Paradise Lost - [Game Over]

[Elbirn]

Spoiler: Mandatory Introductory Fluffpost

Good Afternoon all, few familiar faces here, most of you I haven't played with before. So, hello all, look forward to playing with you ^_^

Let's see...Arcangel and Seraphim = Angelic names, they can be town for now. Hm. Grapes = Grapes of Wrath = Wrath = Evil = Kill it.

VOTE: Grapes

[Elbirn]

@Equinox/Farside: What's the skinny on the Mollie replacement? Does she have a tendency to flake when she rolls scum, or what?

[Elbirn]

I'm not a hundred percent up to speed on your fancy lingo. I get wotc = wisdom of the crowds = can pm mod to request someone not play. Didn't the signup thread said mod would use "Wisdom of the one", and if yes, what's the difference?

Either way Mollie replacement is a better case than grapes. I mean, I love grapes. They're probably my second favorite fruit. And have you tried eating glass? It's not a fun time, I assure you. You'll be picking tiny shards out of your gums for weeks.

UNVOTE: Grapes
VOTE: Glass

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn
Do you subscribe to the idea submitted by farside in post 18? (ie. you find it suspect that mollie replaced out when she did).

If so, why do you think it is more likely that mollie would replace out as scum than as town?
Do you think Farside knows enough about Mollie to accurately deduce what would make her feel busy/overwhelmed?

@lufan
If it was Farside's post that piqued your interest, I would like your answers as well.

Farsides post was an influence, yes. I suppose I don't know that Mollie would be more likely to replace out when rolling scum, but I like wagon rides and Equinox/Farside made sense. Farsides statement that Mollie isn't busy based on her posting habits on her made me wonder about Mollie; if she didn't replace out due to a lack of time, then it would make sense that her replace out was based on receiving a role she did not want...I suppose the gap in reasoning here is that we don't know that she wouldn't want to roll scum. (Though I'd like to note that Redcoyote asserts AFTER my vote, in 95, that Mollie hates playing as scum and is capable of playing lots of games and thus presumably can handle herself without being overwhelmed.)

As for your second question, I suppose I don't know enough about either of them to say that Farside would know what makes her feel overwhelmed...And I suppose the same could be said for RedCoyote's claim regarding Mollie as well. And in Katsukis post 33 (quoted next), s/he(?) states she replaced out of other games as well.

Hm.
UNVOTE:

Who knows. She recently replaced out of other games too so it may be a sitewide thing.

Lets lynch AA first, then I will discuss what our optimal strat this game is.

So is this a grudge vote or what? What's your beef with AA?

We no lynch until the Angel's kill doesn't go through.
Then the Angel claims and we are reduced to mountainous w/ a bulletproof IC who still has all the input of all the dead town.
We get no sin until then so the sin counter only goes up from that point.

As pointed out by everyone else, this isn't really the best idea. But I feel like this was put out there with good intentions, and on a surface level it makes sense; we lose if we get sin, so let's ensure that we can't get sin. Leaning town on Gaiden.

[Elbirn]

hi

VOTE: sakura

having a difficult time resonating with their posts

What even is this

[Elbirn]

What even is this

A scum read.

On that note do you happen to have any of your own? You seem content so far putting most of you energy into speculating why mollie replaced out. Which at the end of the day is wifom..

Yes but a scumread based on what? All you said in that post was that her posts "don't resonate with you", and not only am I not hip to your jive, but whatever that means, it seems to be quite lacking in substance. It's just "I don't like their posts" without any reasoning, and it struck me as odd. Your above quoted post elaborates on this however, so we kewl.

Do I have any scumreads? Not really. I've found that I'm pretty terrible at scumhunting, so I'm trying to townhunt instead. So far Equinox, Muffin, and Gaiden are town.

If you were to put a gun to my head and demand scumreads, I'd say that Katsuki isn't looking good so far. ISO him/her, it's all either trying to lynch AA for some indiscernible reason, or fluff. Lufan is likewise pretty much no content yet high posts. And I liked what you had to say about Sakura.

As for that Mollie comment, that's not what WIFOM is, and I think it's kinda crappy to try to discredit a line of thought with buzzwords. Do you not think that the Mollie replace out is noteworthy?

[Elbirn]

@everyone not voting, how come?

(Idk who scum is yet. I could eeny meeny minny moe someone right now, but I really wanna go play Mortal Kombat right now / read this thread and vote tomorrow.)

[Elbirn]

Why are our votes so spread out :/
Our biggest wagon right now is 2? Now I'm not saying we should rush a lynch because the whole sin mechanic makes that riskier than usual. But it worries me that we haven't come close to any sort of consensus yet or even a pressure wagon. Is this because of the mechanic or are we just unable to get our shit together?

VOTE: Elbirn

So what took you so long? You pointed a finger at me in your first post, but it took you until now to place a vote. Can you explain your thought process? What changed between then and now?

------------------

VOTE: Lufan131

Pings me as scum, and I like what RedCoyote said in 214. Baaaahhhhhhh.
This probably sounds dumb but Lufan's tone seems really...Awkward. Like everything's worded awkwardly. Carefully, perhaps. Like someone who is being cautious. Add to that the fact that pretty much every post is fluff. I don't like it.

[Elbirn]

Every hour someone says "Why'd u vote glass? What do you mean you checked?"
I'm sick of answering it.

The only thing that really happened between your unvote and your post before it was me voting for you. And I said nothing about you voting for Glass.

This is a poor reaction to pressure, and scum attempting to appease town on top of that.

[Elbirn]

Scum reading elb currently. Comes across as uncertain compared to the last game we played together he pushed what he felt.

Scumreading Elbirn is a towntell.

Also could someone please explain to me what's the deal with Elbirn? i don't see why he's being wagonedm he asked what was the problem was with mollie's replace out and got his question answered so he decided to follow suit, am i missing something super obvious or what.

Defending Elbirn is a scumtell.

[Elbirn]

Scum reading elb currently. Comes across as uncertain compared to the last game we played together he pushed what he felt.

Scumreading Elbirn is a towntell.

Also could someone please explain to me what's the deal with Elbirn? i don't see why he's being wagonedm he asked what was the problem was with mollie's replace out and got his question answered so he decided to follow suit, am i missing something super obvious or what.

Defending Elbirn is a scumtell.

Because you're scummy?
Are you actually for real or is this a joke?

Not really, it was a sunday and I didn't have much time, so I went for a quickshitpost with intent to elaborate later.

1. So Far and I played a game together recently. In that game, by the time we hit Day 2 I had a hypothetical scum team in mind and I pretty much tunnelled them to death, threw theatrics and nonsense everywhere and confidently asserted my own rightness all the live long day. I was Vanilla town in that game. Far was also town, and was one of the two people that I harped on all day, so she's personally familiar with being on the receiving end of that. In my defense the other person WAS scum (which I only figured out having just played with that person as scum) and Far was totally scummy. But that's where the "confidence" came from. Here, it's Day 1 and I have no idea, no information and no meta on anyone but her.

Why I like what Far has said in regards to me this game: I like that she is using our previous game to get a read on me. She's analyzing my behavior and what she would expect my behavior to be if I were town. My gut says this is Town-far using past experience to sort me, rather than scum-far trying to push a mislynch.

Why she's wrong: This is an entirely different scenario; we are 3 rl days into this game, and I have no information to go off of yet. When I think I've

definitely

nailed scum, you will all hear about it. Over and over and over again. And when no one listens to me, I will throw temper tantrums until someone does.

2. People who defend me have a tendency to flip scum. Scum have buddied my ass right into a win more than once, so I call it out when I see it. Hell I call it out when I see even the vaguest hint of it happening. I'm also just generally wary of anyone who defends anyone else rather than letting them speak for themselves. Sakura does in fact get scum points for questioning my wagon.

[Elbirn]

@277

Spoiler: mfw

In this post, townreading, agreeing with a point, and buddying/defending are all the same thing. lolokay.

Alright, let's break this down point by point then.

1.

Their hydra was in fact liking your slot at the start of the game around Post 119, and let's see what they flipped:

Valkyrie Mollie, Borogove, Vanilla Town, survived.

Townreads are not buddying.

2.

Now here's another fun fact from that game:

So Tier what is your case against Elbirn?

BRantz, Mome Rath, Vanilla Town, lynched Day 1.

Did you miss the part where I was on BRantz lynch wagon and already had him as scum at this point for other reasons?

3.

To TSO. you said nothing but good things about me, then threw it out the windown with "elbirn trys Too hard to be town"? Literally what? If you read any of my games

you'd see I play this way every game.

The bolded from that game doesnt really mesh well with what you just stated, in your post, in addition:

I am saying the playstyle you use is easy to townread

Was directed at you, in which case, why do you find it a scumtell for people defending you?, it doesnt make any sense, while he wasnt exactly townreading you, he said your playstyle was "Easy to townread" so walk me through why you'd think town wouldn't defend you then? Oh right, they would.

My "I play this way every game" bit, and the comment of TSO regarding it, is a reference to my own activity level. I.E. I'm very active. I.E., I am a "Tryhard". Activity level can fluctuate and doesn't really reflect alignment imo; that's an assertion that HE made, when HE said that I am "Easy to townread". So why are you judging my own thoughts/opinions based on someone else's thought/opinion? That does not make any amount of sense.

4.

Elbirn - Town read, asking good questions.

Witness Protection, Nameless Hero, Town Sword-Holder, survived.

Townreads are not buddying.

5.

3/3 so far, where's the scum Townreading/Defending you.

Ooooo, ya got me. I was townread by town, so logically I should not actually believe that scumbuddying happens.

Oh. Wait. That doesn't make any fucking sense.

6.

With at least these 3 townies townreading you/defending you, I'm surprised you didn't push them at all on that game because apparently defending you is a scumtell, which makes me believe you're full of BS

While you're reading through my games, why don't you go read Mini 1642 where scum buttbuddied me to win the game. Maybe I actually really

am

wary of buddying and avoid it like the plague, instead of just making up that I believe that for...God knows what indiscernible reason?

7.

You went and at least read your scumspect's meta of at least 1 game, to notice that he was probably town and defend it, You had 1 game with mollie and didn't even analyze their meta or checked another game to confirm what farside and Equinox had mentioned here.

Muh burden of efficiency.
I should have checked another game to ensure that Mollie actually doesn't like being scum, or that she really has had a lull in activity on site? Gee, it's almost as if I took their comments at face value because I didn't expect someone to blatantly lie about something that could very easily be doublechecked. Outrageous!

Also, You read the game, so you know that I didn't actually give enough of a damn to metadive. I just so happened to have been reading a game that he was playing in, due to other reasons. I didn't go out of my way to find a reason to townread him.

8.

- You are being very passive in here because apparently you don't have any scumreads, but there you kept your vote on someone at least during D1, even if it was your RVS vote, here you removed your vote when you got attacked and haven't placed it anywhere.

I didn't have any scumreads after a mere 3 days, and my RVS vote was removed, so I'm scum.

Okay.

and haven't placed it anywhere.

Actually you did place it on lufan, but i don't see you "throwing tantrums and what nots" to get others to follow you.

Aww I'm sorry, I mean...I *guess* I can push on your scum buddy a little bit harder if it'll make you happy? Maybe you two should talk in the scum PT first though, make sure it's okay with him too. I don't wanna overwhelm the little guy, he's cracking under what little pressure there is anyway.

[Elbirn]

Yeah there's a lot I want to comment on and not enough time to do it, for now I'd like to say on the topic of No lynching: I'm against it. I don't think having sinless townies is some kind of gamebreaking strategy, and I don't know that having lots of townies that can communicate with angel is that much of a benefit. I'd rather keep a position of town making 2/3 of the kills, rather than scum having 1/2 of the kills.

So if you could all just pile up on the Lufan wagon, that'd be swelllllll.

[Elbirn]

Jesus Christ you people can talk. I'm working on a post, for those of you who have asked me questions and/or think I'm being a lurksack. But wading through the past 10 pages of nonsense is gonna take time.

For the record Kat's push on AA9 is shitty, borderline offensive, and if I didn't want Lufan dead I'd be pushing for a policy lynch of him. Kat V AA9 flamewar is just destructive nonsense that is disrupting this town, and it's pretty fucking annoying. Kat, knock it off or replace out.

[Elbirn]

@Sakura Hana

280

So I wanna sum this up really quick, because this semantic bullshit war went nowhere. We simply have to agree to disagree on one thing, you think that a mere townread is buddying, I do not. Your entire argument basically seems to be that I must be making up what I believe, because past experience should indicate that what I believe is wrong. This rubs me the wrong way because instead of pointing these things out to say "Okay Elbirn, but there were these instances where this didn't happen, maybe your idea is wrong and you should reevaluate your stance based on empirical evidence", you immediately jump to "you can't actually believe that because it's wrong!". The first comes from a standpoint of wanting to have a constructive discussion, the second comes from wanting to have a reason to scumread me. I don't like it. Was my reasoning for calling you scum for "defending me" kinda shit? Probably. Your overall reaction to it is what really stinks though.

@Equinox

Elbirn, it seems from post 279 that you are reading Sakura Hana as scum. If that's the case, do you think the motivation to go through someone's old games would be more likely to come from scum, more likely to come from town, or neither (please specify)? Why?

As pointed out by everyone else, this isn't really the best idea. But I feel like this was put out there with good intentions, and on a surface level it makes sense; we lose if we get sin, so let's ensure that we can't get sin. Leaning town on Gaiden.

What makes you feel that SXTLHGaiden was pushing his plan with "good intentions"?

1. I don't think effort should be treated as alignment indicative. Could a Town-Sakura have gone through an old game of mine to find evidence against me? Certainly. Could a Scum-Sakura have gone through an old game of mine to find evidence against me? Certainly. You...Seem to imply that you think otherwise?

2. Because I felt it came from a town mindset. I read his idea and immediately thought "Ho shit, I wish I thought of that, that completely removes one of scums win conditions." I get where he's coming from. I disagreed with it after thinking it over a little bit and reading what Muffin had to say after analyzing it, but I still feel like it was an honest attempt from town to gain an advantage. Also I just don't see scum putting that radical an idea out there.

@Albert B. Rampage

I don't think you're scum, I mean, you are on the best wagon after all. But 306 & 310 = hot garbage. 2nd person posting is a reason to scumread? Wha?

@Farside22

Before I forget my scum read on elb as I said is part meta but first you have as I said prior his back off of the wagon when push by Equinox here he says Me or Mollie well enough.
The very next he ask glass about mollie
Wtf response will he have replacing the spot? I sure don't know grapes, does he know Mollie better?
Plus the questions he's asked this far are pure fluff questions that I can't see giving any alignment info.
As for the other game we were in I was town reading elb early I recall in the game, don't remember why, but I do remember an early town read on him that game.

I'm not certain what you mean in your first sentence...That second part, I didn't ask Glass about Mollie, I asked Grapes about Mollie. Glass = Mollie replacement, Grapes = Grapes. So if you were using that as a reason to scumread, y'all got yourself confused. Can you point to questions I asked that you thought were "pure fluff", maybe point out what makes them bad questions? Aaaand finally, does not having an immediate townread on me really make me scum?

@Grapes:

Not all that interested in an Elbirn lynch. Some of his posts rub me the wrong way but they're more a clash of character than anything I think. I'm sure Elbirn is a decent dude but he does come of as an asshole so far for whatever reason.

Other than that his content is alright though. I can follow his thought process pretty well and he's answered substantially for most things thrown at him.

@Sakura, you seem to enjoy meta. At least that's what I gather from a good chunk of your posts. However you should know that it doesn't hold much weight for me, I'm not faulting you for using it for leads and such.

But just because I don't agree with using it, at least a lot of the time, doesn't mean that I can't see it being misused.

Taking examples from one game and comparing it here is faulty logic. People change and especially if you consider join date, people can get better or change play style fairly quickly, even from back to back games right?

#277 is a good example of cherry picking one game and using it to paint somebody scum. It felt to me like you had already figured Elbirn for scum before you even made that post, which is odd considering he was a null read for you on that very same page.

Defending Elbirn is a scumteohwhatsthepoint, I actually like what's being said here. Not the pro-Elbirn stuff, but the anti-Sakura stuff.
Gameface = off, do I really seem like an asshole? Like, ow. I've gotten "pretentious" and "cold" before, but never "Asshole" ;_; I-I just take the game super cereal, I swear gaiz

(Post Break, currently at top of page 15)

[Elbirn]

@Sakura Hana

While my townread on lufan has so much as dissapearead since the start of the game, i'm not really enthusiastic about voting in a wagon 2 of my scumreads are voting in.

This is a pretty good reason to avoid bussing your buddy, good job! But seriously, you should get on board the Lufan train to lynch-ville.

@Glass

@Elbirn
I see you promoting the lufan wagon, but what do you think about the AA wagon?

The AA wagon is clearly vastly inferior. It's made up of a troll, a scumread, and some other third thing. The case on her from what I can tell consists solely of Katsuki repeatedly insisting that AA is scum from the RVS stage, and has pretty much zero merit. Is there an

actual

case that I've missed? Cuz there's no way I'm voting there if no one can give me a reason to, AA really hasn't struck me as scum.

@Katsuki

We are not no-lynching today.

I still haven't had a chance to discuss optimal strat but I was planning on holding off until tomorrow so.

K tell us all what your brilliant plan is right now. I'm all ears. Go on. Spill.

Btw Katsuki what i am rather interested in is why you are "unable" to discuss your supposed super pro town strategy before AA9 is lynched

The strat is independent to AA. I just think it'd be more productive to lay out my strat tomorrow as oppose to today.

Only reason I didn't state it at game start was that I wanted to see what you guys would say so I could analyze but obviously I'm not gonna catch up on stuff I didn't read and there's actually a fair amount of content to discuss that I don't need to throw more stuff into the mix.

Think of it as that I think there are obvious scum that need lynching and that I don't want to muddle the pool with optimal strategy talk. I will definitely talk about it tomorrow because it needs to happen then.

Oh, I get it now, there is no strategy and you have nothing to contribute to this game. Lovely.

+1 for 386, but she needs to connect the dots for me on Elbrin.

Which dots? The vote switch was way back in post 20, with the theory being that scum are nervous about sheeping wagons and thus will run their mouth a bit when switching.

Jiminy Jillickers Batman, THIS is it? This is why there are votes on me? I'm being wagoned for a poor attempt at humor in RVS? And you people wonder why I act like a coldhearted asshole in game, every time I have fun I get scumread for it.

Everyone who isn't Farside, you have literally no reason to be on my wagon. Stop frontin' and go lynch Lufan.
Farside, you keep voting me. You're the only person who's given a good reason to do so. You've earned that right gurl.

@YouknowwhoeverIguess

Everyone's starting to realize (skimmed, and already saw points by Equinox, sakura and farside) how scummy AA's play is yet we still can't seem to get a wagon going...

IKR... They've all said how much they dislike how they play, yet still won't do anything about it.

Does no one else feel the fakeness radiating off of this post?

Don't feel like quotewalling anymore, but Tere is reaaaally interested in Lufan and I don't know why. Tere, why is this? There are plenty of other lurkers, why do you reach out to Lufan so often?

[Elbirn]

In case I haven't made it clear I want Lufan dead today. I could also go for Sakura. Massive has done nothing today, if a "Well why the fuck not" wagon popped up on him I could go for it but I don't see anything specifically scummy aside from turbolurking the day away, and we have plenty of those lying around. Muffins...Where the hell is Muffins, he fell off the face of the earth. Muffins come back pls. Who the hell is TheBulge. Bulge, you should get in here too.

I will not lynch Equinox, RedCoyote, Lalaladucks, Farside22, Grapes, Glass, Albert B. Rampage, or SXTLHGaiden today.

It's 4 AM, I'm tired, I counted and there's 17 people in this game but I've only expressed an opinion on 12 and I can't for the life of me figure out who the other 5 are. I'm going to bed.

[Elbirn]

Can I just get an indication of who actually agrees with the No Lynch plan?

I know Gaiden wants to NL.
I know I don't want to, Muffin doesn't want to.

Other people: Gaiden's NL plan - yay or nay?

If we No Lynch, Lufan will live! And that will make the Elbirn very sad.

[Elbirn]

I'm going to be honest, I won't vote for someone I don't think is scum. Period.

Then you're just dumb. All that would theoretically do is hurt town because if the player was going to be lynched, he's still going to be lynched regardless of your vote and your stance is just bad for the overall sin factor.

Like. It's just dumb. Maybe in some other game it would make sense but not in this one.

...I'm thinking about it, and this part only makes sense if RedCoyote was scum and left the voting to townies to gain sin. If RedCoyote is town, thennnn him being on the wagon or off the wagon still results in the same amount of town sin. This post presumes a scum-RedCoyote. Is there something you know that we don't, Muffin?

[Elbirn]

I say again, Jesus Christ you people can talk. Someone ask me a question or something. ENGAGE ME!

Lufan wagon remains best wagon. Massive wagon is a solid contender, and RedCoyote makes a good case, but the Lufan wagon is sparkly and has golden rims. You should all help push the Lufan wagon.

Actually, realtalk, I kinda feel bad for turbolynching Lufan. It almost feels like he genuinely doesn't know how to play and we're just ruining his time here.

Hm. RedCoyote, you say Massive and Lufan could be partners. How so? Earlier you mentioned that you wouldn't push for a Massive lynch Day 2 if Lufan flips town here; what happens if we lynch Massive today? If he flips town, what do you think of Lufan? If scum?

Other topics
I don't see the case for scum-RedCoyote. Like at all.
AA9 is town. I really don't see why she would fight so hard against Lufan's wagon if she were scum...I guess they could be scumbuddies, but why be so blatant about it?

Idk.
Fuckit I want a Lufan flip.

[Elbirn]

You're sailing on two boats.. You can't do that.. Pick your side.. If you think massive wagon is a solid and what is stopping you moving your vote there? And again you also said you feel back for turbolynching lufan and yet you want him to flip... you're being very opportunist btw. I really don't feel good about this post!!!

Yeah that isn't what opportunist is. I did pick my side, I want a Lufan flip. If you really want me to vote Massive, you'll say something more than just "Vote here because I say so and if you don't I'm gonna chainsaw you."

What did you like about redcoyote's massive case?

The part where he said the things.

No but really, his sheep on farside was a bad vote, 348 was a bad post, Red's TL;DR at the end makes sense.

[Elbirn]

AA9 might actually be scum but at this point I want her partner (Lufan) dead more than I want her dead.

OH, who's ready for irrelevant nonsense that no one will agree with?
So that whole back and forth between Katsuki and Albert? I was thinking about it, and if scum has daychat, then if those two were scum, why wouldn't they have boring irrelevant discussion in their pt? Ipso Facto, at most one of them are scum, but not both. *Drops mic*

[Elbirn]

lufan, do you have anything to say that might make us think you actually aren't scum?

Nah. The flip will let you know that it was wrong, though. I know I'm town, and if you don't believe me, it's your choice.

Lynch it.

[Elbirn]

OH SHIT THOSE WHO DIE GO UP TO HEAVEN.

OPTIMAL PLAY IS TO LYNCH ME AND IT WILL SATISFY AA'S DESIRE TO NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH ME ANYMORE.

SO YOU GUYS SHOULD VOTE FOR ME
AND THEN NO-LYNCH EVERY DAY THEREAFTER.

GAME = WON
Now please help get me lynched I can't self-vote if I want to go up (which I am finding incredibly amusing considering how you can't go up if you commit suicide).

Katsuki if you are town, then you should realize this plan sucks because...Well I mean that's self evident, lynching town sucks. And everyone who votes you will wind up with sin. Which also sucks.

This post DOES make sense if you're scum shooting for easy towncred by suggesting everyone pile on you though.

[Elbirn]

many such helpful thanks much Tere

wha

[Elbirn]

It wasn't even a sentence.

[Elbirn]

Someone convince me that no lynch is a good idea. Is the sin limit really going to be that much of a factor? Is giving angel a dead mason buddy that much of a buff? The way I look at it either way he has two by the start of D2 actually...

Scenario 1: D1, we no lynch. Scum kills someone, Angel kills someone. If Angel hits town, has 2 buddies. Angel hits scum, Angel has only 1 buddy but who cares we hit scum.
Scenario 2: D1, we lynch X. X flips town, X goes to heaven. Scum kills someone, presumably with sin. Angel kills someone. If angel hits town, Angel has 2 buddies. Etc.
Scenario 3: D1, we lynch X. X flips scum. Hooray! Scum kills someone, angel kills someone, we have 2 buddies for Angel, or not, IDK.

So tl;dr all that matters is sin limit. Are we going to hit that if we keep mislynching instead of no lynching?

[Elbirn]

Oh boy, a bandwagon!

VOTE: ArcAngel9

@Everyone, this is L-2. No derphammers.

Ima make dinner, be back in a bit.

[Elbirn]

So I take it I'm the only one who doesn't buy that emotional outburst?

AA9, when you read this tomorrow, why didn't you hammer Lufan?

[Elbirn]

Hey Farside, who are you reading as scum? Aside from me.

[Elbirn]

Hey Farside, who are you reading as scum? Aside from me.

ABr and massive currently are my strongest scum reads.

Interesting. So what happened to your AA9 scumread from Day 1?

[Elbirn]

This quick wagon on AA is disturbing.
I'm staying off with my number 1 scum read aboard.

I mean, I could get it if you'd say you changed your mind after her whole outrage selfvoty drunk nonsense, but this was from before and seems a little off. You had several posts D1 where you pushed AA9, even over

me

for a span of time. Last thing I could find you say on her D1 indicated a scumread, and then this post happens today and it's "lel Elbirn's on that wagon, dats a bad wagon".

If I started a wagon on Massive, would that scumread disappear too?

[Elbirn]

UNVOTE:

Forgot to do that earlier. RC's comments on the AA9 debacle made me realize how dumb I am to not have understood that AA9 is practically conftown. Unless Equinox and AA9 are scumbuddies, and if they are, well then gg.

I don't see how Lufan's "gg gaiz" post = admitting guilt. Someone walk me through that.

[Elbirn]

The way I saw lufan's gg post, he thought he'd been lynched, so gave us a sad crying smiley and said 'gg everyone' like we'd caught him, guilty scum. This post just looks scummy af to me.

Idk man, when my best friends and neighbors groupmurder me in the city square I get pretty sad too. I don't see it being alignment indicative. *shrug*

[Elbirn]

Hey Farside, who are you reading as scum? Aside from me.

ABr and massive currently are my strongest scum reads.

Interesting. So what happened to your AA9 scumread from Day 1?

You forget I unvoted with kats attack on her.
I was considering that kats actions where making her emotional at the time.

This quick wagon on AA is disturbing.
I'm staying off with my number 1 scum read aboard.

I mean, I could get it if you'd say you changed your mind after her whole outrage selfvoty drunk nonsense, but this was from before and seems a little off. You had several posts D1 where you pushed AA9, even over

me

for a span of time. Last thing I could find you say on her D1 indicated a scumread, and then this post happens today and it's "lel Elbirn's on that wagon, dats a bad wagon".

If I started a wagon on Massive, would that scumread disappear too?

You seem to "forget" I voted you then.
You want to buss your buddy, let me know, I'll be happy to help.

I didn't forget that you unvoted her; you vote switched to me in 506. You said nothing about AA9 no longer being a scumread, just that Katsukis comments were unnecessary, and nothing of her emotional state. You justified your vote switch with "Elbirn's lurking", not "AA9 isn't a scumread any more." Then we get to D2 and AA9 wagon is bad because I'm on it.

Basically I can't decide if your reads are fabricated, or if you actually believe that a scumread being on a wagon is a justifiable reason for believing that the person being wagoned must be town.

So I take it I'm the only one who doesn't buy that emotional outburst?

Why? I'm aware that your opinion changed as of post 1225, but I want to know what your thinking was when you posted this.

I don't read AtE well and generally just have a negative reaction to it. All the boohoo woe is me schtick never pings me as town indicative.

[Elbirn]

Elb: When did you switch from your death lynch of Lulu to voting for AA?

Elb: I'm going to ask again.
What happened with your lulu scum read.
The only thing I found about AA was this.

AA9 might actually be scum but at this point I want her partner (Lufan) dead more than I want her dead.

OH, who's ready for irrelevant nonsense that no one will agree with?
So that whole back and forth between Katsuki and Albert? I was thinking about it, and if scum has daychat, then if those two were scum, why wouldn't they have boring irrelevant discussion in their pt? Ipso Facto, at most one of them are scum, but not both. *Drops mic*

Prior to this you were town reading her, what changed and why?

My Lufan vote changed with the start of Day 2...?

Around post 853, Angel's chainsawing rubbed me as a bit too over defensive. In thinking about the whole scenario I basically went from "Why would scum-aa9 be so blatant about defending a scumbuddy" to "Why would town-aa9 be so defensive of anyone"

What really got me voting for AA9 Day 2 over Lufan?

1. I like wagon rides
2. 1116 & 1117 happened. AA9 promised us a dead Lufan if necessary, posted a whole minute before Albert's post 1092 where he asked her to hammer, but yet was somehow not around to hammer?

As of 1225 I've updated my stance on AA9. From what I can gather she literally can't be scum unless she and Equinox are scum and planned the whole fakehammer thing, and Equinox is obvtown imo.

As for Lufan, I don't even know anymore. Can't talk about games in progress, but let's just say that now I'm starting to get the impression that this is just how Lufan plays. He's lynchbait. He needs to die at some point because he's basically a liability, but I don't want us to waste a lynch on him because I'm not 100% confident in him being scum. I'd really hope Angel would, in his/her infinite wisdom, vig him tonight.

--------------

So I'ma do this, because reading Lala's ISO, posts 1223 through 1241 is just awful. Sounds like nervous scum to me, and then at the first sight of pressure she ducks out. Nah. Also, ima sheep the shit outta Sakura's 1273 and 1286.

VOTE: Lalaladucks

[Elbirn]

I love that no one said anything about my case or thoughts thus far. :roll eyes:
I'm just going to sit here with my thumb up my ass and sheep people since no one gives two shits thus far.

For what it's worth I read your case against me, I just really don't care to comment on it because, well, it's about me. There's nothing to talk about. I could defend against it I guess but honestly it was pretty weak sauce. Basically what I got out of it was some burden of efficiency, "Elbirn is sheeping and sheeping is bad and a scumtell", a blanket insistence that I haven't actually done anything, and a lot of simply incorrect statements. It also doesn't help that your early towncred for scumreading me has worn off and I kinda think you're scum now.


-----

Yaknow, I think Sakura asked about me sheeping her too. So let me explain why. I'm pretty fucking terrible at this game. I've only won once. In my entire time here, I've correctly deduced scum once. One time. Uno. Fact is my newbie bravado has worn off and I've grown cautious, and I put a bit more stock into what others say. If you can give me a logically sound case for someone being scum, and I read it, and I grok it well enough that it becomes my own opinion/conclusion/analysis of the situation, why would I ever NOT sheep it?

So I'ma do this, because reading Lala's ISO, posts 1223 through 1241 is just awful. Sounds like nervous scum to me, and then at the first sight of pressure she ducks out.

Well the 2nd is just her stating that she's going to be V/LA, and the former seemed to me like she was going on about what RC seemed to imply about him being the only person townreading her, the nervous scum and ducking out come in other posts, so im not sure if you mislinked or smth, your vote is in the right place tho.

Also, ima sheep the shit outta Sakura's 1273 and 1286.

When did your read on me change enough to sheep my reasoning?

1. I think I meant to link 1233, but 1223 is around the point where Lala trips and drops her town mask imo. And I really meant that reading FROM that post through and including 1241, all of it, is just bad; not those two posts in particular. It reads like nervous newbscum. And then in 1241, Grapes starts to put the squeeze on her...And she peaces out? No, no this will not do at all.

2. I can't think of a decent reason to think you're scum frankly, early Day 1 I was against you but your latter posts were much better. You can town for now. And frankly even if I did think you were scum, based on how probably wrong I am about any given scumread, I'll still sheep the shit out of someone that makes sense. If it's right and gets scum, then we got scum AND my sheep is more likely town. Two birds one stone.

[Elbirn]

Is there an echo in here?

Farside where's your Albert case, you never posted it.

[Elbirn]

I want to heap a bunch of praise on AA9 because I'm impressed with her last few posts. A lot of what she's been saying is taking the words out of my mouth.

ABR, I will take the time to read your case more thoroughly. Please understand that I'm really put off with this game because I do not understand why lufan is being given a pass by a number of players. I think he's only gotten worse over time. I could understand if he had picked it up and started really getting aggressive and helping the town, but he's completely on auto-pilot just saying the things he thinks other players want to hear. That said, I appreciate you wanting to do your own thing and start up your own wagon on a player you feel strongly about (farside). I just hate that I'm expected to cast aside the effort I've put into this game and sheep others when I don't think the lufan situation was properly resolved. If my reads had been proven wrong, I'd be more than willing to concede to others... but nothing has come of what damn well should've happened D1.

Here's the thing, I don't want to lynch Lufan because, while he's been not exactly reassuring today, I'm trusting our Angel to vig him tonight due to how much of a headache he obviously is. I'm not confident in him flipping scum. I am fairly confident in him being confused newbtown. Either way, angel kills him tonight, saves us the trouble of a potential mislynch, and if he's town he gets to be masons with Muffin, Tere, and Angel, which would probably be a good way to teach him how not to be confused if they're so inclined to mentor him. That's a win all around for everybody.

[Elbirn]

I'm inclined to agree with Alberts assessment of Farside. I still like Lala for scum though. Albert, if I could vote twice, I would, I really would bae. </3

Katsuki, AA9 is never going to happen so please get with the program. Thanks.

Albert V. Sakura is nonsense and you two need to like kiss and make up, divisiveness isn't doing us any favors kthxbai.

[Elbirn]

Here's the thing, I don't want to lynch Lufan because, while he's been not exactly reassuring today, I'm trusting our Angel to vig him tonight due to how much of a headache he obviously is. I'm not confident in him flipping scum. I am fairly confident in him being confused newbtown. Either way, angel kills him tonight, saves us the trouble of a potential mislynch, and if he's town he gets to be masons with Muffin, Tere, and Angel, which would probably be a good way to teach him how not to be confused if they're so inclined to mentor him. That's a win all around for everybody.

1)Yuck
2)Why are trying to direct vig shots
3)Especially if you're 'fairly confident' that lufans' town?
4)Where's all this 'masons with the angel' stuff stemming from?

This doesn't even make sense.
Why should the Angel waste a vig kill on someone you don't even think is scum. Nonsense.

Jeez is this really so hard to get.
Show of hands, who wants Lufan to keep living? How would you feel with him in Lylo/mylo? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

K, thought so.
Now, keeping this games sin mechanic in mind, who wants to be on his lynch wagon knowing that there's a decent possibility that he's town, but he's just absolutely lost?

Premise 1. Lufan needs to be removed.
Premise 2. Lynching Lufan may be negative utility for town
CONCLUSION: Angel should vig Lufan

Y'all better stop frontin', this is literally optimal play.

Also @Grapes, a fart on you for pretending to townslip by not knowing that sinless villagers go to heaven and can communicate with Angel/each other.

[Elbirn]

Town

Sakura Hana
RedCoyote
Equinox
grapes
ArcAngel9
Albert B. Rampage

Not-Town

SXTLHGaiden
Katsuki
farside22
lalaladucks

IDK

Cho
lufan131
Glass
massive

[Elbirn]

that's 4 people not town there
seems like you caught all the scum
also, is there any particular order you placed those in?

Also, was ABR in not-town or IDK?
it's the only one out of order

I just copy/pasted the player list from the beginning, then sorted them by what I thought of them. So they're basically in no order. Sakura isn't exactly my strongest townread, for example.

Albert belongs in town imo. I think it's funny you don't disagree with my assessing you as not-town.

Anyone who is currently in IDK is either 1. Lufan, or 2. I need to go think about before putting them in either category, and I don't feel like doing that right now. But later.

[Elbirn]

elbir - who in your not town you would like to lynch today?

*shrug* take your pick. My preferred order would be Lala -> Farside -> Katsuki -> Gaiden.
Anyone who is not in that 4, I'm almost definitely not voting for today. Like my town list I feel pretty good about at the moment. The "IDK" list still needs to be sorted but I could be convinced to vote that way on some of them. I've already voiced my opinion on Lufan. Cho and Glass I have a good gut feeling about. Massive is kinda meh but I feel I owe him an ISO before judging.

[Elbirn]

but it is clear that you copied the list of live players then put them in each list top to bottom EXCEPT ABR

I....Guess so? I don't know what you're trying to get at here.
I think when I was doing this, I wound up cutting "Grapes/Arcangel" from the list cuz they were two townreads all neat and in a row, and then I went "Oh, Alberts still there, unsorted. Yeah he's town too."

So what's the analysis? I secretly don't think ABR is town?

[Elbirn]

no, right no it's that you are scum and used list to make your "is town" lists

Can you try this sentence again please? I don't get what you mean.

[Elbirn]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Katsuki

[Elbirn]

Wow.

So I guess Kat completely pulled the strings on that one... even from beyond the grave. You know, I dislike Kat's play this game, but the onus of that shot really falls on the angel for not standing up to Kat. I laid out the rationale for AA9 town about as clearly as I could possibly have done. I do not understand that shot at all, and I'm very disheartened with it. I'm guessing it's just someone that either hasn't been paying much attention to the game or let themselves completely be controlled by Kat. The same Kat that has been voting AA9 since page 1, post 17.

I'm guessing it's someone that read Kat as town and AA9 as scum... but, wow. I'm really shellshocked how anyone was still taking Kat seriously this far along into the game. I'm not going to vote until we get a claim. I think I know who is might be, but I was thinking he would've been better able to ignore Kat's nonsense. Well, I guess I'll just come right out and call it as Gaiden because I want the credit for calling it before he claims.

So Red, how is it that you know the Angel killed AA9?

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Elbirn]

Wow.

So I guess Kat completely pulled the strings on that one... even from beyond the grave. You know, I dislike Kat's play this game, but the onus of that shot really falls on the angel for not standing up to Kat. I laid out the rationale for AA9 town about as clearly as I could possibly have done. I do not understand that shot at all, and I'm very disheartened with it. I'm guessing it's just someone that either hasn't been paying much attention to the game or let themselves completely be controlled by Kat. The same Kat that has been voting AA9 since page 1, post 17.

I'm guessing it's someone that read Kat as town and AA9 as scum... but, wow. I'm really shellshocked how anyone was still taking Kat seriously this far along into the game. I'm not going to vote until we get a claim. I think I know who is might be, but I was thinking he would've been better able to ignore Kat's nonsense. Well, I guess I'll just come right out and call it as Gaiden because I want the credit for calling it before he claims.

So Red, how is it that you know the Angel killed AA9?

VOTE: RedCoyote

So I posted this and then realized there were like 2 pages after this post I hadn't read since day started. Bad habit of mine.

Let me elaborate. This post doesn't even consider the possibility that Scum killed AA9. I don't see how that could be unless you have insider information, i.e. you're scum, i.e. you know scum didn't kill AA9.

Also the angel fishing and open speculating rubs me the wrong way.

[Elbirn]

UNVOTE:

I've decided that I want the angel to claim. If RC actually scumslipped, then the scum did target the angel last night and so the scum already know who the angel is. I would like the confirmation that the angel did indeed shoot AA before lynching him.

Unless scum refrained from NK'ing last night so that they could try to get Angel to claim. What you're saying is reasonable but there's still the possibility of shenanigans.

[Elbirn]

UNVOTE:

The scumslip thing only makes sense if Angel killed AA9, and I really don't see how/why angel would have killed AA9. The more likely theory is that AA9's self hammer attempt was so convincingly town that team scum decided they had to kill her.

Therefore, Angel was roleblocked, might as well claim.
RC I'm sorry I doubted you bae

[Elbirn]

But if he were scum, he would know that scum killed AA9.

[Elbirn]

Going with the assumption that AA9 was a scumkill, which I believe to be the case

[Elbirn]

*Rubs temples*

This is confusing.

Scenario 1: Scum kills AA9, Roleblocks Angel

Scneario 2: Angel kills AA9, Scum targets Angel

If I'm not mistaken, these are the possibilities. I don't see scenario 2 happening, because AA9 was practically conftown yesterday, Angel killing AA9 doesn't make ANY sense. So scenario 1 happened. But if scenario 1 happened then RC didn't scumslip.

[Elbirn]

Also I'm starting to grow suspicious of everyone going "If the angel claims they shot AA9 then sure we will lynch RC" sounds like scum planning to sacrifice RC for the sake of figuring out who the Angel is...

But if my conclusion is correct, they already know who Angel is.

[Elbirn]

Null

farside idek

Look at this
Look at how disgusting this is

[Elbirn]

Care to contribute any readslist of your own rather than calling my one nullread disgusting?
No?
How about you keep your comments to yourself then.

Oh wow, that. That overdefensive reaction to me pointing out how gross it was for you to put one of your partners in your null reads.
Also, what is 1475. Oh, yes, my reads list. How'd that get there.

VOTE: Lalaladucks

[Elbirn]

Care to contribute any readslist of your own rather than calling my one nullread disgusting?
No?
How about you keep your comments to yourself then.

Oh wow, that. That overdefensive reaction to me pointing out how gross it was for you to put one of your partners in your null reads.
Also, what is 1475. Oh, yes, my reads list. How'd that get there.

VOTE: Lalaladucks

Oh, I didn't realise that your reads wouldn't change at all in 300 posts.
Thanks for the vote, looks nice on my resume!

That reads list came at the end of the last day phase. We are not even 24 real life hours into this day phase. All that's really changed is Angel and Katsuki are dead now.

[Elbirn]

Ok you know what, all this "But Sakura what if..." "But Sakura what if..." "BUT SAKURA, WHAT IF!"
I'm just going to save you the trouble of speculating and claim Angel and claim that i shot AA9 (as well as Tere).
There you have it.
I already explained why I shot Tere on D2. As for why I shot AA9, well you're correct that it was half influenced by a certain cupcake, I still also had my doubts on the slot and I figured that after all the self-hammer gambit that happened D2, there was no way she'd ever get lynched, so I decided to shoot there.
The reason i thought of no kill gambit is, why in the blue fuck would scum try to shoot me...

Anyway all 3 of them also want RC dead. And the bird with grinning teeth usually has very good reads past D1, i'd sheep that any day.
Also sorry Marquis, my reads have been all over the place this game, which also helped influence that shot.
I'd also like to apologize to AA9 for shooting her.

Huh. Well at least I get to feel validated for switching my read on you.

I don't agree with your decision to shoot AA9, especially with Lufan still being here (Seriously we're going to let this kid live to lylo aren't we), but if I think about that too much I'm probably going to throw a hissyfit at you, so I'm just going to say what's done is done and move on.

Curious, why do you think you were targeted for NK? Did you crumb angel anywhere, or was there anything you did to indicate you were angel? If not, was it because of your reads?

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Elbirn]

Meurgh I had the angel as Equinox.

Honestly I had a toss up between Equinox and Massive. I have no idea why. I don't even think Massive is town, but then I suppose that was the point, angel hiding among the scumzors to avoid attention. At any rate I never would have thought Sakura was angel.

[Elbirn]

Also can we PLEASE not end the day so fast this time, the birds in my head have a hard time keeping up as it is.

Yeah I'm gonna be honest I had no idea that my vote was the hammer, and I'm very glad RC flipped scum because I would have felt like a right ass if he didn't.

Did you crumb angel anywhere, or was there anything you did to indicate you were angel?

If i had i would've been roleblocked, not shot.

If not, was it because of your reads?

I never trust my own reads, and even if i did, i'm pretty bad at getting my scumreads lynched, if my reads caused me to get shot, then scum doesn't know me and they were accurate, and I kinda doubt both of these situations apply.

Well fact remains that you were either shot at at complete random, or for getting a bit too close with your reads. I think we can start there. Yesterday also needs a reread, I seem to recall certain someones opposing the RC wagon because "scumslips are a bad reason to lynch someone" but I don't know who. I wanna say Glass or Grapes, I keep getting them confused. I'm about to go to work so I'll need to do my reading tonight. :/

Also, uhh i'd like to think that RC's insistance in getting lufan lynched could point towards lufan being town.

Yeah I was kinda hoping someone smarter than me could decipher the RedCoyote/Lalaladucks/Lufan love triangle. I want to believe that we live in a wonderful, majickal world where all three are scum putting on an elaborate song and dance for us, but I'm guessing that's not very likely. I'd say either Lufan was being bussed hard and town-lala got caught up in it, or Red and Lala are scum trying to push the worlds easiest mislynch.

[Elbirn]

Oh bollocks, I thought words and didn't say the words I thought. When I said "you were either shot at at complete random, or for getting a bit too close with your reads", I had meant to say after that, that I found the former unlikely. So by "I think we can start there" I meant we should be looking at your reads the previous day.

[Elbirn]

I squinted pretty hard at RC's post to open the day and still didn't see a scumslip. I mean maybe if you stretch it, twist it, push it and pull it and make about 5 assumptions then maybe,

maybe

you could ship it as a scumslip. Otherwise, quit pushing that shit.

Ah, there it is.

VOTE: Grapes

[Elbirn]

The kitty bird says to never lynch massive, something about digging into RC's ISO, she wants grapes or Elbirn instead.
And for the love of god im tired of asking her and getting yelled at every single time, so I probs wont ask her again @_@

So...Are you allowed to be a bit more explicit about what they're saying, or does it have to be intentionally vague per super secret angel rules?

That sounded snarky. It wasn't supposed to be. I'm genuinely wondering if you're allowed to elaborate, because I'd really like to know what makes Massive essentially town-clear to said kitty bird.

[Elbirn]

Alright, so part 1 of my investigation, reviewing SakuraHana's scumreads Day 2. Because this was overlooked, and I feel is the most probable reason she was shot at.

Best I could tell, there were two people Sakura expressed suspicion of that day phase: Lalaladucks, and yours truly. She showed a minor suspicion of Gaiden in 1471, I think someone else pointed this out as well. I don't know if scum-gaiden would attempt a kill on Sakura based on that one post, espeically considering she reached out to him in a townie manner around 1505? She also had a minor argument with ABR but never stated a scumread, then at another point implied myself & Albert were the scumteam, possibly Massive as well. I mention this because transparency, we can go over this if anyone wants to ask about it, but what I want to talk about is lala.

Read, if you would, Sakura's 1152 1234, 1273, & 1286.
The last two are especially important, they're where Sakura sums up her case on Lala and, imo, pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Like, I don't even have anything more to add to this case. I agreed with her case when it happened, and then the next night Sakura is targeted for a nightkill? Throw in her camaraderie with RedCoyote this whole game and some negative reactions from her Day 3, and we've got scum on a platter.

After rereading all of that, I'm more confident in scum-ducks then scum-grapes; but frankly I'm feeling that they're both scum. As for Lufan, he could have been bussed hard by two partners, but I don't feel like scum would be that blatant. Like RC's flip would have given us the whole scumteam. Doesn't make sense. Also, I still need to refresh myself on Day 3, but I seem to recall liking Farsides stance towards the RC wagon when he flipped, so she might not be a scumread anymore. But yeah. Tomorrow morning I'll see if I can draw any conclusions from D3's chatter.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalaladucks

[Elbirn]

That sounded snarky. It wasn't supposed to be. I'm genuinely wondering if you're allowed to elaborate, because I'd really like to know what makes Massive essentially town-clear to said kitty bird.

Well i'm only allowed to paraphrase so that's what im trying, when i was asking her about her conclusions or about how she got to it... well let's just say that it didn't end up pretty at all... but from what I understand she was using the fact that RC wanted to lynch both massive and lufan and is saying that they should never be lynched. The bird with teeth and me disagree about coming to that conclusion, however i agree about lufan being most likely town.

In the end i never got how she came to the conclusion since she just threw it at me and we ended up arguing about D1 stuff, I got annoyed and almost left the game, and I wasn't even planning on posting here until I felt better about it. So I still got no idea where the scumreads on Grapes and you come from.

Yeah I was starting to feel like that's what was going on (the whole paraphrase thing that is). I don't really agree with the conclusion regarding who RC wanted to lynch, his Massive case was very...Non committal. Like he put it out there, and then was like "Yeah I don't actually believe in this" and just dropped it, from what I remember. Sounds like wishwashy bullcrap stance scum take towards a partner, if anything. Plus that conclusion relies on the idea that scum don't bus, which is lol.

Uhm...I'm guessing you're not allowed to name names either. But I think I get who's who. Did cupcake-bird just peace out, or does he/she have anything to add?

[Elbirn]

Actually, thinking back to the massive case he was like "yeah this is why he's scum, BUT WE SHOULD STILL LYNCH LUFAN!" I remember asking him about it because I wasn't sure if he wanted massive or lufan. And after that it feels like he never ever mentioned massive again and just kept voicing wanting lufan dead.

Team scum is RedCoyote/Massive/Lalaladucks/Grapes

gg.

[Elbirn]

1881 1882 1883 1884 1886

It's like she admitted she's scum. Does no one else see this? This is caught scum, mad about being caught. Immediate and unnecessary anger at being voted for, tries to push me as a lynch based on "Elbirn's a big meanie" and "He mislynched once, that's a scum trait!" Literally what. Just....Fucking hell guys. This is today's lynch. If this isn't todays lynch then I quit mafia because jesusfuck how do none of you see this. Sakura nails lala as scum, lala tries to kill Sakura, I bring up the lala case and nail her and her entire team and she tries to get me mislynched based on literally *nothing*?

Elbirn Can't be scum with farside pretty sure. So if either of them is scum chances are the other one is town. I'd go farside for sure over elbirn though because

I THINK he's just really bad town

. His interactions with RC aren't the prettiest but at least they're there. And he was townreading him most of the game. Although I was too but his interaction with RC wagon yesterday fell pretty much like vote, unvote, hammer. Could have been thirsty for towncred, wanted to get on the wagon and saw the time to hop on waning.

Well fuck you too, guy.

And as for the RC wagon, tell me, everyone. *I* pointed out that RC scumslipped. I pushed the angle that the only way he would know that Angel killed AA9 would be if he were scum. Yeah, I did unvote at a point; I considered the possiblity that RC didn't scumslip because I truly believed that angel wouldn't kill AA9, because that doesn't make sense. When that turned out to be the truth, I hammered him. And I'll be frank, I didn't realize that was the hammer. But let's think, if I were scum, would I point out that my buddy scumslipped, and then kill him for it? If he were my buddy, wouldn't I be a bit more aware of how many votes were on him? A few others put the idea out there that scum might have no killed to draw an angel claim. If I were scum, then what in the blue hell is the scum motivation for my 1699?

RC could have easily not died yesterday. The whole thing reeked of "scum caught for wrong reasons", and I think team scum fought it. And hey, look at who was off Red's wagon yesterday?

VoteCount 3.3

RedCoyote [7] - Cho, farside22, lufan131, Sakura Hana, Glass, Albert B. Rampage, Elbirn [LYNCH]
lufan131 [1] -

RedCoyote

lalaladucks [1] -

massive

Glass [2] -

grapes, lalaladucks

Not Voting [2] - SXTLHGaiden, Equinox

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is May 10, 2015, at 10 AM PST.
Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2015-05-10 12:00:00)

Seriously guys, this is gg. We won. Line your votes up accordingly.

[Elbirn]

Dear albert,

Thank you for being my frand And always having my back

Love,
Elbirn

[Elbirn]

While I'm flattered that you think I'm so adroit, your scumread on me is wrong.
If I was scum I would never have associated in the way that I did with the Coyote :/
I'm also interested to see the math behind your estimation that I should've rolled scum this game, if you're willing to share
Cause it would've been fun to be a demon with the Hell mechanic!

and @ Lala's other fluff posts in the past few pages:

It's like she's gloating. She's sitting there with a shit eating grin, laughing at us because she knows she's not getting lynched. I am so tired of all of this "hurr scum won't do this, scum won't interact with a partner like this" bullcrap, Lala is caught scum and I believe that like I believe the sun is going to come up tomorrow.

I could *maybe* see compromising on Grapes or Massive, but real talk, I have maybe a tenth of the confidence in their being scum that I have in Lala.

No post in particular, but @ Albert, Farside isn't scum any more. Her attitude towards the RC wagon I quite like. Sorry but I don't have your back on that one. Would you compromise on Grapes/Massive if it came down to it?

Conclusions:
Town: Glass, Cho, Farside, Lufan.
Don't know / weird people: abr, lala
Scum: Elbirn, Grapes.

I'm scum and Lala isn't.
This literally causes me pain.

hmm... Marquis, Elbrin and ABR are sitting at 1 sin.
lalaladucks mislynch = +1 sin for them, meaning that scum just needs 3 more NKs to win (assuming that all 3 of you are town).
3 scum remaining, if all 3 of you are town and lalaladucks is a mislynch that means autolose for town.
So, there.

This is an important observation. Basically, me, cho, and ABR *don't* have a say in this because if we vote for any wagon and it's a mislynch then we auto lose. And that really, really blows.

[Elbirn]

Oh!
My!
Gosh!
Elbirn got one small thing correct!
I'm literally laughing my arse off at you right now!
But not because of the reasons you think!
It's because you're so fucking wrong!
You are very effectively demonstrating your ineptitude in scumhunting in saying that you are as certain about me being scum as you are about the sun rising.

I like the part where instead of ever saying anything about any point ever made about you, you just AtE'd and hyperbole'd all over the thread. Very convincing.

I'm sorry we're not on the same team this game, you seem like a nice person and I'd like to be town with you some time. <3

[Elbirn]

Well, I'm not going to lie, I wanted Lala today obviously. But I'm happy with this. And on the off chance Massive flips town, the wagon composition looks okay.

I'm content being the compromise lynch. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get a lynch without doubling up someone's sin. (Especially if Cho isn't going to move.)

This sounds like a scumpost to me. "Oh, it's okay if you guys lynch me, I don't mind :> But if you doooo your sin will go upppp"

Nah.
I think this was a good lynch.

[Elbirn]

I'm on phone and can't really post. But how much sin did Gaiden have?

[Elbirn]

I think he was gathering some townreads, I had started seeing him as town actually.

What's concerning me is why would he be killed when there were higher sin players.

[Elbirn]

Still on phone. I want grapes today.

[Elbirn]

>Says she's falling to apathy
>Makes a bunch of posts rambling
ok...

Anyway yeah, that's why i think Elbirn's scum.

You mean a blivet of fuckall?

Seriously I just got on a computer and am rereading, and I truly don't understand how you think you pulled anything alignment indicative out of that. You realize that if I get lynched the game is over. You're going to bet the game on this?

Elbirn: Playing a very passive game at D1 start, then latching onto lufan and doing... very little to push that as RC and Equinox were already pushing it.
His reason for joining AA9 wagon at D2 start sucked, also apparently he wanted another "accidental" hammer. 1225: Very silly way to explain why he didnt fell off the wagon sooner. 1290 is meh at best.
Also I remember he wanting to indict Gaiden on D4 due to my question as to why I got shot, then when i heavily townread Gaiden he suddenly dies? Gaiden wanted Elbirn dead at the end of D4 too...
His D3 still looks like busing to me...

Alright so that last bit was @ your "VCA". This is still pretty crap.

I pushed Lufan, a player who was pretty unanimously wanted dead, so that makes me scum because...? You're basically criticizing me for having a slow start on Day fucking one.
I don't understand your statement that I wanted another accidental hammer, i.e., when did an accidental hammer happen before, when did I state I wanted one, etc. etc. you're making shit up don't do that.
Don't understand your criticism of either 1225 or 1290.
I don't know what the "indict gaiden on D4" bit is.
Gaiden wanted me dead if Massive flipped scum, otherwise he wanted Lala, someone I was pushing. Sounds like if I were scum that would be a good reason to keep Gaiden alive.
I'm sorry I pointed out a scumslip and hammered said scum?

Sakura, I think I agree with your VCA.
VOTE: Elbrin

Lufan, explain why you agree with her VCA, unvote, or just claim scum. Because I refuse to believe you understood any of that.

If Lufan is town, scum is in a position to quickhammer me for the win.

[Elbirn]

other than that, i want elbrin lynched if massive is scum, but if massive happens to be town, i'm biased toward getting rid of lalaladucks.

Elbirn wanted lalaladucks dead yesterday.
Elbrin also wanted to indict Gaiden based on NKA.
Gaiden then suddenly dies.

What's concerning me is why would he be killed when there were higher sin players.

Seems to be setting up on possible NKA today...

Not to mention that VCA also points towards him being scum.

1. What do you mean I wanted to indict Gaiden based on NKA? Like holy shit I never said that anywhere, I said nothing but bad things about Lala yesterday.

2. Why is NKA analysis bad? I sincerely don't even understand your objection here.

[Elbirn]

So one scum was on your wagon, so there should be other scum....Because why? Why would scum be more likely to be on a wagon? Why would they be off?

Wagon/Voting analysis is quite literally nonsense and fairy dust because you assume that scum will do one thing, when there is absolutely zero reason why they would do any particular thing over any other particular thing.

I say again, Lufan, if you are town, then scum can quickhammer me and win the game. It's 5 votes to lynch, 3 scum, and 2 votes on me right now. If you don't unvote, you're claiming scum.

[Elbirn]

For the record, from now on I'm confidently disregarding every post of yours pertaining to VCA/Wagon analysis, because there is literally zero sense to any of it. You're basically looking at every vote count, going "There needs to be at least X number of scum on this wagon because I say so", and calling it evidence. I am quite frankly baffled.

[Elbirn]

If anyone cared, my conclusion regarding Gaiden being the nightkill = He was being townread / Scum wanted me to use that as a reason to keep pushing town-Lala (I come in, see dead Gaiden, "See guys Lala did it again, she killed someone who wanted her lynched!) / there's scum within the 2-sin players, who wanted to use the others as a sort of shield, so they picked a 1-sinner. Said players with 2-sin are Cho, Lufan, LaLa, and ABR.

[Elbirn]

Said players with 2-sin are Cho, Lufan, LaLa, and ABR.

Try again.

Minus abr From that list, my bad

[Elbirn]

Inb4 AtP.

Appeal to Probability
An appeal to probability involves the assumption that because something can happen, it necessarily will happen. It can often be used as a form of Appeal to Emotion, particularly fear.
While there is a certain amount of probability assumptions in Mafia (see ...and they all lived happily ever after),

relying on them to the exclusion of actually reading player behavior within a particular game can be dangerous

. Assumptions of probability implying certainty can be particularly hard to spot, because the player making the initial argument can later say that they never meant to imply that the (worst possible) scenario would happen, only that it could happen.
This is not to be confused with actually calculating odds and making the most statistically sound choice.

Sounds about right.

Unless you can point me to full lynch wagons being on town and only composed of towns that has happened very often, I'll take your discredit as claiming scum, since of course, you want to discredit my VCA, not the conclusions drawn from it, since you arent even trying to hunt within such wagons.

Vote: Elbirn

I can't draw any conclusions from what you're saying if I don't agree with it. I already know you're wrong because *I'm town*. Like, what do you want from me?

So in the end conclusion
There's at least 2 scum within Elbirn, Cho, grapes.

I mean I can agree with this, but not based on any of that nonsense you just did, but because Cho and Grapes are scum.

There's at least 2 scum within Elbirn, Cho, grapes.

Maybe Elbirn's actually the town from these 3, yes?.

HEY, there it is! So now we can stop arguing over nothing and go back to working together?
Like seriously post game if you want to school my noob ass on VCA go for it, but for the time being it looks like astrophysics to me.

@Elbirn, who do you think is scum?

Cho, Grapes, +1 of idon'tevenknowanymore. I was more confident in scum-lala yesterday than I am today. I've been reading Glass and ABR as town, and idk about Farside but I've been leaning town since RC's lynch. So I'm thinking maybe town-lala, and I'm wrong about someone in Glass/ABR/Farside?

[Elbirn]

So I've been busy with work and a sudden extreme need to find a new place to live, and am quite frankly pretty stressed. I saw Sakura request everyone's reads, but I don't remember much else. If there are any questions anyone had (or if anyone wants to ask me one now) please point me to it and I'll answer.

Towniest to scummiest:

Sakura Hana
Elbirn
Glass
Albert B. Rampage
Farside22
Lufan131
Lalaladucks
Cho
Grapes

Notes on this list. I have Lala as third scummiest, but I believe it's more likely that I'm wrong about one of my townreads than her being scum. I'd look at Farside/Albert for that potentially-wrong-person. Glass seems town to me. Lufan I'm just paranoid about, because frankly there's no way to read him and I don't see how RedCoyote pushing him all game means he's town. In fact, if the assumption everyone goes with is "Scum wouldn't bus their teammate all game", then that's EXACTLY what scum should do. Having said that I don't want him lynched. I'm not confident in him being scum, and I wouldn't want to bet the game on it. I still want to hang Grapes for defending RC's scumslip, that post was all kinds of awful. As for Cho, somewhere in the back of my mind at the end of D4 I thought, "If Cho isn't the NK she is scum", and I'm trying to remember why. I think it's the sincount. She has two sin. There were other two sinners (Lala and Lufan) but I could see them being lynchbait, hence scum wouldn't kill them. Why would Cho not be NK'd though?

"But Elbirn, NKA is bullshit and wifomy and scum manipulate that and how can you believe that and hate VCA at the same time" because fuck you thats why

I need to reread this game basically and at the moment I don't have time to

[Elbirn]

[quote="In post 2275, lufan131"]If at the end of the game, sakura is the last scum, I'll laugh./quote]

Weeee Phone posting

I was thinking about this and this statement screams "dumbtown". Like I'm sorry to have to phrase it like that, I myself am pisswd people keep calling *me* bad/dumb. But yeah I don't see scum saying this.

[Elbirn]

Point is... everyone.... EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE... except Cho, is scumreading grapes. This makes me uneasy and makes me think grapes is most likely town. I'll try to make a flowchart of reads and see how that goes, maybe i can make some connections.

See at first I thought this would mean town Grapes. Like, I don't see any real pressure for scum to want to bus here, so for Grapes to be universally scumread seems odd. What do you make of Cho townreading Grapes though, especially given your consideration that Cho is scum?

[Elbirn]

...Heck you said Gaiden was killed to point the finger at you, but no one aside from me brought it up, and i did even wait to see if someone else would bring it up, which would bring that theory credibility, but it didn't happen which made the theory even more viable...

If anyone cared, my conclusion regarding Gaiden being the nightkill = He was being townread /

Scum wanted me to use that as a reason to keep pushing town-Lala (I come in, see dead Gaiden, "See guys Lala did it again, she killed someone who wanted her lynched!)

/ there's scum within the 2-sin players, who wanted to use the others as a sort of shield, so they picked a 1-sinner. Said players with 2-sin are Cho, Lufan, LaLa, and ABR.

I kinda feel like you don't even read my posts, Sakura-senpaii~ v.v

[Elbirn]

That makes sense, but I could see a world where scum were counting on me to do that for them given my tunnel vision on Lala yesterday.

....Tinfoil hat theory, Farside is the scum I'm wrong about, using my play this game and her experience with me in a previous game (Where I harped on her the whole game) to predict that I would use dead-gaiden as fodder to continue deathtunneling Lala.

[Elbirn]

See at first I thought this would mean town Grapes. Like, I don't see any real pressure for scum to want to bus here, so for Grapes to be universally scumread seems odd. What do you make of Cho townreading Grapes though, especially given your consideration that Cho is scum?

Depending on how many of the 2-sinners are town, we could be in LyLo for the rest of the game, so yes there is reason to bus. If you have 3 scum in a LyLo situation why wouldn't they just bus 1 to clear the others? What do you make of Cho townreading grapes?

See I disagree. I feel like we're so in the dark right now that scum is just waiting to pick up a win TODAY, which would mean no bussing. Why bus if they can get a win today? The only way I could see a bus today would be if less of the 2-sinners are town than we think (therefore, we're not actually in a lylo situation)

I don't really know what to make of Cho townreading Grapes, other than it means that Cho is townreading Grapes. With a majority suspecting him, it would make sense for Cho to bus if they're both scum. That isn't happening here. If Grapes is scum, his other partner *IS* bussing. Do scum split themselves up when it comes to bussing or what?

[Elbirn]

You seem pretty upset considering no one drew any negative conclusions from your read on Grapes.

[Elbirn]

Cho The Bulge Seraphim, SIN, SIN
Sakura Hana, SIN, SIN
Albert B. Rampage, SIN

grapes
Glass

farside22, SIN
lufan131, SIN, SIN

Elbirn, SIN

lalaladucks, SIN, SIN

-----

Town, null (I cannot figure out at all anymore if part of a scumteam would want no sin so town could get it or if they would be ok with getting sin in order to help push things), drifting between nulltown and nullscum (as in I keep thinking different opposing things about these players and farside in particular I keep reading wrong and while I don't want to lynch her I also kind of do if only it didn't probably have a huge margin of error there), nullscum and I think the only lynch I actually want atm, and scum.

Also, my lack of townreads this game annoys me probably more than it annoys you.

And to be frank this was convoluted as fuck, so having Grapes listed as your second highest on the list (aside from conf-town Sakura and yourself, which is a given) is kind of understandably confusing.

[Elbirn]

Sakura hold on.
If lufan is town and Elbirn is town, scum could all jump on and lynch Elbirn ftw.

Not sure if lala is actually town after all
or scum trying to buy town cred while waiting for her buddies to show up

Fry squint.jpg

[Elbirn]

I'm actually really salty right now

Like I could fill the dead sea with the amount of salt that I am experiencing

gimme a minute

[Elbirn]

I'm kinda salty at Lufan for voteparking me. Just gonna...Just gonna put that out there.
And Sakura I'm not going to be mad at you for being wrong in regards to your read on me, like you clearly put a lot of effort into this game and had good reasons for it. But...Jeez did I really seem that scummy that the whole game had to want my blood at the end? Am I a Village Idiot? ;_;

For the record, in a world where I didn't get quicklynched before coming home from work, I was voting for Farside. My tinfoil hat theory burrowed into my brain and became me. And I was just thinking about stuff and fuck if she wasn't kinda off from the other game we played, and she was clearly using me as a crutch to not participate, while ironically telling everyone that I wasn't participating. I had some paranoia of Albert but I really can't take credit for thinking he's scum, he's definitely the one that got away. I should have known he was scumbuddyfucking me to death Cho was scumzors to me but I don't even feel like I had a good reason for thinking that so I don't want to pat myself on the back for that either. RedCoyote I totally organically caught that scumslip before even reading anyone else say anything on it so EAT IT HATERS

I'm more happy with the fact that I correctly 180'd on Grapes and Lala, like...Fuck if I didn't have a single good reason to think either were scum, and damn were some of their later posts dripping with townie goodness. I think I need to stick to determining who's town, cuz I'm clearly terrible at determining who's scum.

At least you were out there making good posts.

Except all my analysis kept being discredited by Elbirn, grapes and you @_@

See I didn't mean to be a dick about it or anything, it was just...Like I saw what you were trying to do, it just didn't add up because the conclusion was that I was scum and I knew I wasn't. There was literally no response to that other than "You are wrong".

[Elbirn]

Oh also I'm not playing with Katsuki ever again, he dropped into this game solely to ruin AA9's game, ensure she died, and then peaced out. That is bullshit.

[Elbirn]

Oh also I'm not playing with Katsuki ever again, he dropped into this game solely to ruin AA9's game, ensure she died, and then peaced out. That is bullshit.

I mean srsly, kat comes, yells at me to shot AA9, and AA9 flips town, kats calls AA9 a death miller and dissapears....

I'm sorry that I had to go V/LA site-wide due to a family emergency. It's not hard to check that I replaced out of other games the same time I announced it in Heaven.

Oh great now I'm an asshole

K fine sorry but you were still really mean to AA9 all game

[Elbirn]

Elbirn got

burned

by those fiery Hell demons.

Hah. Just had to

...I don't get it.

[Elbirn]

Oh.

Now I feel dumb.

Are you happy Lala? You made me feel dumb. You have to carry that guilt with you forever.

[Elbirn]

I did that thing where I forgot to say GG. So, GG. You're all pretty much awesome and I hope to play with you again in the future <3

[Elbirn]

Oh and also, FakeGod you're pretty much the most professional mod I've seen and this set up rocked the Kazbah. Hope to play in more of your games in the future.

[Elbirn]

Yeah but I'm kinda forced into a hiatus at the moment because life ;_;