Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[Maduisha]

Hi! I don't know anybody here! I hope we'll get along very soon and have the least amount of replacements possible!

People who vote me are all scums.

For real? Then we better get this wagon started to weed them all out!

VOTE: Enomis

[Maduisha]

As a bit of self introduction to get things going: I have completed 3 games on this forum, 2 as town and 1 as scum. I still don't know how to play the game as well as I'd like, and I took a break after my last game, because I caused a town loss due to my heavy paranoia and my extreme tunneling of a fellow town player that game. I'm hoping not to repeat the same mistakes, or at least achieve not to frustrate you guys.

Nice to meet you!

[Maduisha]

My favorite would be jailkeeper because it can do so many things.

[Maduisha]

Although it could be a time zone or schedule thing I would like to hear more from Maduisha, who contributed very quickly to that above wagon, answered one question, and hasn't posted since.

Yeah, it's because I live in Spain and when people started posting more, I was asleep since it was night time for me. I've caught up now.

I know DkKoba is going to dislike this because he already protested Clemency unvoting, but I want to as well, since his is a serious non-RVS vote on Enomis, and I'm not a fan of letting a RVS vote parked on someone since the game started.

UNVOTE:

Now, some impressions:

The person that stood out for me the most is Clemency, both because of that "scumslip" idea flying around and DkKoba saying his recent behavior is blatantly scummy. I have to say, I don't think the scumslip is a thing and I believe he was just referring to town as a concept when he made that post, since town is always the majority. And I can see how his recent behavior can be seen as scummy if you only think of it as "he wants to push an easy slot", but if you revisit his post about it, you can notice he's saying newbies are most likely to slip up. That can be interpreted as "newbie players are more easily caught under pressure when scum" and "newbie players townslip more often". Of course, it could be viewed as "newbies are easier to lynch" if he's scum, but I think what I said before is what was probably his intention. So, this slot stays null for me as I don't find his content to be alignment indicative, but I'm getting slight town vibes from it and I want to see more.

Ydrasse looks town for me. I know it's early to say this, but I get a gut feeling from her posts. Maybe it's because we seem to coincide in opinion about stuff right now and I'm being a bit biased.

DkKoba seems to really want to get the game moving, which is a good thing, so I'm townleading him right now too. Although I'm also aware of the benefits for scum to create townblocks around them like Midwaybear said, I don't think scum blatantly says "let's build a townblock" and rather tries to get townread by people they're going to townread back as to create the block in a way that feels organic and non-suspicious, since scum cares about appearances. So, I'd say his move is townier than scum.

I don't have opinions about anyone else.

[Maduisha]

Also, I don't think explaining game mechanics is necessarily a scummy thing in newbie queue either, but I think DkKoba is pushing Enomis because the content he explained were things people didn't ask about. If a newbie asks and you explain, nothing looks weird as it's fulfilling a request. But if your posts are 50% content and 50% random wiki-explanation, I can see how it looks like fluff to pad posts.

[Maduisha]

How did you change the title under your name?

There was an April event in Site Ideas>Player Titles called entitlement that allowed you to change it yourself. I think the titles self-created in that thread are going to expire in a couple of days. I didn't know what titles meant for people on this forum when I requested this one, so I'm kind of glad it will expire soon.

[Maduisha]

Welcome to the game! We only need one more replacement and we're ready to fully play the game. As you can see, there aren't many posts, so hopefully you'll catch up and give us some insight of what you think soon.

[Maduisha]

Theres another slot im interested in rn and I'm gonna start pushing on them soon

I'm sorry if answering this sort of ruins some aspect of the push you had planned, but why announce it like this? So far I find your content to be pretty towny, but this pinged me a bit because in my experience, people that post about how they're going to do things later are usually scum.

I get that you might not have the time to do it right now, but I want to understand the purpose of announcing the push beforehand.

[Maduisha]

Ah, gotcha... I hope I didn't ruin the momentum for that, but I feel like I might have.

[Maduisha]

That's fun, I guess. I get bored easily when I'm not the protagonist.

May I ask what's on your mind?

[Maduisha]

Alright, I've reread and I'm ready to play. I'm still getting used to the new interface here, so going to apologize in advance for badly formatted posts.

I usually hardpush one player at a time, but tbh this game seems a bit slower-paced than what I'm used to, so I'm gonna try to get a couple balls rolling at once.

First, I don't think clemency scumslipped. I followed the logic, but it's a huge reach. I often address players who's alignment I'm not sure of as though they are town, I just intuitively like giving people the benefit of the doubt. In general, I'm hesitant to try to determine someone's alignment based on individual lines. This is a lesson I've learned recently, but these sorts of "slips" don't end up being as alignment-indicative as I used to think, and I'm trying to move towards more holistic assessments of players and slots. With that in mind, I actually think clemency is pretty towny based on the opening pages. Rn I wanna hear from enomis on that.

The second thing is, the most questionable post I saw on re-read was probably #66 by Maduisha. I’m gonna quote some of the lines from that post:
[referring to a TR on clemency]: “this slot stays null for me as I don't find his content to be alignment indicative, but I'm getting slight town vibes from it and I want to see more”
[referring to a TR on Ydrasse]: “Ydrasse looks town for me. I know it's early to say this, but I get a gut feeling from her posts. Maybe it's because we seem to coincide in opinion about stuff right now and I'm being a bit biased.”
[referring to a TR on DkKoba]: “DkKoba seems to really want to get the game moving, which is a good thing, so I'm townleading him right now too.”
It’s kind of wild to me to have three TR’s on page 3 of a forum game, but more than that I find the way the reads are phrased really questionable. There’s a sort of hedging tone w.r.t. each of the three reads and honestly I’ve just seen lines like this from scum players. The one in Ydrasse in particular, the sort of “hivemind” read has always been really weak to me. Like, someone outed the same general read at the same time as you, so you TR them? Idk just feels ingenuine.

Yeah, I think there's some terminology confusion here, so I'm going to try to explain what I meant in that post. I like to classify people as:

- Null (cannot read yet).
- Town/scum lean (weak read but already feel like I see alignment indicative elements and would like to see more from them).
- Town/scum read (firm read that I feel like I can back with sufficient reasons).
- Lock town/scum (when my mind is set on someone's alignment for the rest of the game).

These are terms I used in previous games, and I learned them from other players using them as well.

When you said it's wild to townread 3 players so soon, I'm assuming you understood from it that I firmly believe they are town already. That is not the case, what I'm saying is that I think they are displaying behavior that lets on on their intentions, although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues. The fact that you called my reads not genuine is bothering me a little bit. The game has barely started, I feel like you should take some time to see more interaction from a slot before saying something like that. But fine, I'll put myself on your shoes and flesh out the reads a bit so you can see where I come from:

Clemancy: I said he's null for me because he hasn't produced content that is AI, but I felt his attitude felt a slight bit towny. I'm not reading him as town, I'm saying that I like his attitude so far.

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

I would also like to address DkKoba's concern about me, but it's a bit difficult considering he voted me and then said his reasons were the same as yours, so I hope this answers reaches both of you. If anyone has questions, I'll happily answer, because I want to be transparent with my way of thinking so we can all be on the same page.

I hope that clarifies some of my thought process.

[Maduisha]

Also, I want to hear Midwaybear's thoughts on the current wagons, because he has been posting in the previous page but displayed no opinion on the pushes or anything much. I get that he was distracted by the "pivot" mistake and stuff, but I feel it's weird that his next post is about some trivial thing like GTKAS instead of commenting on what's going on in the thread. I get asking unrelated questions when there's not much going on at the time, but refusing to interact with the thread as a whole when there are multiple discussion points feels a bit strange for me and I would want to know what does he see right now.

[Maduisha]

I'm rereading page 5, but the push of Enomis still feels a little... empty... even if it comes from slots I'm more confident about.

I'm slightly liking that he's pissed at DK for his attitude, even. I feel like town are more likely to display negative emotions like frustration and such.

[Maduisha]

Not really, the only scummy behaviors I've seen are pretty weak.

One would be DK being like "I want to build a town block" but nah, the rest of his content feels towny. The other would be Midway being a bit evasive. He's going to talk when he sees this, so that's the best direction to get some more content to work with, I feel. I think that will also bring some more Apogee content because he's watching Midway, so that's interesting because his slot is pretty null to me right now.

What about you? Enomis/Midway scum leans? Do you have anything else in mind?

[Maduisha]

Actually, let's get the ball rolling a bit, because I feel like I might get a bit shrugged off if he doesn't see a vote?

VOTE: Midwaybear

Midway, I want to know what did you find out by rereading! And I would also like to know why did you fluff post in 113 when there were conversations going on. What do you feel about the new guy and DK pushing me together? And the ongoing Enomis discussion? Active lurking feels scummy to me and I want to know why did you decide to not interact with the thread there.

[Maduisha]

Spoiler: Enomis Post 65

Spoiler: Apogee post 64

I've been reading back through the thread, and although I don't feel I have solid reads a few things stood out.

I just keep thinking about the pretty quick 3 person wagon on Enomis that then Clemency withdrew from. Clemency's withdrawal could be a scum move to not be seen as wagoning too hard too early? But I'm not sure it really makes more sense for him to withdraw as a maf than as a town who just didn't want a big push yet. Feel like I still need to see more to make a firm guess on the individual players involved, but either way something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird.

Obviously want to see the other 2 players/their replacements. Although it could be a time zone or schedule thing I would like to hear more from Maduisha, who contributed very quickly to that above wagon, answered one question, and hasn't posted since. Again, I don't have scumreads on anyone but think there is something to this situation.

I'll probably not be on much longer tonight but will take another read tomorrow morning.

I think you are thinking too much into the wagon. Clemency and Maduisha votes were RVS. DkKoba pushed the wagon because he thought I was scummy. What was weird for you about this wagon?

Yeah, I'm probably thinking too much about it but the specific part that I'm hung up on is DkKoba joining it, Clemency almost immediately leaving it, and them then arguing about that move for a page. Feels like someone there has a deeper motive? I'm not really sure how to take Clemency's recent claim that they were just testing a strategy with the whole DkKoba argument.

------------------

In other areas, I have a mild suspicion on midwaybear. Feels like they are posting just enough to avoid looking like they aren't posting but they haven't offered many opinions. The slightly weird backtrack between posts 58 and 60 on the townblocks has me as well. "what is a scumblock anyways?" doesn't read super genuine to me.

I'll move my vote to VOTE: midwaybear for now.

------------------

clemency is town

Want to elaborate? Saw your post while typing mine up and I'd love to hear the reasoning.

It's mostly about this post. He seems to be reading more into the Enomis wagon than I am, specifically about Clemency's move. Also when he said he's going to vote Midway "for now" I feel a bit weird. Telling them it's temporary is the same as not voting, right? I see no pressure, so I'm unsure about this slot.

[Maduisha]

Hey Midway, I asked you before (you know, when I voted you) why did you start fluff posting unrelated things to the game instead of engaging with the discussion or refraining to post? What was the objective of asking what GTKAS when people are discussing reads? I'm honestly confused.

Also, hi Apogee. I want to ask you the meaning of voting Midway and saying you're voting them "for now". Why are you announcing your position is non commital? I wish to understand the meaning of that vote, because it certainly wasn't to apply pressure.

Pedit:

@Joqiza, I'm aware it can be seen as scum indicative not to provide scum reads, but the game has barely begun and I'm certainly not coming up with random reads just to fill a town quota or something. I'm asking questions to analyze reactions for now and that's all you'll be getting from me in that regard for a bit now.

[Maduisha]

I also fluff because I'm confused and have nothing really to say
sort of like an activity post

pedit: yeah I agree DK should try to stop tunneling

Alright, this is what kind of worried me, though. Activity post translates to you wanting others to know you're there, but you add nothing. I think active lurking is not a good look, you could have tried to ask a question on topic to get the thread going if you had nothing to say about the ongoing discussion.

That being said, scum that fluffpost usually aren't that blatant and avoid admitting to it, so I'm conflicted because the action is scummy, but the behavior behind it feels towny.

[Maduisha]

And unlike votato, your posts on page 7 did not give me town reads on you. Nor scum read.

I want to ask you about this, because I feel like showing emotion is a tell on its own. Both you and DK getting frustrated at each other for lack of better communication feels town vs town, in my opinion. Not because I don't think scum doesn't dare to 1v1 early on, but because I can feel the frustration from both is genuine. Did you really get no vibes out of this interaction with DK, or are you saying this because you've played with him before and this is within his scum range?

[Maduisha]

you two are the scumpair. its obvious from your posts, your interactions, and your thoughts about other people.

Care to elaborate? I'm reading Apogee's ISO and I don't get it. Is it because we're leaning town on both Ydrasse and DK and we both voted Midway? Do you think scum mirror the partner's actions? I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol.

[Maduisha]

it is interesting that you agree about so much though. could you each elaborate on your reads on ydrasse, DK, and midway?

I did elaborate on Ydrasse and DK already when the new guy voted me, here in case you didn't read:

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

Add to those reads that Enomis vs DK looks town vs town because of evident frustration that doesn't look fake to me.

Midway I don't know what to think about, I called him out for doing something scummy and not only did he admit to it, but kept doing it more afterwards. So on one hand I don't think scum is so blatant, but at the same time doing that after being called out about it is kind of WIFOM and could be done on purpose. I'm trying my best not to hard tunnel based on WIFOM because I single handledly lost my last game due to paranoia, so I'm trying to see what serious content can his slot produce before jumping the gun.

[Maduisha]

@Maduisha what did you call me out for? fluffing?

Yeah. Remember when I voted you? Geez, it's like my post was invisible.

You kept doing it here and here:

PS is that dr. Strange?

PS: how do you pronounce enomis? I am thinking it sounds like "enormous", but how a baby would pronounce it.

So I don't know if you're town and actually don't give a damn about continuing to do something people called scummy after they do so, or if you're doing it on purpose trying to wifom.

[Maduisha]

it's weird that you keep on trying to push this when nobody else cares anymore

Except I'm not pushing you right now? I'm answering Votato's question about what do I think about you and I gave my thought on your slot.

i think its a bit premature to call people out for fluff-posting. also, other people like me have definitely been fluffposting. why not call them out? Its not like all of midways posts were fluff, and this early in the game any content is good content more or less. why do you think its bad to let people post as much as they want for now? seems to me like thats giving them more rope to hang themselves with

I called him out because at the time there was movement in the thread... you know, a lively discussion. Then he posts a promise he didn't fulfill ("I'm gonna reread") and his next post has nothing to do with the ongoing discussion. Context matters.

[Maduisha]

Another guy that makes fake promises of rereading and acts blatant about it. Hi, Clemency.

Why does this game have to be wifom fest.

P-edit: Oh, come on!

[Maduisha]

This game. This game. This game.

I think I'm going to sleep before I start writing paranoia fueled shit, good night.

[Maduisha]

but that's not really fluffing. that's more like not keeping up with a promise.
My three scumreads were actually Clemency, votato, and you
I didn't like votato's push against DK, and his explanation for why he stopped is basically like "I give up just ignore the argument"
I didn't like Clemency's early game and he gave me nervous vibes.
Madiusha we also have to be careful of. She seems ok as of now, but I still want to keep an eye on her

good night both of you

pedit: wow

I posted examples of you doing both things, please don't deny one with the other, because I can just quote you again if you want to see what I'm talking about.

Okay, thanks for explaining what's on your mind. Can you now explain the meaning of 225? What were you waiting for, exactly? I'm asking because seeing you suddenly spit reads after being put at L-2 feels scummy and I want to know if there was a different trigger.

Also, could you tell me your reasons to scumread me? You explained Votato and Clemency, and then there's nothing for me. How can people say "oh, you're right" if you provide no reasons? How can I comment on it myself? Honestly, you're making me think the scumread is because I voted you, and pushed you, and refuse to unvote.

[Maduisha]

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

[Maduisha]

Anyway, Ydrasse, I welcome inquiries. So hit me up with doubts and stuff that feels unclear.

[Maduisha]

@Maduisha:

For me, it depends on how the emotions is showed.
1) I could get his frustration of the questions which feel like repeating and what he thinks I am nitpicking. But this could come from town or scum.
2) But I am actually not nitpicking and those are legit arguments in my eyes. I wanted to know his thought process and he just waved them away.
3) Furthermore, there is actually a chance that those emotions could be faked and he is just using this to try act out this emotion outbreak to distract town and use this to wave away my argument.
(This is one tactic that scum sometimes use, just repeat saying that your arguments are rubbish.)

All could be possible. Thus, I find no reason to read those emotions. as town. Nor scum.
Put yourself in his shoes. If you are town koba and you think that people is nit picking, what would you do? If you are scum koba would you do the same thing?


-----------------------------------------------
2) For people on bear wagon, do you think the post i quoted is scum bear? I think we should push other slots instead.

Basically, you are describing wifom and saying you can't trust emotions to be a towntell. I can't deny the potential of it being strategically used as a scum defense to be seen more as town, but I do feel it's a towntell in their case because DK has displayed behavior I read as town, so I would say this emotional read enhances the towny feeling rather than it defines it for me. I hope you can see where I'm coming from. Of course, if you didn't feel their previous behavior to be towny, then you can't read it the same way I do, so that answers the question I asked before. As I can see we're not in the same page about that slot, can you tell me what vibes are you getting from DK? (Brushing the emotion part aside, the rest of content).

As for the question you posed for Midway pushers: I feel you in the sense that that post and some others don't feel scummy to me, but I have a perception tone with his slot and I'm torn. I see both scummy actions and town behavior, so I'm confused about his motivations. Putting myself in his shoes, the post you linked makes sense both as town!Midway and scum!Midway that encounters DK again and wants them to feel their alignment is town. You get what I mean, right? I'm a fan of taking the most simple solution whenever I'm torn like this and that would be that he's actually town and I'm getting hung up on behavior I personally don't like that isn't necessarily scummy, but at the same time he keeps doing things that feel confusing and give me vibes of both alignments. I'm trying to interact with other slots too, but can you blame me for trying to get a better read of the slot that itches me the most?

[Maduisha]

I know you're not there yet because you're only on page 2, but they started to blatantly ignore Enomis and handwave his posts, so I don't think DK is concerned about appearances, looking town, and all that stuff lol.

[Maduisha]

Like, if you want to look relatable you don't just suddenly start saying "I'm not gonna talk to this person anymore." It doesn't look like towncred farming.

Or maybe it's just me.

[Maduisha]

Votes are not just to lynch a player, they also serve the purpose of creating pressure so they'll participate more and generate alignment indicative content. As for what else did you do, I generally feel making promises of future actions to be scummy, especially if unfulfilled. You did that, Clemency did it too, Joqiza did it as well, so the tell isn't perfect because there aren't 3 scums in newbie games. But I think it still helps reading a player's mindset and the intentions behind their actions.

[Maduisha]

I'm guaranteed to be misreading a minimum of 1 person there and that's kind of tilting me because that means there are town players with scum mindset in this game and that only complicates things.

[Maduisha]

okok I'll actually reread this time sorry

I don't even know why are you trying to convince me of anything when you admitted it yourself, lol.

[Maduisha]

but that's not really fluffing. that's more like not keeping up with a promise.
My three scumreads were actually Clemency, votato, and you
I didn't like votato's push against DK, and his explanation for why he stopped is basically like "I give up just ignore the argument"
I didn't like Clemency's early game and he gave me nervous vibes.
Madiusha we also have to be careful of. She seems ok as of now, but I still want to keep an eye on her

good night both of you

pedit: wow

I posted examples of you doing both things, please don't deny one with the other, because I can just quote you again if you want to see what I'm talking about.

Okay, thanks for explaining what's on your mind. Can you now explain the meaning of 225? What were you waiting for, exactly? I'm asking because seeing you suddenly spit reads after being put at L-2 feels scummy and I want to know if there was a different trigger.

Also, could you tell me your reasons to scumread me? You explained Votato and Clemency, and then there's nothing for me. How can people say "oh, you're right" if you provide no reasons? How can I comment on it myself? Honestly, you're making me think the scumread is because I voted you, and pushed you, and refuse to unvote.

Anyway, now that you're here, can you address this post of mine? I think you either didn't read it or ignored me again. I am slowly becoming the invisible woman, I can feel it.

[Maduisha]

I think you're right. That is mostly why I scumread you. You seemed to be the only person seriously pushing me, so I thought you viewed me as an easy mislynch or something.
The meaning of 225 is exactly what it read like. I scumread you, clemency, and votato. Sometimes it is better not to tell people you scumread them because they don't have their guard up.
I wrote 258 before DK voted me, but posted it after. I think I revealed my reads because joqiza told me to.
I know I fluffed, but I don't really think I promised something and didn't do it.

I have so many problems with this post and I'll try to explain it the most simple way I can because I know it looks like I'm deathtunneling you and I want you to see your own posts as if they weren't yours for the sake of you understanding my argument. Okay, here I go:

- You say 225 happened because you didn't want

Votato

,

Clemency

, and

me

to have our guards up, pressumably because you want to do a reaction test or see more of our slots before revealing, because you think uncovering the scumreads can influence our behavior and ruin your accusation. Okay, fair, moving on.

- You say you wrote 258 before DK voted you and put you un L-2. His vote is 254, which means this is not true as far as chronological order indicates. This means, that if you are town, you had the post drafted, but the forum's new message preview function impeded you from posting the readpost before he voted you. This is entirely possible, I am not calling you a liar. But... put yourself in our shoes. How do we know this is true? I can say the same thing and have it be a lie. I suggest you do not use facts that are only ever verifiable for yourself as a defense, because otherwise I can end every accusation towards me by saying "I'm town because I know I'm town."

- I am aware Joqiza asked you to post the reads, but then doesn't that defeat the first point you made? Joqiza making a random request has nothing to do with

Votato

,

Clemency

, and

me

, does it...

- I just quoted yourself admitting to not fulfill a promise of rereading... sure, it fulfilled way later after you apologized, but in my eyes you escaped the discussion at hand with that post, which is the problematic part here.

Please, try to see your own posts as if they weren't yours to help me understand the logic behind them. If you are town, I'm digging a hole I'm not sure I'll be able to get out of...

[Maduisha]

To be honest, I believe that the preview impeded it for real because the other option is too unlikely. But posting the reads before you were satisfied with our slots still makes no sense aften making a point about waiting. I'm glad you understand now why I'm confused.

A part of me believes it's because I angered you, since the readpost was addressed at me even if it was because Joqiza requested it, somehow.

[Maduisha]

Hm... I want to unvote because the attitude is good and I'm seeing honesty, but on the other side that readlist reveal makes no sense...

Midway, do you think you can you sell me your Clemency/Votato wagons? Can you expand on the reason for your reads on them or are they just gutpings for now? It's okay if you have nothing.

I feel so damn lost in this game.

[Maduisha]

A tiny thing? It is a contradiction, isn't it? Why is hesitating because of a glaring contradiction scummy? His attitude clashes with his actions and I'm having a hard time reading his slot, I've been saying it for a while now. And I have not unvoted while doing so because I still think it's worth it to see what else can he produce under pressure.

[Maduisha]

I am interested in seeing you trying to sell my wagon to the rest, though. Maybe that will move things a bit.

[Maduisha]

its not a contradiction to have both fluff posts and content-posts. the key is whether there are any content posts, and whether the content posts are genuine. I mix in plenty of shitposts with content posts. it doesnt make the shitposts scummy. and you made that judgement way too early in the game. you're also wayyyy to confident in your 3 scumreads this early, which is why it makes sense that scum!maduisha would hedge by expressing self-doubt. Do you townread anyone? why?

Have you read my posts at all? I've expressed townread towards DK, townlean on Ydrasse, and Enomis, and have explained my reasons for each already. And the contradiction I see is not that he has a mixture of tone in his posts, it's that he said "I have 3 scumreads but I'm not gonna reveal them yet because that will influence them when they post if they know I scumread them", only to reveal them anyway when Joqiza asked him to, without fulfilling his self-established condition.

[Maduisha]

UNVOTE:

I think I need to relax and accept that the most likely answer is the most simple one. Impatience vs opportunism... I think I'm weighing on impatience here because of his personality traits.

[Maduisha]

Apogee and Votato, do you have any new reads from the latest pages? (Yes, I know Votato just voted me).

It's fine if you don't, no point in making reads out of thin air, but it won't hurt to ask.

[Maduisha]

I didn't back off because of your vote but because he made that post with an emoji and I realized I'm tunneling on a person that most likely fits the behavior he is describing, lol.

But yeah, I understand you have no reason to swallow that. 2 votes, 1 of which has nothing to do with any of this makes me abandon an L-2 wagon as scum, sure! I'm going to have fun seeing you try to sell my wagon because it's the first time it happens to me. I'm so excited, man.

[Maduisha]

Midway, please give your reasons too... come on, you have Ydrasse, DK, Joqiza, and Votato to please. All of those voted me/accused me at least once. With you, that's enough votes for a lynch, I want to see it unfold!

[Maduisha]

I just find it very exciting. I lolhammered on my first game and not even then did I get lynched. I want to see people selling me as scum.

I want to see who hops onto the wagon and why.

[Maduisha]

Any wagon is a good wagon for scrutiny, including mine. This game needs movement and accusations, and reasons flying.

[Maduisha]

What is anti-town on wanting a wagon going? Wagon means votes. Votes mean reasons. It brings people's thoughts out and it gives information post flip, if the flip happens. I just said it, any wagon is valuable just to see how people move in/out of them, the timing of said movements, the reasons for the movements, etc.

[Maduisha]

I'm going to try to explain it again. Don't you think you can extract information out of how people have been going in/out of your own wagon, Midway? But it is a stagnant wagon, and a new one is refreshing and can bring potential content from quieter slots. For example, Apogee coming and saying he opposes my lynch. Or Clemency suddenly comes and says "Votato is right, let's get this slot lynched." Then, regardless of if I get lynched or not, you get new information because they have voiced their opinion and acted on it.

Does it make sense? Honestly, I'm trying my best to make you understand I'm not saying "I wanna die, yay death!"

[Maduisha]

There's no reaction test, the reasons to vote me or not vote me still exist and showing up to the thread and doing either is information in itself regardless of them reading these posts of mine. Wagons being informative was never a secret, lol.

[Maduisha]

Tone feels incredibly stilted from page 1, never improves, literally just read post #299 “Anyway, Ydrasse, I welcome inquiries.” feel bad pushing that because there’s some evidence of language barrier “or at least achieve not to frustrate you guys.” More importantly: reads with little to no backing, I already pointed out that she has three townreads (or “townleans”) by page 3 of the game, super questionable. Tone improved when I pushed them, had a sort of quiet defensiveness. Then got worse again, post #253 reads super theatrical though like it’s 11 pages, game isn’t that bad yet chill out, seems extremely insincere. Slot could make for a good lynch regardless of alignment tbh if town they’re gonna get mishammered at some point and I don’t think they’re PR. Post #306 is such garbage, like you’re expressing doubts about your midway push but you’re constantly doubling down on them why not flip to another slot when you’re not getting anything out of this one push. Analysis: scum read

Little to no backing for my reads? I explained them several times now, one of them to you. I explained what I saw and why I saw it the best I can. I will not make up "more solid" reasons to make people think I'm onto something when I might not be. I try to be confident with my reads within a reasonable margin because otherwise people don't take you seriously, but at the same time I'm constantly trying to get some reality checks, like when I backtracked from Midway, because I was hung up on my own read being good, but then I realized that a dude that doesn't seem to realize posting unrelated stuff disrupts discussion is also very likely to be the same kind of person that makes a point that self-defeats. And a world in which Midway actually has this personality and I'm reading him wrong is a more probable world than Midway playing 4D chess, I acknowledged it and took a step back to considerate other slots.

About getting irritated in page 11: it's more that seeing scum mentality from town gets me frustrated than me getting impatient for Clemency to reread. Him not seeing anything wrong with what he's doing means he's going to be a liability if he's town, do you feel me?

And about why didn't I jump into a different wagon after dropping Midway's: As you might have already seen, I've been tunneling him mostly. My attention in his slot means I haven't watched others as carefully. The other player in my radar was Apogee, but he wasn't posting much at the moment, so I'm not going to suddenly case him without a more tangible vibe, even if I'm getting gut pings, because that's shitpushing and I can't expect him to defend in a reasonable manner if I have no argument, and I can't expect anyone to support me either for the same reason. I hope that makes sense.

My slot making for a good lynch is something I can get behind, though. If people start being unsure about me and they end up changing their minds and lynch someone else that happens to be town, it's very likely that the next lynch will be the slot they've been itching about (aka: me). If it's a matter of getting flipped earlier or later, I prefer the option that misdirects people the least. And any and all flips are informative because of association reads, so it wouldn't be a worthless flip if I know I'm a controversial slot to many of you.

[Maduisha]

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

it isn't that it's unnatural in structure so much as that you feel scripted. the way you act and talk feels like you're intentionally putting on a show/display.

reading for tone isn't everything, granted. i find myself agreeing with some of your content — 331 feels strong to me! it feels more like you're trying to analyze the content in a way that i can get behind, and you do have points that i'm not ignoring. midwaybear has been just... all over the place and very difficult to pin down.

the fact is that i feel like this entire time your motivation hasn't been... the best, the way it's been so single-mindedly focused onto a slot that doesn't give us much in the end and it's been clear.

that and the way 352, 354, and 357 unfold feel so just weird that i can't ignore it. like, if you've been theatrical before you're putting on the whole damn play with those. i dunno what you were going for here being like "yay! i can get content! from this" means when you didn't really like... switch to focusing anyone after unvoting midwaybear. sure, you can get information from it, but you've announced the intentions of it, which people all know how wagons go, and it falls flat. why not just... start pushing on someone else instead of waiting to reap some content from a supposed wagon.

dunno, just seems weird to me.

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

[Maduisha]

I get the feeling midway is trying to force their play to be different from last game because votato and I are at this table. if he flips scum I think votato is strongly leaning town because of that. I find a very stilted "trying hard to be different and force towntells" sorta vibe from him thus far and I encourage people to vote for him with me

why change a winning strategy?

they are just salty that I got an ez dub
if i was scum, i would use the same strategy like i did in 1997. You're right though. I don't really know how to react to pressure.

I don't even think you're that scummy anymore, but you have to realize that kind of affirmation is wifom, come on. I can say "I would never repeat my scum meta twice in a row!" and "Why would I change my strategy if it worked once?" and you have no way to tell if I'm saying the truth. That's why these posts of yours are empty, but I get that you don't realize.

It's the same reason why I think bringing up self-meta is futile, I can't gain anything from showing people my scum game and telling them I'm not acting like that and therefore I'm town. They can't know if I'm distancing from my scum meta on purpose. I hope you see now that stating things only you can verify as if it were a fact backfires quickly because it has no foundation of trust.

[Maduisha]

maduisha has a similar playstyle to another player who I know and I'm going to read them accordingly to that and that playstyle typically is never obvious alignment wise on d1 but always becomes more obvious the more the game goes on. I implore extra attention on maduisha from d2 forward. although I have to say she has not done much gamesolving and has instead detracted the push on her into an AtE argument, which I don't like. Maduisha if you are town, I want you to defend yourself, not play like this. You are not helping town and are just using non-logic to get people to hold off on you.

But... I don't actually think I'm appealing at the emotions of Ydrasse and Joqiza, I'm trying to explain the logic behind my actions to them and why I believe for my arguments to be true.

I didn't OMGUS them, I didn't call their reads shit, I didn't try to make them feel like lynching me is a bad idea because "I'm obviously town." I honestly can't see what you're saying.

But the whole "please watch her d2+" feels like a fulfillment of what I theorized before, I'm becoming a slot that definitely gets flipped now or later. I think I actually don't mind flipping D1 if my content is to become wifom otherwise. I don't think I can impact the game positively if I get chain lynched later and if I make it to lylo it's just going to be a mess.

[Maduisha]

you have a vote on them and you pushed on them, and now you have cold feet?

No, I unvoted him a couple of pages ago because I realized his behavior explained by his personality is more likely than Midway having some very elaborate plan that includes contradicting himself and posting obvious fluff after being called out. As much as it frustrates me, the lack of self awareness doesn't look like scum trying to look town.

[Maduisha]

It just means he's town with scummy behavior, which isn't unheard of. Not exactly helpful, but still town.

That's going to be a headache later on, for granted.

[Maduisha]

If you're town you don't have much to fear as your actions should reflect you as town. Or are you not confident in your ability?

I am currently judging your level/playstyle and you're a slot I 100% need to hash out because you don't have an impatient/ego-y playstyle.

Why are you afraid you might get scumread? Are you planning on doing scummy things? Or can you not rebut and prove town motivation? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here when you are asking to be lynched because a) clearly you don't want to be lynched b) you are 100% AtEing like I said in a, you are not trying to get lynched here.

I'm not "afraid of getting scumread", I'm just conscious that people are voting me, which means they don't trust me, and if a different town gets the rope D1, I'm likely to be chain lynched later because people have regrets. You get what I'm saying, right? The game changes substantially once one round of night actions happen, so I would trade another player making it to D2 over getting there myself if the majority of town are not to believe my words afterwards, anyway.

If he's town then why don't you unvote him? And I'd like an explaination what you find town-motivated about his play.

I unvoted long ago.

[Maduisha]

I read you as a moreso competent player with clear mafia experience, so I feel I can better question you in meaningful ways and get better information than most of the table. (joqiza if ur reading this I didn't forget you dw)

I actually have only 3 games here and prior to that I had only played with friends with very different rules (all players are PR, games start in night 0 instead of day 1). But ask away!

[Maduisha]

I think I already explained why Midway is town for me right now, he's like too scummy to be scum. Like, he doesn't care about looking town even after having a 3-man wagon on himself and admitted to contradict himself without giving a fuck lol.

[Maduisha]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, DK, but I actually I'm going with that. I think I needed to stop my hard tunnel and consider the likeness of his play being fabricated vs actually having a personality that gives 0 fucks about appearances when playing town and that's what I'm running with.

He said he wasn't going to reveal his scumreads until he saw more about other slots and then revealed them anyway the first time someone asked him about it. Like... what? It's a glaring contradiction, but I don't see alignment indicative purpose for it, he just did it because he was impatient and angry at my push.

[Maduisha]

maduisha, why arent you voting anyone? you dont think anyone has done anything scummy? you disagree with all the arguments everyone else has made? I could see a maduisha midway scumpair here actually. please give me your top 2 scumreads maduisha, with reasoning about why.

can we please get momentum going on this wagon?

I already explained this like thrice? Please read the thread, I'm getting exhausted by you doing this so much.

[Maduisha]

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

okay, you have a wagon on you. good, we can see this. we can see interactions on it.

you have to understand how it makes you look though to just sit back and say. "yep, gonna wait for people to interact and vote on this instead of trying to actively find scum myself and instead let them come out of the woodwork." right? like. you can analyze the wagon on you all you want, more power to you, but you need to also be doing some of your own legwork in this situation. it's frustrating to not have any real push from you and instead spend most of the game focusing on a slot and then poof, nothing, no vote, just gonna hang out on the off chance someone does something that i can point out.

I will repeat myself again... I'm not going to push people to fill a town quota! I don't have a requirement to scumread people immediately after the slot I thought was scummy towntells a bit. Just because I don't have anything going against anyone currently doesn't mean I'm not trying to find scum. I'm getting tired of "if you're not pursuing a slot then you are scummy" logic. Then why don't you go after Clemency? He posted afk shit, pushed DK, backtracked and townread him and called it a day and hasn't come back ever since. Ahh, because not pushing anyone is actually not AI and you just want people to trust my wagon or...?

Speaking about contributions, you have a relatively small post count, so I'm guessing you have a lot of thoughts that haven't made it to posts, yes? Can you give a read list or do you not have a fleshed out one yet? If okay if you don't, but I want to see where you're at.

[Maduisha]

I don't get why do I have to commit or magically scumread someone after I have dropped my current train of thought just a bit ago to get a different perspective but alright.

L-1 is cool with me, do you guys want me to claim? Although I think it's easy to see what my role is without me having to say anything, anyway, so it's kind of pointless.

[Maduisha]

I said I was watching Apogee before, but I feel much better about his slot after his conversation with Joqiza, what can I say.

[Maduisha]

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

okay, you have a wagon on you. good, we can see this. we can see interactions on it.

you have to understand how it makes you look though to just sit back and say. "yep, gonna wait for people to interact and vote on this instead of trying to actively find scum myself and instead let them come out of the woodwork." right? like. you can analyze the wagon on you all you want, more power to you, but you need to also be doing some of your own legwork in this situation. it's frustrating to not have any real push from you and instead spend most of the game focusing on a slot and then poof, nothing, no vote, just gonna hang out on the off chance someone does something that i can point out.

I will repeat myself again... I'm not going to push people to fill a town quota! I don't have a requirement to scumread people immediately after the slot I thought was scummy towntells a bit. Just because I don't have anything going against anyone currently doesn't mean I'm not trying to find scum. I'm getting tired of "if you're not pursuing a slot then you are scummy" logic. Then why don't you go after Clemency? He posted afk shit, pushed DK, backtracked and townread him and called it a day and hasn't come back ever since. Ahh, because not pushing anyone is actually not AI and you just want people to trust my wagon or...?

Speaking about contributions, you have a relatively small post count, so I'm guessing you have a lot of thoughts that haven't made it to posts, yes? Can you give a read list or do you not have a fleshed out one yet? If okay if you don't, but I want to see where you're at.

why are you getting so defensive right now, and trying to turn attention onto someone else? i'm focusing on you right now, not clemency. as i've said before i thought throughout the game your tone and posts have sounded relatively scripted and it's not gotten any better.

i've already made as much clear about who i find most suspicious: you. and enomis, given the fact i was going after him earlier. i am voting you and have been as you have been my biggest scumread and you've done little to change that.

Why am I defensive one word: frustration.

Tell me you're not going to disregard my posts D2 if I make it. I'd rather get over it already. Also I asked for a read list, what are your townreads? I wanted to know more of what you think, not just what you find scummy.

[Maduisha]

I'm not scum, I'm just tired of scum mindset flying everywhere in this game and suddenly not having a scumread like if it was cooking instant noodles is claiming scum.

I'm so done with this game if that's the case. I will not self hammer because that destroys the last piece of evidence, but honestly... meh.

[Maduisha]

u are frustrating me because ur AtE makes me want to townread u but I am ignoring that bc your actions are not town in this instance where you are just insisting on flopping over and not helping town. I put you at L-1 so you would contribute, not so you would claim and ask to get lynched.

Okay, but what do I contribute with if I recently had a mindset shift and I need to evaluate more content to see a lead that doesn't lead me to bear paranoia again? Honestly, I really don't know where you want me to get the reads from *this instant* and I'm not going to fabricate them just to please you.

[Maduisha]

Alright, well. I'm gonna deliver what would be my townreads and go some PoE on it to offer some clarity as to where I'm at because that's the least thing I can offer.

Townreads:

- DK: because of what I explained previously, I think aggressiveness is a good town indication, not being afraid to use their vote to explore slots. Pretty town behavior + frustration at Enomis makes the towny tone more apparent.
- Midway: I scumread this slot until he proved not to understand what I thought was a wifom strategy.

Townleans:

- Ydrasse: Not higher up because of smaller post count that leaves me wanting to see more, but overall mindmelding with her until she pushed Enomis, which I do not agree with.
- Enomis: I think wanting to get rid of Clemency due to policy lynch is towny mindset *even if Clemency is town*, because I understand the logic behind not wanting an afk slot that shitposts when not afk when lylo comes. Frustration towards DK looks genuine to me.

Nulls:
- Votato: has an aggressively profile just like DK but I'm not seeing towntells from them other than that. Interested in seeing more. I liked that he was like the only person not questioning that I like a wagon on myself at first? So at least he understands the value of it.
- Clemency: his posts are fluff and "omg I posted with my alt account, sorry guys, back to being afk." Aside from that, he has scumread DK and promptly townread them back and promptly disappeared. I see an alarming lack of content from this slot but general disinterest about exploring him, so meh. And when I tried to talk to him last time he went away. I can't read this slot.
- Joqiza: post volume is low but content is dense. His discussion with Apogee helped me see Apogee in a better light, but I'm not sure I'm understanding Joqiza when he accuses me. It feels like I answer him and he forgets what I told him...? I need to see more to get a better idea.
- Apogee: I was feeling bad about this slot because of his vote being accompanied by an explicit lack of commitment, but after reading the Joqiza vs Apogee 1v1, I'm more inclined to believe my initial scumlean was shallow and I need to re-assess his slot.

That's all I've got.

[Maduisha]

Votato, I'm comfortable with you coming back and voting again. I don't really get anything out of your unvote, so don't bother. I feel like an L-1 push will get more opinions out of Enomis/Joqiza/Apogee/Clemency, which is something we all want, so I don't like what you are doing here.

[Maduisha]

sorry i was lowkey waiting for votato to reply to your question. i don't think maduisha is gonna reply immediately so i'm not waiting with bated breath for that one.

pedit: oh there we are. and maduisha... please. from that poe. who would you vote? who do you think is most likely to be scum?

Clemency because erasing misleading slots is protown, but I want to give him a chance to come and react to the truckload of stuff that was posted since he came back the last time. And I understand the same logic applies to me, so that's why I'm not trying to push people away from my wagon even though I'm getting frustrated.

[Maduisha]

I think Apogee said he got around to read me vs Midway but I can't actually remember if he posted his impressions or not. Brb, fact checking.

[Maduisha]

Hmm, he only asked Midway if he has reasons to SR me. I think my memory is getting hazy.

Meh, I'll be back later when more people have spoken, because I'm just getting all the thread for myself for hours and that's disruptive on its own.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I stayed away from the thread enough since my Apogee/Midway changes of mind and I feel like there's enough content to analyze now. I will quote examples of things that ping me and I will comment on them to flesh out what I'm thinking and why. I'm going to start with my wagon, which is my favorite thing that happened recently, since I don't have to worry about scum bussing anyone (from my perspective, anyway). Let's start.

So, I'd say my wagon starts in post 337 when Votato claims I deserve a counterwagon for pushing Midway more strongly than the rest of people in Midway's wagon, although I already had a vote parked on myself from Ydrasse in post 284. I think nothing of this post because I agree with Votato in that it's interesting to push a slot that has been pushing a different one pretty hard to see if scum would flock onto a counterwagon or if there are crickets as response. Votato starts to argue with me after voting me, pressumably to gauge the legitimacy of my Midway push, however he seems not to have read my posts too well, because he misunderstands what I called a contradiction in Midway's actions, which was the post in which he makes a point of revealing reads only when his scumreads produce more content and then revealing it almost immediately anyway.

Here's Votato's post:

Spoiler:

its not a contradiction to have both fluff posts and content-posts. the key is whether there are any content posts, and whether the content posts are genuine. I mix in plenty of shitposts with content posts. it doesnt make the shitposts scummy. and you made that judgement way too early in the game. you're also wayyyy to confident in your 3 scumreads this early, which is why it makes sense that scum!maduisha would hedge by expressing self-doubt. Do you townread anyone? why?

I think this denotes lack of reading/comprehension, or lack of veracity to his argument with me, because he didn't try to understand my point of view. Also ignored the fact that I explained my townreads before, but I can chalk it up to them being buried. The other ignored point is in the very same page, however.

Moving on. Votato asks Midway why does he scumread Clemency and me:

Spoiler:

i can see madiusha+clemency

why?

because i scumread both of them
still sorta hesitant on madiusha, but I think clemency has been pretty scummy

but why do you scum read them lol. what posts? can you point to inconsistencies or scummy things theyve said?

I feel stronger about clemency being scum than votato
mostly for reasons people have said before
1. I didn't like his early game. I don't think what he first posted was necessarily a scumslip, but I didn't like his explanation.
2. clemency never really attacked anyone, and was mostly on the defense

I know this isn't a lot, but I can't really find anyone else to build a case on. Maybe I am just being lazy though because there have probably been a couple of scumtells so far.

here

I also have a lighter scumread on Madiusha because she seemed to be trying to push a low-hanging-fruit(me). Now, she seems to be eager to get lynched which is weird and somewhat anti-town.
tbh I think clemency is more likely to be scum than madiusha, but I don't like her recent behavior

why is eagerness to get lynched anti-town? i dont think she said shes eager to get lynched. she said shes eager to get wagoned. and getting lynched is not in either alignment's wincon

Here Midway misunderstands my eagerness of getting wagoned for wanting to get straight up lynched, and Votato seems to understand what I'm trying to do here, so I'm townreading this interaction.

The next slot that interacts with my wagon would be Joqiza, who had expressed scumread on me before and does it again in 374, who calls my stance not improving, theatrical, insincere, and a good policy lynch even if I'm town, but he instead moves onto Apogee in 375 and starts a discussion with said slot which ends up in him unvoting but not placing a new vote anywhere despite claiming to scumread slots other than Apogee. I did like the interaction in the sense that it was the most solid Apogee push so far and it did draw content from him that allowed me to see Apogee in a better light, but at the same time I'm not liking Joqiza's stance on the situation. There were 2 votes on me, one of your preferred lynched, why did you not push the vote onto me when you finished clearing Apogee? Afraid to get your feet wet?

Next. Ydrasse comes back. She had a vote parked on me already, so she didn't

need

to squeeze me further because she had already stated a scumread with reasons and a vote long before, yet she charges again, which makes me feel good about the slot in the sense that I don't feel like her words are a political stance to stand at a comfortable place, but rather that she is following her gut. Her post here:

Spoiler:

hey, idk how Coherent i might be tonight because it is also party night for me as well over here, but i find it a bit odd to say that i've been open because from my perspective i've kept my thoughts pretty open-ended. i haven't outed many reads as overtly as some others and most of mine have been fairly forgiving/light at that.

however.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maduisha

i skim this game while i'm working and mull over what i read, and try to figure out as i go, and maduisha's posts were some of the ones i couldn't move past. maduisha feels very... mechanical. i think part of this is gut (234, mainly "I honestly think you just wanted reactions because the thread is kinda dead today, so I'm not gonna take you seriously, lol." which doesn't feel... right to me.) but in part it's posts like 126 (over-explanation of terminology, adding in things that feel fairly obvious like "although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues.") and posts 239, 242, 249 and 253 (which try to hammer home how Paranoid she is.)

i dunno. i'd like to see if maduisha has any actual scumreads? she's pushing on midway but frankly i feel like midway is easy pickings atm because of their lack of contribution. it's good to get content out of them but maduisha said she didn't wanna hard-tunnel anyone, so i'd like to see that.

The explanation about terminology comes with a reason: that joqiza said I had 3 townreads in 5 pages and I thought he misunderstood what leaning town on someone is. If by mechanical you mean my choice of words instead, it may be because I'm not a native speaker and I probably structure my sentences in ways that feel unnatural to you, I don't know.

I don't have a firm scum read yet, but I'm leaning scum on Midway, ye. Also watching Apogee ever since he made that purposely non commital push, but his content feels null for now. And I don't know if Midway looks like low hanging fruit and I'm looking scummy for trying to dig into his slot, but I honestly don't care. If I don't explore the things that ping me "because it might look bad" I might as well not post.

it isn't that it's unnatural in structure so much as that you feel scripted. the way you act and talk feels like you're intentionally putting on a show/display.

reading for tone isn't everything, granted. i find myself agreeing with some of your content — 331 feels strong to me! it feels more like you're trying to analyze the content in a way that i can get behind, and you do have points that i'm not ignoring. midwaybear has been just... all over the place and very difficult to pin down.

the fact is that i feel like this entire time your motivation hasn't been... the best, the way it's been so single-mindedly focused onto a slot that doesn't give us much in the end and it's been clear.

that and the way 352, 354, and 357 unfold feel so just weird that i can't ignore it. like, if you've been theatrical before you're putting on the whole damn play with those. i dunno what you were going for here being like "yay! i can get content! from this" means when you didn't really like... switch to focusing anyone after unvoting midwaybear. sure, you can get information from it, but you've announced the intentions of it, which people all know how wagons go, and it falls flat. why not just... start pushing on someone else instead of waiting to reap some content from a supposed wagon.

dunno, just seems weird to me.

Do not like, however (as I pointed out at the time) that she is implying that I should immediately have a scumread after I change my mind about my 2 most scumleaning slots.

Nex that happens is this, Votato says Clemency or me are scum and that he wants to see bigger wagons if people actually believe this is the case and Midway instantly votes me:

Spoiler:

at this point lots of people seem to think that theres scum in clemency or maduisha. but there arent major wagons on either one. If you really believe something, vote it.

also, im honored to be thought so highly of in the meme. I am indeed scum.

i guess I'll VOTE: Madiusha
she was asking for it anyways

This post from Midway really reassures me. This is what I wanted to see, this is what I was waiting for. A call to vote on a widely scumread slot is gathering votes

from people that claimed to scumread the slot

before Votato's post. I'm pretty sure Midway is town right now.

Apogee stays after the Joqiza discussion and posts some more, Votato and Midway have some back and forth, and then DK appears to question me and this happens:

Spoiler:

*sigh* VOTE: Maduisha
please be cooperative.

DK had scumread me earlier and he is voting a wagon on me while it's growing. It is not a false stance. There you have it, town DkKoba.

Ydrasse interacts with me again:

Spoiler:

Hm, I guess I'm a "reverse Midway" slot for you in the sense that I do things you can agree with, but behavior behind it feels scummy. Well, fair enough, I can't address subjective reads so I understand you have to vote a slot that you don't think you can trust.

I insist my explanation of the wagon being useful doesn't detract from the usefulness of the wagon at all because of what I already said. The reasons to vote me and the reasons not to vote me exist regardless of anything I said. This means people will have reasons to join, leave it, or avoid it no matter how much I talk about it. Even refusing to communicate a read is communication, if you get what I mean. For example, Midway has joined the wagon a bit late even though he had been saying he scumreads me lightly for a couple of pages. The fact that he did not start the wagon himself at all is information. The fact that he did not counterwagon my wagon on him is also information. I am more inclined to believe Midway is town after seeing how he interacted with my wagon. Do you see what I mean? I don't think we should confuse lynch wagons for a reaction test: what I'm looking for is logic behind a push and the timing of said logic being reasonable within the slot's behavior until now, not just to see if people vote or not. And if I get policy lynched for being controversial, then we gather evidence from the way people joined a wagon, specially if they had a bigger scumread and still decided to capitalize on me.

As to why didn't I go after someone that isn't Midway immediately: I already replied Joqiza about it, but it's also in great part that I have a wagon on me and I want to see interactions with it.

okay, you have a wagon on you. good, we can see this. we can see interactions on it.

you have to understand how it makes you look though to just sit back and say. "yep, gonna wait for people to interact and vote on this instead of trying to actively find scum myself and instead let them come out of the woodwork." right? like. you can analyze the wagon on you all you want, more power to you, but you need to also be doing some of your own legwork in this situation. it's frustrating to not have any real push from you and instead spend most of the game focusing on a slot and then poof, nothing, no vote, just gonna hang out on the off chance someone does something that i can point out.

I will repeat myself again... I'm not going to push people to fill a town quota! I don't have a requirement to scumread people immediately after the slot I thought was scummy towntells a bit. Just because I don't have anything going against anyone currently doesn't mean I'm not trying to find scum. I'm getting tired of "if you're not pursuing a slot then you are scummy" logic. Then why don't you go after Clemency? He posted afk shit, pushed DK, backtracked and townread him and called it a day and hasn't come back ever since. Ahh, because not pushing anyone is actually not AI and you just want people to trust my wagon or...?

Speaking about contributions, you have a relatively small post count, so I'm guessing you have a lot of thoughts that haven't made it to posts, yes? Can you give a read list or do you not have a fleshed out one yet? If okay if you don't, but I want to see where you're at.

why are you getting so defensive right now, and trying to turn attention onto someone else? i'm focusing on you right now, not clemency. as i've said before i thought throughout the game your tone and posts have sounded relatively scripted and it's not gotten any better.

i've already made as much clear about who i find most suspicious: you. and enomis, given the fact i was going after him earlier. i am voting you and have been as you have been my biggest scumread and you've done little to change that.

Calls me defensive, calls me scripted, but only gives me her scumreads when I asked her for her full reads. I try again in post 496 and she replied to me in 502 but does not provide them. I will not get hung up on the fact that she ignored me so blatantly and say she doesn't give them because she doesn't have them, however I feel weird about being pushed for lack of reads and then behave like this. Could be testing if I bite and ask a third time, not sure. Not townreading this interaction, but the rest of her post history feels coherent so it still doesn't waver my position on her slot, still a townlean.

The next few movements from the wagon are pretty interesting:

Spoiler:

actually ill UNVOTE: as a courtesy. Vote goes back tomorrow night if you havent convinced me.

Yeah most of those reads are so wishy washy that they hardly count. You aren't doing much to analyze what people said and come to conclusions. And my unvote wasn't intended to reduce pressure from the wagon, just stress from the possibility of a lol hammer. VOTE: maduisha

Votato unvotes to avoid a lolhammer, but DK and I tell him to not do that and he comes back and revotes me without hesitation. I wanted to see if he came with more reasons to not revote, but I also wanted to be at L-1 for a while more still because there were more reactions I wanted to see. Then DK questions Votato about his confidence in revoting and he disappears. The unvote confuses me profusely, but I like that he revoted because we hadn't seen all reactions from the L-1 wagon and unvoting there would ruin it.

Then Enomis comes and says he doesn't find me scummy and does not move his vote from DK. The DK vote was a pressure vote to make them answer his questions, but he parked it there regardless. He stated before that he would prefer a Clemency lynch:

Spoiler:

3) I am perfectly ok with lynching clemency today. Sorry bro, but I wouldn't want you around in Lylo if you are town, I think it would be a disaster.

But he does not take the step to create the wagon again, which I find interesting. He is not joining the ongoing one with intent to hammer, he is not removing his pressure vote, he is also not voting on his preferred lynch slot. I deem this as scummy (sorry, Enomis). And the claim that I am not scummy feels a bit weak in the sense that he did not have a strong opinion about myself, so this sudden town lead in 526 is cheap to do and very feasible for scum, so I read his stance towards my wagon to be NAI and coupled with his inaction regardless his preferred lynch, this does not look good for Enomis. He claimed to be tired and busy until today, so I'm going to wait to see what else does he have to say, but not townreading any of this.

And now, everyone! The wagon deflation. It has many interesting portions as well, so I'm sorry to make this so long, but I think it's worthwhile:

Midway unvote:

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: Madiusha
rereading. scared of hammer maybe will vote again

Claims to be scared of hammer, means he is uncertain that I'm truly scum. But I hadn't showed up for a long while because I left frustrated some pages ago. Why did Midway change his mind? Was he waiting for someone's response and it never arrived?

Spoiler:

you're not rereading. you're not scared of hammer. you're probably not going to revote. stop pretending.

you're not rereading. you're not scared of hammer. you're probably not going to revote. stop pretending.

you are 1/3 correct
I won't revote
Don't like votato even more especially the backtrack

Midway reveals he has changed his mind on my slot and that he won't revote. I think when he said he was going to revote, he was baiting a reaction that never came and is now onto Votato for doing that vote-unvote-revote, then switch into Apogee in 544, right after DkKoba removes his vote from me into Apogee as well.

I think Midway has a point here:

Spoiler:

@votato Stop trying to say that I'm hedging. In my analysis of Apogee, I agreed that his early posts were scummy, but I concluded that his explanation made sense which lead to my townread. Stop saying things when they just aren't true( aka bad logic).
Again, that is terrible logic saying that scum you would lead town apathy set it because there was no apathy in the first place. I bet if you asked people if the game was particularly slow before you came, they would say no. There is a natural ebb and flow to activity in the games, so stop trying to say that you made it go up.
Random votes are definitely more scum motivated than town motivated. It seems like you were just randomly picking people to start a wagon on, and occasionally people would agree with you (the Madiusha wagon).
ha, you also tried to defend yourself by saying you weren't voting apogee but you are.

pedit: another scummy post from votato. Previously, you were pretty eager to lynch {apogee, me, madiusha} and now you say there's too much time left

Votato

forgot

he was voting Apogee. He admits it himself in 587. I read this as:
a) His Apogee vote was not genuine because he freaking talked like he was still on my wagon.
b) Right after this fail saying "I'm still on Maduisha, I'm consistent", he

claims that the Maduisha wagon is useless and everyone should get off

in the same post in which he admits his mistake. So, he wants you to believe he is consistent because he is voting me. Then he remembers he is not voting me and argues voting me is useless at this stage of D1.

I wish to stress point b), because I'm going to base my argument about Votato heavily on it. He seems to have gotten a little shaky when someone pointed he is not being consistent. Then he makes that "get off her" comment that has destroyed my mental image of Votato's slot completely. As I pointed before, I thought Votato was understanding of what I was trying to do when I said I wanted votes on me: I wanted reactions from people that scumread me and didn't scumread me before the wagon and see if they become opportunists, if they backtrack out of fear, or if they commit to their read. Yet now he is saying there's no more juice to draw from this wagon... what?

- People that scumread me before the wagon got big: DK, Joqiza, Midway, Ydrasse.
- People that voted me after the Votato counterwagon start: Votato (duh), DK, Midway.
- People that claim to scumread me and didn't vote me at all: Joqiza (instanced several times before and during the wagon, never voted me), Apogee (revealed in 661, I know Votato couldn't know when he made 587, but bear with me, this is important).

Votato doesn't think it's juicy that Joqiza ignored the wagon on his scumread. Votato is bailing the wagon after Enomis shows up and doesn't bite. Votato does not see value in seeing if Clemency scumreads me after the ruckus I made or not. He is acting

as if he knows

nothing else can happen with my wagon, which is what is going to turn Votato in my biggest scumread, sorry not sorry.

VOTE: Votato

As for the implications of his move: if Votato is scum, Enomis is town (he waited for his response). His likely scumpairs are: Joqiza (did not point out his inconsistency), Clemency (did not show interest in waiting for him to show up, which denotes prior knowledge of what his move would be), Apogee.

Now, why Apogee? I said before that Votato can't know Apogee scumreads me because he revealed it later, right? Well, I chalk it up to Apogees move in this situation more than Votato's. He explains why he scumreads me in 730 and it explains why didn't he intent to hammer: he doesn't want me as D1 lynch because I'm his weaker scumread. I buy this stance, so I want to keep Apogee as my townlean still but with a FoS on him (yes, I know how fence sitting this looks) because this post could be fabricated to explain why didn't he pressure me when the iron was hot. In other words, I think he has the potential to be Votato's partner, but for now I'm seeing Clemency and Joqiza to be more likely.

TL;DR: Votato is scum.

[Maduisha]

Sorry for the megapost, I know they are exhausting to read, but I think you can see my thought process along with it, which is what matters here.

[Maduisha]

Little to no backing for my reads? I explained them several times now, one of them to you. I explained what I saw and why I saw it the best I can. I will not make up "more solid" reasons to make people think I'm onto something when I might not be. I try to be confident with my reads within a reasonable margin because otherwise people don't take you seriously, but at the same time I'm constantly trying to get some reality checks, like when I backtracked from Midway, because I was hung up on my own read being good, but then I realized that a dude that doesn't seem to realize posting unrelated stuff disrupts discussion is also very likely to be the same kind of person that makes a point that self-defeats. And a world in which Midway actually has this personality and I'm reading him wrong is a more probable world than Midway playing 4D chess, I acknowledged it and took a step back to considerate other slots.

About getting irritated in page 11: it's more that seeing scum mentality from town gets me frustrated than me getting impatient for Clemency to reread. Him not seeing anything wrong with what he's doing means he's going to be a liability if he's town, do you feel me?

And about why didn't I jump into a different wagon after dropping Midway's: As you might have already seen, I've been tunneling him mostly. My attention in his slot means I haven't watched others as carefully. The other player in my radar was Apogee, but he wasn't posting much at the moment, so I'm not going to suddenly case him without a more tangible vibe, even if I'm getting gut pings, because that's shitpushing and I can't expect him to defend in a reasonable manner if I have no argument, and I can't expect anyone to support me either for the same reason. I hope that makes sense.

My slot making for a good lynch is something I can get behind, though. If people start being unsure about me and they end up changing their minds and lynch someone else that happens to be town, it's very likely that the next lynch will be the slot they've been itching about (aka: me). If it's a matter of getting flipped earlier or later, I prefer the option that misdirects people the least. And any and all flips are informative because of association reads, so it wouldn't be a worthless flip if I know I'm a controversial slot to many of you.

Okay, I get that you don't want to make up reads that you don't have,just annoyed bcuz there's a lot of ppl saying that. Advocating for your own lynch if you are town is anti-town btw, like I've been there and I get it, but at least choose someone to thunderdome, don't just say "lynch me" when you don't even know who mafia is, it's extremely counterproductive.

I want to reply to this now. I am not advocating for my own lynch, I think I made that clear. I was encouraging a wagon on me because I thought the movements in/out of it could be informative and I'd say I'm damn right that they were. I brought up the possibility of my flip giving information because it's an undeniable outcome from flipping someone, but that doesn't mean it's my desired end result.

I want to make a point here, though: I was not trying to sacrifice there, but I have always thought that in situations in which there is wifom and paranoia about 2 slots that are closely related, offering oneself as lynch for the day is not a bad strategy because it narrows the process of elimination for town and it gives implications about the other slot post-lynch. What I'm saying is essentially that if my flip reveals substantial information about a different controversial slot, I will actually encourage a lynch there and not just a wagon. You might not like it, because you said it's anti-town and counterproductive, but I beg to disagree. You are underestimating association reads.

You remind me a lot of Lucky Luciano, a player from Newbie 1995 who I kept discussing about this back and forth, because he had the same position as you. I am very exhausted about the topic, so if you want I can quote his and my posts about it from that game or you can look for it yourself, but it is one of my core beliefs and I stand for it.

[Maduisha]

Going back to my Votato push, I am not only confident that he has been bullshitting, but I'm feeling that flipping Votato gives us confirmation about Enomis being town if Votato flips red for what I argued about before on Votato waiting to see if Enomis bites and then accepting the disappearance of my wagon without more interaction for it, so I think the Votato wagon is juicy for Enomis pushers as well.

I'm selling it hot, spots on the Votato train are 50% off today!

[Maduisha]

At least you could try to give a short explanation as to why or where I'm wrong instead of insulting me and promising stuff for later. I can play that game too, you know?

Meh. I don't even feel like lashing out to you. Resort to insults all you want.

[Maduisha]

"Maduisha was whining about a potential lolhammer"

When did I whine, what? This is untrue, could you at least not lie?

And the defense being that you're too busy with other games to be coherent within 2 pages is marvelous, I'll be printing it and hanging it on the wall in my office. No, I haven't built a case on you for voting me. If that were the reason, I would have voted Ydrasse when she accused me the first time. Or DK. Or the guy that keeps pointing the finger at me and never voted me for some reason.

Why do you think you stood out for me to vote you just because you voted me? What?

And saying the wagon is worthless when one player hasn't even seen the L-1 situation at all, and when a player that has been accusing me all game ignores it completely is telling. Of course it's worthless. To your wincon.

[Maduisha]

Honestly, between having to play with some people that are absent most of the time or fucking replace out when they have to read more than 5 pages, getting shitpushed, people acting like my posts are invisible, and now getting insulted, I'm done.

I took my time to analyze the situation and the person I voted insults me and reduces my argument to such bullshit.

I'll be playing Animal Crossing until someone that isn't this individual has legitimate reasons to call for me. Have fun with the game.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I've caught up. I'm happy that Quick is a lot more eager to interact with the game than Clemency, that's great. His interactions are pretty short, though, and a lot contain links to videos, so I don't know what to think about this slot yet. I like that he is pressuring Joqiza because he is one of my suspects for a Votato partner. Quick is also in my suspect list from 791, but I don't think he's pressuring Joqiza to try to pocket me, because I think he hasn't read my post based on the way he has been talking.

I see people are going down from the Votato train and I want to hammer my suspicions, so here I go. It'll be a shorter post because I think my last long post drove everyone away and maybe someone skimmed it. Not very smart on my part.

- Point 1: Votato is a liar.

Here are examples of Votato lying and then backtracking with a poor excuse for his lies when caught:

Lying about his positioning during my wagon's deflation:

Spoiler:

Hold up I fail to see why lynching me first gives more information that literally any other first lynch. Votato you seem really happy to jump around wagons.

its only partly about the info. im just confident that theres scum in that set of people, so we win by lynching there. the order is based on probabilities. Also, im not really hopping wagon to wagon am i? my first real vote was on maduisha. my vote is currently still on maduisha.

oh youre right. we got what we were gonna get out of the maduisha wagon at this stage. everyone should get off that wagon for now. i dont buy maduisha as town at all, but theres too much time left in d1 here to lynch yet.

Then Apogee points out that this is the case and he argues that it does not matter because the wagon is now worthless. I have already explained in my long post why the wagon wasn't worthless anymore, so I'm not gonna get there here but point out how the stance goes from "See? I am voting her and being coherent with my reads" to "Ah right, but forget I put weigh on my stance just a second ago, that doesn't matter anymore." I think this is pretty clearly scum forgetting the order of his actions and also trying to get his mistake to slide by lying. A lie that lets him cover the fact that we did not get reactions from some slots, but apparently that doesn't matter anymore.

Then comes his explanation for this phenomenon:

on forgetting i was voting apogee: im quite busy with a few other games, and might have bitten off a bit more than i can chew. i should have been more aware, true enough. but that goes for both scum!me and town!me. its really not AI. the maduisha wagon was pretty useless at that point, we got most of what we were gonna get unless we really pressed for the lynch. quicklynches are anti-town, especially day 1. i do still scumread you though. i havent backtracked there. moving my vote helps the game progress.

This post is scummy because he is playing with wifom to excuse his lack of coherence that he had tried to cover up in a different way when it happened. He has gone again saying the wagon was useless when I have pointed out already that Clemency hadn't showed up to react to L-1, and Joqiza had reacted by not pushing his scumread, yet he says the juice is over and it's upsetting me more the more he says it. He's trying to brush aside important information as if it didn't matter because he needs to cover up the fact that there was nothing fueling his vote on me or his vote on Apogee and he was caught lying about his thought process.

Lying about my position when I was at L-1:

Spoiler:

let me first take a moment to address my unvote and revote on maduisha. maduisha was whining about the potential for a lolhammer. i unvoted as a courtesy, not because my conviction had changed.

In order to excuse his strange change of vote, he makes up the fact that I "whined" about getting hammered and acts as if I ever expressed the need for an unvote to gather my thought together. I called him out on the lie and he posted this as a reply:

maduisha had early on in the L-1 talked about lolhammers, and was at that point saying that she wanted to at least get some final thoughts out before dying. i could have been reading into it too much because i had seen a number of lolhammers elsewhere recently. regardless, please view the unvote and revote on maduisha as NAI. it was a courtesy to ensure that she had enough time to post thoughts.

He says I mentioned lolhammers and apparently that's a reason to believe I was "whining about getting hammered", so I'm going to get the post in which I mention such a thing:

I just find it very exciting. I lolhammered on my first game and not even then did I get lynched. I want to see people selling me as scum.

I want to see who hops onto the wagon and why.

This is my only instance talking about lolhammers. I was talking about the fact that I have played 3 games and I've never been lynched, so getting pressured like this was new for me and I was finding it interesting. The mention of the lolhammer refers to the fact that I did such thing at the beginning of my very first game and not even after doing something so reckless did I get as much fire as I am getting in this game. I was making a comparision by mentioned something I did in a previous game. I was

not

whining about myself getting hammered at any point, so this illustrates why Votato is a liar that is trying to take my words out of context by taking for granted that people won't read back on these little things.

- Point 2: Accuses people of accusing him only through OMGUS, while that is untrue and he is OMGUSing people himself.

Votato claiming people that vote him have garbage reasons that consist of OMGUS:

Spoiler:

I refuse to answer you until you answer why you think im scum

enomis is voting for you is one reason. The other reason is because of that VC which I have based almost everything on.

does anyone else think these reasons are absolute garbage?

theyre about as garbage as the reasons people are voting me (OMGUSx2 and void)

Midway's case on Votato is in post 696.

My case on Votato is in post 791 which I mentioned earlier.

Merely by the existence of these cases, him reducing the arguments to "OMGUS" and "void" is clearly a way to disrespect and deflect. The deflect effort is futile because I am not forgetting your attempts to incriminate others by lying to come on top during discussions. You were caught. Accept you were caught. If you admitted to lying, maybe then I wouldn't be so concerned about you.

Votato OMGUSing, insulting and belittling others because they're accusing him:

Spoiler:

You're an idiot. Also, spoilers are a thing. Please use them. More to come later

4. you need to take a stand. have an opinion. now you've done that,

your opinion is just really bad

. but if youre town we will get there together.

4.what are your backup suspicions? lets get all our reads out on the table shall we? that way we can be held to account! show me that thought progression! tunneling is bad. especially when its

based on such poor logic

. but it kinda

makes me wanna townread you cuz youre cute

.

why is 180 towny?
enomis your hesitance to vote votato is making me think you are his scumbuddy

lynch this post...

I am committing to the lynch of this slot.

[Maduisha]

I said before and I'll say it again, but by the way Votato was satisfied with my wagon ending after Enomis showed up, I'm pretty convinced that if Votato is scum, Enomis is town. So I'd be happier lynching Votato for the associative read too.

[Maduisha]

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

[Maduisha]

I don't even think he tried to townslip because when I ISOd him I found a bunch of chaotic lines that I don't know how to interpret. How he tells Midway "I'm controlling the situation" and "you don't even know what I'm doing yet", it leaves me confused. If he was trying to bait townreads for himself, then I'm lost.

I saw your compilation post before, but his posts being confusing, short, and empty are a playstyle quirk. I'm interested in Quick dropping the act and stating motivations for the "mysterious" posts like saying the votecount when he arrived helped him solve the game already, but I haven't seen him lying and deflecting with insults like Votato has. I will agree that he seems fond of shitposting and that rubs me the wrong way because it equals to padding if he doesn't explain his actions. Especially because of the amount of posts he is making ever since he arrived.

[Maduisha]

I think Quick is a reaction-based kind of player instead of an analysis driven one and I think it's fine except that it sucks to separate him from a scum trying to post filler until he explains his intentions.

[Maduisha]

Yeah, that's the big problem. I don't mind players that post oneliners and a lot of post volume because that's still readable even if it takes more pages to sort less content, but when he tries to act mysterious I have a hard time trying to understand what's the purpose os his wording.

I said I was going to control the wagons and I am totally doing that rn. Plus, I don't think you really get what I am saying half the time.

Like, when he says this I can't imagine he is trying to look relatable to anyone if he's basically saying "you can't read my intentions", lol. I don't think it's scummy, but I can't understand the motivation behind it.

[Maduisha]

Anyway, I want pressure on Joqiza and Votato, not Quick.

If Quick comes back when I'm around I would like to talk to him about this, though, because I don't see how this behavior is of benefit to anyone.

[Maduisha]

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

He voted enomis

Yeah, but that happened in 790. I meant when he finished sorting Apogee in 393 after talking to him for a while. He was already scumreading other slots, and he had already said before that that he thought I was scummy, yet he decided not to vote me at all.

[Maduisha]

Maduisha
Tone feels incredibly stilted from page 1, never improves, literally just read post #299 “Anyway, Ydrasse, I welcome inquiries.” feel bad pushing that because there’s some evidence of language barrier “or at least achieve not to frustrate you guys.” More importantly: reads with little to no backing, I already pointed out that she has three townreads (or “townleans”) by page 3 of the game, super questionable. Tone improved when I pushed them, had a sort of quiet defensiveness. Then got worse again, post #253 reads super theatrical though like it’s 11 pages, game isn’t that bad yet chill out, seems extremely insincere. Slot could make for a good lynch regardless of alignment tbh if town they’re gonna get mishammered at some point and I don’t think they’re PR. Post #306 is such garbage, like you’re expressing doubts about your midway push but you’re constantly doubling down on them why not flip to another slot when you’re not getting anything out of this one push. Analysis:

scum read

I mean, imagine posting this thing and then not voting me after you finish sorting your main scumread.

[Maduisha]

I explained why Votato is scum, he has been lying and deflecting with insults. I think that's why more scummy than making a political read, and I would like to interact with Joqiza but ye, not townreading that slot at all after I realized he's in Votato's scum partner possibilities within my analysis.

If more people agree I can settle with a Joqiza flip, but I want Votato because it also cleans your slot through association read, as I explained before.

[Maduisha]

I also replied to him last time and he ignored my post, but I'm not going to read that as AI because virtually everyone has done that to me during this game, lol.

I'm starting to believe it's funny to see me get annoyed like this and that's why it keeps happening with different people.

[Maduisha]

I explained why Votato is scum, he has been lying and deflecting with insults. I think that's why more scummy than making a political read, and I would like to interact with Joqiza but ye, not townreading that slot at all after I realized he's in Votato's scum partner possibilities within my analysis.

If more people agree I can settle with a Joqiza flip, but I want Votato because it also cleans your slot through association read, as I explained before.

Anyway, I think you should stop betting on association reads day 1. Usually, town don't manage to lynch scum day 1.

Association reads only really come in handy when there is a flipped scum.

So you are trying to say is that I'm getting too cocky and I shouldn't put all my bets on Votato being more valuable because of association read...

I guess I should admit I could be wrong, but man, what kind of town lies like that for the sake of winning a discussion? I might be getting horribly tunneled on Votato here, but lies don't benefit town unless there's a clever gambit involved.

I'm gonna pressure Joqiza to answer me when he comes back, but for now my vote stays parked on Votato because he is still my preferred lynch. It's not just the added information with his flip, but that I'm very convinced there was no town motivation in the things he did after people started to show not to be afraid to push him.

[Maduisha]

I explained why Votato is scum, he has been lying and deflecting with insults. I think that's why more scummy than making a political read, and I would like to interact with Joqiza but ye, not townreading that slot at all after I realized he's in Votato's scum partner possibilities within my analysis.

If more people agree I can settle with a Joqiza flip, but I want Votato because it also cleans your slot through association read, as I explained before.

that's a pretty bad misrepresentation. I've already responded to everything you said, so I'm not gonna do it again.

You lied. Twice. Admit that you did so and explain why, and maybe I won't be so stuck on something that makes no sense to me...? Or keep ignoring me, I guess. Could work in some universe.

[Maduisha]

I agree that he is being confusing, but I wouldn't say he is non-commital. Here, I found this:

I've already said that I read votato and Dk as Scum. Noteworthy is I said this before Dk

magically

changed their stance on votato with zero progression. And I already pointed out that votato's progression on Dk is terrible as well which votato just says to me, "good point" and that's about all the response they had on that.

He has you and Votato as scumreads. He said progression of interactions between you two is bad or does not exist. While I don't agree and I think he doesn't understand that you like voting people to squeeze words out of them and is reading too much into your Votato vote, I don't think he's fencesitting. Unless I misunderstand what fencesitting means. He is not saying "these people might be scum but I'm not sure" or some weak thing he can easily backtrack from, he is dropping accusations based on things you might or might not agree with, but I don't see his posture as one aimed to change out of convenience.

[Maduisha]

Don't tell me to go read when I quoted both your responses in my previous accusation post, I have read them. They do not address why you lied. Or admit it. But they are blatant lies that you can't cover up anymore no matter how you keep saying they're not lies, so you have to resort to treating me in this fashion.

I truly cannot get anything else from you, can I? Sigh. I'll go do something more productive with my time, then.

The rest would do me a favor if they trust my read, especially the Enomis pushers since we can get confirmation for him from this lynch as well. Vote Votato. Votato for president.

[Maduisha]

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

Not entirely sure what you're talking about tbh, I've only voted 2 people this game, Apogee and enomis, in both cases to start a wagon on them. There was a period of time where I unvoted Apogee and wasn't voting anyone cuz I was thinking through Apogee's response, I wasn't even thinking about starting a wagon on anyone at that point until I'd thought things through. I don't really understand what the obsession here is with having a vote on a player at all times, I don't find it productive at all, I'm not trying to use my vote to signal my level of scumread i'm trying to use it as a weapon to get someone lynched

I am saying that you voted Apogee, argued with him and ended up unvoting, but before voting Apogee you said you scumread me. You vote Apogee in 376, when my wagon (on your so claimed second scumread!!) already existed from Ydrasse's vote in parked on me in 284 and Votato's vote in 337. When you unvote Apogee in 393, my wagon is still fresh with 2 votes and it even gets more traction with 427 which is Midway's vote.

Your second preferred lynch slot is getting a thick wagon and you decide not to interact? I'm not saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times, but please tell me how do you scumread me for basically all of D1 and then have no interest in pushing me when others agree that I'm scummy. Especially after you've been satisfied by Apogee's response. Honestly, if Votato weren't a liar and an emotional manipulator, I would want your head before his because you are making no sense here and you are deflecting by calling it an obsession. I call it coherence.

[Maduisha]

thats also L-1 on enomis if it wasnt obvious.

Can you stop lying for one minute? Do you really think people can't count? I see what you are doing, you want to manipulate others with your lies to change their perception of the situation, but it doesn't work in forum games as easily as it would in a chat mafia game, I'm sorry, mister president.

[Maduisha]

Tracker on Dk pls.

Are you fishing for PR or softing that you know there's a tracker? What? What is your plan, you're giving me a headache.

[Maduisha]

VOTE: votato

You said you would rather hammer than join a wagon, so can you explain this mindset shift you've had just now?

[Maduisha]

I see Enomis has 3 votes but after rereading everything I see nothing against him other than being afk a fair bit and people claiming he has sort of static reads, yet he scumread Joqiza with me until he talked him out of it, so I actually think he is playing on the same page as me and not really as static as people claim him to be. I won't hammer Enomis if he gets to L-1, I will only settle with Votato or Joqiza lynch for today. If people don't feel comfy flipping Votato D1 but feel better in joining me in my Joqiza hunting quest, I will gladly join that wagon as well.

Feel free to bully me but I think that's the best direction to take.

[Maduisha]

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

Not entirely sure what you're talking about tbh, I've only voted 2 people this game, Apogee and enomis, in both cases to start a wagon on them. There was a period of time where I unvoted Apogee and wasn't voting anyone cuz I was thinking through Apogee's response, I wasn't even thinking about starting a wagon on anyone at that point until I'd thought things through. I don't really understand what the obsession here is with having a vote on a player at all times, I don't find it productive at all, I'm not trying to use my vote to signal my level of scumread i'm trying to use it as a weapon to get someone lynched

I am saying that you voted Apogee, argued with him and ended up unvoting, but before voting Apogee you said you scumread me. You vote Apogee in 376, when my wagon (on your so claimed second scumread!!) already existed from Ydrasse's vote in parked on me in 284 and Votato's vote in 337. When you unvote Apogee in 393, my wagon is still fresh with 2 votes and it even gets more traction with 427 which is Midway's vote.

Your second preferred lynch slot is getting a thick wagon and you decide not to interact? I'm not saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times, but please tell me how do you scumread me for basically all of D1 and then have no interest in pushing me when others agree that I'm scummy. Especially after you've been satisfied by Apogee's response. Honestly, if Votato weren't a liar and an emotional manipulator, I would want your head before his because you are making no sense here and you are deflecting by calling it an obsession. I call it coherence.

i'm just going to respond to this because this is a really weird post, like first of all i don't even recall perfectly but why would the exact mechanical placement of my vote matter. like it feels like you think that at all times i have to be placing my vote on the person i SR the most, and you're trying to catch me in some kind of inconsistency there. i've already explained i think but i just voted apogee because no one was voting him and i wanted him to take my push seriously so i could get a better feel for his slot, then i voted enomis later because i wanted him lynched. i get you guys are super anal about voting but i just wasnt putting that much thought into it. also i dont understand your thought process here, like if i am scum to your town why would i not want to place a vote on your THICC wagon lol. honestly i don't think it's even good that you were run up to L-1 because you softclaimed villager so if ur town u just narrowed down PRs for mafia but no one seems to understand this point.

anyway, why would you think that me not voting you there would be alignment indicative, like what was going through your head that started with "he didn't vote me" and ended with "therefore he is mafia," i want to understand

Sounds to me like your scumread on me was fake political read, because I can't explain you not interacting with my wagon as town or scum if you actually scumread me at all. Who benefits from posting fake reads? Mafia, only mafia. What is so hard to see?

[Maduisha]

I've caught up, guys. I've read the cases against Quick and I'm not buying. I had him into consideration as Votato's partner based on Votato's behavior, but Quick's play and situation rules him out as Votato's partner because I don't think scum wants to bus his partner this early in the game into a mutual L-1 situation. So, I won't be hammering Quick because I'm adamant that Votato is scum, so don't worry about that.

Quick claimed VT already, which also reinforces my impression that he is not scum, because I think scum rolefishes for counterclaims before dying to at least be useful to his partner if they're losing half the team in D1 already.

[Maduisha]

I'm scumreading Votato and Joqiza but nobody wants to hammer Votato, it seems. And Joqiza goes pressure free after doing scummy stuff for reasons I have yet to understand. I'm kinda frustrated.

[Maduisha]

I'll be here for around 30 minutes, then I will be gone for 2h because I have a meeting. Then I'll be back, no worries. So you can fire me questions or whatever when I'm gone those 2h because I will answer when I'm back.

[Maduisha]

I also have read DK say we need to look for motivations behind actions and not just say "this is scummy", but I have a hard time seeing someone lie to have the upper hand in discussions 3 times and think it has some town motivation behind...

Correct me if I'm wrong and there's some usefulness in those lies for town, but I can't see it. Purposely misleading others during discussion sounds as scum motivated as it gets.

[Maduisha]

Okay, I'm done with my meeting, so I'm back here. I see nobody showed up, so I'm going to use this time to talk about the current wagons to make people see why am I not hammering Quick aside from what I already said.

[Maduisha]

does he still only have 1 vote?

so you read another game in entirety but you arent willing to flip back 3 pages to check votes and VC? quick is currently at 3 votes.

Oh, I am actually in serious danger of getting lynched.

Well, I am VT. GLHF.

First of all I think people have glossed over how important this claim is. The fact that Quick has not claimed a PR does not mean he is not scum (I am very aware of the power of claiming VT to throw people off because my partner did it in my last scum game and it earned us a mislynch), but makes it a lot more probable that he is, indeed, town. The optimal play for scum is still to claim PR if they're caught D1 because if they don't achieve to sway town with their claim in some way, scum is losing

half of their team

during the first day which is a fatal blow that will most likely lead to defeat, so claiming PR at least gives them a better shot by making another PR counter claim and getting themselves a surefire night kill. Quick has not capitalized on this chance at all, so I'm gonna say that's towny. But to address the concerns of people thinking he might still be scum claiming VT for the reason I stated before, I'm gonna assume this is scum!Quick for the following analysis on the current 4/4 situation:

If Quick is scum, his partner is not actively bussing him. The reason for that belief is the rolefishing strat being the optimal play when letting their partner die. If they're not fishing that means their partner has not given up on Quick yet and said partner is

outside the Quick wagon

. So if Quick is scum, the other scum is within: [Midwaybear, Enomis, Joqiza] (+ Myself but I'm not counting myself or Quick for obvious reasons, lol). From these 3 slots, I have town-locked Midway (yes, Votato, people townread Midway because of his attitude!!!! Stop trying to discredit him), and I think Enomis is town because Votato waited for his reaction during my wagon + Enomis has been very inactive and when he showed up to talk about his inactivity, he said he doesn't care about the game enough to invest himself. I townread this disinterest because I think scum is fueled by the motivation of getting taken seriously when accusing or getting townread when getting accused and he is doing nothing to help any of those conditions to make himself look town. That leaves us with Joqiza, whom I scumread.

What's my point here? Well, under the assumption that scum!Quick's partner still believes he can make it out alive and is not bussing him for towncred and not telling him to rolefish, they're doing something else. They're either voting Votato or having a vanity vote (hi, Joqiza!). So if you guys are determined to ignore me and lynch Quick and he flips scum, that's the pool of people I'd re-evaluate, but I'm having a hard time seeing any of those being scum except Joqiza, but my Joqiza scumread is partially tied to my Votato scumread so I'm not gonna hammer Quick under the basis that Joqiza is scum.

[Maduisha]

My second analysis on the current wagon situation:

the two people at L-1 are not in equal conditions.

Yes, they're not. My argument for this point is that:

- Joqiza has given intent to hammer in 24h

for Quick only

, because he has specifically stated that he is not hammering Votato in 1748.

- Midway has declared intent to hammer Quick as well. He clearly wants Votato lynched too because he has spent the last few days insisting people to vote Votato, but

his vote is already on Votato and thus cannot hammer.

Which leads me to point out what I did. The only player out of the two in real pressure to do anything is Quick because nobody has stated intent to hammer Votato. For scum!Votato, this L-1 means absolutely nothing because there are 2 hammer calls on the other party and 0 for himself. He even said it himself in post 1596, so he is well aware that he is not the D1 lynch. Votato is not under pressure, friends.

And now I'm gonna call the glaring contradiction in this position of no pressure: Votato is making "last words" posts in which he is asking people to watch other players if he gets lynched, as well as asking Joqiza (yes, the person that said "I'm not hammering Votato") to give him time to make some final posts before dying. If he

knows

he is not going down because of what I already explained, then why is he making these posts? I call fake positioning. He knows he is not in danger, he is trying to appeal to the emotions to make it seem like he believes he can be lynched. The posts in which he did the things I just said are here for anyone to read:

Fake "if I get lynched remember this" posts:

Spoiler:

be careful for bs stuff because it could be joqiza+votato

if it were the two of us joqiza would have hammered. he already stated that hes pretty sure that its quick and has given plenty of reason to vote quick. if he lynches me, take a close look at joq and definitely lynch quick.

REMEMBER THIS POST IF I GET LYNCHED

knightmare threw the game because he was so sure i was scum. he refused to reevaluate. sounds like what youre doing.

well one of you could say you changed your mind, vote me and then quick could hammer. its not a good look for you, but it would mostly implicate quick and people would still be on enomis and maduisha. its unlikely, but its possible.

And my favorite, Votato appealing to the one person that has stated to not be going to hammer him specifically, asking to give him time to say something, as if he were in real pressure when this is all fabricated:

Spoiler:

@joqiza anything about Quick's play remind u of shady's scumplay

snap reads. analysis of a mislynch. yeah.

but I give 24hr to read. I log off for tn

if you do decide to hammer me tomorrow, please give me an opportunity to say a few things first.

This last example coupled with post 1766 is giving me the feeling that Votato is tiptoeing on purpose just in case one of the towns in Quick's wagon changes their mind and gives intent to hammer him, he wants to both soft VT by implying he "is in danger of getting hammered" and soft PR by asking people to wait before hammer, thus creating the perfect wifom atmosphere to never be hammered D1.

These are my thoughts on the current wagon, feel free to tear them apart, but this is what I'm seeing.

[Maduisha]

When I say he did not rolefish I mean with his claim. He didn't claim PR to weed the true PRs out, he claimed VT.

I also found weird the ways he mentioned masons and trackers before, but his claim wasn't an attempt to rolefish at all.

[Maduisha]

That still doesn't mean claiming PR is still the best strat for a dying scum getting bussed D1, since a good read will always be worse than being certain.

Do you think he's both claiming VT and getting bussed? I think he is clinging to life if he is scum. I don't think this is the case.

[Maduisha]

I butchered my phrasing there, lol.

*That still doesn't deny claiming PR is the best strat is what I meant.

[Maduisha]

Speaking of that guy, you know him, right? Does he usually play like this? Because I can't get out of my head that he said I'm scum but did not want to vote in the best opportunity he had to drive his point home, nor did he participate in the push on my slot at all.

He says I'm obsessed with vote placement and that you guys don't do stuff like that in the other forum, so I want to know. He keeps ignoring and deflecting, so I don't know what to do if nobody else agrees on my take on him.

[Maduisha]

It's very simple. Claiming when you're at L-1 is the usual. The fact that he is making last words posts without claiming can be interpreted as "he's not PR or he would've claimed already to free himself and lynch Quick instead", but doing these and later asking the hammer holder to give him more time implies the opposite at the same time. That means he is trying to be in position not to claim and keep himself safe from counter-claim (because it's risky for scum to just claim PR without knowing the setup since it's D1 unless they're accepting death), but also still be able to claim to make the actual PR out themselves if it comes to that.

He's made posts that come from two different stances on the same situation, if you get what I mean now.

[Maduisha]

Implying you can die when you're at L-1 while not claiming anything means you don't have proof of yourself being town with a PR claim-> VT soft.

Asking the hammer holder to give you time before death-> PR soft.

Unless what you want to say by then has nothing to do with roles and you're actually holding the hammer for something you could be saying right now. In which case, I don't understand.

[Maduisha]

Also Votato, can I ask you why did you ask for more time to the only person saying literally that they will not hammer you in specific? It makes no sense.

[Maduisha]

Hey guys, I think this claiming argument needs to stop.

Because it seems most likely joqiza will hammer quick.

Are you proposing to just wait until the 24h timer runs out and he hammers...?

Ugh, this game, this game, this game...

[Maduisha]

Outting reads in case you get hammered
/die are indicative of town motivation because you want town to know your point of view as a confirmed town if you die.

But he can out them right now! He's been at L-1 for a while now. Outting reads could've happened already.

Nothing is happening because Quick has 2 hammer calls and he has 0, so he knows he survives.

[Maduisha]

Hey guys, I think this claiming argument needs to stop.

Because it seems most likely joqiza will hammer quick.

Are you proposing to just wait until the 24h timer runs out and he hammers...?

Ugh, this game, this game, this game...

I don't want a situation where if votato is town, he claims because this back and forth argument.

You can scumhunt if you want. I just think scumhunting in this kind of environment where there are only 2 wagon options quite useless. Most of the time, it won't give you anything.

Just for the record: I'm not asking Votato to claim. I am saying his posts seem to be preparing him to claim either option in a safe way in the very, very unlikely scenario of someone changing their mind (someone that is not Joqiza).

[Maduisha]

Anyway, time is running out. I'll be here reading the thread, so call me if someone needs me, I'll be available for the next 4h.

Otherwise I'll be doing something else because nobody likes my case, it seems...

Rip Quick.

[Maduisha]

i think you skipped some pages or something maduisha. Midway backtracked on saying he'd hammer quick. Joq said he'd read before deciding who to hammer. Why would i give dying thoughts if im not about to die? I'm definitely not claiming unless intent is stated. That doesn't imply anything about whether I'm a pr. You should stop speculating cuz your giving ammo to scum. Although i could see this being a rolefishing ploy by scum!maduisha

Joqiza has been as ambiguous as he can be lately but he said very clearly that he will not hammer you at one point. Midway backtracked a bit recently but said he likes to hammer and proposed to hammer Quick many times before that instance, so I can totally see him getting swayed and voting Quick like he said he would many, many times. Meanwhile, nobody ever said they're willing to hammer you. At all. Nobody.

Also, how in heck am I rolefishing when I just literally said I don't want you to claim? I am accusing you of opportunistic positioning for either claim, not saying "claim or you're scum." I am also saying that the fact that you didn't and Quick did means you are confident of him dying instead of you (which he is at this pace).

[Maduisha]

and none of that points to me being scum.

I already explained why you're scum. This was just clarification of why the both L-1 wagons are not equal in pressure whatsoever.

Also, can you answer my question? Why did you ask Joqiza specifically for more time when he's the only person that said he won't hammer you? You could have appealed to anyone in Quick's wagon, yet you chose this person.

[Maduisha]

The... only person that said he won't do it is more likely to do it than those that said nothing...?

I can't follow, I'm sorry.

[Maduisha]

Okay. Then what's the reason to appeal to Joqiza instead of appealing to DK who is the most likely player to vary in their decision about this?

[Maduisha]

Anyway, time is running out. I'll be here reading the thread, so call me if someone needs me, I'll be available for the next 4h.

Otherwise I'll be doing something else because nobody likes my case, it seems...

Rip Quick.

u seem way too sure that quick is town. Why?

I already explained. He claimed VT instead of claiming a PR to make the actual ones come out. And I also think Votato is scum, so I doubt very much those two are partners.

I disliked when he tried to act mysterious about what he was doing, but I also don't think those posts come from scum trying to be townread at all.

[Maduisha]

Anyway, time is running out. I'll be here reading the thread, so call me if someone needs me, I'll be available for the next 4h.

Otherwise I'll be doing something else because nobody likes my case, it seems...

Rip Quick.

u seem way too sure that quick is town. Why?

I already explained. He claimed VT instead of claiming a PR to make the actual ones come out. And I also think Votato is scum, so I doubt very much those two are partners.

I disliked when he tried to act mysterious about what he was doing, but I also don't think those posts come from scum trying to be townread at all.

Ah, you are here.

Please ask me stuff because I will feel uncomfortable if you don't.

I want to ask you the meaning of this post:

I said I was going to control the wagons and I am totally doing that rn. Plus, I don't think you really get what I am saying half the time.

Like... what effect did you think it would have on Midway when he was scumreading you? It honestly puzzles me.

[Maduisha]

What do you make of me outing midway as VT?

When did you out Midway as VT...? He never admitted to be anything, if I recall correctly.

[Maduisha]

I am trying to understand the motivation of that post and others you made in the same vein and I just can't, so not caring fits more than there being an agenda behind it I guess...

[Maduisha]

Do you agree with anything I said in 1857 and 1858?

[Maduisha]

I see. Do you have any questions for me? I have to go in 30 minutes, so please tell me if you do.

[Maduisha]

I see. Do you have any questions for me? I have to go in 30 minutes, so please tell me if you do.

What is your read on Dk? If it is that they are Town, make that case pls.

Okay. Yes, he is town for me. The reason for that would be the way he has pressured and voted most of the current players ever since the game started. That aggressive playstyle calls for attention in one's slot and that's the last thing scum wants, since attention in the main thread often translates to town PRs using their night actions on said slots to make sure they are not power-wolfing (that term being, acting as town leader when you're scum).

My view of DK got reinforced by two things that happened. The first one would be when he got into an argument with Enomis early on and they both got very frustrated at each other, each in their own way. I read that interaction as town vs town because they both seemed to display genuine frustration to me. The second thing would be when Votato created the counter wagon on me when I was pushing Midway. When he did that, both Midway and DK voted me without hesitation. That helped me clear both of them, because they had both said they scumread me before and just were coherent with their vote without caring about appearances.

That's enough for me to tell this guy isn't faking anything.

[Maduisha]

Guy or girl. I'm sorry, I always forget about their pronoun preference because I suck.

[Maduisha]

I see. Do you have any questions for me? I have to go in 30 minutes, so please tell me if you do.

What is your read on Dk? If it is that they are Town, make that case pls.

Okay. Yes, he is town for me. The reason for that would be the way he has pressured and voted most of the current players ever since the game started. That aggressive playstyle calls for attention in one's slot and that's the last thing scum wants, since attention in the main thread often translates to town PRs using their night actions on said slots to make sure they are not power-wolfing (that term being, acting as town leader when you're scum).

My view of DK got reinforced by two things that happened. The first one would be when he got into an argument with Enomis early on and they both got very frustrated at each other, each in their own way. I read that interaction as town vs town because they both seemed to display genuine frustration to me. The second thing would be when Votato created the counter wagon on me when I was pushing Midway. When he did that, both Midway and DK voted me without hesitation. That helped me clear both of them, because they had both said they scumread me before and just were coherent with their vote without caring about appearances.

That's enough for me to tell this guy isn't faking anything.

1. Dk's emotions seem forced. For example, I don't buy his push on me at all and I don't think he actually thinks I am Scum.
2. Can you show me a couple VCs where this stuff happened? I might poke around what was going on at the time.

1. Well, I read it as towny, so this is subjective, I agree.
2. This is the votecount I'm talking about:

Spoiler:

Official Vote Count 1.11

---

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Lynching

Maduisha

(4): Ydrasse, midwaybear, DkKoba, votato

midwaybear

(1): Apogee

DkKoba

(1): enomis

Not Voting

(3): Clemency, Maduisha, joqiza

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-05-15 10:45:00).

Mod notes:

• ...

[/area]

[Maduisha]

I've also been very aggressive, yet you scumread me. how do you reconcile the two?

I was thinking you were towny too, I was pretty comforable about your slot when you explained to Midway the value of my own wagon to me didn't mean I was trying to get lynched.

But then you started doing scummy stuff like lying and insulting, so rip.

[Maduisha]

didn't votato vote before me and DK

Yeah, it went Ydrasse->Votato->You->DK, iirc? The point wasn't the fact that you guys voted, but the fact that you and DK said you scumread me earlier in the thread and went through with your suspicions with a vote when a wagon started to grow. That's why I'm confident about you two but not the other two.

Anyway, I have to go now, guys... I don't think I'll be around for the hammer because of my timezone, but hopefully the person who hammers understands my points and votes Votato and not Quick.

[Maduisha]

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

[Maduisha]

And now, I think we should evaluate and theorize about the NK. They killed Midway because he was widely townread, I think that's obvious. And I think Votato is the responsible. He was constantly saying Midway couldn't die because he was good for scum to have around, yet he killed Midway to protect himself with wifom because he said he would not die, so it looks like "he wouldn't say this if he was going to kill him" and make himself more believable.

[Maduisha]

I want to illustrate my point because I feel like people will see me with a tinfoil hat for seeing a scumpair this early instead of taking me seriously, so I will bring Joqiza's "progression" to the table so we can all discuss with material on the table:

Spoiler:

no i'm not hammering votato jfc

Here is when he made clear the fact that he was

not

hammering Votato. I called this out, so he will make some hedging to make it look like he is doubting himself and analyzing when he is clearly not going to hammer Votato. We know this because Votato was also very relaxed at L-1 with no signs of thinking he is going down thanks to there being 0 intent to hammer for himself and his partner being the "main" hammer holder.

yeah, we know you're a mafia goon.

why did you say mafia goon here? like why specify the role

Here we can spot how he is faking his ISO read of Votato to make it look like he is "considering" things. How do we know that? Well, look at the post he is replying to. Where have we seen this before? Ah yes, he is leeching off of Quick's ISO read and grabbing the post he quoted in [1936] to make it look like he is investigating too. Fake push, fake question, fake interest.

4. im not interested in convincing you. you've decided to tunnel me. thats fine, i dont need to convince you since youre gonna just confirmation bias everything i say. i just need to convince 6 townies. or really just 4 townies.

here u r referring to midwaybear and saying that bear is "conf biasing" you which implies he is town, but u say you "just need to convince 6 townies" like if bear is 1 townie and there are 6 other townies that's 7 townies and that only leaves you as scum ???

Here he continues to do the same. Fake push to make it look like he is considering.

eh i'm gonna wait for votato to respond to what i asked before i go into things too deeply

"Before I go into things too deeply" yeah, this is scummy. "I'm tunneling on the guy I already said I was not going to hammer by using other people's investigation! I should totally take a step back." Please.

Alright I kind of came into this thinking that quick vs votato might be TvT but I kind of FOS quick after this, like I'm just floored by how quickly he jumped onto the "scumslips" and how he basically wanted votato lynched before he could respond. I feel like anyone with any decent amount of experience should know that these sort of statements aren't really alignment indicative, both town and mafia do this kind of weird shit you see genuine certified scumslips very very rarely. and in fact it's funny because if you look in his iso one of the first posts he makes is this, so yah, he is aware.

I have only read about 8% of the game or less fwiw.

how can we take you seriously then? did you see a scumslip or something?

I pretty much never see Scum slips. I am pretty biased against them actually.

Now Votato is town and Quick is too! But he still gets to hammer a player he already said is town because he

magically

reached the conclusion that they're both town when there's no time to rearrange wagons and lynch someone else, and he knows everyone prefers a bad lynch to no lynch. Why hammer himself and get his hands dirty? Because if he leaves the hammer up to someone else, they might hammer our friend Votato and that's a big no-no, am I right?

anyway fellas i'm basically gonna hammer quick here in a bit i think my mind's pretty made up at this point. i went thru votato and I think he has some decent contributions today. I really like the push on maduisha starting 337, continuing in 478 and 487, kind of ending with 540 and 587. this push is a lot better and more thorough i feel like then what he was doing previously. now to be fair he did do this AFTER i pointed out why his earlier pushes were kind of weak, so he might've just adapted this game, but in any case he's certainly done more for us than quick has done. i feel like his responses to bear's case in 803 and 804 are decent too btw

And the conclusion of why Votato is town and a worse lynch than Quick is just bad. "I liked he pushed Maduisha so I'm gonna hammer the person that did not" yadda, yadda... if you wanted me pushed or lynched, why didn't you vote me

at all

during D1 while scumreading during the whole day, Joqiza? What kind of town strategy is this? You're not getting away with it for two days, if you start running away from my question you're claiming scum.

I think the fake hesitation is real and should be looked at closely during D2.

[Maduisha]

And now, I think we should evaluate and theorize about the NK. They killed Midway because he was widely townread, I think that's obvious. And I think Votato is the responsible. He was constantly saying Midway couldn't die because he was good for scum to have around, yet he killed Midway to protect himself with wifom because he said he would not die, so it looks like "he wouldn't say this if he was going to kill him" and make himself more believable.

"universally townread"

literally by whom.

By everyone that disagreed to push him with me when I voted him for being contradictory? I'm pretty sure I read other people read him as town with me after that but I honestly don't feel like looking for specific posts about this.

[Maduisha]

Alright, going to make the proposal of pressuring Joqiza together today to squeeze tells from him because nobody wanted to hear me out D1 and people don't seem to like the idea of lynching his partner Votato. Joqiza has done scummy shit that I already pointed out before over and over, and he got away with it for free because people were not feeling comfortable from jumping out of the Quick wagon and I think that was a big mistake, so let's get the ball rolling.

VOTE: Joqiza

Furthermore, his fake "consideration" to choose who he was voting was staged and clearly fake. He saw me accusing Votato of being fake with his petition for time and tried to patch it and make it look legit by faking an ISO read. I think it's clear why he hammered Quick regardless of his towntells: he did not want to bus his partner D1 because that's death sentence, but tried to play slightly indecisive so people would think he actually considered it and buy their bullshit distancing.

Imagine thinking that votato and I are a scumteam and I left my partner on L-1 for 24 HOURS. ON DAY 1 LOL I couldve hammered quick at any time and been done with it but I wanted to give him a chance. Somehow despite posting 366 times he didn't even read the game, i don't regret it and i made the optimal decision with the information i had to work with. quick/votato probably TvT anyway II'm guessing I didn't even have a shot at a correct hammer. maybe should have led a counterwagon but i wasn't liking quick's posts at EoD

Sorry pal, but I don't think sitting on the hammer for a day clears you or him. I already said it multiple times, nobody called intent to hammer on Votato whatsoever. He was in his scum chair sipping his scummy tea waiting for the Quick hammer, because nobody threatened him at all. If my theory is correct and you're his partner, he was even comfier. There's no reason to rush Quick's hammer if you can do some theater to look like you're legitimately considering options when you're actually going to hammer Quick in any scenario.

[Maduisha]

what "scummy shit" have I done btw Maduisha except not vote me when u were getting wagoned. For the record I checked back and on page 20 when you got taken to L-1 I LITERALLY WASN'T EVEN THERE. I don't get it if you're saying I should've voted you and not Apogee when I was pressuring Apogee, like I thought it more important at the time to try to get a reaction from Apogee, I've explained this a hundred times. At this point I am either 1. talking to a brick wall or 2. talking to someone engaging in bad faith

i'm not gonna bother responding to the "should've voted push" anymore it's dumb and irrelevant, I don't care if that gets me lynched, I truly cannot be assed to respond to that kind of read

I mean that after sorting Apogee, it makes no sense to claim to have scumreads and vote nobody. And "I literally wasn't there" is not an argument, you could've voted me when you unvoted instead of you know... unvoting...

Alright, if you decide to ignore the main scummy thing you did, then sure! You're not scummy! Wow guys, we cleared Joqiza!

[Maduisha]

also, theoretically: if joqiza is mafia, do you think there is a chance that votato is town at all and it's instead dkkoba? dkkoba's hardtunnel on quick was biased i think from the start but i'm unsure if it's just a very stubborn town player or a scum player playing super, super aggressively.

Well, I don't know how these two would work together as scum because it's my first time seeing either of them, but I'm townreading DK based on their attitude and consistency. So, if Joqiza's partner is not Votato (which I doubt), I would explore options other than his friend.

I think a good deal of people tunneled Quick here, so pushing DK based on that feels wrong? Quick just has a quirky playstyle that translates poorly when people are trying to read them, probably to protect his strong scum game or something when people use meta.

[Maduisha]

However, I'm not sure why we aren't focusing on votato right now. I'm all for pressuring joqiza if y'all think that it will produce useful reads, slips, tells, whatever, but pretty much all of you who've pressured him say that votato is his likely partner.

I'm all for a Votato wagon if it revives again. Joqiza/Votato are my preferred lynches today. I just felt like pressuring this guy for once wouldn't hurt. Votato was L-1 for a long while, after all. But if everyone wants to lynch Votato, I'm in.

[Maduisha]

Seriously does no one find this progression of events sus:

1. Maduisha: I think votato and joqiza are a team, so I'm going to vote joqiza
2. votato: I think Maduisha might be on to something, so I'm going to vote joqiza (?? LOL??)
3. Ydrasse: Maduisha and votato bring up good points, so I'm going to vote joqiza

votato why are you simply voting me without acknowledging that most of Maduisha's read is predicated on you being scum with me? And Ydrasse why did you simply sheep them without pointing out this contradiction?

1. I already explained why am I voting you instead of Votato. People didn't want to lynch Votato, so I'm going for my second scumread.
2. Your partner is busing you for towncred and you're bad at acting surprised.
3. There's no contradiction for Ydrasse to like my analysis, she can disagree with some points and still like the push.

[Maduisha]

maduisha, could you link some completed games?

I only have 3:

1987 - Vanilla townie
1992 - Mafia goon
1995 - Vanilla townie

[Maduisha]

I was not part of the Quick wagon. I never advocated for that wagon or for a votato wagon lol. I was ended up forced to hammer between those two thanks to midwaybear pushing votato and DkKoba, Ydrasse, and Apogee all SRing Quick. I didn't SR clemency once, of course I was hesitant. Regardless of whether I thought it was TvT or not, if I couldn't get a counterwagon going I would've hammered between them anyway just to avoid an NL.

Yeah you were "forced" to vote between two people you read as town because you didn't push your scumreads before end of the deadline and by then you could excuse it by "there's no time, we ought to lynch someone now."

If I'm shitpushing you and you're town, I will apologize by the end of the game, but really... this sounds like a poor excuse to scumread people outside the two wagons and get away with hammering one of them while taking no responsibility.

[Maduisha]

I'm honestly so done like I'm just gonna VOTE: Maduisha I truly do not care if this flips town I'm over it. Game is literally unplayable while she's alive all she does is tunnel me with complete garbage and refuse to re-evaluate it's the most stubborn play I've ever come across

I don't believe in OMGUS votes but I do like getting answers.

Could you at least be consistent?

[Maduisha]

I think it's also clear that Votato is sheeping Enomis to push Joqiza because he has no arguments to look like town scumhunting.

[Maduisha]

I'm going to try not to be extremely biased and also wait for content from Enomis and Apogee if they feel like bringing more to the table, but I'm not going to lie. My mind is pretty set on the two that are lying so blatantly being scum. There's no reason to lie to position yourself in an argument if you are town.

Joqiza: *OMGUS vote*
Also Joqiza: I'm not gonna vote Ydrasse because I don't believe in OMGUS votes.

????

[Maduisha]

I'm not saying he OMGUS'd Ydrasse to vote her in 2222, I'm saying he voted Ydrasse->OMGUS voted me in 2235->said he doesn't believe in OMGUS votes later on in 2277. I think I quoted it correctly in my last post from the previous page, he is making no sense.

[Maduisha]

The vote on you isn't an OMGUS vote. OMGUS is when you vote someone for no other reason than they voted you. I have plenty of good reasons to vote you

Friendly reminder that this is the fashion in which you voted me:

Spoiler:

I'm honestly so done like I'm just gonna VOTE: Maduisha I truly do not care if this flips town I'm over it. Game is literally unplayable while she's alive all she does is tunnel me with complete garbage and refuse to re-evaluate it's the most stubborn play I've ever come across

Does not sound to me like "good reasons" even if you have them, all I read there is you want me out of the game because I suck.

I think it's also clear that Votato is sheeping Enomis to push Joqiza because he has no arguments to look like town scumhunting.

are you even reading what I'm posting? You can't honestly think that

Yes, I read your posts and I still think you're latching onto anyone's reasoning to bus your partner for convenience here.

actually id appreciate fully articulated read lists from everyone, but in particular the lurkers: enomis, ydrasse, apogee, and maduisha.

Funny thing to call us lurkers, but okay buddy. I guess I should make posts with 1 sentence like you so I can have thousands in my postcount? Sigh.

Scum: Joqiza, Votato.
Town: Everyone else.

The end. If I were to be wrong, I'd re-evaluate maybe Apogee and Ydrasse because I'm less confident about those two, but still feel they're towny and I don't want any of them lynched today.

[Maduisha]

hmm i actually think midway's death implicates maduisha. it seems pretty clear that the kill was intended to make me look guilty. midway was tunneled on me 100%. But maduisha was too, and maduisha was far more cogent in her reasoning. if i were gonna kill someone who was tunneling me to take the pressure off, it woulda been her. scum trying to implicate me should also have killed her, because thats pretty obvious. yet midway died and maduisha is still alive. and maduisha has done nothing to develop or progress her reads. It could be really bad town play, but i think its more likely to come from scum.

1. You are assuming the NK played around you because potato.
2. Assuming scum wants to kill anyone who gets scumread by others instead of players most people trust makes no sense.
3. You say "I did nothing to develop my reads" yet I posted several lengthy posts that explained my thought process. But you are conveniently ignoring their existence here because you have no argument to call me scum.

I am honestly done replying to you because that last one really rubbed me the wrong way. If I'm wrong and you are town, then I have no words.

[Maduisha]

I think it's also clear that Votato is sheeping Enomis to push Joqiza because he has no arguments to look like town scumhunting.

are you even reading what I'm posting? You can't honestly think that

Yes, I read your posts and I still think you're latching onto anyone's reasoning to bus your partner for convenience here.

actually id appreciate fully articulated read lists from everyone, but in particular the lurkers: enomis, ydrasse, apogee, and maduisha.

Funny thing to call us lurkers, but okay buddy. I guess I should make posts with 1 sentence like you so I can have thousands in my postcount? Sigh.

Scum: Joqiza, Votato.
Town: Everyone else.

The end. If I were to be wrong, I'd re-evaluate maybe Apogee and Ydrasse because I'm less confident about those two, but still feel they're towny and I don't want any of them lynched today.

which of my reasons are sheeping? you're gonna have to do more work here to actually convince anyone of the sheeping accusation. why are you sure about Dk and enomis?

Your reasons for sheeping is bussing your partner for towncred as I already said, since you didn't want the gamestate to go back to people voting you like in D1.

I already explained several times why I think those two are town. Go check my ISO, press ctrl+F with their usernames and entertain yourself. Then come and convince the rest that my progression doesn't exist.

Like I said, I'm done. Say whatever you want. Have fun.

[Maduisha]

I'm not sure if post count is alignment indicative because Votato has many due to posting many oneliners vs posting longer posts like everyone else does. Anyway, this is what I draw from the content produced now:

Spoiler:

didnt you say you scumread joqiza? why shouldnt we be pushing the slot? my push is largely not based on the hammer.

are you saying maduisha and I are the scumpair? or do you mean enomis suddenly pivoted off me? actually if you mean enomis then you raise a pretty good point because im pretty sure hes said he townreads me now.

UNVOTE: . im starting to think that my solve ought to be maduisha and enomis.

enomis stands out to me there. he posts when the pressure is on him, but disappears whenever the pressure is on town (Dk, midway, quick, myself). I'm assuming Dk is town, but im also pretty confident. i think it does help to convince me that both maduisha and joqiza are town though.

This is a progression of Votato's reads just recently. Notice how:

- DK shows signs of trusting Joqiza = Votato asks them about it and changes his solve to me and Enomis. (Trying to sheep DK so they will won't include him in the solve)
- DK posts data and says they trust it = Votato says that both Joqiza and me are town now, even though he was pushing hard on me since D1 until just one minute ago (Maduisha and Enomis solve).

I think Votato has a clear pattern of wanting to sheep DK's reads or at least want to stay out of their radar by not contradicting them. It's like they're asking them "but it's okay to still scumread Joqiza, right?" right before the unvote. Honestly, I think Votato is afraid of taking a false step.

[Maduisha]

Also, I'm interested in a deeper analysis of Votato + Ydrasse when you have the time for it, Apogee. I find it kind of weird that she posted right after your reveal of scumreads but didn't react to the fact that she's in your solve, but we'll see. Maybe she didn't have time to write a post about it or maybe she's waiting until you flesh it out because it can be hard to address concerns without the full accusation on the table.

[Maduisha]

Sorry for not appearing at the end of the previous day and the beginning of this one, something came up and I've been pretty busy unfortunately. I think Ydrasse didn't come out with the guilty as soon as the thread opened because she wanted to see if Votato could be pressured or if we would catch Joqiza without her investigation result and earn herself another turn to investigate at night, but when people started piling votes on her she preferred to out the result which is understandable. I'm glad I wasn't actually shitpushing Joqiza because I tunneled pretty hard and the last time I did that I got a townie lynched and lost my last game.

As for who the parnter is... I still think it's Votato due to the reasons I gave before. Joqiza called me obsessed and other things to discredit me, but I think it's pretty likely that he wanted to look towny by getting upset and engaging with me like that so my whole theory would look like garbage if people townread him for his defense. I'm not gonna vote Votato yet because this turn it's 3 votes to lynch and I kinda want to see Enomis post before we put anyone at L-1.

[Maduisha]

I need other peoples takes on how likely DkKobas doctor claim is to really know what to make because it is certainly possible but I don’t really know for sure. Again, I haven’t felt DkKoba was scummy much of this game but I’m just a little worried by associations and PoE. After doing legwork it might become more clear

I think it looks legit because the rules say roleblocker impedes jailkeeper action, so probably doctor too?

Spoiler:

All Newbie games use the Natural Action Resolution system for determining Night action effects. Mafia Roleblocker action takes precedence over a Town Jailkeeper action should that apply.

Like, if they block DK and kill Ydrasse, it shouldn't matter that DK used the doctor action on Ydrasse, right? And claiming doctor without knowing if there's a real doctor that could counterclaim is too risky for mafia at this stage in which they have lost half the team, so they can't afford to lie. I'd say we can trust DK as confirmed town.

[Maduisha]

maduisha where are u

I live in Spain and you guys were posting at midnight for me.

This is freaking scum:

well my wifom didnt work. I'm just going to hardclaim here for real:

I am town doctor and I was roleblocked so scum know who I am 100%

First, let me say why if DKKoba is scum, he can claim doctor safetly.

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Since, we know that there is a cop 100%, we know that we are either in row A1 or row C1. A mafia

KNOWS WHICH SETUP WE ARE IN

based on if they are a mafia goon/mafia roleblocker.

-------------------
Now Let's investigate Mafia's action last night:

Put yourself in Mafia's shoe, you will know 2 informationL
1) Ydrasse is

100% cop

2) DkKoba wifom Doc (Maybe doc?)

In this situation there are 2 plays.
1) Kill Ydrasse while roleblocking Dkkoba.
This play doesn't freaking make sense. If DkKoba is wifoming, mafia literally give cop one more chance to investigate and out one more guilty/innocent. Super low probability play here.
2) Kill DkKoba/others while roleblocking Ydrasse.
This play makes alot of sense as scum. You block Ydrasse from getting any more results while trying to hunt the doctor if there is one. Super High probability play but didn't happen.

------------------
So now, we know that DkKoba can only really be doctor if the mafia is freaking stupid and did an action that has super high chance to backfire. And I am not buying that this situation will happen.

THUS DKKOBA IS SCUM.

---------------

Not going to hammer for now.

I really don't understand point 1... wouldn't roleblocking the doctor make the cop kill happen safely and thus there's no investigation? Killing Ydrasse sounds like the safe option because we know she actually is the cop and thus confirmed townie because she outed a guilty on someone that flipped red. Leaving her alive is bad news, while blocking the doctor and leaving them alive does not confirm that they are a doctor while still securing the cop is dead, right? Am I missing something?

now. I am NOT actually doc.
the "breadcrumb" post on d1 was moreso a fluke guess because I planned a potential strat like this based on quick being scum and knowing there was a potential cop. I wanted to be NK based on that.
now, why did I do this?

1. With cop death, I was 90% sure that there was no doc myself. By claiming doc I knew I would be mindfucking scum bc I was the only likely roleblock target here in the case of a roleblock-kill on ydrasse.
2. Mafia is informed about the setup. they know what roles arent there. Thus they know I am lying. Now. That is why I was so quickly suspicious about votato being so adamant about lack of doctor.
3. enomis if I was the docotor I am a very likely roleblock target. I am probably speaking from EM experience but your explaination is better than votato's "lol youre not doc".

I was attempting to get reactions with this claim knowing that safelty either scum knew the doc and had roleblocked + killed cop(which would be a pro play and joqiza could have 100% pulled that off) or we are in column C.

Point 2 is something I've been thinking about because Votato was saying he knew you were not doctor at the end of day 2 in 2492, but I don't know what to make out of it because if it comes from scum it's a fatal slip but he said your bait wasn't real so nonchalantly, which makes me think what was the purpose of the post at all regardless of alignment. If he is town, he's ruining your strat on purpose and if he's scum he's slipping that he knows the setup. Really playing against wincon no matter how you see it...

[Maduisha]

mm dk if you want apogee to be safe from any possibility of a lynch, you should make that case. I'm not totally sure who i TR more here, but i think maduisha is clear so itll be lylo with me enomis and apogee.

How did you progress from scumread to clear...? Your previous read of me as town is when DK used their data analysis to conclude post rate implies town alignment is more likely. You sheeped their reads and said "Joqiza and Maduisha are town" in this post:

enomis stands out to me there. he posts when the pressure is on him, but disappears whenever the pressure is on town (Dk, midway, quick, myself). I'm assuming Dk is town, but im also pretty confident. i think it does help to convince me that both maduisha and joqiza are town though.

The data was confirmed to not be completely trustable because Joqiza flipped scum, so don't tell me you TR me out of this instance. Could you tell me how you went from SR to TR on me?

[Maduisha]

Also note that Votato is talking about [Votato, Apogee, Enomis] lylo because, so he is assuming we lynch DK and that they'll flip town, and assuming I die for no reason (suddenly says I'm "clear" even though they've scumread me all game and suddenly there's a clear status with no progression...?).

[Maduisha]

Also...

VOTE: Votato

Now that Enomis has caught up and Apogee comes back tomorrow, we can get the ball rolling.

[Maduisha]

Ah, I think it makes more sense now... so, they had to roleblock Ydrasse if there was a chance for there to be a doctor and they didn't know who it was if they didn't trust DK to be the real one, and the fact that Ydrasse died means they roleblocked the real doctor or that they're sure there's no doctor...

[Maduisha]

Enomis, do you actually think DK's gambit comes from scum? I think the way they said they were waiting for you means they were preparing to out the fact that they were actually not a doctor and that would mean they're not backtracking because you "caught" them lying. I think it was a legit reaction test.

[Maduisha]

Votato, you said I suffer from confirmation bias but I asked you what your progression was and you said it doesn't matter. It looks like deflection. I think it's not unreasonable to want to know how does one go from scumread to townread and you are only giving vague explanations. And what is IC? It better not be one of your insults again, because I'm getting tired.

[Maduisha]

Also, Apogee... my PoE would be flipping Votato>you if Votato flips town but I don't think there's a chance in hell that happens anymore. I know it sucks to tell you that you're on the chopping block, but Enomis' lack of interest in the game combined with the emotion bursts vs DK sound towny, so that is my solve. I can agree not to hammer until you're back, so I'll unvote if more people pile on Votato, but I'm pretty certain we got the answer today.

You do have a point that Enomis only showed up after gathering a vote, though... but it could be coincidence based on timezone activity, I'm not sure.

[Maduisha]

And if Votato is accusing DK of rolefishing by claiming doctor, then that's just ridiculous. Claiming a PR as scum to out a real PR when you're the last scum standing is suicide, I don't understand where he's going with that accusation but it makes no sense.

[Maduisha]

And if Votato is accusing DK of rolefishing by claiming doctor, then that's just ridiculous. Claiming a PR as scum to out a real PR when you're the last scum standing is suicide, I don't understand where he's going with that accusation but it makes no sense.

except it isnt suicide because he retracted. and now you think the whole think was a town ploy... clearly it isnt suicide.

I mean that it is suicide if it were rolefishing like you are saying, because if the real doctor appears, the scum is exposed. Even if they retract by this point, most people wouldn't be happy about outing the real doctor and they'd likely get lynched.

By this I mean that I believe DK when they said they only claimed doctor because they were certain there was not a real one that would cc and so they could fish for reactions, not rolefish.

[Maduisha]

Votato, you said I suffer from confirmation bias but I asked you what your progression was and you said it doesn't matter. It looks like deflection. I think it's not unreasonable to want to know how does one go from scumread to townread and you are only giving vague explanations. And what is IC? It better not be one of your insults again, because I'm getting tired.

IC means innocent child. it means youre confirmed town. my progression was entirely based on Dk's posts around the claim and EoD yesterday. the progression is sudden, but its natural and articulated. also, i really want you to come up with a good punishment for yourself if i flip town.

I think I am misunderstanding you, or you are misunderstanding me. I am calling your current read on me to be fake because there's no progression to call me "confirmed town", especially not when you've been scumreading me the whole game and your only instance to consider me town was under the false premise that the statistic data meant something that made you townread people, but Joqiza was there and he flipped scum.

I was not asking about your progression on DK, I know it's based on the doctor claim. I think it's a filmsy scumread, but it's valid nonetheless. It's your change from scumread to confirmed town on me which is confusing me.

And no, I will not enter your game of "how much you want to bet I flip town" you played with Midway to discourage him. Even if you were to flip town, you're acting scummy. Townies that act scummy end up lynched even if just to clear all doubts if there's not a better lynch, or isn't that what happened to Quick?

[Maduisha]

Madiusha you are the person I am both most/least concerned with me being in their POE so I’m not upset but I am going to prove you wrong.

Don't worry, I don't actually have a case against you because I'm pretty certain Votato is the last scum. I only mentioned you as PoE solution because DK and Enomis have towntold for me, DK more so because of the amount of effort vs Enomis' scarce content, but they were both consistent with their logic and their early 1v1 looked really spontaneous emotion. I'm aware it could have been SvT and that's why I felt genuineness but I really view it as TvT.

My worst concern about Enomis is lack of activity combined by the fact that he seems to show up only when he gets voted, which is... weird for someone that said he doesn't care anymore.

[Maduisha]

And if Votato is accusing DK of rolefishing by claiming doctor, then that's just ridiculous. Claiming a PR as scum to out a real PR when you're the last scum standing is suicide, I don't understand where he's going with that accusation but it makes no sense.

except it isnt suicide because he retracted. and now you think the whole think was a town ploy... clearly it isnt suicide.

I mean that it is suicide if it were rolefishing like you are saying, because if the real doctor appears, the scum is exposed. Even if they retract by this point, most people wouldn't be happy about outing the real doctor and they'd likely get lynched.

By this I mean that I believe DK when they said they only claimed doctor because they were certain there was not a real one that would cc and so they could fish for reactions, not rolefish.

the only people who were certain that there was no doctor at that point (and even now) would be scum. either a) there is a doctor, and both scum and the doctor know that a doctor exist, or b) there is no doctor, and only scum knows since the rest of us are VTs. the fact that Dk was certain and now does not claim to be the doctor is further evidence of Dk!scum

In my head, DK's gambit comes from town because I think they were planning to do this only if Ydrasse died, which meant a real doctor does not exist because they'd have attracted the block with that bait pre-Joqiza flip. If Ydrasse didn't die, they would have come out saying they were not the doctor at the beginning of the day and thanking the anonymous doctor for saving Ydrasse.

I think it makes sense, because if there really was a doctor, DK here saves the doctor from being blocked and saves Ydrasse from death one turn. When they gained knowledge that the doctor didn't exist, thought of a strategy to gather reactions and continued the "claim" for a bit more. Makes sense?

[Maduisha]

And if Votato is accusing DK of rolefishing by claiming doctor, then that's just ridiculous. Claiming a PR as scum to out a real PR when you're the last scum standing is suicide, I don't understand where he's going with that accusation but it makes no sense.

except it isnt suicide because he retracted. and now you think the whole think was a town ploy... clearly it isnt suicide.

I mean that it is suicide if it were rolefishing like you are saying, because if the real doctor appears, the scum is exposed. Even if they retract by this point, most people wouldn't be happy about outing the real doctor and they'd likely get lynched.

By this I mean that I believe DK when they said they only claimed doctor because they were certain there was not a real one that would cc and so they could fish for reactions, not rolefish.

the only people who were certain that there was no doctor at that point (and even now) would be scum. either a) there is a doctor, and both scum and the doctor know that a doctor exist, or b) there is no doctor, and only scum knows since the rest of us are VTs. the fact that Dk was certain and now does not claim to be the doctor is further evidence of Dk!scum

In my head, DK's gambit comes from town because I think they were planning to do this only if Ydrasse died, which meant a real doctor does not exist because they'd have attracted the block with that bait pre-Joqiza flip. If Ydrasse didn't die, they would have come out saying they were not the doctor at the beginning of the day and thanking the anonymous doctor for saving Ydrasse.

I think it makes sense, because if there really was a doctor, DK here saves the doctor from being blocked and saves Ydrasse from death one turn. When they gained knowledge that the doctor didn't exist, thought of a strategy to gather reactions and continued the "claim" for a bit more. Makes sense?

no because as enomis and i have said, the scum would literally never kill ydrasse if there was a doctor. they would simply roleblock ydrasse and kill elsewhere until doc died. cuz doc would save ydrasse.

I know, what I was saying is that under the premise of the scum believing DK's claim at the end of D2, the strategy would make sense as town. Like, I can see that being the plan on their mind.

[Maduisha]

the thing that strikes me about the fake-claim on day 2 is that he hard-claimed. it doesnt make sense to hard claim. either we are in column a, and there is a doctor, in which case there is likely going to be a CC and his fake-claim doesnt protect the doctor, but even if there is no CC the mafia still just roleblocks cop and kills Dk. or we could be in column c, in which case scum simply ignores him. only a soft-claim helps, by not forcing a doc to CC but drawing the kill.

I think stating it as "hard claim" was just to solidify the bait by making scum believe it more if they thought DK would face consequences the next day by backtracking.

[Maduisha]

Enomis still hasn't showed up... well, there's no risk of him quickhammering Votato because he townreads Votato, but I thought he'd have more to say when his townread is going to die...

[Maduisha]

is what enomis said town motivated to you votato?

100%. if enomis!scum = true, enomis shows up, makes up an excuse, and hammers. thats super easy, and then he can push for your lynch tomorrow. that post actually only comes from town. enomis is clear. if we just lynch Dk with apogee as a back-up if Dk somehow flips town, we win.

I don't think that Enomis is scum, but you do understand this is as wifom as it gets, right? You can never assume scum wants to quickhammer, in fact they can wait out the hammer to try to look towny like Joqiza did. Especially if they're not one of the hammer targets at the moment. And a player can be town and quickhammer in this situation because they think there's not more to add and that still doesn't make them scum, just reckless. I'm all for you backing up your reads, but using wifomy hypotheticals like this makes them pretty flimsy, I hope you understand.

your lack of self-vote means you're lying.

how about this. lets lynch apogee today. that flip will give us 100% certainty about each other if it flips town.

Was this a reaction test to see if DK would bite the bait proposal or were you serious? I'm guessing you can answer now since they have already rejected it.

[Maduisha]

Now let's get to where I find problem with DkKoba's logic.

First I have no problem with the gambit as doc trying to draw the kill from scum.
Unlike votato, The hard claim of doctor and backtracking could still be from town is still NAI because I can see DkKoba doing this as a reaction test.

But What I have problem with is his response and logic after the reaction test:
1)

Logic not consistent

His post straight after.

3. enomis if I was the docotor I am a very likely roleblock target. I am probably speaking from EM experience but your explaination is better than votato's "lol youre not doc".

And his post a few posts later:

if scum somehow was ballsy enough to get a doc read and roleblock-kill cop then i applaud them but doc would still know they were known and it would stilll work as a rxn test.

Shows that he is not even consistent in his thinking of reaction test. If DkKoba is trying to do a reaction test, I will think his mindset and logic would be a lot more consistent.

2)

Didn't think through his reaction test plan.

I do not believe anyone else doc told this game that is why I would challenge another doc claim and go all the way and get them lynched.

The reason why DkKoba didn't think through the plan is a scumtell is where it usually is NAI is because DkKoba will think about what should happen if a doctor was to cc him.
Instead a scum would know that there is no doctor and thus be caught not thinking it through and have to give me a response on the spot.
So here's why the logic is wrong.
a) Would a doctor really doctor tell? Isn't it a doctor role to stay hidden?
b) The doctor that cc'ed him can be a town doctor but he said that he will tunnel the cced doctor to death and lynch him

Here's why the doctor could be town.
i) The doctor could be protecting another person since he thought that SCUM WON'T KILL YDRASSE if there is a doctor.
ii) Given that DkKoba believes that scum will roleblock the doctor, from his pov, there is a chance that the doctor was really roleblocked and cop was killed.
iii) This is literally the

reason

that DKkoba gave on his reaction test.

--------------------

The above is the logic portion. Then there is his other posts.

He calls me scum at one moment. Then call me having no content at the other moment. There is literally no consistent flow of thought here.
Also, he said he is re-evaluating everyone but he didn't even consider Apogee. He keeps mentioning enomis/votato because he thinks that this two are the easy lynch.
Also, his thought inconsistency in DAY 1 which I have pointed out is still there despite him not answering it.

I can also see some post which I get abit of gut town feel from them.

But honestly, the scum points just really outweight the town points.

Also, Because I have Votato and Maduisha as town, this really strengthens my scumread on DkKoba as it is either him/Apogee.

I am still paranoid about apogee tbh because I can see a world where dkkoba is not scum and I am killed tonight. Tomorrow, votato will be lynched.

I'm glad you actually delivered! Thank you for bringing in content even when you said you are not motivated anymore. I'm gonna answer in parts since you addressed this post at Apogee and me and you broke it down in parts yourself.

1) I think there's actually no inconsistency between those two quotes unless I'm missing something. In the first one they say they were likely roleblock target if they were the doctor and in the second one they are talking about an hypothetical scenario in which scum knows their claim is fake + have found the actual doctor through PoE or some other method and saying it'd be impressive. Am I misreading something?

2)

a) Fair enough, I don't think a doctor wants to crumb that they are... but maybe it's useful to set up crumbs so people believe you in case of counter claim? I mostly see masons crumb, but I wouldn't be surprised to see other PRs use them too.

b)

I) That sounds like a logical step for the doctor to make, however in that case there are many night kill targets the doctor can choose to protect and they have no clue who is going to die. The chances of success protecting someone are higher if they target Ydrasse than if they play the lottery trying to protect one of the many other players, because there exists the possibility of mafia roleblocking the wrong person (DK baiting the roleblock in the thread, for example) and still choosing to kill Ydrasse.

II) The chance exists but it's very low. And in the scenario in which the doctor knows they're known by mafia (and therefore never getting to use their night action ever again), if there was a real doctor, then they would have counter claimed DK at the start of this day, considering what happened at the end of D2. A doctor that never again gets to use their night action has no other use for their role than CCing scum, right? So, I think following this logic, it's plausible for town!DK to claim doctor again for the reaction test without it necessarily meaning they're informed of the absence of a doctor because they're scum.

III) I don't exactly know what you're trying to imply with this, but I think after what I explained, saying that they want to lynch anyone that CCed them after the start of the day doesn't sound so illogical, does it? The real doctor would have disclosed it right away, not waited for opportunism to spin the situation on someone else. They are supposed to know they're useless, so why hide it? They wouldn't.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I think you should check the couple pages before your post, because they literally ISOed Apogee and voted them before switching to Votato again... sure, it was a quick change, but I wouldn't say they didn't explore the slot, because they quoted posts that seemed scummy/sounded like coaching from Joqiza, which is a fair point of view that even Apogee admitted.

[Maduisha]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

Can I ask what the chainsaw term refers to? I checked the wiki glossary and I found nothing... how does scum!Enomis benefit from switching the target from Votato to you if that would mean both wagons are on town? Any lynch should be fine with him, right...

[Maduisha]

Was this a reaction test to see if DK would bite the bait proposal or were you serious? I'm guessing you can answer now since they have already rejected it.

Also, Votato, you speak about DK ignoring your questions, but you didn't answer mine and I'm really concerned about the meaning of that sudden offer. Was it actually serious?

[Maduisha]

At this point with enomis' bullshit posts when he came back it makes me unsure on votato bc it rly looked like he set up a chainsaw attempt on votato and now i want him lynched first.

Can I ask what the chainsaw term refers to? I checked the wiki glossary and I found nothing... how does scum!Enomis benefit from switching the target from Votato to you if that would mean both wagons are on town? Any lynch should be fine with him, right...

rebelling against a nearly sure lynch as mafia that u know is going to flip town because u want to get town cred for it. oftentimes unless u had a good reason before a wagon formed etc.

But if the lynch you redirected still results in town flip, you would only get towncred from the person you saved. And Votato was already having the same solve as Enomis (you, then Apogee if you flip green). I think it sounds kind of redundant and I'm not sure Enomis has ulterior motives...

[Maduisha]

I agree the spike in activity when he gets voted is a contradiction with the statement he made early on that he didn't care if he got lynched because he lost motivation. I'm a bit torn in that because being afk reinforces the claim that they do not care, but coming back when under pressure is the exact opposite, so I would like Enomis to address this inconsistency if possible...

Also, I know discussing replacement in-game is bad, but it crossed my mind a couple of times that it's weird not to read because you don't care and not to replace out (like Clemency).

[Maduisha]

I think the progression argument is kind of harsh because D1 reads are very far away now. Enomis posted very little, but surely his opinion changed overtime. The main problem would be that... he says he can't explain why Votato is town (likely gut?) and wanting to follow gut alone this far into the game is dangerous and I don't like it, but in complete honesty, I can't see scum backing townreads with gut D3 and expecting not to get shitted on. These kind of attitude tells make me think Enomis is legitimately an uninterested town that is not replacing out of courtesy because the game is 100+ pages long.

[Maduisha]

Was this a reaction test to see if DK would bite the bait proposal or were you serious? I'm guessing you can answer now since they have already rejected it.

Also, Votato, you speak about DK ignoring your questions, but you didn't answer mine and I'm really concerned about the meaning of that sudden offer. Was it actually serious?

yeah more or less. i really think this game needs Dk flipped. and if im unsuccessful in convincing people that im town tomorrow, or unsuccessful in convincing people of my solve, the at some point i lose regardless, and i'll probably just give up and accept defeat. i came pretty close to doing that yesterday or the day before. if you're alive tomorrow it doesnt really matter what i say for example, because you've decided that im scum 100%, so ill never convince you otherwise. DK doesnt seem to be open to logic right now. but that could be coming from hubris combined with paranoia. maybe.

and in the scenario where he claimed, if there really was a doctor, then mafia would never shoot ydrasse. they would simply roleblock ydrasse and kill another slot, knowing that the doctor would have to protect ydrasse. the doctor can stop bullets, but nothing can stop the roleblocker. having an IC is better for mafia than risking that their kill is stopped by the doctor.

Yeah but doesn't that last bit of your logic imply you don't actually believe DK is scum? I'm gonna try to break it down so it's easier to see what I'm saying. Let's examine the scum!DK scenario you are proposing:

- DK is scum.
- There was never any chance of doctor and that's why Ydrasse is dead.
- DK claimed the doctor role twice. Ydrasse is dead so people already suspect there's no doctor to being with. How does this move make sense as scum for DK? The only purpose I can see to it is to weed out a potential real doctor, but that doesn't really work because people would want to lynch both doctors to find the remaining scum if there are two. And it also doesn't really work because of what I said before; a doctor existing implies they got discovered and roleblocked and if that happened then they would have outed themselves already at the beginning of the day and DK would have nothing to "rolefish" for in the first place.

And to address the first part of your post, you're striving to lynch DK, then you are telling me that in the case they are not scum, you are screwed because the real scum will lock you in lylo with me and let me vote you first and end the game. What I'm seeing here is that you don't actually believe in the lynch you are proposing because the actions realized by DK don't really tie with what you think mafia is doing. And wanting to lynch someone you don't actually believe is scum while also saying "man if I get to lylo it's lost because they'll force the person tunneled on me into it" feels like you're trying to make me reconsider for lylo (which I understand). I can see how this last bit can come from town, but the scenario you are painting doesn't really make much sense to me. So, you'll have to understand that it's hard not to tunnel when you seem to be proposing a lynch that you yourself aren't buying much.

[Maduisha]

best reason: lynch all lurkers.
worst reason: i mostly like the content when there is content. I think you're more likely scum. i think re-reading the part of the game where i was pushing at you, midway, and maduisha will probably shed light. in particular, what did joq do? i feel like you have kind of skated by this game.

as a mod that likes to root for scum teams, datisi is sitting in his mod PT laughing at us for being incompetent

hes also gonna quote this PM and laugh extra at me. ::((((((((

This post also makes me think you might have more reasons to push Apogee than DK? So, why DK...

[Maduisha]

just noticed one of enomis' games finished and their attitude in that game was extremely different as town than in this game viewtopic.php?f=11&t=82865&start=950

as if they are fatigued here

Understandable considering the flow of that game is very different (finished in 39 pages even though it lasted a month or so). This one reached over 100 pages because it happened to contain several users that like making lots of small posts, and some people work better when there are less posts that contain more condensed thoughts. It could also be that he rolled scum and dislikes it like you said, but I think we have to be honest and admit not all environments are the same either, so it's natural that they produce a different reaction out of people.

[Maduisha]

also dk needs to die because he is making it harder to game solve

What I'm saying is that when you reply to Apogee about Enomis and you end up talking about him, you seem to have actual suspicions about Apogee and here you are expressing a want to lynch DK for "obstruction to game solve" and that approach doesn't make sense to me. Like, you're advocating to lynch someone you suspect less out of the two unless I'm misunderstanding something.

[Maduisha]

@Enomis, I hope you understand you're appealing only to Apogee to vote DK with you.

[Maduisha]

what do you think of enomis maduisha

I think he's town for the reasons I said before. I don't think scum checks out from the game as hard as Enomis and Clemency did, so while the playstyle is kind of harmful, I really can't see it as scummy. Especially when he said we could hammer him D1 showing that he actually did not care (and that's kinda softing VT so I don't think scum throws away fake claiming this easily, lol). As of latest posts, I find he's following gutpings from D1 which can feel infuriating for you, and I feel his post in 3001 is a bit of a reach because he's using wording from you talking about an hypothetical scum!You scenario to nitpick. But his post in 3010 actually has some good points even if I don't buy the wagon. He might have scarce content, but when he does produce content, I don't see the logic line coming from scum is all I'm saying.

[Maduisha]

my vote on you was a reaction test. scum!apogee would be more likely to want to hammer me for voting him. plus now you have extra incentive to hammer me since im coming after you tomorrow. Dk if i get lynched today you should go after apogee tomorrow. enomis i dunno between Dk and apogee who you should push. probably Dk though. maduisha, good luck in the afterlife. i hope you re-evaluate and that hindsight is useful for introspection.
VOTE: DkKoba

pedit: that said enomis, if i can convince people to vote apogee i would totally lynch there.

This post kinda pings me again (ye, I know, Maduisha tunneling Votato, nothing new...) because you seem to know what Apogee does as scum. Do you have a source for scum!Apogee meta? Please share. And apparently he passed your reaction test, but you still insist you'd lynch Apogee here.

at this point i really hope you are the lynch either way, scumboy

And then this... it's like you

know

there'll be a next day and you're setting Apogee up to look scummy so you can vote him first comfortably.

[Maduisha]

I'm writing this during lunch break but I'll come back later in the evening. I think the NK is entirely wifom because DK said they'd lock their vote on Enomis right at the start of the game and I think this can be used by Apogee to frame Enomis, or by Enomis to clean himself because it's too convenient for him, so I think I should set aside the NK result to make my final read.

Enomis, you said you can't clear me like in D3 which is understandable, but you townread me D1 and D2, right? So if you're going to make a logic jump here, I would like for it to be one backed by arguments. If we're going to lose to you, I would like to see you trying your best.

Right now I'm conflicted because I townread both of you for different reasons during all the game but I was clearly wrong about one of you and I pushed poor Votato all game for nothing. I owe him an apology after the game ends... I took half a month break from the site to try to stop my reads cloud my judgement and I still did him dirty like I did to LL in my last game. I just can't learn...

So, I townread Enomis for lack of interest combined by low rate of activity which makes the former feel more firmly true and coming from town, and his content was not extensive but it had consistency.

And I townread Apogee for large engagement with the game with added effort to ISO people and re-evaluate constantly by re-reading the thread which is huge coming from a newbie in a 100+ page game. It's a commitment that I'm not sure how to read given the circumstances.

Consistent behavior or large investment... I don't know which is the bigger towntell here, but I'm going to ISO read both slots later and make a list of towny/scumy things I see in both so I can lay out my thought process to see where I'm wrong.

[Maduisha]

Alright, I'm gonna start pointing out the things I find alignment indicative of both slots and weigh down the chances:

Apogee:

Spoiler:

Things I find

towny

:

- High commitment in a long game as newbie. Actually don't know if that's NAI but I'm willing to townread it.

- Fluid conversations with other players when he showed up, indicative of authenticity of thought.

- Willing to re-read and reconsiderate and bring quotes to illustrate points, which demonstrates re-reading actually happened.

Things I see as

scummy

:

- His first serious vote was combined with the wording "for now" which implies he might want to pivot away and puts the receiver under no real pressure, which could indicate it was posturing. This happened really early in the game and didn't happen again but I was rereading and I thought it'd be of importance to note down.

- Participated in the lynch of 2 townies (Quick and Votato). Not necessarily scum indicative but sometimes there's info in wagon contents, so noted down as well.

- Didn't participate in the Joqiza wagon for exploration (before cop guilty, I mean). We were agreeing that Votato was suspicious, but when Joqiza got wagoned by 2 people, this was Apogee's reaction: 2195, kinda wanting to redirect the heat to the other wagon from D1, perhaps? And this other post wondering why aren't we focusing on Votato. Not sure if his tunnel was bigger than mine at that point, but refusing to explore a slot for the first time kinda pings me: 2202.

NAI

stuff:

- Day 3 he openly positioned for Votato>DkKoba lynch, but DK died. I think scum Apogee would benefit from leaving DkKoba alive and let them vote Enomis on impulse and end the game, but as I said before the night kill is wifom, so I'm not too sure I want to count this as anything.

Enomis:

Spoiler:

Things I find

towny

:

- Declared lack of interest and also low activity. That combined with this post makes me feel he actually didn't mind getting lynched, and also that mentality kinda softs VT, so he was ruling himself out of fake claims as early as page 67, which was D1: 1655. I don't think scum locks themselves as VT read D1, especially considering there were 2 bigger wagons than his at the time (with 4 and 3 votes compared to his with 2). This leads me to believe a tell like that under no real pressure is genuine.

- Consistency in townreads and scumreads through the game, didn't hop around randomly with no progression. Keeping consistency with a low post count in a large game is telling in itself.

- Early emotion displays with DkKoba seemed genuine.

- Was adamant about asking questions and getting answered, didn't just post questions to pad the thread with fake content and go away.

Things I see as

scummy

:

- I feel conflicted about the lack of engagement even if I just said I townread it. While it seems genuine to me, at the same time I feel this could be a strategy he adopted to hide when he saw the game was really fast paced and pages got cluttered quickly? Lack of participation is generally scumsided even if it comes from town, but it seemed so genuine that I'm not sure. I'm gonna note it down in both alignment sections because it's driving me crazy and I don't want it oversighted.

- Death tunnel on DkKoba. Why is this scummy? And how dare I bring it up after I death tunneled Votato myself? Well, simply because... DkKoba is dead and nobody lynched him. I thought about it and it can be that Enomis found DK to be the strongest town player and that's why he was adamant on getting them killed one way or another? And they threatened to insta-vote Enomis if left alive. Maybe he wanted to make sure it didn't really happen?

- Was really, really engaged in exploring Joqiza D2 when we began voting him and asked him questions about the legitimacy of his reads and chased him about avoiding questions, but did not join the wagon at all even though it was not al L-1 when he was pressuring him this much. I would normally townread this engagement with him but the lack of a vote makes it feel like a pressureless show and it actually has me pondering if there was a motive behind that.

NAI

stuff:

- Positioning in wagons:
D1: Voting Votato (Quick is lynched)
D2: Not voting (Joqiza is lynched)
D3: Voting Votato (Votato is lynched)

This has both good and bad connotations, so I don't know where to put it, so it stays in the NAI section. Participated only in 1 mislynch, did not vote the person he was pressuring D2 that was later confirmed as scum.

This is all I've seen for now, feel free to pick it apart and give your opinion and tell me if I'm being biased or what.

[Maduisha]

Also, Did Maduisha townread DK alot? Because I don't seem to recall her having townread on anyone other than me. But then again, this is probably why I need to iso both of you again.

Yeah, I townread them based on aggressive attitude, emotional reaction with you early on, and consistency of scumread-> voting with no posturing.

[Maduisha]

I agree that everything can be wifom, Enomis. But I think we should all admit that seeing an argument someone makes as wifom or not, and seeing the night kill as wifom are

very

different things because the argument from person X can come from scum or not, but the NK comes

100%

from scum and it's usually weaponized so town reads too much into it and trap themselves.

If you want to discuss it regardless to support the rest of your argument, I am not opposed. I'm just saying I don't want to base my final decision on it (like, clearing someone through the night kill implications or voting someone due to the same).

[Maduisha]

I understand not seeing Joqiza as scummy until the guilty proved you wrong, I'm not accusing you of not suspecting him. I'm just noting down the fact that people wanted to explore his wagon before the guilty was out and you expressed discomfort in the fact that it was not Votato who got wagoned at day start. A wagon doesn't mean a lynch must happen, so that's why exploration of other options is important, and this was the first time Joqiza was pressured at all, while Votato had gotten to L-1 already the day prior. It confuses me that you'd reject exploring and that's why I included it in the scummy part, but I get it can also come from town stubbornness.

[Maduisha]

As for your mention of theatre, when I did my reread I tried to focus on you guy's own positioning and arguments because mafia can very well create interactions that look like they are whiteknighting a townie to make them look bad if they die, or make shitty arguments and unvote quickly to also make the accused player look implicated. I say this from experience because in my second game I rolled scum and my partner spent half the game doing these things to ensure town couldn't read anything useful from associations.

But everyone's words are their own and they're safe content to analyze, always. Your posture, your reaction, your investment, how you join wagons, how you exit them... no scum buddy can cover you there.

[Maduisha]

Like, take Joqiza's friendly behavior with DkKoba and the fact that he treated them as lock-town right away. If Joqiza lives, it's a good pocketing attempt. If Joqiza dies, DK looks so bad for having played buddies with scum so blatantly that people will want to lynch them just to make sure they weren't townreading each other to openly be scummy together. The interaction was genuine from DK, but in retrospect it looks so suspicious, right? That's the wifom trap. Association reads are very powerful and helpful but they're a double edged sword.

[Maduisha]

I think I might need to do a second ISO reread, this time focusing on interactions with Joqiza because I purposely avoided that from wifom fear, but maybe analyzing them while not taking them for granted (with a pinch of salt? I don't know how you say this in English) would be necessary because I still feel torn after all the good/bad things I pointed out.

[Maduisha]

I'll do that later, though. I'm entering work in 15 minutes...

[Maduisha]

Ah, one last thing: I would like you guys to give your opinion about wagon contents at the end of each day (there are links to the each vote count in the first post). I posted what I saw even if a bit disorganized, and I would like to see everyone's interpretations of vote tendencies vs accusation tendencies and lynch outcomes.

I'm sorry if that request is a pain in the ass, but I really want perspectives other than mine in the matter, because what seems scummy to me might be NAI, or what I find AI could be NAI and I want a breath of fresh air...

[Maduisha]

Alright, here I come with my promised analysis of Joqiza interactions. Like I said before, I don't want to read too much into interactions created by scum because they're often weaponized but I guess it's better to put all the cards on the table to help each other see everything from all perspectives.

I'll start with Apogee:

First interaction with Joqiza, posts #380, #384, 388, #392 (collected together because they're tied in context,

there are commentaries inside the spoilers

):

380:

Spoiler:

Alright that brings us to the last read, most important one saved for last:

Apogee

Immediately questions that Clemency townslipped, seems confused by the proposition, leaves door open for enomis to push on it while clearly not actually following the logic, scummy. Has a bizaree wagonomics post in #64, “something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird,” yeah it’s funny he got taken up to L-2 by page 2 but handwaving it away as “weird” in this vague sense feels like a way to take pressure off him. Honestly an Apogee/enomis scumteam could be the tea based on their weird interactions and their posts in general. Post #81 is suspicious as well, “Feels like someone there has a deeper motive?” Vague histrionics about wolves moving in and off wagons with no fingers directly pointed. Post #178 is super questionable, how has no one called them out on this. Huge hedging behavior in the middle of what was very probably town vs town without actually trying to defuse it, and no backing for any reads in that post. I have no clue how this guy has skated by this far without anyone putting any sort of pressure on him and so I’m going to start

I'm surprisingly happy that someone has started a wagon on me, mostly because since the only thing I know for sure is my alignment I'll hopefully be able to analyze reactions and push's better. Let's break down this argument:

Immediately questions that Clemency townslipped, seems confused by the proposition, leaves door open for enomis to push on it while clearly not actually following the logic, scummy.

This was a genuine misunderstanding. I was fully convinced at the time of 21[\post] that Enomis's "scumslip" was a joking way of disputing clemency's first post claim of "rejoice, the best player is on your side" and claiming that Enomis was really the best players. My reasoning was because of step 2 and 3 in: Enomis's logic

2) Your claim of town was "rejoice! the best player in this game is on your side tonight"
3) Meaning you need to know that I am town in-order to claim town (Since only I posted beside you when you claim town)

You can see how this could be interpreted as Enomis claiming in a round-about manner that they are the best player.

-----------------------------

Has a bizaree wagonomics post in #64, “something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird,” yeah it’s funny he got taken up to L-2 by page 2 but handwaving it away as “weird” in this vague sense feels like a way to take pressure off him. Honestly an Apogee/enomis scumteam could be the tea based on their weird interactions and their posts in general. Post #81 is suspicious as well, “Feels like someone there has a deeper motive?” Vague histrionics about wolves moving in and off wagons with no fingers directly pointed.

Well I can't speak to an enomis scumteam besides saying I'm not on it, but both posts were accurate reflections of my thoughts at the time. I've approached this game trying to be very careful about going hard on wagons earlier. In person, I consider myself a more mechanical player, and I get most of my reads through voting patterns, night moves, and catching people in contradictions. In this new format (online), I was mostly angling off of gut intuition at that point since I'm not fully confident in straight scumreads, and even you conceded the L-2 move was noticeably strange.

------------------------------

Huge hedging behavior in the middle of what was very probably town vs town without actually trying to defuse it, and no backing for any reads in that post.

Ok in [post]178 I'll agree I was hedging. I was marginally overwhelmed reading through that night. The DkKoba read there was my best take on them, although sure I guess I could have cited particularized information. Midwaybear I wasn't making a claim, just saying my read on them in 81 and 111 still held. Ydrasse and Clem I threw in hoping some conversation might be stimulated, but both of those also felt self-explainatory to me at the time.

------------------------------

I'm happy to keep talking about earlier posts of mine, but I'd also like your opinion on say 233 and 266, where I feel I get a little more mechanical.

This post is by Apogee in response to Joqiza's claim that Apogee is his highest scumread D1. Joqiza accuses Apogee of leaving an easy way opened for Enomis to be scummy and theorizes Apogee + Enomis scum team. Then argues Apogee is scummy because he doesn't back up his reads and defuses interaction to reduce thread movement and hedging himself. Apogee answers by admitting the hedging, denying the Enomis scumpair, and asking for Joqiza to read more into his other posts he might have ignored. In a world of scum!Apogee, this could be an attempt for Joqiza to "clear" Apogee by the end of the interaction, but also implicate Enomis if people were to buy the wagon and actually pressure Joqiza's partner and get him lynched. I think if Apogee is scum, it's more likely that Joqiza was trying to clear him rather than actually push him to death because it was too early for such a thing, but the tie to Enomis is interesting because it can work both ways (Enomis is partner+wants to implicate Apogee, or the other way around). Since this is the biggest piece of wifom material we can get from interactions, I won't give it much weight.

384:

Spoiler:

I need some time to think about this idk if I like it. Honestly I disagree with this count of vote count / bandwagon analysis before we even have any info on anyone's alignment, like I've looked at this sort of thing mechanically AFTER we have scum in the graveyard and I'm looking for partner interactions but I find it really questionable before we know anything about any of the other players, so 233 seems like a huge huge reach to me. Your post 266 is also pretty weak honestly sorry but it's true, I touched on this earlier but I don't think it's a good look and you're still trying to prevent people from making TvT reads which is exactly how scum behaves.

Tone is just so so unconfident, hesitant to clear anyone but also not trying to push anyone as scum. Could still be villager but just weird to me that no one's called you out for this. If you can do me a favor can you basically revisit 266 or maybe drop an updated read list but basically go into more depth about why you mark certain people as town and why you mark others as scum, I think that would be helpful at least

So re: vote analytics I’m happy to look into mechanics a little but even as you mentioned that’s more a d2+ thing. I’ve also never played a d1 start before, so all of this action is new to me. I will take you and Maduisha both indicating that hedging on claims doesn’t help with pressure as a sign I should be more confident even if I don’t fully feel it. I have no problem doing a more confident reads list but it’s hard early on for me to overcome being a hedger by nature. I can accept if you think some of my content is weak or illogical, but I’m not sure those posts indicate me being scum.

I’m also going to push back (hopefully more confidently) on some of your claims regarding me perpetuating TVT. I think you are a) conflating reads you have now on situations with what information I had in the moment. Particularly with the Enomis early situation. I’d just misread one of their actual claims after they had misunderstood one of my rvs reasons for voting. I was not particularly confident in the situation. Also, at that time although I didn’t think that the scumslip necessarily existed, Clemency was kind of off the wall, I had no desire to shut down content, and prompting some more interaction by not committing yet seemed smart.

Not sure why 233 is questionable I felt the voting pattern part wasn’t a huge portion.

Joqiza answers Apogee's request of revisiting his more mechanical posts and says he does not buy the contents because "wagon analysis is useless without flips". Then procees to hammer again that Apogee's reads need some backing and he needs to explain why he scum/townreads anyone and also says he seems afraid to post confident reads at all. Apogee answers by admitting wagon analysis is more useful when there are dead people + admits hedging is not that useful

but

refuses to let Joqiza pressure him to make a firm readlist at the moment because he hasn't enough information yet to provide one. I honestly want to townread this interaction, because I can see a little of myself in Apogee's response. Not letting others pressure you to make out reads out of thin air is huge for me to see if someone is pro-town or not. It could of course be them working together to excuse Apogee's lack of strong reads to the rest of players and also make it look like genuine exploration of Apogee from town!Joqiza, but I feel like the first half is unlikely because Apogee was under no pressure when Joqiza made these pin-pointy arguments about wishy washy reads and I think he either did it because he knew nobody would jump the wagon (scum Apogee) or because Joqiza wanted to implicate Apogee by squeezing forced reads out of him and I think that's more likely based on the fact that this interaction was not necessary for them if they're both scum and Joqiza could have tried to capitalize other wagons but didn't.

388:

Spoiler:

Hm okay. Let me clarify the framework I'm approaching this with.

We're on Day 1 of a setup with 7 town 2 wolves. How are wolves incentivized to behave? There are a couple things but these are the three points I'm focusing on for right now:
1. wolves want the day to end with a town lynched
2. wolves want to distance themselves from the lynch as much as possible
3. in general they want to be townread or have "towncredit"

Btw: at this point in time the ratio of information between the wolves and the town is at the highest it will be in any day of the game, wolves know everyone's alignment whereas town know nothing and have no information to work off of.

In general what I have seen is that on Day 1 of a game wolves are cautious. Wolves are less likely to hardpush on a town player and if they do it can backfire because in order to do so they must effect conviction in their tone and analysis on a player whose alignment they already know to be town. Wolves who hardpush can play their hand by revealing the bad faith nature of their push, and additionally they can simply be blindly OMGUSed by towns who get emotional. Wolves are cautious, wolves wait for a town vs. town bandwagon to start and then encourage it, wolves say things like "I'm not sure which one is scum but this doesn't read like town vs town" and then after one player gets lynched they go gUeSs I wAs wRoNg and push on the other. Hedging behavior can also be indicative of scum because it is indicative of MAF KNOWLEDGE and the need to SET UP AFTER A MISLYNCH. "Oh, I always had reservations, I was just following/sheeping X." Yeah hedging behavior does not always imply wolf, obviously not because if it did we'd have like four wolves this game. That said wolf on day 1 often implies hedging behavior, the exception being more experienced scum players who may hard tunnel if they think they can get away with it and it's beneficial for them to do so. You're saying that you are a hedger by nature but unfortunately as this is appears to be your first forum game on the site I have no way to verify that claim. I'll keep it in mind.

I’m also going to push back (hopefully more confidently) on some of your claims regarding me perpetuating TVT. I think you are a) conflating reads you have now on situations with what information I had in the moment. Particularly with the Enomis early situation. I’d just misread one of their actual claims after they had misunderstood one of my rvs reasons for voting. I was not particularly confident in the situation. Also, at that time although I didn’t think that the scumslip necessarily existed, Clemency was kind of off the wall, I had no desire to shut down content, and prompting some more interaction by not committing yet seemed smart.

Perhaps I'm misreading, if so, correct me. Let me explain exactly what it reads like to me. By post 23, it appears to me that you have a grasp on the situation:

"but I personally figured the "your side" was more of a presumption of most of us being townies, and his indirect reference to you being a townie is more of the same."

This is the take I agree with regardless of Clemency's true alignment. In post 63, enomis is doubling down again on the technicalities of Clemency's language, yet you remain on the sidelines. In fact, let me quote post 64:

I've been reading back through the thread, and although I don't feel I have solid reads a few things stood out.
I just keep thinking about the pretty quick 3 person wagon on Enomis that then Clemency withdrew from. Clemency's withdrawal could be a scum move to not be seen as wagoning too hard too early? But I'm not sure it really makes more sense for him to withdraw as a maf than as a town who just didn't want a big push yet. Feel like I still need to see more to make a firm guess on the individual players involved, but either way something with the whole early votes for Enomis feels weird.

Instead of clarifying the "slip" argument between enomis and Clemency with information it appears that you possess, this post effects a subtle shade of Clemency and a subtle defense of enomis. Why was that your interpretation of Clemency's withdrawal, if you agree with me that the reason the enomis wagon felt "weird" was because it was too early to run him up to L-2?

First part as in your mechanical framework I agree with. We are in a low-information state. With regards to hedging however, I'll agree your take is one possibility. I think you are a little reductionist because it can be useful to moderate expectations as a town. So early on, and with low chances of any of those wagons (at least in those forms) moving into a real vote, giving my honest opinion felt more important than eliminating the chance of me trying to keep an escape hatch. Moderating takes (imo) gives people a better insight into my thought process, which can provide information in the future, and I always think as town being as honest as possible with takes is best. I agree going forward on real wagons, hedging will be more something to watch out for.

---------------------------

I agree in post 23 I understand the "scumslip" doesn't seem to a real slip.

Before 64, no one was talking about the scumslip being a prime reason for suspicion on Clemency, with the exception of enomis mentioning it once in 63 as something that may be true. I'll quote the takes on him leading up to my post there:

[=Whole lot of posts about Clemency]

i dont
i'd simply rather push a newbie slot than an SE since they're more likely to slip up or let on more than they should

i prefer taking the path of least resistance

yikes. this is a scummy reason.

what makes u townread emonis right now clemency. your unvote is stalling what can be a good early alignment telling push.

this also comes off as awful accusative considering we're talking about the first wagon of the game maybe 1 real time day in? nobody's gonna crack and fold this early on unless they're brand new to the game


it feels more like you're trying to latch on to a loose end for town points than legitimately trying to shake alignment indicative play out of people

u said something so blatently scummy there was no reason to need to explain it. you claimed you want an "easy push". You're going to need to give some reason to pivot other than "its easier to go after someone noobier".

And now you're pivoting to trying to claim I'm trying to needlessly shade you? I find that ridiculous.

pedit: clemency seems to be trying to focus on discrediting me over trying to help gamesolve and I'd like to highlight that with his recent posts in reaction to me calling him on his weird reasoning for pivoting off pressure.

no one answered my question about mechposting. hurts like crazy...

honestly i didn't think clemency's reasoning was so weird? it's easier to get tells out of newer players than it is people who know how it goes, so some votes who's never been in that position before would probably yield more tells.

however, i don't think it really justifies clemency being so... aloof? hands-off? in this instance. it makes more sense to ask "well, what do you see about xyz that makes it so bad." fmpov? idk if that's a difference in playstyle or not about not engaging until there's more to engage against though.

idk clemency seems a bit defensive, yet nonchalant which makes me a bit suspicious
just waiting for the last two slots now lol

pedit: what's mechposting

mechposting is a term i made up for a specific type of filler that involves explaining game mechanics rather than attempting to advance the game state. Something I found that I didn't like about emonis' questions is:

1) yeah thats fairly obvious
2) this one is the big one, it looks to be reaction fishing for roles to get people to act more of a certain way.(again this post only prompted me to want to push on emonis, not actually scumread him, I am not shading him for this, merely throwing out a theory that I based my push on)
3) fairly useless but also NAI and reasonable to say but also can be interpreted as extra filler.

boring not really game related content ahead warning:
I am a mentor on Epicmafia myself, and something I try to get my mentees to do is to try to figure out things on their own and focus on mechanics/situations I see them fail at after its happened. handholding isn't necessary, just play the game. it's a social deduction game. worrying too much about playing the "right" way will just get in the way of helping you win. So essentially I like to go at it at a "need to know" basis. In the interest of the game actually, I'd prefer for a noob to townslip, as it makes the game easier. No need to throw out information before it's needed etc etc.


right now I can feel we can form an early townblock I just need some good participation from everyone first.

i think it doesnt have enough merit to warrant an answer and frankly it hurts my feelings

If this is true I apologize. It was a good way to kick off the game from RVS. Also, the slip could be true.

Something I found that I didn't like about emonis' questions is:

1) yeah thats fairly obvious
2) this one is the big one, it looks to be reaction fishing for roles to get people to act more of a certain way.(again this post only prompted me to want to push on emonis, not actually scumread him, I am not shading him for this, merely throwing out a theory that I based my push on)
3) fairly useless but also NAI and reasonable to say but also can be interpreted as extra filler.

Which question are you referring to?

Also, do you think me or clemency is more scummy right now?

Lastly, in your experience, is there alot of scums who farm "town points" by mech posting?
----------------------------------------------------------

I don't think townblock is a good thing to create purposefully . I feel that it makes people not want to change their townread(Stuck in their town read) and make people defend their townreads more than they should.

I honestly was not thinking about Enomis's reiteration of the scumslip. It was (or at least appeared to me as being) in passing, and was certainly far from the only reason to consider Clemency suspect, and before 63 had not been talked about much at all for 20+ posts. 3 other people were talking about Clemency's behavior. This led me to 64.

Two things were going on. I was trying to reconcile Clemency's behavior in the L-2 situation with the other takes on him in the last page, and I was as of yet unsure on DkKoba and Ydrasse (who had Clemency as scum/town with questions respectively). By questioning Clemency's mafianess then saying I see him as town potentially, I wanted to indicate I was suspicious but not firm enough to push yet, and hopefully provoke more conversation around that particular part. I'm not really sure where you are getting I exonerated Enomis, besides to the extent calling the wagon strange does. I certainly don't think there was implicit or explicit support for the "scumread."

---------------------------

We've talked quite a bit about the L-2, and that it was weird. Let me try to summarize your position: You don't think Clemency was behaving scummy by dipping from the wagon. You've indicated DkKoba is a town lean for you as well. So what is the weird part? Madiusha dropping a second vote on Enomis almost right away?

Hi! I don't know anybody here! I hope we'll get along very soon and have the least amount of replacements possible!

People who vote me are all scums.

For real? Then we better get this wagon started to weed them all out!

VOTE: Enomis

To this point now, I feel that Clemency's behavior just in that section doesn't indicate town in the way you suggested in 374, as I can totally see a scum clemency getting cold feet and pulling back. Like you said, scum want plausible deniability d1.

This is a thick one, so bear with me:

Joqiza tries to imply scum is going to hide outside the first lynch wagon to avoid suspicion, yet he himself hammered Quick, so we already know he wasn't having an honest thought process (why would scum be openly honest, anyway?), and tries to imply scum wants to hedge so they can start discussion between town players and try to imply that is what Apogee is doing. Also tries to imply that Enomis is scummy by constantly bringing up the "scumslip" of Clemency and tries to tie it to Apogee's behavior as if he is "excusing" Enomis' move while trying to shade Clemency. This is the second time Joqiza tries to tie Apogee's alignment to someone else's and it's Enomis of all people again. I feel a strong desire of Joqiza for people to associate Enomis and Apogee's alignment as the same, since he is doing the same thing again.

Apogee answers by trying to un-vinculate himself from Enomis' argument and also argues that he wasn't giving any explicit support towards Enomis' case and he suspected Clemency on his own, which makes me think this interaction might be more indicative of a Joqiza+Enomis scum team? I mean in the sense that Joqiza went to great lengths to make it feel like a scumpair fully knowing Enomis would be the first one to flip because people were more interested to lynch Enomis than Apogee at the moment he posted this. If Enomis really were town and Apogee scum, wouldn't it benefit Apogee to "admit to sheep" and hope association reads carry him through association townread once Enomis is dead later on?

Next that comes is that Apogee makes the promised readlist once he has enough information and shares it with us (730, I tried to quote it here for visiblitiy but his spoilers break mine so I will just link it this time):

Here to note is that Apogee

townreads

Joqiza but adds a caveat that he would be scared of DK+Joqiza scumteam fooling him, which is an idea he'll hammer again later on. He also says he can't read Enomis and posts a consideration of both alignments to it and adds that Enomis pushing DK felt towny to him which I agree on.[/spoiler]

And that's all for the D1 content. Now moving onto D2 posts!

#2306:

Spoiler:

Reading up to here, not a ton to say. Still scumreading votato most. Joqiza I'm having a hard time evaluating because I disagree with the initial logic on his wagon (i.e. the unvote and the quick delayed hammer) in part, but I also realize I might not be evaluating those parts the clearest because of bias, and the last page or two his tone has shifted. Not sure the tone shifts are AI though.

Add me to the list of people who intend to go back and do some re-reads shortly.

Explains he disagrees with the reasons to scumread Joqiza and pushes Votato priority push. It is consistent with his expressed reads, but also kind of disruptive of exploting of Joqiza as a slot like I mentioned before, so while consistency is towntelling, I'm not townreading this disruption. Promises to re-read and there's not much else he says here so we're gonna jump onto the next one already.

#2370:

Spoiler:

Alright I'm kind of wiped out rn so don't expect a ton of deep analysis but here is a handful of joqiza posts that stood out to me. I'll try to do the same thing with other people.

[Joqiza quotes I deleted because they break formatting...]

One big takeaway is unless Joqiza really really planned out excuses I think 275 really limits the merits of the argument against him because of the voting pattern on me.

I'm honestly wary of the push on him right now. Two reasons: 1) the end of day vote thing doesn't read as bad to me as it does to most of you and 2) while his tone has changed, I'm not sure it is AI (for much the same reasons Madiusha's tone changes were not neccesarily AI). I'm also pretty convinced he is not scumbuddies with votato. I want to delve more into the casework on scumpairs but that also has to wait. And I suppose most people now have 1+ scumread in the people pushing on him which is eh.

Votato, I know I owe you an argument on you. You're next for a mini-iso.

DkKoba, I know you have personal stuff going on right now (and wish you the best in that regard) but I'd like to see where you are going on Ydrasse.

I'll try to answer some questions and do another one of these tonight.

Joqiza's claim is probably not AI? It's premature but don't see it necessarily leaning one way or another.

Excuses Joqiza's behavior because reaction he thinks his passing mention of site meta is towntelling enough. Argues that the reaction is not necessarily AI (which is true, but I don't think it was one of the main reasons for the push) and pushes the idea that Joqiza and Votato can't be scumbuddies but doesn't bring reasons as of yet. The idea that he is so certain that this is true is concerning considering town!Apogee can't know Votato's alignment and Joqiza had the hammer vs L-1 Votato and Quick the previous turn and he chose not to hammer Votato. How does Apogee have the convinction that Joqiza didn't save Votato this early onto D2? I'm not sure if he really wanted to defuse the Joqiza wagon desperately or if he was more tunneled on Votato than I was.

#2410:

Spoiler:

OK possible pairings for votato:


DkKoba: Don't see it. Earlier on conflict felt real, also don't think he is scum anyways.
Enomis: Outside possibility but unlikely. Could be some distancing earlier but nothing about interactions suggest a pairing.
Madiusha. Most unlikely to be pair in my opinion. EOD and start of the day today the conflict felt too real. Also, she was the only one on his wagon. I've suggested before how risky it would be to do that.

Onto the more interesting:

Joqiza. I could be convinced. I honestly don't find his actions today super scummy, but the tone shift is mildly concerning. Put off by the fact that almost certainly one person on his wagon is scum as well. Interesting interaction with votato in 1805 that could be setting up distancing earlier however if the "safe delay" crowd on the lynch is right.

Ydrasse: Ok I think there is real merit to this scumpair, but what I am concerned by is the lack of a case imo for overall scumminess, which is why I have been asking DkKoba and Joqiza about thier votes there. Here are all the posts where Votato mentions or quotes Ydrasse in a substantive manner:

[Deleted quotes once again... sorry...]

Obviously the vast majority of this is NAI. However, a few things stand out.

1) Ydrasse is a townlock to votato. The fact votato props her up quite a bit, often subtly
2) His suggestion Ydrasse and I should form/are a townblock
3) Hints of mild distancing early on turning to more outright support later
4) More interaction between the slots in the latter half of the game

I'm not 100% certain, and Ydrasse would 100% be the second lynch I'd advocate for, and ofc I want to hear a defense and more arguments about Ydrasse's inherent scuminess. I'll probably look at that next.

I'm a bit concerned about this post because I think it engages in contradiction with post 2370. In that post, Apogee says he doesn't buy the Joqiza wagon due to not thinking his tone shift is necessarily AI, but in this one, he says Joqiza's tone shift is "mildly concerning". I would like for Apogee to answer me how his opinion on the matter changed so radically in 40 posts, especially considering we are talking about an emotional state and not an argument that evolved, so I want to give him the time to answer properly what was his progression.

This is the end of Apogee-Joqiza interactions. Please do check my comments inside the spoiler tags and tell me what you think about these. Next I will do the same with Enomis, but I'm honestly exhausted right now, so please allow me to postpone it for now.

[Maduisha]

@Apogee, if you don't have time to explore it all during the day (which is understandable) I have particular interest in you addressing my point in the spoiler under post 2410 which is the point that has struck me the most as strange. Take time to address anything else that concerns you as well, but I think sorting that out would be priority.

[Maduisha]

Enomis:

Things I see as

scummy

:

- I feel conflicted about the lack of engagement even if I just said I townread it. While it seems genuine to me, at the same time I feel this could be a strategy he adopted to hide when he saw the game was really fast paced and pages got cluttered quickly? Lack of participation is generally scumsided even if it comes from town, but it seemed so genuine that I'm not sure. I'm gonna note it down in both alignment sections because it's driving me crazy and I don't want it oversighted.

- Death tunnel on DkKoba. Why is this scummy? And how dare I bring it up after I death tunneled Votato myself? Well, simply because... DkKoba is dead and nobody lynched him. I thought about it and it can be that Enomis found DK to be the strongest town player and that's why he was adamant on getting them killed one way or another? And they threatened to insta-vote Enomis if left alive. Maybe he wanted to make sure it didn't really happen?

- Was really, really engaged in exploring Joqiza D2 when we began voting him and asked him questions about the legitimacy of his reads and chased him about avoiding questions, but did not join the wagon at all even though it was not al L-1 when he was pressuring him this much. I would normally townread this engagement with him but the lack of a vote makes it feel like a pressureless show and it actually has me pondering if there was a motive behind that.

NAI

stuff:

- Positioning in wagons:
D1: Voting Votato (Quick is lynched)
D2: Not voting (Joqiza is lynched)
D3: Voting Votato (Votato is lynched)

This has both good and bad connotations, so I don't know where to put it, so it stays in the NAI section. Participated only in 1 mislynch, did not vote the person he was pressuring D2 that was later confirmed as scum.[/spoiler]

This is all I've seen for now, feel free to pick it apart and give your opinion and tell me if I'm being biased or what.

I am not sure what exactly to respond to this.

Did you think of Dkkoba as a strong player? How and why?

tbh, I was not anywhere close to wanting to lynch joqiza day 2 before Ydrasse claimed. I was just scumleaning him for his "why me" kind of post and wanted to figure out his alignment. But not super strong. Also, I didn't really buy your's and ydrasse argument at all. So that's that.

-----------

Also, I was voting DkKoba d3, not votato. Votato was my strongest townread.

------------

Is your townread of Apogee only investment at this point in this? Do you feel investment is strong enough for you to townread a person in lylo?

I thought they were strong in the sense that transparency of reads lets one easily see the thought process behind wagon jumping, which eases exploring slots for everyone if they choose to buy the pressure or not.

You not wanting to lynch Joqiza until the guilty is fair, however as I said before, a vote does not imply anyone gets lynched. You were pursuing Joqiza for your own reasons and not the arguments others were bringing up, I get that. However, not using your vote in a situation in which you want to pressure the person you're addressing is slightly concerning and also part of the reason why I scumread Joqiza in the first place. He was not at L-1 when you began pressuring him, which means your vote would not kill him and the person that tunneled him the most (me) had already voted so you wouldn't possibly fear lolhammer, did you? What I'm trying to say is, not buying our arguments doesn't mean you shouldn't vote him too if you had different concerns. The only running wagons were on him and your biggest townread, so pressuring him with a vote would have made sense, I think.

Also yes, you are correct. Sorry, I mixed up names when reading votecounts. It's still NAI information, I think... you participated in 0 lynches (no townies and no scum).

No, I think I laid out my other reasons to townread him already in my previous posts, but I've also brought arguments for/against him because I don't want to rule anyone easily in lylo. I would be grateful if you checked them out... (yes, I know it's painful to go through so much text, I'm sorry).

[Maduisha]

I agree that everything can be wifom, Enomis. But I think we should all admit that seeing an argument someone makes as wifom or not, and seeing the night kill as wifom are

very

different things because the argument from person X can come from scum or not, but the NK comes

100%

from scum and it's usually weaponized so town reads too much into it and trap themselves.

If you want to discuss it regardless to support the rest of your argument, I am not opposed. I'm just saying I don't want to base my final decision on it (like, clearing someone through the night kill implications or voting someone due to the same).

This is why I am doing night kill analysis. Because you and apogee(Who outright voice his disdain of WIFOM) in day 3, makes me feel like scum is just night killing to put himself/herself in the best position today not caring much about WIFOM. The state of mafia now is that everyone park things to wifom, it was the same in my other newbie game.

But each to his/her own.

But you do realize that this argument holds no water, right? There cannot be two scums right now, only one. If there is only one, then they cannot possibly hope to read the mind of the other townie that isn't you (I'm assuming town!You for the sake of your argument) and bring up the same wifom argument, right? They cannot possibly plan to use this as strategy if nobody buys it and they cannot possibly know if others will or will not.

As I said, feel free to use the NK to support your argument because I think it could be interesting to see where you're standing right now, but arguing that saying the NK is wifom is scum strategy seems disingenuous for us two considering only you think it's not necessarily wifom. And like I said, it's information that comes 100% from scum, I think it's fair to assume they're weaponizing it.

[Maduisha]

I understand not seeing Joqiza as scummy until the guilty proved you wrong, I'm not accusing you of not suspecting him. I'm just noting down the fact that people wanted to explore his wagon before the guilty was out and you expressed discomfort in the fact that it was not Votato who got wagoned at day start. A wagon doesn't mean a lynch must happen, so that's why exploration of other options is important, and this was the first time Joqiza was pressured at all, while Votato had gotten to L-1 already the day prior. It confuses me that you'd reject exploring and that's why I included it in the scummy part, but I get it can also come from town stubbornness.

A big reason why I thought that scum was either DkKoba/Apogee was because both of them tried to steer the lynch away from Joqiza by going to votato which most likely, would have gotten through if not for the cop claim guilty.

What do you think about this?

It's one of the points I have brought up in my considering about a scum!Apogee scenario and I am awaiting his response to my suspicion about 2410, because he went from "let's go back to Votato" while arguing Joqiza's tone shift isn't necessarily scummy to saying it's concerning sometime later when the argument got more traction and I would like to know what was he thinking at the time to make this switch.