Mini 1723: Town of Helen Day 4

[Rob14]

/confirm

I think I've got some insight into the flavor. It says Helen was picturesque. It also says one could go there for a "nice taste" Lastly, it apparently has some historical anals. Helen is obviously a big slut.

[Rob14]

@Mod: Are we in pre-game or Day 1?

@Titus:

[Rob14]

Rob, you wouldn't do Helen? You're not the man I thought you were.

I like anals, but not anals with breasts attached.

[Rob14]

I just realized I was being close-minded. If Helen does happen to be a guy:

1) I'd tap that.
2) His parents are dicks.

[Rob14]

But not the good kind of dicks.

[Rob14]

Is this thread Guys Pt. 3 or did I take a wrong turn?

[Rob14]

/confirm

I have no idea what's going on.

tl;dr: I'm a shit poster when sleep deprived and writing code.

Now it's like you never even replaced into this game.

[Rob14]

I replaced in?

Exactly.

I'm getting offline now to get some sleep. I'll be less scatter-brained in the morning, I promise.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Flubbernugget as one of the names I actually remember on this list.

[Rob14]

Titus' original vote seems like an RVS push at someone to see what squirms, which is town play. Silverwolf's response is pretty much exactly what you hope for when you make such a push - overly concerned, defensive, etc.

The SK thing is stupid and not indicative of anything either way.

Re: Setup speculation. Traditionally, 10-2-1 couldn't possibly be balanced for scum unless one of them was lynch-proof or something equally dumb. 10-1-1-1 would be interesting, but probably too swingy for anyone to want to run it. What's more likely here is 10-2-weak cult, since this is bastard. It

is

possible to have third parties in a 13 player, 10 town bastard game, but not traditional scum and an SK. Setup speculation with zero flips is a waste of time, though. It's also a waste of time to conflate "not considering setup speculation prematurely" with "is scum".

Basically, the potential scum tell here is the reaction from Silverwolf to having a vote on them, not the shitty reasons Titus is throwing out. I almost wonder if this is an out-of-the-gate scum v. scum. Maybe I'll dig into Titus' meta later and see if she's done that before.

Post #68 is Titus encouraging us to design a setup in-thread. That's major derailing.

I don't like Vedith's ideas (setup spec =/= inside knowledge, not in the way Titus is doing it), but they're town.

Titus and SW, can one of you link to all games you've played with each other in, on and off site?

[Rob14]

I should probably note that I tend to write as I read and then post the results with little to no editing. My thoughts may change between the top and bottom of a post. That's confused people in the past, so it's easiest for everyone if I mention it now. Any reads I deliver farther down a post are more relevant/more up-to-date than those at the top.

[Rob14]

@rob13, if you're looking at my meta, I play a shit ton, best to ask for a specific behavior.

I was only interested in the interactions/history between the two of you. I'll dig for games you both posted in later if I have time. That's a big "if", kind of a busy year for me.

[Rob14]

I should probably note that I tend to write as I read and then post the results with little to no editing. My thoughts may change between the top and bottom of a post. That's confused people in the past, so it's easiest for everyone if I mention it now. Any reads I deliver farther down a post are more relevant/more up-to-date than those at the top.

Isn't this how everyone does it if posting unfiltered like us?

Some people read the entire thread then write a post. Even if unfiltered, people naturally tend to post more consistently in that format because they highlight the behaviors that support their overall thought process more than those that contradict it. I like writing more as a stream of consciousness because it prevents that bias, but I would say most don't do that.

[Rob14]

I definitely did note the buddying "us", by the way.

[Rob14]

@Vedith: I'm saying that this is not a situation where it appears inside knowledge was used. Even though I think there are 3rd party possibilities, I can see how a reasonable person would arrive at Titus' conclusion without knowledge of the setup. I just don't think your read that they must have inside info is very strong.

And I'm thinking more about the "us", and I really don't like it. Your read on me is either very town very fast or you know that I'm town. Now

that's

an example of inside knowledge.

VOTE: Titus

[Rob14]

Titus, can you explain how you have such a strong town read on me by page 4 to refer to me as part of the "us" group? I'm just not seeing it. If you have a clear rationale, then I'll reconsider, but I don't think I've ever town-read someone hard enough in the first few pages to be willing to consider them confirmed town like you apparently consider me, based on your language.

[Rob14]

The stream of consciousness is the us by the way.

I don't buy that. I explained what stream of consciousness was without calling it that, basically, then you said that it's what everyone who posts unfiltered does "like us". That reads like "us" being town to me, not "us" being stream of consciousness.

[Rob14]

Stream of consciousness is a personality tell. Hands fucking down. Remember that game where I drew neutral. You didn't find me out because I was posting any less than normal or different. You found me out much because I was overexplaining a neutral as an IC. Stream of consciousness is NOT an alignment tell ever.

Responding to Titus, what did I do other than simply post in stream of consciousness and say I was posting in stream of consciousness that was transparent? Just give reads? Because scum do that all the time. Can you link to a game where you made the transparency argument in the past as town?

[Rob14]

@SW, I haven't said Stream of Consciousness is a town tell and it is personality tell. Transparency suggests town. That is what fuels my townreads.

Oops, also meant to quote that in the above post.

[Rob14]

That's how shitty scum plays, yes, but good scum can look for plausible scum tells that aren't accurate and "transparently" provide them. How would you not know that with your amount of experience?

[Rob14]

It was placing me and him together in the category of town that's actually scumhunting. Except I don't believe, in the absence of very specific rationale for why he would place me in that category, that he had enough information to do so by, what, page 4?

[Rob14]

Didn't I teach you a lot about how SK and scum are different in the Halloween game?

Second, SKs aren't relevant here.

VOTE: SilverWolf

No sympathy from me, you're better than this.

At the time you made it, was this an RVS vote or a serious/semi-serious vote? If it was serious, can you explain why you found this scummy?

[Rob14]

Upon re-reading the interaction, I'm dismissing the possibility of SW v Titus being scum v scum. The only reason I had to think SW was scum was a suboptimal response to being pushed in RVS. But if they knew the person pushing them was not genuinely doing so, then I don't see why they'd react with concern. I also recalled that we didn't have a confirm period, so there was probably no scum discussion prior to the start of Day 1 (unless they have daytalk). A scum v scum push early Day 1 would be risky with no discussion beforehand.

This just eliminates the possibility of Scum!SW and Scum!Titus together, not the possibility that either one could be.

[Rob14]

@Prolapsed Brain: Are you going to provide any analysis, reads, or contributions at some point, or are you going to continue to be passive?

[Rob14]

Also, why are you not calling out those lesser-active? At least I'm posting. O_o

Active lurking is worse than normal lurking in the first 48 hours of a game.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain

[Rob14]

SW vs Titus - Titus seems to manipulating/inferring a lot from SW's posts to provoke a reaction. Leaning town because it's extremely aggressive and succeeding in getting a response from SW. SW is overdefensive but frustration at being scumread for stupid reasons comes from either alignment, so still null on her for now.

I like where Vedith and pistachi0n are at. Rob13 is efforting a bit too much this early in the game but I will have to meta this weekend to see if that's normal for him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Aristophanes. Standing on the sidelines and sheeping Titus, fueling the flames of an unproductive and petty argument. We already have one person getting under SilverWolf's skin and using it to paint her as scummy, we don't need two.

You're welcome to check, but FYI, I haven't played a game in around a year, maybe more. My meta is probably stale by now.

[Rob14]

It's an easy push to make and feels like probing for the sake of probing, rather than probing with results in mind.

From a more theoretical standpoint than practical for this game, you have this backward. Scum probes with results in mind, because they already know who is and isn't town. Town probes to see who squirms, and then they go for the results.

[Rob14]

Didn't I teach you a lot about how SK and scum are different in the Halloween game?

Second, SKs aren't relevant here.

VOTE: SilverWolf

No sympathy from me, you're better than this.

At the time you made it, was this an RVS vote or a serious/semi-serious vote? If it was serious, can you explain why you found this scummy?

Serious. I thought SW mentioning things that did not exist as her RVS was scummy, especially when it required conflating SK and scum.

But how is that scummy? Why would scum choose to say you were scum in the last game in the joke stage? Where's the motivation?

[Rob14]

I did some reflecting for a bit on my past play now that I'm a ways removed from it and re-read a few of my past town games. I think I have a confirmation bias toward people who are more active. As they post more, they're more likely to say something that doesn't sit right with me and that leads me to go after people simply because they're bound to say something off if they're posting a lot. I'm saying this because, upon further thought, I don't know if my read on Titus is an example of that. I don't

think

it is, but idk. My take-away from my self-meta is that I need to more actively look for town tells and more heavily weigh them against any scum tells in determining my reads, since just looking at volume of scum tells isn't much better than rolling a pair of die, probably.

[Rob14]

That last sentence was more for my own use/record than it was for this game, by the way.

[Rob14]

Titus has had their pressure and reacted as much as they were going to, in my opinion. As I already explained a while back, empty posts are 1000x worse than no posts in early Day 1. I mean, come on, P_B came right out and said things like:

Wow, drama. Let me know when it's over.

Let's not analyze the reactions; let's just skip it due to "drama". Hint: If you define drama as two people arguing, all of Mafia is drama.

You want an end to drama, we can agree to Unvote for 48 hours and not to mention each other as scum (but have it presumed unless noted), we scumhunt other people. That would reduce the drama for all without forcing me to be fake in my reads.

Hahahaha sorry, this just made me laugh (literally) out loud. It's like two people in a relationship saying "Let's take a break for a while. We'll see other people, and we'll check back in after a month or so."

Sorry. I do have a pretty warped sense of humor. Carry on. (However, if these two are scum together, I would not be shocked. It's too much like coaching.)

I'll just claim my credit for posting, but you guys keep doing your thing. There's no content in this post, and it was well after RVS.

Also, why are you not calling out those lesser-active? At least I'm posting. O_o

Then, when I did start calling them out on their emptiness, they actively tried to claim the "hey, I'm posting!" credit.

Not a single post from P_B has shown any desire to find scum. It's shown a desire to sit back, eat some popcorn, and stay alive. That's scum, through and through. This is a much stronger read than Titus ever was.

[Rob14]

@Titus: I don't really count drawing a relational tell as content. They're useless pre-flip.

Titus is reading more like really stubborn and wrong town lately. I question why on earth he would write what he did on #171, though. If Titus ever flips scum, we lynch P_B next for sure.

Re: pistachi0n; Reads on players and specific questioning are generic statements about the game. K.

[Rob14]

@Rob, why are you drawing relationship tells between me and PB if they are useless Preflip?

It's not useful content now, but it can become useful later, and I'm likely to forget it. There's a difference between posting nothing but a relational tell and noting a dependency in your reads while also doing something useful in the short-term.

[Rob14]

Rob, 124 is an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

That's me questioning Titus' explanation of how he got a read on me, which I didn't buy. How is that not relevant?

[Rob14]

Like, what is the point of 167?

I believe I found a bias in how I form my reads, and I think it's not a bias that I can easily tell when I'm using it. I was announcing the potential bias so others can think critically about my reads and give me a firm kick in the ass if I start tunneling everyone who posts a lot. That's not a hypothetical; it's certainly happened before.

[Rob14]

@Titus: I re-read games semi-frequently. I'll come back across my own post. A good portion of my posts is me more-or-less throwing my notes into the thread, which many people don't understand. That's kind of the point of me announcing that I post my unedited thoughts as a stream of consciousness. You know, the post that you seemed to dismiss as unnecessary/something everyone does as town? Ironically, your confusion is pretty much what I was trying to avoid by being up front about that. Oh well.

[Rob14]

@Rob, Are you an Aspie?

No, but my brother and two cousins have autism, and that personal attack is entirely uncalled for. I'm stepping away from this thread for a bit. Users have been banned for using that slur before.

[Rob14]

@Rob, Are you an Aspie?

No, but my brother and two cousins have autism, and that personal attack is entirely uncalled for. I'm stepping away from this thread for a bit. Users have been banned for using that slur before.

I don't consider it a slur as I am an aspie myself. :$

Historically on this site, it's been used as a slur. If you didn't intend it that way, I'll assume good faith there, but please refrain from using it again.

[Rob14]

Are the heads disclosed in this hydra? If not, I immediately regret signing up for this game; I didn't remember to check for hydra in my first game back. *facepalm*

[Rob14]

As P_B's shallow posting is questioned, he retreats from this game entirely while still posting in other games. Still no significant content. I'm getting pretty confident that I've hit paydirt here.

[Rob14]

I'm getting pretty confident that I've hit paydirt here.

How much time do we have left? The Rob wagon isn't gaining anything and Titus has been looking scummier to me with recent interactions.

But suddenly, a new contender has emerged...

[Rob14]

I'm pretty sure Titus is town now. Stubborn town, but town nonetheless. My original read on SW was based on the strong reaction, but others have now mentioned that it's in her meta to be somewhat hot-headed, so that's more or less back to null for me. I haven't seen anything particularly town there, but the reaction appears to be present in all SW's games (based on other people's knowledge of her meta; I haven't dug there).

[Rob14]

@Mod: Could we get a prod of Flubbernugget and Hieirama?

[Rob14]

It's been like a day...haha. I was obviously RVS'ing
.

FoS: Ansts guy

Your only non-RVS contribution so far has been to FoS someone for requesting more activity from you, with no further reasons why. Contribute something.

[Rob14]

@pistachi0n: Explain with quotes why you're moving off me and onto Titus, please.

[Rob14]

Starting with the harder of the two, Ari has been somewhat of an enigma to me. I haven't seen much either way from him. He appears to be putting in some effort, but #205 seems like a lot of summarization over analysis in many places. I don't think it looks overtly scummy, but I have a hard time placing a post with that much summary into the town column because it's the type of thing scum can do to look good. So basically, it's one big idk.

By the way, just realized I forgot to answer about my Vedith read. His posts strike me as trying to sort through the Titus v SW situation, not encourage it. Scum doesn't hound on a risky topic like setup spec and insider info when no-one else bites onto it, which no-one did. Carefully considering his existing reads by asking questions. I don't know what here could possibly be interpreted as scummy. My read wasn't incredibly strong at that point, but he's as town as anyone here for me by page 4. Since then, the read has gotten stronger. When the Titus wagon was reaching a standstill momentum-wise, he questioned my rationale for voting that way, and yet kept hammering Titus, even going so far as declaring that he'd found her partner. Scum doesn't make that move, especially when I pull off Titus in favor of P_B and it's obvious the wagon is dying. Why help kill the wagon and then double down on it? Consistent with someone trying to think critically and find scum. Inconsistent with someone who's trying to secure a lynch and survive.

[Rob14]

As for Titus, that's mostly gut, with a healthy side of that realization I had about my bias toward thinking those who post a lot are scummy. I thought about it more, and the "we" "slip-up" is exactly the type of nit-picky thing that comes up simply due to volume of posts. At the end of the day, my gut is saying Titus is town, and I'm going with that for now.

[Rob14]

I didn't like the abrupt change.

Just as an FYI, throwing around my vote is very much in my meta. As town, it's my strongest and often only power, and I intend to use it wisely. As scum, I'm aware of my town meta and replicate it. If you look into my games, you'll find this is very much a null tell for me.

[Rob14]

@GL, Where's the attempt to sort SW from you if you think my reasons are stupid? When ika and mollie play in games without me, they can be some of the best scumhunters but by doing things that seem illogical or stupid on the surface (but they really aren't). Insulting one method while providing nothing to support it yourself is discouraging sorting SW. The fact you haven't asked her anything since I brought that up makes me wonder, just what are you doing to sort SW?

I have not attempted to sort SW yet. I don't think the things you are doing are stupid, I only think your justification for your conclusion is wrong. SW thinks "scum" includes a hypothetical SK, that doesn't mean she is scum in this game. She never accused you of being SK. I'm not insulting the method, just questioning the conclusion you are drawing from using that method. I can read you as town and still think your push doesn't make sense, town makes misguided pushes/cases all the time.

I will get around to sorting her as the game goes on and it would help if you stopped derailing everything she posts and getting her so aggravated that she tunnels/argues with you. As a bystander to the whole argument between the two of you, there's nothing I see in her posts that helps me sort her and there's nothing I want to ask her about yet. She hasn't done anything in this game so far other than get sucked into arguments with you.

Everything about this screams town. GL is now my strongest town read.

[Rob14]

Where'd he say he'd look through my meta? If he said it pages ago, I've forgotten it. He didn't say it in those posts, that's for sure. I'm an advocate of pointing out your own null tells as a proper use of self-meta, which is what I did here. I'll explain more post-game unless it becomes relevant, but this is something I've done before and been lynched for before. I know I've done it as town, and I'm pretty sure I've done it as scum as well. So it's a null tell. (A very meta discussion about meta ... hehe)

As for why that post is town: Town don't regularly admit that they haven't read through something yet, because it almost invariably follows that someone will push them for skimming or not scum-hunting. They're following my line of thought exactly about the SW/Titus slap-fight, and I know I'm coming from a town POV, so they get some minor points for that. More importantly, that line of thinking shows they're critically analyzing the two sides. They come away with two town reads. At this point, siding with one party is

very

low risk and potentially high reward (derail town, probably get a lynch out of it). With someone directly asking them for their thoughts on the slap-fight, no-one can later accuse them of purposefully trying to keep the distraction going. After all, someone specifically asked them to interject! There's no scum motivation to pass up that opportunity. She even actively tries to encourage space for all involved to do their thing.

[Rob14]

EBWOP: "read through" should be "sorted through"

[Rob14]

Hmm, you are right that an SW/GL team could potentially be a thing, but until I see anything that independently convinces me that one is scum, the relation means little to nothing.

[Rob14]

GL actually provided analysis. His conclusion was that he didn't have a strong read on SW, but he clearly looked at and analyzed the situation given his thoughts on your arguments. P_B has just said "lolz later" and then turtled when called out on it.

[Rob14]

@Rob13, I don't see analysis but at best a stick in the ass stating you suck. It's not analysis to call people stupid, summarize the thread and then say null which means no conclusion can be drawn. I could fake a null read on you with more content than he did. You just put a bunch of facts, then say null.

PB's condition hadn't been met. His condition was the end of the drama, it's ended now.

Having a condition to start scum-hunting is scummy. That's a really obvious statement, too.

And yes, it is analysis to call an argument stupid. Would you rather someone fake a town/scum read when the read is actually null? I've found no correlation between null reads and town/scum. I'd say I actually give more null reads as town, personally.

[Rob14]

Not everyone writes out their analysis in full, but in order to reach the conclusion, it must have happened. If you see a chicken, then you don't debate whether you ever saw an egg. It must have been there.

Forcing yourself to throw people into town and scum piles when there is a large middle ground makes it

harder

to find scum, not easier. Once you start looking at someone as scum or as town, you think about them differently. If you force a null read into one of those boxes, you'll find yourself facing confirmation bias that make your reads less useful. At least that's what I've found.

I have a response to the last two paragraphs, but I'd like GL to directly respond to that point first.

[Rob14]

Yeah, my memory is way shorter than that for an off-hand comment. Thanks for digging it up, though.

The problem is that when you start thinking in terms of a "town" box and a "scum" box and sort everyone cleanly into the two, you start looking for more town tells in the town box and more scum tells in the scum box due to conf bias. This results in reads that are less susceptible to change, which is my main issue with forced sorting. But this is w/e, probably should be discussed in the post-game. I think we can chalk up our differences in the GL read to a disagreement over how town should be playing and we're unlikely to resolve that. I'm happy to debate further if you like, but I don't see anything to be gained from it at this time. At least not that would help us in this game.

FYI, my reads list (in no particular order within each category):

Town:
Titus
Vedith
Hieirama
GuiltyLion

Null:
SW (need to see more; right now the Titus/SW fight is decidedly null for me. Original reaction was scummy imo, but other players with experience with SW appear to support that it's in their meta regardless of alignment, so null tell I guess)
20x100 (this will essentially always be null; I'm shit at reading hydras because they're incredibly antithetical to the way mafia is meant to be played and every contradiction can be explained away as "but it was the other head!")
Boonskiies (either bad town or scum; indiscernible at the moment)
Aris (lot of effort, not so sure on substance)
Flubber (needs to stop lurking, null tell for this player though)
A Simple Plan (has made one prod dodge post, nothing else)

Scum:
P_B
pistachi0n

[Rob14]

Mhm. By the way, I'm counting "setting aside for a reset" as a null. I win!

[Rob14]

Good night Rob. Catch you tomorrowish.

At the risk of turning you off to being pleasant, could you find an example of you similarly exchanging pleasantries in one of your town games? As I was flossing, it occurred to me that this is another example of potential buddying concerns. Almost went right over my head, too.

[Rob14]

I think Flubber's concern is that I stated earlier that my playstyle has likely changed over the past year since I last played. That's a valid point. I can tell you that as town, I would still throw around my vote, as it's a deeply held conviction of mine that that's the way you find scum. I can also tell you that as scum, I would copy that, since I know it's in my past town meta. Take from that what you will.

[Rob14]

I believe he said this isn't Titus' town meta...? What the fuck? Have you ever fucking play with Titus?

Please find me the quote where I said this. You won't be able to, because I never said anything of the sort. I've never played with Titus and haven't looked into her meta. I think I mentioned that I might look into her meta once, but I never wound up doing that; no time to look into anyone's meta so far.

[Rob14]

(I don't get his stance on why PB is worse than GL and little logical inconsistencies like that)

P_B directly tried to claim credit for the fact that he was posting things with no substance. He tried to say "at least I'm posting" as a reason why I should be targeting people not posting at all over an active lurker. That's scummy to all hell. He's contributed nothing but is trying to claim towncred from his posts.

[Rob14]

Well I can definetly say I'm not ika so you can always chat wiyh me.
Our heads rmenain ananymous,
~3

You're everything that's wrong with hydrae in mafia.

[Rob14]

I believe he said this isn't Titus' town meta...? What the fuck? Have you ever fucking play with Titus?

Please find me the quote where I said this. You won't be able to, because I never said anything of the sort. I've never played with Titus and haven't looked into her meta. I think I mentioned that I might look into her meta once, but I never wound up doing that; no time to look into anyone's meta so far.

More on this:

Unfortunately, the Boonskiies post still has me split between dumb town and scum. At best, he's skimmed the game, which is certainly anti-town. Anti-town is not necessarily scummy, though, and I don't see the scum motivation to make a haphazard push against someone who is generally not being scum read by other players. He did zero in on one of the two statements that have been made about him this game (the other being Titus placing him in her possible scum pile iirc), which is more likely to come from scum than not.

Boon, please read the entire game, for real this time, and provide a full list of reads with rationale.

[Rob14]

GL, maybe I'm misreading one of your past posts. Which of the following is true?

1) You've already looked at SW and have concluded that your read is null.
2) You've not yet looked at SW and have no read at all.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Flubbernugget, all of his posts are terrible.

Honestly, that's a "You're playing with Flubber" tell more than anything, if my memory serves from a year ago.

[Rob14]

Move Boonskiies to my scum pile. Around 50% of his case was him being befuddled by me doing something that I never did. Instead of owning up to that, he attacks those who told him he was wrong, basically saying they (myself included) were nitpicking. It's not nitpicking to tell you that a major argument you made is just flat-out wrong. Doubling down on me because I pointed out that he clearly hadn't read the game fully and defended myself against an accusation that was blatantly false is just nuts.

[Rob14]

@Guilty - I didn't get defensive for him saying I was lurking. I said it was a scumfuck move for calling someone scum for having two posts and not becoming active in the first two days of game start. He was flat out looking for something to fake a push on. Also, he brought up my Silverwolf vote, which was obviously a fucking RVS vote.

And there he goes again, proving he hasn't read anything beyond the comments next to his name. You're in my NULL pile Boon, not my scum pile. Or you were, anyway. I never pushed you, I just noted that I couldn't decipher between whether you were town playing badly or scum based on your limited posting. I never brought up your SW vote, and I even indirectly called it RVS in 304. You're pulling all this stuff out of your ass because you want to look like you're scum-hunting.

This is incredibly obvious scum, right here.

VOTE: Boonskiies

[Rob14]

Aaaand ... just saw the self-vote. It just gets more obvious.

[Rob14]

... seriously?

[Rob14]

Going to point out that I used to get in trouble for borderline trust telling with self voting because I would only do it as town. Not the case anymore, but I've done it far more times as town than scum.

@Titus - just watch all the flies.

UNVOTE: until the mod next posts. This should be a mod-kill for an attempt at trust-telling, imho.

[Rob14]

I'll place my vote right back on if the mod posts and doesn't do the modkill, btw, I just don't want to waste a lynch on someone who may (and should) face mod action.

[Rob14]

/confirm

I think I've got some insight into the flavor. It says Helen was picturesque. It also says one could go there for a "nice taste" Lastly, it apparently has some historical anals. Helen is obviously a big slut.

DID YOU SIGN UP FOR THIS GAME SO YOU COULD MAKE THAT JOKE

-3

Yes. Before signing up for games, I routinely PM the mod and ask them to write the opening flavor of the game early and PM me the exact details so I can scour the text for possible bad jokes. When I find such a bad joke, I immediately join the game.

If you were looking for a non-sarcastic answer, then no.

[Rob14]

PB not only hasn't posted today like he said he was going to but has posted in other game which I consider a slight scum tell.

He did the same on the day when he was "out of town". Not questioning whether he actually went out of town, just saying that there was some time during that day when he

wasn't

busy, and he chose not to post in this game during that time. I pointed this out multiple pages back.

[Rob14]

Might as well park my vote back on scum pending the mod's next post.

VOTE: PB

[Rob14]

Titus, are you voting PB because they're lurking, or because the posts that they have made are scummy? To be clear, I'm doing the latter, and I don't think it's a good idea to do the former (we'd have to lynch half the game if we did that).

[Rob14]

No mod action is required in this case.

He attempted to invoke a trust tell. Even if he doesn't do it

only

as town, and just much more often as town than scum, he did a specific action purposefully and then stated he was more likely to be town than not because he does that more often as town than not. He is very clearly trying to skirt the site rules with relation to trust tells, as these past quotes clearly show:

ALSO I CAN NO LONGER BE GIVEN THAT TRUST TELL SPEECH!!! I'VE SELF VOTED AS SCUM!!! MOOO HA HA HA.

Done it like 6 times as town. Done it once as scum. I can say this now without it being a trust tell. ttt

Eh, i flail more as town than scum, so I don't get what you are getting at. Also, I've self-voted as town 7 times, 8 now, and once as scum. I used to get in trouble for it being a basically a trust tell.

OH!!!

@Mod - this isn't a trust tell anymore like it was the last time I did it in the game you modded; I've self-voted once as scum, 9 ish times as town.

What alignment was he in all those games? Town. Who'd have guessed?!?!?

Boon is almost definitely town, even though I hate that I'm saying that. He's done this a single time as scum and then tried to use that one instance to avoid a ban for trust telling. I'm taking this to the list mods.

[Rob14]

Doesn't prolapsed... Do this quite often? He's not looking very good, but it's nothing that his Meta or RL things can't explain.

Do you mean actively lurk in general, the actual full-on lurking he's doing now, or the trying to get towncred for active lurking?

[Rob14]

I think we have to pm the mods and/or list mod privately.

Having reactions to this in thread basically turns the game into scumhunting mod decisions, as to who did what and why regarding this. I signed onto play mafia, not guess the proper mod reaction.

Therefore, anyone who has an issue should tell the mod and possibly the list mods.

That being said, If Rob and Boon are the same alignment the move shows an incredible amount of integrity on Rob's part and I respect it (whether or not I disagree with his viewpoint which I will not say in spirit of the game).

I've PM'd the list mod privately to allow them to look into this situation, but in the meantime, since the mod of this game hasn't taken action, it's pertinent to use the information we have available to us. That information may be game-breaking, but eh, it's not like I can pretend it isn't there. And that info points to Boon being town.

[Rob14]

And it hasn't been lost on me that so far I've put the most effort into trying to get someone modkilled who's probably of the same alignment as me. heh

[Rob14]

I'm not scumhunting based on mod choices, though, I'm scumhunting based on the evidence that indicates this is a trust tell.

[Rob14]

I don't interpret it that way. I interpret it as the mod buying into the "but I did it a single time as scum!" bullshit. Even if he is scum in this game, he should be modkilled for it because he's bringing in outside factors, which is the rule that "trust tells" fall under.

This isn't me scumhunting btw; this is me being really pissed that someone thinks it's ok to pull this bullshit and throw off the balance of 10+ games to date.

[Rob14]

I'm taking a break for a while before I start being less civil than I already am. ugh

P-edit: @Flubber: It's foolish to ignore something that we know. That's not using everything in the town's toolbox.

And to clarify my last point: If Boon were scum and used a past trust tell to throw people off his scent, that is still bringing outside influences into the game, which is still against the site rules.

[Rob14]

@Vedith: It's not provoking a mod kill to point out something that is

explicitly against site rules

because it breaks the game and ask for mod action. Boon provoked any mod action that occurs as a result of this, not me. I'm just pissed that I have to deal with this bullshit in my first game back. I signed up for a nice normal game of mafia (or as normal as bastard can get, I suppose).

@Titus: I think I understand what you're saying now. Was your concern that people would develop reads based off of the reactions to the mod's decision? If so, that's not a concern of mine; idgaf how people read me and I wouldn't negatively read anyone for having the integrity to not want cheating in their game. If not, I'm completely missing your point, which is whatever.

[Rob14]

Boon is town

Why?

[Rob14]

To much trolling

What do you see as trolling?

[Rob14]

A Simple Plan's been active in

six

different games since saying he would do something here. He needs to do something after his prod, or he'll be on the chopping block in a future day.

[Rob14]

Can you present one cohesive Titus case for me Vedith? I'm not seeing it, but I'd like to see your total thought process in one place.

[Rob14]

It's

not

something soft. It's a deliberate attempt to invoke a trust tell, period. For real this time, that's the last I'll say on it as I let the powers that be sort it out.

[Rob14]

A Simple Plan's been active in

six

different games since saying he would do something here. He needs to do something after his prod, or he'll be on the chopping block in a future day.

Every game I've been in he has done this and normally gets poked as scum for it.
I'm starting to dislike joining a game with ASP just because of the standard lurky play.

I don't necessarily think he's scum for it. Lurking is null if it's in your meta and you don't have a reason to do it. The problem is that if he never contributes anything, we can never know his alignment, and he definitely can't be allowed to make it to LyLo.

[Rob14]

Can you link me your last two town and scum games, Titus? I want to dig a bit.

[Rob14]

@Vedith, Do you have a scumread that's not me or a lurker?

Oh really, you didn't mean it literally? Then just how did you mean it?

@Rob13, Any specifications? Hydras no hydras? Open? Mini Norms? Alternate accounts (that are known to be me)?

You're in hydras? LYNCH WITH PREJUDICE!

Real talk though, no hydras, but anything else will do.

[Rob14]

That's a flubbernugget tell, not a scum tell for him. At least from what I remember a year ago.

[Rob14]

Which means he's saying he's more town than them. Ergo towncred.

[Rob14]

Granted, I haven't played with Flubbernugget before, but how long are you going to maintain "that's just a Flubbernugget tell?" It still doesn't make him town.

No, it doesn't. It makes him null. In every game I've played with him, he hasn't been very useful.

@Flubber: It was multiple games; I don't remember exactly which ones. It's been a year. I do read games that I don't play in sometimes, so it may even be a game I wasn't in. My memory isn't good enough to recall exactly which ones I'm drawing this meta from.

[Rob14]

That's a good question. I don't have a perfect answer for it, but motivation analysis, VCA, relational tells, and PRs could all be used to discern his alignment. Note that most of those aren't available until Day 2, which is when I'll probably focus on figuring him out more. He's difficult to read pre-flips, imo, at least from what I know having modded at least one game he was in and read or played in some more.

FYI this is year old meta I'm using here. If anyone in the game's played with Flubber more recently, feel free to correct me. I generally assume players don't change

too

much, and that's generally true.

[Rob14]

Found my next to last scum game non hydra based on last post in the thread....

Bastard++ http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=61812

I still think looking at games such as

Bowser's Mafia (Town)
and Newbie 1388 (Scum)

Are more relevant for knowing my base nature as either alignment before I learned much.

Why would I want old shitty meta instead of new interesting meta? People learn their self metas and play to them after a while, so the new stuff is what's relevant to finding tells.

[Rob14]

When I've played with ASP, he's inactive in the beginning of the game but gets better day 2 and beyond. That's what I'm expecting.

I'm not ok with that, though, because Day 1 is the most risky for scum.

[Rob14]

@SW: When I meta dive Titus, I'm looking at her general attitude and buddying tendencies, because that's something that is starting to feel "off" with me. It's very possible it's just the way she is, though, which would be a nice change of pace on a generally aggressive website.

Interestingly, the posts you've made recently have struck the same cord. A lot of agreeing with me. Not sure what to make of that. Mind supplying

your

last two town and scum games?

[Rob14]

^Answer to the Vedith question from SW?

[Rob14]

I'll be back with a meta-related post during halftime probably. Go Ebron! 48 more yards from him and I kick Lamora's ass in fantasy.

[Rob14]

I'll be back with a meta-related post during halftime probably. Go Ebron! 48 more yards from him and I kick Lamora's ass in fantasy.

Literally as I posted this Ebron went down with a knee injury, doesn't look like he'll return. Fuck me, am I right?

[Rob14]

@SW: When I meta dive Titus, I'm looking at her general attitude and buddying tendencies, because that's something that is starting to feel "off" with me. It's very possible it's just the way she is, though, which would be a nice change of pace on a generally aggressive website.

Interestingly, the posts you've made recently have struck the same cord. A lot of agreeing with me. Not sure what to make of that. Mind supplying

your

last two town and scum games?

I am not sure what exactly you find us agreeing on.

We disagree on GL, the reason PB is scum (to me it's the broken promise), the proper use of meta, which I will get to in my next post, how to handle the Boon situation and people's reactions, so what do we agree on other than being civil to each other?

The agreeing is SW, which is one form of potential buddying. The potential buddying from you (more of an "odd vibe" really) is more subtle.

[Rob14]

Nothing like the pleasantries in this game from Titus in her town games. In fact, it appears she doesn't talk much with her two reads at all. This may be colored somewhat; the first game is a newbie (so less people worth talking two) and the second is something she replaced into (smaller sample size). Mind going one more back for me Titus to your most recent non-newbie and complete game (i.e. no replace-in)?

Looking at scum games now.

P-edit: Haven't read above posts, will do so soon

[Rob14]

Nothing like the pleasantries in her scum games either, though, so meta doesn't tell me much. It seems from the games I looked at that Titus doesn't interact very heavily with her town reads in town games but does more so in scum games, but that's a fairly weak "tell" given the reasons I explained above that the town games may not be representative. I don't think the meta tells me anything solid, really. I'm going with my gut that Titus is town until I have evidence otherwise.

[Rob14]

@SW: When I meta dive Titus, I'm looking at her general attitude and buddying tendencies, because that's something that is starting to feel "off" with me. It's very possible it's just the way she is, though, which would be a nice change of pace on a generally aggressive website.

Interestingly, the posts you've made recently have struck the same cord. A lot of agreeing with me. Not sure what to make of that. Mind supplying

your

last two town and scum games?

I am not sure what exactly you find us agreeing on.

We disagree on GL, the reason PB is scum (to me it's the broken promise), the proper use of meta, which I will get to in my next post, how to handle the Boon situation and people's reactions, so what do we agree on other than being civil to each other?

The agreeing is SW, which is one form of potential buddying. The potential buddying from you (more of an "odd vibe" really) is more subtle.

I literally agree'd with one post you made which Vedith also said he strongly agrees with. I asked to compare notes about Titus because of my earlier confbias tunnel on her.

Can you point out anything else I've done where you would get a buddying vibe from? I don't know how we play this game if we can never agree with each other on anything or try to work with someone else on a read.

I guess I can ignore you or yell at you this game instead if you'd rather?

I might just be somewhat paranoid because I've had the early instance of potential buddying from Titus in the back of my mind for a bit. I'm trying to ignore it because the town tells are more significant from her, but it's coloring what I'm looking for somewhat.

[Rob14]

I somehow missed 150 from Ari. That's pretty damn bad.

[Rob14]

ASP is like the poster child for including a "prod dodges don't count" qualifier in an activity rule.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Boonskiies

My vote stays here through all days until he's out of the game.

[Rob14]

To be clear, that's not trying to pressure the mod to take any action that he doesn't feel is necessary. I'm just saying my vote is staying here.

[Rob14]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PB

No, I shouldn't do that. No sense in adding another person breaking site rules. I'm reasonably sure based on his trust tell that he's scum, so policy lynching him is playing against wincon. We can't let him get to LyLo, if only because he's incompetent, but that doesn't mean we should lynch him now. God damn is this frustrating.

Don't sign up for any of the games I mod, though, Boon. You're line #1 on a blacklist that's one line long.

[Rob14]

EBWOP:

No, I shouldn't do that. No sense in adding another person breaking site rules. I'm reasonably sure based on his trust tell that he's

town

, so policy lynching him is playing against wincon. We can't let him get to LyLo, if only because he's incompetent, but that doesn't mean we should lynch him now. God damn is this frustrating.

[Rob14]

@Vedith: Criticizing someone's ability to play the game is not and has never been against site rules.

[Rob14]

I'm v/la on weekends.

That's in his sig, actually. We should have noticed that.

[Rob14]

Bleh, I need to post more.

Silverwolf does look Town, she seems like she wants to figure the game out.

I did notice a little thing about Rob's posts, in the beginning he said he didn't like the buddying "us" and thought it was a quick Town-read. I'm assuming you find quick Town-read suspicious based on what you said.
Then you go and put me in your Town box in #226, when I only had one serious post. That's a little contradictory there.

Oh yeah P_B, I knew I'd get into trouble for doing that.
I have a habbit of defending players that I think are Town if they're going to be lyched. I thought you would've know this, A Simple Plan.

Quick

strong

town reads are suspicious. It takes an exceptionally strong town read to start speaking in terms of "us", which I found suspicious, but having town reads after a substantive post is fine. My read on you obviously isn't rock solid yet.

[Rob14]

That wasn't as long as I thought. Regardless, here's my next post.

Rob,
*insert something about that not being a trust tell here, then drop the conversation*
Glad we went through that.
I feel like you were far townier in my book before than you are now. The thing with Boonskies, though null, left a bad taste in my mouth. I've moved you to null for further notice.
Part of this is the vote for Boon, swearing you won't move your vote, and even coming back to clarify why you placed the vote and aren't moving it after some thought, then, after even more thought, removing it. It reads to me not as town reconsidering a bad vote, but as scum trying to appear that way.
If you were town, making the vote in the first place was bad. As scum, it would make sense as an easy way to sideline due to this policy of yours. Then, "coming to your senses" and changing the vote makes you look like you're trying to actually scumhunt rather than votepark. The timing of all this just feels icky to me.

I think I'll go through my 20x100 vote in the next post.
I would also be okay with a PB lynch. They are playing an awful lot like they did as scum with SW (Replaced by Titus) in Cheet's Game unless I'm offbase here (going by memory, haven't reread it recently).
Titus/SW, could you confirm that for me (or I'll do it myself, but that may be another day before I can get to it).

I have a history of being stubborn!town, and invite you to look into my meta to confirm that. Other than that, I'm dropping the Boon issue. We can deal with it in a later day if necessary. I consider him confirmed town, and that's all I'll say about that.

[Rob14]

On 20x100:

My CON is very FIRM

-head 2

This post came, as you can see, 138 posts into the game. There is no way they assumed we were still in confirmation mode.
Also, this post made me raise an eyebrow at the time because we were either right in the middle of or had just finished up a conversation on wincons and the fact that there is a role that can switch sides.
Phrasing it as Head 2 did, it reads to me as saying their wincon is solid, which leads me to believe it isn't.

The fact that two heads are asking about fruits has me thinking they are crumbing fruit vendor, but with the whole thing about wincons has me thinking they are just planting a seed in case they are tracked to a night kill. If anyone gets fruit tonight, I guess they're off the hook.

This is some National Treasure bullshit. These are massive leaps of logic that clearly aren't connected in any way. Throw in some public role-hunting/fishing and you've made my scum list.

[Rob14]

Yeah, you should of claimed that right away.

Meh, probably.
I figured I'd let the game start properly and go from there as a miller claim off the bat stops a lot of scumhunting from happening in my experience.

Well do you think anyone was taking advantage of your miller crumb? Meaning they saw it but figured you'd be safe to vote/Mislynch anyway?

Not that I noticed.
If anything Rob's "I didn't notice it but that post does look pretty bad" could indicate he saw it but was trying not to out it?
That's a little much though.

Nope, didn't notice it.

I really liked the 20x100 case, by the way. I take back the scum thing. You really need to stop the crazy nit-picking, though, Ari. It's not useful for scum-hunting. First on the whole SK thing, and now what I mentioned above.

[Rob14]

I'd be ok with a 20x100 lynch based off of Ari's case ONLY after we hear from ASP more.

[Rob14]

@Ari: ASP is the only person who we've heard nothing substantive from and have no basis on which to form a read. I don't like to end Day 1 with no info about someone. It's poor form and lets him slide by to Day 2.

@Titus: I'm mentioning it because it's the reason I was starting to scum read him. The 20x100 case convinces me he's town, but he makes it harder to scum-hunt (mostly for himself, but also for others) when he muddies up the thread with shitty cases. I'm not saying he shouldn't look at little details, per say, but he absolutely should think about what he posts and make sure it passes a "plausibility check" before forming a case surrounding it. The first rationale he gave regarding 20x100 was complete crap. No offense to you Ari, you more than made up for it later in the post. But I almost tuned out before getting to the stuff that was convincing because the beginning of the post wasn't even remotely plausible, and that makes it harder to catch scum.

[Rob14]

Just to be clear, not saying to filter your posts to sound town or any bullshit like that. I'm saying filter your posts to

make sense

before posting. Making sense is pro-town; it makes more coherent cases, allows others to follow you, and reduces the noise so we can focus on what's promising.

[Rob14]

Reasons?

[Rob14]

It's a role that investigates as scum even though the role is not scum. There's no easy way to find out if it's lying.

We definitely shouldn't lynch Ari today, but neither should he be in LyLo. Unfortunately, I've said that about three people up to now, I think, so that does limit our options on future lynches if we stick to it. We can probably allow Boon to LyLo, but we can discuss that later. I'd rather not open up that can of worms again yet.

[Rob14]

Ah, forgot about that Titus.

[Rob14]

You people are posting fast enough that I have to do a "catch up post" for like 5 hours. ugh.

@wgeurts: Relational tells only work Day 2. Looking for them Day 1 is kind of silly. You need flips for relational tells to mean anything. Don't fall into the trap of saying "I think X is scum, and X could be scum with Y, so Y is scum." Doing that will cause all your reads to collapse and be useless if X flips town. Alternatively, you could be scum making excuses for not scum-hunting right now. What can you tell us so far about independent reads you have (meaning no relational bullshit)? And no, "I'm focusing on something that becomes helpful Day 2" is not a valid excuse, since even if you plan to focus on that when it's useful, you can still do something that's useful now.

Isn't this original flavor? What's the point of a flavor claim other than to rolefish?

Ari's claim of flavor pushes him solidly into my town camp; it seems very plausible and unlikely to be faked. The way in which he claimed miller would be very odd for scum also, imo.

@Vedith's #575: The problem with just re-reading others to look for other leads is that several people are almost entirely inactive. I'm sure one scum is amongst the active, but I still think PB is scum. And who knows with ASP? Make sure you look at those that

aren't

posting as much as those who are.

I've played with a miller before. I've even played with two millers in one game before. I've never played with a scum claiming miller before. I'm sure it's happened, but I personally don't see any value in it from the scum POV unless under serious fire and no reason to crumb it so heavily.

Solid points from Titus in #579. I kind of still want a PB lynch, tbh, but 20x100 should go soon barring some unpredictable event.

Re 582: The fact that we'd find a live miller by Day 3 to be odd and lynchable means that it's not beneficial for scum to lynch them. The miller makes an easy mislynch when the pool is very small and chances of hitting scum are better. This whole "He's scummy if he lives" thing defeats itself the more you say it. The best thing we can say to throw scum off is that we'll evaluate Ari based on his actions, not on his claim. Take the WIFOM out of it and force scum to kill him if he's town and they want him dead.

FINALLY. THANK YOU SW. Someone sees the PB light.

Hey some content from PB, interesting. It's def not because he has three votes on him or anything.

Are you someone I know? You're talking about how I play but I don't think we've ever played together unless you're an NS alt.

Solid point from SW in 591, although I've seen town (misguidedly) do this plenty of times. This is fortunate for us if PB flips scum, as scum only tend to line up lynches from their buddies onto town (since they know that there's no point in saying "if TOWNIE X is scum, then TOWNIE Y is scum"). Gives us a direction to look.

Why do you think GL is scum, PB?

[Rob14]

My positive opinion of the content of 585 is his agreeing with me on the earlier posts, not this "he didn't show up when he said he would" nonsense. That's not even a scum tell. The actively avoiding early discussion is.

And it's not a post I've town-read. I have a lean town read on SW for other reasons (mostly gut, honestly)

[Rob14]

Oh, wgeurts is going down, make no mistake about that, but PB is the more obvious scum on day 1.

[Rob14]

We have 2 weeks. I don't see the rush to have a massive wagon leading to a lynch.

[Rob14]

I think we have to pm the mods and/or list mod privately.

Having reactions to this in thread basically turns the game into scumhunting mod decisions, as to who did what and why regarding this. I signed onto play mafia, not guess the proper mod reaction.

Therefore, anyone who has an issue should tell the mod and possibly the list mods.

That being said, If Rob and Boon are the same alignment the move shows an incredible amount of integrity on Rob's part and I respect it (whether or not I disagree with his viewpoint which I will not say in spirit of the game).

I've PM'd the list mod privately to allow them to look into this situation, but in the meantime, since the mod of this game hasn't taken action, it's pertinent to use the information we have available to us. That information may be game-breaking, but eh, it's not like I can pretend it isn't there. And that info points to Boon being town.

Well I'm not asking you to lynch Boon, I am telling you that I am just not scumhunting mod choices.


@SW, Ari's been absent across everything I believe.

Can you spell out in great detail what you meant in this post and why you said it, Titus? I know we had a back-and-forth about it, but it's been nagging at me as to

why

you would say this. Honestly, if I look at this from an outside perspective, it looks like scum coaching their buddy, and I've started to wonder whether it was set up to look that way.

Gogurts (I can't remember the correct spelling, so w/e) case is not bad, but I still think Titus is town for now. That may be confbias on my part, but I can't shake the gut feeling.

[Rob14]

It reads to me like you telling me to back off the issue because I look worse for being angry that someone I think is town wasn't modkilled. That's the perspective I'm weighing your explanation against.

[Rob14]

I don't think anyone

was

using the mod's inaction to scumhunt at that point, though, so I don't get why it was said.

My concern is that you could be scum that tried to plant a fake relational tell. If you were lynched and turned scum, that interaction makes me look very, very bad. If I were an outside observer with no knowledge of my own alignment, a scum!Titus flip would have me looking closely at the possibility of scum!Rob based on coaching. That's obviously advantageous for scum!Titus in that scenario, since it provides her partners an extra day of cover and an easy mislynch.

[Rob14]

It's a lot of little things like this that have been making me uneasy about Titus. The big things point to town!Titus (scum-hunting, engaging with people, etc), but it's hard for me to just ignore small things like this that I don't see a town reason to do.

[Rob14]

I don't think it's an issue of ethics, personally, and my original reading of what you said was more a caution against continuing to be angry about the mod decision. I'm not worried about being scumread or linked; I'm worried about your alignment. But whatever, if no-one read it that way, you're probably telling the truth. I'm just being paranoid.

[Rob14]

Prod received. Been busy, sorry...

Pleeeeease don't count this as a timer reset for a prod/replace...

Wouldn't blame you if you do, but dear lord.

[Rob14]

@PB: I still want an answer to the "Do I know you?" question, since you've commented on my play as if we're intimately familiar with each other.

[Rob14]

Also, I don't see how that GL post or even what you "call him out" for is scummy. Could you explain why that would come from scum but not from town?

[Rob14]

How is PB escaping the rope? They've been, simply put, nothing but scummy this game. They're labeling large portions of the game as "drama" in an attempt to avoid dealing with them or interacting with anyone.

[Rob14]

The 20x100 wagon leaves an incredibly bad taste in my mouth. It's made up almost entirely of people who have not contributed substantially, some of which are surely pushing the main wagon to escape scrutiny. That counts Flubber, PB, Boon, and to a much lesser degree pista. ASP as well is clearly setting up a move onto this wagon in 670. Titus has her own reasons to wish to escape scrutiny at the moment if scum as well. When a wagon is being pushed by a group that consists of a combination of every major scum read from all players in the game, it virtually guarantees scum is on it.

Meanwhile, the Titus wagon consists of Vedith (a town read for me), 20x100 (formerly a scum read, more null after recent contributions), and SW (a town read). Vedith and SW have no reason to vote Titus to escape scrutiny. SW would probably benefit as scum from voting anyone

but

Titus.

I have no confidence in this wagon based on the people that make it up. Absolutely zero.

[Rob14]

^ AtE! Lynch her, lynch her!

[Rob14]

That was sarcasm, in case there are any particularly thick individuals among us.

[Rob14]

You've done it disproportionally as town and you brought it up with the intent of convincing people you're town. Ways you broke site rules:

1) Bringing outside influences into this game and every other you've done this in. THIS is the rule against trust tells, but trust tells are only a subset of the rule. Even if what you did doesn't fit the exact definition of a trust tell, it's clear that you influenced this game using a "tell" that you purposefully created to indicate you're town. That breaks this rule.

2) Playing against your win condition in every scum game you've played in since establishing this tell, as you could have self-voted there in an attempt to increase your chances of surviving.

It's not a coincidence that you've done this once as scum and 10+ times as town. It's also not a coincidence that after every single instance I've seen of you self-voting, you quickly follow it up with a statement saying that you do it more often as town than scum, often with exact numbers to ensure people understand how much more likely you are to be town than scum. You know exactly what you're doing. In the future, play the damn game instead of trying to rules lawyer your way into a game-breaking strategy.

[Rob14]

ASP not voting is null, yes. But the fact that they're gearing up to join the wagon is one more example of someone who has barely contributed popping out of the woodwork and supporting the 20x100 lynch. There's a reason that a thousand lurkers popped out of nowhere and hopped on a wagon that materialized out of nowhere. That reason does not come from a town perspective.

Vedith hasn't tunneled you nearly as much as you're claiming. He defended you against my "we" tell, saying that I was unfairly nitpicking. He's provided many town reads with explanations (an uncommon behavior for scum, although not at all unheard of), asked several questions, and appears to be scum-hunting.

Based on the way wagons are forming at the moment, you're quickly shifting into my scum category. Like I said above, this 20x100 wagon is

not

a coincidence. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire scum team was in the wagon on 20x100 (+ ASP, who might as well be on the wagon imo).

Found this while going through Vedith's ISO again:

@Vedith - What's your read on PB? You asked them a question earlier that appeared to indicate you were suspicious and then never talked about them again.

[Rob14]

VOTE: Titus

[Rob14]

The last thing you should be feeling is frustrated but thrilled.

It's comments like these that make me question whether the SW blow-up at the beginning of the game was manipulated. You yourself have claimed you know how she operates very well, as you were her mentor. You presumably know how to push her buttons.

[Rob14]

@Ari, That's a scummy mindset. We remove the scum, such as 20 who are fueling the feud then the feud will end naturally or SW will be outed as scum.

Sometimes fueds that are T v T are pushed by sum, particularly if they can lurk and get away with it.

Okay, so who are the main perpetrators in fueling the feud and using it to lurk away?

Vedith and 20 IMO.

How convenient. The only people other than SW (who's in the conflict) and me (who, let's be honest, is bordering on unlynchable for the moment based on the amount of people town-reading me).

[Rob14]

EBWOP: How convenient. The only people other than SW (who's in the conflict) and me (who, let's be honest, is bordering on unlynchable for the moment based on the amount of people town-reading me)

who are on your wagon

.

[Rob14]

@Ari: Please remove the L-1. ASP is very likely to quick-hammer imo. Say that you've placed your vote on Wgrts in spirit or whatever, but please do not leave it at L-1.

Even if you disagree with me, please work with me on this.

[Rob14]

Lynch me please.

I'm too frustrated to continue.

Can you stop comments like these? Rob13, who I think is obvious town to most everyone, just voted to mislynch me. The last thing you should be feeling is frustrated but thrilled.

@Ari, That's a scummy mindset. We remove the scum, such as 20 who are fueling the feud then the feud will end naturally or SW will be outed as scum.

Sometimes fueds that are T v T are pushed by sum, particularly if they can lurk and get away with it.

These two comments are

consecutive

posts from Titus. Notice how in the first one she's saying SW could be town so Ari is being anti-town by saying we must lynch one of them. Next one she's talking to SW condescendingly as if she is confirmed scum.

This is

NOT

consistent with town motivations. It's consistent with scum survival instinct. She doesn't want to enter into a 1v1 with SW, so she's portraying it as possibly TvT, but in the next post, she's SURE that SW is scum.

This should give every person pause. It's a smoking gun. Town does not think like this. They have no reason to avoid a 1v1 against someone they're convinced is scum. This is an inconsistency that cannot be explained away.

[Rob14]

EBWOP: How convenient. The only people other than SW (who's in the conflict) and me (who, let's be honest, is bordering on unlynchable for the moment based on the amount of people town-reading me)

who are on your wagon

.

I mean, they're also scummy and lurk, plus I see Titus' point in how they are using the blowup to their advantage.

But sure, graze over all that.

PB is scummy and lurky by Titus' own description. ASP is as well. Boon is lurky, but hasn't been scumread by Titus. Why don't they make the list? It's more a matter of who she left off AND who she put on, not just one by itself.

[Rob14]

EBWOP for 727: I swapped the description of the first and second posts, but it should be obvious what I'm saying.

[Rob14]

Why would SW stop? You've been pushing her buttons with posts like 704 so that she won't stop. You're actively setting up the possibility of T v T so that when SW eventually flips, you won't go next.

[Rob14]

704 is absolutely condescending. It's a "ha ha, I know you're scum, you scummy scum" post.

[Rob14]

It's only what they want if they're scum faking emotion, and you know that.

[Rob14]

Show specifically where Vedith and 20 promote you going at it. And if the answer is just "because they're voting you" or some derivative, I'm losing my shit.

[Rob14]

Scum can easily votepark on scum. It's even desirable to defeat VCA. When there's no real danger of a lynch, there's no real negative to doing it. And you know that - it's obvious. Come on, you're better than that.

[Rob14]

Rob, was my unvote requested so you could sort SW and Titus or because you think 20x100 isn't scummy?

It's because the components of 20x100's wagon makes me believe he's not scum. At the same time, Titus has a beacon of scumminess shining bright at the moment. If Titus is scum, 20x100 almost certainly isn't.

Re Vedith's ISO:

48: Completely my thoughts at the time, and on page 2, you can hardly call it "fueling the fire". The debate had barely started at that point.
89: Frankly, I

still

don't get it. You use the term "scum" differently than many other players apparently do, and your blind assertion that your way is "correct" and everyone else's speech

must

match is the cause of legitimate confusion here.
572: Is in response to a direct question and doesn't do anything to ignite the fires. Seriously? Not even close.

Re: 748: You earlier called someone not voting suspicious because it would avoid VCA, which is fair enough. Now you're calling someone scummy for voting a placeholder? What? Nothing else in this ISO is scummy, aside from the Day 1 avoidance nonsense which I called out at the time, but they later contributed substantially, so it's not like they used that to lurk it out.

[Rob14]

To those who doubted my GL town read before, I rest my case.

[Rob14]

Just staying off it because it's too early for a lynch.

FYI directed at Ari, this is a good reason to stay off the wagon, even if you disagree with my reasoning why I don't think that lynch should happen at all today. If nothing else, I think it's clear more info can be gained from today. It's foolish to waste 1.5 weeks + when there's info to be had. If we stall, do whatever, but right now the posting is as fast and high quality as it has been all game. It'd be silly to cut that off as some of the turtles are poking their heads out of their shells.

[Rob14]

They really don't. They did at one point maybe, but not anymore.

[Rob14]

A few opinion s have altered however it's more or less the same. I find most of the posting since I was last involved non progressive and wasteful. Everyone just seems to be posting for the sake of it. Maybe I'm just not feeling this game yet but nothing has struck me as conversational.
I mean, don't even get me started on your terrible comment of Titus confirmed scum if you flip town...

Please comment on the inconsistencies I pointed out in Titus regarding alternating between posting as if SW is 100% scum and painting it as possible town v town/discouraging viewing this as 1v1. Explain how that comes from a town motivation.

[Rob14]

Then why make the post that you know will egg on SW if you still believe it's possible they're town? "A townie just voted to mislynch, you must be pretty happy" is a clear jab and can only be intended to annoy/anger SW. I do not think that action is at all compatible with reasonable doubt that SW is scum.

[Rob14]

1) I think it's incredibly obvious that by that point SW is frustrated with the game/debate in general, not that no-one was pushing you. It doesn't look like faked frustration, although that piece is just my opinion. This view is supported by the fact that SW has continued being agitated even as some momentum has grown against you (well, mostly me becoming increasingly suspicious, but y'know). It reads like "I just want this to be over" rather than "I want people to look at Titus". It's fatigue, the type that sets in when someone drags you through a particularly tedious debate.

2) When you call it a mislynch while talking to SW, that is likely to annoy/anger her. You're a talented player and apparently a lawyer. You know the power of words. Using the word "mislynch" like you did, connecting it with her push, and then stating she should be happy for it is certainly inflammatory. It's borderline taunting from where I'm sitting. I don't buy that you didn't grasp that facet of language given your occupation and extensive experience on this site.

[Rob14]

I don't like the guts case on Titus

Who's making a gut case?

[Rob14]

@Rob13, You're making a burden of proficiency argument. You're supposing, solely because I am a lawyer, that I can emotionally manipulate people. Yet, I play mafia to be a better lawyer because I am terrible with the emotional aspect of things. I have rigid rules and strong viewpoints of right and wrong.

I am much more skilled at logical arguments and facts than I will ever be with an emotional argument.

No, I'm not assuming this merely because you're a lawyer. I'm assuming this because you're a good mafia player with lots of experience and you know SW quite well, things that you've stated yourself.

[Rob14]

SW, Piegyn was scumreading me as town v town, tried to drive the lynch to the two of us. Had some weird scumtell thing I still don't get. Called everyone who refused to vote me awful and terrible.

Read that and say they weren't scumreading me with a straight face.

Those Piegyn hydra quotes sound like the exact tenor of SW. So yes, while I do think SW is scum. In the back of my mind, I know fear if Titus scum drives people to such absurdities. I don't want a 1 v 1 with SW. I want a 20 lynch.

Vedith and 20 meanwhile vote park.

I don't like how you keep insinuating what is happening between us as TvT while at the same time saying you think I'm scum.

It really feels off to me.

And sorry, I got confused and thought Pieguyn was in the Feysal hydra.

I am thinking you're scum but aware of the possibility I am wrong. Acknowledging possibilities isn't weird.

Feysal wasn't a hydra as far as I recall...

Read through Seiko's ISO and tell me that doesn't match your tone.

Again, this is TvT so you are insinuating we are TvT and this is just town on town violence yet you still keep saying I'm scum.

It can't be both. That does not compute.

One has to be wrong. I don't know which.

Then surely that's a null read, not a scum read. That doesn't make sense the way you've pushed SW.

VOTE: PB

My scumread on PB never changed, and I'm not convinced that 20 is scum based on how their wagon formed, some recent posting, etc. That read probably leans closer to town than scum at the moment. This is the best opportunity to keep 20 alive, which I think is desirable. More time will allow me to sort out that alignment, whereas PB is a strong scumread.

[Rob14]

20 still scum bit this is more scum

Can we just stay on the scum we agree on? Thanks.

Why are you pushing a quick lynch with 10 days left?

Scum read intensifying.

[Rob14]

There's absolutely a "rule" that you have to use what time you have to scum-hunt when the discussion hasn't stagnated. Why give up time that you have when there are things to gain? Scum wants to cut off discussion, not town.

Second, how on earth are a lot of town reads on it? I'd like a full read list from you with reasons.

[Rob14]

SW, before I forget, please explain your town reads on Flubber and pista, but not until after Titus does.

[Rob14]

Although Flubber has looked better lately, I'm just not getting how they were looking town when this wagon started. Or are these reads more recent from both of you?

[Rob14]

Titus is looking at the game from two perspectives which is pretty town but her actions still aren't 100% lining up with her thought processes

I can kind of buy the idea of looking at the game from multiple perspectives as town, but speaking with conviction from multiple perspectives is pretty unlikely/contradictory.

[Rob14]

Those are not the only ones I questioned being on the wagon. At the time, Flubber, pista, and PB were all bad wagonees as well. Flubber is apparently not lurking anymore and has looked town recently, but pista has still not done much at all this game and PB is a scum-butt.

[Rob14]

And Boon may be town, but in name only. He's as anti-town as they come. No rationale, no explanation, and I have no respect for his ability to form accurate reads. As others have mentioned this game, town =/= right. I'm more or less ignoring him at this point.

[Rob14]

That's a pretty good post by PB. I have not seen him post like that before but it's very welcome. Shows active scumhunting.

Begrudgingly, since it doesn't fit my current reads, I share SW's thoughts on this. I have an additional question for GL: Why have you asked several people how their opinion of you has changed based on your read of me? Why do you care about their opinion of you?

[Rob14]

Those are extremely safe reads. Hedging on SW and Titus who are likely to 1v1 at some point, town on the likely D1 NK, and moving in the direction of voting the lead wagon.

nope nope nope nope nope

[Rob14]

Why have you asked several people how their opinion of you has changed based on your read of me? Why do you care about their opinion of you?

I know that I am town, so when looking at the reads that someone is making, their read on me is the one where I can best discern whether it's honest assessment of my play or coming from an informed position. I don't really care what their opinion of me is, I care how they arrived at it. I have no problem with Titus scumreading me for the things she called out, as I could follow her thought process, but PB's attack here is simply incorrect, and now I can watch what happens when I point out that he is wrong.

Also, I believe PB is the only person I've asked this question, and I'm asking because his initial scumread of me was due to when I null-read you and asked Titus to consider why pistachi0n was voting you, several hundred posts ago.

You also more-or-less asked titus in 759, or at least that's how I'm reading it.

[Rob14]

Ok, that's plausible, I can see how you could have meant that.

[Rob14]

Am I required to wait for PB to answer when a question displays a fundamental misunderstanding of PB's own comments?

Yes.

[Rob14]

Specifically because the way PB answers gives us information, whereas cutting in for them does not.

[Rob14]

Inconsistencies can develop. Even if you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place, no harm in letting the person asked answer for themselves.

[Rob14]

@whoever asked me a question: - Rob. And I don't believe Titus to be scum.

I'm sure the answer is no, but I feel compelled to ask anyway: Care to provide any valid reasoning whatsoever?

[Rob14]

Might be ok with which wagon - 20? Hell no.

[Rob14]

Go town!

[Rob14]

ETL was scum MVP. She went from about-to-be-lynched scum to so town that she drew a night kill from the serial killer. That's pretty nuts.

I'm really satisfied with my play in my first game back in a long time. I caught PB from the word go, and I rethought my Titus read to realize she wasn't behaving as town would in certain situations. That's kind of a big deal for me, since I've dealt with tunnel vision issues in the past - I sort someone early into the town or scum categories and refuse to rethink my reads because I don't want to be misled by scum. Hopefully this indicates some progress there!

Vedith, on the other hand, totally slipped by me. I'd like to hope I would have caught on to him eventually, but I didn't read closely enough from Day 2 onward to comment on his play. His play Day 1 was solid, and he got to MyLo as an SK - that's not bad at all!