Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

Plotinus · Post Post #14 (isolation #0) » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:26 pm

VOTE: Fro99er

because it’s not easy being green

Plotinus · Post Post #16 (isolation #1) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:33 am

Not purposefully voting with you, no. I vote him because he’s one of two people I’ve interacted with before (the other is BBT), and i wanted to make a kermit the frog joke.

Plotinus · Post Post #31 (isolation #2) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:51 am

If fro99er is scum, it’s probably his first time so it’ll be obvious soon enough, I think.

Plotinus · Post Post #48 (isolation #3) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:30 am

I don’t know fro99er well enough yet to have a serious read yet. This is our first game together, but we’ve spectated a few of each other’s games and then we finally had a conversation recently. I know that usually he’s pretty obvtown so given time he’ll be easy enough to sort.

Plotinus · Post Post #53 (isolation #4) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:48 am

texcat, mathdino asked me what my read on fro99er was in 42. I replied in 48 to say that I didn’t have one yet.

A lot of this is just noise to me at the moment that’ll make sense in hindsight. When I do have serious read, I’ll let you know.

Plotinus · Post Post #61 (isolation #5) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:07 am

VOTE: Lapsa

Plotinus · Post Post #70 (isolation #6) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:22 am

Back from dinner now.

I am townleaning fro99er for now because I’ve liked his posts so far and his response to pressure seemed natural. In 31, I actually meant that it would be obvious in general, even to people who aren’t me. In pretty much all of his games he’s universally townread once he gets going. But saying that was also somewhat of a test, because if he isn't town here then he might feel pressured by knowing that he has a reputation to live up to. Since fro99er has moved into the townlean pile, my vote was no longer doing anything useful.

Lapsa’s 60 was pretty fluffy which is reason enough for an early vote, but additionally it looked like he was crumbing vanilla townie, which if true, is either an attempt to draw the nightkill away from himself (the opposite of what a vanilla townie should be doing) or something to point at late game when people wonder why he’s still alive “I crumbed vanilla so they didn’t NK me”.

Plotinus · Post Post #75 (isolation #7) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:30 am

@Abuse: If I’m missing an option it’s one I didn’t see. I don’t normally call attention to crumbs but that post looked to me almost as bad as crumbing miller.

@Shinobi: No, I have seen vanilla town do it too but it’s dumb. Scum has to explain why they’re still alive when LYLO comes around. Scum wouldn’t be trying to deflect the nightkill with a post like that, they would be trying to show that they’re town see they crumbed it way back when.

Plotinus · Post Post #79 (isolation #8) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:48 am

I think I see it now but I think guessing would be detrimental. I don’t want to speculate on what he might be if he’s neither vanilla nor mafia. I’m sort of regretting bringing it up. Maybe after the game is over (or after he flips) someone can finish explaining it to me.

I have 4 completed games, 3 of them were newbie games. Offsite I have 2 completed games but everything is different over there, one of those games didn’t even have an informed majority. I am newish to mafia in general, have only been playing online since this year and before that just a little bit in person in the 90’s that I barely remember.

I’ve been here long enough that I no longer feel like a complete newbie, and I feel like my play has been improving over time, but I may continue to miss things that are obvious to other people now and then.

Plotinus · Post Post #81 (isolation #9) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:56 am

So you have basically played 4 games but:

In post 75, Plotinus wrote:
@Shinobi:
No, I have seen vanilla town do it too but it’s dumb.
Scum has to explain why they’re still alive when LYLO comes around. Scum wouldn’t be trying to deflect the nightkill with a post like that, they would be trying to show that they’re town see they crumbed it way back when.

I kind of find the bolded to be hard to believe.[/quote]

Then read the last page of my most recently completed newbie game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=550

Plotinus · Post Post #82 (isolation #10) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:57 am

In post 80, abuse wrote:So you have basically played 4 games but:

In post 75, Plotinus wrote:
@Shinobi:
No, I have seen vanilla town do it too but it’s dumb.
Scum has to explain why they’re still alive when LYLO comes around. Scum wouldn’t be trying to deflect the nightkill with a post like that, they would be trying to show that they’re town see they crumbed it way back when.

I kind of find the bolded to be hard to believe.

Then read the last page of my most recently completed newbie game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=550

EBWOP: fixed quote fail

Plotinus · Post Post #86 (isolation #11) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:05 am

@Zoronos: okay, that’s another explanation. but why would town need to do a PM gambit like that? i’ve only been town so far in my games and it has never crossed my mind “oh no it’s page 3 better town up my slot"

Plotinus · Post Post #101 (isolation #12) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:56 am

In post 98, Fro99er wrote:
Plotinus has two modes. Verbose and cryptic, but he's trying to learn a middle ground (from his GTKAS in his sig). I prefer verbose Plotinus myself, even if it leads to some walls to read. Plotinus is most definitely a newbie, and will make some mistakes, but mistakes don't mean he's scum. For example, the game I observed he forgot to count the RVS votes and accidentally derphammered someone, and got painted super suspicious/scummy for it. I can't say how he plays scum, because I've never seen him play scum. My intent is to read into Plotinus' emotions/motivation to see if what he does is towny or scummy. My other intention is to ask him if he is scum and see if he giggles.

Plotinus, are you scum?

nope, are you?

ugh that game was embarrassing. I was tracker in that game and the person i hammered was the other power role. I took a lot of flak for it but I was part of a conftown bloc by LYLO. we lost anyway, though.

Have you read any of my less embarrassing completed games?

also, there is between 0 and 1 scum in the group {Me, Lapsa}.

Plotinus · Post Post #108 (isolation #13) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:12 am

you’re supposed to save those up for the twilight trolling phase after your flip

Plotinus · Post Post #112 (isolation #14) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:21 am

@Fro99er, by passiveness, are you referring to me saying I was still null on you back on page 2 or something else?

@Zoronos: zeah, 4ish. (+ ongoing that can’t be discussed, + a couple offsite that dont count)

Plotinus · Post Post #114 (isolation #15) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:26 am

That makes sense.

You’re talking like you have more experience than I do, but your join date is after mine. Do you have more experience elsewhere?

Plotinus · Post Post #120 (isolation #16) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:43 am

@Zoronos: fair enough. Thanks.

@Mathdino: you FOSed abuse but you’re sharing a wagon with him, though abuse’s vote here seems to have been RVS because it was in 12. Is Lapsa your stronger scumread at the moment?

pedit: @Frogger: oh, ok. yeah, the first few pages are hard for me in real time. I work better with larger patterns.

Plotinus · Post Post #124 (isolation #17) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:05 am

@Mathdino about 122: I remember someone in one of my games (hopefully a completed one. pretty sure anyway.) saying something about working together (being on the same wagon) with a scumread being bad but i don’t remember who right now. might have been BBT? if i figure out what game it was from i’ll link it or say something more coherent tomorrow (bit of a headache tonight)

I think it’s more of a later game thing or at least a “not rvs thing” because if a scumread is pushing a wagon and they’re actually scum then it’s good to ask yourself why they’re pushing the wagon and why you’re on it but abuse isn’t really pushing the wagon and it’s a stale rvs vote at this point.

Sorry if this was incoherent. I am going to stop staring at the computer for now.

Plotinus · Post Post #160 (isolation #18) » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:50 pm

Catching up.

@Mathdino about 125 agree preflip associations are bad. That’s not quite where I was coming from with the question but I liked your answer anyway (and I’m not sure I can explain the difference between what i meant and what you said). But in broad strokes: I was (and am) townleaning you. I noticed that the two of us were sharing a wagon with someone (abuse) we were both scumleaning. I wondered if we should be worried about what this said about the accuracy of our respective scumleans on lapsa.

As a general note, my playstyle and my pushes are still based more on “I saw an experienced player say x in a previous game and they were right and i think what they said applies here” with only a little bit of “I have personally experienced this thing”. Relying on the first has been going well for me lately, I’ll probably switch the second more as I get more experienced. Relying solely on my own feelings leads to crap like “x is being nice to me so they must be town”.

Re: Lapsa on page 6: he continues to be underwhelming. I can understand the “he can’t be this bad” arguments but if he’s known for playing like this as town, what motivation would he have as scum to change up his playstyle and start playing better? If he’s scum, he doesn’t want to make sudden playstyle changes but wants to act like he did when he was town in previous games. If this is his usual playstyle, then “as town, I do scum twilight trolling while still alive” is easy as fuck to do as scum too, especially if he knows people are going to say “oh, Lapsa’s always like that”.

I like Zoronos’ method of dealing with Lapsa too. I tend to favour that method in newbie games (the one I linked earlier is a good example), because if it’s someone’s first game then goading them into being a better player is fun and the problem is usually “can’t”, not “won’t”. I’m not going to take that approach with people who have earlier joindates than I do, though.

I need to stare at Thor’s ISO for a while. I shouldn’t be null on him after all these words. Want to try to interact with him soon but I think the Thor vs Mathdino topic isn’t what I want to interact with him about; I’m townleaning Mathdino but that’s not enough. I don’t think I am positioned to determine whether it’s a town on town push or a scum on town push and i might not even be reading mathdino correctly anyway so that’s too many assumptions.

140 from fro99er looks towny to me, though I think he’s wrong about some things (Zoronos in 146 explains everything that’s wrong with slayer’s gambit and that made me happy). Also, it has been my (admittedly limited) experience that a lot of players who are “too scummy to be scum” actually flip scum.

@CB re: 147 why is trying to move the game along and get out of RVS scummy? If he trying to move out of RVS and into the “pointless bickering about mafia theory” stage I’d agree with you but to me his post looked more like “let’s skip RVS and bickering about theory and move on to the let’s have serious reads now part here i’ll start”. Taking initiative is good.

I haven’t played with Fro99er before; I’ve spectated his games. I was townreading him correctly throughout the spectating, though. I have since started townreading him in this game. We didn’t have to wait until Day 5. It’s already here. I think he’s town. I wasn’t quite there yet on page 2 but I’m there now.

You are right that I was saying fro99er’s towniness or lack there of would be obvious to everyone, not just me. You are understanding my words correctly. Now look for motivation behind my words and what wincon those words are benefitting. Hint: it’s the wincon that wants to reduce mislynches, not keep the mislynch pool as full as possible.

You make a lot of pushes in this wall, against mathdino, me, lapsa, abuse, and zoro. I’m not really sure why you voted me at the end of it, because the parts directed at me didn’t seem stronger than the parts directed at anyone else. (huh, mathdino counted 6. now i’m wondering who i missed). Anyway, seconding the request for a readslist from you.

Plotinus · Post Post #165 (isolation #19) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:12 am

re: 164 in the game of mine that you spectated: skold for refusing to produce reads and active lurking, argos for doing zero scumhunting the entire game. in the game of mine that I linked that you said you skimmed, both freeko (scumreading every slot but his own) and annadog were fairly obvious (no scumhunting at all except for a lackluster attempt to help her scumbuddy out by sheeping him). in my first game house was scum and he was also pretty scummy but i think he does that as town too. mainez was the “this is my first game and i drew scum and therefore dont have any town games to imitate” type. in elemental mafia, papi bear was obvscum, the reverend for openly sk hunting on day 1 instead of mafia hunting like the rest of us. I can’t talk about the more relevant to Lapsa examples yet but I assure you they exist.

I’ll grant than in your first game that I spectated none of the scum were obvious. But you also didn’t have anyone who was obvscum-but-unfortunately-town in that game (from my perspective anyway).

Plotinus · Post Post #177 (isolation #20) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:56 am

Much better, thanks mod!

Plotinus · Post Post #180 (isolation #21) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:37 am

In post 166, Fro99er wrote:I wasn't talking about my first newbie game.

I dropped this earlier because i thought you were referring to ~ongoing~ (i didn’t know who or what game, but i didn’t want to guess) but I just remembered saad from Exotic Birds which is completed. so yeah I remember now, sometimes town are just naturally scummy. but I have seen plenty of “to scummy to be scum” examples that flipped scum. I just think that something is broken if we assume VI instead of scum everytime someone scumslips.

Plotinus · Post Post #191 (isolation #22) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:11 am

if that’s true you should forward them to the mod.

Plotinus · Post Post #195 (isolation #23) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:48 am

In post 194, Cthulhu Dreaming wrote:
In post 190, Lapsa wrote:Kitty wrote me pm`s

In post 191, Plotinus wrote:if that’s true you should forward them to the mod.

There's no one named Kitty in this game. I suspect he's referring to Kitty Galore, who was in his last game, and who also happens to be my girlfriend.

If that's the case, I fail to see the relevance to this game and chalk it up as another shitpost.

I checked the player list before posting but was erring on the safe side of guessing that texcat = kitty. your guess may well have been better a one.

also HI BBT I am glad you are catching up.

Plotinus · Post Post #230 (isolation #24) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:25 pm

@mathdino: i tried but i got distracted and now it’s really late and i didn’t finish the alphabet yet but i took a close look at the ISOs of Abuse, BBT and CB so far.

Null:
@Abuse: What did you get out of Fro99er’s answer to the question you asked in 67?

@BBT: He’s taking a lot of stances that aren’t how I was thinking of the game before he came along and I don’t know what that means. I can kind of see the stuff he’s saying if I squint but I can’t just sheep him because he’s smarter than me, that’s no way to play. I want to see more from him, though. More catchup, more responses to other people’s questions.

He’s doing his catchup post with quotes instead of links and I always saw him use links before and I don’t know what that means, it’s probably not alignment indicative but it’s something I noticed.

It’s interesting that he mentions me but he doesn’t ask me any questions or interact with me yet. I want him to be town because we’ve been town together at least 3 times already and it was really fun but unfortunately I am null on BBT.

I don’t know about his push on Fro99er in 193; fro99er’s evolving read on me didn’t seem all that quick in real time.

BBT, why are you town reading CB he was throwing shade on a whole bunch of slots in his only post?

Scum:

CB: I didn’t like his push on me and it felt like a misrep. I think CB is lynchhunting not scum hunting. His pushes on other people seem like low hanging fruit.

will finish later.
townlean on mathdino, fro99er, zoronos.
lapsa is scum or indistinguishable from scum.

Plotinus · Post Post #252 (isolation #25) » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:59 pm

In post 242, Lapsa wrote:
In post 230, Plotinus wrote:unfortunately I am null on BBT

and why you on earth you consider sheeping nullread?

reading comprehension: he’s a nullread, therefore I can’t sheep him. In my 3 games with him, in which he was town all 3 times, almost every time he tried to get everyone to vote for someone, they were in fact scum. He was wrong a couple of times on page 1-2 in my first game with him, right all the other times. Paying attention to his opinions has worked well for me in the past, and if he progresses past a nullread that will be nice.

Plotinus · Post Post #289 (isolation #26) » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:18 am

i promise i’ll engage with this on a deeper level tomorrow or something, but i think i have food poisoning from last night’s dinner and i havent been able to eat anything today and I only got a few hour’s sleep. i’m here and reading along and i can answer simple stuff but i can’t do the kind of poring over ISOs with a fine toothed comb that’s my usual MO and theory of mind stuff is mostly out of the question today.

fro99er, you know i’m more of a mid-late game player. the game you happen to have spectated is probably the most embarassing day 1 i’ve ever had; I think I was scumread for every single post in that day 1 by various people. You’ve seen the larger patterns that I rely on for my reads. everything is noise right now. i can’t get a signal. you even know why it takes me so much more work to get reads. I don’t mind you pushing me like this because it helps me get reads if people push on me but I don’t really understand your push right now either.

but briefly, the part that felt like a misrep was:

In post 147, CB wrote:
Plotinus:
I really don't like 48. Seems really noncommittal. I mean he is one of two people you have played with and you don't feel comfortable giving a read. What are we going to wait for day 5 to hear a read on all the people you haven't played with?

1) of course it was noncommital. it was page 2.
2) i haven’t played with you and i had said that already in the thraed
3) the day 5 part especially. that’s awfully impatient.

it’s not omgus. it’s also not that strong of a read yet because it was only 1 post. i was intending that to be part of a longe rpost where i went through everyone’s ISO and tried to form an opinion or figure out what questions to ask them but then suddenly it was 4am so i thought it better to post the 3 reads had and do the rest later. If i’d managed to produce 12 reads instaed of 3 i’m not sure CB would have even been at the bottom.

Plotinus · Post Post #299 (isolation #27) » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:21 am

i think i can answer the low hanging fruit / lynch hunting thing too actually.

when i read a game, i’m trying to keep track of everyone’s opinions and feelings. i haven’t had time to check my work just going from memory right now, so it’s just a mess of coloured threads in my head with no numbers attached yet. organically evolving reads is one of the primary things i look for when town hunting because i think it is hard to fake at the level i’m looking at. but it also makes it easy to look for lynch hunting. as town, i don’t care that much if my reads match everyone elses but as scum it is somthing i think about.

the group [me, mathdino, lapsa, abuse, zoro] is a good first pass at contemporary popular sentiment at the time it was posted. it’s a lynchable pool. it’s also a sort of surface skim of other people’s reads, taking a read from here a read from there without necessarily checking that these 5 make sense with eachother. i was scum once on another site and i remember what i was trying to do then. a lot of things were different over there, though.

also my “looking for organically evolving reads” thing is why my reads are going to be crap early on, no one else’s reads have had time to evolve yet either.

but anyway it was one post. want to look at other people’s isos have to wait for brain to come back before i can.

Plotinus · Post Post #439 (isolation #28) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:45 am

UNVOTE: Lapsa I still don’t really get him but he’s actually contributing now.

Nulltown on chthulu after finishing reading its ISO because it seems to be trying to figure things out. I could see where it was coming from in 189 even though I came to different conclusions myself. I feel like the town has been dividing itself into two camps over this stuff and I think seeing who is in which camp and why will help me decide if I’m in the right camp or not. 284 points to something that worried me, too. I like 300, because I was thinking the same when I saw mathdino’s post assuming 10:3. A while ago I was looking at setups on the wiki and I saw lots of different ones like 8:3:2 (jungle mafia) and 9:2:2 and 9:3:1 and 9:4 and 10:3 and 11:2 mountainous so yeah. And then chthulu makes this very point in 311. great.

This is also a catchup post.

Lapsa’s 325 UNVOTE: Lapsa. Glad to see some contributions and scum hunting, man.

toolenduso’s 339 is good analysis. I like this approach.

toolenduso’s 344 also makes a lot of sense (though it seems like a bit too much work on day 1 for too little gain because we don’t have any flips to use for wagon analysis yet) though I think fro99er is just newbslipping.

fro99er’s 345 no, but it is best to be having some thought process that you can point to, preferably something you noticed by yourself without anyone’s help.

abuse’s 355 I think he’s just trying to communicate with me, actually, trying to draw me out of my shell or something. the thing is i wasn’t not posting because i didn’t know how, i just tend to have a weak early day 1 and i wasn’t feeling well on top of that. anyway, i don’t really need coaching. i’ll either obvtown myself eventually without help or i won’t.

fro99er’s 370 if you still think this then make a case.

fro99er’s 378 what the fuck. i’m having no part in this. i’m in your scumpile yet you start a counterwagon for me and then you’re on again off again buddying me but refusing to remove me from the mislynch pool by talking in specifics about what i’m like. if there’s not something in the next few pages that makes it clear this is a newbslip (which is how i was viewing your previous posts) then I’m coming after you. because from where i’m sitting it looks like you’re trying to artificially create associatives between us so that if you flip scum you’ll take me down with you. like the only thing holding me back right now is that if this is your first time being scum i’m not sure you’d think of that on your own unless you have daytalk or something.

lapsa’s 396 oh man i want to tell the abelian semigrape joke here but people will think i’m crumbing something i’m not if i do so instead i will ask you what’s yellow, sour, and equivalent to the axiom of truth?

Zorn’s lemon

cb’s 412 i think we each may have comented on each other’s postgame commentary with stuff about how we were spectating or something but i don’t really remember because it was a while ago. + ~ongoing~.

VOTE: fro99er

probably town: abuse
maybe town: toolenduso, lapsa, math
could be town: chthulu, zoronos, thor, shinobi
could be scum: bbt, texcat,
maybe scum:
scum: cb, fro99er

Plotinus · Post Post #441 (isolation #29) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:49 am

oh. this is the first 13 player game i’ve played in so i don’t know how many are usual i just know what’s on the wiki.

Oh, wait. In my one offsite scum game i did actually make a how do you know how many nightkills there are going to be case against someone on day 1 and it turned out we were in surprise multiball with wincon changing SKs and that he did in fact know how many nightkills there would be but i was making that argument as scum and i thought i was just going after a townie when i was doing it so your points make sense to me. I guess i’ll bump chthulu down a notch then into could be scum. I was remembering the “i made that argument once and i was right” part and forgetting the “I was scum then” part.

yeah, chthulu’s in the could be scum group then.

Plotinus · Post Post #445 (isolation #30) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:31 am

In post 443, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
I'm town Plot. There, I hope I eased your worries.

yay

I'm not sure how you don't see that as a quick turn around. In 102 you're 'nullscum' and in the space of 9 posts you're now 'towny'. Hmm.

I didn’t notice at the time but i just went back and the only post of mine between those two was me goading Lapsa about twilight trolling, and those posts are only 25 minutes apart. hmm is right.

I already stated why I thought CB was town; a lot of his thoughts in his catch up post were the same as mine as I was catching up. This means he is likely viewing the game from the same mindset that I am, so he can be town.

I guess. Well, looking forward to see if that changes or not as your catchup proceeds then.

Plotinus · Post Post #447 (isolation #31) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:53 am

In post 446, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 299, Plotinus wrote:i think i can answer the low hanging fruit / lynch hunting thing too actually.

The way you started this post is pinging me pretty hard. It's like you thought about answering Fro99er's accusations the first time around but couldn't think of a decent explanation and then you had another think about it and something came to you that you thought you could use.

was having trouble translating thoughts into language at the time, that’s all.

Plotinus · Post Post #452 (isolation #32) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:31 am

In post 449, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 447, Plotinus wrote:
was having trouble translating thoughts into language at the time, that’s all.

Hmm, I was correct to read that you had 'two' attempts at answering that accusation then?

I was reading along and noticing people talking to me but couldn’t respond for a while, so I filed questions away in my head for later. i remembered some of the questions in one post and the other questions a little later. I was in a “can talk about easy stuff but don’t make me think too much” kind of place, and it took a little while to find words to match the patterns.

Plotinus · Post Post #469 (isolation #33) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:27 pm

fro99er, when i read that 379 it looked like you were claiming scum with me. and that’s a huge problem because I’m town. i couldn’t think of any other way to understand that post of yours. This is not a deathtunnel. convince me this is TvT and i’ll back down. sometimes I misunderstand stuff.

it was nothing about you being smart or not smart it’s about you lacking certain experiences. you’re not stupid, fro99er. you’ve been here for 2 months, i’ve been here for 3. n00bslipping doesn’t make you stupid it’s just something that we can’t help sometimes.

I like you as a person. I’m not even that mad at you after sleeping on it, I just had a really visceral reaction to that post. It’s just a game. I think you’re not town this time. That’s all.

And now you think I’m scum for insufficent buddying? um ok. you do you.

that post was about this sinking feeling that i had a few times earlier that I brushed aside as you being new, like something in 98 felt odd to me too but I ignored it. I can try to words it if you want.

You mention me over a hundred times in your ISO. you’re being really weird about me this game, Fro99er.

I’m not really awake yet.

Plotinus · Post Post #471 (isolation #34) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:32 pm

then what you were saying in that post? because counterwagons are things that you start to ease pressure off your scumpartner.

Plotinus · Post Post #475 (isolation #35) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:38 pm

why were you talking in 98 like we knew each other in real life when we don’t you just got that stuff from my GTKAS.

Plotinus · Post Post #478 (isolation #36) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:42 pm

In post 98, Fro99er wrote:My other intention is to ask him if he is scum and see if he giggles.

Plotinus, are you scum?

this was the part that gave me a weird feeling at the time but i brushed it aside.

Plotinus · Post Post #481 (isolation #37) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:46 pm

like i don’t know if i can explain what that post made me feel in a way that makes sense outside my head it just felt like someone suddenly sitting way too close to me or like you trying to get in underneath my defenses. It felt like buddying.

pedit: everything in my GTKAS is true, but people weren’t asking you to summarise my GTKAS they were asking what I was like in exotic birds.

Plotinus · Post Post #483 (isolation #38) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:47 pm

@abuse: yeah, i was brushing stuff like that aside before as newbslips. i’m not anymore.

@Lapsa: all puns are funny!

Plotinus · Post Post #485 (isolation #39) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:49 pm

Fro99er, other people have seen stuff about you too, like BBT talking about how quickly your opinion of me changed (when in between those two opinions the only thing that happened was me goading Lapsa about doing twilight trolling before he flipped) and abuse too.

Plotinus · Post Post #489 (isolation #40) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:52 pm

(yeah, bbt not voting is weird)

fro99er, and therefore this isn’t just Plotinus being stupid, maybe what I’m seeing is something that is actually there.

Plotinus · Post Post #492 (isolation #41) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:55 pm

In post 490, Fro99er wrote:You seem paranoid

aaaaaaaand which alignment experiences town paranoia?

Plotinus · Post Post #498 (isolation #42) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:04 pm

I know it’s late where you are but when you’re awake and not using the phone you need to make a case against me.

pedit: @Fro99er: nope. this is not scum paranoia and this is not where i’d be writing about it if it were. scum paranoia goes in my private notes. town paranoia goes in the main thread. but sleep well. we can talk about this some more when you’re awake.

Plotinus · Post Post #500 (isolation #43) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:07 pm

accusing you of being coached is not a scumslip

Plotinus · Post Post #501 (isolation #44) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:08 pm

I dismantled 280 already. Make a new case. When awake and alert and stuff.

Plotinus · Post Post #506 (isolation #45) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:13 pm

In post 502, Fro99er wrote:
In post 500, Plotinus wrote:accusing you of being coached is not a scumslip

I don't need coaching. If that is your argument for me scum I'm lololololololing

translation: "no, none of my buddies helped me think of cosying up to a town-aligned player in such a way that would make them look bad after I flipped scum; i thought it up all by myself!"

Plotinus · Post Post #508 (isolation #46) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:15 pm

it’s really not.

Plotinus · Post Post #511 (isolation #47) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:27 pm

get some sleep. I’ll do a post by post analysis later. you can try to dismantle it when you wake up.

Plotinus · Post Post #512 (isolation #48) » Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:34 pm

like a large part of my problem with you right now fro99er is that the way you’ve been interacting with me will make me look bad after you flip scum. If I were scum and you were town, why the hell would I be worrying about what your flip would make me look like? If we were both scum, why the hell would I be yelling at you about associative tells in public? I’d either be yelling at you in private now or I’d be yelling in my private notes and posting it at nightfall. seriously. A big part of the way I play is looking at associatives and I’m becoming sensitive to how others are associating themselves with me and a lot of alarm bells have been ringing in my head about how you’ve been behaving towards me.

Plotinus · Post Post #516 (isolation #49) » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:21 am

pedit: I am less certain than I was at the time I started this wall about all of this because of the last 2 frogger posts that came in while I was typing but i think it is important to post it anyway. I think if those two posts were here some of what follows would be less harsh.

Okay, this is fro99er’s ISO. I’m only going to analyse my own slot because i can’t speculate on what any of the rest means without flips. This is why I said I’m a late game player; I can get a lot more out of this if I can colour in the names of people who have already flipped.

Spoiler: fro99er’s interactions

going to pull his interactions with me out of the spoiler because they’re the ones i’m talking about. Everyone else can compare his interactions with themselves and make up their own mind.

key:
+ sheeping, agreeing with (except for setup spec/mafia theory type agreements which don’t mean much), buddying, townreading, basically positive interactions, defending people from other people
- pushing, disagreeing with (except setup spec/theory), scumreading, scumhunting, attacking, bussing, distancing, discrediting, etc. (which of these it is specifically depends on flips)
= neutral interactions (mentioning the other player, responding to a push from them in a way that makes it hard to tell if they’re interacting with a scumread or a townread)
? i couldn’t tell what kind of interaction this was.
v = vote
u = unvote but I don’t think I used it here.

plotinus =17 =29 +45 +54 +55 -97 +98 +-99 -102 -103 +104 -106 +111 -=118 +140 =163 =164 =166 =181 =200 =265 =267 -v280 -281 +-290 -314 -367 -370 -378 -458 v459 -460 -461 -462 -463 -465 -466 -467 -468 -470 =472 -474 =477 -480 =484 =486 =488 -490 =491 -493 -494 -499 -502 -504 -507 -509 -510

A string of + and - like that can mean someone is trying to figure someone else out and has them as null BUT in fro99er’s case a lot of these + - flip flops are calling one post towny and then saying he’s scumreading me and then saying i’m being super genuine and then saying i’m nullscum and then going back and forth like that.

I’ve decided against quoting literally all 98 posts from his ISO. Instaed I’m going to focus on about 15 of them.

Spoiler: 98

Ok, I’ve already said how the bolded part just felt all kinds of wrong to me at the time and I set it aside because I needed to see more and figure out what that feeling meant. Ignore the GTKAS part which is mostly irrelevant. And the wallposter part which is obvious (and not alignment indicative). It’s interesting what he points out about the exotic birds game. What he says is true, but it’s not the whole story. I had a terrible day 1 in that game (including derphammering the other power role just out of RVS) then I took a lot of pressure for it on day 2, which I spent deathtunnelling a townie over his smiley usage (seriously), but by day 3 (LYLO) I was universally townread and considered part of the town voting bloc. The day 3 part of the story is important and I’m not sure why Fro99er left it out.

Also, the bit about being able to read my emotions also really pinged me because I don’t think Fro99er has had nearly enough experience with me to recognise my emotions and figure out what that means for my alignment. Like, I do sort of know what he was referring to there (a very brief PM conversation we had back before we had any ongoing games with each other) but I was being so extremely vague in that conversation that he could very easily overgeneralise what he thinks he knows about me and he has since started doing just that.

Spoiler: 99

early game Plotinus is passive Plotinus. You tack those “especially for Plotinus” words onto that sentence like you’re declaring with authority that I’m not a cautious player. It is true that I have been growing less cautious over time as I gain confidence in my playstyle but it is not true that you have not seen cautious townPlotinus before. I’m not going to lie about the strength of my reads and I’m not going to have strong reads in the “just coming out of RVS” stage. You’re attacking me for not having you sorted by page 4. Yes, you had posts before this but I was unsure of what to make of them. You weren’t “null he hasn’t posted anything worth noting yet” you were “null I don’t know what his motivations are yet”.

Spoiler: 106

Fro99er, this is the kind of thing I meant by newbslip. You’re saying you’re not a newbie anymore and you’re saying you don’t need help, but here you are not knowing what a chainsaw is. If you’re going to say you’re not newbslipping in posts like this, then we’re going to go down the route of examining your motivations in

pretending

not to know what a chainsaw is and it’s not going to look good for you and some of that not looking good is going to rub off onto Shinobi (who you’re defending against Zoro here) but I’m not interested in Shinobi right now.

Spoiler: 111

This is one of the posts where you’re calling me town but you were just calling me nullscum a moment earlier and you have me down as scum again soon after that. This is also a pretty lukewarm surface read of me. It is interesting that you are talking about “the right mindset” about Lapsa who in just a few posts from now you’ll be claiming is slayer’s gambitting VI town. I’ve also since come around about Lapsa because he’s started contributing now but you’ve been weird about Lapsa since the beginning and it makes me wonder if you know something about his alignment that I don’t, for example your wishywashy reaction about how Lapsa looked super scummy and you agreed with my naked vote but at the same time I was being scummy for doing it and then suddenly you were absolutely certain he was just too scummy to be scum or whatever.

Spoiler: 280

Yeah, no. I’m getting better at figuring out when to use my out loud voice but you saw me being accused of rolefishing by BBT on page 1 of exotic birds for asking if everyone got the role they wanted (I thought I was alignment fishing at the time), and I learned not to do that. And then in the Zar show which you skimmed I was talking about cop crumbs as town which is a lot worse than talking about VT crumbs, and I learned from that experience too. And then here I pointed it out because I thought what he was doing was scummy or antitown at best (in large part because of what Zar said in the end game of the Zar show). I’m not really interested in reopening the crumbs argument right now though.

Spoiler: 280 continued

And this is another point that I passed off as a newbslip.
1) OMGUS is not a scumtell. town does it just as much as scum does and a lot of the time people do it jokingly or tongue-in-cheekedly.
2) it wasn’t OMGUS. I had real things that were concerning me about CB’s post and I explained them.
3) Everybody’s read on CB was based on one post because he had only one post at the time. Sheesh. BBT had a townread on him for that one post. And it wasn’t a fluff post, it was a wall with opinions on the gamestate that touched on a lot of things.

Spoiler: 280 continued some more

This is a really weak case. OMGUS + low activity + you seem to have missed where I said that I wanted to finish ISO diving before knowing how all my reads would settle out and that I didn’t yet know at the time where CB would end up.

Spoiler: 290

In post 290, Fro99er wrote:
In post 289, Plotinus wrote:i promise i’ll engage with this on a deeper level tomorrow or something, but i think i have food poisoning from last night’s dinner and i havent been able to eat anything today and I only got a few hour’s sleep.[/quote[]
First of all, feel better soon!

In post 289, Plotinus wrote:I don’t mind you pushing me like this because it helps me get reads if people push on me but I don’t really understand your push right now either.

This is actually a good mindset.

but briefly, the part that felt like a misrep was:

In post 147, CB wrote:
Plotinus:
I really don't like 48. Seems really noncommittal. I mean he is one of two people you have played with and you don't feel comfortable giving a read. What are we going to wait for day 5 to hear a read on all the people you haven't played with?

1) of course it was noncommital. it was page 2.
2) i haven’t played with you and i had said that already in the thraed
3) the day 5 part especially. that’s awfully impatient.

it’s not omgus. it’s also not that strong of a read yet because it was only 1 post. i was intending that to be part of a longe rpost where i went through everyone’s ISO and tried to form an opinion or figure out what questions to ask them but then suddenly it was 4am so i thought it better to post the 3 reads had and do the rest later. If i’d managed to produce 12 reads instaed of 3 i’m not sure CB would have even been at the bottom.

This is what I wanted from you in the first place!!! This is why I'm trying to draw stuff out of you, because you are so noncommittal and it does feel scummy. I'll need more of this before I move my vote (or someone else will have to be more scummy to me), but it needs to be your own initiative, not waiting for others to draw it out of you.

Real quick:
1) Yeah, but I found you noncommittal also by that point in time. Remember, I had 9 posts to go by, with plenty to analyze.
2) Ah, I see what you mean. I don't think that's a misrep as much as a misunderstanding. I think he honestly did believe you and I had played together, but it does point to some skimming of the thread (although he was catching up at post 147 so understandable), because it definitely was pointed out you and I hadn't played together.
3) He wasn't being serious about day 5. He was making a point about how we can't wait all day for you to get out of noncommittal mode.

But, this post from you is starting off on the better direction.

And seriously, again. Feel better soon!

and this is where it starts going downhill. You saw in the Zar show that I tend to take this approach with newbies to goad them into better play. Coaching everyone has worked out okay for me in the past because I do it equally to the entire town (except for the people who are more experienced and don’t need my help).

You seem to have missed that a key part of this technique is that when you assign homework you have to know what passing the homework or failing the homework would look like and you have to be pretty sure that the newbie won’t be able to follow through if they’re scum even though you’ve told them exactly what to do. And here you are acting like you’re my IC and like you’ve given me some assignment I wouldn’t be able to bullshit my way through if I were scum.

You might have also noticed that I’m not doing my coaching thing here (though the more experienced players might have found it hilarious that I was trying to teach them how to scum hunt).

So anyway here you are coaching me when I have more completed games than you do and don’t need your help and since I’m town this comes off like buddying and it’s also one of the reasons people will wagon me after you die but I’m getting nightkilled early anyway this game so whatever.

Spoiler: 378

And here’s where I had that strong visceral reaction that started this argument and your explanation for what you were saying instead is still incomprehensible to me but if a bunch of people tell me that i’m overreacting to this then I’ll take that under advisement. To me, this looked like you were claiming scum with me and claiming to have started a counterwagon to my wagon which I couldn’t find any evidence of in the vote counts in Aeronaut’s ISO, but from the posts that followed this one it does look like a lot of people were wondering what you were saying.

Spoiler: 458

Fro99er you have two choices. Either you are newbslipping (which doesn’t mean that you’re stupid or dumb or bad or scum or anything. it just means that you are being incorrect) or you are:
1) on again off again buddying me
2) giving inaccurate information about what sorts of things are alignment indicative for me
3) coaching me
4) creating false associative tells between yourself and a town-aligned player (me) so that i will look bad after you flip scum
5) something incomprehensible about a counterwagon

Spoiler: 460

my problems with both of these slots have absolutely nothing to do with OMGUS. I don’t care about being voted. I don’t mind being scumread. I don’t mind a little heat on me.

Spoiler: 462

1) You’ve never seen scumPlot at all.
2) You think the difference between my town game and my scum game is that as scum I say “what the fuck” and as town I say “Goodness, kind sir, I am most surprised by your astonishing remarks”? or what?

Spoiler: 463

translation, then: I saw you say something astonishing that produced a strong visceral reaction in me. Instead of full out death tunnel, I tried to use communication first, giving you plenty of outs and practically begging you to convince me this is TvT so that we can skip this because nobody wants to watch us bicker for 20 pages (especially if it turns out to be TvT after all).

And even this post is kind of giving me pause because you think scum mindset is “I am going to deathtunnel a townie during the day and then I’ll nightkill them for the lulz”? I am trying to figure out if posts like this are newbslips (“I have never been scum before and never had a scum mindset and have no idea what scum actually thing like and that’s why my cases are this weak”) or you trying to emulate the mindset you had as a pristine townie before you got your scum role pm in this game. You say you’re not a newbie anymore. You say these aren’t newbslips. Fine. Then you’re doing this on purpose. You’re misrepping me. For some reason you want people to think that I would threaten you like this in public and then nightkill you. What does this even mean.

Spoiler: 466

I was holding back then. You’re acting like there aren’t steps that come after voting (which is weird because earlier you were accusing me of not pursuing my CB vote when he was barely posting). I didn’t go full out death tunnel on your right away. I slept on it. I talked to you. I am still holding back believe it or not because if you are town then I believe you have it in you to convince me of that fact (without getting yourself modkilled or losing your cool etc.). I still like you.

I am scumhunting. I am not insulting your intelligence. I am saying you are inexperienced. We both are. Neither of us have seen hundreds of games yet, both of us still tend to think nonalignment indicative things are scummy. Not knowing things != being stupid. This game has a learning curve. We are both improving.

Spoiler: 467

You were fencesitting math earlier. You’ve only had null interactions with BBT so far (aside from this post). BBT seems kinda null on you too so far.

In post 490, Fro99er wrote:You seem paranoid

This looks like an attempt to discredit me.

In post 510, Fro99er wrote:I love how you thhink I need help.

We all need help, frogger.

pedit: okay, thanks. deathtunnel aborted. I’m posting this because I want you to know exactly what problem I was having and because I really hate when people go after me but refuse to make a case and it’s just: plot’s scum because plot’s scum or plot’s scum because gut (which hasn’t been happening here, thankfully) so I owe it to you to do the same.

I think I need some time to think about this and maybe cool off or something (and I am worried that you didn’t get enough sleep it was very late at night for you when we were talking and you were only gone for a few hours)

re: 514

1a) yeah, strong visceral reaction combined with a bunch of things from earlier suddenly clicking into place.
1c) I don’t mind discussing how emotion is alignment indicative for me because I don’t know if you have the whole picture but the best examples of townMe having an emotion are in places (including this game!) that I haven’t flipped yet so there’s a lot I can’t say.
2) one of those town options, yeah. but mostly just not feeling good (i haven’t eaten anything but pickles in 3 days) and some offline stuff that i don’t want to discuss outside of PM and I’m not PM-ing anyone i’m in an ongoing game with so just know that vague offline stuff that i’m upset about.

about the coaching thing, I’m truly sorry that I hurt your feelings about that one. You probably did learn a lot from hydraing with Mollie and you were pretty awesome in that game (I was spectating that one too). I do think that you can convince me that you’re town in this game if you are and that it’ll be obvious to people who aren’t me, obvious enough that other people will bang our heads together to tell us to stop this 1v1. I know that you’re not stupid. I think you are still learning. I am learning too. The coaching thing wasn’t a main part of the argument.

I’m listening. I really don’t want to get into a shitfest with you. I wish I could have made this more concise but I don’t know how. You’re last few posts have helped a lot. You don’t have to reply to everything, especially the parts that you’ve already responded to. I want you to see where I was coming from and I think we can resolve this.

Plotinus · Post Post #542 (isolation #50) » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:46 pm

UNVOTE: Fro99er. don’t feel like voting fro99er anymore. texcat has moved up a bit too.

In post 538, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
I don't see the scum slip. But I kind of like the vote. Usually, Plot makes herself town pretty quickly and I just haven't got that vibe from her this game at all.

yeah, i haven’t efforted this game as much as usual though i did some today. It’s not alignment indicative. i think i have been playing more like i did in elemental mafia (was hanging back there a lot) and I think it’s because that was one of the last games I started. I’m better as a replacement because I can hit the ground running, usually with pages of notes already done. This game, I’m behind on my private notes (except for fro99er’s).

i’m having trouble telling certain slots apart. For example, Shinobi and Chthulu are both coloured the same way in my head which is weird because the colours are usually at least partially avatar based and green and purple aren’t that close to each other, so I need to figure out if that means something or if it’s just more noise to sift through.

Or I need to catchup on my notes because I felt like peoples reads were dividing into roughly two camps and like if I could sort everyone based on stances they’ve taken (including refusal to take a stance) on the various major events so far there might be something in there.

Everything is getting under my skin today/yesterday. offline, too. probably tomorrow too and maybe the next day will suck, then i’ll be less jumpy.

In post 536, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:

In post 439, Plotinus wrote:
probably town: abuse
maybe town: toolenduso, lapsa, math
could be town: chthulu, zoronos, thor, shinobi
could be scum: bbt, texcat,
maybe scum:
scum: cb, fro99er

Plot, can you explain the town reads on Abuse, Tool & Lapsa.

Your reads are near enough the polar opposite of mine and that is a worrying sign indeed.

I didn’t like abuse for a while at the start and i think i need to reread him when i’m not tunnelling fro99er but i liked some of his later stuff. meh, skimming it now i’m less sure about his push on fro99er than i was when i wrote that. move him down a notch then.

I liked lapsa’s coloured numbers thing, how he quoted people and pointed to things that didn’t match up. i didn’t like his earlier posting but i like that he’s trying to contribute and making original points. part of the townread is rewarding him for contributing and scum hunting.

tool seems to approach the game a lot like I do, kind off in a corner rearranging shapes in his head until things start to make sense and that’s probably not alignment indicative but it looks so familiar to me that it’s hard not to appreciate it. he also seems to be scumhunting. Liked 339 from him, though I think information like that will be more useful on a later Day when we have flips.

Even if you disagreed with my fro99er push, did you understand where I was coming from?

I think some of my other reads have slid around a little since then too but i’m not sure which ones (this is mostly a problem in the null section)

It’s harder to read you when you’re stretched so thin like this, I mostly read you as being exhausted which isn’t alignment indicative, but it worried me that you were agreeing with CB and even he didn’t think the agreement was all that strong. want to reread him before voting him though.

don’t snipe at me, though. if you think i’m scum, make a case or vote me or something, don’t just talk about how i’m worrying you.

You should know that I’m pretty hard to mislynch, BBT. Even when I’m not being obvtown. (I have never been lynched or nightkilled before)

Plotinus · Post Post #588 (isolation #51) » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:49 am

I think BBT might be town, actually. Something about the way he’s been interacting with me. Even though his complaints about me feels kinda like burden of profficiency which is weird but I don’t think he’s being unfair about it. I’ve been really lacklustre this game and I have no idea why. I’ve read the thread several times over trying to make sense of things and I just can’t sink my teeth into it.

anyway, replies to his questions.

In post 554, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:

In post 489, Plotinus wrote:(yeah, bbt not voting is weird)

What is weird about me not voting?

because you’re usually excited about wagons and usually telling people to vote and saying you’d be more comfortable with them if they were voting.

the tldr of the frogger thing was

In post 516, Plotinus wrote:
1) on again off again buddying me
2) giving inaccurate information about what sorts of things are alignment indicative for me
3) coaching me
4) creating false associative tells between [him]self and a town-aligned player (me) so that i will look bad after [he] flip scum
5) something incomprehensible about a counterwagon

but i actually did want a sanity check on that because I couldn’t tell if I was just reading too much into things. A few days later, I now think that tldr was more like we both thought the other had insulted our intelligence. but point 4 was what felt like the biggest thing at the time (and incidentally probably the poorest topic for scumtheatre that I can think of).

Plotinus · Post Post #590 (isolation #52) » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:11 am

hmm, i can see a few things about texcat (such as him sitting on that tool vote since 37) but I don’t really see the connection you are trying to draw between him and my wagon?

also, he called my disagreement with frogger TvT which I think would be risky for scum to do because if you commit to too many townreads you can get in trouble later if they don’t make any convenient mistakes at the right time. that happened to me in my offsite scum game, there was someone i’d been townreading the whole game because she just looked really townie to me and she was doing a good job keeping up with stuff even though she had pneumonia and anyway she made it to LYLO and I had to either turn on her or bus somebody so I wrote a wishywashy wall about how i just didn’t know. so that’s why i think texcat could be town.

Plotinus · Post Post #592 (isolation #53) » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:17 am

oh, ok. it’s just you mentioned him and me in the same sentence so i thought it was related.

re: point 2. yeah, that can happen but it makes it hard to mislynch people i think.

Plotinus · Post Post #597 (isolation #54) » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:33 pm

Ok, thanks for the sanity check. it helps me when others tell me whether i’m being wrong or not.

Limited repertoire might be a large part of it actually, both in “collections of situations I can recognise" sense and in the "collection of mafia phrases other people have said when they were reading someone correctly" sense. What BBT and Fro99er are picking up on, though, is that I’m usually better at aiming the collection of mafia phrases in the right direction (if not neccessarily at scum, at least at a situation where the phrase makes sense).

In Elemental Mafia, a few of the early phrases I used were stolen from BBT himself and then he replaced in so I stopped doing it but that’s why he was townreading me there; I was using his exact words in situations I’d seen him use them before, and then I used a sentence I’d learned from singersigner and then everyone else townread me because it was a good sentence and then it didn’t matter that my speech wasn’t very communicative or that I was hanging back and trying to stay out of the way of people who knew what they were doing.

And then in the two completed newbie games BBT saw me in the situation was simpler and it was easier to read and I wasn’t thinking “I have no idea if any of these words are true or what they are trying to accomplish at this place in the conversation” everytime someone posted.

Plotinus · Post Post #602 (isolation #55) » Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:59 am

In post 601, CB wrote:Also if [Zoro] was mafia I don't think he would base all his reads on that fact that I am mafia. It would be an unlikely lense to look at the game through with perfect information.

Can you explain more about what you mean by this? I’m having trouble understanding the first sentence.

Plotinus · Post Post #607 (isolation #56) » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:15 am

Hi Bella!

Plotinus · Post Post #624 (isolation #57) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:44 am

In post 603, CB wrote:
In post 602, Plotinus wrote:
In post 601, CB wrote:Also if [Zoro] was mafia I don't think he would base all his reads on that fact that I am mafia. It would be an unlikely lense to look at the game through with perfect information.

Can you explain more about what you mean by this? I’m having trouble understanding the first sentence.

Townreads Lapsa because Lapsa scumreads me.
Townreads you because he agreed with your push on me
Scumreads CD because he could be with me.

They are all framed in that I am mafia.

I spent a while staring at his ISO and while that’s a reasonable summary of his 596, it is not literally true that all of his reads are revolving around you: his town lean on bbt is independent of his views on you because bbt is townreading you. Also his views on abuse, frogger, mathdino, and shinobi seem to be mostly unrelated to you.

it’s a weird accusation to make. You don’t think he’s mafia because you think you are the centre of his universe and his reads? I think you are oversimplifying his position and leaving out the parts that don’t fit your narrative.

Plotinus · Post Post #627 (isolation #58) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:12 am

In post 625, CB wrote:
Not really something I felt that strongly about but it was more of an odd thing that I wouldn't do as mafia. Why attach the same wrong associative to three of his reads if mafia? I could only think of potential negative hit to credibility so I was having trouble seeing the motive but I did think about a bit more and if he thought he would feel the same way as town I could see him putting it in there a couple of times.

Yes you are right it was a figurative "all reads" instead of a literal "all reads"

I agree that basing several reads on associatives before flips is bad play, but I think there is more to each of those reads of his than our positions on you.

But anyway, can you explain the protown motivation behind pushing this narrative about zoronos instead of trying to uncover the facts about his positions?

Plotinus · Post Post #630 (isolation #59) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:21 am

Plotinus · Post Post #634 (isolation #60) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:40 am

In post 632, Zoronos wrote:@Plot
I really don't understand where you're going with this line of questioning plot.

is there a scum motive here behind CB's reasoning?
Because he's got the basics right. I scum read him, and was looking for his team mates.

There are other reasons to scum read CB, imo, but I'm failing to see how this is one of them.

I think associations before flips is a bit of a wasted effort but not neccessarily scummy, and I think everyone does it to some extent.

His reasoning seems to be that your reads on me, Lapsa, and chthulu/bellaphant are entirely revolving around you, that you’re townreading me solely because I’m making pushes against CB when I think you’re also townreading me for noobslipping and for not pushing mislynches, and your townread on Lapsa you claim it’s because he makes you laugh, but maybe some of his voting history has something to do with it — I’m starting to get used to Lapsa. And I think your problem with chthulu/bella is also not just about CB. Am I wrong about these things? Was he right that these three reads are only because of connections to CB?

But to answer your question, the part that I found scummy about what he’s doing is that he’s crafting a narrative. Scum need to sell a narrative, that somebody else is scum. They can’t just tell the truth all the time that their buddies are scum. They have to make a story that the people they want to mislynch are scum and that their buddies aren’t really scum they’re just misguided unless the buddy is beyond help.

Town sometimes get into the narrative mindset when they confbias, when they have a feeling that x is scummy so they go ISO diving to look for things to back that up, but it’s not the same thing.

Plotinus · Post Post #638 (isolation #61) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:17 am

In post 636, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
Do you usually see me voting during a catch up?

oh, good point. I think you wandered off midcatchup. Retracted, then.

In post 636, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I have played between 2-4 completed games with Plot, I've never seen her play in this way. When she uses 'mafia words' she knows how to use them and doesn't misapply them. You shouldn't read Plot as a newbie, and you especially shouldn't attribute her scummy behaviour and mistakes to being a newbie either. Unless we're talking newbscum, then we got something to discuss.

This is all normally true except the last sentence. Though the distinction between newbie and newish is splitting hairs. I have 4 completed games. Not brand new, but not a veteran either. Anyway, I’m finally starting to get clearer reads so that’s helping and I had a meal yesterday and another one today which is also helping. I feel alert and stuff.

I will explain the lifesuck part of what was wrong with me in private after the game is over. I don’t want people to townread me for sympathy about the lifesuck; it’ll just make it harder for me to get accurate reads.

Plotinus · Post Post #647 (isolation #62) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:37 am

Buddying crossed my mind. Also the two of you being scum together crossed my mind, because he seemed like he was both discrediting you and saying you weren’t scum at the same time (disparaging you about your reads list, but saying it didn’t make you scummy neccessarily, it could have been distancing), but I’m not scumreading you independently of that so it’s more of a backburner thought for now, not something i’m actively pursuing.

It looked like he was ignoring the reads you have that aren’t {me, lapsa, chthulu} to make a point. maybe that means something about one of the reads he was ignoring or he was trying to defend himself against you or i don’t know. but he wasn’t telling the whole story and I wanted to know why.

but if you don’t think he’s reading you wrong then i’ll drop it.

Plotinus · Post Post #650 (isolation #63) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:54 am

@Zoronos: you were partially right about me in that I do have a few things that i know to look for and that’s kind of like having a checklist, and I do have a collection of sentences i’ve seen other people use, but BBT is closer to right about the level of play I’m normally capable of. I’m not doing this on purpose, and this isn’t the only time it’s happened to me either. There are multiple reasons behind it. Being newish is a factor but it’s not the primary reason.

Plotinus · Post Post #653 (isolation #64) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:23 am

In post 625, CB wrote:Not really something I felt that strongly about but it was more of an odd thing that I wouldn't do as mafia. Why attach the same wrong associative to three of his reads if mafia?
I could only think of potential negative hit to credibility
so I was having trouble seeing the motive but I did think about a bit more and
if he thought he would feel the same way as town I could see him putting it in there a couple of times.

Yes you are right it was a figurative "all reads" instead of a literal "all reads"

@Zoro. bolded the parts that seemed like discrediting. he said that you are less credible because your reads are shaped the way they are. so you’re town but not credible town. according to him.

In 602 that wasn’t a push yet, that was me not understanding the sentence.

Plotinus · Post Post #656 (isolation #65) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:42 am

I have trouble understanding Thor’s posts but I’ll sit down with his ISO later and force myself to slow down enough to figure out what he’s saying and why.

Plotinus · Post Post #663 (isolation #66) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:54 am

In post 662, Zoronos wrote:(I enjoyed the irony of BBT making a meta argument).

(I’m amused by that too.)

Plotinus · Post Post #678 (isolation #67) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:48 pm

Whee I just got nominated for a scummy. And I can finally provide a citation for “something it takes me 60 pages to get my head into a game (but after that I town up nicely) so stop burden of profficiencying me.” This would have also been a citation for being hard to mislynch because I managed to survive scum faking a guilty on me (someone else was modkilled, the scum was crosskilled, the wagon never reformed, i survived another 5 Days) but I was just mislynched in 3p lylo so nevermind that part. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60945 (I stopped sucking around page 277).

anyway, it’s late so i will sleep and then tomorrow I will start sucking less in this game!

Plotinus · Post Post #690 (isolation #68) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:18 am

@Zoronos: by associatives i meant something like “if i saw two people interacting like this and one of the flipped scum, then i would be suspicious of the other”. I was overreacting to fro99er but basically if I saw someone coaching someone in thread, the way frogger was coaching me, and they were limiting the coaching to just one person not spreading it around, and then person doing the coaching flipped scum, i would be instantly suspicious of the person they were coaching. If either of them flipped town then i wouldn’t worry so much. That’s an associative tell. In retrospect, I was being wrong.

Frogger, I owe you an appology. I now think that most of what happened was I taking real life stuff out on you. I was having a really bad day, one of those days when everything is getting under your skin and the air is touching you too much and your clothes are touching you too much and you’d shed your skin if you could… and you had no way of knowing that, it wasn’t your fault, but suddenly you were right there snuggled close to me touching me and I know that you were just trying to figure out my alignment which is the entire point of this bloody game, I know you didn’t actually have your hand up my skirt but it was just one of those days and it was too much, too close, and then I had a meltdown in thread instead of stepping away from the keyboard and having it offline in private which would have been better. I’m sorry. It wasn’t your fault. I wasn’t communicating well and I was jumping at shadows and I had another meltdown later when my cat did basically the same thing to me.

If this game had started a week after it did, this wouldn’t have come up. It was just really bad timing for me and i’m sorry.

Plotinus · Post Post #692 (isolation #69) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:36 am

I’m torn between Thor and CB at the moment. Zor’s mostly convinced me to lay of CB though and Thor seems to keep getting into semantics arguments that are really hard to follow. Um, also Bella’s readslist looks awfully familiar and sheepy, like I think someone else’s reads are in the exact same order (though I can’t remember off the top of my head if it’s bbt or cb. will look it up.)

I think of the three Thor is what i’m most worried about because of the way he kept trying to draw other people into his arguments, for example drawing zor in to the mathdino discussion, not in a sanity check sense or a come on sheep me on this please sense, but in a come on let’s bog the thread down further with semantics arguments sense.

VOTE: Thor

Plotinus · Post Post #696 (isolation #70) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:18 am

bella’s readslist as stated in 669:

Prolly town: Frog, Thor, Abuse, CB, BBT

Scum-leaning: Plot, Zor, Math, Lapsa

My reads on tex/tool are really null. Tex is townier than tool right now.

my best guess as to what BBT’s reads list looks like as of his last post(671)
town: frogger, cb, zoro
lean town: mathdino, texcat
nullscum: shinobi
lean scum: bella, plotinus, tool
scum: abuse, thor, lapsa

so this is not a sheep of bbt, i was wrong about that. lemme look up cb too:

guesstimate of cb’s readstown: frogger, texcat, thor
lean town: shinobi, zoronos
nullscum: bella, lapsa
lean scum: plotinus, tool
scum: abuse, bbt, math

bah, i was wrong about this too. I still think there’s something incongruent about her reads list though. i’ll shut up until i figure out what it is, though. retracted for now.

pedit: @Shinobi talk to me about thor, then? I’m having a lot of trouble reading his posts even when i slow myself down, and I’m having trouble finding town motivation for a lot of what he’s saying but it could be a playstyle clash.

pedit: yeah i’ll try that in anew post.

Plotinus · Post Post #697 (isolation #71) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:37 am

So one thing I’ve been noticing lately is sometimes two people get into an argument in a thread

and when i’m on the sidelines and not in the argument myself it’s hard to tell what it means, whether it’s just TvT noise or something more important, but if you look at what the other people on the sidelines are doing there’s some alignment indicative stuff in there. Who is sitting back, content to let other people clog up the thread, who is trying to draw other people into the argument, who is trying to pull people apart.

I think town players who realise they’re in an argument with another townie or who are starting to suspect that they might be are more likely to be looking for ways to de-escalate, to give the other person a chance to back down without losing face. Asking for a sanity check is asking people whose opinion you trust to tell you to knock it off if you’re being dumb. Asking to be sheeped is kinda the opposite of de-escalating but if you want to put more pressure on someone to help sort them, and that can be protown especially if there are escape routes if you realise it’s TvT after all.

But I think what Thor was doing is different because a lot of his arguments felt nitpicky and semantics and when he dragged zoronos into it, it ended up being more semantics and lots of talking at cross purposes, and it ended up being two different pointless semantics arguments at the same time with two different people, and the scum motivation for it is inducing town apathy, making the thread harder to read, getting in the way of other people scumhunting because everything’s bogged down in these tiny details and it’s hard to have a conversation around something like that.

I’ve been staring at his ISO for a few days, off and on, and so many of his posts it’s hard to see what the point is: not to make himself more easily understood, not to figure out other people’s alignments (his reads aren’t evolving very much as time passes). It’s just noise. It’s antitown.

I will continue staring at his ISO and trying to make sense of it. But that’s where I’m at with Thor at the moment.

Plotinus · Post Post #700 (isolation #72) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:04 am

Bella, when i first saw your reads list, it looked like something was off about it to me. I then went and did my homework to try to find out what it was. Then I reported back that actually, the thing that I thought was wrong wasn’t the problem so I’m dropping it until I know what my deal is.

Maybe talking about the reads we disagree on will help me figure out where you’re coming from. Can you talk some more about Thor, Abuse, CB, Zor, and Math. Also BBT while you’re at because while I agree with you that BBT is probably town I think we got there in different ways.

The reason I talked about Thor a couple times in a row was because another player asked me to clarify what I was talking about. My stance didn’t change between those posts but I tried to use different words to show what I meant.

Plotinus · Post Post #710 (isolation #73) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:59 am

@Bella: If I had something concrete to say, I’d just come out and say it. But I think I know what you mean because it drives me batshit when someone’s entire case against me is “something feels off” and “Plotinus is scum because Plotinus is scum” which was happening a lot in my recently completed large and I don’t want to do that to you, regardless of your alignment. Gut reads are okay, but if you can’t find something to point to then they’re useless for helping other players understand what you’re seeing, and you can’t really defend yourself against them. Think of it as a note to self if you want.

Abuse: is sort of null for me right now. He might have been egging me on a bit about fro99er which is something scum did to me against another townie on day 10 of we didn’t playtest this so i’m a bit wary of him right now.

CB: I recently said that zor was making me want to back off from pushing CB and I’m still trying to figure out what that means.

As for Zor, he’s a townlean for me but he has a lot more mafia theory than scumhunting in his ISO so far. One thing I have liked from him is the way he’s approaching people and trying to work with them, for example trying to get Lapsa to participate or trying to give me the benefit of the doubt earlier.

Math: I’m not seeing it. I think that’s just playstyle for him. And I think trying to get the game out of RVS and into the serious reads stage is protown. I’ve seen BBT do stuff like that on page 1 and usually it helps.

BBT: Lots of little things reminding me of things he’s said to me in previous games combined with the way he’s interacting with my slot in spite of the “why isn’t Plotinus playing her alleged town meta” distraction. sorry for vague but it’s just lots of little “how his pushes against me feel from the inside out” stuff that I’m having trouble articulating. He hasn’t interacted with you much yet because you’ve just subbed in so I thought it would be harder for you to get there via the same route because you haven’t had time to have a conversation yet.

Thor: scroll up i did a wall recently.

Tex: His early push on me was kinda lame but the way Texcat responded to me vs frogger seemed towny enough to me. I can sympathise with the feeling of “ugh everytime i try to read this game by brain goes nope” but even I’m starting to get into the game finally so I’d like to see more from him eventually.

Tool: town points for actually looking up frogger’s meta instead of taking math at his word. His VCA is interesting (in a good way) but ultimately meaningless without flips. i don’t like the frogger vote because frogger is probably town and, again, saying what a person’s voting patterns mean without any flips is fruitless. Like, it means something whether most of the people he’s voting are scum or town. But i like the way he’s analysing player’s motivations, including mine.

Shinobi: is probably town. asks good questions. is trying to figure people out.

pedit: @Shinobi i’m currently leaning cb/thor/bella but that’s each independent of each other and i don’t think they’re all scum together.

Plotinus · Post Post #714 (isolation #74) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:39 am

In post 712, Fro99er wrote:
In post 710, Plotinus wrote:He might have been egging me on a bit about fro99er

That's interesting, because Abuse kept calling me town while kept saying my reasons were shit.

67 (seemed like a “get’s out popcorn” reaction which is not a town reaction), 249 is i think what you’re referring to there, something about the tone of 355, and then 479 if you look at what it was responding to you can see i was already leaning that way and he pushes me a little further in that direction. basically. it’s subtle. but it was subtle in my large too. it doesn’t take much to someone into confbias land if you can see they’re almost there.

bbmolla starting here (and continuing onto the next page; he was lynched that day phase and his posts are short so it’s a quick read. lots of little nudges and buddying me it what later turned out to be mylo. In hindsight, I should have known something was up when he said "you're like the one wallposter I enjoy reading plot".)

Plotinus · Post Post #723 (isolation #75) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:50 am

not true of texcat specifically, or not true in general?

Plotinus · Post Post #787 (isolation #76) » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:34 am

(my vote on thor was actually something that’s been building for a few days but the antecedent of my vote was shinobi telling me to vote for someone.)

Plotinus · Post Post #793 (isolation #77) » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:57 am

it’s not hard, bella, one of the peoople you said you’d be willing to lynch already has a wagon on him. just scroll up to find who that was if you don’t remember..

deadline scrambles are antitown.

Plotinus · Post Post #801 (isolation #78) » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:06 pm

i’m scumleaning her. I don’t think the only wagon that is compatible with her reads is a good wagon but it’s the only one available to her that matches BBT’s criteria and yet she’s not joining it. maybe too many of her buddies are on it.

Plotinus · Post Post #839 (isolation #79) » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:26 am

if we’re going to wagon me then we should do it really soon so that afterwards we will still have time to pile onto somebody else before the deadline.

Plotinus · Post Post #953 (isolation #80) » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:27 pm

@Mod: I’m going to be V/LA until 1st July. I’ll still be hereish and trying to participate but I’m buried under an avalanche of lifesuck right now and it’s getting worse.

Plotinus · Post Post #998 (isolation #81) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:46 am

frogger, you can tunnel persival toMorrow. i’ll even help if i don’t end up tunnelling bella instead, because persival is squandering the town lean i had in mathdino pretty quickly. I’d be tunnelling bella already but i’m not a very good wagondriver so trying to do it this close to the deadline would be antitown. let’s co-operate so we don’t get a no lynch today, that’s the most important thing right now.

Plotinus · Post Post #1009 (isolation #82) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:49 am

i’m glad you’re staying.

Plotinus · Post Post #1017 (isolation #83) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:58 am

In post 1017, Fro99er wrote:
In post 998, Plotinus wrote:frogger, you can tunnel persival toMorrow. i’ll even help if i don’t end up tunnelling bella instead, because persival is squandering the town lean i had in mathdino pretty quickly. I’d be tunnelling bella already but i’m not a very good wagondriver so trying to do it this close to the deadline would be antitown. let’s co-operate so we don’t get a no lynch today, that’s the most important thing right now.

Or you and shin and tex can join me and we'd have 5 votes needing only two more.

i’m in if they are. his entrance was sketchy.

Plotinus · Post Post #1059 (isolation #84) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:41 am

What is Thor’s ISO all about
can’t figure any stances out
how do the thoughts in it go
I wish he’d tell me I dunno
dunno dunno dunno oh no

Plotinus · Post Post #1070 (isolation #85) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:01 am

bbt, what do you think are the chances that persivul and thor are scum together, given the way they’ve been fighting all game. i’m rereading some of their argument and it still feels like impenetrable semantics to me.

Plotinus · Post Post #1077 (isolation #86) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:16 am

@BBT: ok. I’m currently scumreading both of them (was townreading math until persival showed up though), but I’m not reading them as scum together.

Plotinus · Post Post #1078 (isolation #87) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:16 am

(therefore either i’m wrong about one of them, or i’m wrong about the not together part)

Plotinus · Post Post #1105 (isolation #88) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:08 am

In post 1104, Fro99er wrote:I could compromise lynch Bella.

tunnel her for me if I die

Plotinus · Post Post #1107 (isolation #89) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:10 am

I know, I feel that way a lot too. I’ve got your back, though.

Plotinus · Post Post #1110 (isolation #90) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:37 am

@frogger: her push on me was pretty weak,

and large portions of it weren’t alignment indicative,

and she’s the type to look stuff up. i was at first suspicious of her calling me she but i looked it up and she did in elemental mafia too, so that’s not alignment indicative, and her doing it there was also inexplicable but indicates she probably read enough of my first game to notice that i came out as not a boy in that game after realising i was creeping one of the female players out by mistake.

but nonetheless she’s only played 1 game with me in which i played a fairly minor background role, but she uses words like “usually” to strengthen her experience with me, though i can give that one a pass because usually is right (always is not. citation: We didnt playtest this)

and then she says something about AtE which if i was going to do AtE then i wouldnt be being so cryptic about the lifesuck, but since the stuff going on with me is real, it felt like Brantz’s response to my meltdown in WDPT. the other townie realised I was actually upset and was nice to me (they still voted me, but they were nice about it). the scum sneered at me about AtE and then backpedalled after the townie was nice to me. it read as frustration with potentially losing a mislynch target.

+ with bella being the type to look things up and me actually having discussed at least some of it in the sad thread in the SE, it felt like she was doing it on purpose bcause i was reading it as knowing what was going on and using it anyway.

+ my meltdown earlier in this thread was largely a town paranoia thing and because i know that it is hard for me to imagine oter people not knowing it but theory of mind is hard.

Plotinus · Post Post #1113 (isolation #91) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:55 am

Spoiler: @Bella

retracted that bit about Bella, then. Maybe I’m still jumping at shadows.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:22 am

Finally finishing slowdigesting thor’s ISO and I noticed this statement

In post 674, Thor665 wrote:Oh, and whoever was sheeping the BBT case of "Thor has no reads" (I do believe that was the shining town beacon of Mathdino) feel free to leap in here and back him up

and I wanted to clarify that my case on you isn’t “Thor has no reads”; I can indeed tell from your ISO who you are townleaning, who you are scumleaning, etc. What I can’t tell from it is why. So many words and when I try to boil it down it’s a long tunnel on mathdino over “something about rvs” and a long tunnel on zoronos over “lacking expected amounts of town paranoia (sheeped from cb) + him defending mathdino”. And the argument with BBT is ridiculously nitpicky about what constitutes an interaction (though i think both of them are being nitpicky at the moment).

But what worries me more than that is that your reads are very static, with the possible exception of BBT. At times you seem to be scumleaning BBT and at other times you seem to be townleaning him. Also kind of frogger since you seemed to be townleaning him for the most part with just a few things you didn’t like from him (that didn’t otherwise affect your read). No matter who I look at, your interactions are either all positive sorts of interactions (townreading, sheeping, agreeing, defending, backing them up) or all negative sorts of interactions (attacking, tunnelling, wagon driving, etc.).

Oh, finally in post 886 his scumlean on tool turns into a town lean, pretty abruptly. so count that as a read that changed.
And then in 908 he says bella’s slot is slightly less scummy due to activitylevels but it doesn’t look like much of a change.

One of the main things I know how to look for is organically changing reads and I’m not seeing any of that here.

Spoiler: thor’s static reads

So I guess what I meant by “lack of stances” is “lack of stances that I can understand” or “lack of nonnitpicky stances” + all his reads are stale.

Also, I sort of feel like he spends too much time talking about himself.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:15 am

The =s are the ones I don’t really know how to categorise, some of them are defending himself against another player but not making it clear in that post that he is scum/townreading them. other times it’s just that he mentions them in passing, or he lists the people he has interacted with several times for BBT but since it’s just a list of names without reads attached they get marked as =. Outright stating that someone is a null read gets marked with = as well. nullscum gets marked -= and nulltown gets marked +=. v is vote u is unvote. +- is always interesting and so is +?-? but i don’t think he had many of those. I might need to start using more symbols.

The questionmarks are when I couldn’t tell if an interaction is a scumreading sort of interaction or a townreading sort of interaction. With BBT the reason i marked so many as questionmark is because they lookedl ike scumreading sorts of interactions but then in the first + he says that he doesn’t think scum BBT would pick a fight with him so BBT is probably town and then they go back to fighting and it looks like scumreading interactions again but who knows.

The critical points are usually the first + after a string of - or visa versa, the changing points that show that something happened in there to make it clear.

Talking more might help but i’ve been trying to avoid having more meltdowns in thread but talking is working right now so let’s keep doing it.

My main impression of Thor’s ISO is that it’s all so nitpicky, because if his issue with mathdino-now-persivul isn’t just RVS then it’s not clear what his issue is and it’s page 46 so why isn’t there anything but RVS to talk about? and the same with the zor slot, lots and lots of interactions but it’s all about the same topic and just restating the same thing again and again.

I think some of it might be scum theatre.

The +- thing is great once we have flips (especially scumflips. i’ve caught scum this way before and cleared people as town this way before) but at this stage of the game it’s mostly good for “does this person’s reads make any sense at all, are they changing over time in normal ways, how healthy is the tunnel they’re in, etc.”

pedit: @tool she’s summarising my summary of thor’s readslist.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:17 am

In post 1136, Plotinus wrote:The =s are the ones I don’t really know how to categorise, some of them are defending himself against another player but not making it clear in that post that he is scum/townreading them. other times it’s just that he mentions them in passing, or he lists the people he has interacted with several times for BBT but since it’s just a list of names without reads attached they get marked as =. Outright stating that someone is a null read gets marked with = as well. nullscum gets marked -= and nulltown gets marked +=. v is vote u is unvote. +- is always interesting and so is +?-? but i don’t think he had many of those. I might need to start using more symbols.

the reason i even bother marking a lot of those meaningless interactions (like listing people’s names without interacting) is that if someone has no interactions with anybody at all, not even listing their name in a list of names, then that’s suspicious.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:23 am

In post 1138, toolenduso wrote:
In post 1136, Plotinus wrote:pedit: @tool she’s summarising my summary of thor’s readslist.

OK. I still have no idea what any of it means.

Have you tried reading 1131?

The tl;dr is that thor’s reads are all stale, with very few changes of mind to take into account new information and that this is troubling on page 46.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:38 am

In post 1131, Plotinus wrote:No matter who I look at, your interactions are either all positive sorts of interactions (townreading, sheeping, agreeing, defending, backing them up) or all negative sorts of interactions (attacking, tunnelling, wagon driving, etc.).

I should have put this in the key.

+ means: townreading, sheeping, agreeing, defending, backing them up
- means: attacking, tunnelling, wagon driving, pushing

(once we have flips, + can mean buddying and - can mean bussing)

+ and - have to be alignment indicative sorts of (dis)agreements, from the perspective of the person I’m ISOing, as near as I can tell. For example a(n) (dis)agreement about setup spec or mafia theory would be marked as =

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:41 am

Ignoring the numbers and symbols, though, I did use my words in that post to analyse what I thought was going on.

The +- thing is every post in his ISO distilled into a format that I can understand and make sense of, and lets me see the whole picture at once.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:44 am

it’s similar to what you’re doing with VCA except i don’t know anything about VCA and instead of just looking at votes i’m looking at every single stance on every other player to make sure things make sense. it’s not foolproof, especially this early on, but it has been working out well for me so far.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:38 pm

people should vote thor. his reads aren’t changing over time. he is probably scum. the deadline is soon. if he flips scum, we can look at associatives tomorrow. it is like the one thing i am good at. if he flips town, we can look at the wagon tomorrow.

@tool i read your wall and i found it helpful but it is after midnight so i can’t interact with it on a deeper level right now. i’m ever behind on my notes and you’ve been a townlean for most of the game i think but i don’t have +-s yet to help me try to see things from your perspective in the format i understand best and i worry a little that my reasons for townleaning you aren’t entirely alignment indicative (playstyle, and your overall approach to the game), so you’re next on my list of people i want to develop a stronger read on.

@all i no longer feel like deathtunnelling bella toMorrow. frogger’s almost certainly town. if thor’s scum then persivul may be scum as well. i’m almost entirely sure there is scum theatre in thor’s ISO and if it’s not persivul then zor or bbt but i’m townleaning both of them so persivul. if thor’s not scum, then will want to look at the wagon.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:45 pm

Hiiiiiiii Titus!!!! I made a case about Thor recently! His reads haven’t changed all game they are really static and stale and he keeps getting into nitpicky arguments where he just says the same thing over and over, like his fight with persivul is leftover from RVS but still ongoing. You should vote Thor. Thor is a good vote.

You can see my longer case with my +- thing in 1131, it is worth a skim!

Persivul is also a good vote because his entrance was really scummy. Also Persivul is the slot that was still having the RVS scumtheatre fight with Thor until mathdino flaked anyway. I was townreading mathdino until he flaked but then Persivul happened. You could skim Persivul’s ISO because it is short, he just subbed in yesterday.

@Tere: HIIII!!!

@Zoronos: Bella’s numbers thing was a response to my numbers thing in 1131. she was checking my work to make sure i wasn’t lying and then we were numbering at each other.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:00 pm

nevermind persivul’s wagon has almost entirely disintegrated by now. he’s a good vote tomorrow. thor is a good vote today.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:48 pm

Lapsa, we have 18.55 hours until deadline. people need to get off their vanity wagons and consolidate. not doing so is antitown.

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:10 pm

I agree about not voting town reads, I wouldn’t do that either. I guess you don’t have any wagonable null reads?

Plotinus · Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:02 pm

ok. you do you.

I could do dino/pers, though I doubt we have enough support for it to go through before deadline.

I agree that deadline scrambles like this are antitown. I was scum on another site once and deadline scrambles let us reposition ourselves however we wanted basically. I guess the solution is to go back in time and have less 1v1s this day phase and consolidate sooner.

toMorrow will be better. toMorrow we will have flips to work with and make sense of and things will start to make sense.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:17 am

@persivul: read 1131 for my long case on thor. also

[quote="In post 1173, Plotinus”][Thor’s] reads haven’t changed all game they are really static and stale and he keeps getting into nitpicky arguments where he just says the same thing over and over, like his fight with persivul is leftover from RVS but still ongoing. You should vote Thor. Thor is a good vote.[/quote]

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:17 am

In post 1184, Plotinus wrote:@persivul: read 1131 for my long case on thor. also

In post 1173, Plotinus wrote:[Thor’s] reads haven’t changed all game they are really static and stale and he keeps getting into nitpicky arguments where he just says the same thing over and over, like his fight with persivul is leftover from RVS but still ongoing. You should vote Thor. Thor is a good vote.

fixed quote fail

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:06 am

It is interesting that the person who was engaging in scum theatre with Thor is now resisting his lynch this hard.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:06 am

not person, slot. same thing.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:10 am

@BBT: i know, sorry. it's hard to resist it sometimes. but if Thor does flip scum I'm going to be suspicious of Persivul tomorrow. If Thor flips town then I'll do some rethinking.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:22 am

@Bella: yeah, I was suspicious of the way Thor and Math were going at each other in Thor's ISO. It looked like SvS to me, especially after Pers' entrance killed my townlean on MathDino. But obviously if we're wrong about Thor then it's not SvS so re-evaluation time. What is the town motivation in continuing an RVS argument through all of day 1 and not even making new points but just restating the same thing again and again?

I also think I was wrong about Bella. Her olive branch to me seemed really genuine and I think we've both managed to figure out how to stop letting out of game stuff / non alignment indicative stuff affect our reads of each other. I have gone from planned death tunnel to "not willing to consider Bella a compromise lynch today" because of our recent interactions. i'm not quite ready to call her a townlean yet but my read on her is a much happier null than it was.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:29 am

it is true that your question to frogger happened before her reversal and it is true that the events were temporally close together, but i’m not convinced that post was the antecedent for her reversal; it seemed more like a response to my saying what specifically was bothering me about her and then we crypticed at each other for a while about oog stuf and then things became clearer for both of us. i find changing gears to be difficult so i’m not calling her town yet but it turned out that i was mistaken about part of what was bothering me about her and that matters. i’ll still be paying attention to her and looking to examine her motivations, but the olive branch thing was real.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:10 am

VOTE: Persivul

claim makes sense.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:25 am

I still find most of his posts incomprehensible, but i absolutely believe the claim.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:54 am

if he claims how many shots it might give setup information away, if other abilities are also that same number of shots.

pedit: i spent a week reading your ISO in slow motion to try to understand it. i wasn’t optimistic about my ability to understand further explanations. if we’re both alive tomorrow i’ll try. for starters, everything in my case that was marked with a ? was a question, but it’s not so important to get into it now in the middle of a deadline scramble.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:55 am

(it was the parts that i did understand that i found scummy, for the record. not hte fact that i couldn’t understand it.)

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:56 am

oh, ok. that’s fine then.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:56 am

1280 was @Titus

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:00 am

In post 1282, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1274, Plotinus wrote:i spent a week reading your ISO in slow motion to try to understand it. i wasn’t optimistic about my ability to understand further explanations. if we’re both alive tomorrow i’ll try. for starters, everything in my case that was marked with a ? was a question, but it’s not so important to get into it now in the middle of a deadline scramble.

So...your working theory was "since I don't understand what he's saying, and also *some* (not all, some) of his reads haven't changed much - that means he's scum!"
Like - that was your concept?

no. it was more nuanced than that. it was that most of your reads had barely changed at all. like 99% of your interactions were the same. + stating the same thing again and again. and an rvs argument that stretched for 40 pages. you had a little bit of movementi n your reads but not enough to look natural.

pedit: i can understand what you’re saying in your bbt case, and bbt’s case on me was also partially based on meta but the way bbt has interacting with me otherwise is why i doesn’t want to pursue bbt lynch today, still townleaning him.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:09 am

i can try, tool. His entrance seemed scummy to me and I liked the points other people made about him first sheeping frogger’s thor vote and then not wanting to sheep thor’s vote. and Thor vs Dino didn’t seem like TvT to me and i don’t have +- for mathdino/pers yet but he might have been buddying me some. pers also seemed like he was reaching some early on. and then his push on frogger didn’t feel good and i’m ok trusting frogger’s read on him because frogger has direct experience with him. and then I didn’t like his attack on my playstyle.

also, providing unofficial votecounts is something i totally do as scum, because it’s helpful and looks protown and stuff.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:11 am

@tool I could do shinobi as a compromise lynch but i’m not sure it’ll take off.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:14 am

In post 1307, Titus wrote:
In post 1303, Fro99er wrote:Thor, why are you townreading the Mathdino/Persivul slot, when all game you were voting it until you changes to Zor (and even after you changed, you said Mathdino was still a close second in scum). How did Persivul town up that slot?

I want to lynch Frogger.

why? he’s obvtown

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:15 am

In post 1311, Titus wrote:
In post 1304, Plotinus wrote:@tool I could do shinobi as a compromise lynch but i’m not sure it’ll take off.

Plot Shinobi also decent buddies.

lol

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:18 am

I am happy with lynching the abuse slot even though I enjoy playing with Titus. I wish she had replaced into a better slot.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:22 am

people i’m not lynching:
townleans: bbt, frogger, thor, tool, self
nulltowns: tere, bella, zor

pedit: you guys type too much

VOTE: Titus

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:25 am

In post 1340, Fro99er wrote:
In post 1338, Plotinus wrote:people i’m not lynching:
townleans: bbt, frogger, thor, tool, self
nulltowns: tere, bella, zor

pedit: you guys type too much

VOTE: Titus

Why aren't tex or shin on that list?

tex was almost on the list! I backspaced her because she’s really really null for me and I asked myself “but would you vote her if it was 5 minutes to the deadline and you had to prevent no lynch” and the answer was yes.

shin is also very nearly on the list but not quite. i’ve liked his initeractions with me so far; they’ve made sense to me. he would be a compromise lynch for me.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:26 am

In post 1346, Titus wrote:Oh and I claim limited shot doctor.

i would be very surprised if this coexisted with my role

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:28 am

In post 1352, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:THIS FUCKING GAME.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:33 am

and that’s why i started townreading bbt, because i could tell he’d picked up on my crumbs and was keeping the secret for me instead of pushing me. (and part of why i was suspicious of bella earlier was when she wouldn’t drop it but she’s sinced dropped it so that’s okay)

pedit: yeah. i am counterclaiming. no way both our roles fit in this setup

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:35 am

In post 1370, Shinobi wrote:
In post 1369, Plotinus wrote:and that’s why i started townreading bbt, because i could tell he’d picked up on my crumbs and was keeping the secret for me instead of pushing me. (and part of why i was suspicious of bella earlier was when she wouldn’t drop it but she’s sinced dropped it so that’s okay)

pedit: yeah. i am counterclaiming. no way both our roles fit in this setup

You crumbed? Where?

the first one was hidden in the giant wall at the end of my frogger meltdown.

also when i said that if we were wagoning me we should hurry up so that we could pile onto someone else after wards, i was implying that i had something to claim.

also when i told frogger i had his back, that was me crumbing who i was going to target if nightfall happened while i was afk.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:40 am

so you outed me as a PR for no reason? This is a great time to apply lynch all liars.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:51 am

@Titus1397 frogger is not scum. frogger was believing me saying that the two of our roles cannot coexist. he was saying that if you did flip doc then that would mean i was scum for counterclaiming you. he wasn’t lining up lynches. he was being correct. frogger has known for a long time that i have a protective role. that’s why he was suspicious of you. if you were gambiting then you should have chosen a more harmless gambit like your bulletproof townie one.

you botched your fakeclaim. we’re lynching you. do more crumbhunting next time.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:51 am

@Zoro: thor claimed limited shot cop, titus fakeclaimed limited shot doc, i counterclaimed her. she’s scum. we’re lynching her.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:53 am

Titus and Lapsa probably not scum together. Titus and Persival probsably scum together.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:54 am

Lapsa, vote Titus with me

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:55 am

@Zor, yes she’s abuse.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:57 am

abuse was egging me on about frogger during my frogger meltdown. he was encouraging the TvT. in retrospect it felt like bbmolla in WDPT egging me on about BC.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:58 am

In post 1415, Titus wrote:Plot, you're new so you should read the wiki on gambiting.

It's where you do something untrue to gain information sweet cheeks.

BBT, vote Frogger.

you nth my scummy nomination. now you’re pretending to believe i don’t know what gambiting is. ok.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:04 am

how am i supposed to tell the difference between scum fakeclaiming and town gambitting?

also in that game I learned a lesson when Narninian faked a guilty on me and I didn’t react because I didn’t understand what was going on at the time. When I have a rolepm related reason to know someone is lying about me, I react.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:05 am

like people are blacklisting monkeyman for fakeclaiming jailkeeper as town in a recent game. I think better of Titus than that.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:07 am

….how the fuck is that a

town

slip, lapsa?

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:11 am

Titus, my crumbs were subtle until I was being wagonned and then they were al itlte less subtle and they were “i have something to claim” crumbs not protective crumbs for that exact reason. i’m not as stupid as you think I am.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:13 am

In post 1352, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:THIS FUCKING GAME

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:17 am

since i’m getting nightkilled (thanks Titus I love you too) I’ll just post all my private notes in a spoiler. there’s no words in them and i’m behind on several slots but maybe someone who understands me can make sense of them tomorrow.

Spoiler: numbers

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:21 am

key:
+ positive interactions (buddying, agreeing with, sheeping, defending, supporting, working together with)
- negative interactions (attacking, pushing, making cases, bussing)
= neutral interactions
v voting
u unvoting
+? unsure if positive interaction
-? unsure if negative interaction

key parts are where a read changes from + to - or visa versa. it is worrying it the reads don’t change at all or if the reasons for the changes aren’t good. it is better later when you can colour it in according to flips.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:25 am

Titus, the reason everyone is saying your frogger read makes no sense is because it makes no sense to anyone who has read the thread. you haven’t read the thread. you don’t. it’s not your thing. fine. you have your own thing that you’re good at.

I wasn’t crumbing protective specifically (except surreptitiously to frogger once i knew i could trust him and i thought i could do it in a way others wouldn’t notice), I was crumbing generically because I’M NOT AS STUPID AS YOU THINK I AM

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:28 am

I mean perhaps not obvtowning myself from early on was a tactical mistake but you’re supposed to hang back as a PR and it was really weird everyone griping about me not playing my town meta. and i did have some trouble getting into the game and getting reads early on. i haven’t played perfectly. but my crumbs weren’t as poor as you’re suggesting.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:33 am

In post 1478, Shinobi wrote:
In post 1474, Lapsa wrote:#1462 O_O

Yeah, seriously.
Wtf is that?

it’s the way i understand the game. i track everybody’s interactions with everybody else. it helps me put myself into their shoes and try to see the thread through their eyes. then i figure out their motivations.

then later after there are flips i attach words and say what it means so that other people can understand it. it’s for looking for associatives later. people who have played with me before and seen me do it can try to replicate it since i’ve provided the raw data that i have (even though i’m terribly behind on a lot of slots since i was focusing more on null reads).

i’ll provide links to me drawing conclusions from the numbers thing for people to use after my death. it’s not foolproof; i missed a mafia traitor with it in We didn’t playtest this. but it works well for me.

pedit: the number at the start of the notes tells you how far behind i am, it’s the last post in that player’s ISO that i have done post numbers for.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:36 am

Using the +- thing to correctly determine that the werewolf faction had been wiped out and did not have associative tells with any living players:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6886306

The very first time I used the +- thing to determine that a player I was scumreading (bulbasaur commonwealth) was actually town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6800170

my ISO in that game has lots of the numbers thing.

there’s also a much simpler case in the zar show with freeko, the obvscum who was scumreading everyone but himself and the townie he was buddying. newbie games are easier:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6892829

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:43 am

it’s not just associatives, it’s looking for whether reads are changing organically or if they’re going stale, looking for how people change their minds about other people and whether the changes of minds makes sense, flagging interactions i don’t understand so that i can ask the player about them later. but once we have enough flips i can test for “are they interacted with any of the living players in a similar way to how they reacted with their buddies” and I can see how their opinions compare to their votes and stuff. i can get some things out of it on day 1 but it gets better towards the end of the game.

pedit: well i agree with titus’ townreads anyway.

Plotinus · Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:46 am

also, when i’m caught up on my notes (usually only at the beginning of a day phase), i can figure out whether what someone is currently saying makes sense in light of everything else they’ve said in the game. and sometimes even when i’m not caught up because i tend to notice details.

@Lapsa: yeah, i’m fully expecting to be nightkilled that’s why i dumped my notes in their current undigested and unfinished state.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:54 am

Good game, scum. I died protecting you!

Thanks Aero, this was a great setup and I think you did a great job moderating it.

I’m sorry to everyone for my lacklustre play in this game.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:57 am

you were awesome, toolenduso we were cheering you on from the dead thread. you had so much of it figured out. we couldn’t figure out why thor wasn’t hammering bella either it was really weird.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:04 am

oh, ok. things like that are hard to see from the dead thread when you already have all the answers.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:11 am

In post 2582, Aeronaut wrote:Also, the cop claim. Because otherwise I don't think Plot would have protected you, and Shin would be on his own. Gj there

I would have protected Fro99er if it weren’t for Thor’s claim. I noticed him softing something and I later crumbed my role to him when I said I had his back.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:12 am

In post 2583, RadiantCowbells wrote:
You self-hammered.

I self hammered to make a point about how much Thor needed to be lynched.

You didn't lynch Thor.

Try again?

self hammering pisses people off and makes them not want to listen to you after you die.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:13 am

In post 2584, Shinobi wrote:I think the only reason that Thor was even forced to claim was because Blue hard pushed him in thread.
Would you guys have shot him if he didn't claim? Frogger probably would have eaten the bullet and that likely would have been blocked too.

I was pushing him too because he didn’t have any reads progressions at all it was just 40 pages of his reads not changing. I just was being otherwise too lacklustre to be listened to.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:15 am

that scumposting convo between thor and lapsa was pretty fantastic

@RC, no we didn’t lose because of you, we lost because of all of us, but self hammering is annoying and you shouldn’t do it.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:27 am

[quote="In post 2593, toolenduso”]
And I like Plot's technique for associatives. Makes things easier to wrap your brain around.[/quote]

I used it better in We Didn’t Playtest This. It’s more of a late game technique; on day 1 it’s only good for “are this person’s reads progressing at all or not”, but it’s pretty overpowered later on.

Watching people try to interpret the numbers from the dead thread was pretty interesting, Lapsa was right when he complained about it: if you haven’t just been through a person’s ISO with a fine toothed comb examining every single sentence on the level of “what is this person saying about this other person and what effect is this having on the game state, when they agree with this person who is being attacked, when they push someone who is being defended”, then you don’t know what the + or - sign means; it could be as innocuous as a townie townreading someone else correctly, it could be scum buddying or whiteknighting somebody, it could be a townie being wrong about their reads, or of course it could be scum being reluctant to bus their buddy or subtlely coaching their buddy or trying to tie their buddy in particular to a bunch of other people. You have to have it all fresh in your mind to be able to say what the pattern means; but it’s pretty powerful if you do it right. It’s also good for seeing whether someone’s stances match their voting patterns well or not.

It also helps me by slowing my reading of an ISO down to this glacial pace where I’m seeing all the fine details and it’s almost like i’m looking at the game state from their eyes and I can start to see their mindset and how they’re trying to effect the game state, what they’re trying to accomplish and from there it’s easier for me to see what their motivations are and which wincon they’re furthering.

A lot of people can get reads in a less time consuming fashion but I’m more of a late game player and the numbers thing helps me to see a bunch of subtle stuff that I’d totally miss otherwise and additionally the stuff I tend to complain about is stuff that’s harder to fake as scum.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:57 am

In post 2600, Fro99er wrote:I suck.

no you don’t. RIBBIT

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:26 am

(I hate being conftown too. it does terrible things for my ability to get reads and my motivation to play.)

Can we do endgame snuggles instead of screaming at the newer player who is feeling bad enough tho.

Lapsa was great. I was starting to understand his GIFs after a while. The one with the dog biscuit he was clearly calling me LAMIST and it was funny because he was right; I was trying to town up my slot when I posted that thing he was responding to.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:32 am

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:34 am

I’m sorry to everyone too.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:35 am

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:36 am

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:38 am

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:40 am

In post 2638, Tere wrote:

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:48 am

it was impressive, Thor! You did great!

And everyone is obvscum when you’re in the dead thread and already spoiled.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:53 am

people should do NKA around you more often.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:00 am

my nightkill reasoning is usually fairly convoluted. but sometimes of course you have to pick the obvious targets.

were you trying to crosskill BBT or did you think he was town?

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:02 am

Zor was playing my scum meta a little bit but i couldn’t come out and say that because while i was alive in this game i had to still pretend that i didn’t have a scum meta yet.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:31 am

It was a game winning kill. He’s a good player.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:33 am

That’s not alignment indicative; he was in 10 games when he started his one and he overextended himself.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:38 am

This is the first time I played against scumBBT and I did notice a few things about him but we’ll have to see how many of them hold true in future games. He thinks he has some on me after n1615 so we’re looking forward to our next game.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:46 am

sometimes even 3 games feels like i’m overextended. but my playstyle is really time consuming.

@Lapsa: what did goal-fish tell you about my play in this game?

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:49 am

@Tere: it’s my website. it’s linked in my sig. it’s a todo list aimed mostly at fellow auties because it helps with breaking down tasks and it is good for picking tasks that you can do based on your current pain levels / overload levels / time / spoons etc. so for days when you can’t handle washing the dishes but you could maybe clean off the desk it won’t tell you to the do the dishes it will tell you to clean off the desk and it gives you a checklist breaking it down into little steps because that’s the hardest part for us.

some neurotypicals use the site too i think.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:54 am

@Tere: I don’t know what he meant by that, but maybe he read the help page where I explained why i made the site and figured out that i’m disabled and then i dunno what that has to do with my role pm but ok?

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:02 am

I think people do tend to develop reads on me (in either direction) quite frequently. it’s pretty baffling.

I never really know what to do about it, though. If someone’s townreading me for the wrong reasons but I’m actually town, should I let it go or should I say “that’s not actually a town tell for me though” (i know not to say “but that’s not why i’m scum tho” as scum. i’m just curious about the reverse.)

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:03 am

In post 2675, Plotinus wrote:I think people do tend to develop reads on me (in either direction)
for non alignment indicative stuff
quite frequently. it’s pretty baffling.

I never really know what to do about it, though. If someone’s townreading me for the wrong reasons but I’m actually town, should I let it go or should I say “that’s not actually a town tell for me though” (i know not to say “but that’s not why i’m scum tho” as scum. i’m just curious about the reverse.)

ebwop

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:13 am

that’s really cool Lapsa. It seems you’ve got something that works for you in reading people. i wonder if you’ll pick me as scum sometime

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:18 am

you were right about the numbers thing that it can be used for nefarious purposes. i used it that way in n1615. but when i’m town i rely on it heavily to get reads.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:25 am

@Tere: the problem with that is that not everyone can see what you see. I remember in WDPT I was pretty frustrated with a player who was looking at the vote counts and saying just ctrl -f player name and you’ll see it. and i couldn’t see it. VCA isn’t one of my talents yet. i was too much of a n00b to see it. but i wanted her to explain it to me. she was conftown. i didn’t need an essay, just a few sentences would do. a few pointers in the right direction. and i couldn’t see it. she was right about him, i eventually came around about him too, and he was actually scum. but I needed a few words from her to help me and she couldn’t/wouldn’t provide them. and he would have been lynched several day phases before she was if she could have done that.

you don’t have to do a post by post analysis if that’s not your thing. it can be short. but tell us what to look for in particular.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:54 am

In post 2709, Tere wrote:(I am really not sure if I would self diagnose but my dad clearly is and I can pass but and I have to work really fucking hard at social stuff and I do a whole fuckton of nonverbal and if I can't just even I can't read noise and can't parse English but I don't want to be the special snowflake and this isn't about me but I've just come back to my home after listening to a ton of autism = rainman and ... my family and ... so I am not going to be rubbish about this so I am going to STFU but you guys a thread like this would be great for reals)

<3

even if you’re not, you could be a cousin. it’s okay to not know.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:01 pm

In post 2713, Tere wrote:
In post 2711, Plotinus wrote:
In post 2709, Tere wrote:(I am really not sure if I would self diagnose but my dad clearly is and I can pass but and I have to work really fucking hard at social stuff and I do a whole fuckton of nonverbal and if I can't just even I can't read noise and can't parse English but I don't want to be the special snowflake and this isn't about me but I've just come back to my home after listening to a ton of autism = rainman and ... my family and ... so I am not going to be rubbish about this so I am going to STFU but you guys a thread like this would be great for reals)

<3

even if you’re not, you could be a cousin. it’s okay to not know.

<3 I sorta want a Speakeasy thread. Non-verbal - stress getting upset, and stuff, yeah, easier. possibly. It might be easier for me. I just dunno. Thoughts? (If you knew my previous job, so hilarious)

yeah. think maybe SE thread be good, but nervous bout it being trolled or about being zoo exhibit. but thread for us to talk about us would be good. and for people who think they might be an us that would be ok too.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:24 pm

In post 2716, Tere wrote:
In post 2714, Plotinus wrote:
In post 2713, Tere wrote:
In post 2711, Plotinus wrote:
In post 2709, Tere wrote:(I am really not sure if I would self diagnose but my dad clearly is and I can pass but and I have to work really fucking hard at social stuff and I do a whole fuckton of nonverbal and if I can't just even I can't read noise and can't parse English but I don't want to be the special snowflake and this isn't about me but I've just come back to my home after listening to a ton of autism = rainman and ... my family and ... so I am not going to be rubbish about this so I am going to STFU but you guys a thread like this would be great for reals)

<3

even if you’re not, you could be a cousin. it’s okay to not know.

<3 I sorta want a Speakeasy thread. Non-verbal - stress getting upset, and stuff, yeah, easier. possibly. It might be easier for me. I just dunno. Thoughts? (If you knew my previous job, so hilarious)

yeah. think maybe SE thread be good, but nervous bout it being trolled or about being zoo exhibit. but thread for us to talk about us would be good. and for people who think they might be an us that would be ok too.

would you be ok with me starting it?

I got badly burned at a con last year because I ran a workshop for spectrum folk at a con because the spectrum folk said they wanted it a year prior, made it explicit pre con, labelled it as such in the programme, then still got burned by "liberal" mansplaining wankers who weren't on the spectrum saying you can't do that shit. because mansplaining wankers whiteknighting people. Wont be presenting that next year because that.

I think it would be an interesting dialogue. Just scared of starting it.

yeah, go ahead. not wordsing good anymore. make it clear it’s about broader spectrum, autistic spectrum and autistic cousins and other neurodiverse people and people who are questioning are okay and are allowed in but not zoo exhibit not puzzle pieces not parents talking about how much we’re a burden.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:27 pm

yeah. i’ve posted a bunch in my gtkas recently that i’ll might end up crossposting because people asked questions about what it’s like but i don’t want to be an after school special.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:33 pm

it’s like being post restricted in real life. but we’re used to it so it’s not bad. novel sentences hard. quoting people easy. (and then in my games “why are you saying things that other people said in almost the exact same words”)

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:08 pm

oh I misunderstood you then. I think it was because I knew I was being kinda LAMIST. CB was town, though so I was wrong about that too.

I’ve started saying “lol” in response to people pushing me as both alignments because bbmolla did it in WDPT and I strongly townread him for it even though he was scum.

If someone makes an actual case or uses words that i can respond to then I respond with words, but if I think someone’s pushing me but they’re not making it clear why then I just pretend they’re telling a joke.

but I really did spend several real life minutes laughing at the gif, so the lol was honest, too.

Plotinus · Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:09 pm

so when i say lol it usually means “ok i can see that you’re pushing me but i’m not going to dignify it with a response until you give me something to respond to"

Plotinus · Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:15 am

we talked about some edge cases in the dead thread, like if you’re at L-1 and so is someone you think is a PR.