Newbie 1625: American Spring - Day 5 (DL - 08/31)

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I'm a little unclear here- notscience, are you saying your vote on VeeGee for saying "hi" wasn't just at random? I see you've linked to other games where you've caught scum based off RVS stage, but saying "hi" is the most innocuous, neutral thing a player can say. So I guess I'm wondering if you're voting VeeGee just for the sake of having an early bandwagon (which, from what I understand, is good for getting out of RVS) or because you actually find "hi" suspicious.

Also confused at how JoramanVugt can find somebody "very, very suspicious" not even 10 posts into the game. This whole thing reeks of overanalysis.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Let me answer your question with another-

How do you expect to get out of RVS with a bandwagon for the sake of getting RVS?

I'm serious about my vote. I know it's strange, but given how much we've had thus far, that is the avenue I believe scum is most likely found behind. Maybe it's overanalysis, I've been known to do it before, but I've also been right when overanalyzing before, so.

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

but saying "hi" is the most innocuous, neutral thing a player can say.

I think that might be the point, that scum would say the most neutral thing possible.

Wouldn't a scum want to appear town, rather than neutral?

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game

that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting

.

Why does your vote remain?

Because he's not in any real danger of being lynched and I don't think anybody else is worth voting for now that we're out of RVS. Also laziness/neglect- it didnt't even occur to me to unvote yet this early on.

[HenryCabotLodge]

unvote: VeeGee

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

Ultimately my issue is, if you know that there is a bandwagon on you for the sake of bandwagoning, it's hard to garner any real reaction out of it. While yes, we can see who joins and opposes it, what separates the "LOLBANDWAGON" from a scum hiding? What separates "I'm not feeling this wagon" from scum avoiding the wagon?

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

Thoughts?

I'm not a newbie.

Does green mean "town" and is yellow "null"? On your read of Joram, you say: no reason to think scum. However, you give no reason for reading him town.

Other than that, I am amazed at how fast you develop reads.

I agree- I'm confused as to how anyone has hard and fast reads at this point.

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point (my vote was completely random, unlike notsciences's who took issue with the word "hi"). I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play (whether they would want to appear neutral, town, etc.). This is probably good for scum because it's keeping things unclear and allowing people to throw up poorly thought out reads early on and seeing what sticks. How anyone can have a read firm enough already to be ok with somebody's lynch is absurd to me.

I think the main culprits of this so far is Thespio. I didn't like his list of reads and thought him being "ok with my lynch" was reckless. He seems too aggressive for this early stage of the game- prodding people for reads and such. I think it's possible he may be interested in reads so he can attach himself to one that has steam and get a quick lynch.

Everyone else (except maybe notscience) seems like they're feeling things out which is normal to me.

[HenryCabotLodge]

How anyone can have a read firm enough already to be ok with somebody's lynch is absurd to me.

Why is that?

To me is seems natural for a person to want to lynch their strongest scumread. Why does the point of the game have anything to do with it?

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

I still think that HenryCabot is kinda suspicious seeing has in his first post he immediately votes someone up.
I think it would be good to put the pressure on him and maybe even force him to roleclaim

First, like Micc said, why aren't you voting me. Second, you'll notice in my last post I unvoted VeeGee. Third, that vote was completely meaningless because I didn't think we would move out of the random voting stage so quickly. Fourth, I don't see how a roleclaim from anyone this early would benefit the town at all, especially considering the only role somebody would probably claim at this point is Vanilla Townie, even if they are a town power role. This seems a little too obvious to be scum rolefishing so I'm not going to vote just yet. I am interested to see what you think my hypothetical roleclaim would do to help the town.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

Can you clarify what you mean by "for the sake of progress"? As much as I like having a vote taken off me, I'm really confused. You seemed suspicious enough of me to be ok with lynching me as early as post 37 in the thread and have spent most of your effort making arguments against me. I'm surprised you'd unvote me if I'm so scummy. Is it because you realize your arguments against me are fabrication and you can see they're not gaining any traction with the town?

I'll be interested to see if JoramanVugt removes his vote as well since he imitated Thespio's actions/ reasoning last time. If he decides to keep his vote on me, I think we should probe further into his logic.

I'm seeing a solid town effort from Akuseru- inquisitive and impartial. Same goes for notscience and StubbsKVM but I have a better gut feeling about Akuseru.

Everyone else has not posted enough for me to have an opinion on them.

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE: HenryCabotLodge

For the sake of progress, I will remove my ballot, but im still keeping my eye on you Henry.Can we turn our attention to those who have been lurking? anyone else have scum reads page 5?

Can you clarify what you mean by "for the sake of progress"? As much as I like having a vote taken off me, I'm really confused. You seemed suspicious enough of me to be ok with lynching me as early as post 37 in the thread and have spent most of your effort making arguments against me. I'm surprised you'd unvote me if I'm so scummy. Is it because you realize your arguments against me are fabrication and you can see they're not gaining any traction with the town?

Im still ok lynching you, its obvious that you are scum, but spamming the chatboard is allowing people to lurk as well. So I will brand you as 'Scum' and come back to you once everyone inputs.

This doesn't make any sense. It's "obvious" that I'm scum, so you're taking your vote off of me? If I'm that obvious about my scumminess why should it matter if there are lurkers? On top of that, I wasn't even remotely in any danger of being lynched quickly with two votes on me, so it's not like we were in some race against the clock to hear from everybody (which according to you, doesn't even matter since I'm so clearly and obviously scum). The only way this makes sense to me is if you realize your "case" against me was transparent garbage and a failed attempt to push a lynch quickly and now you're trying to save face and not look inconsistent.

VOTE: Thespio

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As far as my reads, I think Thespio is scum and possibly JoramanVugt, if that's what you're looking for.

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

Yes I remember reading your outline of my posts. I also remember responding to them and explaining my logic in post 88, which I'll quote here:

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

Instead of responding to or engaging with me on this, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge them and just double down on what you had already been saying. I don't think you have much faith in your arguments since you removed your vote on me. I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As for my reads being crap, you're scum because you declared me to be "obvious" scum after making a career out of castigating me and then removed your vote on me claiming that it was in the interest of hearing from more people. I think it's because you realize your case on me failed to gain any momentum and you don't want to seem unreasonable pushing me when nobody else is doing so.

JoramvanVugt is scummy because he voted me for voting somebody in my first post (something which he also did- except mine was in the random voting stage, If you're unfamiliar that's where random votes are cast) then he proceeded to regurgitate the arguments you presented against me. Moreover, he also expressed a desire for me to roleclaim on the third page when I wasn't in any danger of being lynched which is asinine and would be completely detrimental to the town.

This is more than just OMGUS which is what you seem to be intimating.

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

The only things that have "changed with the wind" this game are your votes and what rules of grammar you decide to follow.

By all means continue to not engage my points against you and dismiss my logic as "indecisive." The town will be the judge of who presents the more solid reasoning in this feud.

Ive already presented how inaccurate you are, and your ad hominem just supports the fact you have nothing to say. Your logic consists of:

Lets randomly bandwagon on people, dont question me or try to read people, but random voting is bad, and so is theorizing, but here is my theory.

You have already voted, unvoted, voted again, and still have yet to tell us what you think about the lurkers. You dismiss them all the same.

I was all for examining others D1, but you would prefer we lynch you instead, what are you trying to hide? dismissing the lurkers and now trying to end D1 without questioning them?


And your reads^ are crap, why are they scum? or is because we voted you? because if that's all you can provide then you have no case.

Reminder:

1st - You Random vote:

Spoiler:

VOTE: VeeGee

I don't care for your tone.

2nd - You attempt to justify random bandwagons:

Spoiler:

I expect bandwagoning for its own sake to work because there are different reactions to a bandwagon that we can work through as a town. We can see who hops on opportunistically, we can see who opposes it, we can see who posts a thesis on the legitimacy of the bandwagon, etc.- the point is that bandwagoning is a viable, and beneficial, way to get out of RVS. I'm not sure how beneficial it is to meticulously dissect the very first post by a player in the game that amounts to nothing more than a simple greeting.

3rd - You tell us not to analyze behavior:

Spoiler:

I think everybody has different views as to what "townie", "neutral", and "scummy" play is. I don't think it does much good to get bogged down in semantics and personal definitions. I think the only thing that works in a game like this is finding logical inconsistencies and examining voting patterns. You can do any amount of intellectual gymnastics to make any person's play seem townie or scummy.

4th - You tell us bandwagons are good:

Spoiler:

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions.

5th - You tell us Random Voting is bad and recant, thus closing your random bandwagon:

Spoiler:

I unvoted VeeGee because it's silly to have a random vote at this point

Yes I remember reading your outline of my posts. I also remember responding to them and explaining my logic in post 88, which I'll quote here:

Thespio, please cite where I pushed for a random lynch. I placed a random vote, since it was the random voting stage of the game. If you're not familiar, that's when people cast random votes. This game is unusual in that it moved out of that stage very quickly. I did advocate early bandwagons, but never lynches. There's a difference between the two- a bandwagon does not always end in a lynch.

It is natural to want your strongest scumread to be lynched, but we're not far out of the random vote stage and people have mostly posted only in vague generalities- like I've said, seems reckless to me and an early lynch without much to go on would be something I think scum would push for.

Its what you pushed for!

A wagon with nothing to go on is different from one predicated one somebody building a case or whatever, but pressure is still pressure and it forces people to have opinions

Then you post:

I see some flimsy reads and unhelpful theorizing on how scum play

after you theorize!

So you have a problem with me giving a legitimate reason for having an early bandwagon? My "theorizing" was a direct response to another player asking me my opinion. It's different from the people who posted "I think scum will play like such and such" of their own accord. Don't draw an equivalence.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

Yes I started a game by random voting in the random voting stage. If you're unfamiliar, that's the stage where we cast random votes. You must have had a town of clairvoyants if they would've lynched me on page 4. Though I doubt their abilities if they're swayed by your arguments.

It looks there's some confusion in what I wanted as far as the bandwagon. I did not want to lynch somewhere at random and I don't think anything I've said has indicated otherwise. My vote (which has been off for like 3 posts no2) was at random. I cast it in the random voting stage. If you're not familiar, that's where random votes are cast. In my (limited) experience, an early bandwagon on a player is a good way to get out of the random voting stage and spur real discussion and rarely, if ever, ends up in a lynch. A lynch based off a random vote bandwagon is stupid. Speaking of stupid, I found it interesting how JoramanVugt basically aped all of Thespio's arguments against me (with the edifying addition of "idk you just seem to suspicious to me"). Could be a possible connection there.

Instead of responding to or engaging with me on this, you obstinately refuse to acknowledge them and just double down on what you had already been saying. I don't think you have much faith in your arguments since you removed your vote on me. I called you on it now we're in some kind of pissing match here. We're obviously at an impasse here- I think your arguments are dogshit and you refuse to acknowledge my explanations. Like I said before, the town can judge who comes out better in this.

I just re-read the thread and realized post 88 is actually before Thespio submitted his post by post analysis of me- just wanted to point that out in the interest of honesty. I think it still explains my thought process pretty well and why I posted what I had up to that point.

Akuseru, what do you think of Thespio removing his vote even though I'm "obvious" scum and wasn't in danger of being lynched?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Yea we really need to hear from VeeGee. Also something substantial from Micc would be good- his only post in 2 days was "prod dodge."

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge No but everyone focusing on you allows people to lurk, you still have no actual reads, just generalizing someone who is clearly town as town. You are indecisive, change opinions like none other. If you want me to support your lynch then thats fine I will, the only reason you have to vote me is because I unvoted you? Thats fine, D1 Lynch will be you or I, because at this point you are a hindrance to town, and I dont see you ever helping because your view changes with the wind.

Can you explain the "change opinions" part? I don't see it.
Your push for a policy lynch is pretty bad, especially because this is a newbie game. We're on page 5, give him some time to get in the game and develop some reads.

I agree with this.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Newbies replace out all the time.

Replace outs are null.

I agree, I don't think that's a legitimate way to scumhunt.

I like the first part of stoz's response post to Bulbazoor- voting based off the post he cited and the vague reference to "neutralizing" seems like a stretch to me. However, I do think stoz got overly defensive in the last two paragraphs of his post. For one thing, I don't really think there was a lot of pressure on VeeGee before he replaced out- he had two votes on him (three away from a lynch) and people's suspicion of him seemed to stem solely from his lack of posting. I think stoz characterizes the pressure on VeeGee as being more than what it actually was.

I was interested to see that Bulbazoor didn't have more to say in his post. I had at least expected a comment on the exchange between myself and Thespio. The fact that Bulbazoor had enough confidence to place a vote leads me to believe he read through the entire game so I'd be interested to see if he has any other reads.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As for my reads being crap, you're scum because you declared me to be "obvious" scum after making a career out of castigating me and then removed your vote on me claiming that it was in the interest of hearing from more people. I think it's because you realize your case on me failed to gain any momentum and you don't want to seem unreasonable pushing me when nobody else is doing so.

JoramvanVugt is scummy because he voted me for voting somebody in my first post (something which he also did- except mine was in the random voting stage, If you're unfamiliar that's where random votes are cast) then he proceeded to regurgitate the arguments you presented against me. Moreover, he also expressed a desire for me to roleclaim on the third page when I wasn't in any danger of being lynched which is asinine and would be completely detrimental to the town. The roleclaim attemp from joram could be rolefishing, but then again he could have been making a newbie mistake.

This is more than just OMGUS which is what you seem to be intimating.

I think this is not a good argument on joram because newbies can do that and there never is any telling on what newbies can do. I still think that omgus is not necessarily a scumtell or a towntell. I think you are on to something about ttheespio since the unvote can give us a tell on his alignment. I hate how you went overly defensive on the accusations though. It just seemed weird like how you react to simple accusations.

Yea I'm taking Joram's newbieness into account which is part of why I'm voting for Thespio over him. I don't think I went overly defensive on the accusations- I was called "obvious scum" barely a few pages into the game based on a complete misrepresentation of my posts.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I like that Micc is trying to spur discussion, but I think he's harping too much on Stubbs' vote, then non-vote, of VeeGee. I can see Stubbs' reasoning for the vote. The game was at a standstill and there were a lot of lurkers. He didn't necessarily scumread VeeGee, but the lurking was irksome and putting some pressure on him wasn't a bad way to get somebody in the game who hadn't said much yet but was still in an interesting (remember VeeGee was the subject of the first bandwagon). From what I gather, Micc's misgivings come from the fact that he doesn't think you should vote a player you are not actively scumreading, but I don't think the vote was anti-town.

How isnt it?

Its a way to put a vote in play that wont raise many eyebrows. That way he looks like he is scum hunting and hopefully gets town credit.

Unless you're buying that voting newbies after they appear to have flaked is a productive way to make them post?

I'm not sure there's any way to vote that doesn't raise eyebrows. Votes are prominent and noticeable on top of the fact that we get vote counts every page. And who was sure that VeeGee had flaked? I get that newbies replace out of games all the time, but it was just as likely at that point that he was actively lurking.

Its sad you are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

It's almost heartening to see Thespio adopt his arrogant tone with somebody else. In a weird way, it makes him look more town because why would scum be so confrontational and prominent when they're trying not to draw suspicion to themselves? Maybe it's wifom, but scum Thespio seems a little less likely than it did before. I am however, annoyed at some of the things here. Thespio what makes Micc's questions "badgering" instead of pro-town discussion? Second, the last sentence of your post is the same reason why I had voted you in the first place (not voting the player you declare to be scummy). Are you saying that it's an illegitimate position to not have your vote on somebody you are prepared to publicly call scum?

[HenryCabotLodge]

I like that Micc is trying to spur discussion, but I think he's harping too much on Stubbs' vote, then non-vote, of VeeGee. I can see Stubbs' reasoning for the vote. The game was at a standstill and there were a lot of lurkers. He didn't necessarily scumread VeeGee, but the lurking was irksome and putting some pressure on him wasn't a bad way to get somebody in the game who hadn't said much yet but was still in an interesting (remember VeeGee was the subject of the first bandwagon). From what I gather, Micc's misgivings come from the fact that he doesn't think you should vote a player you are not actively scumreading, but I don't think the vote was anti-town.

How isnt it?

Its a way to put a vote in play that wont raise many eyebrows. That way he looks like he is scum hunting and hopefully gets town credit.

Unless you're buying that voting newbies after they appear to have flaked is a productive way to make them post?

I'm not sure there's any way to vote that doesn't raise eyebrows. Votes are prominent and noticeable on top of the fact that we get vote counts every page. And who was sure that VeeGee had flaked? I get that newbies replace out of games all the time, but it was just as likely at that point that he was actively lurking.

Its sad you are so obtrusive, Honestly dealing with you isnt worth the trouble, set an example if needs be, but doing so by showing that bullying anyone who questions you looks like you are trying really hard to appear town. Rather then questioning my ability or want to play this game we should probably look at how you have played, you prod dodged until you were called out, once called out you immediately began badgering everyone. If you think its stubbs why haven't you voted him?

It's almost heartening to see Thespio adopt his arrogant tone with somebody else. In a weird way, it makes him look more town because why would scum be so confrontational and prominent when they're trying not to draw suspicion to themselves? Maybe it's wifom, but scum Thespio seems a little less likely than it did before. I am however, annoyed at some of the things here. Thespio what makes Micc's questions "badgering" instead of pro-town discussion? Second, the last sentence of your post is the same reason why I had voted you in the first place (not voting the player you declare to be scummy). Are you saying that it's an illegitimate position to not have your vote on somebody you are prepared to publicly call scum?

You are obviously not caught up, He had voted him, and its badgering because the question was answered and micc asked it again,And my tone was well placed if you read, where have you been?

Sorry, I was busy having a real life. Anyway, upon reread, your tone seems misplaced if anything. Why are you so intent on defending Stubbs when he's fully capable of doing it himself? Also, whether Micc had voted when you asked the question is irrelevant- you were under the impression that he hadn't voted for him, otherwise you wouldn't have asked him. So I'll ask again, do you think it's an illegitimate position to not be voting somebody you publicly find scummy?

[HenryCabotLodge]

And i see reads from akuseru so im not sure what you issue there is either. As far as i remember he never actually dodged a question about what his reads were.

Akuseru, do you have any scumreads?

I do.

I understand you want to move on, but when will you address Micc's accusation?

Yes he did.

Do you not consider post 206 to be a post of what his reads are?

Sorry, I was busy having a real life. Anyway, upon reread, your tone seems misplaced if anything. Why are you so intent on defending Stubbs when he's fully capable of doing it himself? Also, whether Micc had voted when you asked the question is irrelevant- you were under the impression that he hadn't voted for him, otherwise you wouldn't have asked him. So I'll ask again, do you think it's an illegitimate position to not be voting somebody you publicly find scummy?

Engaging with you is obviously a waste of time, after further looking into your past 'game' I see you always play this way. I'm willing to admit your fault may be due to newbieness, Seeing as you havent finished a game yet... anyways, Please list who you are reading as scum.

Oh my gosh Thespio- please accept my apologies for wasting your precious time asking you questions about your gameplay! You're right, Thespio, I'm a fraud. I'm just a lost babe crying out in the wilderness who has no idea how to scumhunt. If I get anything out of this game it will be only be because of the fact that I learned from Thespio, the scumhunting master. I believe the first lesson of scumhunting with Thespio is posting fascile "reads" with little substance to them. Apparently constantly giving one sentence breakdowns of every player in the game is automatic pro-town play. How stupid of me! Here I thought mafia was about making substantive cases against people and working through them via dialogue with the town. I guess it's all about "gut feelings" and "being active." Thank you for having pity on me, Thespio. I will dutifully post my scumreads now:

Thespio- I'm still voting you and it has nothing to do with your dismissive tone towards me. You never gave me a proper explanation of why you removed your vote on me after I was "obvious scum." In the post I quoted above that you were replying to from me you implied that you think not voting for somebody after publicly calling them scum is an illegitimate reason to vote them. This was the one of the initial reasons for my vote on you. It seems like a logical discrepancy but apparently it's a "waste of time" to ask you about it. You imply that my "newbieness" makes me a bad player but not scummy in your latest post of illuminating "reads" (212). While I'm glad you think I just stink at mafia and am not scum, I have to ask why your vote is still on me if you're currently townreading me. Also, I wonder why you give JoramvanVugt such a wide berth when he and I are apparently on the same level of play. It makes me think of the time he voted me directly after you did while giving almost the same exact reasons (post 86). I guess I'm just a little surprised you don't adopt you supercilious tone when dealing with him and even seem to be coaching him along at points (211) trying to pry some pro-town behavior out of him despite his obvious ineptitude. Given your interactions with almost everyone else, your dealings with JoramvanVugt are surprisingly benign especially given the fact that he has been the biggest lurker this whole game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think lurking is the greatest possible offense against the town (apart from being me of course). Why the kid gloves with JoramvanVugt?

JoramvanVugt- I think it's pretty clear from my post on Thespio what I think of him. I feel bad, because he seems genuinely lost but at some point you have to do something. I wouldn't be surprised if him and Thespio were a scum pair (Thespio in that case being shackled to a corpse). In any event, we need to see more from him.

Stoz- I liked Akuseru's case against him. In a game where posting "reads" seems to be the ultimate pro-town gesture he pops in and posts one that's pretty noncommittal. He even attaches arbitrary percentages to them to give them an air of legitimacy. While lurking is not necessarily a sure sign of scum, it becomes an issue when the player doesn't come back with anything substantive. I believe that falls into the realm of "coasting" which seems way more scummy to me. I'll be interested to see how he replies now that the pressure is on a bit. Those reads are his last post, I see. The rest of his iso is underwhelming- the only other thing of note is his defending himself against a charge that he doesn't look to "clarify things" as he had claimed.

Stubbs- I'm not a huge fan of Stubbs defensiveness, but I'd be a hyprocrite if I was going to scumread him for that. My biggest gripe with him is his association with Thespio who, for whatever reason, took it upon himself to defend Stubbs and declare questioning of him to be a "waste of time." Now I know Stubbs didn't expressly ask for this and it could just as easily be another installment in a long series of displays of arrogance by Thespio, but it still didn't sit right with me. I do see now that Thespio is suspicious of him (?) and he is taking issue with it. I guess this isn't a scumread so much as light suspicion.

I like both Micc and Akuseru- they're both actively questioning people and taking the time to develop cases and SOLID reads. Bulbazoor I need to take more time to look at and read his iso. notscience is neutral to me I need to see more from him.

[HenryCabotLodge]

You never gave me a proper explanation of why you removed your vote on me after I was "obvious scum."

You are either blind or stupid, probably both, in case you didn't catch it.

By focusing on you people were able to lurk, to avoid that, I removed my vote to ask them what they thought. You need to re-read the game, Dont go AFK and then come back acting like you kept up.

Its obvious to me after reading your part match where you also abandoned, that you are just a crap player, now please, please, re read the game. And I have cast doubt on Joram BTW, but you would need to read to see that, right?

If you are this hard headed, im tempted to commit suicide just to leave the game, you are honestly not helping town you are hurting it.

Oh and incase you missed it:

Please keep slapping your face until you knock yourself out, Thespio. Having your vote on me did not prevent you from questioning other people. You can question other people while having me, the "obvious scum", still be your vote. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I was in no danger of being lynched. Removing the vote did nothing except show that you had no confidence in it.

Also, you have cast light doubts on almost everyone at some point in this game through your prolific "reads." What you've expressed for JoramvanVugt is not consistent with how you view other people (e.g. aggressive hatred of lurking).

I hope you maintain this dismissive tone, it's amusing. And I'm devastated the game where I had to replace out because of real life didn't impress you, Thespio. Like I said, I only hope I can learn from you moving forward this game!

[HenryCabotLodge]

It looks like this Akuseru/Stubbs exchange is boiling down to a disagreement over semantics. Stubbs didn't realize that Micc wanted a more in-depth explanation of his vote and Akuseru didn't realize Stubbs meant "please post your reads now" when he asked for them. Is this a fair assessment, Stubbs and Akuseru? Because if that's the case, this looks like a pretty innocent and, ultimately incosequential, disagreement.

Stoz and notscience have been conspicuous by their absence, especially with the suspicions expressed over Stoz. notsicence indicated he didn't have wifi yesterday and would be posting today, so I'm not too vexed over his absence today but I am def looking forward to hearing from him.

Have we given up on JoramvanVugt? His only post in three days was to express his displeasure at people pressuring him and saying he has no reads.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Have we given up on JoramvanVugt? His only post in three days was to express his displeasure at people pressuring him and saying he has no reads.

No i dont think we should ignore his super long absence, even a new player who is active is eager to participate. It was odd how he jumped on my badwagon without an actual opinion and hasnt formed any new opinions.

So where have i jumped on your bandwaggon? seeing as i was the first one to vote up HCL in my first post in the thread.
this is just a weird thing to say wtf

Your first vote was on notscience, actually. You voted me right after Thespio did.

Can we not post walls upon walls where we quote other people's walls?

That'd be fantastic.

Why did noone call out that Stoz's reads are primarily based on people's activity?

It's too much trouble to read? Does that explain your lack of activity/ substantive posts?

Also, the quality of Stoz's reads has been called into question by a few peole, my self included.

Town-
Thespio
HCL
Jora

Maybe town-
Stubbs

Eh-
Micc
stoz
veegeeslot

So you complain about Stoz posting reads based on only activity, but you post reads based on what look likes nothing with no elaboration?

Have we given up on JoramvanVugt? His only post in three days was to express his displeasure at people pressuring him and saying he has no reads.

No i dont think we should ignore his super long absence, even a new player who is active is eager to participate. It was odd how he jumped on my badwagon without an actual opinion and hasnt formed any new opinions.

So where have i jumped on your bandwaggon? seeing as i was the first one to vote up HCL in my first post in the thread.
this is just a weird thing to say wtf

Your only justifications for why you voted him were directly sourced from my read on him, you didnt even bother adding your own thought, plus the fact you just came back and i know you have been online reading and not posting makes you look like scum.

I dont know if you have been reading everything but ive posted almost every day. i dont know why you are so aggressive towards me? wanna get me lynched or something?

The last line of JoramvanVugt's seems like a weird thing to say. "wanna get me lynched or something" implies they have some sort of other connection in this game, especially due to the fact that Thespio hadn't placed his vote on him yet. Just stuck out to me as a strange line.

VOTE: HenryCabotLodge

Im voting for you.
You start the game by random voting a person that says hi but then later in the game you unvote and say a random lynch is stupid even though you are the one that started all of this.
It seems like your opinion changes with every post. first you want a random lynch then you talk about people starting a random bandwaggon even though you were the one to start it. idk you just seem to suspicious to me.
If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

@Joram, actaully last time i saw you post was like 2 days ago, and you post maybe once every 2 days and its not productive.

So voting for somebody and using the same reason somebody else used is not allowed? i voted him day 1 in the 4th player made post in this thread i believe saying his assumption that somebody is guilty and voting for that person just because he/she said HI is stupid. I've read almost every post in this thread and im still playing this game
there are people who post less then me and you keep going after me.

Are you trying to get the attention of your maffia buddie HCL? trying to get the attention onto me so that no maffia member will be lynched day 1?

Thespio and I have spent most of the game voting for each other and arguing, do you really believe that we are scumbuddies?

Also, it's suspicious have your vote on somebody for something they did on the first page at this point. There's been pages of activity that you haven't even so much as commented on at all. Since your vote on me, you just come in every so often to say you have no other opinions. This wouldn't be so bad if you didn't misrepresent my vote. I feel like I've explained this so many times already, but I cast my vote in the Random Voting Stage with no intention of actually lynching VeeGee based on him saying "Hi" (which notscience actually found suspicious and you voted him before me too- idk why you took your vote off notscience and put it on me). I took it off as soon as it was clear to me this game wasn't in a random stage. This was like seven pages ago, how is it still your reason for voting me? It would be different if you've been commenting on my newer posts but you haven't.

"The kind of defence [stoz] would expect to see from town" O_O? For someone so big on clarification, one would imagine you’d be appalled at StubbsKVM’s No-I-don’t-want-to-elaborate behaviour.

Tell me how I don't want to elaborate.

I am lucky that StubbsKVM posted that quote, until then I had actually missed Akuseru's spoiler tag at the bottom of their post so I had to go back and read it.

Spoiler:

Posts lack substance (mostly game play/theory suggestions or a short comment here and there). Bulba even called it out and stoz’s defence was:

I like to seek clarification from people. Even when what someone says seems obvious, sometimes they actually mean something different, especially as they are sometimes making assumptions about how people play Mafia and some of those people have not been playing very long at all. Less ambiguity also gives less opportunities for scum to hide or twist their previous posts into something different.

I was surprised at this answer since I had stoz down as “guy who posts but doesn’t really post anything”. Most of your posts are NOT clarifications (and if you like to seek clarification from people, you’ve had loads of opportunities to do so…but you didn’t).

As for your current read (my comments are within the quote in red):

This is where I am right now:

Akuseru - 55% town
Has been asking good questions and seems to be putting in a good effort.

Empty read, scum can ask good questions and put “in a good effort”

JoramvanVugt - 45% town
Seems to be a bit all over the place, probably because of newness. Pretty hard to read though.

commentary :/

Bulbazoor - 40% town
Voted me, I posted a rebuttal and which he completely ignored. His reasons for voting me are flimsy and VeeGee was reasonably suspicious too. Plus the replace-out is not null from my point of view.

Reasonably suspicious? How so? You’ve never mentioned that before or explained it here. Did you just decide Veegee was “reasonably suspicious” on the sole reason that he’s being voted by others?

Thespio - 70% town
HenryCabotLodge - 70% town
Based on the back and forth a few pages ago I am happy for now to think of both of them as town.

What about their back and forth makes you think they’re town. There have been a couple of back and forth arguments in the thread between 2 players similar to this one. What makes this exchange so special?

StubbsKVM (SE) - 55% town
Seems pretty consistant. Mounting the kind of defence I would expect to see from town

"The kind of defence [stoz] would expect to see from town" O_O? For someone so big on clarification, one would imagine you’d be appalled at StubbsKVM’s No-I-don’t-want-to-elaborate behaviour.

notscience (SE) - 50% town
Started out with some great questions but has gone pretty quiet lately.

empty read

Micc (IC) - 55% town
Great activity. I don't really get his angle on StubbsKVM but he has been asking about other people too.

If you don’t get the angle why aren’t you trying to understand it or if you don't agree point it out *cough* clarification *cough*.

Re: VeeGee: in particular I found the "I think I'll VOTE: NotScience for now" (Post #77) with no explanation to be suspicious, and to me the replace-out is still not null.

Re: Thespio / HCL: The passion and stubborn-ness of both of them seems hard to manufacture, leading me to believe they both know they themselves are town.

Re: notscience: Yes empty, that is why it is 50% / in the middle / null. Where is the rule that says being unsure about some people means your are not town?

Re: Micc: I thought he had no case against Stubbs, but I learnt early on not to try to defend other players unless you think it is a very very very bad idea for them to by lynched.

Stoz and notscience have been conspicuous by their absence, especially with the suspicions expressed over Stoz. notsicence indicated he didn't have wifi yesterday and would be posting today, so I'm not too vexed over his absence today but I am def looking forward to hearing from him.

Is "broken wifi" all it takes to get a free pass around here?

Why did noone call out that Stoz's reads are primarily based on people's activity?

Activity is useful though because it is easy for scum to lurk and harder for them to put in effort. I guess maybe I don't "get" day one though. I know I am judging on effort and passion, but without any solid information like tracker / detective and role claims what else is there to go on?

Your rebuttal seems pretty defensive, and the omgus is doing nothing to change my stance

What should a rebuttal be if not defensive?

And Joram what are you talking about? Your first vote was on notscience, not HCL.

I don't like your defending your development of reads based primarily on activity. Somebody can be active and "passionate" and still be full of crap. Using activity as your litmus test of townieness leads to wishy washy reads, another list of which you've posted here.

[HenryCabotLodge]

The last line of JoramvanVugt's seems like a weird thing to say. "wanna get me lynched or something" implies they have some sort of other connection in this game, especially due to the fact that Thespio hadn't placed his vote on him yet. Just stuck out to me as a strange line.

sorry spoiled this for you a little, i voted him b4 u posted, I honestly dont think anyone sees you as scum at this point, except may be Joram.

No, I saw you voted him before I posted- I meant you hadn't voted him yet when he made that specific post I quoted.

[HenryCabotLodge]

No, I saw you voted him before I posted- I meant you hadn't voted him yet when he made that specific post I quoted.

yea that's because i was weighing what your reaction would be to my vote. You got upset last time i changed it.

Well, you've said a few times now that you think I'm just bad at mafia and I'm not scum so it makes sense. In our last argument I had actually expressed confusion as to why you retained your vote on me if you thought I just stunk. My issue with you taking your vote off of me the first time around was that you declared me to be "obvious scum" and said your reason for unvoting was to go after lurkers, which was bizarre to me because you can still question other people while keeping your vote on your top suspect.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Is "broken wifi" all it takes to get a free pass around here?

If I don't have a computer to post on I don't have a computer to post on.

So, complain if you want, but I don't understand why you're complaining if you aren't scumreading me.

I'm not complaining at you, I was questioning HCL. HCL was concerned with both of us, but was willing to give you a free pass because you posted that your wifi was out. We've all got plenty of things going on in real life.

I don't like your defending your development of reads based primarily on activity. Somebody can be active and "passionate" and still be full of crap. Using activity as your litmus test of townieness leads to wishy washy reads, another list of which you've posted here.

I haven't posted a second set of reads. What you quoted above was my response to Akuseru's criticism.

The longer someone pursues something passionately, the harder it is for them (and the more opportunity to slip up), which weeds out bad scum players (increasing the likelihood they are town). So either you and Thespio are town or godly scum (and I don't think you're godly scum).

HCL, what is the alternative to base your reads on at this stage of the game?

I try to figure out people's motivation for posting things. More concretely, I look for inconsistency in logic, nonsensical arguments and votes, and try to see if somebody has a specific voting pattern. Amount of activity does figure into it to a degree, but I don't automatically associate an active player with being pro-town, nor do I see a lurky player as scummy by default. It all depends on the content of their posts. If a player who lurks just pops in from time to time and doesn't post anything substantial I find that scummy, which is what I'm seeing from you.

VOTE: stoz

Choo choo

Nah, we're lynching stoz.

But I wanted that out there now.

You seem eager to lynch Stoz. I think he's scummy myself, but I don't see you explicitly state reasons other than that you scumread him (which can easily be deduced). We have two days to deadline, why rush into this?

Joram is town.

Why is Joram town?

I still like the stoz lynch. He is not doing anything to change my stance and then he proceeds to joke about it?

That stuck out to me as strange too. Looked like scum being resigned to the fact that he'd been caught. You'd think town would put up more of a defense.

Before I buy my ticket to the Stoz train, I just want to clarify a couple things. The case on Stoz mostly stems from his lurker behavior and lack of content in posts. I agree that this makes him scummy. But could the same logic be applied to notscience who has played in a similar manner (after having a strong start)? His haste in voting Stoz irked me a bit and he posted a list of townreads (something which many players, notscience included, criticized Stoz for) that didn't even contain any explanation of why he townread or scumread anybody. I don't mind a Stoz lynch, I just don't want to rush into it.

[HenryCabotLodge]

You seem eager to lynch Stoz. I think he's scummy myself, but I don't see you explicitly state reasons other than that you scumread him (which can easily be deduced). We have two days to deadline, why rush into this?

Because I don't want a last second deadline flashwagon?

Ah yes, taking the condescending Thespio style approach. Why do you scumread Stoz?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Can you explain why scum are more likely to defend themselves than town are upon being attacked?
Can you explain why scum are more likely than town to have reads you disagree with?
Can you explain why scum are more likely to not vote a scum read than town players are?

I dont like this case because I feel like its all based on stuff that I dont consider alignment indicative. It feels more like you disagreeing with his reads and playstyle more than anything.

My own issue with Stoz comes not so much from disagreeing with his reads but the fact that they're very fascile. None of them (at least in his initial reads post) really say anything one way or the other about a player. I'm not really in favor of posting reads constantly anyway, but it seems to have become a sort of indicator of townieness in this game for whatever reason. This also makes Stoz's reads post suspicious to me- after a period of inactivity he comes and and makes a post that looks pro-town on its surface (the reads post), but in reality doesn't say anything definitive. He also didn't place a vote the whole game until his second to last post where he votes JoramvanVugt, a wagon which is conveniently enough gaining steam. All that said, I'm cautious of lynching him myself because I don't necessarily feel comfortable with having inactivity being a primary factor in finding somebody scummy and his play has been much better/substantive as of late (but I guess that's to be expected when the pressure's on).

As for JoramvanVugt, I'm getting more and more comfortable with a lynch on him. You'll remember early on in the game he expressed interest in having me roleclaim (what?) and aped Thespio's arguments against me when he voted me. He kept that vote on almost the entire day and only posted periodically to indicate he had nothing to add. When the pressure is put on he pleads newbieness, which I'm sympathetic to to an extent, but his professed helplessness right now is a far cry from the beginning of the game where he seemed quite confident with his vote on me. There's also the weirdness with him somehow knowing there's a cop in the game. Also, Joramvan, you say you have a completed game but you said this in post #124:

Also im playing a newbie game cause this is my very first game. i dont know a lot about maffia and came here to learn. some help would be amazing instead of omg he is guilty cause he didnt do this little thing like all other players do. I dont know how maffia is being played on this site. i still need to learn all of that. so sorry if i dont do things like you guys want me to..

which seems to contradict what you say in post #316:

I have 1 previously completed maffia game. its not like im a pro trying to act like a newbie, i only know maybe 20% of the roles in mafia i dont know most of the terms you guys use and i dont know how to play as most roles. if you call that experience just lynch me

#124 makes it seems like you have no experience with mafia at all, while #316 just indicates you haven't played mafia on this site. You also pretty confidently say this in post #86 when you vote me:

If you were playing in my last game on another forum you would already be dead by now. somebody would have daykilled you already

You seem to represent your level of experience differently when it suits you, surely you can see how that is suspicious.

I'm not down with a Stubbs lynch at this point, but I do find myself wondering where he is.

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE: unvote
VOTE: notscience

This is the second time you've pushed for the stoz lynch with no elaboration. You say you scumread him but you don't say why. You've also declared JoramvanVugt to be town twice. Why is he town? You haven't commented on the merit of the pressure on him right now. You haven't really commented on much of anything in the last few pages actually.

And deadline flashlynches are way too easy for scum to control.

We're nearly at deadline and the only person I see trying to control a lynch is you.

Okay? I don't particularly care.

I do care that a scumread is being passed by for a townreads.

Okay, but why do you scumread him? You never say. You never say why you townread people. You posted a list of reads in #241 that had even less content than Stoz's post. Also remember at the beginning of the game you were actually trying to make a legitimate case against VeeGee for saying "hi" and indicated you were fine with lynching him based off of that. Whatever, that might be just a disagreement over playstyle/theory but I still don't care for it. However, your playstyle seems to make a change at post #53. Prior to that you directly questioned players, provided reasoning for your posts/ actions, and engaged the town in general. After that, it's been these laconic generalities and you've mainly been in the background. I don't like the discrepancy between your early and current play and I don't like the way you've been pushing for Stoz's lynch.

[HenryCabotLodge]

HCL, I myself don't understand notscience and his confidence in his stoz and joram's reads, however if he was scum, it would be highly inefficient to go against a bandwagon (ie: Joram's). They just need to kill any townie right? Why not just go with the flow? I feel like you condemning him for going against the popular opinion isn't a good criteria to base your vote, especially when going against "the flow" doesn't benefit scum in anyway. Just something I'd like you think over.

That being said, notscience could still be scum just planning out/building his town meta early on, but at this point in time it isn't enough for me to overlook the more suspicious players in the game.

I wouldn't call it "going against the flow." Stoz had the most votes for awhile and a lot of players said they'd be alright with his lynch. It's not like notscience is pushing for a lynch on someone from out of nowhere who has had no doubts cast upon them. Stoz was almost universally scumread, the pressure on him was alleviated only very recently.

It's also the manner in which he does and how he implies that it's scummy to look for other lynch candidates before deadline. notscience has established a playstyle that's very diffident and vague. More than a few times people have expressed difficulty in reading him one way or another and are content to pass him over for suspicion in favor of other players (as you do here). Isn't that a perfect position for scum to be in- inscrutable and universally unsuspected? It's even more pronounced when you look at his posting in the first few pages of the game- active, engaged, inquisitive- as opposed to the style he's recently adopted.

About Joram, there's the possibility that notscience is protecting him for whatever reason. It could be that he is legitimately just townreading him (though he has not seen fit to explain to us why), but I'm not willing to discount the possibility that it's because they're scum partners.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Sorry if I'm being a retarded idiot, but is JoramvanVugt in danger of being modkilled at all?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Don't lynch-
Akuseru- scum wouldn't think to investigate a player that in depth on other sites. This shows town actually trying to understand someone
Joram- i have been over this
Thespio- tunneling town
HCL- his 1v1 with thespio seemed town
Stubbs- he is ok
Micc- eh
bulba- I stillthink veegee was scum
stoz- First off, whoever said he was really addressing his wagon is wrong unless they can quote to me where there's an actual address other than a discredit. Second off, his reads early still bugged me. Third, can someone actually tell me what stoz has done that is townie? His readslist were based on activity, he has random passerby comments, and he has hardly addressed the wagon on him except to discredit.
Do lynch

there you go kiddos

hitchhikers guide to this game

Thank you for elaborating on your reasons for being so hot on lynching Stoz, though I'm not sure that it brings anything new to the table.

HCL get in here and put a vote on a leading wagon please. Or at least state your intent. If its going to be stoz we need a claim asap.
(Im assuming Jordan's going on stoz at this point).

Consider me on jordan but willing to hammer stoz at the deadline.

I'm honestly not terribly keen on either. Stoz is the better option imo, despite Joram's proven deception. Joram could be bullshitting us with a feigned helpless town claim, but I'm less willing to risk that possibility than I am that Stoz is just being overcautious/aloof as opposed to scummy. I don't like that it's come down to a choice between these two when I think there are other viable scum alternatives (notscience and Thespio) that could be fleshed out. But it is deadline on day 1 so I guess I have to be a realist about it. The alternative (a non-lynch) is vastly more detrimental to town.

Consider this intent to hammer Stoz. I'll check back in a few hrs.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I would have kept my vote on Thespio to be honest and i still dont trust him at all. but i dont think we can get 5 votes on him before this game ends, for me its midnight currently so i will be going offline soon and wont be there for day end

I have a similar thought process on notscience and Thespio (albeit to a lesser extent) at this point myself. It seems better to consolidate a lynch on somebody that is read scummy by consensus (as much as somebody can be in this game). A no-lynch seems to give the mafia a free pass of sorts and, if anything, we can also draw conclusions from the wagon based on how the lynchee flips.

[HenryCabotLodge]

And what information do people hope to gain when I flip? Because that justification was used a lot in my last game and it resulted in lynching town every time.

I am doubtful that Bulba / NS scum would act in such unison, but I am sure that one of them has to be scum.

I considered that when I declared my intent to hammer you. If you flip town, I feel it implicates notscience quite a bit. You'll notice I still have my vote on him. I was uneasy about your play in the early to middle part of the game (which I expressed) and now you've suddenly become quite active now that you're on the block. Of course anyobdy, scum or town, is going to try to defend himself before lynching but the truth is your play has generally been very reactive and diffident so such a change in play does not make you look better, despite the fact it's all you can do. In other words, you dug yourself in a whole and on day 1, when there honestly isn't a whole lot in terms of substance to go by, it's pretty damning. Should you flip scum great! If not, my top scum suspect looks very bad. This lynch makes sense for me.

if anything, we can also draw conclusions from the wagon based on how the lynchee flips.

I will flip town, so why don't you start drawing conclusions now and find the scum before I am lynched? A couple of people are pushing really strong on me and the rest of the town is like "yeah-kinda-maybe". That shouldn't make me a good candidate.

I believe notscience is scum but it's obvious my case fell on deaf ears. As I said before, your play has not inspired any confidence from me and your lynch is acceptable to me. It also has the added benefit of shedding some light on notscience's vote pattern/ game philosophy. Moreover, I do think there is at least a decent chance of your being scum.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Not science and thespio are still on top of my list, Stoz is probably one of the only players im like 99% sure of being town.

Why do you say that? Why is your vote on Stoz?

[HenryCabotLodge]

OK deadline is just about upon us. VOTE: Stoz

See you tomorrow, it's gonna be interesting.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thank you, HCL.

I just hope my reservations have been noted- this is not an ideal lynch for me. It does seem necessary, though.

[HenryCabotLodge]

VOTE: notscience He was my top scum suspect at the end of day 1 and now he looks very bad for pushing the Stoz lynch. I also did not like this distancing post from Bulbazoor:

Ughhhhh.. I want notscience now! For suggesting to selfhammer in a suboptimal situation to do so. You could have hammered joram if you wanted a lynch. I townread him. But you still could have if you wanted a lynch so badly.

Joram will die today,

Is that such a foregone conclusion? I thought most people were reading him as town at this point.

Ya forgot Stubbs.

Its probably because he's spent the whole game blending in, being forgettable, and not doing anything.

Yea he was conspicuously absent during the lynch proceedings.

I think espio is taking this too far with the cop. There may or may not be one as far as I know.

Yea I agree, this cop speculation can easily turn into distracting conjecture. Are we assuming that the mafia sent in a kill last night though? If so, that means there's only one possible setup that would allow for the cop (if I'm reading the setup matrix correctly). Would the mafia have any reason for electing to not kill somebody? Seems unlikely to me.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I agree on not speculating too much about the lineup. It seems like a convenient pretext for scum to push for claims.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Or at least show me a case that actually points to him being scum. Not one that points to why you dont like his play.

Most of my issues with notscience can be found in my post [post=#<349>]349[/post] where I voted him on day 1. To summarize, I didn't like the way he pushed for the Stoz lynch, the way his playstyle had changed from earlier in the day, and the fact that he'd been able to be aloof through most of the day without offering enough to scrutinize. Not to mention the fact that he actually seemed willing to lynch VeeGee (the former holder of Bulba's slot) based off of him saying "hi" (something I still seem to get flak for even though my vote was first and at random). I know citing something that early in the game can seem like nitpicking, but I think it matters.

Spoiler:

Nothing to oadd, micc said he wants to lynch between 3 people and it's time to consolidate and you are the only person on that list i''m not townreading, so!

You seem eager to lynch Stoz. I think he's scummy myself, but I don't see you explicitly state reasons other than that you scumread him (which can easily be deduced). We have two days to deadline, why rush into this?

Because I don't want a last second deadline flashwagon?

But could the same logic be applied to notscience who has played in a similar manner

Not really. notscience does post content. He gets town points in my books for pointing out Joram's cop bait/call out. I'm still wary of players like him though. Still can't read him o.o

I'm a special snowflake

It's not intended to be condescending.

I had explained it already a few times.

That being said, I will state it again- I am trying to consolidate for deadline. I am not townreading stoz.

The two other decent sized wagons are on people I am townreading

And deadline flashlynches are way too easy for scum to control.

Thespio is basically some of the aggression and his constant shopping around seems town

Stubbs is primarily gut, I didn't really hate his reaction to you.

Stop the adhom.

I will be here later.

Tl;dr why joram is town-

First and foremost, what scum thinks "hey, I will take the pm from the OP and claim that it was my role pm? hint- they don't. That's a town thing, he knows he's town, he knows his role pm is town and its like "fuck how do I prove it to these people"

That being said, stoz's repeated discredits of hsi wagon are noted.

Hell I'm one of the people whiteknighting the fuck out of joram, why would he, as scum, scumread me? He has no reason to. As scum he would know I'm town defending him, he has no reason to call me scum. It's because he's town and the defense worries him.

So no.

We aren't lynching him.

Thats interesting because me scanning his ISO reveals a ton of posts of NS explaining reads and votes. I stopped quoting, but there is more.

He had a reason for wanting to vote stoz. I can understand if you think its a bad reason but trying to pretend he never had one is silly.

What is silly is you dodging the question at the end of my post while still pushing this case.

I guess I just thought his reasoning for pushing Stoz was flimsy. He seemed to put more effort into his case for Joram being town than Stoz being town, which I thought was telling. My biggest issue with his Stoz case was how he criticized Stoz's list of reads in post [post=#<201>]201[/post] because they were based mainly on activity, but in his post [post=#<241>]241[/post] he posts a list of reads with no elaboration. I know we're supposed to use "context clues" to divine notscience's reasoning, but I don't understand what being so coy about it accomplishes.

HCL is town. The whole " bws create reactions" was a good idea and we should use it today to get reactions from people like stubbs and maybe espio. I also liked how he comes up with things that benefit us as a whole town, not any antitown things that scum tend to say or come up with. What might rub me the wrong way, is the vote on my slot for saying hi. Maybe he did not know about site mechanics and random voting stage.

As I understand it, the random voting stage is like a free for all period at the beginning of the game where people cast non-serious votes. The "I don't care for your tone" part of my post was meant to be a joke (I guess I'm not funny).

Micc's points about Stubbs are duly noted. I'm not willing to switch my vote on notscience until I've heard from Stubbs or his replacement, though. I also don't like how rapidly Detective Thespio changes his vote- to me, it reads like he has no real confidence in them and it seems like a convenient way to attach himself to a lot of different bandwagons. I do not currently scumread him, though.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Apologies for mangling the post quoting format.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thespio, I'm just thrilled that you don't think I'm a bad mafia player anymore! May I ask what's changed?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Just got back from lunch at work so I'm a little busy. I'll try to have something up for you on Bulbazoor later, Thespio

[HenryCabotLodge]

I promised a more in-depth read on bulbazoor to High Inquisitor Thespio so here it is. He's stayed consistent and understandable for the most part to me, with two notable exceptions. The first being in his post #449 (I'm not going to attempt to link the posts since I butchered them last time around) where he says:

VOTE: joram,screw you. This is town!!,!!,!!,

Looks like a joke mostly, but it's a strange place for a joke vote towards the end of the day- especially considering the fact that there was a sizeable faction who found Joram scummy and was willing to lynch him. He casts this vote after repeatedly expressing his town-reading of Joram, so why put him in any danger? Again most indicators point to it being facetious but it still stuck out as unseemly to me.

The other instance is in his post #504 where he says:

Ughhhhh.. I want notscience now! For suggesting to selfhammer in a suboptimal situation to do so. You could have hammered joram if you wanted a lynch. I townread him. But you still could have if you wanted a lynch so badly.

There's some more to this one. For starters, he was completely in line with notscience's case on Stoz up to that point. They did have a little bit of a hostile exchange with notscience from about posts #406-414 that doesn't amount to much more than chest-beating and snarkiness on either part. From what I can tell, they both still agree on the main points pressing the town: Joram and Stoz's respective scumminess. So the post I quoted comes after Stoz is all but out of the game, which makes it futile and something that can easily be construed as an attempt at distancing (which is how I read it when I first saw it). But the thing that bothers me about it now that I'm reading it again is the fact that bulbazoor seems to think it would be somehow less scummy for notscience to hammer someone both he and notscience read as town over Stoz, someone they both agreed was scummy. I'm having trouble understanding the reasoning behind that one. I get the opposition to the self-hammer, but I don't know how lynching someone you both mutually read as town would be more desirable.

Despite this, his suspicion of notscience doesn't seem forced to me today. I buy that he found Stoz legitimately scummy and that he could have genuine reservations about notscience despite the fact that their reads lined up pretty conveniently. I'd def like to see some clarification on the above points I made on bulba, but overall I don't think he's scummy.

Five bucks says bbt finishes his catchup and votes me

(not actually this is a figure of speech)

Despite a loss of figurative money, what would suspicion (much less a vote) on you from our new replacement mean to you?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Oh, I'm also going to have limited computer access from about mid-afternoon tomorrow (Eastern U.S time) until Monday.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thespio and Joram, does your boredom with our nww replacement's summary/analysis have anything to do with the fact that he's expressed suspicion of both of you? It looks like an attempt to discredit his opinions.

I also like having fresh eyes on the game and getting a detailed overview like this.

[HenryCabotLodge]

How can he justify what somebody else did?

[HenryCabotLodge]

So you wont support your vote with what actually makes you think he is scum... and you also wont look over your slot and let us know what you would read it as... Explain to us why your town? anyone else have any thoughts? hcl?

I'm not sure what having BBT analyze his own slot will accomplish. He's going to portray it as townie no matter what. Also, his speculation on Stubbs isn't anymore useful than ours- it's not like he has some special insight into Stubbs' style of play. Stubbs infrequent posting was not good, but I think there are a lot more pressing things facing the town right now. If anything, this is a distraction. Stubbs' previous play will not figure much into how I look at BBT moving forward.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I'm not explaining why I'm town. That's for other people to decide, not for me to tell.

Ok well we all scum read your slot... But we didnt get a whole lot of analysis on micc's case or why stubbs was town in his actions, this concerns me. Because as I said before, if you cant justify it as town how can we?

I wasn't aware I scumread Stubbs.

[HenryCabotLodge]

@HCL I guess i see why it wont help a ton, but he wont even try to be biased, he reads me as scum, which is fine, but read stubbs, it just seems a little odd.

@HCL hmm, now that I look @ your posts you have been against his lynch, mostly by stating you dont agree with micc's view... My bad then, i know Bulba, NS, Myself, and Micc all have been watching his slot though.

I was def keeping an eye on his play, but there wasn't enough to go on for me to think he was scum. I think we should be hesitant to let a lack of activity be the prime motivator in a lynch considering how Stoz flipped.

[HenryCabotLodge]

So you wont support your vote with what actually makes you think he is scum... and you also wont look over your slot and let us know what you would read it as... Explain to us why your town? anyone else have any thoughts? hcl?

I'm not sure what having BBT analyze his own slot will accomplish. He's going to portray it as townie no matter what. Also, his speculation on Stubbs isn't anymore useful than ours- it's not like he has some special insight into Stubbs' style of play. Stubbs infrequent posting was not good, but I think there are a lot more pressing things facing the town right now. If anything, this is a distraction. Stubbs' previous play will not figure much into how I look at BBT moving forward.

Also what does it matter, if he is going to portray stubbs as town why not just do it? its kinda odd how you have always been null/against voting this slot...

Also the lack of activity isnt what makes me off about it, i was more concerned by his reactions to accusations. But ultimately it doesnt hurt to ask someone to read their slot and give reasons for actions if they were town or scum, as i did with bulba.

PEDIT: @ Joram, i did find it odd that he accused the both of us, it kinda seems like he didnt want us questioning Blue's reads...

Questioning is fine. Saying "this is boring" is at best useless and at worst scummy. I do see that Joram said that he welcomed a chance to improve his play, that's my mistake.

If he analyzes Stubbs he's going to spin everything as town. Even if he admits something's scummy i can easily be explained away by just saying Stubbs wasn't a great player. The likelihood of Stubbs just being a lackluster townie is the same as him being scum. An analysis from BBT won't change that.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Sorry everyone, I'm here and catching up. Went camping for the weekend and was in no condition to post. Should have been more specific about it in my posts.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Missed a lot- gonna try to cover at least the big stuff.

But the thing that bothers me about it now that I'm reading it again is the fact that bulbazoor seems to think it would be somehow less scummy for notscience to hammer someone both he and notscience read as town over Stoz, someone they both agreed was scummy.

I'm having trouble understanding the reasoning behind that one. I get the opposition to the self-hammer, but I don't know how lynching someone you both mutually read as town would be more desirable.

Exactly, and he doesn't care to explain it either.

Despite this, his suspicion of notscience doesn't seem forced to me today.

Explain. I understand why someone might want to vote for NS, but why does bublazoor want to vote for NS?

Obviously, I can't speak for Bulbazoor. I'll admit that maybe I'm not reading enough into his read of notscience since it supports my own.

How do you know that thespio? First you were sure he was scum, then you we're conflicted between him and bulba, and now he's definitely town? Smh
I really hope you're not scum. I keep excusing you because I keep thinking "It's just thespio being thespio". You're consistent with your inconsistency (votes, reads, opinions etc), if that makes any sense. You're everything I'd imagine scum would try to avoid being.

You've described my feelings on Thespio perfectly. The illogic and inconsistency make me want to vote him, but you're right- why would scum act the way he does? This is bordering on wifom now though.

Sorry for the language. I def beliege that other scum besides not are in stubbs, espio, or hcl
I just do not feel strongly for hcl as scum. So its theespio as my second option.

Can you elaborate on your reading me as scum? Seems like it came out of nowhere honestly.

Why does not justifying myself make me scum? (I have justified everything I have said but I'm humoring you). I have just finished catching up on a 30 page game and you wanted me to go back and reread all of my posts when they were right there for you to read. If you can't be bothered to look, why should I? I don't need to convince you to vote NS, I don't think you're the bussing type. I need the rest of town to understand what I'm saying.

Because its not there, thats why im asking you to show me where it is. Because at this point it is not even a real thing, you just assert its existence.

Why is it odd I brought Bulba up as scum? Are you town reading him? If so, why? I'm pushing NS because I think he is scum and he has the biggest wagon out of all of my scum reads. Do you have a problem with this?

No, I read him as scum as well, its odd you accused him but you have left him out at the same time. Push NS all you want but if you read bulba too then you need to explain why NS is worse then Bulba.


Your vote seems to fall into the same category as what you accuse me of as well, you are sheeping, you have no support that you can show (Yes i know you have a recap but its not in there). On top of that you are jumping on a wagon literally because you see it as a popular wagon, that is your support for ending the day.

I don't see anything wrong with BBT's logic for voting notscience. He can scumread more than one person. If one of those scumreads has more momentum on it, why wouldn't he jump on that wagon? I can't help but think Thespio might be bombarding BBT because he's the replacement and he thinks he'll slip up or something. I thought when BBT came in, he gave a pretty fair accounting of what's happened and backed up his reads with logic. Most of Thespio's problems with BBT seem to stem from misrepresenting/exaggerating his points (e.g. the uselessness in trying to explain Stubbs' play, having his vote on notscience). I don't think it serves much of a purpose other than to confirm the mercurial nature of Thespio's posting.

601 - Bulba, the base for your scum read on Stoz is weak. It's nowhere near strong enough for you to hold onto throughout the entirety of D1 in the manner that you did.

602 - Saw this vote coming.

606 - Bulba, do you have scum meta for Aku or are you making baseless guesses?

I'm confused that you're scum reading Stubbs for sheeping the general majority and null reading Thespio when Thespio has spent the entire game doing just that.

631 - This post feels town. Scum don't admit that their actions can be perceived as having scummy motivations.

672 - This is awful reasoning for your switch in vote.

673 - Thespio, are you getting bored because you realize I am scum reading you?

681 - Can you clarify how NS is acting suspicious? Also, can you state why you think arrogance is a scum tell as opposed to it coming from town?

Alright, I'm fully caught up. I'm pretty freaking sure that Henry is town, I'm also pretty sure that Aku is town. Micc feels town, I really like some of his posting.

That leaves NS, Bulba, Thespio and Joram. I like Joram for town, this is based on a couple of posts that I just find really difficult to see coming from scum. His overall play is scummy though.

I believe if we lynch Bulba/NS/Thespio we win the game. I don't particularly care what order but my strongest scum read is Thespio.

This is questionable. If your top read as scum is espio.. Why not vote him? Why do yoh not care in what order they are lynched in? I have no meta so any thing I say in regards to my reads is based on this game and only this game.

If he reads them all as scum, it shouldn't matter what order they're lynched in. I really don't see why people harp on that part of BBT's logic.

heads up my laptop was... well destroyed, so i ordered one, it has 1 week to 2 weeks in transit. I will post by monday but typing on my phone sucks

Thanks for the heads up. I hope your laptop breaking doesn't have anything to do with being too aggressive with mafia, Thespio- I worry about you sometimes.

its hard for me to read all the posts, but i dont think my vote will change. we should just hammer NS. Thespio the reason why you arent hammering is because he is your scumbuddy, if he is mafia, my vote will be on you tomorrow 100%

While I obviously think notscience is scum (hence the vote), I wouldn't be in favor of a hammer right now since we have a lot of other shit to work out (the implications of the Thespio/BBT feud for starters). Your theory on notscience/Thespio is actually not too bad. The way Thespio went after BBT (and with such a flimsy pretext) raises questions of what Thespio has to gain from seeing notscience survive the day. I know it's become something of a regular occurrence for Thespio to be overaggressive, but this is the most perplexing episode so far. Makes me think of day 1 when he called me "obvious scum" and then dropped his vote. We'll see if he drops his arguments on BBT so easily.

Sorry everyone, I'm here and catching up. Went camping for the weekend and was in no condition to post. Should have been more specific about it in my posts.

Thats fine, I was really bummed when you were prodded, I hate replacements and people, but replacements more. Do you think its possible that NS is scum and BBT is using him for town cred?

You mean, like bussing him as his scumpartner? Doesn't seem likely to me. If notscience flipped town after a hypothetical lynch (which is very doubtful in my opinion) I'd definitely be very suspicious of BBT (and Bulba too, btw) but I don't think it's bussing. The scum are down a nightkill already I don't think they'd risk falling more behind by sacrificing one of their own members.

What? I'm now scum with NS?

We should turbo lynch NS and when he flips scum turbo lynch Thespio.

That looks very much like Thespio knows NS is going to flip scum and is trying to tie me to the scum flip.

I honestly don't want to lynch NS, there are better lynches right now. The issue is I think ive talked myself off of NS and partially off bulba. I don't suspect Aku or Micc, BBT I hate you because you are a replacement, While i respect your reads and the fact you went over everything i lean town, the lack off substance behind wanting people lynched concerns me. You want me to hammer and end the day over a week early because you want to lynch scum, but the longer the day is the more we get to see people post, and the better we can read each other. Which throws me a little... Plus you immediately linked me to NS, even though I was the first to show suspicion towards him and honestly if we were scum buddies its much more likely that we would avoid each other not buddy. HCL seems town, Joram seems super newbie but town. So right now im sitting at:

Bulba>BBT>NS>Joram>Aku/Micc/Hcl

I wont try to justify all of my behavior, because this is my second game on this site and im playing 3 others from alternate sites, so as I learn im going to be erratic. I would rather have NL though at this point, Im not sure enough to support a lynch, just because its risking a Miss-lynch, Which would change the outcome in favor of scum:

Alive: 8

Scum-Alive: 2

Town-Alive: 6

Today's Outcome:

Miss-Lynch:

Alive: 7

Scum-Alive: 2

Town-Alive: 5

Scum-Lynch:

Alive: 7

Scum-Alive: 1

Town-Alive: 6

No-Lynch:

Alive: 8

Scum-Alive: 2

Town-Alive: 6

After Night:

If Miss-Lynch Day Before:

Alive: 6

Scum-Alive: 2

Town-Alive: 4

If Scum-Lynch Day Before:

Alive: 6

Scum-Alive: 1

Town-Alive: 5

No-Lynch:

Alive: 7

Scum-Alive: 2

Town-Alive: 5

Outcome:

Miss-Lynch:

Pro's: Increased Chance of lynching Scum

Con's: We arent all really on the same page so I feel like it will result in another miss-lynch which leaves us in LYLO. If BBT was appealing to Joram then joram will swing with him and town will lose (Assuming BBT is scum). Which explains why he is trying to link me to NS. I still want to see what BBT though NS was trying to do.

Scum-Lynch:

Pro's: 1 less Scum, pushes LYLO back, overall good

Con's: decreases accuracy of next lynch but we are likely to read people better based off of the lynch.

No Lynch:

Pro's: Increased accuracy after NK, Lylo isnt brought forward, overall neutral outcome.

Con's: We aren't receiving benefits from Scum-Lynch.

Overall I would rather have a no lynch then a rushed lynch that becomes a miss-lynch like yesterday. However I think if we are all reading bulba as scum and even bulba sees his actions as scummy we should be looking at him. BBT, I'm waiting for Aku and Micc to get done reading over you, because Stubbs definitely played as scum.

So, you're not going to justify your behavior but you expected BBT to justify someone else's and then proceeded to blast him when he didn't? Why should we give you a free pass for your own behavior when you won't relent on someone who vainly tried to explain to you why it's stupid to try to justify somebody else?

I think a no lynch is a terrible idea. I think you have a point on bulba and I'm probably going to iso him later, but I don't see where a no lynch gets us. We would literally be at the same impasse we are at right now. On top of that, the mislynch yesterday does not hurt us badly since there was no nightkill (!). We're not at a point we're it's devastating to lose a member of the town. I'm confident in my read on notscience being scum, but even if he did turn up town we would still be in a better position to evaluate people than if we decided to not lynch anybody today.

[HenryCabotLodge]

As a tl;dr of sorts I'll just make a quick list of what I'm seeing from people:

notscience - Still scum. His absent is detrimental to my case since there's a lot of new information to go on, but I'm still comfortable with my vote on him based on what I've said already.

Thespio - Scummy, but I'm not willing to commit on a definite read. Sounds bad, I know, but even though there's a lot of suspect shit in Thespio's polemics, I feel like my issue with him stems too much from playstyle which I don't think is a really legitimate reason to vote someone. His suggestion of a no lynch is a terrible idea, but he's had a few of those already.

Bulbazoor - Scummy. Really liked Akuseru's case on him and some of Thespio's points too. His joram vote yesterday during the Stoz lynch is still questionable and I'm going to think more on his explicitly stated reasons for voting notscience.

Micc- Null. Seems to be a bit above the fray. I think he's legitimately proactive though. Am interested in what he makes of the exchange between Thespio and BBT given his own attacks against Stubbs.

BBT- Town. I enjoyed the comprehensiveness of his recap of the game and I thought he displayed better logic when engaging with Thespio and Bulba. In all honesty, a lot of my own reasoning for suspecting bulba and Thespio comes from his initiative and I think that's a good thing.

Akuseru- Town all the way. Proactive, logical, inquisitive- my praise may be excessive but I was honestly relieved when I saw she had a post coming up in my catch up.

joram- Null, leaning town. His enthusiasm for the quick notscience hammer startled me, but I can't take too much issue with it since I'm keeping my vote on him. Would def not be willing to lynch him at this point.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Whats the difference between NS identifying 3 scum reads and voting the strongest wagon (which you seem to scum read him for) and BBT identifying 3 scum reads and voting the strongest wagon (which you seem ok with)?

Is activity playing a part of your NS read?

Do you see making an early stance in RVS in order to get the game moving as a bad action for town to take? Do you really think that scum-NS would come into the thread and expect to power lynch a player in a few pages and win like that?

Do you undrstand how answering the same question over and over might be annoying? Can you explain what scum NS has to gain from being coy and hard to work with?

Whats telling about putting more effort into justifying a Joram town read than a Stoz town read. He was voting Stoz at the time so I don't get what stands out as weird.

Hopefully we can get through this and either I'll feel good enough to finally support a NS lynch, or youll have swung over to Bulbazoor.

1. I think there's more of a basis for BBT's vote on notscience than there was for notscience's vote on Stoz. I understand it was day 1 and by definition there's not much to go by, but notscience's read on Stoz seemed to be based solely on activity which I don't care for. Also the manner that he kept pushing it without offering much elaboration on why he scumread him, especially when there were viable competing wagons at play (namely Joram). Moreover, being that it's day 2 and there's more to go by, I think it's more plausible for a player to legitimately scumread three players (with good reason) and be fine with a lynch on any of them than for day 1.

2. Activity is playing a part, but only in the sense that notscience's level of activity and manner of posting underwent a change towards the beginning of day 1 after a strong start. I interpret it as him being satisfied with the persona he established and attempting to merely maintain a vague presence for the rest of the day while not arousing much suspicion to himself.

3. Spurring activity isn't bad. The problem I had was that he implied he was actually willing to lynch VeeGee based off that first post. He even supported it with some kind of meta-argument about how he caught scum in the RVS in another game. I found it reckless and I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for him to have tried to manipulate some of the more inexperienced players into a quicklynch.

4. Oh certainly I can. I didn't see him being forthright with good answers though which sort lessens my sympathy for him in that situation. I saw the way he played it as a weird intimidation tactic. Taking a position of disdain and condescension in order to legitimize himself over the questioner.

5. I mistyped in that instance, I meant a Stoz scum read. Yea he was voting Stoz so he should have been explaining why he had the vote on Stoz. He was actively trying to win people over to the Stoz without elaborating on exactly

why

he was scummy. The reality was there wasn't much to get Stoz on, other than his fascile reads post and lurking. Joram was a proven liar at this point and under a huge amount of pressure. The fact that his defense of Joram took more effort than his condemnation of Stoz stuck out as strange to me. I'd think you'd be more adamant about lynching your top scum suspect and correspondingly provide reasons for it rather than spend your energy defending somebody who is that questionable.

I think the most damning thing for notscience is Stoz's flip and the fact that he was the prime mover behind the lynch, but did so in a very diffident and aloof way. There's just a lot of things that struck me as strange about his play (which I hope I've clarified a bit for you above) and I'm comfortable with his lynch. I am willing to take a closer look at bulba, but I'm about to sleep and that will have to wait for tomorrow.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Oh shit he's here!

Not comfortable lynching bulba before we've had some input from notscience.

[HenryCabotLodge]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bulbazoor

That's L-1. Too many inconsistencies. I haven't liked his play today. Looking through his iso, this business with Joram and notscience doesn't make much sense- his accusation of sheeping against notscience doesn't really hold up. Post 441 he says:

He did sheep me, but he posts good reasons to accompany his sheeping.

Someone agreeing with your opinion is not automatically sheeping. The fact that he had his own reasons apart from yours makes the characterization even more flimsy. Looks even worse when you consider his "joke" vote in #449. Town is at a standstill. I'm good with this lynch if only for the fact that it will give us information, though I do think Bulbazoor is scummy enough to warrant a lynch on his own. I still think notscience is scum, but I'm not sure how much longer I can justify keeping my vote on him. All things considered, at this point I think it's the best lynch for today.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I am bad for accusing people of sheeping. I just do not like how the people state that they have same reads as me.

That might be true, but I'm not willing to let it go as a matter of playstyle. Also, I wouldn't want you to selfhammer- I want to see who the hammer is (if there is one). I'm guessing BBT is the most likely candidate based on his previous stance towards you.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I really don't want to lynch Bulba.

That's a surprise considering this:

VOTE: Bulba

No thanks, I'm happy on the NS wagon.

If Bulba/Thespio picks up steam, count me in.

So both times two of your self-professed top lynch options of the day have been close to fruition you try to derail the wagons? This doesn't make any sense.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Also BBT is now lamenting the fact that NS is a bygone wagon when the day is still over and NS still has 3 votes on him. This after BBT himself had removed his vote on NS in favor of Bulba. What happened to all the talk of having your top 3 scumreads (notscience, bulbazoor, thespio) and not caring which order they were lynched- that you would join a wagon on any of them gaining steam?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Is that directed at me or BBT?

[HenryCabotLodge]

I generally like Micc. He's been pretty singular in his pursuit of Stubbs/Micc but it's not necessarily a bad thing to keep pressure on your top suspect. Moreover he expressed desire to work with me regarding my notscience vote which strikes me as townie. I like his style in general- I think he's pretty townie.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Even if his reasoning is weak and never changes?

Tbh I don't blame anyone for seeing you as scummy at this point. You've balked at the lynches of both of your self-professed top scum suspects in favor of going after Micc only for (from what I can see) keeping suspicion on you. His vote is on Bulba, your interests line up. I don't understand your issue.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I generally like Micc. He's been pretty singular in his pursuit of Stubbs/Micc but it's not necessarily a bad thing to keep pressure on your top suspect. Moreover he expressed desire to work with me regarding my notscience vote which strikes me as townie. I like his style in general- I think he's pretty townie.

EBWOP I mean Stubbs/BBT. Note that his vote is on Bulba which means he's not terribly singular and is willing to pursue other leads.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I'm voting NS, you can see that right? The only wagon I have avoided is Bulba. My read on Thespio changed and this caused me to reevaluate because I find it highly unlikely that Bulba/NS are scum together.

I realised that during my catch up I got side tracked from Micc quite heavily; which was easy to do because he has laid low the whole game.

PEdit - I showed how long he has been stating Bulba was scum for; I even questioned where that read came from (still waiting for the answer) because it materialised from nowhere.

I realise now that I'm wasting my time though so I'll wait for NS to hammer and maybe people will listen tomorrow.

I still don't know why you're against a Bulba lynch now. Is it only because you don't want to be the hammer?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Henry, you come off of NS to vote Bulba; do you see them as a possible scum team?

Not necessarily. At worst I see bulbazoor as a good lynch for town because it provides information (your sudden townread of him comes to mind). At best he is scum, hence why I'm comfortable with it. I'm uncomfortable with you seemingly excusing Bulbazoor's scummy play based on your recent scumread of Micc.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Lynching for information is bad. Lynching for information over one of your scum reads is even worse.

I think Bulba is just as likely to be scum as notscience is. I'm just laying out the scenario as I see it.

[HenryCabotLodge]

OK, so you DO see them as a possible scum team then?

Yes. There are many possible scum teams at this point.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Anything is possible, this could be a protracted performance by the two of them- they were, after all, the chief defenders of Joram on day 1 and the movers in the Stoz lynch. Day 2 (without a nightkill without a nightkill on Day 1!) is not the time for such speculation, though. It's better to lynch somebody based off of their posting and what it would mean for the town, and right now I think Bulbazoor is the best player for that.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I agree we should lynch based off of posting; except the lynch should be NS or Micc.

I think NS is scum. I don't think Micc is at this point- definitely not enough for me to place a vote. NS has also not posted in awhile, which hurts my case against him in light of new developments. I think Bulbazoor is the best lynch right now.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Anything is possible. I'm not explicitly calling them the scum team in this game. They are the two scummiest players in my opinion. I'm not willing to do associative reads at this point as you seem to be.

[HenryCabotLodge]

OMG, it was him, lol look @ his last time signed in. He would have to send Night action right? so if he was online durring the night and not posting then 1, wtf? what are you doing logged in but doing nothing? VOTE: Joram I also saw jorams cop request as a way to out the cop that he believe lived.

I was originally going to vote BBT based off the fact that he spent the first half of yesterday calling bulbazoor one of his top lynch choices then opposed it as much as he could when he actually came under threat of being lynched. I also don't like how the first thing he thought to do today was prematurely defend himself from suspicion by saying somebody is trying to frame him.

You have a good point about JoramvanVugt with the cop thing, though. Remember also that he asked me to claim on day 1 when I had two votes on me. We collectively excused his play as newbishness and he subsequent upped his activity and started making longer posts. In light of that, his absence at the end of day 2 is very conspicuous and strange and he looks scummy. I'm deciding between him and BBT for my vote right now.

I'm not in favor of a massclaim. Everybody is going to claim townie so it's just a useless distraction.

[HenryCabotLodge]

tru^ So he jailed BBT. this means he is inno and was targeted. Or he was guilty and couldnt kill. Regardless he saw BBT as scum and would have jailed him. That means he is innocent. Or BBT is a RB and guessed the jailor and killed him. Occam's razor states BBT is innocent. Micc probably jailed BBT and someone else killed him.

I don't think it's wise to lynch based off speculating on who Micc did or didn't jail. We're assuming something is a given that can't possibly be confirmed. If you ask me, Occam's razor would dictate that either BlueBloodedToffee or Joram is scum because they stayed off the Bulba wagon. Evidence points to Micc jailing Stubbs/Bulba on night 1 but I don't think we should assume anything beyond that.

[HenryCabotLodge]

tru^ So he jailed BBT. this means he is inno and was targeted. Or he was guilty and couldnt kill. Regardless he saw BBT as scum and would have jailed him. That means he is innocent. Or BBT is a RB and guessed the jailor and killed him. Occam's razor states BBT is innocent. Micc probably jailed BBT and someone else killed him.

I don't think it's wise to lynch based off speculating on who Micc did or didn't jail. We're assuming something is a given that can't possibly be confirmed. If you ask me, Occam's razor would dictate that either BlueBloodedToffee or Joram is scum because they stayed off the Bulba wagon. Evidence points to Micc jailing Stubbs/Bulba on night 1 but I don't think we should assume anything beyond that.

That wasnt who we should lynch its why i think BBT is innocent. We think its joram because of this train of thought:

-Joram stated he wanted to be copped ~this means he knows something we dont or he is a newbie.
-We now know that there was a jailor, that means there is a 50% chance there is a RB mafia.
-If mafia see's there is a RB on their side there is a 50% chance there is a cop.
-Scum also know that they attacked someone NP1 that didnt die (Stubbs probably, just to make micc look bad)
-That means they are likely to deduce that that there is a Doctor. (if they are a newbie who took a quick look and didnt realise there might be a jailor.)



That^ means that mafia had a 50% chance of getting the cop (if there is one) killed NP2, if the cop investigated Joram then told us if he was townie or scum. That would leave only a doctor who cant out the scum.

This is our reasoning.

My other reasoning was this:

-Micc suspected Stubbs and BBT so last night Mic knew there would only be 1 scum alive. Thus he could jail the 1 scum and there would be no NK. This leads me to believe he jailed BBT and thus BBT is innocent.

there is a small small chance that he is a mafia rb:

1/2 that RB exists
1/5 Chance he RB the right person

And this assumes that RB takes Priority over Jailor.

I think I'm understanding this now. As much as I don't care for speculating on the set up, we do have something concrete to go by now that a power role has been outed through death. You definitely have something with Joram's asking for investigation (as in his being confident there's a cop and being confident he'd be cleared). The fact that he was absent at the end of yesterday and was not on the wagon for Bulbazoor's lynch makes him look doubly bad. I think I buy it. Consider this intent to hammer Joram.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Yea, but what else can we do except sit on our hands and wait until Joram can respond to his wagon? As of right now we've accepted the thesis that BBT is practically confirmed innocent and Joram was the only player not on the Bulba wagon. Akuseru hasn't done anything scummy and I think it's highly doubtful that notscience is scum considering his play towards Bulbazoor yesterday. I'm also not prepared to go after you, Thespio. I think we just have to wait for Joram. I don't want to drop the hammer until he's had a chance to explain himself.

[HenryCabotLodge]

I was originally going to vote BBT based off the fact that he spent the first half of yesterday calling bulbazoor one of his top lynch choices then opposed it as much as he could when he actually came under threat of being lynched. I also don't like how the first thing he thought to do today was prematurely defend himself from suspicion by saying somebody is trying to frame him.

The eventual point was to show that I'm town. A Micc kill sets myself up to be quick lynched because scum!BBT 100% kills Micc in that situation, no questions asked. However, scum didn't bank on Micc flipping JK and that changes everything and actually clears me instead of implicating me.

I don't think it's wise to lynch based off speculating on who Micc did or didn't jail. We're assuming something is a given that can't possibly be confirmed. If you ask me, Occam's razor would dictate that either BlueBloodedToffee or Joram is scum because they stayed off the Bulba wagon. Evidence points to Micc jailing Stubbs/Bulba on night 1 but I don't think we should assume anything beyond that.

It's not wise to speculate on who Micc did/did not jail and then you go ahead and do it anyway? What you're actually saying is 'Let's not discuss who Micc jailed N2 because that clears BBT' but we can speculate about N1 because that incriminates BBT if we believe Micc jailed my slot and there was no kill. The fact is, it's 10x easier to predict who Micc jailed N2 compared to N1.

Can you explain what evidence points to Micc jailing Stubbs/Bulba N1?

I'd lynch Henry Today. His posts are really pinging me and I'm seriously contemplating lynching him over Joram

On the Stubbs/Bulba thing I mistyped- I meant VeeGee/Bulba (got my replacements confused). The fact that there was no nightkill in night 1 points to Micc jailing scum. Bulba turned up scum and Micc pushed for his lynch for most of yesterday- I don't think that's coincidental.

It took me a little while to fully understand the implications of the revealed power role and what it means for the setup/ your innocence. In all honesty, I saw the collective agreement by the town on your being innocent and found it troubling. I didn't fully think it through when I wrote the post about how I don't think you should be cleared.

Spoiler: I'll probably be unavailable this weekend, so I'll just post my thoughts on HCL and Joram (my 2 choices for lynch)

HCL

1. HCL tends to ignore the negative comments/scum reads on him (the ones that are not directed at him but more towards everyone else)...

545

979

1011



...unless they're from Bulba

619 - Bulba mentions an HCL action (pretty light in comparison to the above links) that bugged him. HCL comments on it/explains himself (in the last paragraph of that post).




2. I never really liked his reason for voting NS (starting from day 1 and throughout day 2).

Day 1, he kept pressing that NS was pushing a stoz lynch based on stoz' activity and he considered that scummy (which I didn't agree with since NS was pushing for a lynch that wasn't his town reads and stoz had a wagon so why not? What's wrong with lynching stoz for his activity/lack of content?), he then pressed that it would make NS look bad if stoz flips towns.

Day 2 - Primary reason for voting NS is because stoz flipped town. 826 - last paragraph.

They're not terrible reasons for voting NS, but compared to those reasons, bubla was more suspicious (ie: HCL didn't like how NS was voting stoz based on activity (said it was flimsy), but he didn't comment on Bulba's reasons for voting NS: arrogance and "sheeping". With his vote on NS, HCL still stayed "objective" and called out any scummy behaviour he saw in other players (ie: 684, 709), so I don't understand why he didn't call out bubla. He rarely commented on bulba unless asked.




3. He passively complains about NS not being around to post so he (HCL) can further his case against him (His excuse for why his reasoning for voting NS is getting weaker in comparison to the developing bulba wagon)

notscience - Still scum. His absent is detrimental to my case since there's a lot of new information to go on, but I'm still comfortable with my vote on him based on what I've said already.

He get's his chance...

Oh shit he's here!

Not comfortable lynching bulba before we've had some input from notscience.

..but doesn't engage with him. NS is his top scum read, and he could have pushed/questioned him (along with BBT) but didn't. That was odd.

A couple days later HCL posts:

NS has also not posted in awhile, which hurts my case against him in light of new developments.

You've had your chance to talk to him. You could have left questions for him to answer. You decided to stop going after your top scum read. But now it's NS' fault for not acting scummy anymore? How did his inactivity hurt your case (note: the inactivity between NS' last post and the above quote)?




4.

I think it's highly doubtful that notscience is scum considering his play towards Bulbazoor yesterday.

However, near the end of day two...

OK, so you DO see them as a possible scum team then?

Yes. There are many possible scum teams at this point.

Anything is possible, this could be a protracted performance by the two of them- they were, after all, the chief defenders of Joram on day 1 and the movers in the Stoz lynch. Day 2 (without a nightkill without a nightkill on Day 1!) is not the time for such speculation, though. It's better to lynch somebody based off of their posting and what it would mean for the town, and right now I think Bulbazoor is the best player for that.

You say it's highly doubtful based on his play yesterday. However, based on his play yesterday, you said it was a possibility and even gave reasons why. Why didn't you mention it was highly doubtful yesterday when BBT asked you? Instead you pressed that NS was still scum. You didn't explicitly say they were a scum team, yet you wouldn't drop NS as scum. Either you did think they were a scum team, or you voted Bulba even though you thought he was town (a scummy town, but still town). If so, why would you vote bulba if you were town reading him?

Joram

1. Most of my points against him basically come down to him being a really bad townie. And not in the scum-trying-to-act-town-but-failing way. He's just a bad townie (consequently making him a bad scum...)

There's a lot about me in this post- I'll try to hit the highlights. I'm sorry if my level of interaction with Bulba has not made you totally confident in my townieness. I guess the fact that I had one of the most important levels of interaction with him (setting up the hammer for his lynch) doesn't sway you. Fair enough. You're right though, I did not question him directly all that much. In all honesty, I didn't have much to add to the case against Bulbazoor- he was getting pushed pretty hard by a lot of other posters (Micc in particular). For most of the day, I thought notscience was the better lynch option so I was directing more of my energies at him. Even so, Bulbazoor was still on my radar as attested to in my posts [post=#<818>]818[/post]and [post=#<819>]819[/post].

I ignore the scumreads on me when they're made in passing. Most of the ones you cited were just general reads- there's no way to respond to a general suspicion well. On the more specific charges I'm willing to explain my actions especially if I feel like I'm being misrepresented (as was the case with the post with Bulba you cited). Also, the recent post you referenced from yourself didn't seem like an accusation so much as musing on play- I didn't take it as a serious charge.

As far as not questioning notscience, what was I supposed to question him on? He made a post saying what he thought of the developments since he had been gone. He likes to respond to questions by saying he's already answered them anyway. The reason I said his inactivity hurt my case is because when he came back, Bulbazoor was starting to look like the better lynch option to me. I was realizing it was silly to leave my vote on somebody who hadn't posted in days when Bulbazoor had been prolifically scummy.

Regarding my "reversal" on an NS/Bulba scum team I'll say what I said yesterday: anything is possible. It's an incredibly remote possibility but it's still a possibility. Having a few days in the night phase allowed me to reassess my reads in the game and I guess I've softened up on notscience a bit.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thespio started the day attacking Joram.

I don't see how you feel his reaction wasn't warranted. Every person in the game was attacking him, with 3 of us voting for him; how is that not pressure?

Phoneposting here so i'm going to be short- I know there's a lot of stuff directed at me that i'll get to later.

It's true everyone had attacked joram today and he seems exasperated, but don't you think there's still substance to the attacks? Do you think it's possible we're cutting him too much slack because he's a newbie? He's been on the chopping block a couple times now and we've collectively explained his scummy play away as being new. How many times are we going to do that?

[HenryCabotLodge]

Ok, rough few days at work haven't gotten a chance to make a substantive post. Looks like I'm the center of discussion. Even though I'm incredibly vain, I find myself frustrated.

I don't know why you think I am explaining his behaviour as him being new.

That's not what I'm saying.

This makes me think you're explaining his behavior as being new. Specifically the phrase "newb town vibes.":

VOTE: Henry

Joram is giving off a huge newb town vibes in his latest series of posts.

If I acted like a flailing exasperated person who is having trouble understanding the game, would it make you like me better, BBT?

OK, now for Akuseru.

I don't agree. It's more likely that there was no night kill N1 because Micc protected whoever was targeted or scum hit bp townie. Why would micc try and jail scum N1? There are two of them, and only 1 puts in the kill. To pull it off, Micc would have had to successfully choose scum + it would have had to been the one who placed the kill. If Micc did happen to go for scum that night, why Veegee/Bulba of all people. He wasn't high on Micc's scum list.

Night 1 is a crapshoot. We won't be able to successfully divine who he did and didn't jail by speculation for sure, but I think the intensity and persistence with which he went after Bulbazoor indicates he knew something more than an average townsperson would. Maybe he, like myself, was put off by Bulbazoor's attempted distancing of the Stoz lynch and notscience and decided to see what would happen that night. That's my thought process for thinking it's plausible that he jailed Bulba night 1.

I had one of the most important levels of interaction with him (setting up the hammer for his lynch)

True, but you know what else that looks like?

If you read everything I do with a scum motivation, everything is going to look scummy. I don't place as much credence on the possibility of bussing as you seem to. But by this logic, everybody who voted for Bulbazoor can potentially be his partner. I get that my level of interaction with him doesn't inspire your confidence, but whatever. It is what it is at this point.

or most of the day, I thought notscience was the better lynch option so I was directing more of my energies at him. Even so, Bulbazoor was still on my radar as attested to in my posts 818and 819.

Doesn't mean much to me. I don't think you would have said all that if I hadn't been questioning you about bulba and his actions right before. If you had ignored bubla after that, you would have started to look suspicious.

So are you implying I did a pro-town action (my ultimate vote) in an attempt to look pro-town because I'm scum? You can construe every single action I've done as being that vein.

On the more specific charges I'm willing to explain my actions especially if I feel like I'm being misrepresented (as was the case with the post with Bulba you cited).

How is BBT's post about you much different from Bulba's post about you. Both say you're town but then add a scummy point that bugs them:

Henry have been pretty

obviously town

for a while (though I'm not sure I liked Henry switching to the Bulba wagon now that Bulba has flipped scum).

That looks like bussing

.

Vs

HCL is town.

The whole " bws create reactions" was a good idea and we should use it today to get reactions from people like stubbs and maybe espio. I also liked how he comes up with things that benefit us as a whole town, not any antitown things that scum tend to say or come up with.

What might rub me the wrong way, is the vote on my slot for saying hi. Maybe he did not know about site mechanics and random voting stage.

You didn't feel misrepresented when BBT mentioned your possible bussing?

I suppose I did based purely on the fact that I'm town and didn't bus. But the only response to that is "I'm town and didn't bus." Bulbazoor's point was something more easily refuted by citing my thought process and it had also been a consistent source of misunderstanding of my play (remember my day 1 exchange with Thespio and Joram's sheep of his arguments against me) which I had become annoyed with throughout the day so I wanted to set the record straight. Honestly, the bussing thing didn't stick out all that much to me. Like I said before, seemed more like thinking out loud than an actual accusation.

As far as not questioning notscience, what was I supposed to question him on? He made a post saying what he thought of the developments since he had been gone. He likes to respond to questions by saying he's already answered them anyway.

I'm sorry, and it's probably me, but I guess I can't give you a pass on that. Those aren't good reasons. At the time you were in favour of an NS lynch over Bulba. Didn't you want get more info/better read so you could stay with your vote?

You've admitted this one is likely your problem and not mine, so why should I answer it?

I was realizing it was silly to leave my vote on somebody who hadn't posted in days when Bulbazoor had been prolifically scummy.

Yes, you realized that it would be silly for a townie to leave their vote on somebody who hasn't posted in days when bulbazoor had been prolifically sucmmy. What you say could be true, but I hope you understand that it could also be viewed as scum who couldn't continue ignoring their partners wagon without looking scummy.[/quote]

I'll say what I said before. If you read everything I do with a scum motivation, then every pro-town thing I do is going to look like scum acting like town. I tried to be pretty aboveboard with my reasoning for switching over to Bulbazoor (919,962,964). Also keep in my mind that the notscience wagon had a lot of support (4 votes when I left it if I remember correctly). I could have easily just parked myself there and waited for a no lynch or tried to convince somebody to come over to that wagon if wanted to protect my hypothetical scum partner Bulba.

Regarding my "reversal" on an NS/Bulba scum team I'll say what I said yesterday: anything is possible. It's an incredibly remote possibility but it's still a possibility. Having a few days in the night phase allowed me to reassess my reads in the game and I guess I've softened up on notscience a bit.

Why is NS unlikely to be scum?[/quote]

His interaction with Bulbazoor on day 2 and his ultimate hammer of him does not seem like bussing to me. Even at the end of day 1, Bulbazoor was attempting to distance himself from notscience, so I don't think it's likely the two are connected.

[HenryCabotLodge]

Thanks for a good game everyone!