didn't actually explain the read.

But I assure you, it's not. The act itself I know to have been true. You would never fake it, and the idea of accusing someone of that would be fucking disgusting rl-human-trash. (Nobody fakes being V/LA. So if they say they are, they are. Doubting that is rl-scum levels of douchebagery.)

The read isn't scum because of V/LA, the read is potentially scum because of the way the V/LA was done. It's not the act which is alignment-indicative, it is the handling of it. Having rl events happen is, explicitly, nai. How you express those rl events having happened very much can be. (For instance, as town trying to do the best you can in spite of it; as scum just doing nothing because it's not worth focusing on a scumgame while having rl shit going on.)

That said, I'm back to thinking you're town because of the trajectory involved between deciding not to read and then reading anyway. As scum I'd expect for you to have just kept to that, but the on-the-whim decision to actually read is probably town.

This post is...not great.

Funnily enough, that's my thought on 1114!

I think if Luke is town here, he's just entirely not on the same wavelength with me at all. seems very focused on the literal reads themselves and not at all grokking that what I have issues with is all of the logic / reasoning he is expressing as to how he arrived at those reads.

Luke, I truly barely care at all what the actual strength of your actual LLD read is. What I care about is that everything you said in 657 is just not compelling or believable reasons to townread LLD,

especially

a player of her caliber, like all of what you said could easily be faked or is based on her not playing in a specific way you would expect her to as scum. and I believe someone who is uninformed and trying to earnestly solve wouldn't arrive at these reasons to call her town. It gives me a strong vibe of you

wanted

to express a townread on LLD, so you sat down and came up with things that you think

should

indicate that she's town - rather than looking at what she's actually done and figuring out how you feel about it. That's what I mean when I say your posts feel motivated or backwards-derived, all your logic gives me a vibe that it started with the conclusion and then finds arguments you can use to support that conclusion

Why is Luke scum for having a townread based on his experiences with me but you aren't for describing my quality of play and aiming to prevent anyone from being able to read me as town?

Like at what point does the paranoia about being able to see me as town become an eventful act to prevent me from taking a foothold in this game, as a scum action?

You and Luke are on two sides of the same coin, doing 2 different things with your concern and understanding of me but at least in my mind Luke is nailed down with a reasoning that checked out from our prior experience from my PoV. You are just waving in a general area and not attempting to read me at all, only by proxy of discrediting Luke have you given any alignment on me.

This is a valid point and is why GL is scum and Lukewarm is town.

[mastina]

I'm not saying the wagons are on town because they're large, I'm saying a world/gamestate view where we've just bounced between three scum candidates for king seems really unlikely to me on its face.

In a normal game (lowercase n, not capital), would you find the idea of having three wagons to eliminate bouncing between them and all being town,
In any way unlikely?

Which is to say.

If we were voting to execute a player, would the three most dominant wagons all being town on D1 in any way, shape, or form surprise you?

'Cause the answer to that is quite self-evidently, no. It is no more likely nor less likely than having scum in the wagons. All three would have town behind them, and all three are likely to have scum backing them. This is especially true because the scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town to avoid having scum be a dominant wagon. There is a reason a lot of VCA involving confirmed multiple wagons on town, is to look for the scum on each wagon.

Because ironically, scum being divided between three wagons on town rather than all piled up onto one specific town wagon,
Means that there is more pressure for there to be wagons on town. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging town fighting the town, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different town players.

Now invert that mechanic, with us inverting our preferences.

Having three wagons to empower the player bouncing between them all being scum,
Is in no way shape or form unlikely.
All three wagons would have town behind them, but also have scum backing them. The scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town to avoid having town be a dominant wagon. Scum being divided between three wagons on scum rather than piled up on one specific wagon,
Means that there is more pressure for the wagons on scum to go through. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging scum v scum nominations, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different scum players.

Now, does that mean it happened?

Well, no, obviously not!

But I'm not arguing "we have three wagons, scum are the informed minority, and therefore they can influence the game to make sure that three scum are the top wagons".

My argument is far more simply,
I have scumreads on them all,
And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.

(Gotta take a break to cuddle with a kitteh.)

[mastina]

and second because scum has no reason to play that way even if you think all three of these wagons are fundamentally scum driven.
It feels like overall your reads are foundationally based on a premise that anyone trying/succeeding to look town is scummy for that reason

The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.

Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.


And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.

Players who are naturally being town, are town.

It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.

There are other players who

might

be guilty of that sin. (LLD for instance could be.)

But you three are the only ones DEFINITELY guilty of it.

My scumreads are not all dependent on "trying to look town without being town"--JunkoChan most definitely hasn't tried to look town and yet is one of my scumreads.
My scumreads are not "people who look town are scum"--I have numerous townreads this game and, again, JunkoChan is a scumread in spite of not looking town.

My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

[mastina]

If we were voting to execute a player, would the three most dominant wagons all being town on D1 in any way, shape, or form surprise you?

... the difference here is that there are 16 town versus only 5 scums

And that doesn't change my argument at all.

It is no more likely nor less likely than having scum in the wagons. All three would have town behind them, and all three are likely to have scum backing them. This is especially true because the scum as the informed minority know who the scum are, and thus, can exert pressure onto the town.
Having three wagons to empower the player bouncing between them all being scum, Is in no way shape or form unlikely. Scum being divided between three wagons on scum rather than piled up on one specific wagon, Means that there is more pressure for the wagons on scum to go through. With scum dividing the town up, but still making wagons encouraging scum v scum nominations, the town is going to have less unity with their only coherence being different scum players.

Now, does that mean it happened? Well, no, obviously not! But I'm not arguing "we have three wagons, scum are the informed minority, and therefore they can influence the game to make sure that three scum are the top wagons".

My argument is far more simply, I have scumreads on them all, And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.

Another way of thinking about this:
There is a difference between statistical numbers in theory,
And statistical numbers in practice.

In theory, a town miller is negative utility for a town, giving a cop a false guilty.
In practice, millers just claim D1.

In theory, the mathematical odds mean that scum are less likely to be voted the majority by sheer raw statistical chance.
But in practice, the scum being the informed minority means that they can

bend the stats

. Then can artificially shift the curve. They can manipulate the odds in their favor. By sheer raw math, the scum might have not as much influence, but by virtue of their information, that counterbalances the statistical disadvantage of numbers. The scum's information has

always

been more of an advantage than the scum's smaller size. Because scum know who the scum are and who the town are, scum get to control how they influence the game.
Scum get to control the direction they try to push the town in.
Scum get to set the flow of things, or at least attempt to.

The game is not a game of pure math.
The game is a game of human psychology.

Which is where actual

real

possibilities versus probabilities come in.

Mathematically speaking from a pure statistical mathematical perspective that is just theory, yes it is more probable for town to be voted up in this game, and less possible for the wagons to all be on scum.

But from the perspective of

practice

, of reality, the scum are

actively trying to avert the statistical outcome

. If scum fail to, they literally lose the game. It's their fucking job to make sure that town aren't elected into every position of power.

So the REAL probability versus possibility is quite simply:
Which is more likely?

That the scum didn't influence the town at all, with the town having influenced the votes on town with all candidates as town...

...Or that the scum did influence the town, with the choices having at least some being pro-scum?

The latter is far more likely than the former.

And my reads support that.

[mastina]

just feels tremendously fake to me, because objectively it just

is

unlikely, and I feel like mastina

has to

understand that?

It's not objectively unlikely.

It is from a

statistical

viewpoint, a

theoretical

viewpoint, unlikely.

The two should NOT be confused.

Yes, by sheer raw statistical math, it is unlikely for three scum to be voted up.

But

the game is not sheer raw statistical math

.

And the scum's wincon this game

actively incentivizes them avoiding the statistically likely outcome

.

In this game, there's a 16:5 odds of town being elected King, and each position has a 15:5 odd of going to town.

Statistically speaking, that gives from a theory perspective a 16/21 odds of getting a town King, and a 15/20 odds of one town power role, and after that a 14/19 odds of a second town power role, and a 13/18 odds of a third town power role, and a 12/17 odds of a fourth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a fifth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a sixth town power role.

Put together, that's 81/111 chance: 73% chance of all town King+PRs.

From a statistical viewpoint, just in theory, the town has a 73% chance of that many town.

But the game isn't based on statistical theoretics.

It's a core fundamental of the NRG to keep in mind the difference between raw theory and actual practice. (Miller to a Cop as the easiest go-to example of this.)

And by

actual practice

, scum by being their informed minority are

using their information to change the odds

. They are using their status of being the informed minority to shift the chances.

Scum don't want the statistically most likely outcome in theory to happen.

Ergo, playing

from actual practice

, in the reality of the game:
Scum are going to try and look more town than normal,
And to also prevent town from looking as town as they are.

Scum want to look more town, and to make town look less credible

.

And by actual PRACTICE, the scum doing that isn't a possibility--it's a probability.

Trying to argue that there isn't a difference between statistical theory, and pragmatic reality, is scummy as fuck and if GuiltyLion were actually town he would know about this divide.

[mastina]

Also because Mastina seems a bit reticent to go into specifics of which scum are voting who and how (and why)

I'm still fucking catching up and don't fucking pretend that's not relevant--no fucking shit I don't know the specifics, I haven't read them yet!

But I have individual scumreads on all of {Dannflor, GuiltyLion, VP Baltar, JunkoChan} and I have a pretty damn good theory on what scum want to be doing this game (getting as much control early-on as possible), so when I see players acting in the way I know scum are likely to act, with those players also looking town by multiple metrics: then they are scum.

And all of this is still not countering my point!

My argument is far more simply,

I have scumreads on them all

,
And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy

.

You're trying to make this into something far more than it actually is. YOU are the one trying to make it a big deal. YOU are the one trying to argue that my stance means more than it does. YOU are the one trying to focus on the statistical odds of this, from a mathematical theoretical perspective that ignores the human aspect of the game and ignores actual practice. YOU are the one trying to focus on a specific narrative.

And that is scum.

[mastina]

only Junko would be scum on her wagon here, plus potentially whoever is our 5th member (after Dann, VPB, Junko, and GL). How would our team intentionally win over and manipulate all the other townies on this wagon when this wagon was specifically a reaction to people not liking VPB and the people pushing for him?

Are you going to try and argue that the scum's only way of influencing the votes is with their own votes?

'Cause I don't fucking think I need to explain why that is fallacious as fuck.

Scum have more tools than just their vote to influence the game.

Which MY argument accounts for.

[mastina]

@Mastina, ok, even if I grant you that we can just throw out math entirely (which we can't, but whatever), you're still completely missing the how and why. How, specifically, did we drive wagons on each of GL, VPB, Junko?

By posting what you have posted.

That's pretty fucking self-evident.

If you want details then maybe I can show them by catching up.

Your posts are more than just votes.

And don't fucking pretend that you having discredited town players has no influence on the vote--everyone thinks Andante is town, yet nobody is voting her outside of me pretty much.

And that is largely due to the narrative of "Andante is a wildcard".

Which players are pushing that narrative?

That's right!

You are!

[mastina]

all these talented townies in Datisi, TSQ, LLD, Andres just twiddling their thumbs and getting hoodwinked by the masterful deception powers of Dann and GL as we ensure JunkoChan gets wagoned by a bunch of low volume and/or meme posters without even ever arguing for it?

Not by that wording, but basically?

Yes!

I believe that the town lacks cohesion. All of those players have individually given their suspicion on the likes of {GL, Dann, VP Baltar, Junko}.
Individually, pretty much none of them think all four of those names are town.
Individually, pretty much all of them think that grouping has a scum.

And there are many players who are underperforming this game in particular. Maybe the posting restriction is playing part, rl stuff can also play a part, personal struggles in getting this specific playerlist more locked down can also play a part, and overall game activity can play a part, with them wanting more players to be active so that they can get a better view of everyone.

As they are town, as they are an individual, the only way for them to get backing is to convince another individual whose alignment they do not know, to go along with them. Which they are usually pretty good at, but not flawlessly so.

The town have

argued

for different names to be elected.

But they don't have the same influence scum have.

you completely ignore the fact that town is also trying to influence the outcome, and they far outnumber the scum team. Like town has three times the voting power

This is again theoretically true by statistics but ignores the base fundamental powers of town versus scum.

Town players do not know which other players are town.
Scum players do.

Each town player is a bloc of one. One, and only one. Because the only player whose alignment they know is their own, they have incredibly limited scope in individual power. They need to convince the players whose alignment they don't even know, to follow them in voting on a player whose alignment they don't know, and who the people they're trying to convince don't know the alignment of, when those players also don't know the alignment of the person making the argument. That's FIVE levels of unknown.
The unknown of the player being voted for by the player campaigning.
The unknown of the alignment the player doing the campaigning has.
The unknown of the alignment of the player being asked to vote.
And the interaction between those three.

Meanwhile, scum know

exactly

what the alignment of every player in that equation is. And, additionally, instead of being a bloc of one, they are a bloc of five. They know precisely which players are making which campaigns for which alignments, and have five times the collective weight of any individual town player.

You're not so fucking stupid as to not know this, GL.

Arguing that the uninformed majority just by virtue of being the majority,
Has more influence inherently off of that numeric superiority,
Is fallacious as fuck because it discards the scum's advantage of being the

informed

.

Each individual town player is an individual;
Each individual scum player is

not an individual

.

If five scum were truly synchronized together, then they effectively have 5 * 4 = 20 voices. (That is, at the highest possible peak performance of sucm, where each scum member was actively contributing to each scum member to make all 5 be at top form and making the best possible posting, then each scum would be more than the sum of their parts and be boosted by their teammates. Obviously, in reality, this is lower, but at their highest theoretical value, that's what they get.)
Whereas town are 16 * 1.

The scum have a far, FAR greater ability to influence the game by leveraging their information to influence the viewpoints of other players, and networking their own posts in the scum PT to provide constant feedback to signal boost their strength.
Not all players are created equal--do you think a town-Not_Mafia provides the same value to town voices as a town-Ellibereth does? Obviously not.
That's obviously true about scum players as well, but scum players have something town players do not. A town-Not_Mafia will always be set in value. He cannot become stronger, because he is alone.
A scum player can become more, because they are

not alone

.

[mastina]

I think "Person is town but can't be king" more liekely comes from scum who don't want town king, but can't really argue person to be scum, so they appeal to "Not competency".

My my and who would be making those kinds of arguments now, ehh???

Could it be the likes of, ohhhh, sayyy:

I think nobody's pushing for Andante because she's so unpredictable. Assuming she's town, neither town/scum want her as king because we have no idea wtf she's going to do from one post to the next.

'Cause it sure seems that way to me!

[mastina]

Trying to argue that there isn't a difference between statistical theory, and pragmatic reality,

I'm not arguing this at all, this is words you're putting into my mouth

You are by arguing that town majority = scum have less influence than town.

When that's not reflective of reality--that's reflective of theoretical truth via raw statistics, but it is NOT reflective of reality when given the lens of scum's most basic power of information, paired with their oft-overlooked secondary power of

communication

.

There was a time when daytalk was considered so strong for a scum faction

it was valued as strongly as having an extra scum member

.
That three scum with daytalk was effectively four scum without daytalk.

The ability for the

informed

to have open

communication

allows them to make a more collective push. They have a stronger collective power than any single town player to influence the game.

Because each town player is an individual, each town player lacks that collective strength.

And because each scum player is part of a team, each scum player has the collective strength of that team to back them.

Does that mean that the scum actually did?

Not necessarily.

But that circles me back to what I have consistently been saying!

My argument is far more simply,
I have scumreads on them all,

And arguing that there cannot be three scum being voted is a fallacy.

YOU are the one trying to argue that the scumreads I have are invalid by them all being majority wagons.

Meanwhile, *I* am saying I think they are scum simply by virtue of having formed reads on them!

[mastina]

Mastina, GL isn't arguing that you can't scum read 3 people who have been wagoned (I think). I believe the cliff notes is that given the nature of the how voting for king works in this game it should give you pause and maybe cause you to rethink your confidence on those scum reads, especially as a grouping.
Does that seem unreasonable to you? It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

If the reason for throwing doubt on my scumreads is a fallacy of "they are the main votes for being King, do you think that the main three votes for being King are all scum?", then yes, that is unreasonable, by virtue of being a fallacy.

My scumreads are based off of play--throwing doubt on the scumreads by using a fallacy based off of statistical theoretical odds which ignores pragmatic application in the game thread and has no influence from the way the game has played out,

Is in fact unreasonable to me.

If GL wants to argue my scumreads are unlikely from a play-based perspective he can be my guest!

But he isn't.

And that's the fucking issue.

[mastina]

Sorry, forgot that you(VP Baltar) are mafia and talked with you again, but i called out your hypocrisy.
It will not happen next time.

Enchant is town. <3

I kind of tr Andres but I don't want him as king, he can be council or something

For the record, the main reason I am voting Andante instead of Andres is because Andres said he didn't want to be King.

If he was open to the idea, fuck yes I'd vote him because he is just as town as Andante is.

But, Andante wants the King and Andres doesn't and with both equally as town, Andante is the better vote.

(Personally I believe both would do about as well in the King position, but Andres would receive less resistance. It's just that because Andres doesn't want the job, voting him as King would be a bad idea.)

Like i said to Guiltylion I don't sr Andres, just don't feel like having him as king

Why's that?

actually because of interactions with you, I don't want you near the PR's
I feel you your intent as pockety

Alright, so this post actually makes me think Junko not scum with VP Baltar.

Prior interactions were easily enough scum theater, but this one doesn't feel like it has that deliberate intent.

And... Yes. First king being town is still the most important thing in this game IMO.

Lady Lambdadelta:

If the first king being town is the MOST important thing,

What do you think about the players arguing against electing a universally-townread player in favor of less-townread players?

Players who are voting for players that

could

be town, but are not nearly as universally so?
Players who are insisting on not voting for players guaranteed to be town?

[mastina]

to me it feels obvious and indisputable.

Sure is, from a mathematical perspective reliant entirely on theory.

Sure isn't, based on actual practice accounting for the scum tools in the game versus the town's restrictions/limitations based on the weaknesses of the town that act as force dividers and the strengths of the scum that act as force multipliers.

Granted, I don't think JunkoChan is scum with VP Baltar now, anyway, so like. That means there was at least one town in there anyway. But that was a conclusion I made based off of play--not a conclusion based off of a fallacy.

[mastina]

tbh, most of this feels like GL is arguing "Because Luke is not explaining why scum!LLD would NEVER do these things, it is BAD and FAKE that luke would think that LLD is more likely to be town this game"

Which is dumb, because I don't think that there is very much that scum!LLD would NEVER do. That is not how I sort anyone, because scum can do literally anything.

*Could* scum!LLD out the numbers that outlined scum being closer to winning then anyone seemed aware of? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD suggest the popcorn plan, which takes agency away from her determining the king? Yes.
*Could* scum!LLD stick to her "I don't explain town reads" thing, even when she would want to be in a position to sway people? Yes.

I was making the argument that scum!LLd seemed Less Likely to do each of these things, and therefore her having done all of these things left me to feel like she is more likely to be town.

I have also found that people who make arguments adjacent to "unless you are arguing that someone would/could never do it as scum, you cannot call them a townread" are scum

I agree with all of this and am locktowning Lukewarm for it.

His explanation for the LLD read is also my reason for half of my townreads, loosely LLD among them.

His theory that scum are more likely to make the argument "unless you are arguing that someone would/could never do it as scum, you cannot call them a townread", is also valid in my experience, and affirms that, yes, GuiltyLion is in fact scum.

Tbh I'm beginning to be more certain of my GuiltyLion scumread than I am of the Dannflor one, but that's probably due to a lack of Dannflor posting. (I should note that the large lack of Dannflor posting is in fact suspect.)

[mastina]

which of them do you think is more likely to be town?

JunkoChan, obviously?

JunkoChan individually looks to me like scum, but:
1: Has many players defending her as town, which makes me question my read there (this is not hypocritical, I should note, as there's a difference between being influenced by the perspective of others, and arguing that the perspective of others means that something must be true. The former is a healthy thing, the latter is a fallacy);
2: Does not fit most of the established play pattern the rest of my scumreads has;
3: Has my scumread be much much weaker for much much weaker reasoning;
4: Was mostly me not seeing why they would be town.

Which, yaknow. Is also something obvious from a play-based perspective, namely that I have been quite consistent about my stances on both of them.

Do I think JunkoChan is town from this?
No, not necessarily--but it was the first thing which made me see JunkoChan as

possible

to be town, by virtue of not being scum with VP Baltar. I would be immediately suspect of her again if VP Baltar wasn't scum since it doesn't look like a town post, it looks like a "not scum with VP Baltar" post, and I'm pretty damn sure VP Baltar is scum, so...

Master of coin is actually a very powerful position because it dictates if the other positions can act or not. If you can't see the scum benefit of that, well..

Mod revealed the role in post 675 AFAIK, and fire was deliberate to be either a warden of the south or master of coin since the beginning.
I see it as a hyped town and not at all scum indicative.

It can be scum indicative if scum knew all the roles beforehand though.

Wait this is fucking huge. I want you to think about that thought for a second and think about it from a different angle--not Firebringer knowing the roles in advance, but rather, what if someone let slip that the scum knew about them in advance?

That is to say:

VP Baltar scumslipped here.

Firebringer was advocating for the position of coinmaster from the getgo--before the roles were known to the town.
VP Baltar argued that Firebringer did this as a scum action, by wanting the power of the coinmaster role for scum.
But the town didn't know the coinmaster power from the getgo.

If the scum did, then scum are more likely to argue a player wanted the position with a scum agenda, because scum have access to information the town does not have, and it affects their perspective on things.

So VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer wanted the position of coinmaster,
Is him scumslipping that scum knew about the power of coinmaster in advance.

[mastina]

does anyone have a mastina town game I can read thats fairly recent? It's been a while.

Well, the last year has been just these games, so for completed town games, you've got:

2/3rds of Triplicate*,
UPick a Normal,
Ginngie's UPick,
(These three are both the oldest and minis, so less relevant)
(*third was SK so I was basically town across the board but not pure town)

Manatee's Pokemon Large,
TFT UPick (altho I died early there and was using a gimmick for fun),
And Datisi's Cafe.

Tbh only the Datisi's Cafe game is relevant to me as I am now because the last two months have had an incredibly notable rl shift in me, due to rl stressors.
And, notably, the largest stressor--a hell week of rl shit--happened after all of that and has no completed games to show it, in spite of that one single hell week having left a huge mark on me now. (That single hell week made me want to stop playing as mastina. Just outright give up. But I can't point to any completed games because that was too recent an event, having happened during the time Datisi's Cafe had just ended. Literally the day after Datisi's Cafe ended, if I recall correctly. Which you can kinda sorta maybe see from my lack of posting in Datisi's Cafe.)

I can maybe point you to older towngames where I had similar things tho. (Finding the first post-Doubles-game I was able to play due to my game ban would probably be a good one, but I'd need to track down what that was. And, yes, that's apt; my rl shit stressors are bad enough that this is a pre-Doubles to post-Doubles shift in play.)

[mastina]

What? Master of coin was revealed in post 675. VP made that post a full 500 posts after that?

Yes, but he is arguing that Firebringer was scum for pushing for master of coin, ignoring how master of coin was revealed IN post 675, not post 0.

That's why it's a scumslip.

Town would know that it was revealed in post 675, and thus, that Firebringer pushing for it before then was not a scumslip.

Scum, if they have access to that information, wouldn't think about the 675 reveal, they'd be more likely to just think about it having been there from the getgo because they had that info from the getgo. And revealed that perspective slip by pushing the idea Firebringer pushed for master of coin from the getgo.

[mastina]

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.

Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that

. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Oh hey would you look at that!

Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!

Junkochan [7]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?

I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko!

Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have.

Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!

Y'know.

The thing I was arguing and which GuiltyLion tried to say was wrong.

[mastina]

I have limited history with her, and it was terrible. Based on that her posts right now weird me out.

(It was the experience you had with me which was terrible, that is why I am

not being that

in THIS game. It wasn't terrible just for you. I've no fucking desire to ever be that again. I was miserable, and I don't want to be miserable in literally every game I play. I needed to change, so...I did. Or, well, am trying to. Old habits die hard and the GuiltyLion exchange is risking sucking me back in.)

There is no town motivation for this post.

Yo Luke, how freaked out are you that I actually think that you are both,
-Town,
-And accurate on your reads?



(Because I actually think you are.)

Btw 1216 is pretty clearly scum trying to look town by taking stances that are surface-level pro-town but is not actually town. It's the post of a skilled scum player making efforts to be town, but not being actual town.

[mastina]

Char said scum wouldn't lock themselves into a spot like master of coin. I said, well master of coin can control the other power roles, so definitely seems to have some scum benefit.

And my point is that is still a scumslip, because the knowledge of what master of coin did was not in the game thread at the beginning of the game.
In fact,

at the beginning of the game, we didn't know there was a master of coin position.

Yet alone, that a master of coin would be a power role.
Yet alone, what that power role was.

Firebringer has been advocating for it since the very beginning--before we knew it was in the game, before we knew it was a power role, and before we knew the details of the power role.

You arguing that Firebringer did that as scum,
Is itself a scumslip because Firebringer wouldn't know as town those details;
You thinking that a scum player would,
Is itself a scumslip by being a perspective slip of what scum would know.

[mastina]

so you are telling me that my antagonic wagon was created by the guy who directly benefits from me not even having a wagon?

Again, five scum in the game, working as a team--not one.

A scum player can push something that doesn't benefit

them specifically

, if they believe it will benefit

their team

as a whole

.

VP planting the idea of a Junko wagon is almost certainly him having done just that.

[mastina]

at the beginning of the game, we didn't know there was a master of coin position.

Proof:

Also willing to vote anyone who names me the warden of south and master of coin

Search for 'master' on the first page of the game.

This is the only result.

The position master of coin wasn't mentioned by Pooky until 675.

That was the post explaining it, but search Pooky's iso. 675 was the first.

Whereas Firebringer said it from the very first page of the game.

So VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer wanted the master of coin position as scum,
Is a scumslip.

[mastina]

VPB has already said in the post ur quoting that he wasn't saying I knew what PR existed. Or that even scum knew what PR/positions existed.

He was saying scum would want a position on council period

so the townread on me for wanting master of coin doesn't make sense because scum would want the position whether they knew what it does or not.
This has been spelled out.

And I'm saying that

town didn't know there WAS a master of coin position at all

.

You weren't arguing to be on the council.

You were arguing to be master of coin.

Firebringer wasn't arguing to be on the council as the master of coin position; Firebringer was arguing to be master of coin

.

Because

town didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675

, that means that

VP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip

.

[mastina]

GL/Lukewarm
do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

Theory confirmed; the lack of renewed strength in Dann being confscum here is due to him having not posted, since when he does, it is obvious as fuck.

Tone-wise he's just flat as fuck, and perspective-wise, he's just not engaging in a way that is bridging the gaps the way a town-Dann does.

Dannflor is the definition of "town glue". He's probably the one player onsite most apt for that. Of all players onsite, he is the one I MOST think of as being a town glue when he is town.

He is not the glue this game, therefore, he is not town this game.

everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.

the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

(It's because they're scumbuddies.)

[mastina]

Because town didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675, that means that VP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip.

The master of coin is the chief financial adviser of the king and is a member of the small council in King's Landing.

Yes, you're proving my point.

My point is this:

Pooky's first mention of Master of Coin being in the game was [post]675;

there is

NO

information from Pooky before that saying the position is in the game

;

Firebringer was desiring to be Master of Coin from page one;

Firebringer had no way of knowing "master of coin" was a real position at the time

;

Firebringer could not have known that Master of Coin was an actual council position and thus

Firebringer could not have been advocating for a council position

because town didn't know what the council positions were;

The town had NO information about council positions until Pooky gave it;

For all the town knew, the council positions could have been nameless and flavorless

;

VP Baltar argued that Firebringer was arguing for Master of Coin to argue for a council position

, but per the above (the town did not know the council positions had names, and that master of coin was one of the named positions),

Firebringer wouldn't have known

;

VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer was doing something that Firebringer literally couldn't have done, reveals that

VP Baltar knew details about the roles and assumed it was a given that scum knew those things

.

And that last part is the important part:

VP Baltar assumed that scum having information was a given, when there is nothing to suggest that, ergo, VP Baltar assuming it as a given is

a perspective slip

.

[mastina]

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

alright, explain why I'm wrong then. Explain why he's scum.

I'm not even confident he is scum, but he certainly doesn't come across as so trustworthy.
You say he's hasn't expressed slimy scumreads - sure, but what are his scum reads? We're in a part of the game where scum aren't needing to wagon anyone - how is the lack of sliminess meaningful? I'd expect a scum strategy here could be to coast this part by being proactive in King electing theory to boost their own townie stakes. Steering in a pro-town direction? How? By balloting people for their opinions on Andres as king? Again this seems a fairly neutral activity in the context of VPB not expecting Andres to do much more than go with consensus. Ignoring unproductive conversations - what are you referring to here and how is that extremely townie?
My point basically is I'm not clear what sort of expectations you have for how scum would be playing this that VPB is defying such a great extent.

I can see why LLD has a vote of confidence in you being town.

(I actually think UNOwen is town here regardless of VP Baltar's alignment tbh.)

LOCKTOWN:
{Rhaenyra, Andresvmb, Andante}
{Lukewarm}

TOWN:
{UNOwen}
{Datisi}
{Dwlee99, Enchant, Firebringer, Charloux}
{PenguinPower} (almost put on same line as TSQ, but is slightly higher)
{Thestatusquo} (almost placed in maybe-town but am okay with this)

MAYBE TOWN:
{ProfessorDrapion} (might deserve to be up?)

PLACING:
{Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)

???
{Junkochan}

{Titus}

LEAN SCUM:
{Bellaphant}

SCUM:
{VP Baltar}
{GuiltyLion, Dannflor}

[mastina]

my current thinking for council picks - {Andres, VPB, Datisi, LLD, Mastina, Firebringer, TSQ}

Btw for the record--I feel that GuiltyLion's pivot away from this is actually scum-motivated.

I realize that town can change their reads on players, and there was a gap between GL posting these and me having posted more content--
But the shift in GL's stance from preferring me to be on the council to calling me as scum came after I doubled-down on him being scum.

The change in read is strategic, rather than natural.

If GuiltyLion's read on me fluidly evolved based off of a genuine shift in belief, then that'd be one thing.

But GuiltyLion's shift in read on me came from a disingenuous-as-fuck overexaggeration of a nonissue. He went from having me as town enough to be a council-choice, to saying I am scum, after I started seriously pushing him as scum.

Yet it wasn't a change of "mastina is scum because she is pushing me" (not that that'd be believable anyway), but rather, "mastina is scum for holding this stance that is statistically unlikely", when neither half of the point was true (it was not the stance I was holding, and it is not statistically unlikely).

It's a defensive change in reads, born from having me be active and pushing him.

[mastina]

her reads list makes less than 0 sense in its fabrication.

Is there any particular reads in my readslist you would like to elaborate on making no sense so I can explain them better?

'Cause my reads don't make no sense and actually have a lot in common with yours?

I literally have Luke as town, lean town on Shea, have Andres as town, leaned town on Owen, all of which you have;
I have Datisi as stronger town than you and GuiltyLion as stronger scum than you and Dann as scum since your initial reaction was the correct one, so: where's the reads that make less than zero sense?

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

[mastina]

VOTE: Junko

Okay so like.

Titus is scum, right?

You’re Scum. I’m not sure I care about interacting with you.

And Andres continues to prove why he's town.

[mastina]

- I also just don't actually like the wagon on me. I'm skeptical of all of Junko/PP/Dwlee and they all voted me very lackadaisically and barely engaged with me or my detractors when doing so. I'm not going to encourage that and I have commented multiple times that I didn't like those votes.
I don't know where you're getting an idea that I want to "encourage votes on me", frankly while I know I'd be a good choice for King I really don't want to play my game around securing that for myself and as long as I agree with the King nom then I'm fine with it not being me

Do you feel like those three have been specifically playing around you or something? I'm not clear exactly on what makes you uneasy with your own wagon
are you worried about being pocketed or do you just not want to give slots that you're skeptical on what they want?
it's possible I'm reading into what I want to see with that assumption. I just feel like you're in this very hedgy space where there seems to be this underlying desire to be King or be in a position of power but you aren't really advocating for that at all. And I don't expect you to be playing your whole game around that, I don't think you're the personality type for that at all. But I guess I would expect a little more forthrightedness from you?

For the record--this content is much much closer to the town-Dann I know, but the engagement with GuiltyLion is different from his engagement elsewhere in a way that is incredibly suspicious and I really DO think it's because they're scumbuddies putting on scum theater.

[mastina]

Hmmm, I wonder.
He's probably town, so that's good.

@LLD:

And... Yes. First king being town is still the most important thing in this game IMO.

Lady Lambdadelta:

If the first king being town is the MOST important thing,

What do you think about the players arguing against electing a universally-townread player in favor of less-townread players?

Players who are voting for players that

could

be town, but are not nearly as universally so?
Players who are insisting on not voting for players guaranteed to be town?

her reads list makes less than 0 sense in its fabrication.

Is there any particular reads in my readslist you would like to elaborate on making no sense so I can explain them better?

'Cause my reads don't make no sense and actually have a lot in common with yours?

I literally have Luke as town, lean town on Shea, have Andres as town, leaned town on Owen, all of which you have;
I have Datisi as stronger town than you and GuiltyLion as stronger scum than you and Dann as scum since your initial reaction was the correct one, so: where's the reads that make less than zero sense?

[mastina]

this was posted right after her making these huge posts about firebringer scum slipping so..

Firebringer wasn't the one who scumslipped, Firebringer was just having fun.

The one who scumslipped was VP Baltar.

Thus, Firebringer town, VP Baltar scum.

why is Drapion town? if he is the actual initial reason why my wagon is even a thing

Your wagon was first inspired by VP Baltar, not Drapion, and Drapion having given your wagon life doesn't make Drapion scum.

I feel like the scum were involved in pushing you, and I feel like 3-5 of the scum voted Shea as King, but there's more voters on the wagon than that and while scum-favored, while scum-preferred, while scum-pushed, there's town there as well.

why am I ??? ? f the above are town, literally the 2 first votes on my wagon

You're a question mark because you can't be scum with VP Baltar, you look scum, but VP Baltar looks

way, WAY

more scum.

[mastina]

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

[mastina]

Oh right I can do this now:
VOTE: VP Baltar

[mastina]

i guess i don't *know* how capable of scum she is currently, but i remember a few people having an easy read on her and saying she's not that present/aggressive as scum, and she herself saying she's not capable of playing scum that well recently? but this is something i should probably check myself and it is not a priority at the moment

I can help you there! Not Quite Normal Multiball II was, explicitly, multiball so is not the most comparable to here, but can still get some.

CONTROL was one of the big two,
And subreddit UPick was the other one.

It should be noted that both of those games were before my plurality breakthrough of realizing there's literally hundreds of us tho, and that since that rl shift, I've yet to draw scum. So I'm not really sure how scumastina would play now. Maybe the current mastina would be better than the mastina in those games, but the only way I'll know that is if I actually do draw scum.

If anyone has any suggestions for me for king whether they be mech thoughts, speculations, people you think should have roles and people who you think shouldn't, now would be the time to throw them out into the world.

Don't fucking elect basically anyone who voted you as King.

I get that not everyone who voted you is scum, but seriously, look at the players who voted you:

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan

, Unowen,

VP Baltar

, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that you think that wagon is mostly town?

It's not.

It's fairly safe to have Andres on the council; universal townread.
I'd argue Unowen town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.
I'd argue Lukewarm town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.
I'd argue Datisi town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.

But the wagon on you is scumdriven as fuck and if you're not being blind, you should fucking realize this and stay the fuck away from electing the majority of your voters.

Instead,

Junkochan [3]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, PenguinPower

Andante [3]:

mastina, Rhaenyra, Andante,

VP Baltar [2]:

Charloux, Titus

Lady Lambdadelta [1]:

Lady Lambdadelta

not voting [1]: dwlee99

I would put unwnd in--unwnd inherited the Rhaenyra slot, which means that unwnd is 100% definitely town, but unlike Rhaenyra, unwnd is more conventionally sane. There should be no reason to reject unwnd based off of the erratic behavior of his predecessor, and he is definitely town thanks to his predecessor.

I would put Firebringer in since he is definitely town.

I would put Andante in, because again: universally, she is town. You might not trust her with every position, but there should be at least *a* position for her.

Beyond that, it becomes a lot more speculative.

But, I would lock in:
{Andresvmp, Rhaenyra/unwnd, Firebringer, Andante}, with the final two picks being more open to debate.

[mastina]

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.

is Shea not universally townread? who is scumreading Shea?

Don't pretend that you don't know what I mean.

Shea was townread by most, but not to a strong degree.

When it came to the likes of players like Andres and Andante, it was "oh yeah, universally town and strongly so".

When it came to Shea it was more, "Shea is town I guess? I lean that way at least"--he was not a strong townread of anybody who was being fully honest.

Shea was not a confident townread of almost anybody--and the first criteria for King is

confidence

in the player being elected being town. Shea spectacularly failed to meet that criteria as most of the townreads there WERE "I guess town? idk", and similar.

But you are scum trying to cover up the tracks of scum so you already know this.

[mastina]

I realize people tend to skim my posts so let me reiterate this to Shea.

If anyone has any suggestions for me for king whether they be mech thoughts, speculations, people you think should have roles and people who you think shouldn't, now would be the time to throw them out into the world.

Don't fucking elect basically anyone who voted you as King.

I get that not everyone who voted you is scum, but seriously, look at the players who voted you:

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan

, Unowen,

VP Baltar

, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that you think that wagon is mostly town?

It's not.

It's fairly safe to have Andres on the council; universal townread.
I'd argue Unowen town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.
I'd argue Lukewarm town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.
I'd argue Datisi town and a good choice, albeit not as universally townread.

But the wagon on you is scumdriven as fuck and if you're not being blind, you should fucking realize this and stay the fuck away from electing the majority of your voters.

I would put unwnd in--unwnd inherited the Rhaenyra slot, which means that unwnd is 100% definitely town, but unlike Rhaenyra, unwnd is more conventionally sane. There should be no reason to reject unwnd based off of the erratic behavior of his predecessor, and he is definitely town thanks to his predecessor.

I would put Firebringer in since he is definitely town.

I would put Andante in, because again: universally, she is town. You might not trust her with every position, but there should be at least *a* position for her.

Beyond that, it becomes a lot more speculative.

But, I would lock in:
{Andresvmp, Rhaenyra/unwnd, Firebringer, Andante}, with the final two picks being more open to debate.

@Thestatusquo / TSQ / Shea:

Just making sure you see this, in particular.

[mastina]

I feel like she was a little more open to hearing what I had to say despite scum reading me. like, there was some consideration of my worldview of the game even if she ended up shutting it down.

My scumread on you in that game was largely based on your stances, and having believed your stances came from competent scum trying to make the most pro-scum decisions possible upon replacing in.

You were still making good, townie points, but your posting was all-around night and day different from your posts this game.

I owe an apology to past-town-you for having not realized what scum-you is like and how fucking obvious it is (and in hindsight, how stupid my scumread there was).

[datisi, thestatusquo, andres, unowen
[rhaenyra, vpbaltar, firebringer?, LLD]
[titus?, penguinpower, charloux, PD, enchant, adante]
[mastina, guiltylion]
[dwlee, bellaphant]

idk my thoughts are kinda haphazard

In a way a town-Dann wouldn't be, that's for sure!

[mastina]

Even if you think all 5 scum voted for him, that's still 5 other town players who also voted him. Why don't you ask Luke/Datisi/Andres about whether they were strongly townreading Shea?

Because I already know the answer there is that anyone saying they were that strongly townreading Shea is lying their asses off.

I would argue that if people weren't confident in him being King they wouldn't have voted him.

You sure would like to argue it to cover up for how scum artificially inflated the optimal nature of voting Shea.

But you already know that. As a reminder:

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

[mastina]

VOTE: dwlee

Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

There is ZERO mention of Dwlee being a scumread of VP Baltar.

Quite the opposite, VP Baltar mentioned Dwlee as town!

Even in the one scenario VP Baltar had Dwlee as possible scum, he described the scenario as by his own confession not very likely to be true.

And yet, VP Baltar voted Dwlee out of the gate in spite of ZERO mention of a scumread prior, and Dwlee got to what, L-2???

VP Baltar is scum.

[mastina]

I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan, Unowen, VP Baltar, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

There was literally a 26-post difference between VP Baltar declaring "vote Shea" and Shea being elected King, over the course of less than four hours.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.

And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.

No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.

This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree.

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

Have literally ANY of you checked VP Baltar's iso to check what he is doing compared to his established stances prior to that?

He's literally got zero trajectory between actions and in fact his later actions

are directly contradicting his earlier statements

.

VP Baltar is scum.

[mastina]

I realize people think my VP Baltar-scumslipped point is invalid and will likely use that to try and say my push on him is invalid.

So let me remind you of the reasons why he is scum even without that.

As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

Then,

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

The slimey push on Rhaenyra,

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,

And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.

This does not look like a real thought.

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.

I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar

does

follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.

Spoiler: context behind the conclusion

The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.

Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.


And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.

Players who are naturally being town, are town.

It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

All of these are valid, but the crux comes from this:

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.

Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that

. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Oh hey would you look at that!

Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!

Junkochan [7]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?

I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko! Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have. Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!

VOTE: dwlee

Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

There is ZERO mention of Dwlee being a scumread of VP Baltar.

Quite the opposite, VP Baltar mentioned Dwlee as town!

Even in the one scenario VP Baltar had Dwlee as possible scum, he described the scenario as by his own confession not very likely to be true.

And yet, VP Baltar voted Dwlee out of the gate in spite of ZERO mention of a scumread prior, and Dwlee got to what, L-2???

VP Baltar is scum.

I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan, Unowen, VP Baltar, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

There was literally a 26-post difference between VP Baltar declaring "vote Shea" and Shea being elected King, over the course of less than four hours.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.

And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.

No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.

This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree.

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

Have literally ANY of you checked VP Baltar's iso to check what he is doing compared to his established stances prior to that?

He's literally got zero trajectory between actions and in fact his later actions

are directly contradicting his earlier statements

.

VP Baltar is scum.

VP Baltar has zero trajectory in thought, with his later actions contradicting his earlier statements.

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Two instances of three pages in four hours to get a wagon going he advocates for.
And a third instance of it happening in 24 hours.

VP Baltar is scum here.

[mastina]

mastina is there a reason VPB can't just be bussing dwlee for the town cred?

Sure!

Dwlee is town here 100%, by both play and meta, and beyond that?

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar

, Datisi,

GuiltyLion

, Rhaenyra,

Dannflor

, PenguinPower,

Junkochan

, Firebringer, Unowen

VP Baltar could bus as scum, but

every single scumread of mine

(well aside from Bella and Titus I guess?) is on that wagon.

That ain't scum bussing.

That's scum voting for town.

The only vote there I believe to have a reason behind the scumread is Datisi. Literally every other vote on there, they're bullshitting if they say they have reasons to vote Dwlee.

I literally showed you the lack of trajectory from VP Baltar. Tell me, if you iso'd the players who voted Dwlee, how many of them have reasons to suspect him? Rhaenyra is the closest.

The wagon is scumdriven as fuck.

[mastina]

Hello, so I wanna say that officially, I am wayyyy back here:

(removed, this is just to show where I would be)

...But fuck that. If you want me to respond to stuff from back then, you gotta redo it 'cause I ain't wasting my very very limited time there.

Semi-officially, I am back here:

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Datisi wants to know what you're suggesting specifically with this argument.
I'm guessing the idea is that you think other members of the scum team are swinging behind VPB whenever he wants to do something.

I'll answer this to say that, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

However, that said: that's still far back, may not actually bother reading all of the 12 pages.

But like.

I see GuiltyLion wagon.
I vote.

VOTE: GuiltyLion.

I will vote any of {GuiltyLion, VP Baltar, Dannflor}.
They're all equally scum to me.

(Also I said this in the PT but I wanted to say I approve of Shea's council choices; I legit think we have an all-town council and can shut the scum out, here.)

[mastina]

concerns of Junko, very abridged version:

- I don't like the way her wagon formed in direct response to the VPB justice wagon. A bunch of nully/scummy slots came out of nowhere to give it a bunch of momentum and the timing of it in the gamestate feels like scum pushed for it
- Mastina and Junko are both scumreading each other and I find it implausible in both directions. Mastina had the whole thing where she insisted scum pushed

both

VPB and Junko wagons even though that makes no sense. Then she found a convenient reason to degrade her scumread on Junko because she doesn't look partnered with VPB. Junko paid some lip service to scum!mastina idea but it kinda gave me a vibe of being forced, there's no real urgency to sell other people on that read and it doesn't seem to have integrated into the rest of her reads at this moment (see next point)
- The big thing for me at the moment is Junko's reaction in the PT when I asked TSQ not to put her on the council. Pretty much instantly she started pushing back at me, saying she thinks I'm too good of a town player to suspect her or suspect her wagon, saying that VPB and I have a "high chance" of being scum together (which felt pretty out of the blue to me since I don't remember her scumreading me prior to that, and she even +1'd a point I made about the Dwlee wagon), Datisi and I questioned her on when specifically she started thinking VPB/GL scum together and she gave dodgy replies, we asked her why she's scumreading Mastina who has been calling for VPB/GL heads all game and in response to that she said she's townreading Mastina now, I wish I could quote directly cause it feels really fake to me in how she did it and I'm honestly a bit flummoxed TSQ doesn't seem to think it's scummy at all. The whole thing gives me a strong impression that she felt she needed to discredit me literally the instant I voiced an opinion that she shouldn't be widely townread or on the council

Ironically, this post in of itself singlehandedly makes me townread Junk.

VP Baltar is mafia, of course there's will be counterwagon.

^Just sayin'.

[mastina]

I'm here, sorta.

Big mood, is me.

I wish I could not think of mastina as town

That's the problem with you being scum, you already know my alignment so you can't fake not knowing.

[mastina]

Dann I want to hear about this one, why is mastina town

Because I'm not in the scum PT with you two.

(Dann having that townread is proof he's scum btw.)

[mastina]

I generally think that executing GuiltyLion at this point is unwise unless he's very obviously scum, which when I last checked he wasn't.

You need to check more then, because GuiltyLion has been obvscum for a good 80% of the game.

[mastina]

In what universe is VP scum when he's trying to get me to engage and being fair about it?

Glad you asked!

Why, let me share!

I realize people think my VP Baltar-scumslipped point is invalid and will likely use that to try and say my push on him is invalid.

So let me remind you of the reasons why he is scum even without that.

As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

Then,

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

The slimey push on Rhaenyra,

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,

And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.

This does not look like a real thought.

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.

I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar

does

follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.

Spoiler: context behind the conclusion

The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.

Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.


And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.

Players who are naturally being town, are town.

It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

All of these are valid, but the crux comes from this:

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.

Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that

. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Oh hey would you look at that!

Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!

Junkochan [7]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?

I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko! Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have. Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!

VOTE: dwlee

Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

There is ZERO mention of Dwlee being a scumread of VP Baltar.

Quite the opposite, VP Baltar mentioned Dwlee as town!

Even in the one scenario VP Baltar had Dwlee as possible scum, he described the scenario as by his own confession not very likely to be true.

And yet, VP Baltar voted Dwlee out of the gate in spite of ZERO mention of a scumread prior, and Dwlee got to what, L-2???

VP Baltar is scum.

I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan, Unowen, VP Baltar, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

There was literally a 26-post difference between VP Baltar declaring "vote Shea" and Shea being elected King, over the course of less than four hours.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.

And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.

No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.

This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree.

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

Have literally ANY of you checked VP Baltar's iso to check what he is doing compared to his established stances prior to that?

He's literally got zero trajectory between actions and in fact his later actions

are directly contradicting his earlier statements

.

VP Baltar is scum.

VP Baltar has zero trajectory in thought, with his later actions contradicting his earlier statements.

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Two instances of three pages in four hours to get a wagon going he advocates for.
And a third instance of it happening in 24 hours.

VP Baltar is scum here.

[mastina]

VOTE: BP Baltar

Away from home + holiday + too tired to engage + fuck engaging with mafia games they're literally not. Worth. It. (Not that that's stopped me from hard-efforting, what? My last four??? Towngames? It's a lot, and unhealthy so, but I digress),
But like.

It's always VP or GL today and Drspion wanted VP, so.

[mastina]

And Shea didn’t die which is also odd as I’d expect them to have died and flipped town and GL and VP to be hard pushing Mastina cause they are both wolves.

Another thing is that Maria also wolf read both GL and VP.

I still agree that GL and VP made really questionable choices.
Funny though if Mastina never said what they said I was actually planning to Thunderdome VP today cause of their actions towards Maria.

I did tell you that the kingsguard collectively voted to protect Shea--three of them were scum, but since it was still over 50% town, the only way Shea died is if a town lied and all scum voted to execute privately.

So, Shea couldn't have died without lying town who wanted him dead on top of the scum.

(I do have a lot to say, but like.
Just. Not worth it. I literally had my blood boil overnight, becoming feverish in my arguments. I've had that happen in four fucking towngames in a fucking row and each time, I literally said, "NEVER AGAIN.", and then did it next game anyway. I literally tried to change my playstyle this game so that I wouldn’t have it happen again and it fucking happened again because apparently I just can't quit.
And I need to take a fucking break. Mafia is literally killing me, and I just need to. Stop. So wilk say it later.)

[mastina]

(Still not here for real, am actually coughing so am likely sick and need sleep, but:
VOTE: GuiltyLion
I see GL votes, I join.)

[mastina]

Don't have energy to properly engage tonight (tbh I fell aslee paccidentally so like--need sleep) but to attempt content nway:

hmm

LLD you seem to be saying this a lot and not sharing a lot on what it means.

Has Johnny posted anything anywhere since replacing in?

technically yes but not of note--the slot is still town for its prior occupants tho.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99[/area]

VOTE: Datisi
guess I'll start here again
I don't really buy drapion's wall that I skimmed and this is still scum

Just wanted to reiterate something that those poshing Dwlee have conveniently ignored because it goes against their narrative:

If Dwlee is scum, why would they consistently be voting off of their counterwagon?

Dwlee has not once voted their direct counterwagon. Not here, not when at L-2, not ever. Dwlee has been largely vanity voting the entire time in spite of their life being in danger.

Why is Dwlee's posting showing zero survivalism?

'Caus I can't say the same about GL's posting,

You see, my problem with this situation is that every single playera on the Guiltylion wagon has presentes why guiltionlion's actions and overall engage with the Game could come from scum, GL has interacted with many of us and has a clear cut group of people backing him up

While Dwelee's wagon is based on him just lurking and being tunneled on Datisi

What do we learn from killing dwelee? I can't see that

So unless someone comes here with good reasons I'm not changing my vote

This is literally logic that hard-clears Dwlee.

You literally point out the issue with the Dwlee wagon:
There's no reason for Dwlee to be scum. The votes there are literally made out of hot air.
There's plenty of reason for GuiltyLion to be scum. Every vote there has their logic for why.

[mastina]

i feel like most of mastina's arguments for dwlee can be explained with "wifom" and "scum makes mistakes".

Oh I made better arguments for Dwlee being town than that, but I honestly haven't had the time or energy to copy what I said in the kingsguard PT to the game thread--had I, we'd have a lot more fucking votes on GuiltyLion here because my case IS pretty damn solid and VP/GL's counters to it have been factually wrong and yet they insist that the case is wrong because they're lying their asses off.

Since I unfortunately don't have either the time or the energy for that tho, just know:
Dwlee is town by every metric. They are in their town meta and literally everything they are doing has been town.

The arguments to eliminate Dwlee are the same fallacy over and over again.

"Lots of people believed Dwlee to be scum, therefore we should eliminate Dwlee".

That don't make the people thinking Dwlee to be scum right. Especially not when half of them are scum.

Dwlee is town because they are engaging in a way that is

specifically town for them

. Their thoughts aren't on the entire playerlist, but Dwlee has still given more thoughts than they give as scum, in greater detail than they give as scum. Their stances aren't on the entire playerlist but every read Dwlee has given has had nuance to it beyond the level Dwlee can fake as scum. Dwlee's level of activity is town because Dwlee has been actively engaging.

Dwlee hasn't engaged the entire playerlist but Dwlee has still engaged plenty of the playerlist and don't fucking pretend that they haven't.

I have a really fucking high accuracy when reading Dwlee from dozens of games with them, and I

know

that this is Dwlee as town.

So the wagon on them sucks ass.

[mastina]

so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed.

Are you? My assumption is that we're going to end up executing dwlee, unless they become magically obvtown when they next have time to post.

This is exactly why GL's post is purely performative and not a genuine real post--

GuiltyLion right now is at no risk of death.

He literally has two fucking votes on him.

Two.

And he is convinced that one of those votes (me) is scum.

Dwlee meanwhile has, consistently, sat at 7.

Do you want to tell me with a straight face that--with Dwlee at 7 votes and GL at two--that GL's 2705/2707 are in any way shape or form genuine?

'Cause they're self-evidently not.

If GL were town he would fucking KNOW that he was in no real danger. (Okay, so that's not the best wording since a scum-GL would know, too.)
So why is GL

acting

like he is in danger when he knows he is not?

Because, quite simply: he is aiming to look good, without doing anything that actually IS good.

[mastina]

i feel like scum-him would be trying to much more violently push something out rather than give out these reads.

You mean like his hard-push for Dwlee that has zero actual reasoning for it, his push on me which is purely him OMGUSing, and his push on Shea because Shea had the audacity actually present reasons for why Dwlee is town?

That sure seems like violently pushing from GL to me!!!

[mastina]

Anyone got a TLDr for me?

Let me summarize a few big things.

I think dwlee is town. I know that a lot of people are pointing out things like their refusal to engage super hard with the attacks on them in a non-defensive way and their refusal to get more involved in the game via more aggressive posture on actually forming reads, and the thing is I agree that those are textbook scummy things from a motivational sense, but going even further into a motivational sense those things are likely to get you limmed, so its hard to see there being strong motivation for town or scum to play like this.

But anyway, my point is in practice when I see these things being attacked in games of mafia they're just way more likely to be town being attacked by scum than they are scum being attacked by town. These sorts of attacks just flip town far more often than they flip scum in my experience, and I'd be surprised if people had different experiences. A recent example of this was something smart in pictures, which I mentioned in the PT and datisi told me that they didn't see those parallels at all, which honestly I think is kind of odd because I think they're pretty obvious. I get that from a meta perspective dwlee isn't S_S, but I just don't get the sense that this response is something that is more likely to come from scum than town when I don't think it should come to either.

I also think (and I am barfing as I say this) that the wagonomics here give me a lot of pause. The wagon sprung up from 9 people who have frankly said not very much about it and no viable counter wagon has even started to form, even after I as the king who theoretically is universally town read tried to start one. I just...this is not how day 1 scum wagons tend to happen, and while I do think this isn't a typical day 1 it seems weird to me still.

Part of my lingering doubts on GL Datisi and VPB et al is I would expect this to give them pause, and it doesn't seem to have done so. I feel like that group of players should have enough mafia experience to see the things I'm seeing here and at least consider them, but I haven't seen much evidence of that, really. GL says that part of the way he considers scum reads is by compiling a list of town pings and then asking himself who is the least town. I do think there's probably some truth to that, which is why I asked him to point out him saying so in another game, which he did do, but I think it lacks nuance. I agree that dwlee hasn't done anything affirmatively townie, but I would expect GL to be considering context outside of the direct actions of dwlee themselves, and it makes me feel kind of squicked out that he doesn't appear to be doing that very much. Same with Datisi. Same with VPB.

I've already stated several times I'm not executing someone today unless I strongly think the person who would be otherwise limmed is town.

VOTE: charloux(MariaR slot)

I'm really not liking marias push on gl even as one of the primary GL voters.

That said, sure. VOTE: MariaR

I've been toying with the idea of just shooting you (MariaR) tbh.

Shea has threatened to execute instead of limming Dwlee today but frankly I am starting to feel Dwlee remains the best lim today and I want to make my opinion known

VOTE: Dwlee

I could stay on MariaR but idk if her entry really comes from scum, I said this in the PT but the idea that scum!Maria pushed me haphazardly, then backed down once it was clear it was going poorly and pivot to Dwlee, seems a little too sloppy to be scum to me

furtive I haven't liked up until recently but I'm kinda getting loose town vibes from his responses to pressure and engagement with me, esp 2276

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

We absolutely should lim here. TSQ has a deeply unexplained townread here and plans to use his execution if we don't move off, or so he says in the supporters thread.

If dwlee flips scum, I'm deeply concerned to say the least. E-2. More votes gogogogo

>Shea said he had a strong townread on Dwlee.
>Shea said he would ONLY execute to save a

strong townread

(per the above, this includes Dwlee).
>Shea said he was considering MariaR for the execute. (Per the above, he would only pull the trigger to save a strong townread, so while considering her, he wouldn't actually execute her needlessly.)
>GuiltyLion and VP Baltar, knowing the three above, voted Dwlee up to L-1.
>Per the above, where Shea said he'd execute to save a strong townread, and had a strong townread on Dwlee, and was considering executing MariaR, he executed MariaR to save Dwlee.

This is something that VP Baltar and GuiltyLion can't pretend isn't a logical one follows the other.

Nothing in the above is factually wrong.
They say it is, but every time they say it is, I have shown how it remains true and their 'proof' of it not being true is actually not proof at all. (I need to do that in this thread admittedly.)

More than that, let's take a look at some wagons:

I realize people think my VP Baltar-scumslipped point is invalid and will likely use that to try and say my push on him is invalid.

So let me remind you of the reasons why he is scum even without that.

As for why VP Baltar: lots of things.
Calling me a good player (he absolutely should not think I am one),

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.
You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.
Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

Okay I can see why LLD thinks Baltar is scum. This post is v easy for scum to make and doesn't look like an actual real town spread, so much as an attempt to make an actual real town spread which is too clean/neat lacking in chaos to actually be true.

Then,

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

You might be scum for this viewpoint tho.

The slimey push on Rhaenyra,

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

Their chats in the scum PT.

This looks like scum theater,
LLD's read on him with me trusting that LLD is going to have a good read there regardless of her alignment but especially as town,

And in general: nothing VP Baltar has done has looked town to me, outside of a weak random read in the rvs. Since then (and even the rvs content in hindsight given the context of the rest of the game), it has all looked like various shades of scum.

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.
I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.

This does not look like a real thought.

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

I'm pretty sure a town-VP actually tries to see this thought through, with more pushing at Shea in particular. While he can't vote Shea for elimination, it would still be possible to poke and prod at Shea to get him to actually give more nuanced thoughts--leaving just this comment with no follow-through is scum appearing to be town without actually doing something town. The whole exchange lacks purpose, but is no mere idle thought.

I get that as town not everything you do needs to have followthrough. But VP Baltar

does

follow through, in the extended exchange with Shea, yet in spite of that, this is explicitly doing nothing. It is not sorting Shea. It is not trying to get elaboration. It is just...there, for the sake of being there.

Spoiler: context behind the conclusion

The town is voting for a player to be King, largely based off of how town the player in question is.

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town.

Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, setting who gets what power roles and even if failing to become King, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role.


And by the way: saying that I am arguing "anyone trying/succeeding to look town is suspect" is disingenous as fuck.

Players who are naturally being town, are town.

It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Anyone wondering where the scum influence on voting Shea through can look no further than this, because right here, you have the main culprit behind that election.

Shea was a piss-poor selection for king. He fails the first and largest criteria for King: being universally townread.
While I

believe

Shea to be town, it was not with the conviction needed to elect him as King.
And on top of that, while I know Shea to be a competent player, he is not immune to being influenced by scum.

More than that, this argument was slimey as fuck. We had not in fact thoroughly explored the avenues in the King discussion. Shea being King was NOT something we discussed--at all. Literally at all. There was ZERO discussion about Shea. NONE. So VP Baltar was outright lying here--and y'all believed him.

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

And yet, you said nothing about the opposite position (the one GL argued against), that scum have had a ton of influence.

I wonder why you haven't mentioned that possibility at all?

Could it perhaps be...that you don't want people to realize that you are the scum influencing things?

'Cause from where I'm standing it sure as fuck looks like scum have a lot of influence!

Why didn't you engage with GL arguing basically this, that scum had no influence?
Why the focus on Datisi with this belief, rather than GL with that belief?

Could it perhaps be...because Datisi is town and GL is not???

I wonder!

All of these are valid, but the crux comes from this:

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power.

Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that

. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Oh hey would you look at that!

Proof of concept for me finding scum advocating for Junko to be King, in spite of having not voted there!

Junkochan [7]:

Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

GuiltyLion asked the fallacious-as-fuck "how could scum influence this when by your own reads they aren't voting there?", well guess what?

I found the fucking start of the push for Junko to be King, and it came from someone not voting Junko! Almost as if votes don't tell the whole story of what kinds of influence scum can have. Almost like so much as a single sentence from scum can set momentum towards an outcome they want!

VOTE: dwlee

Btw, let's see what VP Baltar had to say about Dwlee prior to this vote:

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.
Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc.
This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

There is ZERO mention of Dwlee being a scumread of VP Baltar.

Quite the opposite, VP Baltar mentioned Dwlee as town!

Even in the one scenario VP Baltar had Dwlee as possible scum, he described the scenario as by his own confession not very likely to be true.

And yet, VP Baltar voted Dwlee out of the gate in spite of ZERO mention of a scumread prior, and Dwlee got to what, L-2???

VP Baltar is scum.

I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

Thestatusquo [11]:

Bellaphant, Dannflor, GuiltyLion, Junkochan, Unowen, VP Baltar, Andresvmb, Thestatusquo, Lukewarm, Datisi, Enchant

There was literally a 26-post difference between VP Baltar declaring "vote Shea" and Shea being elected King, over the course of less than four hours.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

There is a 74-post difference between VP Baltar voting Dwlee, and Dwlee getting up to L-2.

And that was over the course of less than four hours, too.

No, seriously. Check the timestamps yourself, check the gap in time yourself.

This, from a slot that had NO STATED SCUMREAD on Dwlee prior to voting them.
And this, from someone who HE HIMSELF SAID:

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree.

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

Have literally ANY of you checked VP Baltar's iso to check what he is doing compared to his established stances prior to that?

He's literally got zero trajectory between actions and in fact his later actions

are directly contradicting his earlier statements

.

VP Baltar is scum.

VP Baltar has zero trajectory in thought, with his later actions contradicting his earlier statements.

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Two instances of three pages in four hours to get a wagon going he advocates for.
And a third instance of it happening in 24 hours.

VP Baltar is scum here.

mastina is there a reason VPB can't just be bussing dwlee for the town cred?

Sure!

Dwlee is town here 100%, by both play and meta, and beyond that?

Dwlee99 [9]:

VP Baltar

, Datisi,

GuiltyLion

, Rhaenyra,

Dannflor

, PenguinPower,

Junkochan

, Firebringer, Unowen

VP Baltar could bus as scum, but

every single scumread of mine

(well aside from Bella and Titus I guess?) is on that wagon.

That ain't scum bussing.

That's scum voting for town.

The only vote there I believe to have a reason behind the scumread is Datisi. Literally every other vote on there, they're bullshitting if they say they have reasons to vote Dwlee.

I literally showed you the lack of trajectory from VP Baltar. Tell me, if you iso'd the players who voted Dwlee, how many of them have reasons to suspect him? Rhaenyra is the closest.

The wagon is scumdriven as fuck.

I'm a bit too lazy to track down my full GL case and to do a full breakdown of the wagonomics, and also too exhausted to go into why VP Baltar and GuiltyLion's posts in the Kingsguard PT so condemn them, but basically:

VP Baltar and GuiltyLion and their cohorts have been setting the pace of the game for the majority of the game.

They almost got GuiltyLion as King.
They almost got JunkoChan as King (note that yes, JunkoChan is town but was prone to being influenced by them--a puppet King is a puppet for the scum).
They almost got VP Baltar as King.
They successfully got Shea elected as King.
They campaigned for Shea as King pretending it was something grander than it was.
They sucked up to Shea hoping to be put on Shea's council. They hoped that Shea (similar to JunkoChan) as a King would be vulnerable to being influenced, and if I felt like it, I could prove this by showing Shea's earlier council choices that included one or both of GuiltyLion/VP Baltar on it.
Then, AFTER Shea made his choice and it excluded them both, they voted up Dwlee.

They had no reason to vote Dwlee.
There has never been reasons to vote Dwlee other than "lol they low-content/effort". (Which is not a scumtell, especially not from Dwlee.)
And then they pushed the blame on Shea protecting Dwlee onto Shea, saying it was a mistake to elect Shea when

they were the ones who made it happen

.

I really wish I had the time/effort needed to properly present my case since if I did there would be zero fucking Dwlee voters and we'd have the elimination be a choice between GuiltyLion or VP Baltar.

The two are

that

scum.

[mastina]

Question: Who here TRs Dwlee? I am not asking if you scumread anyone more than Dwlee I am asking if you TR them.

I do.

There is no reason to scumread Dwlee. The reasons presented are all bullshit.
"We need to vote Dwlee for the information"
"We need to vote Dwlee to clear the gamestate situation"
"All the Dwlee voters can't all be scum, therefore wagoning Dwlee is a good thing".

"Dwlee is not posting much, therefore Dwlee scum".

Those are not real reasons.
They are lazy as shit reasons.

But if you actually read what Dwlee has

done

, it radiates town in a way only a town-Dwlee can. The way Dwlee entered into the game lighthearted and carefree, but ended up producing content, in the signature style of not too dead serious but also not too jokey: the town balance that scum can't realistically replicate longterm. They have been casual, and lowkey, but they have given effort and actual thoughts on the gamestate, most of which are good.

If you check their stances you can see a progression of thought and well-reasoned stances whenever they do pop in with content contribution and none of the players pushing Dwlee have so much as ONCE acknowledged it. (Well, Datisi has, he just disagrees with me.) None of the players have so much as once acknowledged that, actually, Dwlee HAS done shit. They're ignoring their content because their content is less visible. But they are very much making it, and the refusal to acknowledge it to wagon Dwlee up is scummy as fuck.

[mastina]

i feel like most of mastina's arguments for dwlee can be explained with "wifom" and "scum makes mistakes".

Oh I made better arguments for Dwlee being town than that, but I honestly haven't had the time or energy to copy what I said in the kingsguard PT to the game thread--had I, we'd have a lot more fucking votes on GuiltyLion here because my case IS pretty damn solid and VP/GL's counters to it have been factually wrong and yet they insist that the case is wrong because they're lying their asses off.

Since I unfortunately don't have either the time or the energy for that tho, just know:
Dwlee is town by every metric. They are in their town meta and literally everything they are doing has been town.

The arguments to eliminate Dwlee are the same fallacy over and over again.

"Lots of people believed Dwlee to be scum, therefore we should eliminate Dwlee".

That don't make the people thinking Dwlee to be scum right. Especially not when half of them are scum.

Dwlee is town because they are engaging in a way that is

specifically town for them

. Their thoughts aren't on the entire playerlist, but Dwlee has still given more thoughts than they give as scum, in greater detail than they give as scum. Their stances aren't on the entire playerlist but every read Dwlee has given has had nuance to it beyond the level Dwlee can fake as scum. Dwlee's level of activity is town because Dwlee has been actively engaging.

Dwlee hasn't engaged the entire playerlist but Dwlee has still engaged plenty of the playerlist and don't fucking pretend that they haven't.

I have a really fucking high accuracy when reading Dwlee from dozens of games with them, and I

know

that this is Dwlee as town.

So the wagon on them sucks ass.

Since this was on the bottom of last page I feel the need to bring it to this page. (I ain't hitting the post cap unless I actually DO get into the fiery rage I was in during the night and boy oh boy do I not want to fucking do that, it fucking destroys my life and is unhealthy as shit, becoming literally feverish in a game is not a good thing so like. Shouldn't be an issue unless I am dumb.)

[mastina]

Btw my last readslist, updated only slightly, would put things as this:

LOCKTOWN:
{Rhaenyra/unwnd/JohnnyFarrar, Andresvmb, Andante}
{JunkoChan/MathBlade}

TOWN:
{Dwlee99, Firebringer, Thestatusquo(TSQ/Shea))
{UNOwen}
{Datisi}
{Enchant, ProfessorDrapion}
{PenguinPower/Roden}


PLACING:
{Lady LambdaDelta}

???

{Titus}

LEAN SCUM:
{Bellaphant/furtiveglance}

SCUM:
{VP Baltar, GuiltyLion, Dannflor}

It's not

quite

as good as I want it to be, but it should give the replacements something to engage me with if they like.
The scumreads on VP Baltar, GuiltyLion, and Dannflor have all been explained.
Ditto the Rhanyrra, Andres, and Andante reads.

Beyond that tho I admit all of my reads haven't been explained as much as they arguably ought to have been so ask me about a read and I'll give the details.

[mastina]

(Also y'all can read my iso if you want, it's relatively short in amount of posts. Yes, it has a lot of walls, but those walls are

very informative

--if you wanna look at key areas in the game, my walls will help direct you to most of them to investigate them.)

[mastina]

So let me ask the Dwlee voters a crucial question:

If Dwlee is scum, who is their scumbuddies???

'Cause this is the people who have voted to eliminate Dwlee:

VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Dwlee

Nope. We do Dwlee.
VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: DW

VOTE: DW

VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

We absolutely should lim here. TSQ has a deeply unexplained townread here and plans to use his execution if we don't move off, or so he says in the supporters thread.

If dwlee flips scum, I'm deeply concerned to say the least. E-2. More votes gogogogo

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwlee

VOTE: dwelee

VOTE: Dweelee

VOTE: Dwlee99

VOTE: Dwlee99

VOTE: Dwlee

Shea has threatened to execute instead of limming Dwlee today but frankly I am starting to feel Dwlee remains the best lim today and I want to make my opinion known

VOTE: Dwlee

I could stay on MariaR but idk if her entry really comes from scum, I said this in the PT but the idea that scum!Maria pushed me haphazardly, then backed down once it was clear it was going poorly and pivot to Dwlee, seems a little too sloppy to be scum to me

furtive I haven't liked up until recently but I'm kinda getting loose town vibes from his responses to pressure and engagement with me, esp 2276

VOTE: Dwlee

Who does that leave that

hasn't

?

Rhaenyra unwnd JohnnyFarrar did.
Titus did.
PenguinPower Roden did.
Andresvmb did.
6. Andante did.
VPBaltar did.
Dannflor did.
Unowen did.
GuiltyLion did.
Firebringer did.
Datisi did.
Junkochan Mathblade did.
Bellaphant furtiveglance did.

I have not.
Shea has not.
Lady Lambdadelta has not.
ProfessorDrapion has not.
Enchant has not.

For Dwlee to be scum, it is literally

required

that

AT LEAST

one scum bussed.

And for every name in {mastina, Shea, LLD, Drapion, Enchant} you think is town, that adds to the minimum.

So let me ask you again:
If Dwlee is scum,

Then. who. are. their. scumbuddies.

You cannot make a team that doesn't involve bussing.
So who the fuck are the bussers on Dwlee.

Or, maybe--and get this, this might be a radical opinion!--maybe, just MAYBE, the fact that literally everyone except for four players has voted to eliminate Dwlee (most of them for fuckall of any reasoning) indicates that Dwlee isn't actually scum.

[mastina]

And let me further ask:

If Dwlee is scum, where is the actual counterwagons?

There has been no concentrated counterwagon to the Dwlee wagon.

There was a MariaR wagon yesterday--which fell apart.
There was a GuiltyLion wagon yesterday--which didn't manifest.
There has been ZERO coherent wagons today--meaning that there isn't a coordinated push from scum today.

So

for Dwlee to be scum, the scum must be making absolutely

ZERO

effort to save them.

Which is more likely?
That the scum have given absolutely no attempts to save their scumbuddy who if flipped would spew half the town as town and basically ensure that the town wins through PoE alone...
...Or that maybe, just maybe: Dwlee is town and scum are fine with Dwlee dieing?

Dwlee. is. town.

[mastina]

And you cannot tell me that all of those Dwlee voters look town.

Titus's vote is transparently from scum.
furtiveglance's vote is transparently from scum.
Dannflor's vote is transparently from scum.
I've extensively covered why VP Baltar and GuiltyLion are scum.

Check their votes for Dwlee and tell me they're town. I fucking dare you to.

Dwlee is town.
There is zero real reason for the wagon to be on them.

[mastina]

VOTE: Dannflor
(I realize I'm not going to get a GL or VP Baltar elimination today and even this is unlikely but like. As a reminder. Scum are guaranteed to have bussed and only a small section of players can be the scum who did.)

[mastina]

So just after my post in here...?yesterday? (Idk, when literally every method of communicating with the outside world is cut off for a long time, you kinda lose track of time), we got the ultimate wombo combo:

No cell service, presumably due to a cell tower being down. (Until an hour ago or so, it was still down; I'm phoneposting because it thankfully FINALLY came back, since it's been down since like Tuesday night or so, idk time blends when isolated.)

Snowed in, so no ability to go into an area where we can communicate. (We live a 30 minutes drive from the nearest town. No ability to drive due to too much snow = no ability to enter the civilized world AT ALL.)

And then, both our power and internet going out.

Even when one part got fixed, the others remained.
Still got no internet (tjo thankfully, have powers), so literally Ll I can do is phone posting.

I do wanna say tho, stay the fuck away from Johnny Suspicion.

Rhaenyra is town by every metric, including having been the second-hardest pusher of Dwlee. She is legic the ONLY person aside from Dariso who had a real scumread there. She was the only one pushing them outside of Dwlee. She was the only one actively CASING Dwlee.

It wasn't in the main thread because she ran out of posts, but she very much pushed Dwlee HARD--even going

against me

in doing so.
I was defending Dwlee there, Rhaenyra kept pushing Dwlee after I defended Dwlee there--which is all the proof in the world that you need that, no, Rhaenyra was NOT pocketing me.

Loathed as I am to agree with Fire, he's absolutely right in his Rhaentra defense. (Of what he said before I lost connection is what I remember it was, at least.)

[mastina]

Mastina are u making shit up.
I don't even remember rhae had a read

It was there. Very clearly.

So much snow. If you need help LMK

If I needed help I wouldn't have been able to contact you.

It was that bad.

Thankfully mostly melted, but like. Is 5 am, not gonna see much from me tonight.

come on. this is the SECOND HARDEST PUSHER of dwlee.

As a matter of fact, yes.

That says something about the strength of the push on Dwlee, now, doesn't it?

Rhaenyra was the second-hardest pusher.

And the content you see is what constitutes second-hardest.
Because literally nobody else was pushing harder than her except Datisi.

Maybe because...oh, y'know.

Dwlee had 3-4 scumbuddies bussing them?

Just a thought.

[mastina]

VOTE: LLD

I really don't have the energy/time/lucidity to explain (see also, is 5 am, I was literally thinking of going straight to bed once Starlight left my lap but figured I should post since I'm able to now), but like:

This post never comes from a town-Dann ever and I wish I could explain it to y'all now.

At least it clears up any doubts I had about LLD!

(LLD is not scum with Dann, Dann is definitely scum, soooooooooooooo...)

[mastina]

I had 0 presence on day 2 and prod dodged my way through the whole fucking day. Ascribing any intent to me yesterday is fucking impossible.

You don't think it's scummy to prod dodge through a day that was 80% likely to end in a scum yeet and then brag about how you have no associatives?

Scummy? Yes.

Actually alignment-indicative?

No.

[mastina]

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS
INTERJET YOU PIECE OF SHIT
WHY THR FUCK ARE YOUBGOING DOWN AT FIVE FORTY FIVE FUCKING RANDOMLYBAS SHIT

I KNOW THAT I NEEDED TO GO TO BE ANYWAY BUT I WANTED ITBON MY TERMS NOT FUCKINGBYOUS.

I ALREADLY LOST THREE FUCKING DAYS IF NOT MORE TO THIS SHITTH AS SNOWSNORM AND LITERALLY JUST TOLD LLDBTHST IT WAS GETTING BETTER AND THEM YOY GOTTA FUCKING PROVE ME WRONG BY DOING THIS SHITTH ASS DOWNAGE AND I AM FUCKING DICK OF YOU RUINING MY LIFE BY REMOVING MY LINKS TO MY LIFELIBES.

[mastina]

So this was the post I was working on when my internet failed.

Mastina, I was also thinking about our argument re: the odds of Junko/VPB/GL all being scum and all being the most popular wagons for King overnight.

And I remembered reading this article that you wrote a long time ago. I loved this article and I completely agree with it! I think this is an excellent mindset when playing mafia.

I'm having a really hard time squaring the mastina that wrote that article with the mastina playing this game. Again, it's basic mathematical fact that the odds of scum not only pushing three separate team members, and additionally

succeeding

at doing so, is very low. Obviously we know now that Junko was town, but we didn't know that at the time of this argument and I'm really struggling to fathom why you were so hellbent on pushing all three King candidates as scum other than an explanation where all of us were town and you wanted to derail that momentum. Please help me understand why town!mastina pushes such an improbable narrative when we have documented evidence that mastina knows that mafia needs to be played on balance of what is

probable

, not

possible

.

we can discuss this postgame

I feel like bringing it up now.

The article has always remained accurate and continues to remain accurate now.

But you're the one who is in the wrong about what's actually probable.

Not me.

To say that mathematical probability translates directly to the practice of the game just because of theoretical numbers is to be disconnected from reality. I keep on bringing it up because it doesn't cease to be relevant: a miller in theory by the mathematical statistics acts as a negative utility role that gets guiltied by a cop--but if you were to argue possibilities versus probabilities of a miller actually being negative utility in being guiltied by a cop, it would never happen, because players developed the strategy of claiming millers.

That strategy disproportionately impacts the chances, turning what was a statistical plausibility into something that will never happen--ever.

Ergo, if you insist that something that is true by mathematical statistical odds by the theory of the game, is true in the practice of the game while ignoring the human element of the game that changes the theoretical odds, you are not in fact arguing for a probability; you are arguing for a possibility, that a human did not change the expected math in any way shape or form.

Which is, simply put: not the way the game works.

Humans change the math involved.

And many of these changes are mapped out by common factors the scum have control over.

The scum have five unified voices. The scum have information. The scum have communication. The scum have teamwork.

Whereas each town player is an individual. The town has to convince other town players about the alignment of players that the town player does not themselves know. The town do not work as a team from the onset. They have to develop a team (townblocs), whereas scum are given a team from the getgo.

The power of a scum team means that the scum have a force multiplier; the power of lacking a team and being purely as an individual acts as a force divider for town players.

So, in a game with 5 scum against 16 town, it is not the town having the force of 16 players versus the force of 5. If the town and scum were equally powerful, sure--but the town and scum are not equally powerful; the scum are notably MORE powerful. And the ways the scum are more powerful are in by being a team. 5 scum is loosely equal to ~20-25 players, versus the 16 of the town. That's a huge part of why the game is in a vacuum so scumsided: the scum have the power to coordinate, which the town simply lacks.

These patterns are the human aspect of the game--but they are not unchartable just because they are human.
And that's where

actual

possibility versus probability comes in.

Possibility versus probability isn't what is likely to happen when disconnected from all other circumstances.
Possibility versus probability is what is likely to happen

after the human element

.
It is a PROBABILITY that a miller would claim.
And it is a PROBABILITY that scum can use their coordination and teamwork to set a gamestate favorable to them. (Well. Kinda. That's more situational. Bad scum comms are common enough. But in any game with reasonably competent scum that don't have strong disharmony/discord in comms, their communication is likely to help them set a more favorable gamestate. Which is why it's a probability. Bad scumteams are in my experience the exception to the norm.)

It is a probability that scum can talk to each other.
It is a probability that scum can manipulate VCA in ways they believe will be favorable.
It is a probability that scum will attempt to disrupt town coherence.
It is a probability that scum will attempt to avoid chain-scum eliminations.
It is a probability that scum will set up interactions they believe will make at least some of them look good no matter what.
It is a probability that scum will try and get the town to waste power roles.
It is a probability that scum will try and circumvent the restrictions of town power roles. (Notably in this game, that can be done in multiple ways. Being the power role in question, denying it to the town. Influencing the holder of the role and by virtue of the holder, influencing who holds it to act in sub-optimal ways. Or when all else fails, killing the PRs.)
It is a probability that scum will try and get the town to eliminate town.
It is a probability that scum will try and set up TvT fights, not wanting to extended in repeated TvS fights. (Note the word there is 'repeated'.)
It is a probability that scum will use their talk to coordinate manipulations of the gamestate.
It is a probability that scum will use their coordination to offer feedback to each other. "Hey, do this thing." "Hey, don't do this thing." "Hey, I want to make a post with x y z, can you guys give feedback?". Etc.
It is a probability that scum will be actively trying to play to their wincon, and thus, by doing so, be trying to do the above.
And it is a probability that when scum do go down, that the scum tried to position themselves in a way that would make them look good.

Do you disagree with literally any of those probabilities?

'Cause if not (and you absolutely shouldn't if being intellectually honest, since they're self-evidently true), then when you put them all together:
It is not mere possibility that scum controlled the gamestate with the King nominations--it is

probability

.

Yes, one of the King candidates is confirmed as town already. (Junko slot.)
Yes, another of the King candidates is almost certainly town. (Shea himself.)

But the nominees being town does not mean that their wagons did not get strongly pushed and influenced by the scum.

And notably, not all influence comes from being on the wagon.
I pointed out how VP Baltar influenced the Junko wagon without himself being on it.
Same principle applies across them.

The scum don't need to be on a wagon to influence the game. Shutting down other wagons like Andante for instance is a way that increases the odds of a scum-preferred candidate to go through.

Which is why,

Spoiler: (my internet failed before I could quote the post from my iso I wanted, and I don't remember which post(s) it was, but it was among these)

The King is the most important decision in the game, as it sets the entirety of the game to follow.

The King literally gets to dictate

which players in the game are power roles

--don't fucking pretend that's not a huge thing.
The King gets to dictate the first player to die--which can set the tone of the entire rest of the game.

The King basically gets to set the flow for the entire rest of the game. Don't pretend this isn't true, everyone has pretty much argued this exact point in making their King choices from the getgo. A bad King sets a bad flow of the game, and a scum King sets a

scum flow

to the game.

That sounds like incentive to make a scum(-preffered) King to me!

And, yes, that gives scum extra incentive to try and look town. Trying to look town, yet not actually being town, has always been one of the biggest scumtells in existence. (The buzzword these days is LAMIST tho I'm not particularly fond of that term.)

But in this game specifically,

there is extra reason for that tell to apply

.

Because while in a normal game the reward for looking town is simply to avoid being eliminated,
In this game, the reward for looking town is

to become the most important part of the game

, having a high chance of becoming one of the power roles and thus denying town that particular role. It is specifically

trying to force towniness

that is scum--and you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are all guilty of doing exactly that.
There are other players who

might

be guilty of that sin. (LLD for instance could be.) But you three are the only ones DEFINITELY guilty of it. My scumreads on you, Dannflor, and VP Baltar are because you are all being pro-scum while doing things that try to look town without actually being town.

There is a difference between statistical numbers in theory, And statistical numbers in practice.
In theory, a town miller is negative utility for a town, giving a cop a false guilty. In practice, millers just claim D1.

In theory, the mathematical odds mean that scum are less likely to be (in control of) the majority by sheer raw statistical chance.
But in practice, the scum being the informed minority means that they can

bend the stats

. Then can artificially shift the curve. They can manipulate the odds in their favor. By sheer raw math, the scum might have not as much influence, but by virtue of their information, that counterbalances the statistical disadvantage of numbers. The scum's information has

always

been more of an advantage than the scum's smaller size. Because scum know who the scum are and who the town are, scum get to control how they influence the game.
Scum get to control the direction they try to push the town in. Scum get to set the flow of things, or at least attempt to.

The game is not a game of pure math. The game is a game of human psychology. Which is where actual

real

possibilities versus probabilities come in. Mathematically speaking from a pure statistical mathematical perspective that is just theory, yes it is more probable for town to be voted up in this game, and less possible for the wagons to all be on scum.
But from the perspective of

practice

, of reality, the scum are

actively trying to avert the statistical outcome

. If scum fail to, they literally lose the game. It's their fucking job to make sure that town aren't elected into every position of power.
So the REAL probability versus possibility is quite simply:
Which is more likely? That the scum didn't influence the town at all, with the town having influenced the votes on town with all candidates as town...
...Or that the scum did influence the town, with the choices having at least some being pro-scum?
The latter is far more likely than the former. And my reads support that.

just feels tremendously fake to me, because objectively it just

is

unlikely, and I feel like mastina

has to

understand that?

It's not objectively unlikely. It is from a

statistical

viewpoint, a

theoretical

viewpoint, unlikely. The two should NOT be confused. Yes, by sheer raw statistical math, it is unlikely for three scum to be voted up. But

the game is not sheer raw statistical math

.
And the scum's wincon this game

actively incentivizes them avoiding the statistically likely outcome

. In this game, there's a 16:5 odds of town being elected King, and each position has a 15:5 odd of going to town.

Statistically speaking, that gives from a theory perspective a 16/21 odds of getting a town King, and a 15/20 odds of one town power role, and after that a 14/19 odds of a second town power role, and a 13/18 odds of a third town power role, and a 12/17 odds of a fourth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a fifth town power role, and a 11/16 odds of a sixth town power role.

Put together, that's 81/111 chance: 73% chance of all town King+PRs. From a statistical viewpoint, just in theory, the town has a 73% chance of that many town. But the game isn't based on statistical theoretics. It's a core fundamental of the NRG to keep in mind the difference between raw theory and actual practice. (Miller to a Cop as the easiest go-to example of this.)

And by

actual practice

, scum by being their informed minority are

using their information to change the odds

. They are using their status of being the informed minority to shift the chances.

Scum don't want the statistically most likely outcome in theory to happen.

Ergo, playing

from actual practice

, in the reality of the game: Scum are going to try and look more town than normal, And to also prevent town from looking as town as they are.

Scum want to look more town, and to make town look less credible

. And by actual PRACTICE, the scum doing that isn't a possibility--it's a probability. Trying to argue that there isn't a difference between statistical theory, and pragmatic reality, is scummy as fuck and if GuiltyLion were actually town he would know about this divide.

Are you going to try and argue that the scum's only way of influencing the votes is with their own votes? 'Cause I don't fucking think I need to explain why that is fallacious as fuck.
Scum have more tools than just their vote to influence the game. Which MY argument accounts for.

Your posts are more than just votes. And don't fucking pretend that you having discredited town players has no influence on the vote--everyone thinks Andante is town, yet nobody is voting her outside of me pretty much.
And that is largely due to the narrative of "Andante is a wildcard". Which players are pushing that narrative? That's right! You are!

all these talented townies in Datisi, TSQ, LLD, Andres just twiddling their thumbs and getting hoodwinked by the masterful deception powers of Dann and GL as we ensure JunkoChan gets wagoned by a bunch of low volume and/or meme posters without even ever arguing for it?

Not by that wording, but basically?

Yes!

I believe that the town lacks cohesion. All of those players have individually given their suspicion on the likes of {GL, Dann, VP Baltar, Junko}.
Individually, pretty much none of them think all four of those names are town.
Individually, pretty much all of them think that grouping has a scum.

And there are many players who are underperforming this game in particular. Maybe the posting restriction is playing part, rl stuff can also play a part, personal struggles in getting this specific playerlist more locked down can also play a part, and overall game activity can play a part, with them wanting more players to be active so that they can get a better view of everyone.

As they are town, as they are an individual, the only way for them to get backing is to convince another individual whose alignment they do not know, to go along with them. Which they are usually pretty good at, but not flawlessly so.

The town have

argued

for different names to be elected.

But they don't have the same influence scum have.

you completely ignore the fact that town is also trying to influence the outcome, and they far outnumber the scum team. Like town has three times the voting power

This is again theoretically true by statistics but ignores the base fundamental powers of town versus scum.

Town players do not know which other players are town.
Scum players do.

Each town player is a bloc of one. One, and only one. Because the only player whose alignment they know is their own, they have incredibly limited scope in individual power. They need to convince the players whose alignment they don't even know, to follow them in voting on a player whose alignment they don't know, and who the people they're trying to convince don't know the alignment of, when those players also don't know the alignment of the person making the argument. That's FIVE levels of unknown.
The unknown of the player being voted for by the player campaigning.
The unknown of the alignment the player doing the campaigning has.
The unknown of the alignment of the player being asked to vote.
And the interaction between those three.

Meanwhile, scum know

exactly

what the alignment of every player in that equation is. And, additionally, instead of being a bloc of one, they are a bloc of five. They know precisely which players are making which campaigns for which alignments, and have five times the collective weight of any individual town player.

You're not so fucking stupid as to not know this, GL.

Arguing that the uninformed majority just by virtue of being the majority,
Has more influence inherently off of that numeric superiority,
Is fallacious as fuck because it discards the scum's advantage of being the

informed

.

Each individual town player is an individual;
Each individual scum player is

not an individual

.

If five scum were truly synchronized together, then they effectively have 5 * 4 = 20 voices. (That is, at the highest possible peak performance of sucm, where each scum member was actively contributing to each scum member to make all 5 be at top form and making the best possible posting, then each scum would be more than the sum of their parts and be boosted by their teammates. Obviously, in reality, this is lower, but at their highest theoretical value, that's what they get.)
Whereas town are 16 * 1.

The scum have a far, FAR greater ability to influence the game by leveraging their information to influence the viewpoints of other players, and networking their own posts in the scum PT to provide constant feedback to signal boost their strength.
Not all players are created equal--do you think a town-Not_Mafia provides the same value to town voices as a town-Ellibereth does? Obviously not.
That's obviously true about scum players as well, but scum players have something town players do not. A town-Not_Mafia will always be set in value. He cannot become stronger, because he is alone.
A scum player can become more, because they are

not alone

.

You are by arguing that town majority = scum have less influence than town.
When that's not reflective of reality--that's reflective of theoretical truth via raw statistics, but it is NOT reflective of reality when given the lens of scum's most basic power of information, paired with their oft-overlooked secondary power of

communication

.
There was a time when daytalk was considered so strong for a scum faction

it was valued as strongly as having an extra scum member

.
That three scum with daytalk was effectively four scum without daytalk. The ability for the

informed

to have open

communication

allows them to make a more collective push. They have a stronger collective power than any single town player to influence the game.

Because each town player is an individual, each town player lacks that collective strength. And because each scum player is part of a team, each scum player has the collective strength of that team to back them.

to me it feels obvious and indisputable.

Sure is, from a mathematical perspective reliant entirely on theory.

Sure isn't, based on actual practice accounting for the scum tools in the game versus the town's restrictions/limitations based on the weaknesses of the town that act as force dividers and the strengths of the scum that act as force multipliers.

(I don't remember my train of thought, I don't remember what exactly I wanted to quote from my iso and what my point precisely was, but the basic of it is that I AM arguing for probabilities.

Probabilities do not rely on sheer statistical math that is

disconnected from the practice of the game

--those are not probabilities. Those are just theories. Probability relies on

what is likely in a given situation

, something requiring to account for the human aspect. I don't remember my exact wording, my exact argument, where I was going with exactly because my internet failed, but I wasn't gonna let a half-finished post be discarded altogether.)

[mastina]

@Mastina
You think people are smart enough to realize it was a planned buss?

I mean if they were thinking critically enough to realize that it is mathematically impossible for the wagon to not have scum on it, sure.

I've not the faith in them to connect the dots required.

[mastina]

You know what’s actually kind of bad as I look at the votes? This one: 1736. DW had been pushed to the brink, and Rhaenyra (after voting for DW as the 4th voter) moves away from them to start a vanity wagon on VPB. The part that’s curious though is that I don’t know that if you absolutely think DW is going down there, that you move away, making you look so transparently bad (I was expressing skepticism and could have hammered, and there were several well explained reads going against DW there).

You literally point out what makes Rhaenyra's slot town there and discard the implication from it.

Dwlee was bussed--period. It's indisputable because it's mathematically impossible for them to have not been bussed. For every name off the wagon that is town (which is most or all), you need to add to the total of scum on the Dwlee wagon.

There are genuinely 3-4 scum on the Dwlee wagon.

Ergo, scum didn't just bus Dwlee. They

committed

to bussing Dwlee. If Dwlee was not a committed bus, then Dwlee wouldn't have 3-4 scum on their wagon, now, would they?

So then the question follows:
If Dwlee was a committed bus--which they were--then why would Rhaenyra with a team committed to the bus hop OFF of Dwlee and thus lose any possible towncred for having been a part of the wagon?

She wouldn't.

Rhaenyra, and by extent Johnny, is town.

[mastina]

Does anybody think I’m missing anything?

For the record, no, your scenario 2 is indeed better than the scenario 1.

Can anyone make a Johnny town case that isn't entirely reliant on "Rhaenyra posted a lot of nonsense quickly"?

Yeah, Rhaenyra is Yume, and Yume has a night and day difference between her towngame and her scumgame--literally anyone who has played with Yume, ever, knows that this is her towngame.

I in particular have a near-100% read accuracy on her, and simply put: Yume cannot fake being town across every metric for an extended period of time. She can fake it short-term, but not long-term.

The argument of "but Yume could have been specifically been playing in a way specifically to try and pocket mastina specifically and perfectly pulled this off" is the only counterargument to that, and I don't think I need to point out how absolute bullshit that argument is.
No, Yume does not try to pocket me as scum--I literally just played a game with Yume as scum and she made no attempt to pocket me there.
No, even if Yume did try it, she would not succeed. Yume has tried to fake being her town self before and there were imperfections in it, imperfections that are obvious when viewed in the lens of the whole.
No, Yume is not some mastermind of a scum player capable of perfectly replicating her townplay in order to get a townread from a single player, but even if she were?

No, that is not a winning strategy, because becoming a townread of mine is something she has personal experience in knowing will not save her, will not protect her, because she knows that

I don't have enough influence to save her slot

. She has always argued that I should have more influence than I do. She has always argued that I should be listened to more than I am. But the fact remains that I am NOT listened to, I am NOT a voice who can influence the entire game.

So Yume getting a townread from me is not something that would actually be a viable scum strategy.

Plus, personality-wise, a scum-Yume never does what she does here. If Rhaenyra were scum, then she wouldn't have run afoul of the posting restriction in the first place. A scum Rhaenyra is capable of a surprisingly large amount of restraint. She is more calculating than people give her credit for. She is strategic and arguably precise with her approach. Running into the post limit and then getting replaced for voting too quickly is not a nai action; it is an action that demonstrates Rhaenyra wasn't showing control, Rhaenyra wasn't showing restraint, Rhaenyra wasn't being conscientious of her positioning, and that makes her town, because a scum Rhaenyra is all of those things.

[mastina]

But hoping off doesn't mean losing towncred.

No, hopping off does lose towncred.

If you hop onto a scum wagon without pushing (regardless of position), then you get almost no towncred. No reasoning = no proof the read is sincere.
If you hop onto a scum wagon without pushing then hop off (regardless of position), then you get no towncred. Hopping off = looks like it was an attempt to save the scumbuddy, that the arguments you were making weren't actually genuine, that you were distancing without bussing.

The only towncred to be had from hopping onto a scum wagon is if you pushed the wagon and then never left, committing to it.

Ergo, Rhaenyra hopping off means that a scum-Rhaenyra loses any and all credit behind her push on Dwlee--and therefore a scum-Rhaenyra would not have actually hopped off.

[mastina]

I myself yesterday was kind of musing in my head about going over all the people who have received votes for king and thinking that there has to be at least one scum in that pool.

Coronation Vote - Day One

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb, GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan, Charloux

GuiltyLion [4]:

thestatusquo,

Dwlee99

, PenguinPower, VP Baltar

I wonder who that could be???

(Dwlee the literal flipped scum voted for GuiltyLion as King. Literal flipped scum. Voted for GuiltyLion. As King. And you're not considering that maybe, just

maybe

, the scum in the pool could be, oh, I dunno...who the literal flipped scum voted for.)

[mastina]

Coronation Vote - Day One

Dwlee99 [1]:

VP Baltar

Coronation Vote - Day One

GuiltyLion [5]:

Dannflor, thestatusquo, Dwlee99, PenguinPower, Junkochan

(Dwlee kept their vote on GuiltyLion for King until the very last vc, and GL never had fewer than 3 votes for being King.)

I wonder who the scum candidate for King could be???

[mastina]

Oh heah
Mafia desided to bus dwlee and was like "let's dwlee also vote for kinging yet another teammate"

That's not how chronology works and you fucking know it.

Mafia didn't decide to bus Dwlee and then have Dwlee vote for Kinging another teammate.

Mafia tried to King a teammate, and when that failed, decided to bus Dwlee to prop up said teammate.

Which you may note is what is actually supported by the chronology of the game.

[mastina]

tinfoil theory of VPB scum.

It ain't tinfoil; at least one of VP Baltar and GuiltyLion is basically guaranteed to be scum.

But I'm well aware of the impossibility of convincing y'all of that today.

When the players VP Baltar and GL push continue to flip town one after another (starting with Johnny today who will in fact flip town), it'll only be a matter of time before you realize that maybe, just

maybe

, I'm not fucking wrong about them being scum.

It's just that there's not a chance in hell of me convincing you today.

[mastina]

Not gonna lie, Dann is reminding me so much of scum!gamma from invictus...

(It's because Dann is scum.)

[mastina]

ive been feeling that if council pt has been all town. The scum must be trying to break the trust between it. The worst offenders of accusing and causing paranoia are my townreads in council. So like.....is this an actual scum ploy? The people in day who are doing are like GL/VPB etc.

As a matter of fact, yes!

GL and VP Baltar are scum. They've been upset about the council from the very moment neither of them were on it--because they were banking on Shea selecting at least one of them if not both to be on it. The way they had Shea as a top townread and voted him for King, then after the council choices were made started turning against him, demonstrates precisely why they are scum; their stances pre-King and post-King have a night/day divide because of the shift in strategy required.

I lowkey think that the kills are because they wanted Shea to replace the dead with them.

Remember how Shea said on D1 that he was between Lukewarm and GL for a position? He selected Lukewarm over GL for it--and then Lukewarm died. Freeing up the position that on D1 Shea had as being between Lukewarm and GL.
And then that

very same position

was killed N2, when held by MathBlade.

Mesthinks that maybe, just maybe, scum want GL to be in the Master of Whispers position!

[mastina]

i will accept the longer name whatever that may be

Andante2.0.

VOTE: furtive

Good vote.

I prefer Dann over furtive, but would happily join you there.

[mastina]

you do know that shea cannot add new people onto the council right now, right?

Is that an actual rule?

I don't see it listed as one.

[mastina]

I think Dwlee knew they were going down on D2 because they almost went down on D1, obviously, but I don't think that means scum planned to bus them at the start of the game. I would look for people who artificially increased in confidence on Dwlee from D1 to D2

Wrong place to start--the actual place to start is the moment the King was selected.

I guarantee you of the nine voters for Dwlee the moment Shea became King, less than 4 gave suspicion on Dwlee prior.

[mastina]

Any other Small Council Member - the King may give their duties to another member of the small council - no member of the small council may hold more than two roles at a time.

[/quote]MAY give--where does it say REQUIRED to give?

Did nobody bother to ask if Shea can appoint an outside name?

[mastina]

Any other Small Council Member - the King may give their duties to another member of the small council - no member of the small council may hold more than two roles at a time.

MAY give--where does it say REQUIRED to give?

Did nobody bother to ask if Shea can appoint an outside name?

Like, wording is important.

The difference between 'may' and 'must' is important.
The difference between 'can' and 'required' is not insignificant.

[mastina]

i find it weird that seemingly no consistent counterwagon is happening here again, but uh.

It's

almost

like the town has had no cohesion whereas the scum have been unified, and thus the things happening have largely been at the behest of the scum!

[mastina]

it's between VPB/GL/Titus/Dann

Jesus fucking Christ no wonder the scum killed Andres that is literally 2-4 scum and deadass could be the entirety of the scumteam.

[mastina]

Who do you want to lim today

Oh oops I did indeed forget to vote.

Ideally, it'd be GuiltyLion.
If not him, then you.

But one mislim that you two spearhead isn't enough for the town to realize you're scum controlling the game, so I don't hold any expectations of getting those wagons with momentum.

VOTE: Dannflor

Dann, on the other hand...

[mastina]

Oh and also us overthrowing both a town!Shea and a cop cleared mastina would be tantamount to scumclaiming, which benefits this team, how?

Even if you wanted to do that--You need Andres to do that, anyway, but my point isn't that you did it for the power to overthrow anyway.

why do you think GL says he'd lim Titus and Dann, who you allege are his buddies maybe?

Those aren't real pushes until he actually pushes.

The very fact that I don't remember GL even

having

Titus/Dann pushes proves that GuiltyLion's "pushes" there hardly qualify for that term.

Now I admit!

Obviously, it might not be that exact team of four.

But it's deadass 4/6 of my scum pool. The only names who could be scum outside of that are furtiveglance and LLD, and LLD doesn't fit as scum with any of y'all so really it's 4/5.

Ok, let's say we're scum and we killed Andres so we could be kingsguard. Then we can use our new position to overthrow the King

I'm gonna stop you there because you're not going down my logic path at all.

You didn't kill Andres to overthrow the King.

Small council

positions

in the hands of the mafia faction

may unlock special "bonus" abilities that are not known to you but will be known to the mafia faction

In the event of the death of a small council member, the following procedure will be followed:
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard -

The Kingsguard

elect

a new Lord Commander

from amongst their ranks

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard holds the following abilities:

Member of the

Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

The KINGSGUARD, not the King, not the Prince, gets to elect their Lord Commander upon the death of the Lord Commander.

The Mafia gain ABILITIES when they have a mafiate on the SMALL COUNCIL.
The LORD COMMANDER is a member of the SMALL COUNCIL.

Ergo, the KINGSGUARD electing a scum to be the new LORD COMMANDER

unlocks scum powers

.

You're a fucking mechanics player, don't fucking pretend you didn't catch this interaction.

[mastina]

You didn't kill Andres to overthrow the King.

Small council

positions

in the hands of the mafia faction

may unlock special "bonus" abilities that are not known to you but will be known to the mafia faction

In the event of the death of a small council member, the following procedure will be followed:
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard -

The Kingsguard

elect

a new Lord Commander

from amongst their ranks

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard holds the following abilities:

Member of the

Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

The KINGSGUARD, not the King, not the Prince, gets to elect their Lord Commander upon the death of the Lord Commander.

The Mafia gain ABILITIES when they have a mafiate on the SMALL COUNCIL.
The LORD COMMANDER is a member of the SMALL COUNCIL.

Ergo, the KINGSGUARD electing a scum to be the new LORD COMMANDER

unlocks scum powers

.

You're a fucking mechanics player, don't fucking pretend you didn't catch this interaction.

To be more exact: Andres, the LORD COMMANDER OF THE KINGSGUARD, was nightkilled last night.

The King doesn't get to select a replacement.
The Prince doesn't get to select a replacement.

It's the KINGSGUARD who get to select a replacement.

The LORD COMMANDER is a member of the SMALL COUNCIL. That

not only

grants them access to the small council PT, but more importantly,

unlocks scum powers if the scum are placed on it

.

The entire council has thusfar proven to be town.
Lukewarm was town. MathBlade was town. Datisi is town. Andres was town. Johnny was town. I am town. The only unproven slots are Andante2.0(fireisredsir) and Firebringer, but both of them have good reasons to be town.

Therefore, scum have had no access to the council, and have had no access to the scum powers which come from being on the council.

But the Kingsguard last night was made up 4/4 of my suspects.
And Andres died.
And the Kingsguard get to select, from those 4/4, someone to be the new Lord Commander--placing themselves onto the council without the consent of King, Prince, or Town.

You're fucking lying if you don't see the scum motivation there.

[mastina]

Wait for her to kill VPB two days later lol.

I laughed.

[mastina]

Mastina would you prefer if VPB is Lord Commander over me? As token of goodwill I am happy to support him. Won't go for Dann or Titus

It genuinely doesn't matter, y'all are scumreads of mine.

Titus > VP = GL > Dannflor only because Titus is the weakest scumread and Dannflor the strongest, but there's no good option because all have a high chance of being scum.

[mastina]

Fucking he'll.

The universe just doesn't seem to want me to exist it'd seem.

I've been sick (everything tastes like cardboard, my temperature feels out of whack, I've had some coughing, a sore throat, and a specific form of soreness in my shoulder that I've only ever felt once in my life ever, last time I had covid--yet the test came back negative so *hitoshrug*), I've fallen behind on important work stuff that I literally need to keep my job, the website to clock my hours is down and has been since Wednesday so I'm missing out on 15+ hours of pay, I have a staff meeting tomorrow, and on top of all that, I've had three power hits knocking my computer out in the last few days, and a RANDOM ASS OUTAGE of my internet tonight JUST as I was preparing to fuckinv catch up.

So like.

V/LA until the universe decides that it's done hating my guts.

With luck, I can catch up Sunday but I did see that VP died and flipped town.

I'll need actually being able to read the fucking game (which I can't really do while phoneposting) in order to get reorientated. I'll try to think of the game even offline, but without thread access and with far bigger things on my mind, no promises.

I would prefer that the day not end, but we're it to, please let it be on Dann because I think that mo matters what, Dann is still scum hrre.

[mastina]

Execution Vote Day Four

With fourteen players alive - it will require eight votes to eliminate a player.

Dannflor [4]:

mastina, roden, ProfessorDrapion, thestatusquo,

firebringer [2]:

GuiltyLion, Unowen,

fireisredsir [2]:

Lady Lambdadelta, Titus,

ProfessorDrapion [2]:

fireisredsir, Datisi,

Unowen [1]:

Firebringer,

VP Baltar [1]:

furtiveglance,

Not Voting [2]:

Enchant, Dannflor

Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-15 22:58:35)

BTW just sayin,, the wagons on fire suck ass.

Which fire?

The wagon on fire.
Which is to say, both

Both fires are town, and while Titus is conftown ain't no way that four voters are all town, there's gonna be 1-2 scum yhere guaranteed.

[mastina]

I’m sorry @Mastina
But are you gonna tell me Firebringer isn’t wolf here trying to save Dann.

As a matter of fact, yes.

How many members of the council will need to flip town before y'all realize that the entirety of the initial council (King included) was town?

I believe Firebringer's push on UNOwen isn't

optimal

, at least not today.
I don't believe Firebringer's push on Unowen is actually wrong.

"Saving" one scum (Dannflor) to try and eliminate a different scum (Unowen) is disproportionately a town action.

[mastina]

@mastina
What percentage are you for each Fire flipping town. Cause it’s hard for me to see both Bringer and Red being town here.

Fireisredsir: 99.99%. Andante was the towniest town to have ever towned pretty much, and fireisredsir is just as town if not more. That ain't an exaggerated read. (If I were exaggerating it'd be 200%.) There's less than a 1% chance of Andante2.0 being scum. I legit don't see how it could ever be possible, ever.

Firebringer: 60-90%. Fucked if I know how to read Firebringer, but like. If he's scum he's playing incredibly pro-town. I believe the council to be all town and he as the master of coin has acted in an incredibly pro-town manner. If I was faking read strength I'd call that a 99.99-100% read, but being honest, not quite that high because it's Firebringer, of course I can't read him worth a damn so of course it's not

that

high.

But like. His actions fit as town. His actions have been pro-town. His play looks town. He is doing things that look town. He doesn't seem to fit as scum. The scum's actions don't feel like they fit in a scum-Firebringer world. The scum's kills don't feel like Firebringer kills. So like. By every metric, he looks town to me. Legit the only reason he ISN'T 100% is because he's Firebringer, who I can't read worth shit and have an incredibly low accuracy rate in reading.

But like.

He has some pretty damn strong reasons to be town imo.

[mastina]

and she is giving off vibes that don't say "i'll be killed soon, so here are my thoughts". It's as if she knows she's going to be alive, which is really REALLY weird.

I'm struggling to figure out if this is LLD with a goldfish memory or LLD being disingenuous as fuck, because those are the only two options.

I never showed "I'll be killed soon, here are my thoughts" in THIS topic.

I very much have shown those thoughts

DURING THE NIGHT

.

Literally all of N1 in fact.

And N1 was the one and only time where I thought I realistically could've died.

After Dwlee flipped scum, why the fuck would I die, LLD? I defended them. Generally speaking, slots who hard-defend scum tend to not be the scum's nightkill.

I didn't become conftown until D3. Which meant the first time I

could

have died after becoming conftown was N3--last night. The night where I literally was too exhausted overwhelmed busy and such to actually do much of anything but still tried?

I literally gave real reads and real reasons with real accuracies, discarding the normal mastina fake confidence. You're acting like my Monday posting never happened in there--but it did.

Literally on both nights that I actually could have died. On both N1 AND N3. I did exactly what you are fucking saying I didn't do. I literally DID go "I'll be killed soon so here are my thoughts" on both N1 and N3. I can't quote them here but they very much are there for any member of the non-Shea voters to access.

Which you are among.

[mastina]

@Mastina
Explain to me why your so confident in the FireRed slot being town again?

Do y'all have goldfish memory?

'Cause I seem to recall everyone universally saying on D1 that Andante was basically conftown. Because she has the same exact night/day difference in her posting that Rhaenyra has. (Oh I guess that answers my question. Of course you fucking have goldfish memory because you fucking eliminated a slot who was 99.99% town because of that exact same reason! Maybe actually fucking listen to me this time when I say a slot which is 99.99% town is 99.99% town???)

Spoiler: here's a small reminder

I’ll keep going though with explaining my reads - I think Andante is the easiest player to perceive as Town, though I wouldn’t sleep on them potentially faking this natural nervousness they have. I just can’t bring myself to think the slot is Scum.

Also, I’ve switched up my read on Andante - others can confirm, but their complaints about the DW wagon are an almost exact mind meld with what I posted on the PT, to the point where it made me take a step back. So I would like for you to take more time reading Andante because I have been oscillating there but I don’t think they’re Scum anymore.

Andante is kind of the only person I am very confident is town atm.

also the tinfoily part of my brain is telling me that if you were scum, *someone* in your scumteam would know andante and warn you that she's basically an omgus machine and also that she is just like that as town and so it's not worth the struggle in early game... but tinfoiling

actually I guess Datisi said this exact thing earlier
hmmmmm were you referencing this at all @Luke?

no, but I am pretty sure that is a fairly common conception of Andante?

Andante seems town from the three posts I've read on this page.

(snip)

This is a good andante post. I agree with most of what she's saying about the tone and vibes of these posts.

My town reads so far:
GuiltyLion
Junko
Andante

Big pocket andante energy coming from mastina posting.

I think you're likely town. I still don't want you to be king. I have some paranoia about how positively you interacted/commented specifically rhea and andante but I'll sort out those feelings later.

andante twon yes?

Maybe. I'm not minding the votes at the very least. I considered voting andante king, but andante is also LOL loose cannon sometimes as town, so idk.

I agree with andante. Idg the dann townread.

Andante is pretty obv town

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point.

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town.

Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?

I don't think it's that she CAN'T replicate it as scum, I just go on vibes with andante. I try to look at if I think she's generally moving in the right direction, though she's bound to have bad takes and reads. It's just a question of her holistic viewpoint, which i still feel OK enough with right now.
I think I townread andres more tbh because I don't like andante's whining about low activity to some degree (even if I agree I'd like to see those bottom 9 post more), but overall I still think she is net advocating positions I agree with.

I don't have an idea of what scum-Andante looks like, but she seems to have the same energy as the previous game I played with her where she was town.

I looked back and saw that the Andante read was also suspicious, because A) having skimmed through Andante's ISO in HDP I thought that there was definitely a difference in style compared to this game and Baileyposting - I think that I thought she seemed less confrontational and more appeasing there and B) GuiltyLion had at some point moved Andante to probtown, actually described as potential deepwolf on his read list - which was a very big jump from the starting place of "I don't get why people are townreading Andante" with only "it must be scum TMIing" as apparent explanation.

So towards the end of day 1 I was playing with the theory that VPB/GL were potentially both scum and bussing dwlee. But at some point between then and day 2 I decided that the number of GuiltyLion posts where he looked to be genuinely trying to figure out the game and taking a sincere approach outweighed how much I cared about the weakly justified Andante shift. There should be more than that to point to if he's scum. I think Shea's push against him was the trigger for me to actually consider whether I seriously thought this was what he would look like as scum. I'm also biased to someone who seems to be reading the game in a similar way to me, even if that's not a surefire town tell. For example his case against Charloux which was partly a restatement of what I said but as he had raised the Charloux suspicion in a PT beforehand I fully believe that he just had the same thoughts as me.

Andante is being andante nothing to worry about here. Town

Andante Professor villa

andante twon yes?

andante twon yes?

why did you say this and was it for a reason other than wallpost = town

from what i remember, my one encounter with scum-andante was that she was kinda shitposty and didn't care about the game much
and i think town-andante tends to be tryhard srsbsns early, like in invictus

well andante is town and if i say she's not town at some point in this game, please point me to this post, thanks in advance

andante town, dannflor firebringer and vp baltar feel town

datisi can you talk about your read on me
I'm kinda uncomfy with you town binning me

well, it is mostly projection, but
204 and 208 are your thoughts on andante, and i think they make sense from a townie pov. because i know how it feels to meet andante for the first time and be ??? at what she's doing and how she's playing. i also think as scum it's easy to see that stuff, and think you have found an easy target to push. but your posts just... don't feel like you're trying to project to us why andante is scum, or show how much effort you're putting into sorting her, it feels real and as if you're actually talking to her and trying to sort her.

also the tinfoily part of my brain is telling me that if you were scum, *someone* in your scumteam would know andante and warn you that she's basically an omgus machine and also that she is just like that as town and so it's not worth the struggle in early game... but tinfoiling

I think town would be more likely to be critical of questionable methods even if they agree with the conclusions? whereas scum would just be happy someone was agreeing with their reads? I don't understand why that isn't more likely to be town trying to get high quality reads / sorting than mafia... weakening a position in the game they support?

The end result of that statement is to make people doubt Andante town reads, and it never acknowledges that. It doesn't have the "I think Andante is town anyways, but..." aspect in there, which I would expect from an uninformed view point that is entering into that conversation with a town read on Andante.
It does not engage with Andante's alignment, or even engage with your alignment for making such a post.
It is just... there.

yeah this is utter bullshit
the idea that i have to repeat my townread of andante for the nth time in order to call out bad reasoning is nonsense
because literally less than 10 minutes earlier, i wrote 761 outlining difference between town and scum andante and why i think she's town this game; i had literally just got out of saying "i think andante is town" - and i'm trying to make people doubt town-andante by that one line? k

2. probably town: firebringer, titus, mathblade, enchant, shea, andante

andante

- uhh i'm still kind of sticking to my read of her being too out there to be scum. like, going from claiming that there's no way that dwlee is scum, to then jumping ship from pushing them at the lateish moment? making a new readslist and claiming they're town actually??? like, i generally think that scum has more self-awareness than to do that. and like, i don't actually hate her votes on roden/unowen and her reads in the council pt, so.

prob town? wouldn't lim today, maybe a deep wolf in here that I don't think I'd catch with no info and no flips

: {Andante, Datisi, Dann, LLD}

since you have andante in your "I wouldn't lim today but they can be wolves" what do you think about andante read progression? do you think it's natural for her to drop her scumread on me without adressing it, and follow up to that it's another question on me that lead to nothing?

her argument is that those reads were far away from eachother but I don't think you can just forget something that happened recently in irl time

this isn't out of character for Andante from what I've seen, I agree it's weird but check her ISO in KTANE - she did a lot of sudden read 180s that I had a hard time understanding and she was town there.

and TSQ pointed it out earlier but Mastina does feel very pockety towards Andante
if she's town she's kind of an ideal town!King for scum, easy to buddy and convince to change her mind, easy to blame if shit goes off the rails

now I get the feeling that Andante is town cuz I can see where they are coming from, and UNO could be mafia spotting LHF?

here is my small town:
Andante
TSQ
Firebringer
Lady Lambdadelta
Dannfloor

Andante went from no trust to probably town.

Sorry, yesterday was busy, but I have read and have some town reads (andante, datisi, firebringer) and one scum read (unown). Enchant could be town?

Andante is town, dweelee is town

I'm signing my name to the 'people are scum reading andante for reasons that are...andante' book. It's not particularly deep or complicated, but I'm not the only one with that take.

Andante is town.

6. Andante (Master of Laws) - 59 already has me sold on Andante being Town. I agree with a lot of the case as well. 131 is extremely ambitious, I think the hunger is Town.
So, to clarify:

Town

UNOwen
Andante
Andres
Lukewarm
Mastina
LLD
Firebringer
PP
Titus
VP Baltar
PD
Enchant
Dannflor

Null

Datisi
MariaR
TSQ

Scum

JunkoChan
Dwlee
GL
Unwnd

From what I can tell Dweelee is an apathy wagon

what's an apathy wagon? I'm pretty certain on dwlee maf here, like, one look at that ISO... that is not town!dwlee

Yeah +scum for Johnny there, mischaracterisation of the wagon. +Town for Andante

I think fireisredsir is Town because I townread Andante.

There is a performative / "showing off" tone to both of these posts that comes from scum a lot more often than not.

feel like you are putting on a show. There's a lot of like... feigned confidence here that I don't usually see townie's put into their page 3 reads. It reads like scum projecting confidence in order to see more town. 50 feels like you are giving a presentation where the thesis is that "look I am having an in depth thought process on JunkoChan" not a townie who actually suspects JunkoChan. And there's like no attempt to reach out to or sort Junko. Just very definitive declarative statements with confidence that I don't think you'd actually feel here as town.

64 is just LAMIST. Like literally, "oh look at me I'm so town I read everything because I'm uninformed." It has this anxious look at me I'm so town energy that I feel like almost all your posts contain in some way.

These posts are pretty much exactly how I'd expect scum to be playing

this game early knowing that the most important thing for them is to get town read and get into a position of literal power

Funny you say that, Dann, about how you expect scum would be playing.

'Cause literally everything you're accusing Andante of here, you're the one actually guilty of doing.

No, seriously, this is legit MY case on you, but substituting Andante in: your posts were performative and showing off. You were putting on a show with feigned confidence that

never

comes from infamously-cautious town-Dannflor. You're projecting confidence to seem more town. You're making a presentation where the thesis is "look I have in-depth thoughts on Andante", not a town player actually suspecting her. And there's no attempt to sort her. Just a scumread declared definitively with confidence. Your posts reek of LAMIST.

I kind of almost wonder if the sheer number of people calling adante obvious town does in fact mean she is just town and there are TMIers in the mix

Oh, certainly!

But I also think that the push against Andante comes from scum, too.

"but mastina, scumbuddies can talk to each other".

That doesn't mean they're gonna be uniform and share details about a specific player. You can argue that's optimal play, that don't mean they'll actually do it. Which is to say, no, I don't think the ideas of "there are scum who TMI defended Andante" is contradictory with the ideas of you and GL being scum who didn't know better than to push Andante. Scum don't have that perfect a communication link. And even if they

did

, there are tangible reasons to fake not having it.

So like, I agree with you that there's scum in the TMI defenders of Andante--but still think that you and GL pushing there is scum.

Can you (and any other Andante town readers who want to jump in) give me a summary of why this is specifically a town!Andante game? Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?

Yup, GuiltyLion is scum. (This whole post is scum tbh.)

Andante is town because she has a night and day difference between her townplay and her scumplay and this was her townplay.

Andante is town because her reads were really fucking good and her reasons were as well.

Andante is town because she was pushed by scum in ways incredibly unlikely to be that of scum bussing.

And then there's fireisredsir.
fireisredsir is town because I've seen fireisredsir as scum and this ain't it. (I might be misremembering but I think I've seen fireisredsir as town? And matching there? But I could be misremembering, games tend to blur.)

fireisredsir is town because his reads and his takes have been town.

More than all of that, both are town because the council was all town.

Both holders of the slot were in their town metas.
Both holders of the slot have had good reads and good reasons.
Both holders of the slot have been pushed by scum.

So like.

fireisredsir is literally town by every metric possible.

[mastina]

Also I’m sorry but Dann’s read on Johnny reeked of wolf.

Oh I agree.

Now take a look at Dannflor's interactions with Andante and I fucking dare you to call Dann partnered with her. He ain't. Dann is scum, and by virtue of Dann being scum, Andante (and by extent, fireisredsir) is town.

[mastina]

if anyone is going to pretend titus after cop claim isn't more townie. I have questions for them.

*raises hand*

Legit the only reason I don't think Titus is scum is the cop check because she radiates scum in every way shape and form otherwise?

I'd be voting her if not for the cop check there proving my read wrong.

I don’t buy it, I’m gonna need stronger reasoning by Mastina. People can change their meta.
Look at LOST. Titus/Nancy Drew were wrong on their Gamma Emerald read and 99% Town Read them as well.

I'm gonna refrain from going into territory which will get me banned but suffice to say Drapion: your 4398 is something that if I respond to I will get myself fucking banned for because I am that furious at you for it.

Don't.
Just don't.

Your point there is very fucking bad.

[mastina]

she's been confirmed town for days, why is she still alive?

Not days--*a* day.

And I was pushing both VP Baltar and GuiltyLion as scum. VP Baltar only flipped town today--why was I the best nightkill last night? I was a

possible

nightkill, but I'm not delusional enough to think I was the BEST nightkill when VP Baltar is town. Literally the only reason to kill me would be for the role, but the doctor would just get reassigned and so too would the prince. Under full control of Shea.

In contrast, the scum if they have any member on the Kingsguard would have some influence in potentially being able to make their way onto the council, just by virtue of killing Andres.

Scum that, oh, y'know...has a high chance of including Dannflor?

[mastina]

Well looks like hte plan worked.
Good work everyone

It did indeed.

[mastina]

aight i prob want to go furtive or drap today then personally

I prefer furtive.
VOTE: furtiveglance

[mastina]

(will talk once vcat off kao_

[mastina]

if all of my townreads are town then the POE is incredibly incredibly narrow and that is worrying me but I am not sure what to do

I mean.

Last night confirmed that the entirety of the town council is town. Shea town, Firebringer town, fireisredsir town, Datisi town, me town, Titus town.
The result on LLD is town--given Datisi town, that is absolute.

That's 7/13 as conftown right now.

Which, yes, means the scum pool is quite narrow--but when scum have been denied a seat on the council the entire game, them's the breaks.

There's 3 scum in 6 names.

{Roden, UNOwen, GuiltyLion, ProfessorDrapion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.

We basically have an autowin here.

But that said, I think Drapion is town here.
I lean town on Roden, too.

So that leaves four scum in {UNOwen, GuiltyLion, furtiveglance, Enchant}.
As you are in that pool, you naturally don't like it.

But that pool is absolute.

The seven conftown are conftown.
We have three scum left.
And that's three scum for six slots and you are a candidate.

My preference is furtiveglance > UNOwen = GuiltyLion > Enchant > Roden > ProfessorDrapion.

[mastina]

(cat back, will continue when she gone again)_

[mastina]

@Mastina
Who’s your wolf team solve?

Well definitely furtiveglance.

Beyond that, not sure.

I think that GuiltyLion is actually still scum, trying to do his best to carry the team.

Beyond that, I think that UNOwen is scum, too.

Is there any issue with the team just being those three?

[mastina]

What to do is Mastina is fucking WRONG. It’s Narrow cause Mastina can’t open her eyes and realize at least 1 wolf is on the damn council.

Drapion the council literally knew who was being protected last night.

A failed kill literally gave the town a mislim.

You could argue that if scum deliberately failed a kill which kept the games on evens, they did so for towncred.

But we went into the night with 13 alive. Failing to kill kept us at 13 rather than 12--which literally gives the town an extra mislim that literally any kill would've stopped.

The scum could've killed literally anyone, except the player(s) the council were protecting.

And that would've kept the game on evens.

Instead, there is a no-kill, and the game went onto odds, giving the town a mislim.

Because the scum didn't know who to kill and in all probability, just shot Firebringer.
Something council members would know not to do.

[mastina]

I feel like...I have to be wrong somewhere. Otherwise four scum supported Shea, who I also town read.

Four scum supported Shea?

Shocker

!

It's almost like I fucking said that was a scumdriven King election since day fucking one.

YES, four scum voted Shea. I've been telling you that since D1.

The more the game goes on, the more I'm gonna be proven right.

[mastina]

@mastina
OMFG please listen to me.

Sorry, Drapion, but

you

are the one who needs to listen to ME. I am the one on the council who knows what went on there.

The council is all town, period.

Now, does that mean Firebringer's push on you is good?

Why no, no it's not. You're town.

But Firebringer isn't scum for his push on you. Don't confuse bad for scum. Firebringer is

bad

for having that push; Firebringer isn't

scum

for that push.

[mastina]

So why isn't Titus dead?

We had a no-kill last night--meaning, explicitly, the scum tried to kill someone who they couldn't kill.

So the question isn't "why isn't X dead", it's "why did the scum try to kill one of the two players being protected"?

One of those players was Firebringer.

So any argument of scum on the council relies on "the scum, who knew exactly where the protection was headed, decided to deliberately have their kill fail, not only taking the game off of odds (which favor scum) but also giving town an extra mislim when they also have a cop to deal with, for ???"...

...OR, far simpler:
Scum didn't know who was being protected and shot at them, failing due to the protection.

(Cat again will continue, sorry if typos here.)

[mastina]

I think it's convient how mafia killed all trackers beforehand and when it was in firebringer hands they SUDDENLY got gigaplan to perform save.

What a coincidence.

I also think it's convenient how after the scum's kill failed last night, for SOME reason, we have players pushing Firebringer! (Or fireisredsir.)

It's almost like maybe, just maybe, the scum are upset at not getting their kill on the tracker

this

time.

[mastina]

Also Mastina you claim in PT you suddenly became 100% confident Firebringer is town? Why is that?
What is your solve in a Furtive!Town flip and Me!Town flip?

My solve is the same because the reason is the same.

Scum absolutely wouldn't give up on a nightkill last night--they had no reason to give up on a nightkill and literally

every

reason to make one.
They could've shot at me; they could've shot at Datisi; they could've shot at Titus; they could've shot at

literally any town player

, and the town would likely not bat an eye.

Yet they didn't.

The scum could've killed literally anyone last night, knowing where the protections were headed.

And yet they didn't kill anyone last night.

Which gives the town an extra mislim they otherwise wouldn't have gotten.
And brings the game back onto odds.
All because of no kill.

If the scum had scum on the council, they would know who was being protected, because the protection was a group plan in the council. We all collectively came up with it.

And yet the nightkill--or rather the lack thereof--seems to indicate it wasn't made with the knowledge of who was being protected.
Which is only possible...if we have an all-town council.

And it's not like we have no evidence of the scum making kills.

The scum are confirmed three for three in killing the tracker. And also killed the Kingsguard Captain.
Every kill has been aimed at the council.

And the protected player was a member of the council.

Sooooo.

Logic follows.

[mastina]

Is it just me that can't comprehend a green check on LLD? If Datisi does flip scum, LLD should be next

LLD, the player who is pushing for a Datisi elimination???



No, LLD is not scum with Datisi. LLD is literally pushing for the thing that would undo her conftown status if she were scum with Datisi.

[mastina]

Information is information.

Yes, which is why the council is all town--the council had the information of where the protections were headed.
There was no kill last night.

So either the scum deliberately didn't make a kill in spite of that directly giving the town more info (giving them an extra mislim and giving Datisi another check)...

...Or the scum didn't have the info of where the protections were headed.

One of those seems far simpler to me!

[mastina]

@mastina, my dislike of the gamestate is really much less that I am in the POE and more that I don't think any of furtive/Drap/UNOwen are slam dunk scum and that is making me nervous.

We don't need slam dunk when we literally have the game won by PoE.

With seven conftown and more to come every night Datisi lives, we've got a basically auto-win game...

...If we don't eliminate within said conftown.

So the push onto the conftown from those inside the PoE is inherently innately suspect.

It doesn't need to be for strong reasons.

Every scum at this point will have reasons that they will look like town.

But there's still three scum.

And only six slots they could be.

It's that simple.

[mastina]

Mastina, in your own words, why is furtive scum

The slot has been scum the entire game?

Bella was scum by contribution.

furtiveglance was scum by contribution--every vote furtive has made has been scummy as fuck.

furtiveglance works as a scumbuddy for both Dannflor and Dwlee.

furtiveglance looks like he's in his scum meta.

So.

Literally everything says furtive scum?

[mastina]

Why would scum shoot FB

Fucked if I know, but that question has been asked of every nightkill so far:
"Why did Lukewarm die? His reads weren't anything special" or something like that.
"Why did MathBlade die? He was MathBlade, scum killing him was doing us a favor" or something like that.
"Why did Andres die? He was part of the Datisi/GL/VP bloc, killing him does the town a favor" or something like that.

And yet the scum made all three of those kills.

The scum kills might seem baffling, but I have a quite simple theory as to why:
The scum

really

want the tracker power, for whatever reason.
(As a reminder--scum getting council powers get extra scum powers. Maybe getting tracker gives the player something like Godfather? Something to make that position and that position specifically worth it to be scum.)

[mastina]

Why does scum kill tracker three nights in a row

And since it worked for them three times, why not try a fourth?

So four scum supported Shea and used that momentum and the supporters PT to get exactly zero (0) scum on the council?

I mean--not for lack of trying!

They just failed.

Just because a scum plan

fails

doesn't mean the scum didn't try the scum plan.

I've said, explicitly, since something like N1. "The scum deliberately voted Shea in as King hoping he would place them onto the council. When he didn't, they hard-pivoted in focus because they had to".

I've yet to see so much as a single piece of evidence suggesting I'm wrong, and literally every piece of evidence suggests I'm right.

[mastina]

If all the PRs are town, tracker isn't a threat

Sure isn't!

But they wouldn't be wanting it for the

town

power, now, would they?

They'd want it for the SCUM power.

We don't know what the scum power for any of the PRs is. But if I had to guess, the less valuable the town PR (tracker is by far the weakest town power), the more valuable the scum PR would be, to give the scum incentive to be the weaker PRs instead of the stronger ones.

[mastina]

Because Datisi HAS to be cleared to confirm their results. It must happen and it cannot afford to occur JUST at ELO

Lylo is at 7 players.

The day before lylo is 9 players.

We are at 13 players--literally two day phases away from that. (As a reminder: we GAINED an elimination due to the lack of deaths. It'd have been only

one

if literally anyone died last night. 12p gives mylo after two mislims. 13p gives mylo after three.)

I've no interest in eliminating a player I think is 100% guaranteed to be town right now when in those two days we can get two more check and quite probably just win the game outright, thankyouverymuch. One or two scum in those days, with two extra checks that can help narrow things down even further or just outright give us a guilty.

[mastina]

I did say in council chat as crazy theory talk if dats played the game to get mastina as prince with fake clear and then had somehow organized the kingsguard to kill Shea i would nom him for a scummy for brilliant scum play.

And yet, Shea is still alive. And so are you. And so is fireisredsir.

It's literally gamethrowing to eliminate on the council today. The scum very clearly don't have any power; if they did, we'd have seen

some

form of difference in the game.

Eliminating in the council is doing the scum's jobs for them--because the scum haven't killed anyone outside the council yet, now, have they?

Plus, I wasn't the one pushing for a Johnny elimination. I knew the slot was town. It's

almost

like it was SCUM who wanted that elimination.

Every kill has been on the council and every town player actually voted out by elimination was on the council.

It's almost like being on the council is something scum want but don't already have!

[mastina]

even in a dats scum world. The only scummy thing ive found about mastina is she townreads me. That is just bizarre.

I have every reason to believe that the council has been town the entire game; you have been on the council the entire game.

I admit, without that, your posts aren't town at all. Nothing you've done or said has really made me think you're town.

The read is, exclusively, a mechanics read--because right now you are literally conftown.

[mastina]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that. Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

And wouldn't ya know it?

Today every vote except for those on the furtiveglance wagon has been a vote on a council member!

I wonder why?

[mastina]

Hey, make that logic with me Mastina,

Oh you, you I'm not talking to because I don't want to get banned.

I have fucking WORDS I would like to say but I'm on

very

thin ice with the mafiascum mod teams (as-is I might still get banned anyway), so like. I can't say what I want to.

[mastina]

What's the DOWNSIDE here?

It's guaranteed to be an elimination on town rather than on scum.

Just to satiate the paranoia of ONE fucking player that's town along with doing

exactly

what the scum want.

That seems like a pretty fucking huge downside to me!

[mastina]

I think the number of elims argument is not really that compelling when Duels are a thing

Duels are MORE reason not to eliminate Datisi--not less.

Datisi can on a future day enter a duel and get himself killed if need be. And if we drop down to 9 alive, he can be eliminated regardless of the day.

But the soonest that could happen is tomorrow, IF we have a kill tonight (11 alive), and IF we have 2 duelists die.

We know there's always going to be 11 alive tomorrow. Period. Can't be less because both duels today failed.

That means that there's no reason to eliminate Datisi today and every reason to eliminate...oh, I dunno...one of the six slots which could actually be scum?

[mastina]

i don't think scum go for intentional gambits for no killing. Thats something i would do. Not how most scum players play. Anyone speculating on that is literally paranoing over nothing. Unless u think im scum. Cause i def would do a no kill gambit as scum for lolz.

And with you being town, that means the council would all be town, yes?

Which means the push on Datisi/fireisredsir/you would be...what?

(Hint: it ain't town.)

[mastina]

So I mean, it seems flawless to me.

The flaw is that I don't want to eliminate town that satiates YOUR paranoia and YOURS ALONE, when you are

being backed by scum in doing so

.

I would much prefer we actually fucking lim the scum now and let the scum be boxed in further.

A Datisi mislim

opens doors

to the scum.

An elimination on one of the six possible scum slots boxes scum in even if it's a mislim.
We either get five names with two scum, or five names with three scum.
If the scum kill Datisi to stop the cop check, well waddaya know? Eliminating Datisi isn't necessary anymore!
If the scum don't kill Datisi and let the cop check go through, we've got:
-four names with three scum (if inno + mislim)
-five names with two scum (if scum lim + inno)
-Or four names with confscum (if guilty + mislim)

In every world, eliminating Datisi today is doing the scum's job for them and preventing us from narrowing the PoE down further.

[mastina]

Who are the 4 other crazy mofos

The 5 are:
Shea
Me
Mastina
Titus
You
and before you say you would never do that, come on now.

You're not on the council so it can't be you.

And Datisi is not among those names nor is fireisredsir--so with three scum alive it'd either need to be one of them dictating the actions for all of them,
Or 2/3 of them being scum with them overriding the name not on the list.

Since it couldn't be you.
That means that in order for scum to do it the team would need to be Shea on the council dictating everything + 2,
Shea/mastina/Datisi (exactly),
Shea/Titus/Datisi (exactly),
Shea/Fire +1,
Firebringer (dictating everything) +2,
Firebringer/mastina/Datisi (exactly),
Firebringer/Titus/Datisi (exactly),
Or Titus/mastina/Datisi (exactly).

I know it's not me.
Firebringer if he was scum could and likely would just lie about coins, since we'd need to take his word on everything.

So the only team that would realistically be possible is Shea +2, with Shea dictating everything--but if Shea were scum, then why did he choose an all-town council and then place town on it when town members died?

The council mathematically can't have scum on it realistically speaking.

There's not a viable scumteam combo.

[mastina]

I'm being honest I don't see how it's different mechanically to lim Datisi now or tomorrow, and I know the difference in information we will have doing a non-datisi elim today vs post-datisi flip.

Yeah--that the non-Datisi elimination gives us a hell of a lot more info.

A Datisi townflip tells us exactly what we already fucking knew.

The council is all town, always has been, and the scum really want its members dead and tried N4 to kill there but failed and we fucking did their job for them.

A non-Datisi elim either nets us an extra scum or narrows the pool down on who the scum can be by a suffocating amount.

[mastina]

The scum really want the tracker power, for whatever reason.

That would require a scum on the council...

Yes, yes it would!

Scum can't get the tracker power without being on the council, now, can they?

Now how do scum not on the council get on the council?

I'm town but I got added after Johnny was eliminated and Shea gave me both of his powers.

Now imagine what happens if instead of town being added, it's scum.

It's

almost

like you're fucking proving my point.

[mastina]

I don't really give a shit what you think Datisi is.

I don't give a fuck what YOU think about Datisi because as far as I am concerned he's conftown.

Your logic is fucking bad and you know that. It's better to have miselims with MORE info than less.

No, yours is the bad logic--yes it's better to have mislims with more info than less.

A Datisi elimination REMOVES information. It doesn't give information. It REMOVES information. So your logic is the logic that fucking sucks because YOU are actively campaigning for a plan that would

deprive the town of information

.

You said it yourself; it's better to have mislims with more information than less, but a Datisi elimination isn't an elimination which gives info.

[mastina]

Yeah also it's not just resolving Datisi a Datisi townflip literally 100% clears three players
That's valuable in and of itself

2/3 of those players are already cleared 98%.

An extra 2% at the cost of another 98% cleared player is never worth it.

[mastina]

mastina. if datisi flips town aren't we like still in a very good spot? i don't particularly like it but i don't think it's gamethrowing to confirm the checks and then people can actually focus on the correct (in that world) poe

We still have six unconfirmed slots but are down one of the confirmed slots. I don't want to deal with the hazards involved, either. Scum could get a kill via the kingsguard, scum could if killing one of the double-slot-holders potentially force a scum into the council, etc.

It opens up risks, for zero reward.

If the scum can't do that because Datisi is still alive, well then they can still try but we have the extra buffer.

A Datisi push is literally the most pro-scum thing possible. Bar none.

[mastina]

But you should strongly consider my arguments from a mechanical lens and a "what loses us the game" lens and playing around it.

Yes what loses us the game is eliminating a fucking conftown by eliminating Datisi.

[mastina]

mastina r u literally saying every vote on dats is scum.

No, but every vote sheeping LLD very well could be!

[mastina]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that. Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

And wouldn't ya know it?
Today every vote except for those on the furtiveglance wagon has been a vote on a council member!
I wonder why?

This is also bad logic.

Oh? How so?

The whole council made a decision to leave Datisi open and to protect Firebringer and fireisredsir.
There was no kill last night--meaning scum either didn't shoot anywhere, or shot one of Firebringer or fireisredsir.

Today, every vote has been on one of those three: Datisi (deliberately left open), Firebringer, and fireisredsir.

You're fucking lying if you don't say you see why that's suspect.

[mastina]

Do we have a deal?

No.

Vice-versa, sure--eliminate furtive today and IF he flips town I'll begrudgingly go after Datisi tomorrow. (It's fucking stupid, mind you. But I would.)

But I prefer the option that has a chance of leaving the second half unnecessary.

A Datisi flip is always town and always means we still have to eliminate furtiveglance.
A furtiveglance flip has a high chance of being scum and instantly means we don't need to eliminate Datisi.

[mastina]

Lmao, what is your point Mastina?

My POINT is that Datisi is literally already conftown and by virtue of all of {Datisi, mastina, Titus} already being conftown, eliminating Datisi gives us ZERO NEW INFO.

It tells us what we already fucking knew.

It keeps the mislim pool identical going into night rather than narrowing it.

It opens the door to the scum potentially pulling shenanigans.

None of which are good.

In contrats, an elimination in the pool?

Gives us new info, and it severely limits the mislim pool. The scum could outright shoot Datisi (which DOES THE JOB FOR US) and if not we remove not one but

two

names from the mislim pool (or get guaranteed scum), which mind you can also do the job of conftowning Datisi (would any of you argue Datisi is scum if he flipped scum?), and it removes any chance of the scum pulling some sort of maneuver that gives them a sudden advantage.

[mastina]

I didn't even do shit to you, lmfao.

I tend to take poorly to players I know are town gamethrowing by pushing for the elimination of conftown!

[mastina]

Honestly, would we even be having this conversation if the Cop was literally anyone besides Datisi

Datisi the player who has bled town all game (and was literally singlehandedly the reason Dwlee was an elimination because he hard-pushed Dwlee more than any other slot) and was in the council last night to know who was being protected and could've killed LLD last night or killed me or killed Titus or killed a player outside the council?

[mastina]

Datisi is not guaranteed town

Yes, he is--by your own admittance, he's not a player who would deliberately no-kill last night.
So that decision could not originate from him. It would explicitly need to not only originate elsewhere, but ALSO be something he signed off on--because as the cop, he would know the math behind how many players he needs to fake clears on, and would know how bad it is to give the town an extra mislim.

Datisi would need to explicitly sign off on a plan that you explicitly don't think he would make, a plan that would basically guarantee his death by giving the town an extra mislim that he could avoid by just...killing literally anyone not being protected.

it's not paranoia, it's mechanical efficiency and optimal play... and avoids bad worlds we lose in given our current status

You know what's more mechanically efficient than eliminating a slot that was already town by every metric?

Eliminating in the PoE!

[mastina]

mastina im ngl. ur ability to flip any good counter argument with ur logic judo that i can't wrap my head around.

It's almost like I'm actually using good logic of my own which so happens to actually be better logic than the wrong logic I am pushing back against!

[mastina]

Is it "LLD Suspected you"? Is that the great sin?

Oh that's definitely a sin because you've PROVABLY not fucking read the Private Topic YOU FUCKING HAVE ACCESS TO. Thanks for the reminder.

[mastina]

The plan continues to give us another cop who can do more checks and ICs

And consolidates council power even further rather than keeping it distilled and distributed.

While also not shrinking the pool today.

In contrast, an elimination in the pool can outright win the game--a scum flip clears Datisi; a scum guilty from Datisi clears Datisi; scum killing Datisi clears Datisi. There's literally three ways to have Datisi be cleared

without

risk, without the hazard of consolidated town power.

We already CAN rely on the information we have already.

The lack of kill last night effectively already confirmed no scum on the council.

Killing the council is explicitly doing exactly what the scum wanted.

I've no desire to further the scum wincon, thankyouverymuch.

If I'm wrong about that, killing Datisi now doesn't cost us a thing.

Except the things it costs us like an elimination on scum, a forced kill on a scumspect, keeping the town power diluted rather than consolidated, etc.

[mastina]

IFF you blindly believe Datisi is town

Who said anything about blindness?

It's called all the fucking evidence. I'm not being blind, the people pushing Datisi ignoring the mountain of reasons for him to be town are the ones who are fucking blind.

Datisi is town by play.

Datisi is town by last night.

Datisi has every reason to be town--and no reason to be scum.

[mastina]

You arrogantly act as if your solve is the only solve that matters and your world is the only one which is true but it's not.

You're literally saying what you're doing.

You're acting like YOUR solve is the only one which matters, ignoring the fucking evidence which shows why it's a shitty ass idea to satiate YOUR paranoia and yours alone.

[mastina]

In what world does a scum team comprised of some variety of me/GuiltyLion/Enchant/furtive/Drapion/Roden ever kill Firebringer? In what world does that happen???

In the world where scum killed Lukewarm the holder of the tracker, MathBlade the holder of the tracker, and Andresvmp the holder of the tracker, when Firebringer holds the tracker now?

[mastina]

See I think wolves be manipulating cause like I think it’s fucking stupid to vote Dat XyLo or day before XyLo cause we could have already resolved everything and be in a way better position before.

Well as it so happens, with 13 instead of 12 alive, the day before lylo isn't for two days, with lylo a full

three

days away.

We can wait until 11p.

[mastina]

Dat said Lady is Town in case you missed it.

Yes? Where the fuck is the idea I'm saying otherwise coming from? What are you reading giving you that impression.

Lady LambdaDelta is town.

Her followers are not. (Especially since at least one or two of them

are convinced she was scum with Datisi

and have not corrected that narrative in spite of the evidence to it.)

[mastina]

Btw since it finally ended, I can now mention that this was the third game in the trifecta telling me to just quit playing as mastina. Two town, then this.

I already mentioned the stress of Warrior Cats and why that game broke me,
But concurrently there was another towngame destroying me.

And those two in tandem as town, plus this game as scum, have just made me throw up the white flag. It's not worth it. It just isn't.

Meanwhile: Firebringer tracks Mastina

I mean I read before the end of the night that you as the tracker master of gold could track, I just got the 50/50 wrong. I thought that if you were gonna track one of Titus/me it'd be Titus because you had me as town, so you did good there. I lost the wifom battle. (Not that it'd have meant much, mind you.)