For real? Then we better get this wagon started to weed them all out!
VOTE: Enomis
Yeah, it's because I live in Spain and when people started posting more, I was asleep since it was night time for me. I've caught up now.In post 64, Apogee wrote:Although it could be a time zone or schedule thing I would like to hear more from Maduisha, who contributed very quickly to that above wagon, answered one question, and hasn't posted since.
There was an April event in Site Ideas>Player Titles called entitlement that allowed you to change it yourself. I think the titles self-created in that thread are going to expire in a couple of days. I didn't know what titles meant for people on this forum when I requested this one, so I'm kind of glad it will expire soon.In post 69, enomis wrote:How did you change the title under your name?
I'm sorry if answering this sort of ruins some aspect of the push you had planned, but why announce it like this? So far I find your content to be pretty towny, but this pinged me a bit because in my experience, people that post about how they're going to do things later are usually scum.In post 91, DkKoba wrote:Theres another slot im interested in rn and I'm gonna start pushing on them soon
Yeah, I think there's some terminology confusion here, so I'm going to try to explain what I meant in that post. I like to classify people as:In post 99, joqiza wrote:Alright, I've reread and I'm ready to play. I'm still getting used to the new interface here, so going to apologize in advance for badly formatted posts.
I usually hardpush one player at a time, but tbh this game seems a bit slower-paced than what I'm used to, so I'm gonna try to get a couple balls rolling at once.
First, I don't think clemency scumslipped. I followed the logic, but it's a huge reach. I often address players who's alignment I'm not sure of as though they are town, I just intuitively like giving people the benefit of the doubt. In general, I'm hesitant to try to determine someone's alignment based on individual lines. This is a lesson I've learned recently, but these sorts of "slips" don't end up being as alignment-indicative as I used to think, and I'm trying to move towards more holistic assessments of players and slots. With that in mind, I actually think clemency is pretty towny based on the opening pages. Rn I wanna hear from enomis on that.
The second thing is, the most questionable post I saw on re-read was probably #66 by Maduisha. I’m gonna quote some of the lines from that post:
[referring to a TR on clemency]: “this slot stays null for me as I don't find his content to be alignment indicative, but I'm getting slight town vibes from it and I want to see more”
[referring to a TR on Ydrasse]: “Ydrasse looks town for me. I know it's early to say this, but I get a gut feeling from her posts. Maybe it's because we seem to coincide in opinion about stuff right now and I'm being a bit biased.”
[referring to a TR on DkKoba]: “DkKoba seems to really want to get the game moving, which is a good thing, so I'm townleading him right now too.”
It’s kind of wild to me to have three TR’s on page 3 of a forum game, but more than that I find the way the reads are phrased really questionable. There’s a sort of hedging tone w.r.t. each of the three reads and honestly I’ve just seen lines like this from scum players. The one in Ydrasse in particular, the sort of “hivemind” read has always been really weak to me. Like, someone outed the same general read at the same time as you, so you TR them? Idk just feels ingenuine.
It's mostly about this post. He seems to be reading more into the Enomis wagon than I am, specifically about Clemency's move. Also when he said he's going to vote Midway "for now" I feel a bit weird. Telling them it's temporary is the same as not voting, right? I see no pressure, so I'm unsure about this slot.
Alright, this is what kind of worried me, though. Activity post translates to you wanting others to know you're there, but you add nothing. I think active lurking is not a good look, you could have tried to ask a question on topic to get the thread going if you had nothing to say about the ongoing discussion.In post 188, midwaybear wrote:I also fluff because I'm confused and have nothing really to say
sort of like an activity post
pedit: yeah I agree DK should try to stop tunneling
I want to ask you about this, because I feel like showing emotion is a tell on its own. Both you and DK getting frustrated at each other for lack of better communication feels town vs town, in my opinion. Not because I don't think scum doesn't dare to 1v1 early on, but because I can feel the frustration from both is genuine. Did you really get no vibes out of this interaction with DK, or are you saying this because you've played with him before and this is within his scum range?In post 203, enomis wrote:And unlike votato, your posts on page 7 did not give me town reads on you. Nor scum read.
Care to elaborate? I'm reading Apogee's ISO and I don't get it. Is it because we're leaning town on both Ydrasse and DK and we both voted Midway? Do you think scum mirror the partner's actions? I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol.In post 231, votato wrote:you two are the scumpair. its obvious from your posts, your interactions, and your thoughts about other people.
I did elaborate on Ydrasse and DK already when the new guy voted me, here in case you didn't read:In post 236, votato wrote:it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?
Add to those reads that Enomis vs DK looks town vs town because of evident frustration that doesn't look fake to me.In post 126, Maduisha wrote:Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).
DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.
Yeah. Remember when I voted you? Geez, it's like my post was invisible.In post 240, midwaybear wrote:@Maduisha what did you call me out for? fluffing?
In post 209, midwaybear wrote:PS is that dr. Strange?
So I don't know if you're town and actually don't give a damn about continuing to do something people called scummy after they do so, or if you're doing it on purpose trying to wifom.In post 216, midwaybear wrote:PS: how do you pronounce enomis? I am thinking it sounds like "enormous", but how a baby would pronounce it.
Except I'm not pushing you right now? I'm answering Votato's question about what do I think about you and I gave my thought on your slot.In post 243, midwaybear wrote: it's weird that you keep on trying to push this when nobody else cares anymore
I called him out because at the time there was movement in the thread... you know, a lively discussion. Then he posts a promise he didn't fulfill ("I'm gonna reread") and his next post has nothing to do with the ongoing discussion. Context matters.In post 244, votato wrote:i think its a bit premature to call people out for fluff-posting. also, other people like me have definitely been fluffposting. why not call them out? Its not like all of midways posts were fluff, and this early in the game any content is good content more or less. why do you think its bad to let people post as much as they want for now? seems to me like thats giving them more rope to hang themselves with
I posted examples of you doing both things, please don't deny one with the other, because I can just quote you again if you want to see what I'm talking about.In post 258, midwaybear wrote:but that's not really fluffing. that's more like not keeping up with a promise.
My three scumreads were actually Clemency, votato, and you
I didn't like votato's push against DK, and his explanation for why he stopped is basically like "I give up just ignore the argument"
I didn't like Clemency's early game and he gave me nervous vibes.
Madiusha we also have to be careful of. She seems ok as of now, but I still want to keep an eye on her
good night both of you
pedit: wow
The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.In post 284, Ydrasse wrote:hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.
however.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha
i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)
i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.
Basically, you are describing wifom and saying you can't trust emotions to be a towntell. I can't deny the potential of it being strategically used as a scum defense to be seen more as town, but I do feel it's a towntell in their case because DK has displayed behavior I read as town, so I would say this emotional read enhances the towny feeling rather than it defines it for me. I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Of course, if you didn't feel their previous behavior to be towny, then you can't read it the same way I do, so that answers the question I asked before. As I can see we're not in the same page about that slot, can you tell me what vibes are you getting from DK? (Brushing the emotion part aside, the rest of content).In post 301, enomis wrote:
@Maduisha:
For me, it depends on how the emotions is showed.
1) I could get his frustration of the questions which feel like repeating and what he thinks I am nitpicking. But this could come from town or scum.
2) But I am actually not nitpicking and those are legit arguments in my eyes. I wanted to know his thought process and he just waved them away.
3) Furthermore, there is actually a chance that those emotions could be faked and he is just using this to try act out this emotion outbreak to distract town and use this to wave away my argument.
(This is one tactic that scum sometimes use, just repeat saying that your arguments are rubbish.)
All could be possible. Thus, I find no reason to read those emotions. as town. Nor scum.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you are town koba and you think that people is nit picking, what would you do? If you are scum koba would you do the same thing?
-----------------------------------------------
2) For people on bear wagon, do you think the post i quoted is scum bear? I think we should push other slots instead.
I don't even know why are you trying to convince me of anything when you admitted it yourself, lol.In post 139, midwaybear wrote:okok I'll actually reread this time sorry
Anyway, now that you're here, can you address this post of mine? I think you either didn't read it or ignored me again. I am slowly becoming the invisible woman, I can feel it.In post 297, Maduisha wrote:I posted examples of you doing both things, please don't deny one with the other, because I can just quote you again if you want to see what I'm talking about.In post 258, midwaybear wrote:but that's not really fluffing. that's more like not keeping up with a promise.
My three scumreads were actually Clemency, votato, and you
I didn't like votato's push against DK, and his explanation for why he stopped is basically like "I give up just ignore the argument"
I didn't like Clemency's early game and he gave me nervous vibes.
Madiusha we also have to be careful of. She seems ok as of now, but I still want to keep an eye on her
good night both of you
pedit: wow
Okay, thanks for explaining what's on your mind. Can you now explain the meaning of 225? What were you waiting for, exactly? I'm asking because seeing you suddenly spit reads after being put at L-2 feels scummy and I want to know if there was a different trigger.
Also, could you tell me your reasons to scumread me? You explained Votato and Clemency, and then there's nothing for me. How can people say "oh, you're right" if you provide no reasons? How can I comment on it myself? Honestly, you're making me think the scumread is because I voted you, and pushed you, and refuse to unvote.
I have so many problems with this post and I'll try to explain it the most simple way I can because I know it looks like I'm deathtunneling you and I want you to see your own posts as if they weren't yours for the sake of you understanding my argument. Okay, here I go:In post 330, midwaybear wrote:I think you're right. That is mostly why I scumread you. You seemed to be the only person seriously pushing me, so I thought you viewed me as an easy mislynch or something.
The meaning of 225 is exactly what it read like. I scumread you, clemency, and votato. Sometimes it is better not to tell people you scumread them because they don't have their guard up.
I wrote 258 before DK voted me, but posted it after. I think I revealed my reads because joqiza told me to.
I know I fluffed, but I don't really think I promised something and didn't do it.
Have you read my posts at all? I've expressed townread towards DK, townlean on Ydrasse, and Enomis, and have explained my reasons for each already. And the contradiction I see is not that he has a mixture of tone in his posts, it's that he said "I have 3 scumreads but I'm not gonna reveal them yet because that will influence them when they post if they know I scumread them", only to reveal them anyway when Joqiza asked him to, without fulfilling his self-established condition.In post 340, votato wrote:its not a contradiction to have both fluff posts and content-posts. the key is whether there are any content posts, and whether the content posts are genuine. I mix in plenty of shitposts with content posts. it doesnt make the shitposts scummy. and you made that judgement way too early in the game. you're also wayyyy to confident in your 3 scumreads this early, which is why it makes sense that scum!maduisha would hedge by expressing self-doubt. Do you townread anyone? why?
Little to no backing for my reads? I explained them several times now, one of them to you. I explained what I saw and why I saw it the best I can. I will not make up "more solid" reasons to make people think I'm onto something when I might not be. I try to be confident with my reads within a reasonable margin because otherwise people don't take you seriously, but at the same time I'm constantly trying to get some reality checks, like when I backtracked from Midway, because I was hung up on my own read being good, but then I realized that a dude that doesn't seem to realize posting unrelated stuff disrupts discussion is also very likely to be the same kind of person that makes a point that self-defeats. And a world in which Midway actually has this personality and I'm reading him wrong is a more probable world than Midway playing 4D chess, I acknowledged it and took a step back to considerate other slots.In post 374, joqiza wrote:Tone feels incredibly stilted from page 1, never improves, literally just read post #299 “Anyway, Ydrasse, I welcome inquiries.” feel bad pushing that because there’s some evidence of language barrier “or at least achieve not to frustrate you guys.” More importantly: reads with little to no backing, I already pointed out that she has three townreads (or “townleans”) by page 3 of the game, super questionable. Tone improved when I pushed them, had a sort of quiet defensiveness. Then got worse again, post #253 reads super theatrical though like it’s 11 pages, game isn’t that bad yet chill out, seems extremely insincere. Slot could make for a good lynch regardless of alignment tbh if town they’re gonna get mishammered at some point and I don’t think they’re PR. Post #306 is such garbage, like you’re expressing doubts about your midway push but you’re constantly doubling down on them why not flip to another slot when you’re not getting anything out of this one push. Analysis: scum read
Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.In post 387, Ydrasse wrote:it isn't that it's unnatural in structure so much as that you feel scripted. the way you act and talk feels like you're intentionally putting on a show/display.In post 298, Maduisha wrote:The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.In post 284, Ydrasse wrote:hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.
however.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha
i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)
i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.
I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.
reading for tone isn't everything, granted. i find myself agreeing with some of your content — 331 feels strong to me! it feels more like you're trying to analyze the content in a way that i can get behind, and you do have points that i'm not ignoring. midwaybear has been just... all over the place and very difficult to pin down.
the fact is that i feel like this entire time your motivation hasn't been... the best, the way it's been so single-mindedly focused onto a slot that doesn't give us much in the end and it's been clear.
that and the way 352, 354, and 357 unfold feel so just weird that i can't ignore it. like, if you've been theatrical before you're putting on the whole damn play with those. i dunno what you were going for here being like "yay! i can get content! from this" means when you didn't really like... switch to focusing anyone after unvoting midwaybear. sure, you can get information from it, but you've announced the intentions of it, which people all know how wagons go, and it falls flat. why not just... start pushing on someone else instead of waiting to reap some content from a supposed wagon.
dunno, just seems weird to me.
In post 451, midwaybear wrote:why change a winning strategy?In post 448, DkKoba wrote:I get the feeling midway is trying to force their play to be different from last game because votato and I are at this table. if he flips scum I think votato is strongly leaning town because of that. I find a very stilted "trying hard to be different and force towntells" sorta vibe from him thus far and I encourage people to vote for him with me
I don't even think you're that scummy anymore, but you have to realize that kind of affirmation is wifom, come on. I can say "I would never repeat my scum meta twice in a row!" and "Why would I change my strategy if it worked once?" and you have no way to tell if I'm saying the truth. That's why these posts of yours are empty, but I get that you don't realize.In post 455, midwaybear wrote:they are just salty that I got an ez dub
if i was scum, i would use the same strategy like i did in 1997. You're right though. I don't really know how to react to pressure.
But... I don't actually think I'm appealing at the emotions of Ydrasse and Joqiza, I'm trying to explain the logic behind my actions to them and why I believe for my arguments to be true.In post 461, DkKoba wrote:maduisha has a similar playstyle to another player who I know and I'm going to read them accordingly to that and that playstyle typically is never obvious alignment wise on d1 but always becomes more obvious the more the game goes on. I implore extra attention on maduisha from d2 forward. although I have to say she has not done much gamesolving and has instead detracted the push on her into an AtE argument, which I don't like. Maduisha if you are town, I want you to defend yourself, not play like this. You are not helping town and are just using non-logic to get people to hold off on you.
No, I unvoted him a couple of pages ago because I realized his behavior explained by his personality is more likely than Midway having some very elaborate plan that includes contradicting himself and posting obvious fluff after being called out. As much as it frustrates me, the lack of self awareness doesn't look like scum trying to look town.In post 465, DkKoba wrote:you have a vote on them and you pushed on them, and now you have cold feet?
I'm not "afraid of getting scumread", I'm just conscious that people are voting me, which means they don't trust me, and if a different town gets the rope D1, I'm likely to be chain lynched later because people have regrets. You get what I'm saying, right? The game changes substantially once one round of night actions happen, so I would trade another player making it to D2 over getting there myself if the majority of town are not to believe my words afterwards, anyway.In post 469, DkKoba wrote:If you're town you don't have much to fear as your actions should reflect you as town. Or are you not confident in your ability?
I am currently judging your level/playstyle and you're a slot I 100% need to hash out because you don't have an impatient/ego-y playstyle.
Why are you afraid you might get scumread? Are you planning on doing scummy things? Or can you not rebut and prove town motivation? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here when you are asking to be lynched because a) clearly you don't want to be lynched b) you are 100% AtEing like I said in a, you are not trying to get lynched here.
I unvoted long ago.In post 470, DkKoba wrote:If he's town then why don't you unvote him? And I'd like an explaination what you find town-motivated about his play.
I actually have only 3 games here and prior to that I had only played with friends with very different rules (all players are PR, games start in night 0 instead of day 1). But ask away!In post 471, DkKoba wrote:I read you as a moreso competent player with clear mafia experience, so I feel I can better question you in meaningful ways and get better information than most of the table. (joqiza if ur reading this I didn't forget you dw)