Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[gorilla]

Hi

[gorilla]

I'm hoarding all my posts this game so their value goes up

Minting an NFT of this post, taking bids now

[gorilla]

A game. It is happening. Not gonna be able to be around tonight. Please give me an interesting thread to read upon my return. Thanks!

VOTE: Lukewarm

Let's put him to E-1 for when he comes back, that'll make it interesting.

its literally in the setup post as an example that there won't be an Iambic-Pentameter Post Restricted role. that's clearly why he's doing it lol. sorry to ruin the joke but stop wasting posts speculating on this

Was certainly a good way to find out who didn't read the rules. Unfortunately I can't twist not reading the rules into an alignment tell.

[gorilla]

Also, I'm squinting my eyes at 50. Especially if Datisi gets townier.

What do you mean?

[gorilla]

I'm not sure I have actual thoughts on Kovu dropping a reads wall on page 4 but I admire the spirit. Just don't wear yourself out, kid.

[gorilla]

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

I don't really see why it has to be

so, so, so

hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

I think he seems unbothered by the votes which suggests he has no hidden guilt, which would be a reason to feel nervous.

[gorilla]

For Val, nulltown maybe? Tako genuinely could be scum though. I can agree that the content is not great there.

VOTE: LavarManos

This feels like fake nuance.

[gorilla]

For Val, nulltown maybe? Tako genuinely could be scum though. I can agree that the content is not great there.

VOTE: LavarManos

This feels like fake nuance.

This is a strange take given they were directly asked to present reads on those two slots.

I think this would be a better point if they had made this kind of statement while just making comments on the game, and were forcing content

I'm not accusing him of forcing content. I'm accusing him of faking nuance by drawing a distinction between 2 posters who have been entirely insubstantial to this point.

[gorilla]

You think she's town for replying to things?

[gorilla]

And maybe also Bell for messing up
the count of posts that we're allowed each day.

If Bell is scum, I doubt with VPB,
Or Lavar, since they clearly knew the count
of posts that we're allowed to make per day.

For what it's worth, it was initially announced as 150 posts per game day, Bell was probably basing it off of that. I think reading alignment based information off of that is very tenuous, I don't think scum sit down in their topic and start discussing the post cap first thing.

I feel the opposite, for what it's worth.
There's almost nothing you can base them on
So they're just making things up, pretty much.
It's gonna make me want to doubt their reads
For probably a large chunk of the game.

Meh. It's the spirit that counts.


Not really thrilled with Datisi returning with a vote on marcistar.

[gorilla]

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

Do you think it means anything in terms of her alignment this game?

[gorilla]

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

[gorilla]

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

I played in a hydra with Marci a little while ago, and I made an RVS vote. She was upset with me for casting that vote. Like, openly said that I should not have made that RVS vote against someone that she was not sure that was scum -- IN THREAD -- not even saving it for our hydra chat.

So, seeing her suddenly have a page 1 RVS vote, and then double down on it, and then not be able to tell me why she even thinks it in a way that makes sense to me seemed really off.

That being said, my scum read on her has mellowed a bit since last night, but that was the major red flag that I was dealing with at the time.

The context is helpful, thanks. Didn't seem unusual to me for a townie to be pushing a gut read in RVS at first.

[gorilla]

Somewhat confused that Datisi is still the lead wagon, and that most of the votes there are from RVS. The cakez vote on him is kind of bad. I prefer the marci votes to the ones on Bell, don't get why people are hopping there.

[gorilla]

Lavar's response to 166 in 232 feels selective. He deliberately avoided responding to Kovu's main criticisms of him which seems like he's hoping to avoid pressure by ignoring it. Very hard to see town not responding to an accusation by someone they're supposedly town reading.

[gorilla]

Enchant
Fey
LavarManos
marcistar
Rhyme and Reason
SirCakez
takotsubo syndrome
VP Baltar


Scum in here, maybe?

[gorilla]

I should give some bits of the game a reread because some of it I just don’t really remember or spent much energy on interpreting.
Not that much has been sticking to me thus far.
Dunn/Gorilla/Fire/VB/Lukewarm/Bell probably town here

Also what’s the expected number of scum here? 4? 5? Never played this big of a game on this site.

the original game this was based on had 4 mafia, although that feels a bit light for a 20 player game. Possibly the Invictus mechanic is viewed as being scumsided overall even though the net effect is a bunch of extra town-directed kills.

[gorilla]

Sorry I have not been here. Been running a little thin.

Main take away from the last couple pages is that I'm pretty sure dunn is always town here. I don't think scum dunn ever makes that argument about kovu (regardless of kovus alignment)

so you're town locking dunn for the exact reasons I no longer TR him? nothing about that was related to the game at all, and where is game related content from dunn? I'm not seeing any. Feels like a really odd reason to town lock him

It was related to the game though. In case you still don't get it, I was saying I don't believe your thought process and that that makes you shady.

I'm not sure how you can argue it was not related to the game when you are basing one of your reads off of it

I don't really feel like she'd think to make up that sort of thing. Seems real to me even if it's a bit silly.

[gorilla]

Bell’s recent string of posts is very townie-like and they’re probably my strongest townread rn. Both situationally and based on their own actions they should be town.

Why do you think it's townie?

[gorilla]

Gorilla isn't saying it, but they are unhappy that someone changed their mind. It's easier to get rid of me earlier than it is to get rid of me later, because I inevitably find the time to become impossible to eliminate. If you want to kill me, it's best to go in early before I start towning it up. I don't really think other than my semi-awkward entrance (for me) that you can say I'm not really reflecting how I normally play. There's not much nuance behind what I'm saying yet, because a lot of the posts players have made, I've seen some shade of before.

I wasn't actually implying anything, just trying to understand your perspective. To me your posts didn't say a whole lot that would make me townread you, but I don't find there to be a compelling case on you and I don't townread most of your voters.

[gorilla]

Gorilla isn't saying it, but they are unhappy that someone changed their mind. It's easier to get rid of me earlier than it is to get rid of me later, because I inevitably find the time to become impossible to eliminate. If you want to kill me, it's best to go in early before I start towning it up. I don't really think other than my semi-awkward entrance (for me) that you can say I'm not really reflecting how I normally play. There's not much nuance behind what I'm saying yet, because a lot of the posts players have made, I've seen some shade of before.

I wasn't actually implying anything, just trying to understand

Meuh's

perspective. To me your posts didn't say a whole lot that would make me townread you, but I don't find there to be a compelling case on you and I don't townread most of your voters.

EBWOP

[gorilla]

Yes, please sheep your meta unto scum me.

what are your thoughts on Lava calling Enchant town cause "scum enchant would do more"

I've never seen Enchant do a goddamn thing as either alignment.

same, so like did that feel like TMI from lava to you or like what? cause that's the 2nd time I believe Lava has had tmi on people...

It certainly felt like a bullshit read.

[gorilla]

VOTE: VP Baltar

that was a pretty bad post.

[gorilla]

Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity, and is getting frustrated noone is biting?

Wants literally anyone but Bell to be the yeet.

I mean, you are correct in that she has openly stated she doesn't want to elim Bell today. That's not really a secret.

The question follows: are you postulating that they are scum together?

Because that seems like such an over the top surface-level sort of worldbuilding that means you're either putting no thought into the game at all or are scum.

[gorilla]

Enchant
Fey
LavarManos
marcistar
Rhyme and Reason
SirCakez
takotsubo syndrome
VP Baltar


Scum in here, maybe?

Like all the scum or a scum?

Don't think you ever answered this either gorilla. If I missed it, pls quote.

Yeah, because it wasn't worth elaborating on.

[gorilla]

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

[gorilla]

@gorilla - it's a pretty straightforward question. Why are you being obstinate?

Because I think it's self-evident what I meant with a little bit of critical thinking and given that you're bringing it back up to passive-aggressively attack me, I really don't care to answer. You either think you're being clever and trying to trap me or are being intentionally malicious, but in either case it's a waste of my time. Part of me says scum wouldn't be so inflammatory toward every single detractor this early on, but at this point I don't find this worth bothering with, so I'm going to do something else instead.

I try not to make assumptions about people's meanings and would rather ask "dense" questions, as Bell put it, than to take an implication as a given.

You've spent more energy not answering than simply stating clearly what you mean.

How many scum do you think are in that list? 1,2,3,4,5? This isn't passive aggressive, I actually want to know your meaning and thoughts. Christ.

Was a rough guess at a POE.

[gorilla]

I don't really get which way someone can look at the game and come out of it thinking Kovu's scum

Why are you townreading Kovu exactly? How much experience do you have with Andante?


@gorilla, thank you for answering. Can you tell me why you think Fey or R&R are scummy? I'd ask about me too, but I think your answer is "I don't agree with how VP thinks and approaches the game", which is whatever.

I don't have an explicit scumread on them, I just don't have any reason to townread them so far. Rhyme & Reason feels a little hollow with their posting, although with only 6 posts I'm not jumping to any conclusions there.

You were largely in the same bracket of "no impression/underwhelmed" until your recent streak of posting which I disliked.

[gorilla]

Do you have other reasons you townread Datisi or just this?

Also, have you played with datisi before or have any familiarity with him?

I was sort of offput by him returning with a vote on marci at the time but when I reread it I liked him in the argument more. I wouldn't say I'm highly confident in my read but he seems fine.

And no, I played with Bell and LLD here in DEFCON 5.0 but that's it.

[gorilla]

Follow up, you have a town feeling on the people outside this PoE?

To varying degrees. Of course some of it is just a loose gut feeling, because it's early. But it's just a preliminary guess, anyway.

[gorilla]

@ gorilla - Glad you brought up LLD, because that's a headscratcher when I look at your list. You say people like Fey, RR and myself landed in your PoE because we hadn't made an impression on you one way or the other, which I can understand.

But, I'm slightly confused how LLD made an impression on you (or dwlee or Val for that matter, but let's talk LLD since you have experience with them).

This is a case where Im not sure how valuable putting those reads under the microscope is because as said it's based on gut, reasons are thin, and I could easily change my opinion pretty quickly. Something about the feel of LLD disliking people putting her in reads lists with 0 posts didn't feel like something scum would focus on. Her posting was not particularly high impact but I would've anticipated her trying to make a stronger impact as scum.

Again, this is admittedly a very weak gut feeling. You're asking questions about what amounts to the wobbly grey area in the middle of my reads where I'm kind of guessing right now, so I'm not going to be able to give strong reasoning for anything. I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of asking me why someone is more nulltown than nullscum to me.

[gorilla]

I find it sort of funny when people don't just take things at face value.

I mean, why would you expect people to do that in a game of mafia?

[gorilla]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of asking me why someone is more nulltown than nullscum to me.

Mostly assessing for internal logic. I hear you that it's hard to sort people D1. It mostly piqued my interest that your PoE was so narrow at this point. Certainly much more clearly defined than I feel like I'd be willing to commit to at this point. You also gave me shit for "world building" because I flagged what I saw as a potential associative in a scum!Bell world, so that obviously makes me curious on the nuances of how you arrived at your PoE.

Well, I I'm looking at individual play right now, not thinking about who makes sense teamed with who because it's too easy to see false connections when it's this early in the game. I should hope that my my sticking a question mark at the end of "scum in here?" indicates that I'm mostly speculating rather than making a strong assertion.

As for what you were doing, it raised a flag with me because it felt like it was aimed at reinforcing the idea of Bell being scum by drawing an association with Kovu. It's the kind of thing I can see scum doing to try to assure people their push is good by discrediting a Bell defender (or to tie someone to their teammate in the event of a bus. The way you were saying it felt manipulative to me.


I admittedly don't really like the PR softclaim from Bell here.

[gorilla]

And also frankly I disliked it because I don't think it's particularly hard to read Kovu as town here.

[gorilla]

I don't know, I'm not the boss of you, I'm not voting you anyway, and I probably won't vote you regardless.

[gorilla]

no, Bell do not hardclaim, idk why gorilla is even calling out a PR softclaim, like, we're not limming bell, why is that even a thing? like, "I think this is a pr!!" how is that in town's best interest?

Uh, he's not exactly being ambiguous about it?

And also frankly I disliked it because I don't think it's particularly hard to read Kovu as town here.

Tbf, I did have kovu as +town points earlier in the game, but this whining about inactivity on a holiday weekend is getting to me as an excuse to not do much/LAMIST.

I'm surprised you'd find that town indicative.

I think the irritation/antsiness comes solidly from a desire to have the game move forward and people participate in it. I don't think she's just idly whining and is trying to read people based on what she has available.

[gorilla]

*whispering* I think Gammagooey is town

[gorilla]

VOTE: val

[gorilla]

I had actually not really felt like keepin my vote on VP last night just didn't have a place where I wanted to move it that strongly.

[gorilla]

ok moving on

read luke's val case and it's... not super convincing to me. he does tend to focus very strongly in one area as both alignments (also side note but this guy like always rolls maf based on past games lol, at least there's a lot to look at). i think he's also generally p logic-based and wouldn't really want to make as bad of a point as he did about kovu if he didn't genuinely believe it was true

maybe thats terrible reasoning, idk, not saying he's town but more that i don't think the things he's done are super AI for him to me. idk. not feeling very strongly either way here and ok to see where the wagon goes

If he's "logic-based", what do you make of 541, which shows his logic to be faulty in multiple regards?

[gorilla]

Val is probably town, I don’t think scum can synthesize the whole argument about how putting out reads is bad bc of Invictus. I disagree with it, but it’s probably genuine.

1. I think it's super easy to take the line of thinking of "If I was town I would not want to give reads" and replicate that as scum.

2. The reasoning for the reads he

has

given are sleazy.


Wagoning Cakez is fine, though. I'm mostly getting tired of Day 1.

[gorilla]

I do not like or support the votes on Meuh. I think she's been one of the more towny people in the game and the reasons for scumreading her have not been very good.

[gorilla]

This post screams scum claim to me, that vote on RR with 0 explanation, 0 acknowledgement. 0 attempt to talk to RR, that vote is SO BAD

Unexplained votes are not a scum tell. Maybe if it was a naked bandwagon vote, but evn then not always the case. Don't overreact.

[gorilla]

The latest post? It seems okay to me...
I also was annoyed by Kovu's gripes.
Although it's hard to tell from looking back
It seemed like stuff was going on, and that
She got annoyed it wasn't what she wants.

I'm over it already, but I thought fosing her for frustration was a rather shady move. As it is I think I kind of have a better sense of what VP Baltar is doing now.

It's how it goes in every game I play.
I go on V/LA; when I return
I get accused of lurking, and I ask
What people want to hear from me, and then...
nobody ever answers. Hence that line.

I can think of one reason people might be ignoring you

[gorilla]

Cakez's posts don't look horrible. Where's the counterwagon to him?

[gorilla]

I THINK I LIKE
VOTE: darisi
RN
I THINK HE COULD BE SCUM!!

It's wild af that this is marci's one and only vote all game.

Marci, do have any town games you can show me where you planted an RVS vote and didn't move it D1?

It's a fair point. I'm not sure she's been trying to scumhunt at all since the opening.

VOTE: marcistar

We can try bringing this back.

[gorilla]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: LavarManos

[gorilla]

Please.

[gorilla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

why should i vote lavar?

Hi all. 125 posts per day doesn't seem like too much of a restriction.
I actually like Fey for bandwagoning to Datisi, but don't really have any opinion on the other votes or anyone else rlly

VOTE: Meuh
I feel like you're trying to do too much out of the gate? I mean, if you're town, I don't want to discourage you from solving. But it doesn't feel natural to me at least.

VOTE: takotsubo syndrome
sorta sus that nobody has voted this slot yet

I find it weird that Val didn't reelly respond to anything Lukewarm said about him
VOTE: Val

She is here, and posting - but she is not championing me as the scummiest person in the thread lol

Nah I disagree. Feels like she has been attacking Datisi and VPB a lot. You aren't even calling her scum anymore. I scumread her recent posting style too.
VOTE: Marci

[gorilla]

Lavar feels like a scum driven counter wagon y'all I have seen no signs this dude is scum

Have you tried reading his posts?

[gorilla]

Can the people who are not on a wagon please vote for one? We have a day left.

[gorilla]

I'm really satisfied with a lavar flip. The dip after pressure is characteristic of caught scum

…I can’t believe people still say this. Haven’t you ever been embarrassed before?

It's a fucking mafia game, if someone is embarrassed by

being wrong on day 1

then they should stop playing

[gorilla]

I'm not going to pretend to be super confident in lavar being mafia (although his posts are bad) but time's running out and so is my ability to care

[gorilla]

after a quick skim I like Dwlee's 2nd and 3rd posts but basically nothing else there is good

I currently choose to embrace cheekiness for a few hours but I would vote Dwlee over Lavar too if nobody is on board with this

VOTE: Enchant

I don't feel like we...learn anything from wagoning Enchant. Basically everyone can argue it as a justifiable kill, it doesn't force anyone to take strong stances. Basically the type of player that is ideal vig fodder in regular games.

[gorilla]

GAMMA HAS LESS THAN ENCHANT...

If you're playing the game by looking at the activity overview and not actually checking for content, sure.

[gorilla]

I don't mind the votes on dwlee. Iif that wagon gets the lead I'll swap.

[gorilla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

Sure. If this forces them to participate, let's do it.

The notion of "forcing someone to participate" when we're a day from deadline is strange. I just want to kill someone.

[gorilla]

The notion of "forcing someone to participate" when we're a day from deadline is strange.

Not really? Scum are most vulnerable at the end of day.

Not my point, totally useless comment

[gorilla]

Fairly puzzled by the nightkill. I think the fact that it was on someone who had barely posted at all is likely a sign that scum are feeling comfortable. Unenthused by guessing about where scum were voting. If you want to make a case based on people having scummy reasoning for their votes, go ahead, but just saying "I think scum were/weren't on some wagon" isn't really helpful.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Dunnstral

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

[gorilla]

LLD!

Read over these marci posts and tell me what you think

Spoiler: marci posts

i don't really think this is an accurate assessment of datisi as scum at all. have you read datisi scum games at all, and if not what made you come to this conclusion?

i havent seen datisi as scum at all and im not gonna meta read

i came to the conclusion because thats just how i think hes like, he gives very much vibes like hes doubtful in his abilities all the time to do stuff, am i wrong? i thought i remembered a game where he kept doubting his reads and going back and forth on them, but am i remembeing the wrong person?

@Marci what's up with the all caps posting??

i think i did that because i felt rushed, i know one of the posts i made at work and the other one while i was crossing the street

i imagine you very timid as scum

lol.

i- i- i-
go away.....
stop bullying me...
im not timid as scum... its just when i roll scum its always against people im scared of...
tbh i just generally play timid...
BUT THATS NOT MY POINT

i actually do think ur scum, and i actually do have reasons, but tbh a magician never reveals their secrets unless people ask

I actually like Fey for bandwagoning to Datisi, but don't really have any opinion on the other votes or anyone else rlly

I like fey as well, she keeps asking questions and it seems like those questions are her trying to push the game forward so i think shes towny

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

I don't really see why it has to be

so, so, so

hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

I do not really like datisis reads!!
i dont think fey seemed scummy, i like what she posted so far she looks like shes trying to solve
i dont think gammagooey is "slight town", i dont think the posts theyve made is really like super helpful yet.
his read on me is i think datisis like the devil rn since hes not really trying to make me see the light of things (if im wrong), and instead hes just saying its scummy. i think hes trying to shut me down because its easy and he doesnt want his haters around.. it seems like more hes trying to convince everyone else instead of trying to collaborate with me...
i also *shocker here* dont agree with meuh feeling off yet, i think she hasnt done much alignment indicative yet and i think ur hating on her for her basic personality
i dont really agree with sircakez being slightly townie either..

^^ dismissing fire for not understanding a point you did not explain well, at best

how was that dismissing i was trying to talk it out

i'm not inviting, no. but i said what i find to be scummy posts from you and it's on you to try to change my view. i don't plan on begging you to explain yourself to me because i don't think you're approaching me in good faith at all.

where have you pointed something of mine out and specifically said "thats scummy"? all I can find is you responding to stuff of mine by asking shading it, but you've never specifically said its suspicious.
i think ur just trying to skirt around the truth that im the most innocent angel to ever grace this planet...

"why arent you trying to point out proof of why i have to be wrong instead?" your reasons for scumreading me are (1) i voted someone fire voted and (2) weird speculation about my personality. i have yno way to respond to (1) because that's not why i voted vpb but i'm obviously going to say that. and there are a shit-ton of other reasons why someone would vote someone in rvs to the point i don't believe that to actually be a genuine read from you. and (2), i asked you why you came to the conclusions you did about my personality and translated it into a scumread? you ignored it?

Are you just trying to make me feel small by outyelling me..? Is that ur goal devil datisi..?
why cant it be a genuine read from me? my vote was like page one, i just explained my reasons later so whats so impossible of those being actual genuine reasons? I think you just want to shade me and get me miselimated because i'm an easy target. (:
whys it impossible for u to just understand that I think that way of ur personality because i just

do

? Do you think I don't have experience talking with liars at all?

before you ask where:

LIKE I THINK THAT BASED ON THE PERSONALITY I THINK HE HAS, I WOULD THINK HE WOULD THINK NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM BECAUSE HE SEEMS LIKE THE TYPE TO BE A SLIPPERY SNAKE, AND NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT SEEM LIKE HES COOL WITH IT, AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT = LESS SPOTLIGHT = LESS DOUBTING

and i would not do this as town... because...? like if you think i as town am insecure and doubting myself, why wouldn't i respond the same way as town? like, this whole explanation goes from how you've seen me as town, making conclusions about my personality, then attributing those conclusions to my scumgame as opposed to my towngame for ??? reasons

like, the confidence and annoyance you're showing about your reads grossly mismatch the actual confidence you should have and the quality of those reads.

I think ur just assuming I have more confidence than i actually do.

ALSO, the post where you criticize my reads

i think ur hating on her for her basic personality

saying i'm "hating" on someone because i said they might be scum 6 pages into a game is a little bit over the top, no?

and a lot of your points against me are "i don't agree here i don't agree there" and it's framed as if i'm scummy but why is having different reads scummy? like, the only instance where you actually explained why i might be scum for my reads is for my read on you, and i already said my problems with it so i don't feel like repeating myself but yeah

I wasn't trying to say "having different reads is scummy" but people keep framing it as so, so I guess we'll just say whenever I reply to anything datisi posts im just pointing out a reason i scumread him :shrug:
what i was trying to do, was say i don't agree and have an ACTUAL DISCUSSION with you but guess not!!
"hating on someone" is just the way i usually phrase things like that, i didn't mean for it to be so deep of a meaning just the dislike meaning.

but what do you think about Bell since they're Datisi's 2nd highest scumread? Also, do you have another player you think is particularly scummy aside from Datisi at this point?

i dont have thoughts on bell rn which is why i dont talk about him (:: i think he is usually just more invisible than other players, i can't really deny that "bell doesnt want to be here" is a pov someone might reasonably have, but i just personally don't think that way. pressure on him rn isn't the

worst

thing, but i think pressure on others is more benefical because bell will prob just come along eventually.
maybe gorilla, i think they're a capable player whos holding back like <92, 104> i think they could easily be going harder and getting more juicy info, but it doesn't really seem like they want to do that, which scum could do that? like scum dont want the game to move forward.
maybe sircakez but thats because i don't like his starting post.

theres like more people that i wouldn't mind more content from, because i don't remember them at all, but I think thats because me and datisi stole the spotlight of the game.
i think

if

datisi is town that scums sitting back and just letting this fight happen. it would explain why i cant remember anyone else

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

so selfish....... me scumreading someone is a sign of my friendship with them obviously.... you don't want me to be friends with datisi..?

still sus of marci, a lot of that early stuff about datisi is just... i have a hard time seeing it coming from a town mindset. but also like... no offense marci, but she seems clearly new. sometimes i have a hard time understanding the thought process of newer players. and like, i agree with the points for why she's scummy, but idk, some of the people jumping on her feel a bit opportunistic? and it sketches me out a bit. probably overthinking here but whatever

rude... im not new.... im the best player ever....
who is it who feels opportunistic for "jumping on me" here?

Gonna
UNVOTE: Baltar
VOTE: Marci
Cause it seems it's gaining more steam and I dislike her dislike of Datisi's reads

well what if i dislike your dislike of my dislike of datisis reads
is it all of it that you dont like or only certain spots?

Now, could be Marci is just a townie who decided to over justify a vote and didn't really think a lot about what she was saying, but she also could be scum here. Double downs aren't always easy to read, but I don't think Marci has responded coherently to pressure, and if she is town, she could have just admitted it was kind if a bullshit vote and not actually that serious.

why would i want to keep going as scum though?

So, seeing her suddenly have a page 1 RVS vote, and then double down on it, and then not be able to tell me why she even thinks it in a way that makes sense to me seemed really off.

i dont play large games often, but when i do it sure is a party isnt it?

Is this true Marci? do you have no reads this game and just floated by?
Is that normal for you day 1?
What's different this game compared to those if not and what's the same?
What are you thinking about this game?
Who oo you think is town nd who do you think is scum?

@Lukewarm: Where is Marci in your reads right now?

I've been giving reads so clearly the devil is just blind
also how convenient it is!! he hasnt asked me for my opinions on anyone certain... which he could always do if he was ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE ME

theres been games where i just float by and just talk until i get something i feel in my soul. like one time someone told me it was sus for me to actually be serious about a game cuz they thought i was only a meme player ::(((
it depends on the sorta mood im in i think tbhs

i dont have alot of time to like type up thoughts since im at work for like another 4 hrs, and then ill be sleeping but if u have anything ur curious abt u can juat ask (:
i think gammagooey has a couple of agreeable takes but they piss me off so dont tell them i said that im not sure what i think of them tho aince the agreeable takes are v basic takes
i think kouvs town but i wouldnt trust them leading anything because theyre too emotional about things and too reactivey
balters i would say how self centered he is, i dont like that, so he scummy
fey towny
sircakez scummy, the bandwagoning is not good vibes at all
i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

idk who else exists

Also would like to hear your opinion on Lavar but he's got a reasonable amount of short posts so I think he's probably iso-able in like 20 min or less

Marci looks skittish in a way she hasn't before, but that doesn't make her necessarily scum. I think that she's a good wagon though.

Vote: Dwlee

VOTE: Lavar

Oh yeah?

This is fascinating as a sudden response from you.

You better prove that role of yours tonight or you're dying tomorrow lol

The only interesting thing about that vote is that you actually responded to it lol.

I think it's interesting you directly avoided a growing Dwlee wagon for Lavar

I think Bell/Dwlee/Marci are all +town considering Lambdadelta's posting and the invictus mechanic

Gorilla's probably right regarding the comfort factor, which makes me think this kill was in large part determined in a way to avoid scum getting invictused

Reserving comment about Bell until we know whatever is going on with his PR.

[gorilla]

What an ass day 1

I bet scum were all over the Lavar wagon the reasoning for it was so bad

I find it hard to believe that Cakez town read Lava as hard as he claimed day 1. I also didn't like the way that he engaged with the case on Lava itself.

It feels more like he is just trying hard to look like The Person Who Was Right.

VOTE: Cakez

Don't really agree, rarely seen scum take the angle of being overtly angry over a day 1 mis-elim. Think the passion is real but misplaced.

[gorilla]

What an ass day 1

I bet scum were all over the Lavar wagon the reasoning for it was so bad

I find it hard to believe that Cakez town read Lava as hard as he claimed day 1. I also didn't like the way that he engaged with the case on Lava itself.

It feels more like he is just trying hard to look like The Person Who Was Right.

VOTE: Cakez

Don't really agree, rarely seen scum take the angle of being overtly angry over a day 1 mis-elim. Think the passion is real but misplaced.

Talking shit on a townflip wagon is a pretty common scum tactic actually? What are you basing this thought on?

It reads as pretty benign comments, not "overtly angry"

Distancing from it maybe but the particular way he's going about it is inflammatory and more likely to attract annoyance because no one likes someone who bitches about a day 1 deadline elim. Scum can try to position themselves to be able to say "I was right" but it doesn't feel like he's doing it that way. I'm just loath to immediately accuse someone of white-knighting because those accusations are pretty frequently wrong.

[gorilla]

LavarManos (11) gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)

Ok, now that Bell is out there, fmpov this wagon is a bit easier to assess.

We got Bell and Datisi confirm town. I'm town. I think Luke, Fire and possibly Dunn are town (though not certain on Dunn and trusting my gut for now.

That leaves:

Gorilla
Val
Meuh
Dwlee
Enchant

My prediction is that more than one person has enchant as an invictus target, though we can talk about merits of limming there if needed.

I'm personally most inclined to lim dwlee or Meuh from that list. Gorilla isn't exactly a town read. His play feels distanced from the game in a way, and I kind of still standby my "probably one scum in gorilla/gamma", but that's not a good reason to want Gorilla today. It is enough to warrant me rereading gorillas day 1 though.

VOTE: meuh

/streamofconsciouswriting

Why do you have a townread on dunn? And more related to my last quote, what is your actual read on cakez?

[gorilla]

Making a vote on me because you think I

could

be scum with marci seems rather backwards, no?

[gorilla]

Also, your case is...a handful of posts from within the first 10 pages of the game? Seriously?


I think if you actually looked through games you'd find hundreds to thousands of instances of players having slight scumreads or awkward interactions or whatever and them not being mafia teammates. Trying to find the exact team based on interactions with 17 players alive is just terrible, terrible process and I strongly doubt you'll catch scum at a rate better than random doing it. If you actually have an issue with anything I've said, come at me directly rather than making a nebulous associative case. Your entire reasoning falls apart if marci is town, so I don't see why it makes sense to come after me - and since I know

I'm

town, it means your reasoning for marci being scum isn't very credible to me.

[gorilla]

Making a vote on me because you think I

could

be scum with marci seems rather backwards, no?

I skimmed your ISO and it's a whole lot of questions with no follow-up to look busy and for the amount of posts you've made, there's not much that actually looks like scumhunting.

I think I've been acting with a purpose for most of the game and if you can't see that, that's your problem. I was wrong on Lavar but I took a chance and swung there, still think it was an entirely reasonable day 1 kill and I'm not terribly convinced any of the other wagons on day 1 were on the right track.

I've been keeping a lot of my reads to my notes and only mentioned them when necessary, but I'm pretty sure I

have

mentioned them. However, I've also openly been bored with the game since mid day 1, so I don't necessarily blame you if I feel like I'm "not doing much". But it's still on you to actually learn to read people better, if you're town.

[gorilla]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

^still feel reasonably good this is mafia

[gorilla]

Imagine thinking sheeping a troll who is openly not playing the game and probably has <<<rand voting accuracy is a good idea. The type of player who would have been an easy policy kill back in the day.


Anyawy, go ahead and scrutinize me. What are you getting out of this, exactly?

[gorilla]

I'm not seeing any cases or moving beyond the start of the game or "actually learning to read people better". And I'm not seeing any acknowledgment that the last 3 deaths actually happened besides saying that my vote on Lavar was bad somehow.

1. Why are "cases" necessary? very few people have actually been making cases today. And the day's still young, I don't particularly see the need to dump a full reads wall as of yet.

2. What needs to be "acknowledged" about the last 3 deaths, exactly? I

have

stated a hypothesis about why LLD was killed: I don't think scum were under any significant threat yesterday, and as such I believe we should look at people who were under-examined rather than simply revisiting people who were the main wagons on day 1 (marci, dwlee - although i'm still not totally sure about dwlee). Part of that is why I'm voting you.

It looks like you're making a OMGUS pushback on me that is timed out of convenience with there being a wagon on me, rather than having any real read.

[gorilla]

Imagine thinking sheeping a troll who is openly not playing the game and probably has <<<rand voting accuracy is a good idea. The type of player who would have been an easy policy kill back in the day.


Anyawy, go ahead and scrutinize me. What are you getting out of this, exactly?

Since when am I sheeping? I already said Enchant's vote prompted me to reevaluate you, and I drew my own conclusions from there. For you to be this dismissive of it all is odd.
Enchant being a policy lim "back in the day" doesn't somehow make you less scummy, I don't care. The fact this is the angle you're approaching my vote with makes me think you're not engaging with me in good faith.

I don't think scum were under any significant threat yesterday, and as such I believe we should look at people who were under-examined rather than simply revisiting people who were the main wagons on day 1 (marci, dwlee - although i'm still not totally sure about dwlee).

You mean we should look at people like you? Like what I'm doing at this very moment? You're pretty much the player who got the least pressure on day 1

I'm dismissing it because your case against me is bad and insubstantial. It's not like there's a lot for me to respond to.

Like, what do you expect me to say here? Do you expect me to go "oh no you're right, I am scummy"? Do you expect me to go back and quote the posts where I gave reads to prove to you that I totally was scumhunting? Would that actually prove anything to you? Because I doubt it would. If I went "oh here are all my reads this game for XYZ reasons" would you care? You're not approaching me like you care about my perspective on the game, you're approaching me like you've decided you want to lim me and anything I say to you is further proof of my scumminess.

You're either town who is tunneling for very bad reasons, or scum who is sensing an opportunity to push me. Even if you are town I think the likelihood of you getting persuaded by anything I say is pretty small.

[gorilla]

I also don't like Fey's entrance today. Not sure it's necessarily a scum entrance, but I think her conclusions about Invictus and where scum kill is almost 180 on what it should be. Namely: I think that the harder someone who eats the NK is SRing someone, the more likely that person is to be town due to the high chance of them using their Invictus on scum if they're right, and how devastating that could be for the scum team within a couple of nights.

I'd like to think Fey is town, based on how they started the game basically hating me, I'm gonna assume that comes from town!ydra, and if that is scum!ydra... we're not going there

so yeah, that's how fey joined my TRs

I don't think being rude to you is an alignment tell and nothing I've seen from Fey this game is particularly towny.

[gorilla]

I think it's very interesting, like you guys are all "just invictus enchant!!" or "enchant is scum!!!" just enchant goes "Gorilla maf" and now all of a sudden everyone is like "yeah!!" like, why did you have to wait for enchant for you to actually do something?
"Since when am I sheeping? I already said..."
ummm you waited for enchant.. yeah it falls into the category of sheeping, like, sure I definitely agree with gorilla being suspicious. for sure. but this wagon coming from a town (collective unit) where many yall are actively like "enchant isn't town!!" like, that feels really odd to me, also as long as gorilla continues to be like one of the only ones actively doing anything, I'm not voting gorilla d2

For what it's worth, I think enchant is relatively likely to be town based on a few things he's said, but I wouldn't really be comfortable with clearing him because of it, and I'd pretty much always want him to die before endgame because I think he's a liability.

[gorilla]

Bell's role is kind of surprising, the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic. Still, I don't think it's particularly likely to be a scum gambit.

I feel reasonably good about the following being town: Kovu, Bell, Gammagooey, Cakez (and no, it's not just because he's voting Dunn)

So long as a handful of consensus towns can be established, I think this game is relatively easy.

[gorilla]

Sort of annoyed wishing I'd stood up for Datisi more but it's not like I could have known he'd be invictus'd.

[gorilla]

^ My opinion is similar, except I explicitly acknowledged the confidence on that read may well come from the fact you are a much better player.

But then, I see posts like 1309, and the fact you aren't reading me right pushes me to believe it's because you

knew

Lavar was town.

"you're reading me wrong so you're scum" is not exactly the most convincing of cases.

[gorilla]

I’m struggling to word this but I think it’s a dangerous assumption to think a dead person’s scumreads are clearing; there is always the potential to be shot at night the same way you can be tracked/copped/etc, but like.

For LLD specifically I’m willing for now to accept that Bell is cleared for now by virtue of his actions. Sure. Bell was one of the people she suspected and did so with more... interaction? To it. Oomph. I think it is perhaps reasonable to assume she would have shot Bell... a town clearing PR.

But why exactly in this situation would a mafia Dwlee be cleared?? Like everyone’s kind of hand waving it imo. “Cleared because scumread” is such an insane thought process to me even factoring in the mechanics.

Also because “clearing” LLD’s scumreads narrows down the POE for a wagon that flipped town D1 and that is...???

I'm not really close to clearing dwlee, I'm just not sure they're who I want to wagon right away today based on the nightkill. I do think it's notable that I townread everyone but you on their wagon but that in and of itself doesn't make me want to kill them right away. I'd rather see what they have to say today.

[gorilla]

"you're reading me wrong so you're scum" is not exactly the most convincing of cases.

"You are reading me wrong when you managed read Lavar (who appeared was being treated very similarly to me) correctly with an huge degree of confidence, so you're more likely scum than a player with excellent reads in these circumstances" is convincing, at least for me.

That's pretty bad logic. Someone can be right on one player but wrong on another. It happens all the time. People just have different perspectives.

I'm leaning towards Bell/Marci/Dwlee being less likely scum

marcistar

- Hmm... I need to reread but honestly I can't say I feel good about her at this point. Idk

I need to reread (Marci, VPB, Gamma, Dunn)

@Meuh -

Can you explain what caused your read on marci to shift? You had her as town through the end of day 1 and seemed to very suddenly decide you didn't feel good about her.

[gorilla]

A good bit of the reasoning would be against the rules to bring up which is meh

*sigh* Okay. I found it bizarre how your read suddenly turned but you weren't really pressuring her in a significant way, and were using it to go after me instead. I thought I might have been on to something, but...probably not.

[gorilla]

I change my mind, I want Dwlee gone again, that wagon d1 was good, dwlee hasn't gotten townier since
VOTE: Dwlee

Unless they wanna start actually being towny

Would be very hard for them to do so given that they haven't posted since the game re-opened.

[gorilla]

I actually cant believe there are multiple people on mafiascum-dot-net calling Cakez town because he said D1 was "ass." Legit the stupidest shit I've heard in a long time, and each time I read it, it is like space lasers in my eyes. Cakez pushed multiple confirmed towns D1 (Datisi, Bell) and was absolutely way too confident about a lavar read. That is not a reason to townread someone.

I swear it's not that simplistic. I'll maybe get into it at some point.

[gorilla]

Bell's role is kind of surprising, the ability for a player to conf-town themselves in this setup is really overpowering given the invictus mechanic. Still, I don't think it's particularly likely to be a scum gambit.

Also this might be tunnel vision but this paragraph from Gorilla's stuck to me. Scum view the game as more townsided than it is and town view it as more scumsided than it is. I think this might just be a slip of a scum mentality.
What townie reacts to Bell's claim with saying it's overpowered? It irks me

Not really. It takes just a little bit of thinking about the setup.

As it stands, we're at 17 alive. Every cycle, we get a day elimination and an invictus kill. The mafia get a nightkill. We go through this 5 times and we're left with 2 alive, and at that point either we've killed all the mafia and won or we've lost. That means we get a whopping 10 kills to get things right. In a regular game you'd get 8 - while that doesn't seem like a

huge

difference I think the extra kills are a pretty big deal.

(This, of course, is not taking into account the possibility that mafia have any sort of roles that can affect invictus kills. That's entirely possible and would balance things out but any speculation about such a mechanic would be a wild guess at this point. I'm hoping there's nothing too outrageous).

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else. Bell as (presumably) conf-town is a big step toward that goal, and is unequivocally a good thing. Make no mistake: I am happy about this! That is the reason I have mainly been thinking about who I most trust as town this phase.


Anyway, a lot has happened, I'm catching up now.

[gorilla]

I think enchant is relatively likely to be town based on a few things he's said

Can I get you to cite your work here, please.

Actually taking the time to read this properly and find this bit addressed to me: I think the thinking about the invictus mechanic in 313 is more likely to come from a town-aligned player, the sequence in 439/443 asking about bell's PR and softclaiming strikes me as wanting to know about bell's role in case he needs to counterclaim it. In general it does

feel

like Enchant is legitimately trying to make reads rather than just coasting along doing nothing, but that's a very gut feel assessment of his posting.


And this is all in sum to still say: I am not clearing Enchant. I think he should

always

die before endgame, because even if he's town his existence in the game is an immense liability. I would not put him among my top townreads. So I'm not terribly interested in getting into a lenthy debate over his alignment.

[gorilla]

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else.

This doesn't sit right with me. Have you ever played in a game that went like this?

Actually 1464 is a very weird post if you focus on it.

gorilla explains that we will eliminate during the day and then mafia will kill somebody at night, and also the invictus.

I'm not sure how that relates to what they are responding to, which is itself a response to gorilla originally saying that bell's friendly neighbor role was "overpowering" in this setup. What I'm getting at is, what's their point? How does them "explaining the setup" relate to what they said about Bell's role or to what meuh is saying.

And they end it off with what appears to be saying to figure out the seven townies players now, which doesn't make sense. And yeah Bell's role being friendly neighbor helps us but presumably they can just be killed so I do think Meuh has a point and that this stance that Bell's role is overpowering isn't a logical one.

I think it's a pretty obvious and easy explanation of the mindset behind why I was saying those things.

Frankly, I think you're panicking that I've called you out and am laying out an unambiguously pro-town strategy.

Here's the thing: I absolutely don't care if I'm one of seven most townread players in the game. I don't care if I live to endgame, and in fact I'd welcome dying before then, because I'm finding it a bit tedious (and this was prior to me becoming a wagon, before you try to get snarky). I have absolutely no fear of dying this game. Can you say the same?

[gorilla]

S_S and I are working on our reads in PT so that we don't have too much dissonance in thread, we'll post to here once it's done

for now I think we're both chill with gorilla wagon

~Rhyme

...because?

[gorilla]

You should probably actually read that post to see what I'm quoting.

[gorilla]

Game Day 1 There were several people commenting that they thought Dunn was town and I didn't think voting them would actually be helpful at all, esp. considering that you stayed a major wagon until the last 2 real-life days or so if I remember correctly, and I had a stronger scumread on you than him. I'll be happy to vote him now though, even if I don't get what changed for other people from yesterday to today on him he is still a pretty good vote imo.
VOTE: Dunn

I thought he started the game fine, I re-evaluated based on the NK and decided we should be giving more scrutiny to people who went under the radar yesterday, and he fit the bill.

nah i like my gamma vote much more
why would i jump on the dunn wagon when i have all i need right here?

might eventually depending on if dunn seems scummier than gamma but like
gamma > dunn rn imo

I find it basically completely baffling that anyone, on holistic view of their play, could think gammagooey to be a better wagon than dunn right now. Although his posting has been less frequent than some, Gammagooey has been trying to generate some level of town cohesion and making fairly decent analysis. Dunn has been lazily sniping from the sidelines and only came alive to OMGUS me. The fact that it's nearly impossible to get attention to Dunn when he's said basically nothing of value is telling.

(there's some slight worry that a lot of the people I'm townreading are townreading me. I'm wary of scum trying to buddy up to me, but I don't think that's always the case and I don't want to refuse to try to work ith anyone out of paranoia)

I mean, this is pretty much a non-case:

Spoiler:

@Marci - since you're voting me how do you feel about my not-you reads? Or my votes yesterday after it become clear that you weren't going to get elim'd that game day? Do you think I'm more likely to be scum given the flips, and/or that anyone else is more likely to be town b/c of them?

i think ur playing it safe with ur reads, enchant, dwlee, lavar were ur votes other than me, and all people who aren't making too much noise in the thread

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

this reads a bit like ur trying to buddy buddy vip balter.

also also would like to hear more from LLD & Mala before deadline, but I get that they have RL circumstances to deal with atm so they do not get placed in the category with Dunn+Enchant of "would happily throw them off an quickly moving airship"

this seems kinda fake imo since i didnt see u really try to follow up w it?

-Don't reeeeally get why Dunn's coming up now when I think he would have been imo a better counterwagon to Lavar than Dwlee was yesterday but whatever

i think this is pretty convient of u to say, as u didnt really push overly hard in dunns direction, i feel like u were more focused on the bandwagons.

its pretty clear imo that ur just hopping from easy wagon to easy wagon

- -

VOTE: gammagooey

?

hes stinky imo

Your points for him being scum are "hopping to easy wagons" and "stinky". This does not really look like a meaningful read.

[gorilla]

Ergo, unless I am completely wrong about that being a soft, in which case I expect Mala to correct me immediately, RR is as conftown

Just want to say, I think you're mayne taking this further than is reliable. There is probably an argument to be made that mala is town because of this, but I don't get the sense from reading between the lines that this is clearing info on RR. Would like that on record so there are not bad assumptions being made later in the game.

Happy to be proven wrong, but we should not assume clears on people unless we have explicit reason to believe so.

You will probably get guff for this, but I agree. If we can get multiple clears on day 2 in combination with the invictus mechanic, then the game probably shouldn't have passed review (and no, that's not scum salt).

[gorilla]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

Don't do this cheeky garbage, if you really think gorilla is scum then make a decent argument for it

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

I believe that gorilla is guilty of what they are accusing others of.

I think that their reaction to pressure felt over-defensive and made me want to vote them more. Them doubling down on their vote on me when they had little reason to and ignoring presented evidence to the contrary in reaction to my vote by saying they were "still fairly sure I was scum" was scummy.

He has not been as active in sharing reads/opinions as you make out here, and I will point out that they do seem to care a lot when they are being voted here.

I think you're telling on yourself a bit here. The way you've reacted to me voting you is to push back against me in an over the top and childish manner. I think you're upset at being called out and are making things up about me to try to make me look bad. Non of your defense is remotely compelling in any way, you posted some boring graph. I have been more than forthright in explaining the reasons for my views on the game and am continuing to try to work to put things together.

Again, I explicitly do not care if I die to elimination or invictus this game. I get the sense you very much do.

[gorilla]

@R&R

Ah, my bad. Even still, I don't think Dunn would make that post unless there was at least a grain of truth to it, so I don't think you should necessarily dismiss it.

This is oddly credulous. Dunnstral resorts to arguing like a three-year old, and your response is "hold on, maybe he has a point"?

Hello nice to meet you, my name is something underscore smart and this is my thing. Especially early in such a large game, I heavily de-emphasize scumhunting in favor of townhunting, but also just starting discussions on topics that are valuable and helping people get on the same page for things. If you're insinuating that I as scum can't/won't fake scumhunting, I assure you that isn't the case.

Okay, so who do you have as town right now?

I think it's very interesting, like you guys are all "just invictus enchant!!" or "enchant is scum!!!" just enchant goes "Gorilla maf" and now all of a sudden everyone is like "yeah!!" like, why did you have to wait for enchant for you to actually do something?
"Since when am I sheeping? I already said..."
ummm you waited for enchant.. yeah it falls into the category of sheeping, like, sure I definitely agree with gorilla being suspicious. for sure. but this wagon coming from a town (collective unit) where many yall are actively like "enchant isn't town!!" like, that feels really odd to me, also as long as gorilla continues to be like one of the only ones actively doing anything, I'm not voting gorilla d2

hard agree with all this.

Oh yeah? Quote where I called Enchant scum or said to invictus them.

You can't, I never said that. And I explained why I voted gorilla in my post above, it's not sheeping enchant or the marci-gorilla case (which I'm admittedly not sold on).

So you two are talking about Meuh then, but referring to them as town (collective unit) and implying that this is a thing multiple people are doing.

This again, just feels like arguing for the sake of arguing - "try to prove I said anything about enchant!!" is just engaging in pedantry wanting to invalidate a generalized statement kovu was making. It feels like he thinks if he disproves this specific argument that he was calling Enchant scum, it exonerates him in some way. It's trivial. It's pointless. It advances nothing. But scum like to bog the game down in arguments such as this one.

And again, I should note that for someone who allegedly believes

I

am being defensive, all Dunn seems concerned with is arguing against scumreads on him.

I find Marci's progression on Meuh suspicious.

She started scum reading Meuh early, I see no signs of that changing throughout day 1. Then she opened up day 2 dropping shade on Meuh. Then in 1375 there is not a hint of concern there that meuh could be scum pushing her. Pure confidence that Meuh is town.

She also latched onto the idea that 1030 would come from town meuh, but that came before 1240 and therefore seems unlikely to be the thing that changed her read there?

This is an interesting point, and I'm having trouble believing a lot of marci's reasoning today is genuine. Would absolutely be willing to flip her given potential associations - if she flips scum I'd feel a lot better about Luke. 1418 as a response is incredibly underwhelming - the dismissive tone and brushing it off as "progression behind closed doors" strikes me as scummy - I would figure it would be easy for a town player to lay out the exact thought process behind their read shifting.

[gorilla]

Oh wow lol

Mostly because I didn’t like your reaction to being wagoned, and I haven’t seen anything from you yet that shouted town at me

~Rhyme

On my side I'm generally just fine with wagoning anyone whom I don't townread.

That's fairly underwhelming for Day 2 but I'm largely going about the same process so I should ask: Who

are

you townreading?

[gorilla]

True. We don't need to decide right now.

I was mainly checking to see if you would be nervous signing up to be a part of my mystery pr shenanigans.

I liked your response tbh

This response, though...just feels like he's letting her off too easy? Bleh, bleh, bleh. After suspecting her on the previous page to reverse so easily doesn't sit right with me.

[gorilla]

The names that come to mind are Cakez Kovu Val Mala Dwlee Luke, in no particular order. (And Bell, of course.) I wrote this without looking at Mena's reads, but they actually sync up impressively; the only difference is he has Meuh instead of Kovu.

-Reason

can more or less agree on cakez/kovu, mala pending whatever is going on with her PR although I think her actual content is decent. Val/Luke I'm uncertain on, they have some things I like but nothing I'd hard clear them on.

Why dwlee, of all people? I don't want to hear about the nightkill, please give me something from their actual posts that is worthy of being a top townread.

[gorilla]

True. We don't need to decide right now.

I was mainly checking to see if you would be nervous signing up to be a part of my mystery pr shenanigans.

I liked your response tbh

This response, though...just feels like he's letting her off too easy? Bleh, bleh, bleh. After suspecting her on the previous page to reverse so easily doesn't sit right with me.

Her response was not scummy, and there was no hint at trying to angle for someone else to be the person I twin with.

I didn't say that it was clearing, or that suddenly I am sure she was town.

Just that I liked her response, and dropping the line about trying to work out a twining target with her seemed fine now that I got her response.

----

What exactly does not sit right with you?

It just feels like it could be pocketing. Like you gave her a little softball questioning and when she answered you said you liked the response so that she's on your good side, you had a little moment talking about your PR and everything

[gorilla]

For the record, I also believe Lukewarm's claim; one reason being that with the mod saying explicitly that there is EXACTLY ONE role which exceed the guidelines laid out, and for lukewarm to then pontificate they are that exactly one role invites a counterclaim if lukewarm is scum. Gorilla's attempt to throw shade in that direction is noted.

...you do realize the role that exceeded the guidelines in the original game was a scum one, right? It's not remotely a reason to clear someone off the claim. You can ask yourself "why would scum claim such a role openly", but if they present it as being used in a protown way, get people to go along with it, that would seem to be a worthy use of the role.

Yes, admittedly, I'm being very paranoid about this but in my mind it makes sense to have a role that can potentially act as a counter for the town mass coordinating invictus targets, which seems elf-evidently one of the most powerful strategic moves that can be done.


It's possible this worrying is all for nothing! But writing someone off immediately on the basis of a roleclaim is how town loses games. And to be clear: I am not even remotely close to pushing to vote lukewarm today, he'd be pretty far down my list even with the reasons I have to be cautious.

[gorilla]

I'm struggling to believe that gorilla looks at my play around marci all game, and is ever worried that I am actively trying to pocket her.

VOTE: gorilla


I think it more likely that it is scum not wanting me to write marci off as town and also not wanting me written off as town (added to meuhs point about his reaction to bell)

Okay.

[gorilla]

I could just as easily make the same argument that you're explicitly trying to keep Mala and R&R from being written off as town here, and that's a group with a significantly stronger potential reason for being town than either of you. I also...am not really pushing for eliminating you. Just expressing reasons for skepticism. Because I feel it's important to get that out there.

This is an interesting point, and I'm having trouble believing a lot of marci's reasoning today is genuine. Would absolutely be willing to flip her given potential associations - if she flips scum I'd feel a lot better about Luke. 1418 as a response is incredibly underwhelming - the dismissive tone and brushing it off as "progression behind closed doors" strikes me as scummy - I would figure it would be easy for a town player to lay out the exact thought process behind their read shifting.

open one of my recent towngames and pointnout where i actually lay out good suspisions instead of naked voting someone

ill wait <3

Have you considered...not doing that?

But even with you defense being "that's my meta", should I be townreading you for that here?

tbh qhy would scum ever want me to be townread by anyone

ive been such a frequent early on miselim recently, scum prob love that shit

Why do scum ever defend town? Because it's useful to position themselves as being on the right side of history, and if they take someone's side it's more likely that that person will leap to

their

defense should it ever become necessary. It's not really complicated.

And again, I am not even really out here saying "Lukewarm is obvious mafia for doing this!". I'm just pointing out a single interaction that felt off to me.

[gorilla]

Why dwlee, of all people? I don't want to hear about the nightkill, please give me something from their actual posts that is worthy of being a top townread.

No reason, just felt like it.

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

[gorilla]

For what it's worth, although the initial wave of votes on me were terrible, I think there's no more than 1 scum in the group (very likely Dunn). Meuh I think is town but wrongly tunneled and looked like town who genuinely believed she had caught on to something. I could be wrong, because scum have incentive to appear "reasonable" when pushing someone and I have a hard time sorting that out, but I think she's far more likely town than not.

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

Discrediting other players both makes the wagon on you look less significant and makes you actually look like you're scumhunting. (Something that you've been called out for doing too little of)
I don't really see how it clears you here

Neither of those players are voting me. How does discrediting them help the wagon?

I've fairly obviously been hunting all day now. If you still think I'm doing too little, that is genuinely pathetic.

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

The point was more: why would that post upset Gorilla. I don't think that the reason Gorilla presented makes sense for town!Gorilla to actually be worried about. But I see why (if you read it as me declaring marci town after I had been pushing her) scum!gorilla would be unhappy with it.

Less goal with the post you made, and more why the emotion behind why you felt the need to comment on the post existed.

But :shrug: I don't even know how strongly that it makes you scum, but you are in the bottom half of my reads, and I hated the take, and I am generally looking for a new place to plant my vote since the other person I voted did not turn into a proper wagon, and I don't feel terrible strongly about any one other then Cakez.

I am not

upset

, friend. My jimmies remain un-rustled. Don't try to exaggerate what I'm saying. I said I didn't like a post, found it suspicious, and pointed out exactly what I didn't like. Then you got very defensive over the suggestion that it was pockety.

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

Discrediting other players both makes the wagon on you look less significant and makes you actually look like you're scumhunting. (Something that you've been called out for doing too little of)
I don't really see how it clears you here

Neither of those players are voting me. How does discrediting them help the wagon?

I've fairly obviously been hunting all day now. If you still think I'm doing too little, that is genuinely pathetic.

Calling me pathetic just makes me wanna vote you more, fyi! We're playing a cute little game on the internet, relax

And you're behaving like an asshat toward me, so forgive me if I'm a little less than empathetic. You either don't care or aren't trying to see me as having scumhunting intentions. If you're town, it's incredibly irritating and discourteous to have to deal with your horrendous tunneling based on very little reasoning.

[gorilla]

I went to reread cakez's posts to try to argue why he's town and wound up liking them less than I did before. I thought there was a little bit of depth to what he was saying and the will to try was there even if the conclusions weren't agreeable but there's a lot of blunt hammering away at targets like Datisi and Bell. 639 in particular feels very uncharitable.

I think Baltar comes off as definitively better than him, actually?


I wouldn't say he's a top scumread but don't really feel comfortable locking him as town anymore.

[gorilla]

Datisi (2) marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)

Look at this y'all
Marci is still on her page 1 vote and day 1 is almost over
She is not even really scumhunting

What about me?

Dwlee has been in my pool for a few days for being useless and their recent popin to shade Lavar was really bad as I said a few posts ago

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

Imagine if...

[gorilla]

Anyways, off the top of my head I could kill:

Cakez, mala, gorilla, dwlee or dunn here I think.

Mind telling me why dunn makes that list?

[gorilla]

Would go back to cakez if there are enough people willing to go there, but don't personally really have the energy to fight kovu on it atm.

Them seeming to completely townlock!cakez kinda deflated my desire to try and go for it.

Since then I have been kinda lost on what to do this day phase

This is bizarre to me. Multiple people have expressed suspicion of cakez, and you don't want to try to wagon him...because of Kovu? Her dissent is enough to make you give up on a scumread?

[gorilla]

meuh is already a wagon, so multiple people disagree with you. the fact that you don't seem to know this makes it

hard for me to believe that you're reading the thread closely enough

to come to a decision on her alignment that is worth listening to

This is something like the fifth time they've demonstrated that they're barely reading the game. It's frustrating.

Anyways, off the top of my head I could kill:

Cakez, mala, gorilla, dwlee or dunn here I think.

Mind telling me why dunn makes that list?

[gorilla]

@gorilla -- show receipts, because that just looks like a straight up lie right now. am I reading the game closely? no. I'm reading it the way I always do, which is skimming along and then going back to read sections in ISO/in depth.

there is one moment (yesterday, when I responded to you about the wrong thing) that was me glossing over the game, partly because I was high as balls. but I cannot think of any other moment where I haven't been upfront about my being behind, and when I'm commenting you can assume I'm up-to-date

For what it's worth, I do not think this makes you scum and was not implying that. I am saying is that it makes you incredibly unreliable and you should probably not be trusted given you're not really paying attention to the game. (this will make you upset. I don't care)

1. openly admitting to not having read LLD's ISO in 1402 while still suggesting it could be in favor of dwlee being town.
2. Completely missing the context of dunn repeating my argument at me (also in 1402)
3. outright misreading the post i quoted in 1475 and answering about a different one - is this small and shitty and a nitpick? yes. would I care about it normally? no. But since you're asking me to prove that you're not paying attention to the game, I might as well show it.
4. just now as fire pointed out


There, that huge waste of time is done. You can get mad at me for correctly assessing you're not reading the game thoroughly, and I'll move on with my life.

[gorilla]

Looking over the votes on Meuh - I'm not really sure there's a compelling case there. Kovu simply gives a "I definitely don't tr Meuh" and something about how she seems like she's sharing a PT with marci. fire has some point about having an off response to being accused of sheeping and ignoring his vote on her. Baltar is mostly relying on wagonomics reasoning. None of that particularly makes me want to vote for her.

I think Fey's 1168 actually makes the

best

points, which feels weird because I don't have any reason in particular to townread Fey. There's at least some logic to what fey is saying but although Meuh is making conclusions about the Day 1 wagons I feel are strange and unnatural, I don't think that inherently makes it scum reasoning. I've found her process to mostly be believable throughout this game and when I was arguing with her she felt genuine. I know that's vague and crappy, sorry.


Maybe I am just Bad At Mafia and am unable to see what other people are seeing, but I don't really see why she's being scumread.

[gorilla]

I mean, you're free to ignore your teammates when they're not saying what you want to hear, that's definitely a good strategy for winning this team game.

I think if you're town what you're saying should mostly be ignored, yes. I have no reason to believe anything you say is remotely reliable when your play has been as sloppy and lazy as it has been.

[gorilla]

Kovu, Bell, Gammagooey, fireisredsir
{Rhyme and Reason, Malakittens} - mechanical things?
VP Baltar, Meuh
Val89, marcistar, Enchant
Dwlee99, SirCakez, Fey, Lukewarm
Dunnstral


Where I'm at right now, reads-wise, tiers mostly unordered. Kind of just willing to trust the claim from Mala for now but I think on balance RnR is most likely town regardless.

I think Dunnstral is very likely a hit here, based on the way he's playing and the way the thread is treating him. Just...look at what he's done, look at how he's responded to pressure, he's significantly more concerned about saving his own skin than finding scum.


I also think that if Dunnstral flips mafia, Lukewarm should basically always die immediately after him. I think the way he went from promoting a townread of Dunnstral on day 1 to very quietly slipping him in at the end of his possible eliminations is very likely to be partner indicative. The thing about this is that I am the person he is voting, and presumably his biggest scumread right now. I am also the #1 anti-Dunn person in the thread right now, but when asked about it he doesn't really seem to acknowledge the fact that I'm the one pushing Dunn.

Now, people can suspect two different players who are both pushing each other and unlikely to be on a team together - I'm not holding him responsible for that. But I would expect some attempt to at least acknowledge the cognitive dissonance that comes from being willing to eliminate the person your top scumread is wagoning. He had none of that. To me, it looks significantly more like he is hedging his bets on Dunnstral.

I also think his response to light suspicion from me was pretty bad, an the way he's handling Mala's claim is actually what people are accusing me of - it reeks of scum afraid of being boxed in by mechanics. The way he keeps trying to push her and wants a full claim has significant scum motive to it, I believe.

I also think that if Luke flips scum, I'd basically clear marci as town, but that's a conditional on top of a conditional, and I'm not going to re-order my entire reads list based on that. Just keep it in mind for the future.


Fey...I had her as a suspect initially because I basically couldn't remember anything about her. But in th interest of fairness, I went through her iso again, and I still don't find anything I strongly townread from her. There's some analysis but it feels perfunctory, I'm not whelmed by any of it.

Relatedly, dwlee basically still doesn't have significant content in this game. I don't truly know what to make of it. I could easily see them flipping scum, but I would be equally unsurprisedif they were town who just never got their head in the game and was an easy misflip. Regardless, if nothing changes from them I would be okay with them dying at some point.

I very much doubt that both are scum here, though. One max, if dwlee is scum I feel significantly better about Fey. They're both in that kind of "maybe, maybe not" area for me.


I already addressed cakez in an earlier post.


Meuh is...someone I struggle with. Now that fire is articulating his points against Meuh more clearly, I can see what he means and it makes me hesitate, but...I still don't know. I find a lot of other people more suspicious than her. I'm trying to

not

OMGUS because I find doing so tends to be inaccurate, and I thought her perspective, if flawed, made sense as coming from a town player. Maybe if I'm wrong on Dunnstral she's worth re-examining but I kind of doubt the scumteam openly piles on me like that - I'd expect at least a couple to try to stay off me and keep their hands clean. I did go so far as to check her scum game in the completed mini normal to see if she would do a sort of bold partner defense, but it didn't really feel like that. Would revisit her if one of the names below her was able to be cleared.


I had been rereading fire's ISO last night and he still seems like an obvious townie. I could maybe towncase Gamagooey is necessary? That's one where I don't remotely get the scumreads on him at all because it seems so self-evident to me.

[gorilla]

Checking in to say I am okay with the wagons being what they are and it's good to have people forced to take stances.

[gorilla]

I have read over dwlee's posting in the pages since I posted my wall last night and while I'm not exactly whelmed by towniness from it, I think it's better than what Dunn is doing.

[gorilla]

I think basically nothing of that post. I think his responses on the last page suck.

[gorilla]

I'd pick at them, but rather let the people he's speaking to have a chance to respond.

[gorilla]

1719 feels mildly town-indicative.
Dwlee’s back and forth with Fire almost looks like its objective is to discredit Fire more than anything else…
Can’t say I like that.
Looking through Dwlee’s ISO, I feel like some of their posts could very much be fabricated by scum trying to feign ignorance you know? Stuff like 1056 and 1149 kinda spooks me.
1369 is a confusing way to dismiss that argument? Though iirc that argument was used in favour of their innocence so I can’t say it think it’s scum-indicative here, might actually be +town. Ehh but they’re aware of it in 1578…
1425 I was a fan of at first, but the “town slip” was just lack of knowledge on the nightkill? Which could easily be pointed out by scum.
1655 is weird to me. Why does Kovu’s stance here actually matter? That’s, as I mentioned earlier, something I feel was made with the goal to discredit Fire. 1679 too.

Skimming through Dunn’s ISO, there isn’t that much that stands out to me? I’m not seeing much in terms of townpings or scumpings. Meh.

VOTE: Dwlee since I’m uneasy about them and feel stronger about them

Debated whether to mention this now or not, but, irrespective of my read on Dunn, I don't like this post.

It feels like it's...making a great deal of trying to look like she's

thinking

about these things and meandering through these like she's reacting to them in real time, because she wants to make that effort apparent. It doesn't read like how I'd expect a townie to structure things, where they read the posts and then assemble their conclusions from them. It also is mostly waffly in an inorganic way, here's a post, it could be town but ehh maybe not. The strength of the conclusions doesn't really feel like they justify a vote on dwlee, either.

It doesn't feel naturally constructed whatsoever.

[gorilla]

I had actually been typing that up prior to getting ninja'd 100 times because I was busy with work, but seeing agreement, let's go for this.

VOTE: Meuh

[gorilla]

*they

[gorilla]

I cannot tell if Dunn is actually town, or if (stealing this one from fire from earlier) he wrote that flurry of posts specifically to make me think that he is town. Because, I really liked that flurry of posts.

What about that is good or difficult to fake?

[gorilla]

My vote on you has literally nothing whatsoever to do with annoyance toward you pushing me earlier.

[gorilla]

Sample size scum=1, town=3 VP Baltar only says fair warning as scum

please go read the setup again.

Fair warning, in games like this, I'll probably ask lots of dumb questions about the setup/mechanics.

Certified stupid reason to catch someone but if anyone wants to check more games that'd be epic

He used it as town here and also in 2013 and 2011, although I assume you don't care about those as much.

(also, you can just search someone's post history for a phrase rather than checking individual games).

[gorilla]

I kind of doubt scum goes for as desperate an attack as trying to get someone on a verbal tell, though? meh.

[gorilla]

How about specifically 1365 and 1727

I will give these a read in depth again tomorrow.

@gorilla - idk, seems like a desperation move to me

I literally just described it as "desperate". That is not a compelling rebuttal. Town get desperate too. It just comes across differently depending on alignment. What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny? I feel like normally scum trying to wriggle out of the elim go for a more straightforawrd defense. To me anyway the wild finger pointing is a lot more consistent with how town getting pushed to the brink act.

[gorilla]

There were a few things that I liked.

Starting with his reads list. His town reads are: Me, fire, val and kovu. With town leaning on Baltar, Meuh and Marci.

For the most part, that is my basic grasp on the game. Feels like we are reading the same game (or like I said, he could be designing himself to mirror my reads in particular)

I also, in particular liked the things that he called out for town reading me. They were not the easy out in reference to my claim. They were not even the big cases that I wrote day 1. Both would be easy things to throw in and call me a town read of me. They were 1606 and 1106. Those are not easy, stand out things to remember when trying to bs a town read on me. But, I can totally see why he would town read me for them, and it makes me feel like he is really reading my posts to come to that read.

Then I like the Val town read. I have also started town reading Val (actually not sure I have actually expressed that in thread before now) so seeing it there gives me good feelies.

And I also really liked the reach out to twin with me if I needed him to. And when I saw it, I could see where town Dunn would come to the decision to make that offer since it is true that he would not be a night kill risk.

It was just a bunch of things back to back that I liked.

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

[gorilla]

This, of course, mostly reinforces the notion that Luke is Dunn's teammate here because the reasoning seems actively motivated at this point. Less like he's honestly evaluating Dunnstral and more like he's trying to find reasons for him being town.

[gorilla]

What's the move here as scum? To convince people to vote you using a case that is likely to be viewed as reachy? To get people like me to see it as towny?

I think, as scum, it is a two fold benefit. It gives the appearance of scum hunting (they are still pushing this as valid, mind you), and if there I'd any merit to what they are saying it shades me as potentially having ulterior motives to push dwlee. They said they think I might be more scummy than Meuh after all!

Town can act desperately, you're right. However, is that desperation being made in good faith is the question. Dwlee is a very smart person, so I am going to treat my assessments with that in mind. I have a hard time believing they think scum broadly are more likely to use particular words than town. They are using a mathblade example (which I'm skeptical is even true) as an indictment on me. It's lazy and convenient. The same thing happened when dwlee attacked dunn using cakez' argument and then said 'whoopsie, that's not true'.

It's street fight logic: use any weapon you have. The problem is that dwlee isn't even checking what they are saying first to see if it is accurate. That's where my problem is.

Meh. I suppose we'll see one way or the other soon enough.

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

[gorilla]

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

[gorilla]

Ok woah, just found a VC, I deefinitely thought Dunn and Dwlee wer top wagons, lol this would explain why Dwlee has just resported to calling all votes on them bad.. the dunn wagon died, and dwlee was just picking next best wagon,

I definitely agree with Luke not looking great, I thought his day 1 was fine, but nothing about d2 seems good... he feels like he's falling apart lol

umm gorilla, you said Luke's role was a scum role in the first version of this, what happened if that role picked the same invictus target as someone?

To be clear: The role in the original game was a role that supposedly "broke the rules" of what was possible in the setup. It was in fact a red herring that did nothing.

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

[gorilla]

There is no guarantee in particular that the one role in this game that could be non-standard is the same exact role, or the same exact alignment. I don't much doubt he's being truthful in his claim that his role does something but significantly doubt it is a town-aligned power, particular in concert with how he is playing this game.

Did you respond or note to me pointing out cakez trying to quick clear Luke on this point? I found that very suss, and possibly linking of their alignments.

I do think Luke's role could easily be scum aligned, and he was trying to get a super power. Speaking of the doctor-nerfing aspects, could be scum need to guess a town invictus target like that to gain invictus protection abilities. Would be a decent risk-reward mechanic to build in. /wildassspeculation

I specifically said that it seems weird that there is no hint at re-evaluating Me.

Especially given the context of how I have been approaching this game when compared to the people you are scum reading.

You have a pretty good PR claim why would I reevaluate you at this point? I feel fine townbinning you unless some evidence comes up you're fakeclaiming

It seems like Luke's role could equally be a scum role. Not sure what as described makes it town for sure. It comes down to whether you read his play as town, imo.

I feel the manner of his claiming was town. Like it makes sense to me why he claimed it from the town mindset

I'm slightly skeptical of this, but alright.

These posts? I didn't have a lot of thought on them, I can easily see scum or town making that sort of post.

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Cakez has been my strongest scum read this entire day phase, and you only just recently revealed that there is apparently a reason to think otherwise outside of you thinking that scum!Cakez would not call day 1 ass (which I fundamentally disagreed with)

My comment on Mala was mainly that I think that that pop in was pretty scummy (on top of her already underwhelming presence this game). She has been out of thread for 2 full days, and that is the one any only thing she felt like commenting on. Found it scummy, and I called it out as scum. I am aware that she is not dying this phase, which is why it did not also come with a vote.

Based on play, those are my two strongest scum reads. And both are apparently off the table for the day based on other peoples mech claims.

Deciding who is your third strongest scum read is a pretty uncomfortable approach to a game, since at that point it is basically just letting someone you can see as scum die.

I had a preference for Dunn to die earlier as his ISO was missing a substantive quality that I expect from Town!Dunn, but then I liked a couple of his posts. If he goes over, I won't be upset or anything, but Having A Series of Posts That i Liked coming from Dunn is more then I can say about Dwlee, so I guess between the two I would go Dwlee at this point? (Also, Dunn is the only person currently set up for me to twin with, so there is that too).

What an ass day 1

I bet scum were all over the Lavar wagon the reasoning for it was so bad

I find it hard to believe that Cakez town read Lava as hard as he claimed day 1. I also didn't like the way that he engaged with the case on Lava itself.

It feels more like he is just trying hard to look like The Person Who Was Right.

VOTE: Cakez

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

like all my scumspects suddenly developed scumreads on me after I laid out my scumpool yesterday and I don't think it's a coincidence

I would very much like to kill Cakez today if anyone else is interested.

Like, here he is pushing the idea that scum would scum read him for scum reading scum. Ignores the fact that he town binned Dunn Day 1, but Dunn was pushed him.

Spoiler: Dunn shading Cakez, while cakez is still calling dunn town

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

I ignored it because I've gotten tons of towntells from you earlier on so I didn't see the relevance

It also ignores the people who are scum reading him that are not in his scum pool. (Me, I am talking about me. He has done nothing but call me town, but is then calling other people suspicious for doing something that I am also doing).

The active sum of your case against cakez is paper-thin: he was protesting about the lavar wagon was bad, and that he thought scum were pushing him because he suspected scum (a mindset that frequently comes from town.

Your case against Malakittens is that she is lurking.

These are both lazy reads that I would expect to see from someone who doesn't actually care about solving the game.

[gorilla]

I cannot tell if Dunn is actually town, or if (stealing this one from fire from earlier) he wrote that flurry of posts specifically to make me think that he is town. Because, I really liked that flurry of posts.

What about that is good or difficult to fake?

Having agreeable town reads means almost essentially nothing. Scum know who is town and can fake believable townreads. It is not very hard. The idea that scum are somehow incapable of reading your posts to fake a read on you is baffling. It strikes me as terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you.

Again, agreeing with you on a singular townread is an actively

terrible

reason to be townreading someone. Agreeing on that one read means almost nothing

I don't remotely see how you, as town, cannot be paranoid he's buddying up to you here. None of this is a remotely compelling defense.

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

No, I was asking you why you townread his posts. You gave me reasoning for townreading those posts that is bad and makes no sense.

I am absolutely not dismissing your reasoning because "scum could make those posts", I am dismissing your reasoning because none of it is particularly more likely to come from a town player despite you positing as such, and most of it boils down to "he agrees with me and is townreading me"

Now you're getting upset because I'm calling you scum, because your previous attempt to pivot on me failed.

[gorilla]

It also makes a pretty strange leap from saying that scum!Dunn is purposefully approach to me is "terribly convenient in terms of how he's handling you."

To saying that we are partnered. Like, if you look at Dunn's play, and think that he is town reading me out of convenience, it seems to imply that he is scum approaching me in a way to get me to work with him. Yet he then says that we are partnered.

There is no reason for scum!Dunn to go out of his way to approach me that way if I am his partner. And there is no reason for scum!Luke to focus on Dunn's town read of me as the basis for my town pings on him if we are partnered.

Like, it feels like, based on the arguments he is presenting, Gorilla Should be thinking that I am getting pocketed here. Or possibly that I am White Knighting Dunn here. But instead he is calling up partnered.

I've entertained multiple possibilities in my mind, trying to act like I immediately have to have the conclusion that feels most natural to you is ridiculous.

I think you're both scummy on individual play. I think your reasoning surrounding Dunn is actively horrendous. My natural impulse is to immediately see that as teamed, because I've been calling you out fort a while now, and I think you'd realize as scum that you pretty much have to shield him at this point. But I have also acknowledged the possibility I may be wrong on his alignment and you are using him as a convenient protection.

[gorilla]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

FTR, If I die overnight as a consequence of this and my invictus does not go off, power-lim lukewarm. There's a very decent chance his current read pivot is being done as an excuse to justify killing me.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Lukewarm

Hell, I'll put it there spiritually. I think he's being blatant scum right now.

[gorilla]

The timing of that vote flop onto the lead wagon is a "get me into the night phase and away from the person calling me out" move.

[gorilla]

The active sum of your case against cakez is paper-thin: he was protesting about the lavar wagon was bad, and that he thought scum were pushing him because he suspected scum (a mindset that frequently comes from town.

Your case against Malakittens is that she is lurking.

These are both lazy reads that I would expect to see from someone who doesn't actually care about solving the game.

See, here he us once again misrepresenting my thoughts to make them seem ridiculous.


My thoughts on Cakez is that his reads and read confidence feel faked. That his approach felt scum motivated to look good. That he is not genuinely sorting players, especially highlighted by the way that he wrote me off as town early day 1 and appears to not be looking at me any more since.

These are all pretty strong reasons to suspect someone as being scum before we have had a scum flip to look at associative.

Buy gorilla has decided to push the narrative that I am scum with Dunn, so he is dismissing everything that i have said about every player.

Pedit: once again, he did not even ask : would scum dunn or town dunn be more likely to have given much thought to when I made the comment about looking up whether datisi was scum or town in the game I remembered.

And it is my opinion that scum dunn, already knowing that datisi and I were both town would have breezed past that post, and not thought much about it. Nor thought to bring it up as a Core Reason to think that I am town.

No, I am not doing that, and at this point I have admitted there is a possibility that I am just wrong on Dunn. I think your pots ar incredinly scummy and no not come from a place of genuine reasoning. There is no "twisting of your words", I am quoting them back at you.

"reads and confidence feel faked" is a terrible and a weak reason to scumread someone. People in thsi game have vouched that the confidence is more or less a personality trait. If his approach was trying to look good, he has mostly not succeeded in that, and you have failed to sufficiently demonstrate why that approach can't come from town other than "I did not agree with him". The idea that someone having a townread from Day 1 they stick to on Day 2 is evidence of not genuinely sorting players is a terrible argument. Do you expect every player to persistently re-evaluate all their reads every single phase? No one plays that way. I have seen plenty of town players who get early townreads and stick to them, often longer than advised. The idea that this is exclusively a scum motivated read is ludicrous.

You are the one who is actively misrepresenting me. I am tearing holes in your reasoning because it is weak and does not look to come from a legitimate thought process.

(I know no one is reading this at this point. I don't really care, though.)

[gorilla]

Luke, I'm confused why you're suddenly all "I want cakez now" "I want Mala" like, I feel like a lot of focus has gone into Dunn/Dwlee, and like especially mala now, we've all established we're leaving mala alone till d3, then if she continues doing nothing, she's main focus, literally aready established. End of day is close, you don't have thoughts on Dunn/Dwlee? or do you think they're both town?

Dunn isn't even really a wagon anymore and I just quoted his (bad) defense of Dunn. He's basically made no comment on dwlee save to mention he could kill them today with no further elaboration as to why. Hasn't really given a meaningful read on dwlee at any point this game.

I could be misreading Dunnstral at this point for all I know, I think Luke's play is very scummy regardless of Dunn's alignment at this point. He doesn't look to be believably sorting anyone.

Dunn is very weak town rn for me

I prefer to let Luke live cause of the claim

What do you think of Baltar

Not interested in voting, sorry.

[gorilla]

Baltar is scum claiming with this push on me so please reconsider :plead:

I understand why you think that but I am not sold on it. I will double-check him to see how I feel about his recent posts but I promise nothing.

[gorilla]

Mmmm, can see the similarities

[gorilla]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.

[gorilla]

I think the role makes significantly more sense as a scum counterplay to town publicly coordinating invictus targets than as a vigilante. Of course, the notion that as mafia I would openly antagonize a role I had obviously deduced was killing power earlier in the day is absurd.

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

[gorilla]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.

we should force him to kill a town preferred target first, yeah?

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

failure to deliver on the town-selected target is a death sentence then. Will be glad to vote Luke out if he can't kill.

I think he's already made his move, not like you can threaten him to do otherwise. And presumably it'll trigger my invictus. Which I'm fine with. As I've said, it's not important to me to live to endgame.

[gorilla]

gorilla, did you make a Dunn case? I'm onto that phase, and if there is a succinct summation (or even just bullet points), I'd be much obliged.

pedit -- @ Meuh, I don't recall complaining about you overexplaining things. I will give this a read though.

pedit x2 - you think he sniped you? I mean, if so, that's a good reason to kill Luke. Luke, is that the case?

I don't think I've ever made a formal case, no. I've made arguments but nothing that goes into fine detail. I'm not sure how much I want that flip at this point anymore anyway.

[gorilla]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

[gorilla]

Kovu, Bell, Gammagooey, fireisredsir
{Rhyme and Reason, Malakittens}
Dwlee99
VP Baltar, marcistar, Enchant, Val89, SirCakez,
Fey, Dunnstral
Lukewarm, Meuh


I think if I'm right on luke-scum it clears marci and enchant (and mala, natch). I wouldn't necessarily clear Cakez off of his push there but Cakez on an individual level has felt slightly better as the day has gone on. Val is someone I admittedly have barely been paying attention to lately. Dunn I would avoid pulling the trigger on before seeing what Luke's role card says.

I wouldn't really support a wagon on someone other than Meuh or Fey at this point (I don't think Luke is a realistic possibility, my vote there is symbolic). Haven't been satisfied with the way most of the wagons have been going.

[gorilla]

In the event you are successfully killed by any means other than the standard day elimination, another Invictus shot, or by a modkill, you will automatically attempt to kill your target.

From the sample role PM. I assume whatever his power role usage is does not count as an invictus shot, which means it would trigger the invictus of the person it killed.

[gorilla]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

My thoughts were that if gorilla is scum, his invictus will be on me either way, so it literally didn't matter.

But, on the chance that I was wrong, him knowing that I was a vig that the scum team would have to kill would lead to him moving it.

Basically, saw a potential benefit if I was wrong, and no down side to outing.

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.
If he is scum, and I do out, I die to his invictus.

If he is town, and I don't out. I die to his invictus
If he is town, and I do out, there was a chance that I don't die to his invictus

Lol, hell no I'm killing you every time you cheeky scumbag

[gorilla]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

This isn't how a town PR who believes they have a strong chance of dying overnight plays the end of the day. Just an FYI.

[gorilla]

4. Does everyone have access to Invictus?

• It can be expected that most or all players have access to Invictus.

I am operating under the assumption that scum have Invictus as well.

ok, so the scum have invictus in the original game. However, it does not appear there is a town killing ability in that game (skimmed, so maybe I missed it). That feels a bit broken to me if we assume all the scum can invictus.

There was no town killing ability in that game beyond the invictus, but there was potential for one to exist. Still, in such an instance, although that ability can function as a double-edged sword I think it tilts the number of kills in town's favor further in what is already a setup that gives town a significant amount of power.

[gorilla]

Even if he some how manages to dodge invictus's as scum, he doesn't win the game as the end game scum

having scum!enchant in Xylo sounds fucking terrible.

Scum Enchant isn't a problem there. Town Enchant is. (although again should emphasize he's never scum if Luke is)

[gorilla]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is being able to kill me. He is absolutely flailing scum. A town PR in this situation would be concerned with making their perspective clear and leaving legacy reads. He is not doing that. He is playing purely reactively. It is not town motivated whatsoever.

[gorilla]

Like, what reason does he actually have to desperately canvas for someone else to put their invictus on me? I can't fucking nightkill him if I'm mafia else I get invictus'd, he can always try to get people to vote me out. Why does he need to vig me? There's no plausible town motivation.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Meuh

I'll put aside the thunderdoming for now though, I know people won't vote there. But I'm not satisfied with voting dunn atp either. So I'll go back to my prior scumread.

[gorilla]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is being able to kill me. He is absolutely flailing scum. A town PR in this situation would be concerned with making their perspective clear and leaving legacy reads. He is not doing that. He is playing purely reactively. It is not town motivated whatsoever.

This feels like a perspective flip.

If gorilla thinks that I am scum, then gorilla should think that I can just use the regular night kill on him if Dunn goes over and I don't have a twin option on him.

But he knows that the only way that I can kill him is with my twinning ability, because he knows I am town.

-----

And yes, atm I am solely focused on being able to kill him, because I think that he is scum.

You don't want to use the regular nightkill on me because trading me 1 for 1 is a bad deal for scum. You have an extra kill and want to use it in addition to the factional kill. That's not at all hard to figure out.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Meuh

I'll put aside the thunderdoming for now though, I know people won't vote there. But I'm not satisfied with voting dunn atp either. So I'll go back to my prior scumread.

Why are you not wanting dunn?

I'm less confident on that read because of how luke is acting around him. Would compromise there given deadline but less confident he's scum now.

[gorilla]

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is

being able to kill me

.

This person does not think that I have access to the scum night kill, but is calling me scum.

This person does not believe himself when he calls me scum.

Lol, no. You are scum kill power. You want 2 kills, not one.

Terrible, reachy argument. It's not even remotely hard to understand what I'm saying and you're trying to distort it.

You have an extra kill and want to use it in addition to the factional kill. That's not at all hard to figure out.

eh i kinda think that if luke is scum here he's not actually a vig and if he has the power it does something else

Reasonable confidence the power exists to punish public declaration of invictus targets.

[gorilla]

Like, what reason does he actually have to desperately canvas for someone else to put their invictus on me? I can't fucking nightkill him if I'm mafia else I get invictus'd, he can always try to get people to vote me out. Why does he need to vig me? There's no plausible town motivation.

And if you do think that they both would activate the invictus, then why would my only concern be on twinning with YOU. If I was scum, who I twinned on would not be all that important to me, so long as it wasn't on one of my hypothetical partners. Because I could night kill you, and twin on them.

Like, why would I reach out to Marci and ask that she explicitly lands on you. You are correctly point to the fact that I am incredibly invested in my twin shot landing on you at this point. That is correct. But you are not genuinely thinking about whether it makes sense for scum or town Luke to care about that. Because you don't actually care about my alignment.

You have fairly obviously not cared about my alignment for some time now.

I should note you skipped answering this. Because there's no logical explanation.


I don't think the logic here is hard to grasp. I

have

thought about this:

---

In a world where Luke is scum: He is a mafia member with an extra kill. He loses this kill if he dies. In such an instance, he needs to find someone to twin with before he dies. That would mean the mafia get the regular kill in addition to his kill. They lose him, but get 2 kills to compensate. Otherwise they only shoot me and go 1 for 1. This is a negative trade for the mafia.

In a world where Luke is town: He wants to vig me because he's sure I'm scum. He could always just...invictus me, and I can't nightkill him because of that. So why the desperation? It doesn't make sense.


In a world where I am scum: taking away luke's vig shot is actually anti-mafia. It means we'd have to use a factional kill on Luke, and he'd invictus me. That is the same 1 for 1 trade as described above. In a orld where I am mafia, I would

gladly

accept being vigged and say no more, because it would free up our factional kill to be used on someone else! Getting vigged would give scum an extra kill from invictus. That's a win for the mafia.

In a world where I am town (aka this one!): I don't care if I am killed by luke because I think he's scum and I get to take him down with me. I point it out and leave reads on the way out.


Anyway, for real, I am finished with this engagement. There is no further ground to tread. I will gladly discuss my reads on other players instead.

[gorilla]

I want to note that I think VP Baltar and Enchant have both towntold very heavily in response to the dram over the last few pages. Paranoid world says that Baltar could step in between what he sees as an inevitable tvt implosion as scum to farm credit but I think the concern and the way he's trying to convince luke to shoot in the POE is legitimate. Enchant posting the way he did just doesn't come from scum and I would very much oppose killing them at this point.

More willing to vote Dunn at this point given more confidence in my townreads and narrowing PoE.


Would also be entirely willing to flashwagon Fey if anyone had the desire for it. Think she fits the exact model of where I'd expect scum to be: bland, unmemorable, doing exactly enough to avoid suspicion and nothing more. Trying not to stand out, as it were.

[gorilla]

beetlejuice'd

[gorilla]

I want to note that I think VP Baltar and Enchant have both towntold very heavily in response to the dram over the last few pages. Paranoid world says that Baltar could step in between what he sees as an inevitable tvt implosion as scum to farm credit but I think the concern and the way he's trying to convince luke to shoot in the POE is legitimate. Enchant posting the way he did just doesn't come from scum and I would very much oppose killing them at this point.

More willing to vote Dunn at this point given more confidence in my townreads and narrowing PoE.


Would also be entirely willing to flashwagon Fey if anyone had the desire for it. Think she fits the exact model of where I'd expect scum to be: bland, unmemorable, doing exactly enough to avoid suspicion and nothing more. Trying not to stand out, as it were.

I don't agree with this, Baltar is the kind of scum I like, they're fairly assertive, active, and involved.

I want to note that I think VP Baltar and Enchant have both towntold very heavily in response to the dram over the last few pages. Paranoid world says that Baltar could step in between what he sees as an inevitable tvt implosion as scum to farm credit but I think the concern and the way he's trying to convince luke to shoot in the POE is legitimate. Enchant posting the way he did just doesn't come from scum and I would very much oppose killing them at this point.

More willing to vote Dunn at this point given more confidence in my townreads and narrowing PoE.


Would also be entirely willing to flashwagon Fey if anyone had the desire for it. Think she fits the exact model of where I'd expect scum to be: bland, unmemorable, doing exactly enough to avoid suspicion and nothing more. Trying not to stand out, as it were.

Enchant always jokes adjacent to the battlefield.
I like your perspective that if this was tvt Baltar is trying to farm credit.

Oh, Sircakez apologized for not being here. Maybe I was wrong and they're town after all.

This shows a wild lack of understanding of what was actually going on such that I question if you're even paying attention. Admittedly I didn't pull quotes to refer to what I was speaking of but I didn't think the added detail would be necessary. It's not about enchant "joking" (which is not what he was doing) but how he reacted to and discussed the PR claim. I don't think he talks about it the way he did as scum.

[gorilla]

VOTE: dunnstral

I slept on it. Also okay with the marci vote after looking over her recent iso, where there seems to be...not much of a focus on anything. Not going to invictus luke anymore, you all can sort that out yourselves.

[gorilla]

That is...actually a startling decent wagon composition.

[gorilla]

I don't particularly believe the claim. I guess I'll just say now I'm a bodyguard. I don't think multiple protectives in a game is full-stop impossible: the first setup had two town bodyguards and one mafia one. But a doctor in combination with a bodyguard is a bit weird, even if the doctor is gated.

It's also why I was...not particularly concerned with being townread when I was getting wagoned, because my role has the potential to be self-resolving if I guess the correct nightkill target.

I was on Lukewarm night 1, because he was in my top townreads after Day 1 (how times change), was reasonably active, and didn't seem to be suspected by many people, so seemed a potential nightkill target. Kicking myself for not protecting LLD after she got N1'ed in DEFCON, but I really didn't think there was any chance she'd be the nightkill target after posting only 12 times, which is also why I was theorizing that most of the day 1 wagons were wrong. My invictus had been on dwlee, because I thought it most useful to resolve the counter wagon with the invictus kill.

[gorilla]

Dunn feels bad. Meuh also feels bad with how she tried to tie me to marci day 2 but voted me and not marci.

Val being a traffic analyst might mean cakez is a scum role.

[gorilla]

Spoiler:

maybe sircakez but thats because i don't like his starting post.

what was even wrong with my opening post?? I thought it was funny

can i even say fully what im thinking? it feels mean..

I'm hoarding all my posts this game so their value goes up

all ill say is that it seems like u were premaking excuses

it is funny yes, it makes it seem like ur playing both stocks and mafia at the same time but yeah

why do you need to know what bells pr is enchant -.-

Because i am PR too

and why did u need to say u r?
i still dont know why u would need to know what bell is r u hoping to catch him out in a lie or smtn? i don't see the goal of this otherwise..

i think val actually makes a good point on page 21.

also i dont like how bandwagony sircakez is.. and without even fully reading! he said he was skimming.
hmm

so hes not toptier scum to you? who is?

i think sircakez attack on you is so scummy since u basically claimed but like he used emojis so it spoke to my heart

did u miss that whole ass discussion me and luke had about my voting tendencies

who do you scumread besides datisi?

datisi, datisi, datisi, datisi, and datisi

sircakez

maybe luke idk i feel like even though i have a bad memory, i feel like nothing has really made me go ": O" in his posts

Is this true Marci? do you have no reads this game and just floated by?
Is that normal for you day 1?
What's different this game compared to those if not and what's the same?
What are you thinking about this game?
Who oo you think is town nd who do you think is scum?

@Lukewarm: Where is Marci in your reads right now?

I've been giving reads so clearly the devil is just blind
also how convenient it is!! he hasnt asked me for my opinions on anyone certain... which he could always do if he was ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE ME

theres been games where i just float by and just talk until i get something i feel in my soul. like one time someone told me it was sus for me to actually be serious about a game cuz they thought i was only a meme player ::(((
it depends on the sorta mood im in i think tbhs

i dont have alot of time to like type up thoughts since im at work for like another 4 hrs, and then ill be sleeping but if u have anything ur curious abt u can juat ask (:
i think gammagooey has a couple of agreeable takes but they piss me off so dont tell them i said that im not sure what i think of them tho aince the agreeable takes are v basic takes
i think kouvs town but i wouldnt trust them leading anything because theyre too emotional about things and too reactivey
balters i would say how self centered he is, i dont like that, so he scummy
fey towny
sircakez scummy, the bandwagoning is not good vibes at all
i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

idk who else exists

did u miss that whole ass discussion me and luke had about my voting tendencies

who do you scumread besides datisi?

datisi, datisi, datisi, datisi, and datisi

sircakez

maybe luke idk i feel like even though i have a bad memory, i feel like nothing has really made me go ": O" in his posts

Marci isn't even trying to scum hunt look back at this post
She has developed nothing all game except for her repeated attacks on Datisi and me. I don't believe she's actually scum hunting.

why dont u try asking me for reads ur just pressed for no reason..

873 idk who this is in their hydra, but i like ur thoughts!!!

Post 530[/post and [post]531

131 - Is long. Like really long. The entirety of the content of that post boils down to :
-Datisi felt off early.
-looking at the wagon building fast, making an either/or scenario that datisi is either scum or scum jumped on the wagon.
-Then arbitraily discounting the idea that scum jumped on the wagon.

i dont think this is uncharacteristic of val

Despite the length of 131, there is absolutely nothing about any other slot in the game other then Datisi and trying to keep the datisi wagon strong. All while saying that he can't articulate why he thinks that datisi is scum.

again, not uncharacteristic of val. remember when u 1v1d him and i just sat there and watched :person_standing:
hes a stubborn person

The final line: "Apologises to those who dislike wall posts, but I not sure of the alternative here." struck me as odd. It is self concious of the fact that he is wall posting, while saying that that is the only option this game (I infer because of post restrictions), but this is not multiple ideas that would normally seperated into different posts that have been condensed into 1 beacuse of the restriction.

this one makes sense, being kinda aware is scummy i think most of the time, but if he was REALLY worried wouldnt he have actually broke the post up like you say here?

137-139-143 are all explicitly limited to defending himself from datisi (rightfully) calling out that val's 131 post appears heavily fluffed.

this though, stands out as something different from the town val i remember, i dont think hes usually cautious of defending himself against scumreads, am i remembering wrong? i thought in u and vals fight he was offering himself up if we would go after u after as well?

There is also a lack of critical thinking on what he is saying here.

"Still skimming, but is anyone else getting the feeling from the last couple of pages that Kovu really wants someone to scumread me for a lack of activity"

i think this is a valid thing to note down, its something that stood out to me as well.

i think ur case is decent, but i still dont think its enough for me to fall in love with it.

also how convenient it is!! he hasnt asked me for my opinions on anyone certain... which he could always do if he was ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE ME

what does this mean? who are these people who are "certain" that you would expect him to ask you about?

anyone, literally anyone.
but he prefers to just frame it like i dont have any reads at all so :shrug:

Am I missing something, or there is a different game I don't remember off the top of my head?

Spoiler: i wouldnt be surprised if you forgot about the game..

Val89 is aligned with the

town

.

Your "When has mafia ever gained anything out of a night phase except for maybe PR info" made me wonder if Marci had been right, and if "ascetic" was what else they gained from making the right NK.

Turns out, she was.

do u have any reads on dwlee rn?

I know in normal circumstances asking for reads on a slot serves dual purpose, one of which is to assist in sorting my own slot.

That doesn't apply here, so I am minded not to give to my reads in order to deny scum information and maximise their bussing potential.

I wan't Norwee flipped today. We can discuss how I feel about Dwlee tomorrow.

setup

1x town ascetic activated innocent child
1x town 2-shot macho simple neapolitan
1x town babysitter
1x town lazy roleblocker
6x vt

1x mafia informed backup ascetic (there is a town ascetic activated innocent child in the game)
1x mafia 1-shot rolestopper backup ascetic
1x mafia backup ascetic

public info: all members of the mafia are backup ascetics. they may or may not have additional roles and/or modifiers.

links!!

main thread ~ viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87956
mod pt ~ viewtopic.php?f=90&t=87958
scum pt ~ viewtopic.php?f=90&t=87959
dead pt ~ viewtopic.php?f=90&t=87960

events!!

day 1:
~

toxictaipan

is yeeted, flips

vanilla townie

night 1:
~

darby

is macholy simply neapolitaning

marcistar

(1/2) [no result because she is a power role]
~

redtea

is babysitting

val89

[fails because he is ascetic]
~

marcistar

is lazily roleblocking

gamma emerald

[success]
~

dwlee

is killing

val89

, flips

town ascetic activated innocent child

~

gamma emerald

is rolestopping

norwegianboyee

(1/1) [fails because he is roleblocked]

the reason it reminds me of similar vibez, is how you didnt give reads in that game, and you arent giving that many in this game.
im v sure i was in my mind like "im gonna do something that aligns with vals reads since hes town!!" during that game, but when u refused to give reads i just yoloed it, so i think not talking stuff out was the death of you that game, and i think the vibes say it may be the death of u this game.

You could probably guess but I vastly prefer the marci wagon to Lavar's
Like the only reason I could get for people voting him is that his posting is a little stilted and that his self-admitted tinfoil of Datisi & Marci being scum together is bad. Like he knows nobody's going to agree with it, that's why he said it's tinfoil, and I still think his early posts were good with him flatly saying what he thinks but being open to looking at other things/potentially being wrong about early reads.

chat with me please
ur becoming annoying

I'm reversing my read on marci. Everyone wanting to wagon for the sake of having dueling wagons should explain why?
VOTE: Datisi as a placeholder

If I was scum here I would have dived on Lavar ages ago regardless of his alignment

cake evil cake evil

Datisi (2) marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)

Look at this y'all
Marci is still on her page 1 vote and day 1 is almost over
She is not even really scumhunting

ill fix that rq for u
UNVOTE:

after a quick skim I like Dwlee's 2nd and 3rd posts but basically nothing else there is good

I currently choose to embrace cheekiness for a few hours but I would vote Dwlee over Lavar too if nobody is on board with this

VOTE: Enchant

I don't feel like we...learn anything from wagoning Enchant. Basically everyone can argue it as a justifiable kill, it doesn't force anyone to take strong stances. Basically the type of player that is ideal vig fodder in regular games.

#scumbuddies4lyfe

VOTE: SirCakez

did u agree with lukes reasonings ooooor?

@Marci - since you're voting me how do you feel about my not-you reads? Or my votes yesterday after it become clear that you weren't going to get elim'd that game day? Do you think I'm more likely to be scum given the flips, and/or that anyone else is more likely to be town b/c of them?

i think ur playing it safe with ur reads, enchant, dwlee, lavar were ur votes other than me, and all people who aren't making too much noise in the thread

I personally feel like if VPB is scum it isn't because of the reasons Fey+fire are bringing up about picking fights and calling fire's push ridiculous. I think he's being reasonable in his responses and the cheekiness/pushiness/whatever you want to call it is just VPB being VPB. Like I don't think I'm actually good at reading VPB until a couple flips happen and I can see where he was pushing and when/why, but I've played with VPB in enough games over the last decade to get a decent understanding of his posting personality at least.

this reads a bit like ur trying to buddy buddy vip balter.

also also would like to hear more from LLD & Mala before deadline, but I get that they have RL circumstances to deal with atm so they do not get placed in the category with Dunn+Enchant of "would happily throw them off an quickly moving airship"

this seems kinda fake imo since i didnt see u really try to follow up w it?

-Don't reeeeally get why Dunn's coming up now when I think he would have been imo a better counterwagon to Lavar than Dwlee was yesterday but whatever

i think this is pretty convient of u to say, as u didnt really push overly hard in dunns direction, i feel like u were more focused on the bandwagons.

its pretty clear imo that ur just hopping from easy wagon to easy wagon

- -

VOTE: gammagooey

?

hes stinky imo

These posts suck and have vibes of Marci trying to emulate her town game
Her entire day 2 just reads like someone trying to manufacture content out no actual. A bunch of questions to other people and a naked vote.

why r u acting like its abnormal for me to do this when im completly lost? i do this all the time

Oh cool, she just dropped it entirely
Marci's favourite hobby is throwing slight scumreads on her partners and not following through with them...

nah, thats my 2nd fave hobby.

also like lol "snippet from a past game" ur using a game thats over a year old and acting like i couldn't have changed my style at all since then (iirc my first scumgame on site), like maybe i haven't yeah, but why not use a more recent game like holiday dance party to try and make a case on why im scum? i think ur just tunneling on me and trying to justify ur read in any way that you can.

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

i dont like this post

why was datisi town... i really thought he was scum i feel so useless maybe i shouldnt be so one minded

we all know you're scum Marci you can drop the act

why dont u vote me then if ur so certain? :>
i know for a fact im town so lolol get better reads cakez

These quotes from marci on cakez just look like bad bussing to me.

[gorilla]

oh for fuck's sake, forgot to check for spoiler tags in the quotes

[gorilla]

His iso seems pretty set in stone on Marci too for like the entire game, bussing probable.

Agreed, marci called him scum a bunch and never ever made a serious push against him or voted him when she had a chance. Very toothless.

[gorilla]

The last prism game I played in had scum-in-the-hood as a mechanic; so I was looking hard at kovu and fireisredsir, but couldn't make it work.

I literally didn’t, Cakez added me to a hood, and I needed yall to not yeet him so we could get someone else in the hood, so don’t come at me for “faking a clear” when you have Luke vig shoot Mala who was claiming RR clear.

[gorilla]

I think the way Cakez is setting up me/Marci as a scumpair while she's receiving votes might actually mean they're S/S here and I don't like the shade.
Though Cakez' later posts regarding Marci don't really feel partnered so he might just be wrong

TMI?

There's a lot of worse Meuh posts on marci but this bit struck me as particularly notable from her ISO. I think this is 2/3 right here.

[gorilla]

Bell, Rhyme and Reason
fireisredsir, Kovu
Fey, Val89, Gammagooey

Enchant, Dunnstral
Meuh, SirCakez


fire is one I maybe double check but this feels decent?

[gorilla]

fey probably just hard town based on the way she claimed and meuh trying to slime her today, val probably just town from cakez's reaction and role, just don't want to get ahead of myself...again. they get bumped up on red flips there.

[gorilla]

Bell, why are you confirmed again? Obviously not asking you to put if you haven’t said why yet, but if you did can you just tell me

He friendly neighbored VP Baltar, who is dead and flipped town.

[gorilla]

nah i like my gamma vote much more
why would i jump on the dunn wagon when i have all i need right here?

might eventually depending on if dunn seems scummier than gamma but like
gamma > dunn rn imo

Non-negligible chance Dunn is the third and this game is just a wrap. I could probably bump gammagooey up a tier from marci's treatment of him, was firing from the hip a bit

[gorilla]

Ugh I really wish mala hadn’t shot dwlee tho

Every single nightkill last night was legitimately regrettable. But we pick up the pieces and move on.

[gorilla]

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

Do you think it means anything in terms of her alignment this game?

Marci and I tend to read each other poorly, especially early on in games. A whole lot of inaccurate scumreading.
I still don't think it's unrealistic for Marci to feel neut about me here though.
What does feel off about it is her using this read on me to push back on Datisi. Even if she does feel neutral about me, I don't think she says this:

i also *shocker here* dont agree with meuh feeling off yet, i think she hasnt done much alignment indicative yet and i think ur hating on her for her basic personality

This does not really seem like a way to go after Datisi that I expect town!Marci to do.

Honestly my approach on reading Marci as of late is to just not do it on day 1
It's not worth the effort in forming a read that'll probably be poor and I'd rather spend that time and energy somewhere else.
I think I'm decent at reading Marci later on in the game with flips having happened so I'd rather do it then. (viewtopic.php?p=12746354#p12746354)
There's a need for it here though because of the wagon on her, and while I don't feel great about her, it's not as strong of a feeling as the one on Lavar.

Also I just found out you can highlight a part of a post before quoting it and it'll only quote that part??? That's so useful how did I not know this

if Marci is scum this is probably scum too

VOTE: takotsubo syndrome
Definitely want more there

what is the "more" you are looking for? more content? it was like a few hours into the game when you posted that

More content, more justification for the vote, anything telling of their alignment. I think their vote on Datisi was scummy. I wanted to throw a vote on them for pressure's sake.

however this is a solid answer to my question

Heh. This again feels like pretty basic distancing.

Kinda think Gamma could fit as a partner to Cakez/Marci too. Gave reads that matter one was a scumlean on Marci, toe lean on Cakez. Usual places to slot partners I feel but dunno if Gamma would feel a need to take harsher stances.

I think there's decent reason to believe it's dunn and I lean gammagooey being less likely because of marci's OMGUS against him.

[gorilla]

i dont scumread you for that anymore, i have diff reasons now!!

Which is what?

Datisis posts are very mean spirited by nature,
i think hes overly self aware too, to the point where its scummy!! like hes like oH iM jUsT aWkWaRd!! but like DOES THAT NOT SOUND LIKE EXCUSES? like once is eh enough, but i remember him doing that more than once so its certainly eyebrow raising!!

This is fair and I can see what you are talking about

i think him attacking me and val is v sketchy too, in the way he did it, hes kinda reminiscent of this one dude i met before. even tho i know they cant be the same person i see it as a viable scum strategy. Like i said before, datisis goal this game is just to outscream anyone scumreading him, thats why it reminds me of him. Hes convincing just like this dude was, but deep down i KNOW  its same vibes!! is it not obvious?!?!? because of datisis BANSHEE SCREAMS u guys dont want to oppose him, but very clearly im not scared of the devil (:

I don't think this is true and don't like this part of your argument

He also keeps bandwagoning otherpeoples votes, i think its just to be buddy buddy with them and make himself look cool and good in their eyes, hes obviously set himself up to succeed and YALL ARE JUST BIASED!! The easiest votes in the world which is what hes been doing all game, is not *that* hard for scum to make.

I didn't get the impression that they were bandwagoning while reading, I didn't check to see how true your statement here is after reading this though.

very clearly using bad logic wHy ArE yOu UsInG tHe NoTeS pT bAltEr?!?!?

Agree with this

yDrAsSeS uSuAlLy mOrE eXcItEd As ToWn!@

Don't think this one is bad (not sure whether it is true though)

Marci doesn't seem to have any idea what to do now that Datisi is dead. I don't think that is a good look since as I pointed above this would have been a surprise flip for mafia.

Lean town on VP Baltar, Meuh, and Marci. First two because I like some of what they have posted, last one because I liked Luke's recent posts about how this is town marci

Some weak pressure on marci initially but hides behind Lukewarm's townread on her. Classic partner behavior.

[gorilla]

Gamma, do you think that Marci gave three reads in a place of pressure that did not include her partner?

Wouldn't be that surprised, but also think you're the one person in there most likely to flip scum

It also wasn't her "these are my 3 strongest scum reads" because if so then she'd probably feel forced to include me on it b/c she tunneled on me instead of trying to play the game all of day 2 until some actual pressure finally got put on her, if I remember right it was "these are 3 people who can possibly be elim'd instead of me", which is gonna be more reflective of other people's reads and wagons at the time and who CAN die, not just "oh let me throw out 3 reads and put a scum on them for distancing"

I don't like the votes on Fey right now. Who are your other scum reads?

[gorilla]

@meuh, why doesn’t Marci drop a SR on three town right before dying?

I think she's distancing-oriented as scum and I doubt she wouldn't take the opportunity to do at a time where it's very likely she's flipping.

@Gorilla: What if 1287 is just correct? There's benefit for scum to tie a townie to a scummy player and I think with the similarity in our play, it's an easy sell.
Actually considering Kovu was mixing Marci and I up later, I wouldn't be surprised if Cakez was setting up my mislim in hood. (they had a hood on day 2 right?)
I wish I would roll scum with Marci, that sounds fun actually! The scum chat gossip would be 10/10

Okay, I think it's entirely possible you're right about cakez but that doesn't make you town in and of itself? I'm not terribly fussed about that, we work through things one at a time and if it's not you we can figure out who the other is.

Gorilla, who were you on last night?

@meuh, is the distancing-oriented thing a meta read or a personality read or is it based on her play this game?

~Rhyme

Protection on kovu, invictus on dunnstral. I somewhat anticipated scum would dodge protection so I didn't target Bell.

[gorilla]

I cannot agree with those reads. The marci lim never happens without Kovu and she has zero reason to call out a partner and throw a fit about how no one will listen to her like that. The suggestion is outrageous. I think you're significantly more likely to find a partner among those waiting in the wings, the ones who were fos-ing her occasionally but not applying strong pressure in her direction.

[gorilla]

I cannot agree with those reads. The marci lim never happens without Kovu and she has zero reason to call out a partner and throw a fit about how no one will listen to her like that. The suggestion is outrageous. I think you're significantly more likely to find a partner among those waiting in the wings, the ones who were fos-ing her occasionally but not applying strong pressure in her direction.

This was at gammagooey, to be clear. wasting a post on EBWOP because screw it

[gorilla]

I guess my biggest fear at this moment in time is that, given how much town power there is in he setup, I could be wrong about the number of scum in it and there were actually five to begin with - that would give scum fairly decent incentive to align themselves and try to push a town over, given how many kills we have missed already. This doesn't necessarily change the math for ehow many kills we have but it does mean we need to be a little more cautious.

[gorilla]

12 alive
elim
nk
invictus

9 alive
elim
nk
invictus

6 alive
elim
nk
invictus

3 alive
elim


We have...7 kills left, assuming there's nothing that can block an invictus.

That's actually kind of absurd.

[gorilla]

@gorilla what about Fey’s claim makes her hard town?

~Rhyme

That's partly preflipping which I probavbly shouldn't do, it just doesn't much seem like claim that's useful for scum to invent.

I'll admit there's a possibility I could be wrong on her at this point in time but I think other people have played scummier. I would prefer to work toward eliminating the common scumreads that fit in most worlds today, if that makes sense?

[gorilla]

normally i would prob just pick someone to trust on it but my mind goes to dunn and idk if i trust him lol

Reason is busy-ish, if you wanna hear from him then I can try to ping him to answer this specifically or I can talk to him about it and report back

as of our most recent talk we're happy to go ahead with a vote, but we're also including gamma in our lim pool unless someone can be more persuasive on town!gamma than dubious associatives with marci

~Rhyme

I'm fine with him being in the POE given the amount of kills we have left but wouldn't go for him today. Feels like a candidate if the tinfoil world 5th scum is true.

[gorilla]

I’m not *super* sure, but I don’t think gorilla is lying either.

yea agreed on gorilla, esp with the reaction to marci's claim. that would be bold to fake counterclaim with 2 protective lmao

it doesn't make a ton of sense for val to fakeclaim but i did consider the possibility of it being a scum trueclaim, if the hoods are clean (which they might be? idk, im not sure on cakez being maf yet, and im p sure kovu is town) then it could make sense to have a scum TA to find the hoods + possibly you if thats included. ive been mostly townreading them off play this game tho so meh

Yeah, I think Val has been fine. It doesn't feel like he's been acting toward any sort of scum agenda, just trying to figure things out on his own.


VOTE: cakez

I am uncomfortable with Fey being the default wagon. I think mechanically cakez makes sense as scum in addition to his play around marci looking like distancing. I also think a team with cakez on it has significant reason to kill Baltar.

[gorilla]

UNVOTE:

wasn't aware of the vote count, was laying my vote down because I thought we needed a counter wagon to fey.

Enough from me today, probably back later, will try to present thoughts in an organized manner if it might help.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[gorilla]

I'm leaning pretty hard towards a scumteam of Fey+Dunn+a mystery 4th atm. (I don't think 5 scum is likely and even if that's the case I don't think it really changes anything I'm about to go over).
For Fey, first I wanna say that I think that them getting emotional today could come from either alignment and that regardless of their alignment the position they're in this game is stressful. I don't think Detective fits nearly as well as Val's Traffic Analyst claim does given Bell's Friendly Neighbor+other Neighbors/izer that have been claimed and I don't get why she'd investigate Datisi in particular over other players when marci & VPB specifically were scumreading/commenting on Dats by the end of day 1 and she'd need to target specifically the scum player making the kill. She pushed marci-town early and then mostly dropped out of the game aside from pushing Dwlee day 2. The lack of activity is actually pretty null imo, but I brought up that day that I agreed with her point that relying on LLD's reads to semi-clear people was a bad idea for marci particularly when she was pushing for Dwlee scum, and that never got acknowledged by her even as marci continued doing basically nothing, which should have fit her idea of marci freezing up. And there's the random marci reads on Fey that Meuh pointed out, town with no reasoning d1 and then swapping to scum for a "weird post" d2 2088 and explaining later that it's because of her vote on the Dwlee wagon 2216, which unless I'm missing something was only mentioned by marci here before that:

guys tbh just looking at dwlees iso in that game and remembering my memory of how he acts as town

i feel like he does more as scum than he has here

Like individually I think a few of those could come from Fey-town, but I don't think it all does together.

For Dunn, it mostly just comes down to me still hating his day 1 and early day 2 play. His question to Cakez just asking "what about me?" in response to Cakez saying she (marci) is not really scumhunting is bad, and yes I know Dunn will say that he wasn't voting anyone either, the point is that thinking marci wasn't scumhunting was perfectly reasonable and true and Dunn decided to pick at the fact that he wasn't voting either instead of addressing the actually valid part of Cakez's argument. He also talks to/about marci a bit & discusses her arguments for Datisi scum (you can look up these on Meuh's 2233 instead of me pulling up the same posts) but doesn't actually make a stand on her alignment until day 2 (w/ post 1234), before that it's just pokes and questions without an actual read on marci being shared, and later he goes back on it for Luke's reasons to townread marci instead of having any of his own. I still think a ton of his posts through the first two days feel more like nitpicks and arguments he's trying to win or look good in than actually get reads on understand the points of who he's talking to, and I think that type of behavior is much more likely to come from scum than town.

I'm not particularly sold that Fey is mafia because the points of "was wrong on marci" and "bad investigation targets" can easily come from town playing unoptimally, and my feelings run more toward disengaged town than anything else right now. The point of detective not making as much sense as TA doesn't do a lot for me, my guess is given the potential amount of kills in this setup, there was likely some redundancy built into the PR mix, and detective can get a false positive on the vig so it would seem to theoretically fit as well as traffic analyst in the sense of it generating false positives. I could of course be wrong but my gut feeling from her posting is that she's not a hit, much in the way my gut told me dwlee was not mafia despite not having strong evidence for townreading them.


I greatly prefer Dunn for today's vote, and agree with the points you've made on him.

[gorilla]

Every single one of my scumreads is getting hard shielded by people and it is getting to be incredibly tiresome. I will try to find a working compromise but if that's not possible I'm going to mentally check out of this game.

[gorilla]

Prodge.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Gorilla

Imo, probably will again be solo, but will stay here before gorilla claiming n2.

I already said it was on Kovu at the start of this day. I'm not sure what you were hoping to get out of this.

Can sircakez die now since he is not producing anything.
And thereby he is not reaching mena’s request to town tell.
Pinkie swear this is the last time I’ll be insistent this game.

VOTE: cakez

Sure. I'm perfectly willing to follow you and trust you more than most here.

[gorilla]

Imo, probably will again be solo, but will stay here before gorilla claiming n2.

What are you hoping to achieve by having gorilla claim their N2?

Can sircakez die now since he is not producing anything.

+1.

Understand why people don't protect claimed vigilantes.

Because he was shielding my scumreads and generally not being helpful, and I found it far more important to protect a strong townread whose judgment I actually found trustworthy. We had a number of likely town players off the flip yesterday and I wanted to protect one that would actually be useful.

[gorilla]

It's a good thing no one actually cares what you think.

[gorilla]

Has anything even remotely worth commenting on happened in the past 8 pages? (this is a general question, not directed at Enchant)

[gorilla]

Everyone assured team is Dunn/Cakez/Enchant and how game is already won.

If it's any consolation, I still believe you are town.

[gorilla]

I had thought her posting today was absurdly scummy but had basically abandoned all hope of anyone caring to hear it.

VOTE: Meuh

[gorilla]

I am tired.

[gorilla]

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

I'll do whatever. Every single target is being met with utterly absurd resistance, so it makes me feel as though there's very little point in trying anymore. I'm frankly sick of it.

At this point I'd rather just let someone in the POE dictate the elimination, with the agreement that if they're wrong everyone should invictus them.