Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Soul2277]

The Oversouo half of this hydra won't be back until Tuesday

[Soul2277]

Made by Overaoul ^

[Soul2277]

Sixty you said you caught piggy with meta. At the same time what is her meta from your point of view since that isn't explained by you at all? Thor I know you've played reverse mafia and do you not see a difference between her more detailed self now and then.

I've already seen piggy link precinct mafia and at the same time her play reminds me of her town self. Lazy is something I've heard her say enough times as town (best example is I don't like reading long posts right now or something similar). That and she posts longer as town (I know she's said the opposite before, but experience shows she does right now).

Thor looks normal.

Cerulean why meta search piggy, but not absta who you're voting right now? Artemis Fowl micro would be a start. It'd also show similar play in just acting. Beyond that they look fine in their sixty questioning along with the current back and forth with thor. They also got the same idea I have on n and I agree with them there. Sixty how do you flip off absta and to piggy like that. You gave multiple reasons on absta so it feels strange to drop off like that in the next post.

Equinox feels weak. Vote absta then go back off quickly without really explaining why (yummy isn't a reason) and the way he's treated just getting her to L-1 combined with that makes it feel worse.

Voided's 60 along with the following post feels like a bigger absta scum read while still calling piggy a good wagon and staying on her without really explaining why she's a better wagon.

Seeing two scum leans pushing absta also makes him feel more likely town so read wise voided/sixty/equinox all have scum leans. Ceru is a weak town read, thor normal, n/absta/piggy town read. Piggy I would still like you to continue on who you think is scum on your wagon (and why at least 1).

Lastly I'll talk with OS later when he finishes V/la more on reads. Don't want to vote until he shows up.

P-edit: Voided can you explain why piggy is scummier then absta (and how she compares to dirty dealing mafia where she was town)?

~Mehdi

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You were already in that game so how did it not affect your read more before it ended. While you couldn't have referred to it saying the wagon is fine when you knew she played similar already feels off. That and signing posts a bit would help me keep track of you two (I'd ask sixty but I doubt they'd want to).

~Mehdi

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Thor opinion on any of my three scum leans (since I really think cerulean's reads and opinions along with changing out weigh this one strange thing). Primarily equinox and voided since you've already mentioned sixty a decent amount.

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

~Mehdi (and ceru signing is never too tough and makes later re-reads so much easier to skim through)

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Equi voting piggy to L-1 with minimal explanation or force. That clear enough?

~Mehdi

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How specific does he need to be? (little reaching and like it) Although next same question applies to ceru I asked thor (opinion on voided and equinox more).

~Mehdi

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So identical scum reads and the main reason I think voided is scum isn't worth mentioning? And similar to thor can you be more specific on equinox?

~Mehdi

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I think you and voided are scum. You're both pushing absta. That makes him feel more likely town (and it's secondary reason for absta town). Read that game I mentioned since you're voting him and it'd give a better idea on his town play?

And ceru os is v/la so what does that actually mean? I won't vote til he shows up since I want to hear from him first. Best I can say there is scum reads go voided > sixty > equinox.

~Mehdi

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Meta. Meta explains absta so well (specifically while hard to describe it's his act play style where he just acts and plays). Artemis fowl being the example given (while it has 25 pages isoing him gives an idea of style and he mostly posts short).

Me and OS are both male even though I'm like anime.

And unless I'm seeing the wrong 60 that post focuses on absta not piggy.

P-edit: It's a secondary reason for absta. Do you think both scum bussing is likely in a white flag set up (well with the extra black rules).

~Mehdi

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Ceru do you want to try explaining to equi why it's unlikely then? Since somehow two scum are unlikely to bus in white flag isn't clear enough and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

~Mehdi

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Did you and your partner both ever bus together in a white flag game early on?

~Mehdi

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Well it was worth something. Responses and asking to that felt genuine so currently a weak town read.

~Mehdi

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Do you he'd bother faking not understanding scum leans attacking absta --> absta more likely town or he wouldn't know it as scum in this game right now (I'm thinking scum would have talked about bussing and such in their qt)?

~Mehdi

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I'm saying his way of responding to me on absta feels town and basically asking what you think there.

~Mehdi

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Equi voting piggy to L-1 with minimal explanation or force. That clear enough?

~Mehdi

Except for it being a scumtell - yes.

Not sure whether this is asking how is that a scum tell or you seeing it's a scum tell. If the second I thought he was scum until his response to the two bussing felt genuine and changed my read. If the first did you not see how helping a mislynch (since I have piggy as a town read) happen is scummy? And how continuing to joke a decent amount when getting to the point of near lynching someone isn't good either? Although meh it's now irrelevant to me.

Voided I've been calling absta town. He's a town read not a scum read.

And voided quote yourself then with what you said toward piggy and what you said toward absta (before I made that post). The main point isn't that you haven't talked about both is that the amount of talking you've done on absta felt higher then how much you talked on piggy before yet you kept your vote on piggy.

~Mehdi

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I've played with town voided once in dirty dealing and read his play in Reverse Mafia Rudex. Specific difference wise I don't see one although meta while he's commented on piggy his experience of her to be affecting his read more (specifically she faked a pr as town). OS actually knows his scum meta well and I can wait til Tuesday vs reading his scum games fully.

[Soul2277]

That is the point on absta. Do I have to explain how similar play in two games with one being town and then attacking him for an aspect in a previous town game is bad? Honestly haven't read or experienced his scum play but when the argument is on something he's done as town and that the way he did this game to get a town read quickly look town I'll think of him as town.

Anyway continuing what is you current read on both right now. Not how much you've talked exactly, but just what is it. Response to sentence 2 (or 3) of my last post would also be nice even though it wasn't directed at you.

~Mehdi

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Thor no response to 146? It was you who asked to hear on that so I think the answer would matter to you.

~Mehdi

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You answer was functionally 'barely know what I'm talking about and am outsourcing to OS' so I was waiting for him as I thought you asked me to.

Well returning that do you think meta is needed for all reads? And how is two town games of him 0 knowledge of him (absta's meta is from a single town game while piggy is from two town and one scum so neither is much different).

P-edit: jesse I think ceru already explained her feelings on thor. And why wait to out reads? Reads are malleable and trying to hide them is never useful (especially in a nightless game).

That and what does noting this mean? Noting it as a town tell, scum tell, future associative tell, what? Being that vague doesn't say a thing there.

[Soul2277]

You're asking someone to have done something. I think they already have. Purpose being unless you think they didn't already answer it?

Noting sounds like it's worth remembering. So what's interesting about it.

Waiting to give reads is an excuse to not deal with early read construction. Is there a bad thing to outing reads (they can be changed)? Can you not see a benefit to outing reads and then discussing them more in detail?

~Mehdi

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Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

I think that answers her own question fine.

And you haven't answered at all why you can't out reads now and then change them as new info flows to you. Sure you're opinion changed of me but what was it before and after. Hiding reads because they're going to change is a stupid reason.

[Soul2277]

^~Mehdi

~Mehdi

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Thor you should know a difference between 0 knowledge and solid knowledge. The point is you specified a difference on what I said meta wise on voided vs piggy/absta who had the same amount of meta (absta less).

~Mehdi

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Except I didn't.

And some knowledge is no knowledge with meta - you either have knowledge you will claim awareness of or you don't. You are citing him as scummy for things I have seen him do as town and wanted to see how you defended it - and you backed off. I don't see why that matters with your Absta and Piggy commentary.

I just disagree then for the first line. End part is relevant just because it felt like you were focusing on the amount of knowledge I have with voided when it was similar to the amount I had on the other two.

@Ceru yes equinox.

@Jesse I misread it although I do think you're reaching on ceru and equinox there. Don't think it's bad to answer someone else's question if you think they're leaning town or are a town read.

~Mehdi

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just came out of a

rational

mafiascum player's mouth. Give me some good reasoning behind that or I'm just going to assume you're not.

You arguing with someone I think is town is likely for you to suspect them unless you change your mind. I'll want you to change your mind since lynching a town read I don't want.

Anyways I've argued near identical things before:

I think he's town. I'm going to defend him.

That's one quick example.

@Thor specify where you said why you brought it up only on him. I do want to know have you ever played with town piggy or town absta (if no then I think I understand). My focus was just understanding why you asked on voided (os dealing with his meta still being what will be done later).

~Mehdi

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The logic behind the two for doing so is the same (and while different can you not see how the reasoning can apply to both). I can quote something that says I think answering questions is fine (I'd rather not dig through games to find that specific point). Anyways it's primarily when the question felt useless when I read it.

Jesse what do you think of people you haven't interacted with much yet?

~Mehdi

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Oh and N where exactly are you (along with opinions on the current game state)? You post nicely at the start and then disappear quickly when I know you've been online after that.

~Mehdi

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Run that last part by us again.

By the by, please stop disgracing metamancy as a science with posts like 182.

He's being called scummy for the way he intentionally just tried to do something and get reads. It reminds of me of his town play in artemis fowl where he tended to change reads a lot and the same tone and post style (particularly concise posting) which again I can best describe as just acting.

And sure if I'm disgracing metamancy why don't you wow me with your meta powers and bother to explain piggy's meta more. Explaining it in rudex mafia is nice, but we're not playing that game and this is a different set of piggy posts.

Sixty you also seem to agree absta is clueless (which since it got him a read is debatable), but if you can see him as clueless and he's already explained clueless --> town do you want him to repeat himself?

Piggy a. I'm not voting anyone til OS appears, and b. I don't suspect jesse. I don't think having fairly contrary reads, actually pushing them, and having an interesting path of logic with that question to ceru are scummy.

I will say the most interesting bit of association is the number of people who can just ignore sixty without being pushed to comment on them.

~Mehdi

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Sixty does that mean the other head is the meta using head. Saying I don't like to use and at the same time have used meta before doesn't work. Meh, VOTE: Sixty. OS can argue with me later if he doesn't agree.

Jesse you make logic sound town. It's fairly easy to fake and that's what a lot of what sixty says is. Simple logic without bothering to take in player factors and a tendency to assume vs question and decide for a scum read. Weak, but I'm kind of missing the usual bit of set up spec I'd expect both to be able to give (weak because how this set up isn't that special but still noticeable).

Next you do know who thor is right? I called thor normal for a reason. He's a player most are paranoid for so treating it like it's a big deal is exaggerating quite a bit (or you've never played with the mastermind named thor).

~Mehdi

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Here voided:

Specific difference wise I don't see one although meta while he's commented on piggy his experience of her to be affecting his read more (specifically she faked a pr as town)

connected to this:

I guess I can take a gander during my break in college tomorrow, though.

So what do you results show (that and I do think the main point being her willingness to fake a pr kind of shows she acts uniquely)?

As for responding to that I did. If you're expecting a complex response it doesn't really exist. It's mainly similar tone and play style (which remains best description is just act) along with how he used it to get a town read.

~Mehdi

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First part in 224 has the same reply you gave the second part.

And can you be more specific on opinion towards sixty's case? That's the main point of debate on them.

~Mehdi

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Oh, sorry. Thought that was referring to your Absta meta-read, not Piggy.

Sorry for lack of clarity (since that's not what I meant). I meant I agree to disagree on piggy.

I also think ceru called sixty buddying jesse not me.

Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).

~Mehdi

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Can we just stop this insult argument? Sixty's post last page should be enough to end it.

And sixty I didn't say you haven't responded to it. I was asking voided what he thought of the actual response.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).

Oh

do tell

. Go on. See what we did, and what we got, and show us the wonderful secrets we've been hiding. Preferably without lying.

I believe I already responded to this.

Oh you

Though, question, and I apologize ahead of time. But have we ever played a game together?

Are we sharing names of alts, or not so much?

Stalker power. I've read some of your games where you were an IC, later part of Experimental role mafia and political something mafia. Reverse mafia already mentioned, a micro where you hydra'd with majiffy and likely some others I don't remember.

"Soul: Can you give an updated reads list?"

Town: Piggy = Absta > Ceru > Jesse > Equinox
Neutral: Thor (honestly town lean but I just feel paranoid on him until later game) and N
Scum: Sixty > Voided

OS should be done with v/la now so he should be talking to more later though read wise.

While I accept the voided wagon I still would rather have the sixty one. Summarizing tammy:

Piggy. Piggy interactions. Continuing from a case that feels misdirected at best and scum at worst after being attacked they've focused primarily on just defending when both can be done. They've clarified parts of the argument on piggy, but have they really continued to push their big scum read? The answer is no.

~Mehdi

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Sixty you're really barking the wrong place. Let's quote where I responded to that (since I basically got asked the same thing twice). Arguing something that's fairly objective and easy to show wrong. Skimming too much?

Soul2277 229 wrote:
Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).
We answered this already:

And sixty I didn't say you haven't responded to it. I was asking voided what he thought of the actual response.

Soul - People making cases in good faith don't normally ignore the truth when it compromises their comfortable reality.

Soul 229 wrote:
Lastly other main point on sixty is do you follow their reason for voting absta (which they said didn't really reveal much reaction wise and I'd expect more there).
Oh do tell. Go on. See what we did, and what we got, and show us the wonderful secrets we've been hiding. Preferably without lying.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Except that's not what that comment was for. Anyways you voted absta and responded with this later:

"1) A chance to look active and push a counterwagon for <reason to be read into>.
2) Answering your question as posed, sheer probability suggests itself. Disregarding what specifically you asked, we wanted to see who would jump and why, not specifically drain votes from PiggyGal."

Response for 3 was:

"3) The mod PMd us with a Guilty, but we might be Insane, so etc. Looking at the thread, it more or less didn't get acknowledged - Thor didn't say a word, Voidedmafia and PiggyGal mentioned absta but didn't do anything, Cerulean didn't try to tubthump on the wagon, thus frankly as far as reactions go nothing happened."

Focusing on the end part you're result was just lack of reaction and stopped there. If you're going to push another wagon to see responses and then not analyze the meaning of lack of response (or just say what that actually meant for him) then yes it looks fake.

~Mehdi

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Multiple people mention him as scummy but not enough to swap over and only really do so when piggy is out. Conclusion -> Trusted more then piggy, but at the same time the general paranoia is a weak town tell considering I'd think someone would defend him more earlier if he was scum.

That's one conclusion. You can reason out others, but point is lack of really analyzing something you were checking yourself is scummy. I think you're a good enough player to be able to take lack of much reactions and still draw some opinions from it.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

So did repeating the quote in your own words affect your opinion on sixty? It kind of shows that you can definitely analyze lack of response so the idea that you can't really do anything doesn't work at all.

Guessing the two players are tierce and vi.

~Mehdi

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Remember the original argument. Sixty voted absta to see what'd happen partly. They saw little response. They got a response, but didn't analyze and asked me to draw some conclusion from it. I did. Kind of shows drawing conclusions from it are possible and for them not to do so is scummy.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

;_; twelve pages
mehdi did you change the background to Sepia?

I'm going to alt slip a lot more now >_>

[Soul2277]

^ OS
~ OS

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be reading the thread over the day

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Sixty you wanted a conclusion. That's one. Others again exist. Point is you can analyze lack of reactions fine. It's honestly more of a scum tell similar to early lack of commentary on you without forcing it in you're direction, but overall read still makes him town.

~Mehdi

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And piggy can you be more specific as well? I know voided walls as both alignments so a bit more detail on what in his walls leans town.

~Mehdi

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Why meta talk aside? If you think meta reasons given are bad then why not give meta reasons on how it's wrong (or reasons on why a meta read isn't good for ceru).

~Mehdi

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mehdi to the doc

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I should make an alt account as ZombiePiggy, and then finally,

finally

people might stop wanting to eat me

Did you see that v/la post? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

On my read through (page 1 don't hate me) this immediately stuck out to me...

Notice the similarities?

Ya. I'm investigating this further.

~ OS

[Soul2277]

My Internet keeps dropping making it incredibly difficult to read the thread let alone post and link/quote stuff.

I'll post it tomorrow during the day because this is getting ridiculous.

~ OS

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You literally mention Voided once

What the fuck was that hammer.

[Soul2277]

As a person who walls. I find myself completely unwilling to read any of them. Like in reading a text book.

In other news, I broke my toe!

Still not done with my reread and I am going out in 10 minutes. I really am sorry I'm not giving this game te proper attention it deserves. >_> thank god I hydrad (<3 mehdi)
But seriously, I don't think I've ever seen Tierce or Vi do something like that before let alone TOGETHER

[Soul2277]

Empire if you have ever played with Tiere or Vi you would have the same exact reaction

They do not play like that

[Soul2277]

That was Tammy.

Is this Oversoul? What are your thoughts on sixty?

I think they are scum.

I have not seen Tierce or Vi ever just come out of left field and hammer someone who isn't here or who they have not been recently engaging and I highly doubt one would Do that without the consent of the other making the hammer itself that much more peculiar.

Especially given the context that Empire just post a huge ass wall addressed specifically to them that they willfully ignored in lieu of the hammer.

[Soul2277]

Talk to y'all tomorrow

[Soul2277]

Reg explain the meta more. I'm fairly sure I fence sit more as scum then town so saying the opposite doesn't work well (that and I see a bigger easier difference to spot between my current play and other town play so it's strange you're missing it in your meta reading). Along with why only skim my scum games (or only mention them)? The entire meta thing on me is really weak.

Sheep ceru more on sixty same there like usual. And how were they not obv town before then? I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game but similar to tammy's early piggy thing you could have pushed them as town more without mentioning that (and with one of you being mod of the game means the reason I didn't know their alignment til game end doesn't work since Vi could just push ceru as obv town more when talking to tierce). Kind of even goes against the past piggy read. Really though our arguments are mostly circular at this point. Plus acting like voided's flip isn't obvious based on his reaction to being hammered.

Piggy depends on OS spending time explaining his scum read on her when his internet likes him more.

~Mehdi

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I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game

This applies both to here and in the hydra itself. Considering piggy's essentially had a town case given for her in thread vi writing one without ever mentioning or hinting the other game is perfectly doable with 0 comprising of a game.

~Mehdi

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Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

[Soul2277]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

FUCK YOU

Those were the very words that came out of YOUR fuckimg hydra mouth. You were having a "convo" with reg saying that Sixty and I were cross bussing.

Do you want me to quote it? Stop trying to slander our name when it was you who fucking said it.

[Soul2277]

Faraday seriously you are pissing me off. You are reaching MoI levels of antagonization ad quite frankly I've had enough of that to last me for a lifetime.

I haven't read the thread completely so even if I did present reads I am sure you'd fucking twist it an spin them to fit your own needs. I had already planned on leaving BEFORE you even responded so don't give me that crap that I am leaving when you asked me for reads. I'm not fake raging this is legitimate anger. I don't expect this from you or Regfan. Yes Mehdi voted but that doesn't mean I had no involvement. It's a fucking hydra. He asked me if it was okay to vote Sixty and I said yes. Do you want me to show you our hydra logs because I will do if it will stop you from acting all high and mighty like this.

Honestly this scenario is almost exactly like god damn dirty dealing where MoI was so convinced we were scum because we had a differing read on him.

If you really want a read from me Farday it's that I think you are scum if Sixty is scum. You are twisting my words in a way that I have never seen from your town play and you are being an asshole about on top of it. Your words about us being scum belies that you somehow "know" for a fact that Sixty is scum. You are tryin to fucking tie us to a sinking ship hence all of your twisting of words.

Let me ask you this question, what is your opinion of Sixty if Voided flips mafia?

Now fuck off and I'll be back later.

[Soul2277]

I skimmed them because I had a horrible headache and a lack of real time to sit in and do the reading and stated I was planning on reading them in much greater detail later (Probably sometime in the next few hours) but I said all that in Post 402 so this just comes across as you attempting to chip away de-crediting us by saying 'the meta is weak!' when I haven't even had a chance to go through it properly. And mentioning the links were so Empire could have a chance to read them too so we could actually talk about it properly rather than with less than full information.

It is weak. There's a difference between a small bit of good content and a small bit of just bad content. I still do want clarification on how I assert more as scum (last I checked I had 0 scum reads except for bussing until lylo in one of my scum games, was scum for two days in another and didn't really convince anyone and just played weak, and then open 443 which is the only one I could see I asserted somewhat even though I still got lynched day 1).

@Sixty in reference to how ceru suspected piggy but then when a game ended tammy was in read changed (and that unlike her not knowing alignment doesn't fit as a reason to push it). I just disagree with the remainder. If you have a town read it should be clearly stated and agreed upon.

JT, I'll let OS fight his war (you're honestly both being stubborn on something minor right now and are just distracting). I will say reads wise I gave them pretty clearly a while ago and only one that's split (and remains so until we're both online at the same time) is piggy.

Thor reasoning behind the vote? In your words I don't grok it.

Ceru either have tammy explain her read on me or you do for her.

As for sixty past applies. VOTE: Sixty

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I think fighting over semantics is you two being pretty stubborn (the root cause of this argument) nor was the yelling match worth much (especially when outside of that OS agreed with me on your slot). Already said I'll let OS deal with actual war on you (partly because I haven't talked to him since yesterday). If you want to ask a question that relies on that ask me after he shows up again or just to him. That and comment to my response on the meta would be nice.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

So is there a way for me to tell which of you is which (either sign or just some easy post style difference)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Depends on the post. 503 felt more like reg and clearing that up helps a bit.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You said I'm more assertive as scum. I said I think it's the exact opposite. My argument is the meta given so far is bad when it's that different from the meta I understand myself to have (I'm not arguing lack of meta reasoning I'm arguing how I think reasoning given so far is wrong).

And there's a small difference in OS starting to argue over semantics and arguing over an fos on me because of meta.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Do you think sixty would give obvious clues to their buddies after being suspected this much?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You can thor. I just don't find it a reason to sheep you here especially when compared to sixty.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Yes I care about people's reads on me. I know this point propped up in an earlier finished game of mine (can't remember which nor do I care to search for it right now).

Thor I agree with your second n quote of it being scummy although not for the 1st. Sixty just out weighs n scum wise. Jesse same thing pretty much applies to you're read on n. It goes back to how is sixty less scummy then n?

Tammy most of the rest of your paragraph on me dealt with os so same as jt he can answer it later.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Which of the two possibilities do you think is more likely?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Ok. Let me preface this by explaining my feelings when I am town.

When I play town I play a game of cat and mouse with the rest of the other people. I purposefully withhold information in order to analyze reactions from certain players. I purposefully do crazy shit sometimes in order to watch other people and see how they react. However, once I have gotten to the point where I think I have sufficiently displayed myself as town and people have stated confidence in a townread on me when others do not call me town it is offensive. It is offensive because I have worked to make it clear to everyone that I am town. It is offensive against me as a player because it makes me feel as if I have failed and quite simply I will dislike you for it. I could have done the most townie shit in the world and yet there will be people who have reservations about my town play and I approach the point of hating them for not calling me town. When I lash out and use harsh invectives against you it is because I am feeling animosity toward and also self pity for myself, but mostly stupidity on your part and your failure to acknowledge the obvious. When people pester and say things that incriminate me because that is their opinion of the texts, it pisses me off. When I try to explain to them why they are wrong and they still fall back on their own opinion it enrages me. I hate being wrong but if there is anything more in the world that I hate it is being mislynched and called scum when I am town.

As scum I acknowledge that you are right and will be less forceful in my anger towards you but when I am town yo ubetter hope you fucking lock your doors at night or you don't play a game with me immediately after you mislynch me because I WILL hold it agianst you. As scum I accept that I have acted scummy and that I have not played to the best of my ability and will not hold it against you and will not hate you for yoru actions because I know you are right and only doing what I would do if our spots were switched. As town however I will do whatever is possibly in my power via either belligerence, or anger, or contempt in order to convey my feelings toward you. Basically it is a pride thing and unfortunately I am a very proud person.

So this is an apology to everyone I have been an ass to, to everyone I have wished very hateful and mean things but that is the truth and hopefully now you will know where I come from.

I have spoilered the ketchup post for the sake of not making this page unbearable but I am genuinely asking everyoen to please look through it andcomment on it. I worked to fucking post that thing and when people fucking ignore me or my comments it only makes me feel like they are ignoring it because they are scum or think that I am scum.

Spoiler: Wall that probably only Reg and Empire will read

I'm a stalker N

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

So conflicted about this post... the jumpiness looks scummy but when I look at her motivation it appears genuine. Nonetheless, Piggy, have you always hated RVS?

22 and 24 I like N's suspicions of Piggy and his questions. However one thing to ask is - why would it matter if the games Piggy stalked micros/newbies? Or am I misunderstanding that statement you made?

Unvote, Vote: absta101

VOTE: Equinox
I'll support this for now.

uo.ou

Vote: PiggyGal15

(L-2)

We can count three different reasons to sniff this way.

Well, four.

All of these posts suck and I can already see the headache and frustration in trying to determine Sixty's alignment. *sigh*

Equinox do you normally bandwagon like this? Without much reasoning other than "just cause". CES level of wagoning.

32 Not gonna lie that made me laugh.

^^^
That.

Why unvote?

I got a town read from his OMGUS vote.

Why was it scummy for me to unvote?

How?

All in all page 2 made me want to kill myself with the amount of content it didn't have.

Thor's posts are making me feel better about him. I need to read Zach's insane world again since I was so, so wrong about him that game.

I believe I would've voted absta if I were you. The reason being I didn't comment on anything, I just voted.

What was your townread on Piggy at this point?

So you're going to consciously do something scummy and say "oh well done you get a Town read" when you're called on it?

How is that any different from you did?

57 So you're the meta king that Mehdi was talking about... Do you have any scum games completed on this site that I could read?

I don't think we have ever had the pleasure of playing together.

No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt.

I liked your case except for this point. This line is reaching if I've ever seen it. Where do you get the opinion that any of her "I love my wagon posts" were work? And you say that she is disinterested in the wagon, yet goes on to explain reasoning for some of the people game?

You're scummy because I hate dogs o.O

Thor i think that avatar bit in that MD thread may actually be true.

(never changing oversoul's avatar. ever. lol)

Thor, what is your opinion of Cerulean's post 82? More specifically their comments towards you.

Tammy/Empire, what do you have to say about "Piggy awkwardly starting her towngames" after I showed you Futurama Mafia where she basically did the same exact thing in her first post. I can link to other games where she does not awkwardly start her town games as well.

I have a follow up question to this, so don't let me forget.

Also, random bit about that hydra in general. Empire, are you going to UM for Law School? I live close to Miami. Tammy, I have the perfect name for our to be created hydra.

Thor and Cerulean interaction reads fairly genuine although I really do not like the snark from Thor. His earlier posts and inquisitions of the other players in the game had me thinking his town, but I generally find the snarkiness to be antitown. He still answered Cerulean in full so I guess it is just a personality thing.

Piggy, be completely honest, why did you start *this* game like you did?
Do you find replacing into a game to still "count" for you? I'm not elaborating on this second question.

This is probably going to require some serious meta research of Piggy.

Hey Thor! Hi! How ya doin? When you get done licking your little boy wounds, us grown ups are going to actually be looking for scum. Care to join us?

Ya. This snark can go away too.

I cant wait for Tuesday when Oversoul starts posting so I can get a clearer read of that slot, btw.

Why? Tammy I don't think we've played a game together other than maybe Good vs. Evil and Team Mafia unless I am forgetting games. Why do you think you have such an accurate take on my meta?

...and there's absta101 who Soul2277 says has acted weird before as town or something. Regardless, I'll park my vote here because, well, I don't like him. Despite showing little reservation voting me at the start, he's hesitated at voting for Voidedmafia, on whom he's claimed he's "leaning scum."

While I am suspicious of Equinox for her posts in the beginning of the game this is a good point about absta.

Noting this post.

Voided looks similar in his pushes from DDR and it isn't clouded by the catchup post. Although the general bitchiness present in the game at this point is leaking into a lot of player's posts. Can we all take a breather?

Equinox says that she has to verify things a lot. Note this for future to see if she has verified what she said would.

We were voting absta101 to see who would switch wagons if we did that. There were several voices raised against absta101 yet no votes going ----> that way, so we were checking who felt happy jumping off Piggy and onto someone else who was gathering suspicion. Not much came of it.

So what does that explain about the people on Piggy's wagon?

So I'm a lesser town read than N because, even though I'm doing more townish things I concern you more?

Do you have any other feelings about this general reasoning?

Hurm. Looking over stuff Cerulean is actually obv. town unless Piggy is scum.
Cerulean can still answer my questions though because the slot strikes me as pedantic and it will amuse me.

Unvote: Cerulean
Vote: Voided

Let's do a Piggy counter wagon for lulz.

It took you three minutes to go from "I'll give you a case about Ceru.let me finish probing them, sixty" to "they are obvtown?

Filler from Voided While this is what I would expect from Voided scum, his tone in the point that Mehdi brought up feels as if it is town. I need to look into Dirty Dealing to see if he did this style after we started applying pressure to him.

So many posts!

Mehdi is a town read.

I'm not confident in my Voided read at all. I've been so wrong about him before.

Note.

What happened to that "Oh, dear, I may be wrong on him" attitude?

(also, 5th ISO? So you're just responding to me, is that it?)

This

But I know I'm town, yet don't know if you and/or Equi are town. Therefore, if Equi is called scummy for something you also did (or didn't) do, why should I not call you scummy for it, too?

and this display Voided's attitude towards absta. It looks like anger, but the rhetorical nature of it all looks contrived and designed to fling mud onto absta.

I think I've found my twin I really like Jesse's post. His question to Voided is exactly the reaction I had since I thought it was fairly obvious why absta posted that post. I like his push and suspicion of Piggy since he isn't letting go of her awkward opening. I like his suspicion of Equinox and the fact that he quotes a post of hers for reference later. The only thing I don't completely like is the fact that he says he is waiting on a page or two. I do do this a lot because I like to wait and see reactions for certain things but I try not to post what I am doing because that will ruin the spontaneity and the truthfulness of those reactions because now people know someone is waiting for them to say something and may adjust their reaction accordingly. However the motivation is there, just not the execution.

P-edit: jesse I think ceru already explained her feelings on thor. And why wait to out reads? Reads are malleable and trying to hide them is never useful (especially in a nightless game).

That and what does noting this mean? Noting it as a town tell, scum tell, future associative tell, what? Being that vague doesn't say a thing there.

No no... wasn't asking you. I think its great that you're attempting to answer questions specifically asked to other people but I mean usually there's a reason they're directed at someone else. I also wasn't aware that stating you're going to post reads (which could be referred back to if I didn't hold up that end of the bargain) was hiding them.

And noting provides an easy potential reference point later in the game.

No need to be an ass to him about it.

So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?

This reaction is completely unwarranted.

You called for him to post in the game. What do you expect him to post? If he is doing it a reread of the game up to that point, information is already going to be available to him and he is going to end up talking about stuff that has already happened.

I am interested to know what Tammy thinks of this Piggy post as well.

And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

What do you mean? They were rather catty to each other earlier in the game.

Thor: Alright. RVS meta on you tucked away. I completely disagree but every player is touchy about their RVS theories so that's fine. It seems to me that absta is playing this game with a Mafiascum Theory 101 logic. i.e. "OMGUS vote? Okay you're town." Answering someone's question, then immediately following with a reactionary question that may or may not really do all that much in terms of scumhunting, it just seems like the appropriate thing to say like,

Is this the first game you've played in a while? I don't think that is general MS theory at all.

Also, about absta, do you think it is willful cluelessness or actual "I don't fucking know"?

The reaction to Mehdi in this post explains the bitchiness that I quoted earlier and really goes to show the motivation of Jesse in my opinion.

I feel like when you first used the word clueless you meant "not knowing how to play the game"
Now you are clearly stating "not knowing people's alignments"

Which did you mean, and go back to 167 and walk me through that last bit again to make sure I grok it?

Weren't you the one criticizing Sixty about not understanding a point you were trying to make about Cerulean? This is pretty hypocritical in my mind since Jesse states explicitly "cluesless about everybody".

Hence the question. How can you turn absta’s misstep into the game a Town-tell? Right now you’re saying “he’s playing like absta”. Which, well, I guess that’s better than what people say about either of us most games, but etc..

Unless I am misunderstanding something....

you won't explain the meta behind your reads for the sake of future games (i.e. people will change their meta), you won't explain meta this way but you say that you have seen this before in Piggy, but you want Mehdi to explain meta why he thinks absta is town...?

On the other hand we have JesseShef throwing himself in front of absta for reasons we’ll surely understand eventually.

What exactly are you getting at here?

Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.

I mean she's Misty to Empire's Starmie but QFT.

And a lot of it has to do with their interaction with Thor. Thor’s been the most vocal, on point focused player contributing the most scumhunting across a broad range of players.

Why do you say this? You're going to have to explain because while I find some of his posts to have town intent there are some that I have no idea why he would ask this and the hypocrisy that I pointed out earlier makes me question my read on him. Caveat, do you find Thor to be the most town at this point in the game?

206 and 207 I really like

Looking at Voided I am having trouble determining his alignment. I guess it was easier in Dirty Dealing because he was actually willing to go toe to toe with me and my cases against him which I find scum generally do not want to do (although some specific players will). It really kinda sucks I was inactive and unable to poke at him when he was posting this. I am with him about Thor because I find Thor's play deteroirating as the game goes on. Him not explaining Jesse's question about asking about the fluff post isn't what I had in mind from a town voided, and the preemptive yes this is fluff post because Voided had no trouble posting that in Dirty Dealing despite my problems with it that I immediately made a comment on. :\

I wasn't gonna go all-out analysis mode, no, but I did give some pretty concise thoughts on the points I focused on. Saying more than I did felt like it'd be too wordy and fluffy.

You're okay with still posting the fluff that you labeled as such though?

A little tired from reading everything since stuff is just getting rehashed. I am little surprised that Tammy didn't think Jesse was town but then again I remember her not reading me well I think from GvE and I would say our town play is pretty similar especially from that first post.

Not counting at least one ongoing - to the best of my awareness: no.

Whydidn't you asnwer the first part of the post?

Whoops, wrong. If you’d looked a little deeper you’d have realized I’ve never played with Thor on this account which means I played him on an alt. I’ve got three other alts and I’ve been here since 2008 sooo... that just got awkward.

lol'd.

Although this does explain his weird MS 101 comment earlier that I didn't like. Then again, I'm not familiar with that "logic 101" that he was referring to.

And how come you're not actually reading people's alignments.

How do you get that from Jesse's posts?

So until you get your act together, you aren't getting any cooperation from me. Because THAT would be anti-town play on my part.

Are you saying it is anti-town not to cooperate or anti-town to cooperate with someone who you think is scum? Or something else entirely?

This is such a cop out. You're saying me wagonning in RVS is a town-tell and when I press for more info on where you got that idea from, you say ongoing games? How can something you've picked up from my ongoing games be a town-tell? You don't know my alignment in those games and if I try and press you too hard you can just avoid talking about ongoing games.

This made me reconsider a lot of things. I've definitely been in the place that Piggy is where I think I know someone's alignment based on an ongoing game. Tierce and Faraday can back me up on that. They were the victims of my weakness when it comes to that which makes me reconsider my opinion about Piggy and the things she's saying. However I definitely agree with N here because I do find that to be a cop out as he explained.

I know this townread is "gone" now because I disappeared, but it was a pretty shit reason for a townread anyway. I was pretty much talking to her about my own meta; that's a towntell now is it? (This isn't just for Cerulean; I saw other people say similar things.)

What?

I am pretty sure Cerulean said you were town for the motivation of your questioning to Piggy.

What do you say about that now that I've explained that. I have another question to add.

Derp I just remembered I forgot what other question I was going to ask someone else and forgot to put it in the doc. God damn it. >_>

I kinda was - it was very derpy of you. Though mostly because somehow N was more towny than me.

Do you find that Sixty's disappointment in the town for not finding them is town is warranted?

I didn't realize that being offended at not being called town was such a prevailing emotion. I thought I was alone on that.

Remind me how this is scummy.

Living up to expectations. You didn't there. At least to me and probably to voided.
I liked your point about voided in the beginning of this post though.

@Jesse - Wtf is your problem? Stop defaming me.

The fuck? Not really seeing the point to this comment. I can understand if you are offended that he posted that you don't know how to scumhunt or where to begin, but then, why no follow up?

"Why me!?"

I don't think that is what Voided was getting at with that comment.

And considering these are supposedly Cerulean’s biggest scumspects, they sure do a lot of unnecessary fighting with players they supposedly have a town read on

That isn't necessarily true for what it is worth. I have suspects but that doesn't mean I have a townread on everyone else just because my biggest suspects are still alive.

By the way, I thought Cerulean had given their reason why they didn't like the case on Sixty and it was pretty clear.

245 The short responses between absta and voided is getting tedious as fuck to read since they don't really seem to have much effort into each other just a bone to pick with one another. *sigh* This game is getting highly annoying to read.

@Jesse - You should vote him then - then someone will be getting somewhere.

What was this answering?

The truth is, at this point this puppyhalf wants to kill literally half the game. Indiscriminately. Devil take them all. And after said puppyhalf calms down a little, said puppyhalf still wants to fire blindly into the crowd of {Cerulean, absta, JesseShef, Soul, PiggyGal}

are these the people that you still want the devil to take or are these the people after the devil has taken others?

That was a pretty loaded comment. Im really kinda glad I missed the animosity bug that seems to be biting everyone.

And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.

Of the five, Soul frankly smurfs this puppyhalf off most.

Why? You just said that the weak attempts were why you suspect us... when your vote is the epitome of weak.

1) You're assuming that I am a skilled player (I'm not).

Forgive me if I don't belive this due to psychological related reasons and the fact that normally other people judge whether or not someone is a good player. But that was bitchy and snipey ofme.

Its just like well... other than the obvious reason than try to convince someone you're not scum I don't know if its something a town player would bring up,

oh lol this is something I do all the time >_>b

In other news - Ceru is town anyway, meta be damned, so...?

Other than Cerulean being "obv. town", which as you know is always such a... convincing... rationale, I'd love to see where you explained some rational reasons as to why Cerulean is town. And with all meta talk aside please. Its getting pretty old.

I'd like to see this answered as well.

306 too long to quote (i'm not THAT mean)
tammy's comments about her playstyle remind me of my own and my own opinions about my own
the justification and explanation appears genuine to me and I can follow the train of thought fairly easily

Sorry, you're going to have to deal with Faradays trolling a little longer.

I'm about half way through page 10 and the read through is actually taking quite a bit longer then I anticipated it to.

try actually responding to it
;_;

I really do feel that if you can't say why someone is scum in under 2 sentences than they're probably not scum.
You've been providing examples of evidence to support your case.
I don't think you've actually written out the case.
Think thesis statement.

err...

I need to look something about this

Thor have there been any scumgames recently where you've been pressured in?

Regfan, re: your massive reads list, I agree with Jesse, Cerulean, N, but I have problems with absta and Thor and Piggy.

I think I might be on to something with regards to getting a definite alignment read of Piggy, but I am not sure.

Regards to absta read - playing devils advocate, why do you think that would be a towntell? While I agree I've been burned by too many people doing scummy shit and then me writing them off because it made no sense for scum to do.
Regards to Thor, I had a stronger townlean on him in the beginning of the game when he was poking at other people but as the game progressed his actions and tone grew more bitter than what I normally see. I think there also might be something there akin to the piggy read, but I have to look it up first to make sense of anything.

Also in your experience regfan, has empire's meta related reads normally been wrong? from that one post he referred to in catching venmar it seems no, but you have more familiarity with him.

If you find Cerulean to be your biggest townread, why would you vote with Voided mafia over sixty? This really isn't a big issue but I want to frame your mindset at the time

332 - I am in agreement with Voided's 2nd and 3rd points.

And since I've seen Voided's flip it is coloring my view of things. I amtoo slow and this ame is too fast for me

And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.

Yeah honestly their attempt at bussing you is actually really garbage and they voted you for a bad reason.

of course i'm a funny troll guy xd and don't really know what I'm talking about since I only skimmed their iso looking for their vote.

What? This is where things get heated Faraday and Regfan and I should probably write up the post I should have written months ago to save myself and coutnless other players heart ache.

Noting the use of "their"here. Did you just mean as a whole because we are a hydra or some other reason?

Voided: Claim in your next post.

Do you see an intent to hammer anywhere? I don't.

Can't tell who is derpier...

Haha. I chuckled at this.

Ok the posts after that were all massively stupidbut

I really don't want to read either of Cerulean's wall material but I feel like I have to because I wall and it would be disrespectful not plus they both probably put a large amount of time into constructing them (definitely Empire)

*sigh* lol.

ok so empire's case actually wasn't that hard to read but then again I am taking it for granted and didn't click any of the links other than my vague remembrance of Tierce in our scumgame together whichbrings me to a point. Why didn't you include Paranoia Mafia? I think it is her third most recent scumgame?

Tammy's case reminds me of cases I make and i like the point she is making about Sixty keeping the door open on a read flip for tammy "she can do that as towntoo"

Lol, I'm not reading either of those long posts but I thought the case was a frame case anyway

I don't understand what you mean by frame case and I feel like you stating that undermines what you said about the case making matching Empire's play.

Empire, here's the scum games of Mehdi that I've found; Open 443, Mico 5, Micro 4. I've only skim read them so far but his tone there is very mechanical and lacks emotion completely which matches his play here - that said in those games he's a lot more straight forward with what his reads are and willing to take stances which he's done less of this game. I'll need to relook in more depth later because my heads hurting now but Faraday thinks Sixty - Soul are cross-bussing.

Still really hoping that Sixtys blitz hammer on Voided was a gambit rather than a jump at a mslynch.

why would that change your mind about anything?

And here you specifically state crossbussing so don't give me that bullshit "semantics" argument. You literally SAY cross bussing.

And yeah this is fake. I'd expect oversoul to be much more WTF as town. They probably mentioned it in the scum qt.

Told ya they were cross bussing Regfan. (I think it's far more likely Sixty cut their losses and took a mislynch rather than were morons and threw the game away for their team. Although it was prob over anyway. Wonder what that mans for their scumteam?)

What the fuck in what way?

And yet again you say cross bussing here again.... so forgive me when I lash out at you changing your words.

Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't a scum claim in any way. We think we have this game under control and feel comfortable to lynch everyone who isn't part of the set.

doesn't that contradcit what you said earlier about you not liking people who found you scummy?

I know Faraloser has commented on this already but I actually want a much bigger explanation and Post 455 really doesn't give that to me although elements of it does feel somewhat genuine but I rather not attempt to base a read on you solely of 'genuine frustration' because I think you can fake that to a degree. So lets go through this 1) When in the past have either of us misread you because from memory I've played 10? games where we were both town and I've read you correctly in 9 out of those 10 with the one exception being where I had a scum-read on your predecessor and Faradays saying he doesn't remember misreading you. 2) You're stating that this game is 'proof' that we can't read you correctly - what have you specifically done in this game that can be really attributed to your meta and reading of your meta, hunting into Mehdi, not you. 3) You state that you have 'discussed' the game with Medhi at times and have 'logs' but if that's the case then what's the massive need for you to 'catch-up' and provide content, if you've been discussing reads and thoughts than his posts would contain your thoughts too but that's not the case. So no, Faradays point about 'you' specifically not being the person bussing Sixty is actually correct. 4) Instead of 'raging' and getting upset actually speak logically with us, state your reads, your content and catch up thoughts and our read on Sixty is obvious if you're reading the game at all.

I'm just going to jump into this

You both read me wrong in GvE. And by reading wrong that still does include predecessor play but not in the way you think.

If you both had read me correctly you would have not pushed for my lynch despite my predecessor's play. You still pushed for my lynch. Because of my predecessor's play and my general flailing around at the time.

White Flag most of the townread was primarily developed from Captain Haddock's play not my own.

I died before you replaced into Children of Hurin although Faraday was right about me there.

I am trying to remember my other games with you. Flame warriors you read me farily accurately early on but then faltered, you were a hydra that game
you were a hydra in sexy sedilla, which was also my first game ever
I know i'm forgetting more

faraday had me as town very early on in bastard sanity dram game
Faraday read me as town as his seraph role in Children of hurin with mina as lb
faraday's comments are trolly in GvE and I think he was coming around to a townread as were you but you both definitely took effort to get to that point

So while I'm not going to say that you are objectively right, the times that we have actually PLAYED start to finish in the same slot I think is 0 unless I am forgetting a game. But the time we played 1 and 1 where both of you were available you both misread me.

I will concede the second point but the fact that you were engaging me and calling me scum after I started posting was where I was getting that emotion from. Imsorry I took it out of context like that and it was unfair for me to say that.

My discussion is more or less "I don't like sixty. have you read them" "no, v/la havent really read the gamein full just skimming. I can never really read those two players anyway" "do you have any reads" "kinda but not really I think piggy is scum but cant really explain why b/c technically ongoing, i think thor is town for early questions, voided might be scum desotn look atually interested" and so forth.

Im sorry for raging at you and hoefully by the time I post this I wll have explained myself through my own meta discussion and why i act the way I do when people suspect me.

And to set the record straight, bussing is pushing for your scumbuddy to get lynched whether or not it is successful has nothing to do with it. It is still bussing.

*cough Chrono Trigger cough*

is this supposed to mean anything to me?

This is terrible. Faraday occasionally slips like that, but it's hardly a stretch to assume scum connections pre-flip. You're saying that having scum-scum reads is scummy and shows scum knowledge? You're essentially accusing Faraday of lining up lynches, without showing how he's doing it in a scummy manner.

I didnt say that I am saying that he was trying to tie me to you because he knows you are scum and get a mislynch out of it.

I just remembered Maiden Mafia, yes you did read me correctly there but not initially and only afteryou discussed it with your hydra partner from what i remember

The hammer sucked monkey testes. That said, the play is fairly reminiscent of their play in Reverse Mafia which was a not dissimilar setup mentality.

Them being in the game as opposed to out of the game is fairly different.

their SUPER TOWN PLAN relies on their reads being sheeped after death or something. when if they were town they'd see that acting like a fucking parama wannabe is not a way to get listened to. I don't think they'd have failed to account for the damage the quickhammer would have caused if town and voided was town.

I have to agree with this especially since Tierce commonly bemoans dying Night 1 and no one listening to her so I figured in a nightless game should be especially vocal about things.

Just fucking lock this already!

He hasnt really posted anything of worth the past times he posted with the hammer and all by the way JT. How do you find this to be stronger town than us?

2. The quip about both being town reads is ridiculous I don’t even understand how someone could possibly have both Soul and JT as town reads.

What are your reads on us and JT?

Thor why not vote Sixty? Why is absta town?

Tammy, you are right that the moments I have been here I haven't been here here. And it isn't hard to scroll through their iso to look at the players they are pushing. It is hard to read and analyze posts from multiple different people across several pages but now I'm making excuses.

I would really like to be able to explain why I am so irritable as of late but unless you go researching into why, I cannot tell you. And that is all on that subject that I am personally going to say.

done

tl;dr

do not like Thor
do not like JT
do not like absta
Possibly do not like Piggy depending on meta research
Like Jesse
Like Cerulean
Like N

Crtl F your name (tammy might have to do tammy) or nickname or common some such I do have points that I do want answered though so please do Crtl F

I am probably not going to be around when Sixty is hammered unless it occurs now so please if you want me (as oversoul) to answer anything, ask now. I amgoing to discuss a possible situation with Mehdi that may give us a definitive read on Piggy's slot depending on how strong we feel our conclusions are and how confident Empire is in his meta conclusions.

pedit: well they are hammered and I have see the hydra account post elsewhere on the site so I feel very happy about the lynch

[Soul2277]

God damn iPhones.

It's due to his interaction with Piggh earlier. He wouldn't be so aggressive towards her when she said she knew his meta and he wouldn't reject a townread on that. It shows that he is aware people will probably attribute weak things to get by with a read on someone.

[Soul2277]

As scum I acknowledge that you are right and will be less forceful in my anger towards you but when I am town yo ubetter hope you fucking lock your doors at night or you don't play a game with me immediately after you mislynch me because I WILL hold it agianst you

LOL

(I'm not locking my door b/c I have a SCUMREAD on you)

You're wrong. Are you really on basing the scum read on OS because you think I sounded fake after Sixty came in and hammered?

You and Regfan's play here is making me really question whether or not I'll want to actively play with you two again.

Pedit:

No other reasoning Even though Cerulean used a line that you posted in your Awards and Metagame topic? About you being sketchier despite doing similar things as another player just because you are Thor?

Yes that game should be fine.

I was talking about how you think they were intelligent enough to not ask that question when in my mind you did a similar thing with regards to Jesse. So yes I think that is hypocritical. Calling out another player for something and then doing it yourself.

[Soul2277]

355 posts. Fml.

[Soul2277]

And it annoys me that I alt slipped like that... I am normally very good at not doing that.

[Soul2277]

Last several posts have all been OS. We're fairly agreed on town read wise (one last wall for concurrent reads later). DP's hammer just helps him as town (since I think he wouldn't need to ask those questions if he were in a scum qt with them).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You're wrong. Are you really on basing the scum read on OS because you think I sounded fake after Sixty came in and hammered?

??? The answer to this is fairly obviously no.

You and Regfan's play here is making me really question whether or not I'll want to actively play with you two again.

Oh. I'm heartbroken. Why's that? Is it because we don't match your high standards or because I called OS a fucking idiot (after being told to fuck off )? (I assume this is mehdi, because if not OS is referring to himself in the 3rd person although it's not signed. Doesn't matter anyway!)

Then why are you calling us scum? Because Mehdi is acting mechanical like he does normally? Asking questions? Like he does normally? And I specifically said OS there for a reason. Yes that was me talking in third person.

I raged at Blackberry in that game (probably a year ago now) because he aggregated the shit out of me and wasn't going to lynch mafia plus he had caught me for the wrong reasons IMO.

Empire I replaced into Purified Mafia and what do you know... Completely unlike my play here.

No matter how hard Faraday and Regfan try to spin it this is my town meta. We are not scum.

I apologize for saying fuck off. I need a break from this game. I
Just think you both are being very divergent from what I remember of your personalities and we definitely are not serif eye to eye.

[Soul2277]

If you want more accurate scum game stuff, Empire, go to Paranoia Mafia.

I was kinda surprised you didn't seeing as it has OS and Tierce scum meta in one game.

[Soul2277]

If you are going to say that a cult game from a year ago and then my play as a traitor in a borked ass setup when my own teammate outted me is apart of my meta then yes. Fine. Technically you aren't spinning my fucking meta.

The twisting my words I already said with regards to the bussing comment and if you read the wall you would see that.

Unless I am missing where you asked me.

Anymore comments from us today will probably be Mehdi.

And you are so lucky Mehdi thinks you are town out of this whole ordeal.

Good night.

[Soul2277]

Did you not read what I said? I fuckimg know that.

[Soul2277]

Jt sure it's weak. I already called him a toen read and was just adding to it (that's the other read I disagree with OS on). Expand on Thor town (yes I remember the reads list but I still want you to explain it more including how his day 2 play was town).

Not sure if I replied to it already, but I find giving reads to be assertive. And I'd also like you to back up the statement that my reads in other town games show more thought.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I think given the situations and neither of those were normal games in any form or fashion you'd be able to tell the difference.

OS

Good night everyone

[Soul2277]

Would you expect that obvious wagon to have taken so long if both of sixty's partners voted him. As for the last two scum question currently Thor and leaning piggy. Will expand on both later when I'm not phone posting.
VOTE: Thor

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I'm saying your logic doesn't work well (in fact n one of your scum reads didn't even vote sixty).

[Soul2277]

How is she ballsy this game. She's posted awkwardly but that's similar to her scum start in futurama. And she's been pretty passive after day 1 (reminiscent of her micro play in a past zoro micro).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

N is likely town today, but beard said he was suspicious yesterday without much flow between reads? I won't deal with quoting you right now though (later today when I'm home sure).


~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Dead can you expand on bad, bad, good? (specifically more on JS being scum and why is Thor town) And I don't understand the read change on me (it was two bads then read good now?).

P-edit: So what exactly did it say. Who do you think was genuinely attacking you're slot (or do you think all who fosed you were town?)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Thor/Piggy arguing is interesting too. Considering it's part white flag I really doubt both are scum.

And piggy so you not saying much during day 2 was just lack of care?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Still need an explanation on how thor is town. Both as scum doesn't work and of the two I see more reasons for piggy town then thor (Tammy gave multiple early on). That and explain to me more on how it's bad to have sixty as a second scum read back when voided was the one being focused towards.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

@Dead, And what's bad in 114? Me not voting for a day or two isn't really bad. 102 is pretty short and just summarizes a past reason given.

@Thor, That's a reason for more on JT's idea being bad. Reads wall later will expand, but summary for you is

a. day 2 and day 3 voting with the n vote connecting with the second reason while the jesse vote being on one thing (voting n over sixty when they were being a very likely lynch is a scum tell how) plus us having jesse as a town read,

b. 640 doesn't really respond to point in 638,

c. Sheer amount of beard pushing when it comes to some reads with minimal other reasoning. I know you can use logic but in this game you can say beard plus a short reason and it's working,

d. Read flow has problems. Why is piggy town? You unvoted her and voted someone else but after unvoting them you just kept on elsewhere without ever really going back and explaining how she's town. Absta to a lesser extent since before his replace out you didn't mention him much and it was usually more not understanding him or finding him a bit scummy (unless the replace out by itself is enough to go from null/scum to town). Vote voided after little mention of him with the main scum mention was my scum read on him made sense, and linked to the next one

e. Lack of true force with each scum read. Right now you're suspecting jesse. Before n. Didn't really like sixty but stayed on n. Both you've not really pushing hard (n I realize was related to being a counter wagon but that doesn't nullify this). The only person you've fosed a lot and pushed quite a bit for their lynch after the first couple of pages was voided who even there wasn't really your lynch. I'd expect you to being pushing and leading more lynch wise, but that's lacking. Remind me who you're scum reads are and how you're currently pushing a lot for their lynch?

a and b naturally being added after OS's wall, but the other 3 being the main ones (d being the most important I want an explanation to).

And jesse pretty sure you're forgetting to reply to a question in OS's wall.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Near the very end of the wall. It's below the last thing he quoted in the wall.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Either way. It's the same arguments (just one actually bothers to quote things and say things in more detail) so I'd expect the response to be the same.

Jesse how can you're other two scum reads have wagons on them? There's 3 wagons and one is on us, second on thor, and 3rd on you. It can't be us or you so assuming thor is one where is the other wagoned scum read hiding?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Vaguely saying it's completely destroyable when one of the points is you've been over using gut instead of reason just adds to that reason some.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Lastly jesse I'm curious for what? What makes us leaning scum? Is it following JT, a different reason, something I'm forgetting, etc?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

A plus means something. Go back to how is it scummy for someone to be interested in a wagon different then sixty when it was clear they were being lynched.

B sure.

C so how far has that gotten you with getting people to agree with your reads? Voided you gave reasoning too and others did and was lynched. What about other reads?

D try quoting were you suspected voided much before the vote. Or were you gave reasons why piggy was town before you said you wanted a counter wagon for her. That's the problem. Those are lacking/minimal.

Thor for e I said I realized n was a vote to test for things, but that still leaves the hole of where were you leading and pushing scum reads hard. Day 2 lacks that when you remember the reasoning for voting n, jesse you're attacking more now but before that outside of a really short reason given for voting him (and I'm curious how many people you'd expect to follow you when you just say he's scum for being interested in another wagon then sixty that day), and then voided who did push. I just expect you to be leading more and focusing more on scum reads actually being lynched.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Oh and jesse response wise to 681 second quote:

OS has done that before. OS has even said he doesn't like it when as town he's suspected (hydra document in our last game where we hydra'd is where you can find him saying that). And as for the pounce on well want to expand on that?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I was planning on arguing with you for one response (thor is more likely scum there). At the time when I said that I thought thor was more likely town tonally. Your response was essentially the two are just equal so I didn't argue it. A partly loaded question isn't a bad thing and I don't see a pounce following it.

It's because I wanted to know what you're arguing. Saying this feels wrong without knowing more on it leaves a defense of I think you're gut feeling is just wrong.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Thor can you not guess why he didn't say it before.

Dead still want you to answer my questions.

@Thor,

A. I'm saying shifting reads with lack of explanation in between is scummy. How did Jesse do that (since you're implying he didn't explain his read changes). I'm not even arguing you haven't given reads. I'm arguing you haven't really explained read changes with reason/logic more than once.

C & E. What other reads means how has you're pushing helped you on your other reads? How many people have changed minds to scum jesse or how many people have been convinced by what you said on a town read that they're actually town. Being clearer how much has what you said made other people say I agree with that part specifically and now agree with your read on them (not literally that but you should understand the point). Tammy's made fun of the beard a bit by now.

D. First two parts of the response is that's the problem. Last part is lack of read explanation in between just feels like changing whenever wanted or just ignoring past reads when no longer useful. Can you not see how going voided read makes sense -> vote voided later with 0 expansion on it isn't strange?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Ceru can you be more specific? I don't see anything bad in the way he asked (strange sure, but bad nope).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

A/D. So you're read changes were N (reaction reasons), piggy (rvs reasons), and voided (lack of real explanation of him being scum besides one mention of I understand the voided lean). I think the 3rd one is scummy (first 1 is null, second one I honestly didn't consider piggy to be a pure rvs vote from how you sounded when pushing her, but it's more null). Any clearer I can be? If you need more on how is it scummy to not explain why someone is scum when voting them well that's kind of the best I can clarify.

As for not mentioning the piggy thing there I don't notice everything immediately. Reading through the game again and noticing something then bringing it up works.

C/E. 524 is where I was referring to tammy making fun of the beard. Essentially it really does boil down I just don't think you've been loud enough before when pushing reads.

Ceru suspect dead for what? Is the forced questioning the only reasoning (and does it out weigh absta's strange play that fits his town meta?)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And Mod: Can you delete 731?

I don't like to delete a post when there have been this many posts after it because it throws off all the post numbers, so I blanked it instead – callforjudgement

[Soul2277]

A/D. Giving reasoning afterwards doesn't change the lack of flow in reasoning. Anyways someone else can comment (dead/ceru what do you think on this?) since we're now going back and forth in circles on this.

C/E. Well agree to disagree (since the point is you're not loud enough so you understand it but I still think it's scummy).

Tammy it does feel like you're ignoring absta though which is why I said that. Dead replaced into a slot and you're read of the whole slot is based on a few actions from now (which a lot more comments just appeared, but I think the start of the push you're just not thinking about him enough since I still see both of you town arguing over a slight that expanded)?

Dead am I scum? I'm pushing thor is scum and am somehow a town read too?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

My point is what does it mean that I'm pushing thor? It's bad for ceru, but I'm fine because of other things (which the rest of ceru's play makes them obv town anyway).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

My point is what does it mean that I'm pushing thor? It's bad for ceru, but I'm fine because of other things (which the rest of ceru's play makes them obv town anyway).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I may sheep you - but first your hydra owes me those reads I asked about.

Why?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

How's emp been doing when it comes to reading my meta?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I meant why for the first part (the I may sheep you).

Quick reads summary we now both agree on. We'll expand on later likely Monday except for thor which the summary and argument following it I think makes clear our reasoning on him:

Town
Ceru
Dead
Jesse
JT
N

Scum
Piggy
Thor

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

It is not a sliding scale.

Still disagree with ceru on arthur. People who know you can still misread you (and he wouldn't want to work with someone he thinks is scum).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Calmly summarize you're argument on him along with all he's said. Not calling someone scum isn't really a scum tell (is there a big difference between heavily imply and say?). Thinking you're scum and changing reads on you when he read your reads (which would have been after he looked at the posts made in the catch up) isn't scummy. You're pretty much saying the town tells he decided in his catch up post (which doesn't cover the whole game) can't be changed after finishing reading the game if he thinks you're scummier overall.

Skipping thor's response the reason I'm questioning him is because why would someone town say I might sheep you when you're fosing a strong town read of his (the fact he was fine with you saying he's adamant on it is enough for him being a strong town read). Ceru what is your read on thor right now?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

JT I want your response to the argument me and thor have that's around their (probably a page or two after where you are).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Actually looking back it was before that. You have thor as strong town. So I want a response to that argument (along with comment on the second part of 792).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Piggy was essentially just a meta argument from both of us. My experience of her and his experience were different (I've only played with her town games so he basically argued that her awkwardness was a null tell at best along with how she wasn't doing it as noticeable compared to DD mafia where she faked a PR as town).

N there really wasn't much argument. We just mostly agreed on him being town (and I believe we answered why before). Only time that really weakened was activity lack after first few posts but as the game as gone on he's continued similarly and town read has stayed.

You, I think the argument can be partly seen in thread already. It was basically mostly in calming OS down since I mostly just argued his annoyance was making him biased negatively and just pointed to equi being town and you're activity and constant giving reads/questioning with quite a bit of thought were obv town.

Jesse same as N really. Alignment read wise there just wasn't much argument there either.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Expanding on that a bit, base reads were mine since I was keeping up first while OS was busy. OS did read through and just add in to them but jesse/n town came from me first and then he just agreed with it. Equinox he originally agreed with (although he wasn't caught up then to really say much there) and then got annoyed with you followed by what was said in 803. Piggy was a more early argument that got delayed because he was busy.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Considering OS is still busy here's the answer for the question you want JT. He started the wall 2/3 days ago (can't remember when exactly) and then finished it yesterday just continuing from where he was.

Next for n even while null we tended to think of more as town. N being null was mainly his disappearance day 1 so him going back and continuing to post a similar level of content made us just go back to the read. It really wasn't an argument though.

As for you I didn't ever think you were scum (you're slot I found equi suspicious at start, but after that nope). I argued with you because you suspected me.

JT yes he uses beard elsewhere. Point being I've seen him use more logic then this. It's not the fact he's using it but the amount he's using it (I might be biased since I generally read games he ICs, but that at least shows he can use more logic).

Piggy for what?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Deadpool, I'm really interested in hearing F-16's thoughts on the game so please try to get him in here ASAP.

Why? Have you played with him before? If yes have you not played with SAD?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Looking back at reverse mafia thor pushed on sixty first. Basically:

Sixty I don't want to be revived now since I don't want to die.
Thor we'll never revive you then.
Then argument between the two a lot.

I don't really think vi/tierce are the quick to bus type in this set up (although I don't know their meta) which I thought is a point in piggy's favor. Other things (disappearance after day 1 for a while, the interesting sixty attack following when she was less likely to be lynched, her reads such as mine and I'll copy you on jesse) point to her being scum. The other problem is I'm not sure how likely a thor/piggy team is. Originally it looked doubtful but if piggy is unable to really push thor a lot then it'd be a good move.

P-edit: Empire do you think tierce would bus early in this set up (specifically how it's white flag)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Pushing you over others when he knows you makes sense. The line of thought was strange but it works (and it's not impossible to bs a read when you're skimming). Mainly though there are things that make that slot very very likely town out weighing the strange argument.

Reg yeah the argument originated over set up strategy (it later became both found the other scummy), but that's how the argument started. Meh, I can see both as scum currently.
UNVOTE: Thor
VOTE: Piggy

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Explain it in your words then. The argument I remember started in day 1 and continued to day 2 where you got revived and sixty argued against it until Xalxe revealed a cop inno.

And thanks faraday...

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

That more supports a piggy/thor team a bit if you consider piggy as scum. Curious what game you're referring to (although she did sheep thor a ton in DD mafia as scum).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

So does jesse work with anyone else besides piggy? That's currently how it's sounding (that all strange links go between the two). That and if you're linking them so heavily why piggy over jesse?

And thor response to 41 in that game followed by around 99/100 are more of where I saw the argument between you two start. Although really that's just me remembering things somewhat off (point of the argument sprouting from set up remains though so it's not like you two just jump to argue together alignments normally).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

^Meaning?

And Jt why do you want jesse/ceru to vote piggy specifically vs having any of the non piggy voters vote piggy?

P-edit: Ceru so who're you voting again?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Thor/jesse/n adding to it piggy's meta isn't even completely null. Her awkwardness at start of this game isn't really same type of strange as faking a pr just for meta reasons. It's more forced this game then other wise (considering how often she brought up herself as a defense).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Wait thor who's jesse's partnered with if it's not piggy? That and you don't feel confident on piggy scum either.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Is there anyone who'd pretend to be town with their partner hammered? Don't think so, so piggy's town since everyone has posted after the hammer.

Which leads back to thor. JT I don't see jesse's partner right now. Nor do I like how thor is just jumping to push on jesse for the next day. The links between piggy and jesse don't work as scum to scum links either now.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Thinking on it thor/n works best right now although at the same time I prefer thor over n (reasons being past reads on each individually). I still think n's more likely town though but thor fits with him most (and jesse scum implies either dead/ceru/jt are scum which is even more doubtful).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Dead what makes thor scum now? Before it was a thor/piggy scum team but that doesn't seem possible so I'm interested in how you're sticking to thor as one of the two likely scum.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

VOTE: Thor

JT, dead, and ceru are all pretty strong town reads. That leaves n, jesse, and thor. N + jesse doesn't work. Plus past reasons for thor and I'll repeat stuff later when I'm more awake.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

That would leave N and still makes thor a fine vote, although really jesse/n is the more obvious doesn't fit (they've pushed each other harder then thor has pushed on jesse while jesse has tended not really to push him a lot while suspecting him).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Vote Count

• Thor665 (3)
  : Soul2277 PiggyGal15, JesseSheffield
  
• JesseSheffield (2)
  : Thor665 N
  
• Soul2277 (1)
  : Justin Timberlake
  
• Deadpool (1)
  : Cerulean
  
• Not voting:
  Deadpool

Deadline: Sat 1 Dec, 23:29 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-12-01 23:29:00)

)

With 8 alive it is 5 to lynch.

*Moved Jesses vote from where the quote states where it was to where it actually should be as he voted Thor in Post 681

So you think both leading wagons here are on scum with their partner voting each other in a game where if either of them get lynched they autoloss? I think the chance that they're the scum-team are pretty close to 0% whereas N and Jesse have argued but haven't really voted each other for long periods or when each where realistically close to being lynched yet. But lets say that you're right about Jesse / N not being partners (Which I do want to see a little backing towards other than just them arguing) that means it has to be Thor + N? If that's the case can you show me how they work as a scum-team?

Do you think buddying is town then? Honestly it's play style related and at a point in time where neither could ever be lynched they'd want mislynches and not look suspicious as much as possible.

And the reasoning simply is the sheer amount of arguing and how N seriously seems to be pushing for jesse's lynch (as can be seen in the post right after yours). Eliminating jesse/n leaves thor/n or jesse/thor (considering who I have as strong town reads). Third one I can see why it's doubtful now. As for thor/n, on thor's side he's town read him quite a bit (interesting difference from where he suspected n a lot when he was town in reverse mafia). N really hasn't fought thor. I don't see what's wrong with that pair. Still prefer thor vote though (and I'm curious how n fits well with both for all saying that) just because independently I find him scummier.

958: Reason for JT town include the sheer amount of posting and logic he's showing. He's not just using some he's going to the details of questioning reads with thought, staying calm arguing, pushing on people a lot (he was the one who really led the piggy wagon even though he wasn't the first vote).

965: JT answered it well. A lot of the feelings I have for that slot as town is because of absta.

974: You realize everyone had posted at that point so either piggy's partner was continuing to be town or she wasn't scum. Second feels more likely to me.

1000: How did you pick games for meta? I know you can't post them all but is there some way you're using for choosing games or just pick some? I'd also recommend most recent games (I do have a scum game after the two you posted that's much more recent then them and I'll assume that implies for others too).

1005: Expand a bit more. It's not like piggy was as sure of a lynch as sixty so you could have definitely continued elsewhere fine.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Easy explanation is he thinks n isn't attacking thor because as scum it would be bad for him either way, but he's still trying to not look at him as town.

And JT trust us and the number of partnerships is equal really.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Jesse what are your non n reads? JT and thor mainly.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And thor/emp can you answer the questions I made towards you in 1006.

~Mehdi

Here emp. A game that ended less then 2 days ago for me.

Micro 63

I also already have pretty much called you a liar (well mafia). I can still question you though.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I don't understand how you grabbed the term buddying from? My Post 950 has zilch to do with either of them 'buddying' anyone but the point I'm drumming in is that them legitimately pushing hardcore for each others lynches and actually voting each other to follow through with it fairly strongly points against them being partners. And I see what you're saying about N and Jesse arguing but there's a difference between arguing and voting each other and arguing and not really voting each other, before this post of yours they weren't doing any of the actual pushing for the lynch of the other so I don't understand how you think Jesse / N is less likely than Jesse / Thor. But if you want to pretend that both are impossible then it would have to be Thor and N. So you haven't done what I've asked at all. I want flat out reasoning and links that make them likely partners not just stating that they haven't interacted much. And I haven't said anythings wrong with that pair but if it's the only team you think is plausible you should be relatively confident enough to put forward a case.

A. Buddying in reference to the votes being next to each other.
B. I've made my suspicions pretty clear. I could ask OS to write a wall case but honestly I just don't want to.
C. That was the reasoning. I think their constant arguing makes them unlikely to be a pair. You disagree since they didn't vote each other yet, but to me that's enough for the reasoning.

And what does 993 have to do with dead?

And mod could you delete the last post?

[Soul2277]

Caught up too, but really I'm still comfortable with all my reads.

Although curious on what are all the results of the meta searches? That and I'm still waiting to hear reg's reply on the rest of my meta since I don't remember it).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I still don't understand A) I don't know if it's because I'm still somewhat asleep but what does buddying have to do with anything they've done or their votes being next to each other? Explain it clearly for me please. I rather you do B) if they're the only pair you think are possible you would have confidence, confidence means you would know there's a lot of posts and linkages that would create a strong case, show me them yourself if you don't want Oversoul to do it. I have no issue with what C) was anymore since done the reading into that pair and don't think it's plausible either.

A. Define buddying. Mine is when two people just obviously connect with each other in thread in a nice/helpful way. The votes being next together is buddying.

B. Sure, OS can write one later.

Jt/emp pretty sure both of you by now have read parts of my meta especially when I know jt has commented on parts of it. So you could say connections right now then add the rest when you finish reading vs explaining my meta to me just when you finish reading.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You realize even back then n and jesse had argued a lot. And thor had back then already pushed on jesse quite a bit. And then everyone else looked pretty town then. Saying I can't rule out combinations then when the reasoning to rule them out now is identical to before (well n and jesse not being a team being even more obvious now then before) is just dumb.

P-edit: How you want to call it doesn't really matter. To me referencing the votes being the same and close to each other was an act of buddying. And I believe I meant n/thor not thor/jesse (the original question was show thor/n working as a scum team).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Clarifying a vote.

1006: First paragraph of mine refers to last two lines in the quote of you.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

A. Define buddying. Mine is when two people just obviously connect with each other in thread in a nice/helpful way. The votes being next together is buddying.

And you think this is scummy? (Or makes them more likely scum together why?)

HA!

[Soul2277]

*twitch*

so
many
pages

[Soul2277]

A. Define buddying. Mine is when two people just obviously connect with each other in thread in a nice/helpful way. The votes being next together is buddying.

And you think this is scummy? (Or makes them more likely scum together why?)


BAMF

I already said why in the first post I quoted where this started. They want mislynches most right now. So being willing to connect more to push for two mislynches works. Especially when neither really is pushing the other nor does it look like they plan to vote the other.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Wait until tonight then.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

OS finishing his wall should be around then. Later tonight would have been better though, but waiting a couple hours won't kill you.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And Faraday I'm still male.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Who's the 3rd then?

~M

[Soul2277]

Right now thanksgiving. Before just busy really (you can ask him with what exactly) and he is the wall side of this hydra at the moment (asking him to write two cases thinks a bit of time although one is mainly done). In my case I don't celebrate thanksgiving at all so it just gives me more free time.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You realize jt asked for a n/thor case (and considering you're reading DD mafia you should realize our cases are on the long side). N is the one that's mostly done. Thor hasn't really been written yet and is the later tonight thing. Do you want them posted together or separately?

~M

[Soul2277]

B) if they're the only pair you think are possible you would have confidence, confidence means you would know there's a lot of posts and linkages that would create a strong case, show me them yourself if you don't want Oversoul to do it. I have no issue with what

Looking at other parts of that convo should also help clear it up (and you didn't actually answer the question in the last post).

~M

[Soul2277]

I'm here Tammy but I had a paper to write over the weekend due monday and I anticipated not being very active for this game hence the hydra. Plus I've been kinda more lazy because I have Mehdi to rely on.
Then driving home and family time + old friend time

In short real life got the better of me and I am using Mehdi as a crutch for activity when I shouldn't be and I am sorry. To everyone. Including Mehdi.

[Soul2277]

Your time will come.

[Soul2277]

Do you think a wall case on N by us is really going to be just that? I don't even know how you make a decent wall with that as the only reason for n scum.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Would you respond to the case on him yourself then if you think it's that weak of a reason (and still seem to think he's town)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Here's the first case. Having to look back and analyze n more made the read on him individually change as well to be stronger then the thor scum read. VOTE: N

N case

I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

What makes you say I like bandwagonning? I mean, I do; but the only other game I've played with you is Reverse Mafia and I don't remember wagonning anyone for no particular reason in that game.

I'm a stalker N

Really? Which games of mine have you stalked? They've been mostly newbies and micros, so I can't see why you'd have much interest in them.

I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/

Let me get this straight: you dislike RVS; in order to end RVS you (a) jokingly call someone out for being V/LA (b) want to let it continue (c) think everyone who hasn't posted yet should join in the RVS and (d) think you'll be lynched for it?

Sorry for disappearing; I started a new job and I'm pretty exhausted. I've tried to read though the thread, and I'm about to comment on things that grabbed my attention, but I'm sure there's stuff I've missed; please point it out. (I also noticed people saying I posted elsewhere; I made a few quick phone posts before work this morning in games I'd just been prodded in (or was about to be) and am doing the same thing now for the next wave. It's a horrible way to play and I don't like making promises about content, but I'll have more time later in the week toward the weekend.)

Oh, and N, they're all wonderful ongoing games that you are in

This is such a cop out. You're saying me wagonning in RVS is a town-tell and when I press for more info on where you got that idea from, you say ongoing games? How can something you've picked up from my ongoing games be a town-tell? You don't know my alignment in those games and if I try and press you too hard you can just avoid talking about ongoing games.

Well, I suppose point b should actually be "I know it's going to continue, so why bother stopping it?"

You don't think there's any way you could stop RVS? How do you think RVS ever ends if everyone just sits on their hands and waits for someone else to end it?

I'm in agreement with my other head that N looks town based on his piggy questioning.

I know this townread is "gone" now because I disappeared, but it was a pretty shit reason for a townread anyway. I was pretty much talking to her about my own meta; that's a towntell now is it? (This isn't just for Cerulean; I saw other people say similar things.)

...Huh. I didn't multi-quote anything later in the thread (or it didn't work for some reason if I did), but I will admit I started skimming when it became walls about meta. If there's something I missed, point me to it!

All of these posts look town in my eyes and Mehdi felt the sameway, but while I was rereading everything I remembered that someone (N I am pretty sure) said he did not have any scumgames that were on the record. I felt like this would be a good time to compare this game from his other completed games. I remember my first time playing as Mafia I was nervous as hell and played a completely different game. I think the change from all town games to his first scum game would be noticeable and I think there is something there.

Reverse Mafia
Nomination Mafia
Double Day

These are the games I looked at for reference.

In each of his games, looking at N's posting style and tone he has been more... sassy for lack of a better term. One example of his sassiness would be:

Uhhh, it's page 4 and IceGuy has certainly managed to give great reasoning >_>
It's the same amount of pages for him as it is for you.

I imagine it's quite dark that far up IceGuy's ass.

He is playing a tongue in cheek and says it how it is type of game.

Here if you just take a cursory glance at his iso he is much more formal, much more serious. His posts are longer and they contain more content than normal the games that I have looked at. Even looking at the first three posts that I have quoted, his sassiness here is on the verge of jerk and his aggression isn't tongue in cheek. It is pure aggression.

As a first time scum this could be overcompensation for what he feels is what looks like protown behavior.

I don't even remember anything Voided has done. But then again, I haven't been paying the best attention to this game. Right now, the only things I can remember are that Piggy did some really scummy shit early game (I can't remember anything she's done since, though, so I guess that's how she's slipped others' suspicions?), Sixty has made some horrible cases (seriously, the last time I saw a case that bad was by a cop who had a guilty result but didn't want to claim their role), Mehdi/blue-avatar/Thor had a big argument with lots of walls (I skimmed most of it), and there's too many damn hydras running around (and I can't keep them straight). Oh, and Justin Timberlake replaced in and made

more

fucking walls.

So, from the small amount of information I managed to retain, let's lynch Piggy and Sixty and the third partner can do whatever they're currently doing and it doesn't matter.

While this feels like what N did in Reverse Mafia and it in my opinion displays the tonal feeling that I mentioned about his other town games. However, what is interesting is his reference to JT. In his other game he made mention about the replace out (UN) feeling that it was town tell for him. In this he only complains about JT being a nuisance for him due to his decreased activity. He's taking a past town tell he's used and not treating it like a town tell this game.

I don't understand the argument between Soul and Justin, so I'm going to ignore it. I don't have a scumread on either of you, so I think it might be two townies arguing while the mafia sit back and do nothing.

Absta's didn't-read-the-rules-properly towntell attempt on the last page looks way too over the top, so for the moment, he can be the third scum we've been looking for. (The other two being Piggy and Sixty, of course.) I was starting to think the third could be Thor, because he hadn't called me scummy yet (he always seems to - okay, in the two completed games we have together he did), but he just voted for me so that's all okay.

I'd hammer Sixty, but I want them to come in and make some more incriminating posts and hopefully out their buddies for real.

Two things I have to say about this post that I feel haven't been commented on with all the N hate and this post in particular is really what made me question the N read after having to go back and read him again.

The first sentence "I am just going to ignore it, you two are townies" is my biggest grievance with the post. That is perhaps one of the most glaringly obvious and lazy scumtells on this site and it has been committed by a number of other scum that I have caught, specifically in relation to me and my walls and just general posting habit. I keep it in my back pocket because so far it really has not failed me relative to nonlazy people (Faraday/Thor I am looking at you).

The second part is after I had looked at N's other games. He says that the towntell looks over the top and then goes on to qualify his read. The qualifying is again, a thing that scum do, most likely from the same psychological vein that N drew from for his over aggressive attitude. They feel the need to overcompensate and qualify for things because there isn't enough "surrounding" the comment. This is also why scum commonly feel the need to comment on everything, even their buddies, but that is getting into mafia theory.

I will go onto explain that I feel this proves my point about N posting more and having more content versus his other games because he feels the need to. What has changed from those other games?

533 I'm noting this post for the specific mention of the Thor when he says "probable-town read" on the slot but the snippiness of the post is more over the top aggression that isn't like his town meta. He isn't joking about things or pretending to joke about things.

Lol.

Okay, I think you're scummy. Also, what is your case on me? If you're going to call that shit in #519 a case, you're worse as scum than Sixty.

VOTE: Jesse

Please remind me where you ever voted Sixty or expressed that they were scum for you to have this amount of confidence?

I'm not understanding why they're making such a big deal out of nothing, or how it started. I understand you don't actually care, because two townies fighting can only ever be good for you.

This is entirely unwarranted given the context of the situation and that he only expressed that Jesse was scummy.

N: I’m honestly over it.

Well, that's convenient.

Then again this is typical and what I would expect from N given the situation. Meh.

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

Did you really expect him to tell you why he wanted your reads before you'd actually given them?

That isn't as unprobable as you think it is N given and I highly doubt that SAD would have not complied given how connected he is with Tammy via their offsite games together.

you think Mehdi's meta points towards him being scum, I think it actually matches his town games more appropriately;

Weren't you searching for other opinions on Mehdi's meta?

Personally reading the Jesse v. N argument I am leaning more towards Jesse's point of view because I may have an unspoken admiration of him. However, the nitpicky argument just goes to show the general seriousness of N's play more so than the other games that I referenced earlier in the post.

I really am trying not to make this redundant, but between the brutish comments and the general scumtells that N is making I don't know how else to explain it.

I can understand a Cerulean town-read, but I would like you to explain how Deadpool is confirmed town.

Clutching at straws so that N as scum would have more to work with in terms of getting people lynched if Deadpool is town.

But you should also check how much other people mentioned me? I was pretty bust with rl stuff for most of day 1, so I think most people barely mentioned me. Searching for " N " in absta's iso comes up with 0 matches, for instance, as does Equinox, and Voided only mentions me in one post. (I chose to search them because they were also only here for day 1. I can't be bothered figuring out where day 1 stops for other people.)

I find this particularly misleading since while they weren't in the game alive the whole time like sixty, sixty also said more compared to equinox and absta while voided was occupied with defending himself day 1 more.

Ns town read on Thor for 'voting him' is extremely odd, not something I'd ever consider a town-tell especially since it's based of just two games - did just go hunting for them to see if Thor was actually town in both games and he was - it's Reserve Rudex and Political Corruption if anyone's interested.

Now that we're both dead in it, I can point out that he thought I was scummy in Newbie 1288 too. So there was actually a little bit more to my read than two games we'd been in together.

Actually, that game has not completely ended. (another damn loss for me...)

And if we're talking about possible pairings, have a look at Jesse and Deadpool/absta. Jesse spent a lot of time early in the game soft-defending Absta, until Absta came in and said "Wtf is your problem? Stop defaming me." Even after that, the only thing Jesse actually addressed Absta with was a generic "Can you explain a lot more in depth your reads?"
After Deadpool replaced in, Jesse has only addressed him is in general futile chatter. First thing Deadpool says about Jesse is "Jesse reads as somewhat scum." and makes a small case against him, before suddenly (with no mentions of him in between) "Jesse reads genuine :/" and telling him "I already said you read town" and then that last bit of chain-sawing on me and Thor (I hope I'm using the right buzzword here).
I know Sixty listed them both in the never lynch list, but thinking about Sixty's play, I think she'd either list both of their buddies, or neither.

I don't think this is par for the course with N and it looks like a desperate attempt to get any wagon other than himself at this point. His town reasoning for Thor is a loose meta reason based on a recently finished game which in my opinion points even more to Thor as scum if N is scum.

[Soul2277]

So thor is the only important point still the fact n is your only likely partner?

~Mehdi (last post was Mehdi, but most of the case was OS)

[Soul2277]

Thor who's your second scum read at least then? And why?

~M

[Soul2277]

Not really. Only about the first 1/3 or so of the case is on your meta. And it's not the type of the thing I'd expect you to evolve into (when is more aggression and seriousness something you just evolve into having?)

[Soul2277]

And here's the other case. Spoilered because it's long.

Spoiler: Thor Case

Why were you just kidding about the v/la?

Why did you ask that question? It seemed fairly self explanatory from the sarcastic post she made.

As you will see in the case this is post is apart of a long stream of disengaged, but "active" questions that he adds that I really do not think lead to a conclusion or at least aren't followed up. Like my N read earlier, I thought his aggression was town but once the Sixty wagon progressed and Thor waffled around I felt that he wasn't really contributing to finding scum.

Looking at his comments that he was the most aggressive player during the early game makes me hesitant about what I read because I did not think he was particularly aggressive but I think that is because he and I have different definitions of what is aggressive.

Why bring up the v/la then?

Again, what purpose did this serve?

Are you familiar at all with Piggy's town game?

This post in my opinion implies that Thor has meta as a reason to formulate his opinion on Piggy yet later in the game he explains that he neither prefers nor dislikes meta in reasoning to call people scummy.

Why make this comment when he's shown some apathy to meta? It's another question that means little to him but he just asked it anyway to look busy.

Remind me how by reading only scum games you become aware of someone's scum meta.
I slept through that part of class.

This is dismissive and passive aggressive in my opinion as meta being used is a large part of other people's playstyles. Plus in it I feel like he is being nitpicky about the fact that "only reading" scum games means it is bad. He is ignoring the fact that there are patterns in meta as well as the fact that there could be differences in meta.

Thor, do you believe that meta research on N, who "only has" town games is inconclusive?

That seems re-actively offensive to me.

Again, how can scum meta be 'suggested' when you actually, as of yet, have no awareness what her scum meta is?

As I said, Thor was being dismissive and this post just goes to show it especially once he further says that he recalls Tammy being able to tell that water flows downhill as a passing remark against Empire's intelligence.

While later in the game Thor qualifies that he was busy rattling Cerulean's cage I feel that this was an ulterior motive to try and discredit any potential case that Empire was readily trying to make.

Also, if Thor feels this way about the meta research that they are going to make why would he make that comment unless he really thinks it would be useless?

The bit about not getting what suggesting means when Empire may not be fully aware of Piggy's scum meta also is nitpicky and designed to discredit in my opinion.

The motivation behind your posts here seems forced, like you're asking questions, but you don't really care about their answers.

So I'm laid back because I don't seem to care about the answers to my questions?
How do you conclude that?

What part of the post do you not like from Piggy? The fact that she thinks you don't care yet ask questions because I am seriously confused by this post of yours.

I know you probably won't read this but since you "demolished" Mehdi's case earlier I think you'll respond to anything that is actually seriously addressed to you.

Like Piggy, my opinion of Thor, after reading his actions in LyLo of that Newbie game he gave to me where he breaks down the case on him through questions while "correct" only serve to undermine the basis of the question.

I can easily see a person playing a laidback game and throwing out questions without really caring where things land and that is what I think Thor is doing.

Why not for my blatant quick wagon of you? Or does that not look scummy?

I like this from Thor and I think this actually a pretty town remark coming from him since it seems that Thor is interested in why Piggy finds him scummy for reasons not including one that'd require omgus but still being partly true.

Since I actively try to emulate my town play as scum - none that I am aware of...also none that anyone has ever been able to show me, because then I would have adjusted. I've never had to adjust.

Noting this for future reference in the case.

I personally think you're trying to get me to put more meaning into that 'suggests' than there really is.
Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

You were the one that had the problem with the word in the first place and made a post dedicated to it. Again, note the dismission of the meta reasoning.

I already answered this - what part didn't you grok?

I think I'm missing this answer, can you please quote it. Do you mean where you talked about how you have never needed to adjust?

Why can you understand other motivation questions but not this one?

So early in your iso and I am already getting confused because you answer questions with questions which is not helpful in my opinion.

So I'm a lesser town read than N because, even though I'm doing more townish things I concern you more?

These are the type of posts that I was referring to when I was questioning you about "you don't feel that Ceru is town for the MD topic basically?"

If you'd just called it a bad excuse I'd be more on a wavelength with you.
But you said 'why would scum want people to feel comfortable' which means you *were* applying the mustache twirl to her.
Discuss.

First real interaction with Sixty in my opinion that doesn't really apply pressure to them but engages in them a discussion that has enough room for multiple answers whereas Thor interaction with other players has already been pointed.

Hurm. Looking over stuff Cerulean is actually obv. town unless Piggy is scum.
Cerulean can still answer my questions though because the slot strikes me as pedantic and it will amuse me.

I noted this earlier in my catchup post, he goes from "rattling their cages" and having issues with their known methods to rethinking that their actions are obv. town and stating as such. This was after the Ceru pressure he was trying to apply realistically did not go anywhere.

Equi voting piggy to L-1 with minimal explanation or force. That clear enough?

~Mehdi

Except for it being a scumtell - yes.

Let me flip the tables, Thor. Why is this not a scum tell because Mehdi and I both agreed that it was not a town motivated action in our opinion when she made that vote.

I have a snippy and rhetorical question to about this specific post but then I feel like I would be stooping to your level.

What does this have to do with Absta?
I'll toss in 'beard' if you like. Heck, I'll toss in this quoted reaction if you like that too. Happy?

As I said earlier this type of post is the not really engaged Thor that I mentioned and Piggy first pointed out.

He is using very little justification for voting Voided and the justification that he is using is hardly anything that I would call "aggressive" or thought provoking.

Uh-huh.

Let's lynch Absta or Voided.

Is this the pressure and aggressive behavior that you were talking about recently Thor?

Because quite frankly I am not seeing it. :\

And some knowledge is no knowledge with meta - you either have knowledge you will claim awareness of or you don't. You are citing him as scummy for things I have seen him do as town and wanted to see how you defended it - and you backed off.

That is splitting hairs and you know it. Noting this for further reference as well.

These types of posts are unnecessarily argumentative and again go to my point that Thor is subtly trying to undermine legitimate, albeit weak reasons against people.

I already explained my dislike about the cluelessness and how it tied into the hypocritical stuff in my catch up.

@Cerulean - of course the case is shallow, it's built off RVS, how magical and deep can it really get? What does it being shallow have to do with anything? The question is whether or not it makes sense and shows scumhunting motivation from Sixty and scummy motivation from Piggy.

Here he is passively defending Sixty about their case and still continuing to argue with Cerulean.
I feel like the amount of disappointment and stress he was feeling with Cerulean he would have been much more frank.

How does it show the appearance of scumhunting but not scumhunting?

This is in the same line of Piggy's questions that you don't really seem interested in the game. Thor is defending things and people's actions that he himself is guilty of in order to make himself look more protown.

Question: You are familiar with active lurking and the loose derivatives it can produce, right?

Note to self - Post 206

What came of this?

242 More of Thor acting engaged while not really contributing his answers to Voided don't seem to further the discussion, instead they stagnate it and he passively pushes N.

I skipped it because Cerulean is obv. town so I don't see much value in reading a case on them.
You should tell me your read on Voided though.

Again, is this the pressure that you were referring to?

Also, this is an indirect application of that "ignoring" trait I noted earlier with N about the scum ignoring things because of perceived towniness.

Lastly, love how ceru is obv town when not too long before they were worth voting. Sure read changes happen, but going from one side to the complete opposite in a couple pages is off.

@Ceru - I'm not so sure on Sixty, but with all my experiece with them thus far (one) I may or may not be any good at reading them. Personally I'm thinking they're town here, but it's just beard at the moment.

Classic scum move right here. Keeping the door open for a change in read later if push comes to shove and a read change has to be made as well the obligatory comment about Sixty and the weakening of his own reasoning so he can make any change that much easier.

And, what, you can't give a two sentence summation of the Ceru case? It must be bad then.

Unecessary dismission of Jesse's case. Not all people are as articulate and precise with your words as you are. Some people actually try to explain their dislikes of people's playing rather than saying "beard" or "no grok, sir"

338 This post directly relates to Voided and I think I have an interesting explanation for Thor's habits.

As scum in Paranoia there were people who announced suspicion on me but I a) kept them alive, and b) mostly ignored them except for comments that I could not ignore.

Thor has not been paying attention to what Voided has done he doesn't even notice the vote from Voided onto Thor and quickly catches his misstep by making this post.

Thor is passively pushing the Voided wagon while simulataneously saying that is active aggression when it really isn't and he isn't even focusing on what his scum read is saying.

I would say that will depend on the flip - I currently lean yes though.

...yes.

This is an awkward interaction with Sixty and it is one of the few because Thor's otherwise activity has been engaging with other people and mostly ignoring Sixty other than the early Cerulean questioning about his opinion of Cerulean. Without prompt he mostly ignores sixty.

I really don't think you'd have been online discussing 'okay quick hammer' there at all. Really think it was just a Vi alone decision.

This feels kind of like a knockout to me.

Thor never really acted surprised about the hammer that I would expect coming from town especially one where he thinks the person doing the weird action is town.

Then once pressure has been applied and someone vocal has established a norm, he agrees with them. Later on when he says he's been pushing the N wagon as a test that's also off when on day 2 he wasn't treating sixty as a big scum read either (and if that's a reaction test as well how does not scum reading sixty help you in any way?)

I'll agree the explanation leaves me feeling skeevy towards them though - specifically how awesome their death might be and also that they didn't really try to get other people on board with their plan *prior* to enacting it (besides a maybe if you squint a bit - semi conversation with me about absta...sorta) I think that's the part that bugs me - as a town plan they should have gotten people on board and *then* quickhammered.

Nothing too concrete that he dislikes about them. Other than a general course of action that didn't really make sense now that he is finally being tied to a read on them. Back in Reverse Mafia Rudex he's willing to argue with them a lot originating over their plan but here when they have a plan he doesn't really think on it much himself.

Thor reasoning behind the vote? In your words I don't grok it.

Am I allowed to just say 'beard' again?
You should sheep me though.

I was starting to think the third could be Thor, because he hadn't called me scummy yet (he always seems to - okay, in the two completed games we have together he did), but he just voted for me so that's all okay.

I'd hammer Sixty, but I want them to come in and make some more incriminating posts and hopefully out their buddies for real.

So 513 looks awesome to you?

or b) he’s your scum partner.

All rapid posts that serve really no purpose other than to show that Thor dislikes the reasoning in those posts or potentially finds them scummy.
Again, the vote on N and the reasoning for beard are all copouts. It also shows more of instead of giving more reason to get people to agree with him (one man doesn't make a lynch) he just weakly shows dislike.

Yeah, Absta is likely town.

Are we lynching N yet - feels like we were lynching N.

Was absta replacing out the final thing that made you feel that slot town? Also nice how when you barely mention him before you reach likely town (last mention was town depending on lynch of voided with assumption of voided scum).

Or vote N. That is also an option.

I think this is a ploy from Thor in order to make himself look better after Sixty flips because it would be bad for a partner of Sixty to not vote them at this juncture.

Basically, it is so bad scum especially of a high caliber would not do it and thus that makes it a good thing to do. Kinda channeling hoopla logic about the suboptimal turning optimal (yeah the reaction reasons still feel like a weak explanation).

I think Piggy and N are both likely town.

Where did this come from?

@Piggy - correct me if I'm wrong, but your scum case on me is that I pushed "confirmed town" instead of pushing your lynch? Because I would think you would find someone starting a counterwagon to you to be the definition of a town tell.

I really can't explain this well so I'll just use Thor logic I mean beard. Although that is more like chin hairs for me but...

Chin hairs because this looks similar to his actions in the Newbie LyLo scum game he linked.

E. I love that you don't seem to grok why I pushed on N like I did. I barely even feel I should need to justify this until you actually do enough work to grok maybe why I was pushing on him in an odd way - I was even dropping funny hints about it to Ceru when she was grumping at me. My current scum read is Jesse, I'm pushing for his lynch by voting him and asking others to vote him and explaining why I found him scummy from yesterday and the transition to today - I didn't exactly do it hyper subtle either, I kinda flat out stated all that information when i voted him...so...?

C. That seems an indictment on other people more than me. If no one asks for my reasoning other than what I provide that's not my fault.

Can you ever just be straight with people?

Were you voting him to see what Jesse was doing?

I like the trap laying and obersvant play you claim you are doing but that is definitely not the impression I am getting.

No... you've used beard a fair amount of time.

What other reads? Who are you claiming I haven't offered a read on yet? Because I'm pretty sure I've done everyone in the game.

This was something I was discussing vaguely with Mehdi while I was on my intermitten activity the past 5 or so days.

I have an addendum ... Other reads in that *you* have given reasoning for.

1. I don't think it does leave a hole - I was certainly pushing the N lynch harder than anyone else pushed any lynch besides Sixty - and only Ceru was pushing that case harder than I was pushing N.

As I stated earlier, although I fear I may have gotten my chronological order and time frame confused (fuck no sleep) was that really what you would consider pressure?

It certainly did not look so and it certainly looked like empty words designed to feign activity. Which follows with how you're n push was stronger then a lot of the other pushes that day.

I'll admit my clear of N is soft, but I'm not sure I buy that 'let's have him talk' comment as really likely to come from a buddy.

Thor reasoning behind the vote? In your words I don't grok it.

Am I allowed to just say 'beard' again?
You should sheep me though.

I was starting to think the third could be Thor, because he hadn't called me scummy yet (he always seems to - okay, in the two completed games we have together he did), but he just voted for me so that's all okay.

I'd hammer Sixty, but I want them to come in and make some more incriminating posts and hopefully out their buddies for real.

Is this the post that you buy as not likely to come from a buddy? Does that face not imply dislike? Nice contradiction there.

No, I disagree - the problem is you thinking I had to. Clearly I didn't.

You said it wasn't your fault that other people didn't ask about reasoning yet when Mehdi does it is a problem? What sort of Catch 22 are we playing here Thor?

Seeing as how I've voted a number of unflipped players who is to say?
Also, I easily could have been on the obv. wagon yesterday since I called it the day before, but...yeah, I was doing other stuff.
This is a meaningless point though.

By calling it do you mean your posts about Sixty's vote being skeevy?
And you twisted Cerulean's words to flip it so that you can't be wrong when it was obvious what they meant by that post. I forget what it is called but there is a term for it - where you believe that you can do no wrong.

Could you just dump your notes on everything? I'd like to see your thoughts on stuff.

Can't we just lynch him now?

I will agree that your pushing of Jesse is much more than your other "pushes" this game and that it does look thought out but again you're just being dismissive.

I am really trying not to sound like a broken record about Thor but its the truth of what I feel and it is what Mehdi tried to explain that Thor decided to "eat". I am hoping I am coming off better with the explanation

Oh woe unto me for posting in another game first.

Eh, I'm fine with the reasoning.
Deadpool is a bit of a twit in his conclusions.
We do Jesse tomorrow if there is a tomorrow though.

Unvote: Jesse
Vote: PiggyGal

I'm literally reading Thor's iso and I do not see the immediate reasoning for Piggy voting other than thinking it could work and that this may end the game while calling Piggy's votes derptastic. Especially when piggy was town not with little change in the read given since then.

Because I saw the chance for further scumhunting by not pushing Sixty.
I did not see that happening to the Piggy conversation and wished to move past it to the Jesse conversation.

This needs expanding although it just follows how day 2's n push wasn't as hard as he made it sound and is connect to the last quote's problem.

The last few things that Thor has pushed I don't feel the need to comment on because they are nitpicking over things. However, I did notice that Thor said Bussing does not equal distancing or something around that matter. I'm tired.

Thor, did you mean in the specific scenario that JT mentioned? Or did you mean that as a general thing?

~M (most of the case again being OS)

[Soul2277]

Just want everyone to know that I'm not going to be posting today. I'm going to have thanksgiving at a famil friends house and we are leaving very soon.

However, I want to know something. JT (I forget which head) said that my activity checks out.

What exactly did you mean? I don't know anyone from MS in rea life so I'm curious how that "checks" out?


Happy Turkey day!

[Soul2277]

We only use doc and I'd say like... 40/60 for OS/Mehdi content.

And I put by far more time into the Thor case.

That saddens me it didn't even make you reconsider.

[Soul2277]

Length was honestly dependent upon iso length. Thor's written a lot more and the way OS wrote it was by starting with reading the entire iso and commenting every time he thought thor did something strange/scummy.

At this point is just reaffirmed our own suspicions on thor and with the n case being done we're pretty confident that's the scum team and are fine with both being lynched.

As for has OS ever written that long I know you've searched it, but if you haven't found it I know he mentioned his longest past walls were written in his first lylo as town (although he said that before he'd finished writing).

~M

[Soul2277]

It's recommended reading for everyone.

1/2 is really the most I could call meta things and that feels pretty high. And yes you can respond to it with something better then I'm wrong. It's conclusion based, so what reply to the conclusion we made and show how that's weak or wrong (JT has done a better job responding to your case then you have).

~M

[Soul2277]

1) Attacking Ceruleans reasoning for town reading him in Post 241 feels like a minor town-tell, not sure the scum motivation for trying to kill the town read on them. 2) His backing down of suspecting Piggy in Post 533 and Post 647 with a partner lynched as scum he'd need whatever mslynch bait there is and him backing down on his scum-read on Piggy saying that Sixtys case on them makes him waiver would be anti-productive when he could easily just continue to pretend that he thought she was still scum. 3) His 'fake scum claim' in Post 922 if this was his first game as scum ever not sure he'd be so ballsy to say something like that.

And as for this:

1. It's pretty easy to fight a town read as scum. I think I've done it before and honestly I've heard that same town tell brought up before more then once so it's not really something I consider more then null (I've actually seen an argument for why would town bother shutting down a read on them even if it is for the wrong reasons).

2. I'll give you that although I think it was mainly just trying to separate from sixty.

3. Fairly weak town tell and it really isn't something that's enough for me to change reads on him.

~M

[Soul2277]

Thor, I could wall reply you back, but I don't really see a lot of point for a case that big. If there's something specific you want to respond to sure, otherwise I'll pass on doing text wars with you of that size.

Quick question why was there a dislike scummy face when we said one thing you did felt town?

1) I find his change of read change on Cerulean from voting them to calling them obvtown from re-reading their play in Post 136 to be a town-tell, think he'd have been considering parking his vote for longer as scum, especially if the wagon alternate wagon at the time was on Piggy-Town.

2) I think him asking Piggy for a town-game where she's been lynched in Post 78 is a minor town-tell.

3) I think his catch up method of reading through, responding to some and then doing the rest later while noting for himself where he was up to such as said in Post 231 is more likely to come from town, think scum would be using the QT for stating where they're up to or where to catch up from.

4) I think the manner in which he goes 'got the opposite read off it' in Post 242 and asks for you to get together, discuss it and post both sets of opinions to be something that is fairly town motivated, I know as town I try and understand how a hydra is thinking not just together but individually so you can judge if the conclusions they've got to at the end make sense given their individual thoughts and conversation had.

5) I find the "If he flips scum I'm obvtown" comment in Post 362 about Voided to be genuine and it's something I often think when lynching a scum-read.

6) I don't think his Post 387 is him talking to partner in-thread, think them blitz hammering would have been discussed in the scum QT.

7) I think his whole play of voting N to see who would join him is massively massively town in thought process, he showed that he did suspect Sixty and knew that an N lynch wasn't going through so him pushing a 'counterwgon to save Sixty' cannot be the motivation for his move meaning that as scum either he planned the entire gambit of push someone else, then push whoever joins him which I don't think is the case. Especially not with the amount of flowing that occurs in the whole thing. I actually consider that whole situation to be a really really strong town-tell.

8) I found his whole Post 1125 to be genuine even though I think his opinion on partner hunting is wrong in this game.

1. Mentioned that in the case as a scum tell.

2. Connects to his strange lack of dislike or preference for meta while still using it. Although his response to that part was decent meta wise the way he's treated it has still been strange overall.

3-5. Sure for all 3. None of which I agree is strong though.

6. The problem with your both scum will bus is that your only scum suspect on the wagon was me.

7. Same as 1's response.

8. Mainly find that right now it's his only option. If he scum hunts for teams he's going to get himself or his partner lynched the next day. By scum hunting only based on players it's easier to get past that.

Lastly while not mentioned the best case for thor and n is they must be scum if I'm town (assuming that PoE worked). Jt what's your current read on me and how does it compare to the read on thor? Both of us can't be town unless scum team speculation is off by a lot.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Since OS felt like commenting on it when he read your iso (in other words ask him why that specific one).

How dare Thor question weak reads!
Sooooooooo scummy!

Yeah that's the point. Great to see you see it too. And it's not the fact you're question weak reads, but it felt like you were trying to remove weak reads.

You're right, the push on N, in retrospect, looks disingenuous, forced, and not well supported.
Weird.

I honestly don't know whether this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it's sarcastic sure you've said it was a reaction test, so you're also giving it was a really weak reaction test too?

Well...other than to say how the concept obviously came from a non-town standpoint, yeah, I totally didn't address it.

There's a difference between the amount of arguing you had with sixty that appeared after their plan in mafia rudex to the amount of arguing in this game. That's the point.

I disagree with your ability to read between the lines.

Want to expand on this?

That's a couple of the more noticeable things I disagree with.

~M

[Soul2277]

I did. And asked him to remove it, but he disagreed saying he wanted to put it in there since the tell itself wasn't bad and he was trying to just write as he read (I modified other parts while he checked too) and found it meaningful to not only comment on scum tells (if you need more there the again ask him since it wasn't a point I spent hours arguing). I didn't care why it was that particular town tell.

1. Discrediting weak reads is scummy not questioning weak reads and you're posts then felt more like they were trying to discredit then understand.

2. You didn't intend it to be weak and it ended up that way would be a better motivation. Considering it's part white flag I could see scum not giving up so quickly on sixty.

3. Arguing was a bad word choice there. It's just the tone of the disagreement feels different. There you were more aggressive towards the plan, but here not so much.

4. I disagree with not treating sixty as scum more would help the gambit.

~M

[Soul2277]

1. Yup. It's just how you see it.

2. Ockham's isn't always right, but I think this one's at least understood.

3. I honestly had to read back to remember the context of the argument, but you're point on sixty not being there isn't true, since when sixty mentioned that plan they were still walling. They stopped shortly after that.

4. I'll drop this just because the bigger problem isn't the gambit (which I still think you just decided to call it that later on instead of saying weak push elsewhere) is that it was on N just makes things strange. It becomes a bigger argument if N flips town (although that'd also mean one of my strong town reads is scum), but right now that just requires multiple assumptions to make sense.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Dead lack of reading isn't that bad (and I find it to be a weak town tell under doing anything that isn't really anti town just not normal and saying it). Forming reads based only on what's been said after you joined is doable. I think thor or some other player has said something similar in an MD thread.

The last part of that doesn't affect slime's alignment at all.

Slime has the last page helped you any and what have you read exactly? Just the last page up to here or part of page 1, etc?

~M

[Soul2277]

Slime are you here? And:

"Slime has the last page helped you any and what have you read exactly? Just the last page up to here or part of page 1, etc?"

~M

[Soul2277]

Post fromOs
Tonight

[Soul2277]

Thor remind me why N is so trusted? And continuing how slime's low interaction is much better then n's continued tendency to lurk (or at least try to give minimal). You're reviewing your dead read over one main thing, but after having me and other people showed continued suspicion on n elaborating on why you trust him more would be useful. Although his connection to you has been brought up he's never really talked on it either?

~M

[Soul2277]

Progress.

Why is he more trusted? What in others is worse then him and can you clarify you're read then? And I'm pretty sure you've called him town in the past.

Thor + Me doesn't work. Thor + Jesse works even worse. Thor + Dead/Ceru/JT requires one of them to be scum. Thor + N doesn't have a problem so it is the only pair you fit in. That's all the connection means I'm just referring to how he hasn't really commented on it at all.

N you just posted and still didn't respond. What's your opinion on thor?

~M

[Soul2277]

I dropped the gambit argument because day 2 is strange for your pair. It'd be distance from N and then still later call it a gambit.

And thor want to explain Me + Jesse?

~M

[Soul2277]

Maybe because I'm not dumb and I realize I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I didn't hard defend jesse right now or do something similar. Do you really think I was scum with jesse wouldn't be defending him more right now or trying to kill the belief of that as a team that could exist. Essentially I'm competent enough not to let the current situation with jesse be occurring and let it continue. Or am I incompetent?

Same question. Why doesn't you and n work outside of the strange day 2?

~M

[Soul2277]

Ok. So my post last night got fucked up because internet at my school is retarded but essentially it was me having commitment issues with my suspicions of THor because after rereading his responses to the case becauseI feel there are similarities to what happened in Zach's Insane World where Thor was town and I was in a clusterfuck-Mastin hydra (lol) and town as well and thought he was scum albeit for the wrong reasons. I swear though because this means that I can't read Thor for shit even after I read his past games to get a better grasp. I'm discussing this with Mehdi but I do have two quick points that I didn't really catch earlier.

JT, if you think Absta was spoilered by something couldn't we just look at games he is in and look for common denominators? I know this is probably the worst possible way we could win but if he was spoiled (in his mind) a scumread that would be good game.

What makes you believe that JT/Sixty are scum together?

The comments that JT was making and picking up where Sixty left off with interacting with people. I do not like it when people start to line up saying "this and this" unless they have other information to say such things.

Confidence like that is why I am naturally inclined to be distrustful towards players who show it in my opinion. Although that is hypocritical on my part because I do sometimes play like that.

I believe I explained that already though?

We'll have more once Mehdi gets back from school.

[Soul2277]

Also don't do anything stupid with that spoilerage stuff. I am going to hand that off to more tactile people because as I kind have the tendency to kill games I touch or try to research.

[Soul2277]

Maybe because I'm not dumb and I realize I'd be shooting myself in the foot if I didn't hard defend jesse right now or do something similar.

Do you really think I was scum with jesse wouldn't be defending him more right now or trying to kill the belief of that as a team that could exist.

Essentially I'm competent enough not to let the current situation with jesse be occurring and let it continue. Or am I incompetent?

Yes because when people are trying to narrow down pairs you would certainly be incompetent to not defend your buddy

do you even lift?

That was half of it (and you can explain to me how neither pushing on him a lot or protecting him a lot is wise in this situation if he was my buddy). Not sure what the last line means.

Thor what's your N read independent of Jesse?

Echoing thor's interest in hearing dead's full read on N.

~M

[Soul2277]

I want your read of him independent of anyone. Last town reasoning was with jesse scum he wasn't likely a partner. Beyond he hasn't done much what is your read on him.

And OS's next post should answer your questions (well when he get's on next today).

~M

[Soul2277]

Quoting yourself if I missed your read on N that wasn't he's useless/weak or some association would be nice.

~M

[Soul2277]

Also a shallow one which is why I wanted more on it.

~M

[Soul2277]

Do you mean my own mind?

As for I could be bad scum that really goes back you should be able to tell me (since pretty sure reg's read at least some of my scum games to decide that himself).

~M

[Soul2277]

Ignoring thor/n I don't really mind a lot of his play (what exactly day one did you find scummy for him since while annoying he did show quite a bit of thought). I think slime made the slot worse, but I'm more convinced in other scum reads (although OS isn't as sure of thor scum as before and he can explain that later). Question, what did you think of him before slime replaced him?

~M

[Soul2277]

Thor there's a difference between everything you do that looks pro town is wifom and that one thing you did with N is wifom.

Next, JT if you've solidified our read then you should be able to vote (2 lynches left with three possible scum according to you and one of the three can't pair up with the other two).

Ceru if you're not confident in any scum reads is there town reads you're confident in? I disagree with the compromise theory (partly because how do you get compromised in a mountainous game without a modkill happening or force replacement) although I find the if absta's scum he was likely in a good position so the replace out wasn't likely scum motivated.

As for the thing I referenced I can't elaborate on it much since OS understands it more than I do, but one other thing he found interesting in Thor's play feels reminiscent of his play in a game OS was part of the mastin where he was town. Dismantle everything systematically with some tonal change.

~M

[Soul2277]

If he had he would have posted a response.

And the difference is saying one town looking action was done for wifom is not the same as saying all town looking actions were done for wifom.

~M

[Soul2277]

1. All I'll say is the next time he makes a long post it'll be included.

2. Since disagreeing on one likely town behavior doesn't equate to disagreeing on all. Ceru wasn't using it on all of your town actions (which I'd be curious on hearing you elaborate there).

~M

[Soul2277]

Dead who'd you be willing to vote for besides N? Thor works too.

P-edit: What'd did I miss? Sure that reasoning could be used to nullify all of you're town looking actions, but it hasn't.

~M

[Soul2277]

I quite like that method glancing at it. The town read question still applies, but that'd be nice too Ceru. Mine's pretty clear (essentially the same swapping soul with JT and moving the current JT up a bit and swapping it with you).

And thor answering my could I hear you're other town actions would be one way to respond to it. Ex:

K, you don't trust that one town action because it's a strange case. There's also actions a, b, and c for why I'm town.

Done.:p

~M

[Soul2277]

Ceru is there a difference between OS's inactivity and F-16's inactivity?

~M

[Soul2277]

Ceru quick opinion on N/thor? Would you vote either soon?

~M

[Soul2277]

That's the blunt version. I'll lynch either in a heart beat right now if we can just get one of them lynched. If we were suspecting town a ton then maybe the lynch wouldn't be stalling so long.

P-edit: Don't be like JT. Reads revealed won't kill you. That and who's jesse's slot scum with again (other then me if you still suspect me)?

~M

[Soul2277]

Faraday I was referring to how you two were also being conservative with your vote.

And I couldn't. Remind me who's Jessie's partner? Supposedly the only one is myself. Knowing my alignment hurts my desire to want him lynched.

~M

[Soul2277]

I grok that it was "sarcasm, lulz" but...why say it?

If you understand that was for sarcastic effect, then that was why it was said.
You've played with Piggy. She says stuff like that just to say stuff like that.

Have you ever seen that crying .gif she sometimes posts? She *made* that if that helps you understand her personality any better.

I neither prefer or dislike meta.
It's suspect that I use meta.
I don't think you actually know what 'neither prefer or dislike' means. Because, hint, it doesn't mean 'refuse to use...or 'dislike'...in fact it means I don't dislike it...derp.

Bleh I should have worded that better.
What I meant is that you have no opinion on the use of meta either way, that is true, but you have also said you think meta is normally not applied correctly, and then you go and use meta.

I didn't like the fact that while you don't agree with others using meta due to their habit of misusing but then used your own analysis of meta. Again, when I was reading the iso I felt it reinforced the undermining undertones I was getting at.

From the town's resounding "not quite" I guess I was wrong. :\

Absolutely.
The ability to use it is so narrow and constrained as to be laughable. Meta is tough enough to work with actual knowledge, much less derp half-knowledge.

I guess this is a follow-up, do you think that you *know* Piggy's meta to make that previous comment?
Agree to disagree about the N thing considering divergent play has to have some explanation and so far no outside influence has been acknowledged.

Because either the conclusion was scumhunting, or was just mud slinging, and I wanted to know which. It's a pretty complicated and new edge scumhunting method.

I'm not "groking" this Thor but I think this is because we play vastly different games.
Are you saying that scum cannot scumhunt? My interpretation of Piggy's post was "You look like you are scumhunting by asking questions, but you don't care about their answers"
Does that clarify anything for you?

Mehdi said you had a really big problem with this point and all I can say is... deal with it.

No. I don't present my cases to be entirely for myself and I like to say things to see others' opinions on the matter. This was one of them. I felt your other questions were smarmy whereas this one was more blunt and to the point which is why I felt it was town. I'm sorry I can't quantify the reasons more to feelings but that's just what I feel. So...

I'm aware you're attacking me here.
I don't understand how or for what reason. It just looks like sturm and drang.

I'm saying "I [Oversoul] am not putting more into the word suggests. You [Thor] were the one who made a post about it."

That would be in Post 85.
Good ISO work.

Actually... yes. I finally tied you down to something definitive.

However... post 85... point still going whoosh way over my head.
All I see is a comment to Cerulean about them not reading that you already commented on Sixty's case.

Also, so sassy.

That should be your title. *shrug*

And is so scummy too - you'll explain that eventually, I am sure.

Two words.
F.
U.
Wait. Two letters.



And there is a reason why I find that scummy.

Or because I got a town read on them and announced as such.
I'm crazy like that.

Crazy? No.
Convenient? Yes.
Suspect? Yes.

It isn't something I'd expect from you as a player.

The thing is, that's like an elementary scumtell - so much so that scum avoid it like the plague.

Which is exactly why scum would do it, especially if you are a confident scum player and have plausibility on your side. The plausibility in this specific case? WIFOM that it is so scummy not even scum would do it.

Yes, reactions can be gained but aren't those also inherently helping scum? In my opinion yes as it allows scum to feel the waters of what will be accepted and what will not be accepted by the town in the future. It is essentially a litmus test of how far they can go with scummy actions.

Worked to get Voided lynched, so...yes.

so much rage.

How dare Thor question weak reads!
Sooooooooo scummy!

How dare Oversoul express discontent with Thor!
Soooo stupid!

(although that last bit may be true, I haven't been tested)

Actually - that would be actively defending Sixty - I called out Cerulean for questioning the case and said I thought the case was good and also claimed the case was based off my thoughts.
Good ISO work.

I think by this point since you've made so many snide comments about my opinions it is clear that we definitely do not see eye to eye and that I have different expectations to you.

Active and passive are yet another difference in opinions. But either way you have still proven my point and you don't deny as such except to try and undermine my work with "Good ISO work."

Active Lurking - posting without any real content in order to keep activity physically up
Active Lurking (1) - posting questions that really do not contribute to discussion/scumhunting
Active Lurking (2) - posting good questions without any follow up

At this point I think I just walked into a trap and you are going to word lawyer me.

When I did my second section of catchup I started from Post 206.
Good ISO work.

I just want to see you say smurf at this point because honestly....

FUCKING FUCK THOR

Stop being so god damn degrading to me because I misunderstand your fucking cryptologic text that I need a mother fucking cipher to use.

No - it isn't. Dear gawd, that's a terrible point.

Do you think slowly changing your read is bad then?

Except - it's quite valid.
Y'see, all this silly "case" It's not a case.
The case (thus far) is "Thor is dismissive of others, changes his reads in awkward ways, soft defended Sixty, and is active lurking through pointless questions."
That's the case.
This is 'examples' or, if you wish 'proof'.
Big difference.

If you boil everything down to this level of simplicity sure. Why not.
What would be in your opinion the pointless questions?

That's the closest thing I've seen to a scum case on me thus far.
I disagree with your definition of 'passively pushing'

and why wouldn't you?
You've disagreed with me on literally every other single fucking point. And you don't even deny the most important part of that point's validity.

At this point I think Thor's responses speak for themselves and for those of who read my original case you will see my point.

I'm not spoilering this.

But...'meh, I disagree with you' is probably the core answer to everything except phrased in different witty and sarcastic ways.

Pretty fucking much...

Anyway, I'm on the precipice of very troublesome times and I am contemplating replacing out and having Mehdi fly this plane solo.
School has become a jumbled mess that I really only see myself getting hurt more from and to top it all of my family dog of over a decade has passed away and the last thing I fucking remember doing before leaving to go back to college is yelling at him for peeing on my rug.

So ya. That's where my life as it right now.

Also, side comments and shit.

Absta potentially replacing out for spoilerage problems would almost definitely mean he inadvertently discovered a scum member's identity because at that point it would break the game. Finding a town member's idenity would not be as detrimental but more likely and I don't know if he would make comments like that if he thought he found definitive town. So I do think there is potential easywin if we can look at his interactions but that is up to the ethics police whehter it is right to continue searching or not. So far, I haven't found anything.

Another thing, why did Jesse replace out? From what I saw, he just... flaked.
Is that normal for him? If it isn't I find it suspect because that is after he was pushed for his notes and then he refused saying the core of his gameplay would be ruined... when earlier he said he had been playing on alts.

Why would it matter if Jesse's play was ruined if this was one of his most recent games on that account in a long time? He can always deny being someone on an alt and get away with it. Replacing out unless it was a real life reason seemed suspect because of that weird inconsistency with the fear of others "knowing" his play when he primarily played on alts where no one would know him.

Still looking into Zach's insane world for more information
OS

[Soul2277]

JT I know there isn't anything super major breaking me/jesse as scum, but can you explain how we work as a scum pair? (yes I remember the poe analysis, but since then has anything affected that team read).

And CES what was the point on the Vi question?

~M

[Soul2277]

And following on the fos question why not vote JT if you suspect him (and if ceru is actually a bigger suspect explain how they make any sense as scum)?

~M

[Soul2277]

Whether I'm boring or not I still want my questions replied to.

~M

[Soul2277]

So do dead + ces work? Sure they do, but that doesn't mean it's a great reason to continue that suspicion (although the real problem is disagreeing on thor town) if you think he can't pair up with any of the scummy players.

CES why answer faraday's questions (a person you suspect), but not mine?

~M

[Soul2277]

The same reason why you're arguing for any town reads. I don't think jesse's slot is scum so having you suspect them less is good.

~M

[Soul2277]

Maybe in response to post 1496?

The problem with that is who n is voting right now and the amount others have shown suspicion for jesse.

~M

[Soul2277]

I'm town since faraday says so. Self meta helps too (well the fact I've yet to see that meta argument against me backed much at all). For reasons you've stated yourself and dead has stated. I think that's a good enough reason for me being town.

Ceru how's the reads coming along now that CES has replaced slime?

And faraday do you think N (who this would be his second scum game) would be that reckless? If not we can say no to n and jesse scum and move along.

~M

[Soul2277]

Can Jesse be scum with someone besides N (and I'm excluding myself). Main reason I eliminated him was based on pairs, and seeing that as a somewhat more viable pair hurts him but if there's only one pair he fits and n is in two n still works better for me.

~M

[Soul2277]

So what else is it called when two scum fos a the 3rd scum? You're pretty much entering a semantic argument unless there's some big difference there.

~M

[Soul2277]

And how was that a common opinion? I think I was one of the first to trust absta.

~M

[Soul2277]

Misunderstandings should be easy to clear up. So reply.

~M

[Soul2277]

Why do you think N is scum? And vote wise? Along with is there some other reason you think I'm scum?

~M