NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Save The Dragons]

Oh man I'm super excited to start. But it's been a long time...I barely remember how to play.

Clearly suspicious retaliatory Vote: Untrod Tripod

[Save The Dragons]

LML: I was sad when you didn't vote for yourself. I totally would have.

Oh man, who's number 14? It's himself! hee hee...

[Save The Dragons]

What the heck is up with the whiteout votes?

VOTE: Oh. Hey. I figured it out.

That's actually kind of cool. It must make it easier to see the votes as long as no one abuses this.

[Save The Dragons]

Your avatar scares me.

[Save The Dragons]

Careful. If your finger of suspicion gets too close to my inner monologue, you'd be picking my brain.

[Save The Dragons]

Although, I still find starting with day instead of night somewhat odd.

It's weird but I kind of like it...it's no fun getting killed night 1 especially for a game you really want to play.

UNVOTE: whatever
VOTE: MafiaSSK

[Save The Dragons]

this game is harder than I remembered.

I like this one the best now.

Unvote, Vote Seol

[Save The Dragons]

unvote, Vote: undo

If you're going to pick up on any one thing in this discussion, that seems like a weird one.

[Save The Dragons]

Awwww yeah there's that terse, several paragraph posting I remember.

Wait, how are you literally seeing anything scummy from that post? This looks like such a piss poor excuse for a vote.

Why, I'm so glad you asked. Tbh I was waiting for undo to come back and say something but what the hell.

And now, STD presents: an abridged history of the game so far!
There was a wagon on Glork: I think this was just random.
There was a wagon on Tigris: against the rhetoric that 3rd vote on a wagon is scum.
There was a wagon on MafiaSSK: because of that third vote and post 45 and stuff
There was a wagon on Seol: because of (well, I like him for scum because of opportunistic wagon jumping. I'll get to this further.)

So that's 4 wagons. There's a lot of votes in between. Other stuff happens. And MafiaSSK says this:

When did Shanba sign up for this?

Any chance there could be an actual opinion coming from you, ABR?

FoS:ABR

That's an odd thing to say, considering this could possibly apply to several people in the game. I guess it depends on how satisfied you are with people saying things like "XXXX = townread," "not feeling XXX," and whether someone's vote would qualify as an opinion. To be fair, I suppose it would, but I wasn't thinking about that at the time. I was thinking about players like Dripping Goofball, Cogito Ergo Sum, that Save The Dragons jerkface, Untrod Tripod, etc, and of course just one posts people: MrBuddyLee, oh hey undo, who have given little to no explanation for their opinions.

It seemed to me like you were trying to stir the hornet's nest for some reason, but not commit to it. The jury is still out on you, but I think it unlikely you are scum for a reason I'll get to later.

Then undo comes along. He blazes over the (again to be fair, only 3 legitimate) wagons and his eyes narrow to the aforementioned post like a teenage boy starting at a pair of boobies and having the rest of the world just dissapear around him.

So why is his vote still in the RVS? Perhaps I just want him to elaborate on his motives.

Now here's the tricky part:

MafiaSSK (6) -- Tigris, Save the Dragons, petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons }
is highly likely to be opportunistic mafia. You can toss LoudMouthLee in there for the FOS.

I started that list at petroleumjelly because it was his reasoning that seemed to get people on board, less so Tigris's. Thus that leaves Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons, and LoudMouthLee. I believe one of them is likely to be mafia.

Thus I would be down with lynching any one of those people. At this point of the game I will be willing to join any of these wagons.

But rather than just sit tight on Seol, I was kind of hoping to swing my sweaty vote around and put pressure on people because

Hmm...1 to 2 scum in a 22 person town just seems imba...

[Save The Dragons]

To sum up, both wagons are 'meh' to me and I'd really rather look into other players (this should also address STD's disquiet).

If this is true, why is your vote still on your choice of random vote?

Up until this point, your only opinion was that Albert should be more opinionated.

If anyone else is interested in turning the heat up on undo, let me know, otherwise I'm going back to Seol.

undo: vote: undo, redo: vote: Seol

wait, that's not right.

Unvote: undo, Vote: Seol

[Save The Dragons]

Am I doing it right?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not going to lie, I'm really eager/scared to see who makes VitaminR's list of "weak" players.

In any case I'm not feeling VitaminR. Honestly I wish I were because then I could be all like

HE'S LEADING US ALONG!

[Save The Dragons]

tbh I'm more curious about the list because I want to know what PJ hopes to accomplish with it.

I need to find something to do while I'm waiting for specific people to respond.

[Save The Dragons]

I think we need some more Seolvotes.

Do it. It's good for the soul.

[Save The Dragons]

I don't recall you being quite this amusing Dragons, but then again has been a few years.

I do find it slightly interesting that you are looking at the later players on mafia's bandwagon, but not a similar examination of the other two bandwagons that reached 6. I'm positive that you'll reply in detail whether I ask for it or not...

You asked for it!

...or not...

Glork reached 6, but I assume you're not talking about that since that was ridiculous.
The wagon on that Tigris person had a lot of this

What up my glipglops!

vote: tigris

and a little of this

unvote vote Tigris

choo choo!

and I think there was this

Vote tigris

As I'm working on this, UT popped up and decided to play oldschool now so it's really hard for me to comment on his previous posts when he keeps posting. MrBuddyLee for all I know was using his "free random first" vote to jump on the Tigris wagon. Not sure what to think of chamber yet. To be fair I am biased towards older playstyle, I know that people who did things like "vote: x end of post" were usually hounded (by me if not others. *shakes fist at PeaceBringer/BabyJesus/others*) Since then I have accepted that it's part of meta and at times I have tried to adopt that playstyle. But I like to fucking write so that bottle came out of the genie...or...something like that.

What was the point?

In my opinion, I felt that that while erroneous, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read. I also don't really know what a glipglop is.

The MafiaSSK wagon started with you (Tigris) voting for the reasoning that got you wagoned. I hopped on board mostly due to the OMGUS-y response. I think PJ's vote is justified.
I feel like Seol just basically wrote out what PJ was implying. I feel like Porochaz just basically wrote out what PJ was implying. I feel like GC just basically wrote what PJ was implying. I think LML just quoted pj, then said why he though Tigris was suspicious, then added an FOS. There's nothing wrong with chiming in and adding your own opinion, but it would certainly be easy for scum to be like "PJ's right! bam!"

I mention this again (I guess in a little greater detail) because I suspect at least one of those 5 people of begin scum, probably Seol, possibly LML, least likely PJ. I haven't really turned an eye to see who's on the Seol wagon and why. Excuse me a moment. ... I seem to recall that CES has determined from his first post that Seol is scum. I'm still not sure what to make of chamber. I suspect Sotty and Shanba had similar reasons for voting Seol as I did.

Well, I think that's all of them. I encourage you all to vote for Seol. Or LML. Or if you wanna go punk and really piss off your parents by being non-conformist, I wouldn't mind going after undo.

[Save The Dragons]

UNVOTE: MafiaSSK

I don't want my vote there anymore.

Why not and where do you want it?

[Save The Dragons]

which I guess is similar, but I just want to make it clear

like I said in the earlier post, I'm trying to get back into my older, wordier playstyle. the kids today like "^scum" type posts more than long explanations. you know how it is.

I wanna see who steps in it.

scum V

[Save The Dragons]

pretty much.

[Save The Dragons]

STD, I don't think you can actually just dismiss the Glork wagon.

VOTE: Glork

I never trusted your proficiency.

VOTE: Glork

I never trusted your proficiency.

Vote: Glork

I can't believe he hasn't caught any scum yet. Clearly one of them.

Glork wagon is best wagon, obviously.

VOTE: Glork

Good things invariably happen when Glork gets waggoned.

Vote: Glork

If you want the town to win, vote Glork.

Vote: Glrok

(Seol is totes scum though.)

vote glork

Weasel Mafia.

1. joke
2. joke
3. joke
4. joke
5. seems disinterested. I'm not sure why he thinks Seol is scum at this point in the game, but it seems like he's jumping on Glork as a lark.
6. i dunno what weasel mafia is supposed to mean.

Unless it's more like

1. joke
2. joke
3. serious belief that 21 posts into the game glork is the best wagon
4. joke
etc...

Perhaps I don't take much credence from the RVS. I'm not seeing it. I really kind of expected this kind of behavior, especially early day 1. And even if I did, any one of those 6 people could hide behind "oh haha day1 rvs funtimes string up glork yay happyfun." Thus scum or town could be on that wagon, I can't tell.

But a real nail in his coffin? Is his most recent post and the complete and utter buddying that goes on with CTD:

What does he have to gain by buddying with CTD, if they are both scum?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not going to lie, I'm really eager/scared to see who makes VitaminR's list of "weak" players.

In any case I'm not feeling VitaminR. Honestly I wish I were because then I could be all like

HE'S LEADING US ALONG!

Haha, somebody remembers that song!

The (I think) first time I played with you I random voted you for that reason and I think your response was something like *headbangs*

[Save The Dragons]

Yeah, sure all of that behavior might be expected during Day 1, but it's the way that the behavior is implemented that I think is actually really telling. It's when scum is least prepared to put on whatever face they will. It's when you get to see the basis of the playstyle that they'll carry over. Did you not see this in my post? Do you disagree with my analysis?

I pretty much believe the exact opposite of everything you think about the glork wagon.

[Save The Dragons]

- Vitamin's response to Yosarian in Post 167, which explains how Vitamin acts when scum, reads as if Vitamin is outright explaining why he acted the way he did in this game. That is: (1) Vitamin-scum is "overly concerned with 'leaving a paper trail,'" (2) "One of the ways of <leaving a paper trail> can be to leave a FOS or to call out a specific post, so you can refer back to it later when you actually switch your vote," and (3) in Post 65, Vitamin left a paper trail for developing suspicions of all of the MafiaSSK voters, while targeting one in particular (LML).
- Although I recognize Sotty reacted in a similar way as Vitamin (Post 58), her particular word usage is more than a difference in degree: it looks like Sotty is saying that she finds the reasons for voting MafiaSSK were bad, whereas Vitamin is saying that he finds the voters voting MafiaSSK were bad/scummy.

How would you compare this to how I have categorized the voters on MafiaSSK's wagon?

[Save The Dragons]

VitaminR:
"Feels like a bunch of strong players

going for an easy target

."

STD:
"highly likely to be

opportunistic

mafia."

The bold is equivalent, the only difference (just from the quoted texts) that is immediately visible to me is I said "mafia" where he said "strong players". I suspect that mafia was implied.

If there is some suspicion with the way he chooses to use the phrase "strong players" then that would be the difference I see. But I'm not exactly sure what's ticking people off about that.

tbh I'm more curious about the list because I want to know what PJ hopes to accomplish with it.

Do you think his rationale is comparable to yours?

Other than that (and to be perfectly fair, VitaminR's discussion on LML's meta that I cannot vouch for nor particularly care about) ...yes?

[Save The Dragons]

Ah. I see the difference now.

[Save The Dragons]

Yeah I don't really feel like reading the thread.

But then you'll miss out on all the

annoying, banal, and totally not

funny stuff I said...

Honestly, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about that RV-wagon theory, but you just keep on coming out with some outlandish reasonings I frankly wouldn't expect from an oldie.

A thousand points* to whomever can point out the giant red flag in this sentence.

Since I'm not a mind reader

yet mwa ha ha

here would be my guess:

Burdened by Proficiency

The fun part is that Seol plays the "he's either stupid or scum" card too:

Because it favours scum. Either you're wrong or you're scum (with an inclusive or), and in a game full of experienced players, I give less credence to being wrong.

One of the broad generalizations I remember from my time here is that on day 1 people often lynched a pro-town player because people were arguing against the theory of what they said. Intent > content.

I'm going to go one step further from a previous statement and say there is very little that MafiaSSK has posted that I agree with.

Swimming past the bullshit

that is just a gross metaphor. Let me try again.

Putting aside all the fanfare, I suspect that MafiaSSK's actions are efforts to find scum.

But it's just so weird! MafiaSSK basically says we should all vote for Glork to gain information and then votes for Tigris for starting a different bandwagon, thus starting a different bandwagon.

If MafiaSSK turns out to be scum, it also kind of ruins my theory that scum decided to parrot PJ (or is PJ) and jump on the wagon.

I don't like the Seol bandwagon.

I'd be more than happy to join the LML wagon if you could explain why he's a better choice than Seol.

I also really want to know who the villains are (for my own curiosity, not for anything game related). I think there's a ton of villains that I've met over my time that are absent from this game.

[Save The Dragons]

oh but I don't know if I'm ready. my body's saying yes, but my heart is saying yes...

Wait a minute.

Vote: LML

[Save The Dragons]

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons }
is highly likely to be opportunistic mafia. You can toss

LoudMouthLee

in there for the FOS.

[Save The Dragons]

I also kind of want to know how he feels about my rational for chasing after undo.

[Save The Dragons]

I refrained from doing so for a reason. I gave you the answer that was behind my reaction to the MafiaSSK wagon (strong at theory, with reputations = you, Seol, LML; not so = MafiaSSK, Tigris). I don't see how it's a useful exercise for me to say who I think isn't that good at mafia. (Not that I even really have particular people in mind.)

@ PJ:
I know that it might defeat the purpose of asking your question, but I'm really not sure what you hope to accomplish by having him target out "weak" vs. "strong" players.

I'm also super jealous that you haven't asked me a question yet.

This is insulting. If you don't want to read the game, please replace out. There are others who would be happy to take your slot.

Natirasha is a new-school player, that's just what they do. I guess he's going through culture shock here. Amirite Nati? ;D

Back in my day, as I was joining mafiascum.net and waving to one of the dinosaurs outside my window because dinosaurs ruled the earth (seriously. A lot of people don't know the Jurassic Park movies are actually documentaries) when we replaced in, we took the time to read the entire thread, even if it was tens of pages long. And our posts weren't just one liners, we were pretty monstrous about our verbosity. The first dozen pages of this game are pretty tame.

Go on. We'll wait for you.

I'm actually only half-joking when I say that wagoning Glork is good for the town.

Why half-joking?

I love being town. Figuring stuff out is fun. Dissecting arguments, finding motivations, skewering liars, etc. It's a great time.

Have you actually done any of that?

I think he has you there, UT.

[Save The Dragons]

StD has tried to right the coattails of not 1,

Hey, I was on that MafiaSSK bandwagon before it was cool, not on the coattails. And to continue this unfortunate hipster comparison, I jumped off when it became popular. Popular with scum! Ohhhhh!

not 2, but *3* different wagons on day one

You are right. I totally did not give any warning as to why I wanted to jump onto

Oh wait!

Post 113 kinda sorta basically definately spills my guts as to why I think that LML and Seol bandwagons are awesome. If there was a Green Crayons or Porrochaz wagon at the time, I'd have considered it. Did I write a scathing expose on all those people? No, you're right. I simply saw what I believe to be a tell and I've run with it. I suppose if you ignore the fact that I accused several people of a scumtell because I thought they were being scummy, I can understand how it may look like I'm just sitting here,

without truly doing any sort of scumhunting at all.

yeah, yeah, but...

unvote, Vote: undo

If you're going to pick up on any one thing in this discussion, that seems like a weird one.

I'm voting undo...for funzies? Because I secretly have a crush on undo and want to get his attention but don't know how? That arrow avatar is pretty dreamy...

I'll admit that statement I made wasn't exactly the most transparently clear of statements. And it's such a shame I never clarified what I meant.

Oh wait!

Post 113 kinda sorta basically definately spills my guts as to why I think undo's lack of commitment is suspicious.

Did...you...even read post 113?

Clearly not, because in your post storm of quoting me, (which for some reason includes my random vote and also seems to utterly miss any posts that have content in them) you missed this one:

I also kind of want to know how he feels about my rational for chasing after undo.

(the he is you).

Did...you...even read any of my posts?

Although I would expect this from someone like AbR or DGB, StD's meta doesn't seem to corroborate this.

Okay now I'm just curious. What is my meta?

What is the meta from how I played this game 5 and a half years ago? Damn, now I feel sad, I had to research how long I've been off of the site. I was...let's see...20. Wow. When I think of all the alcohol that's passed through me from that date to this, it's astounding. I've had a girlfriend and had that end, I visited 2 countries, have been a student at 5 different schools, had 3 jobs, wrote 5 novels, but, no...you're right. I'm sure I play exactly the same.

[Save The Dragons]

DGB and Albert also feel like they're playing within their normal day 1 pro-town meta, leaning town on both of them.

?
Both of them have metas that take little effort to fake.

2.)

In response to VitaminR's Post 249, my concern is that you are drawing a poor distinction between strong and weak players in an invitational game filled with players who have generally each been playing mafia for over five years. I do not plan on underestimating players.

Even assuming I

did

believe there are a few "weak" players in the game, then if a "weak" player is scum, pretty much the only way they are going to get lynched is if they are attacked by the other "strong" players.

But I take it you also think there are only a few "strong" players? Mind sharing who

those

are, if you are not willing to divulge who you think the "weak" players are?

I'm not convinced that your insistence on following this line of questioning is helpful. To me it seems more like an attempt to damn VitaminR/cause chaos. I feel like he's answered your question, or even if he hasn't (in your mind) I not sure what you're expecting him to say.

I don't particularly like the fact that what LML has accused me of I have rebutted and I get no kind of response other than "I still think he's scum." Tbh i'm having trouble separating the emotional "What? I'm not scum! How dare yee!" part of things.

Post 316 is pretty much an amazing post.

294 is somewhat informative towards your headstate, MBL, but methinks the mike drop was a little premature.

I also have no idea what a Travlorkian is.

I will answer your question, though!

@STD

, your belief that MafiaSSK is town is the lynchpin of your worldview. Can you please explain why you're so certain he's town?

I'm not certain he's town.

At the time, I saw a behavior I found suspicious. It seemed to me that a group of people regurgitated the same reasoning and hoped on a wagon.

This only makes sense if MafiaSSK is town. If he's scum, then that means a bunch of people saw PJ's justification and bam bam bam bam laid down the hurt on MafiaSSK.

In fact, if we found out MafiaSSK's alignment, I suspect it would either confirm my suspicion or work to dispel it (I don't know if scum would be so eager to hop on a partner's wagon).

This, of course, is before finds a ton of evidence on the glork wagon (which seems more like an attempt to legitimize his stance), calls CTD's random vote damning evidence and connects CES to CTD as scum partners because CES needed to inform CTD about chamber's alignment.

I still think he's town, I think his arguments seem both equivocal and genuine. That being said, I may have erred in the sense that I clung to this "worldview" while ignoring other possibilities.

[Save The Dragons]

@STD

, why is the FOS on SSK the "bam" that you found most suspicious?

I have one vote. Regardless of the person I find the most suspicious I'm not sure I have to put my vote on the one that I find the most suspicious.

What's changed since you posted:

I suspect at least one of those 5 people of begin scum,

probably

Seol,

possibly

LML

You said you needed to be persuaded:

(to Albert)I'd be more than happy to join the LML wagon if you could explain why he's a better choice than Seol.

But rather than wait for Albert's response, you jumped ship when UT gave you reason "gut" and gave you some cover to switch.

I don't know who amongst the legendary set of names I listed is scum. Hell, for all I know I suck at this game and they're all town.

I think wagons lead to information. If people were more interested in putting pressure on LML, I was more than happy to join. My statement to ABR was a misguided effort to get some rationale from him. I am curious what it was LML did that Seol did not do (or the other way around) since from my vantage point I think they're likely to be scum for the same reasons. It would have been nice to hear a reply but I wasn't really going to hold my breath.

I think suggesting that UT's post suddenly convinced me that LML is teh scummiest of teh scums is a bit of a stretch.

Sup.

Still waiting for a mike drop worthy post.

[Save The Dragons]

DAMN YOU TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGERS!

Tirgis is fine.

[Save The Dragons]

[*]UT has been on 3 of the major bandwagons, the most out of any player (tied with StD)

Unvote, Vote: Zorblag

I'm number 1!

If you would call the MafiaSSK wagon the VI wagon, the player who was on the most wagons AND the VI wagon was StD. I'm still okay with EITHER of them.

It's easy to ignore the fact I was on MafiaSSK before it was wagon-worthy if you ignore the fact that I was on MafiaSSK before it was wagon worthy. If you want to get technical, I was the second vote, but since I have not yet received that real magic mail-order crystal ball I purchased (6 easy payments of $19.95!) it would be remiss to suggest that I was oppurtunistic. But since you seem to ignore the fact that I was on MafiaSSK before it was wagon-worthy, I don't know why I didn't just save my wrists the hundred or so words closer they now are to metacarpal tunnel syndrome.

I do actually agree with you that the Nat wagon was an easy way to pile on votes, but I also think chamber's right and if the scum were expecting a lynch from that they're fooling themselves.

----

Zorblag is town.

Since he was observing the game as town, all he has to do is dump his suspicions and it looks like he's made a big contribution. If he's scum, it takes 5 minutes to edit if he's nailed his scum partners, and that's even if he wants to. He certainly doesn't have to.

Since he included his replacee in his assessment, it is clear to me he made these notes with a town mindset (before he replaced). Now he has a pro-town artifact that may or may not be damning to scum.

His barf post, while an interesting read, does little to tell us about his alignment. I suppose if he were scum he could have not posted it, but I don't really see a reason not to.

----

Not really. When someone has a meta of making short, declarative statements about who is town or scum without explaining, it can actually make them easier to read; you just have to look at the timing of the statements and figure out why they're making them at those moments and what they're trying to do. The key is to not try to look at the posts in isolation; it's to look at them in context.

Since scum know who the town are, doesn't it make it easier to say XXXXX is town when you're scum?

If we're just going to get into a theory-based argument where we end up having a differing of opinions I'm willing to shut up about this, but see my above comment about DGB.

I find myself disagreeing with much of what Yos says this game. This is a little upsetting.

I do too. This reminds me of something I was stewing on before the Great Tiger Attack of 2014...

I'm getting some weird vibes off of Undo's posting so far this game. Kind of wishy-washy. Kisses up to everyone in first post, votes DGB "as homage". ? Says MafiaSSK's post #45 " doesn't look right", but then hedges that read, and doesn't vote. Takes off random vote on DGB without voting anyone else. Then later votes SSK.

fos:Undo

Posting and voting pattern so far looks overly cautious.

While I completely agree with the last sentence, the more I read into the argument between them, the less I like it.

In general, your play thus far looked overly cautious for day 1, like you were trying extra hard to stay on good terms with everyone. If there's any point at all to random voting, it's to try to create pressure or get something moving early in the game, but you placed your random vote in such a way as to make sure it didn't create any pressure, and the you dropped it without explaining why and without voting anyone else, at a time when no one else was voting DGB.

Dropping a random vote without explaining why is suspicious? This entire section seems like a stretch.

You seemed to imply that you thought SSK was suspicious, but would rather vote for nobody then vote for him

You are referring to my post 115, where I

never

implied I thought SSK was suspicious. When I said "it didn't look right to me", I was saying I didn't agree with his theory -- his theory didn't look right to me -- but that defending one controversial theory about RVS was not enough for me to find him scummy.

Point goes to undo.

you then voted for him eventually, but you seemed hesitant to do so, and joined the wagon fairly late. (In fact, i would say that SSK actually looked less scummy when you voted him then he did when you declined to do so)

Just to make it clear, in your view, CES saying "I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point" right after CTD's posts (and even though CTD didn't make it clear he thought chamber was obvscum) is a

discreet way

of showing agreement to a scum partner.

I'm not sure what to think about MafiaSSK, but I think the whole magic CTD-CES connection made him look worse.

----

I also really don't like anything about this:

7.)

I need both of you to trust me. Right now, okay? Please just work with me here, and I promise I will explain everything later, okay?

FoS: Albert B. Rampage

. May switch my vote soon.

1.)

Why did you feel the need to telegraph a potential vote change?

I originally had switched my vote while writing my post, but as I pared it down I downgraded to a FoS. Albert B. Rampage's post was so outrageously out of place that I could see myself just switching my vote the next morning even without more content being added.

Given Albert B. Rampage was apparently just quoting something, the FoS is retracted.

I don't follow why this wasn't just a vote, considering with nothing new changing you were willing to vote. If you wanted to keep pressure on MafiaSSK, why would you switch (with no new content), and if you didn't, why wouldn't you?

I'll admit it was a silly thing for ABR to say. But it was said in a rapidfire of weird posts (that I didn't get the reference to either). If you think he was faking breadcrumbing a power role, for instance, it seems like a weird way to go about it, especially when there was only a little pressure his way.

----

The way I see it, bandwagoning is the only way we can lynch scum. With 12 votes to lynch, I need to agree with 11 other people. With several scum out there, if I elect to vote for people I think are more likely to be scum, that gives me, in my opinion, a better chance of lynching the scum.

I plan on jumping on bandwagons this game, not on random people, but on people I find suspicious.

So here's my list of people as of this moment.

Would vote
4) Untrod Tripod
6) DrippingGoofball
8) undo
11) Petroleumjelly
14) LoudmouthLee
20) Yosarian2
21) Seol

Might vote
2) Porochaz
3) CrashtextDummie
5) MrBuddyLee
12) Cogito Ergo Sum
13) MafiaSSK
16) Green Crayons
15) Albert B. Rampage
17) Zorblag (replacing Natirasha, who replaced farside22)
22) Tigris

Won't vote
1) Chamber
7) Shanba
9) Sotty7
10) Glork
18) VitaminR

Vote: PJ

If later in the day we all decide to lynch LML, please, please, please don't be surprised if I jump on that wagon hardcore.

[Save The Dragons]

Also, frankly, declaring this many people town as scum is likely to screw you over in the long run. It's not a good scum strategy to have as many town reads as she does, because you'll probably have to go back on some of them eventually in order to get enough lynches to win.

If in her next post she decides that Zorblarg is now scum without sufficient explanation I would be miffed. If on Day 5 she decides that Zorblarg or anyone else she's declared to be town as scum, I don't really see it as damning.

Time will tell.

Maybe it's more a theory dispute then anything, but random votes are there both to generate pressure

Douchy question: do they really?
Better question: have they in this game?

and because it's theoretically better to lynch someone at random then to lynch no one at all;

Do random votes often/ever lead to a lynch?

you don't drop them for no reason, you drop it if you have somewhere better to put your vote, or maybe if you think the person you're voting for looks town.

I was about to bark at you some more, but I assume that you are suggesting that not voting anyone is scummier than unvoting a random vote.

What's the difference between STD and VitR?

One's a disease and one's medicine?

I was completely fine with Zor's entrance into the game until I read STD's reasoning for voting him and the pretty excellent point of including his own slot in his run down. Not quite willing to condemn Zor for it, but also not willing to put him directly in the town pile like I was going to.

For full disclosure, I was voting him as a joke to jump onto yet another bandwagon. I think Zor's post is not very telling of his alignment and I am concerned about people who saw the wall of text and read it as town. For fuller disclosurer, CES's post helped me come to that conclusion (but since CES's post is public record I fail to see why others wouldn't).

My vote is on PJ.

[Save The Dragons]

@MBL: Besides the fact that Sotty's ait, (I'm assume you mean that she seems pro-town, not ait at like cooking or shooting people or something), any thoughts?

----

(shrug) Not very often.

Yes! I got a (shrug) from Yos! All I need is a question from PJ and I get meta bingo!

----

I just have a pet peeve with people who think there's a "random vote phase" where you vote people for no reason and then you drop the vote later for no reason. If you're going to random vote, you should have a theory/strategy reason for why you're doing it, it shouldn't just be because it's what the cool kids do.

Pretty much exactly how I treat RVS. Usually the vote is dropped, imo, because a better target is found. Replace "it's what the cool kids do" with "nothing better to do" and you pretty much have my understanding of it.

I dunno. Like when MafiaSSK tried to convince me there was magic on the RVS glork wagon it looks like someone trying to attribute scumminess when it's not there. MafiaSSK's play this game has pretty much been exagerating everything. You, on the other hand, look like you're trying strawman an argument to put blame on undo.

----

Oh! That's cool, Yos! Find an inconsistency and call it protown? That's the weirdest thing you may have ever said.

To be perfectly honest, while we are both suspicious of undo for similar reasons, I couldn't look at yos's attack on him without my rusty, cobweb-infested scumdar going ping!. I am more perturbed by his ignoral of events. If I recall correctly, he spent most of the first part of the game not really voting anyone and has since spent a lot of time arguing with chamber, etc., not really doing much.

Yos, in my opinion, built a shoddy argument. I'm not really that satisfied with his response, so I'm willing to vote him if the tides turn that way, but I'm holding off for now because there are better targets and I'm worried I'm spending too much time debating theory with him.

Yos attacking undo doesn't clear undo but it does make me wonder.

----

I'm still pretty happy with PJ. The whole "weak" vs. "strong" doesn't sit well with me. The other problem is the whole ABR thing. I completely agree that "give me X days" or "trust me" is a scum tell. A lesser point is that there was more going on there, it wasn't just that. It was clear ABR was doing something weird (which turns out to be quoting Breaking Bad). If it were just that, I'd leave it alone. But the greater point is that he played chicken with his vote.

On the other hand, I'm not particularly enthused by LscumL's sudden decision that he wants to build cases on his targets when he targets PJ.

----

@SaveTheDragons

What did you think of LML's justification for taking his vote off you and putting it on UntrodTripod? Do you think that jumping from wagon to wagon is more scummy or not scummy?

I think jumping from wagon to wagon is jumping from wagon to wagon. I don't particularly think it's scummy when I do it because I'm town (please don't misread that, I'm making a point that the question appears obviously loaded, not that I think it's scummy otherwise).

As for his justification I strong suspect LML is scum but there's a wave of pro-town mania seeming to surround him. It's hard for me to be unbiased when I saw him attack me with shoddy logic, didn't rebut the holes I made in his arguments, and watched him claim his almighty VCA was the key to finding teh scums. The truth is I can see either PJ or UT as scum (UT for reasons entirely different than LML's magic crusade on wagoning, mind you).

I suppose you could look at it this way. If I'm town, and I think, ScummyMcScummerFace is scum, if I'm afraid I'm going to get targeted because ScummyMcScummerFace already has 6 votes, then ScummyMcScummerFace will never get lynched.

The reasoning is more important than the actual votes itself. I think LML has been kind of phoning it in, so to ultimately answer your question, well...he kind of just stated a fact (the sky is blue, the cake is a lie, UT was on X amount of wagons) and added a bit about voting for Nat. I don't really know how I feel about the Nat wagon, for me the towniness and scumminess kind of cancel and its a null tell.

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that while Seol didn't really have much to say D1, your content thus far doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that you are innocent.

----

2.)

MafiaSSK, where are you?

I am very, very concerned about this. The first several pages MafiaSSK could barely keep his wackiness contained.

[Save The Dragons]

Dear MafiaSSK,

Several pages ago and prior to the Great Tiger Attack, you voted CES because you claimed that he was scumbuddies with CTD. I don't think I can find a single person that truly agrees with this sentiment. While I do find his tunnel vision noteworthy, it hardly seems damning.

In the several pages that followed, am I to understand that above anything else that has happened, this is still the number 1 most interesting event and most likely tell of scumminess?

If you still think CES is scum, what else you got, and if not, what now?

Also, what is your opinion on Seol/Bookitty?

Sincerely,
STD

[Save The Dragons]

@bookitty

I'll admit in 498 I kind of wander around with the ball a bit and kind of leave the stadium behind. LML's justification for switching seems to be

1) UT's bandwagony
2) UT jumped on nat.

I don't really think the first part is a scum tell. I've been pretty friendly with my vote myself. Therefore I find your second question to me a bit silly.

I suspect he is willing to vote for someone bandwagony, and picked up on the VI thing. Voting me probably didn't have a lot of traction so I'm guessing that may have something to do as well.

The part that you seem to ignore is the fact that he didn't just post that excel sheet, said "look at dem facts" and switched his vote. From his post voting for UT has something to do with UT's voting for Nat.

[Save The Dragons]

Unvote, Vote: Bookitty

There's something I'm quite eager for you to respond to so I'll bite my tongue for now.

[Save The Dragons]

I haven't forgotten PJ.

[Save The Dragons]

- I look forward to Bookitty's responses to questions.

[Save The Dragons]

The thing I'm looking for will be in your next post(s).

I voted for MafiaSSK, not Tigris, so technically Seol and I weren't on opposite sides when I voted him.

[Save The Dragons]

I agree with Sotty7 in Post 144. Not so much with StD in Post 150; this I really didn’t like:

“In my opinion, I felt that that

while erroneous

, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read.”

Wait, did we see a Tigris flip? I don’t remember that. When did that happen?

I believe the use of the term erroneous here is an opinion. It may not be clear since I used terms like "I felt" and "In my opinion", but in my opinion, I feel like that implies an opinion.

[Save The Dragons]

Bookitty is scum because:

A) Seol was suspicious.
Seol jumped on an easy wagon hiding behind a rhetoric reason that seemed like low-hanging fruit. I've beaten this point to death, and I still feel like some of those people are scum.

Seol then posts next to nothing. It's early enough in the day. He evades detection. The wagon fizzles. whether he just completely crapped out or whether he wanted to lie low, I can't really say.

Stuff like this:

So I'll ask a seemingly useless question right back at you as you did to Tigris: Why is my (mostly theory based) opinion on bandwagons scummy enough to warrant a vote?

Because it favours scum. Either you're wrong or you're scum (with an inclusive or), and in a game full of experienced players, I give less credence to being wrong.

is simply justification to grab that low hanging fruit: "the theory he's spewing is bad, but since he's supposed to be smart, his bad theory is likely due to him being scum."

But to be honest, in the same post he points out the following about MafiaSSK

The arguments against CES are super,

super

stretching: he hasn't said nearly enough to read in that level of intent, and taking what he has said at face value is just disingenuous.

That's bad, but particularly so in that the theme of 156 is "this is why pushing RVS wagons is good: look at all the info we can get from it" - but that info is nonsense. It feels like artificial suspicion, like he's decided he needs to attack the people who were late on the wagon and then, given that, constructed reasons to suspect them.

Which is accurate. At this point I don't agree that MafiaSSK's behavior is scummy, but it is a bit out there and I can see both scum hungry for the easy lynch and townies falling into that trap.

Overall I don't think it's damning but I am leaning towards Seol being scum.

In 466 Bookitty basically defends LML. (This is bad because LML is scum too but I know not everyone agrees with me yet so I won't dwell on that).

Then there's this post.

Is LML a town read for you at this point? I'm getting the real feel of having your cake and eating it too so I would like you to clarify your opinion on him.

LML is a null-leaning-scum read for me. The scum part is:

He pulls his vote off STD and then votes UT for the EXACT SAME thing. His VCA actually shows that. I realize he's only got one vote, but why switch it at the point he does and then blame it on his VCA? That's not reading honest to me. STD ducked my question on that, but I would be interested to know how STD sees that move. To me, it was the scummiest thing LML did all game and it made me look hard at STD as a result.

The town part is:

I've read the game several times over the last few days. I still don't have it down, but I guess that's normal for a large game. But I notice that LML is the target of choice for a lot of people with not a lot of reasoning. I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.) I just gave my reason for thinking he might be scum; so far as I recall, I'm the only one who noted that exact thing. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember reading anyone on LML's wagon and saying, AHA, you think what *I* think.) The reasons given aren't as good as that one in my eyes, which makes me think that some of the people on LML's wagon are scum without real motivation except finding a convenient wagon. Which, in turn, makes me think that LML might be town after all.

For me the disconcerning part is that she seems to think I'm suspicious because:

4.)

Why, if LoudmouthLee's switch to Untrod Tripid was scummy, did LoudmouthLee's Vote Count Analysis "make you look hard" at Save the Dragons as a result? Were you looking for potential LoudmouthLee and Save the Dragons connections?

(at this point I don't think she's going to answer so I'm going to stop biting my tongue).

She seems to imply guilt by association, then removes the scumminess off of LML. She then spends some time in her PBPA to build a case against me, even though she no longer thinks LML is scum, so I'm not sure why she thinks I'm scum. The case she builds on me is highly inaccurate to fact.

From my point of view, she seemed to want to decide I was scum and attack me before constructing evidence for it, which makes me quite curious.

Another reason she seems to think that LML and I are scum together is because of the way LML stopped voting for me (which again is weird if she thinks LML is town). The thing about that is it selectively ignores LML's argument about UT jumping on the Nat wagon. Had she outright dismissed it, then maybe I would be less irked, but she mentioned that the reasoning LML voted for me and for UT was exactly the same, when in his post, it's clear that it isn't.

I don't know. To me it seems like she picked a target and then tried to justify it, which I think is pretty much the same reason PJ is voting for her (except for how she did it to PJ).

Honestly, take your pick of reasons to vote for Bookitty.

[Save The Dragons]

I don't care that you're still fine lynching Bookitty. She's town and you should feel bad.

You seem to spend a lot of time protecting the people I think are scum and not a lot of time explaining why they're not. Your argument that everyone else is town because PJ is scum doesn't really do anything for me.

----

6) StD's pro-town meta showed a stubbornness as town that did not seem to be shown here. I don't have links right now, and unless I get bored and have time, you probably won't get them from me now.

The beginnings of a rebuttal are 400 posts overdue.

[Save The Dragons]

This town has had trouble getting it up.

I feel that's pretty much been across the board, except for Bookitty's wagon. I don't recall any above 6 or 7 votes. I'm not sure if that's due to a cautious town or people just not being able to come to a consensus.

[Save The Dragons]

The case against Seol doesn't disappear just because he gets replaced.

Telling me I suck at mafia isn't really going to get your point across any better, it tells me that you don't have a good reason so you have to resort to ad hominem.

Am I wrong?

[Save The Dragons]

LML's gone off the deep end.

Claiming VT may not be the best of plays, but Bookitty didn't come into this game fresh, she replaced someone who hadn't said anything for a long time. If she's scum, she didn't have a month to think of a strategy, and her hail mary could simply be to act as townie as possible (which in this case may be doing the less smart play now to live another day). To me it doesn't seem impossible for her to claim VT if she hopes that it will drive people off her lynch. Based on other factors, I'm not convinced she isn't scum, and her claim doesn't change my earlier opinion of her.

The heat that mathcam is getting for VT being a safe lynch I disagree with personally, it seems to me like some real old school theory: clear some townies out if you have to, since they're just townies. I remember liking that theory when I was younger. I can see the merits in it and I don't know if it's necessarily bloodthirsty or an attempt at further strategy.

If that were the only thing going for Bookitty, I'd stop voting for her, but again I'm not convinced that this absolves her of guilt and I'm not sure that she wouldn't do this as scum.

That being said, I think PJ might be scum, and I think Bookitty might be scum, but not both. I think that might be one thing that her lynch would help determine (at least for me).

[Save The Dragons]

I think at this point, I would be happy to place my vote on Bookitty, PJ, or LML.

There's a couple other people I could see myself voting, but I'm more suspicious of the three I've mentioned and don't think people would go for anyone else anyway.

If we are not doing Bookitty, then

Vote: LML

[Save The Dragons]

Let's do this:

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Iso him and find your own reasons!

No.

At this point I'd rather vote for you than him, tbh.

[Save The Dragons]

This town has had trouble getting it up.

[Save The Dragons]

More Untrod Tripod votes please.

Glad you are posting effectively.

[Save The Dragons]

Actually, contrary to my previous post its now LML 6 Bookitty 8. I'm sure she was closer not so long ago. If Bookitty ever turns up scum at some point, the people who unvoted and made a no lynch incredibly likely deserve to die.

Seriously? I'm voting LML because I think we can lynch him. I jumped off Bookitty because way too many people are saying "BOOKITTY'S TOWN I'LL NEVER VOTE HER!" I'm not convinced that enough people will jump onto it in time, so I decided to try another of my top suspects.

You're going to blame people who are trying to get a lynch on someone over people like MBL and DGB who are hopelessly clutching at targets that don't have time to be lynched, or like ABR/Glork who are trying to start a brand new wagon in the 11th hour, or people like Kubla Khan who have promised content but have yet to park a vote? If we get a no lynch, that's where the hell I'm looking, people who are pussyfooting around instead of jumping onto the wagon of the person they find the most scummy.

I'm starting to think that DGB is scum but I don't dare vote her yet, because that would be ridiculous. I'm not going to bother posting a case on her yet nor voting her.

If the Bookitty wagon picks up some steam, I'll happily place my vote there. If PJ's wagon picks up steam, yeah, I'll deposit my vote there. I'm perfectly happy getting one of these three lynched.

[Save The Dragons]

More Untrod Tripod votes please.

Glad you are posting effectively.

You forgot to vote UT.

You make a compelling argument.

[Save The Dragons]

I just found DGB's UT vote to be pretty bad which is why I questioned that read in particular.

So clearly, you haven't bothered iso'ing UT.

And I actually did this and was not convinced. I'd be willing to double check, but not today since nothing jumped out at me.

[Save The Dragons]

You're going to blame people who are trying to get a lynch on someone over people like MBL and DGB who are hopelessly clutching at targets that don't have time to be lynched

protip: voting all four of the biggest wagons of the day doesn't make you protown in and of itself, it makes you a good Left4Dead player.

Just want to make sure you're aware that all three players that I'm willing to lynch have been people I've made cases against.

In my passion/rage I may have exaggerated the point, it's not necessarily scummy to have a target that no one agrees with. I was merely upset at the notion that what I did was furthering a no lynch when I believed my actions were trying to prevent it.

But...at the same time DGB's case on UT for example "look at his ISO! Then you'll see! You'll all see!" isn't doing much for me. Anyone who's commented on it (which I think is just me, Porochaz, and UT) haven't suggested they are impressed, and anyone who hasn't (which I think is 18 other people) haven't jumped in line. Tigris wasn't a scumread for me. Since I find several other people scummy, Khan's absence hasn't convinced me one way or the other, either.

In the last Oldy game, D1, all ten votes on Mert arrived in the 24 hours prior to deadline. Your hyperbole rings somewhat hollow.

Do you think this is a common occurrence and that with this town we can be expected to come up with a viable lynch with less than a day to go from nothing?

That being said, it may be time to shit or get off the pot.

...so you agree with me anyway?

[Save The Dragons]

Khan's absence hasn't convinced me one way or the other, either.

What do you think of Khan's posting?

There's like nothing there. So, uh...I don't know? I kind of wish he posted more, but at the same time there's plenty of scum to catch and not enough time to do it. I certainly think that it's plausible KK was kind of toeing the line, seeing how far he could get without posting, but I'm not convinced that that's what happened. I'm not wowed by his content, either. Maybe he's scum, maybe he's not. He's null, and under a time crunch I'd happily go for one of my scum reads over a null read. Not on a time crunch, I'd happily go after a scum read over a null read. He'll have plenty of time D2 to speak.

That is not to say he shouldn't say anything today if he can.

I'm also not particularly confident of the towniness of the last few people to jump onto the wagon.

[Save The Dragons]

Mehhhhhhh. Better than a Bookitty lynch, except that's going to be a distraction for a while probably. I'm not super convinced this will flip scum, unless LmL's slip is actually a scumslip.

FTR, KKscum directly implicates STDscum at this point. The bold, but undeniable protection is a solid link, esp if both LML/Boo are town.

Your posting has deteriorated as the day had dragged on.

[Save The Dragons]

Glork:

Eh, I wasn't trying to attack your character or anything, so if that's how it was perceived, I apologize.

I think your posts towards the beginning seemed more pro-town, and then there's a sudden emotional shift which strikes me as odd. Say what you want, I greatly dislike the KK wagon, I think it was a distraction. I think your attack on CES was weak, I think your attack on CTD was weak.

...but I'm not going to waste time trying to get you lynched with less than 12 hours to go, especially since I don't really find you more scummy than LML. In fact, you went from town and dropped a couple slots, which I suppose puts you in null territory.

But don't tell Glork, because he might assume that me not voting for you means were scumbuddies.

[Save The Dragons]

Almost everything VitaminR says ever I agree with.

Going to review a little this weekend but right now my top picks are Bookitty, Glork and DGB.

I, too, like all those options, (as well as PJ). Not sure if a BooKitty wagon will garner any new information, but if we want to lynch BooKitty I'd be for it. As a professional courtesy, I'm going to try to bring a case against DGB and Glork before I decided to move my vote there. So for now,

Vote: PJ

Out of curiosity, ABR, and I'm sure I'm not going to get an answer to this, but do you think PJ is town or do you just think there are better targets?

[Save The Dragons]

The wagon I'd like to look at personally is the KK wagon of T minus 24 hours.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I don't know if KK is scum, and if he is, then it's all moot. But if he isn't, I'm not convinced that it was helpful to basically use your vote to try and get someone to produce content with so little time left in the day.

There seems to be movement in a DGB-wardly direction, so I'll start there.

DGB:

I'll go a step further. CTD is on the NERVERLYNCH list. He's that town.

Porochaz is scum.

So far, scum is Porochaz & LML with a hint of pj who seems to be trying to frame players rather than scum hunt, and chamber because you know what? Maybe he's just a little TOO chipper.

I'm confused about neverlynch, I'm not sure it's a great idea to stick your neck out so far, but that could just be playstyle. If you knew he was town, however, it wouldn't hurt. At the same time, you probably could never vote him without being

Now that it's been a month, does the NEVERLYNCH of CTD still hold?

You mentioned this as your reasoning for Porochaz

The combination of RL excuses and the posting style prior to said excuses smell of scum avoiding the game.

When you called Porochaz out as scum, this was before the anouncement he made concerning his grandmother.

He voted for Glork, decided to vote MafiaSSK, alerts us that he's going to have limited access (and yet some how manages to find a computer and make a classy post discussing the nature of the letter p).

So, game starts on May 13. Two days later he mentions he has LA for that weekend. Before that, he did manage to post something related to the game, so I'm not exactly sure where prior he was avoiding the game.

Therefore, your scum read is not based on the first part, since it happened before, and is based on the second part on a player with LA? I'll admit the LA wasn't on the entirety of the time, but he did manage to make a few posts during that time.

Zorblag is town.

That one made me wary at the time, but thinking about it, I don't know if it really means anything unless Zorblag flips.

eh I'm totally happy to lynch either LML or Bookitty at this point

Thanks for being so obvious!

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Not sure what's obvious about this (it doesn't help that LML flipped scum. It looks like you had town reads on both of them). But I can think of at least one (awesome and handsome) player that vocalized this same opinion and who you have a town read on.

Let's do this:

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Iso him and find your own reasons!

As town this isn't really helpful. If you're scum and UT is town, you're basically asking someone else to make a case for you.

VOTE UNTROD TRIPOD

OLDY MAFIA'S ROB FORD

Okay, I lol'd at that.

Oh alright, since you guys don't want to lynch the obvscum among us:

VOTE: KK

You made no case, you just seem to be gung-ho on UT. Then you want to jump on a last minute bandwagon, which honestly feels like a distraction. regardless of what Oldy 1 was like, I would not count on THIS particular town to get their heads together and lynch someone with 24 hours to spare.

vote: DGB

[Save The Dragons]

lol @ dgb votes.

If you legit think that she is scum because she defended LML D1, you're in the wrong game.

lol

----

When LML complained about being bus'ed, this is what his wagon looked like:

LoudmouthLee (11) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly, Save the Dragons, Porochaz, Kublai Khan, VitaminR

I have solid town reads on STD, Yosarian & VitaminR - and I think Green Crayons.

...leaving PJ, Poro & KK.

currently voting for me:

Untrod Tripod,

petroleumjelly

,

Kublai Khan

, Sotty7,

Save the Dragons

LML bus'ers:

Green Crayons, Yosarian2,

petroleumjelly

,

Save the Dragons

, Porochaz,

Kublai Khan

, VitaminR

Two out of

PJ, STD & KK

are scum.

lol

[Save The Dragons]

Did/do people seriously think that KK was possibly getting lynched yesterday? He had (I think 4), can anyone find 8 other players that expressed a modicum of interest?

KK is not scum. I think LML saw him pick up a few votes and just jumped on the opportunity to hopefully swing the direction in someone-not-him.

LML jumping onto KK's wagon was, yes, an attempt to legitimize it and get votes off of him. But unless he thought a lot of people (many of whom were on him) were going to suddenly say "yeah, that guy I'm voting for. I found him suspect, but it'd be nice if KK talked more," or maybe more accurate, "LML has said a lot and appears suspicious, but there's nothing KK can say when he does show up to convince me he's not scum," then I'm not really sure how you can clear KK so quickly.

----

lol @ dgb votes.

If you legit think that she is scum because she defended LML D1, you're in the wrong game.

Take a look at the thread. Not a single person voting for DrippingGoofball has said they are voting her for her

because

she defended LoudmouthLee. At best Kublai Khan has said he wants DrippingGoofball to answer his question from Day One (which was, in fact, asking

how

DrippingGoofball got a Townread on LoudmouthLee), and Save the Dragons has mentioned that it certainly does not

help

her.

Do you disagree with this statement, Glork?

----

Thoughts on STD?

Your OMGUS whispering campaign is adorable.

[Save The Dragons]

Your posting has deteriorated as the day had dragged on.

As opposed to yours, which was not that great to begin with and hasn't improved?

Wheeeeee deadline ad hom.

I don't really have a beat on him one way or another. To be completely honest, I haven't investigated his contributions in detail.

...

[Save The Dragons]

@MBL:

Cutting out all the rest:

Porochaz vote seemed strange. He didn't seem to be avoiding the game. DGB first got her scum read on him only based on this. Later she added that bit about his RL engagements. Trying to figure out where she got her first scum read and I'm not seeing it.

Adamant attack against UT, claims it's obvious. Not sure what's obvious about it, and like I said, I pretty much said the same thing and got a townie pass from her. Asking others to find the case for her makes her job easier if she's scum trying to frame UT. That doesn't sit well with me. That in itself is a bit weak, but the fact that she pretty much tried to drag the town into voting UT after it was clear it wasn't happening struck me as odd.

KK wagon was bullshit in my opinion. I'm suspicious of anyone on it. I'm beating a dead horse though. If you disagree, I don't think I'm going to be able to say anything else to convince you.

Overall her play seems to be more inline with trying to distract the town rather than catch scum.

Her position on LML doesn't preclude her from being scum unless you think LML was being bussed by all the scum when he said bus, which seems ridiculous.

And then after my vote of her, 919 is laughable, but I'm biased. I'm having a little trouble not taking it personally when people accuse me of being scum. I suppose it's just being rusty at this game, or maybe I never was good at that. I don't remember. It seems I went from town to suspect based on my case/vote of her.

@Glork:

If I come at you again, it'll be with a case, not these childish pot-shots I've been doing.

[Save The Dragons]

KK wagon was bullshit in my opinion. I'm suspicious of anyone on it. I'm beating a dead horse though. If you disagree, I don't think I'm going to be able to say anything else to convince you.

I'm pretty sure it never grew past four.

Did you expect it to get past four votes?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm arguing that

none of KK's voteres was stupid enough to try to carry that dead weight

. If you disagree, I'd like to know who specifically you think tried to save him by voting KK, and why.

I'm going to pretend you're using the word "illogical" instead of "stupid," because otherwise all this is is a shouting match.

I'm also not really sure I'm going to be able to give you an answer you'll be satisfied with. But I'm not going to sit here with my tail between my legs. Agree with me, don't agree with me, call me stupid, call me suspicious, whatever.

First of all, I had at least slight scumreads on all three people on the KK wagon, before the wagon occurred. This proves nothing regarding this argument, but it certainly makes me feel better about it.

Anyone pushing for legitimacy of the KK wagon at the end of the day gives me pause. They're trying to make a case at the end of the day that, yeah, could end badly if it's false. It's a risk if they're scum. But if enough people start to see that wagon as an option for the end of the day, the payoff is huge, and there's a long list of targets that people can suspect.

In the last Oldy game, D1, all ten votes on Mert arrived in the 24 hours prior to deadline. Your hyperbole rings somewhat hollow. That being said, it may be time to shit or get off the pot.

MBL decides to basically play both sides, suggesting it's possible that a KK lynch will occur, but also saying that eh, he'll vote for a bandwagon if need be. It seems plausible that he's trying to cover his bases. Unless he hates me, I'm confused by the need in that post to rail me and then point out that my point had merit.

I'm not going to lynch LML

A no lynch is preferable?

YES

Not sure if she's joking, but she gives no indication as to why she chose to vote KK instead of Bookitty, or even PJ.

You (glork) have stated your intent was for pressure.

At this point I'll probably? lynch anyone not named Glork, ABR, Bookitty, DGB, or Porochaz, and possibly LmL

But seriously, KK coming into thread like 18 hours before deadline and posting a one-liner about being called "she," instead of ANY USEFUL CONTENT OR PRODUCTIVE VOTE WHATSOEVER, is complete horse shit, and it needs to die as soon as possible.

Forgive me for sounding dense, but the "it" in the statement seems ambiguous to me. The two sentences together imply that you're willing to lynch KK. Your explanation of your play that you gave today seems plausible so I'm really not sure what to think of you.

I'm not saying that all three of you are scum trying to avoid LML's wagon any way possible, but I'm not willing to dismiss the chance that no one took the chance to try and draw some attention away from the wagon. If I'm the toy dog yapping that everyone is rolling their eyes at and no one is listening to, then I'm not so sure that the word "stupid" (or "illogical") applies. Lastly, the entire KK wagon occurred before LML made his ultimate dead-weight post, what with the bus and the declaration of no claim. There was momentum towards LML, but there was no guarantee that people wouldn't have picked another wagon. I think any one of you could have been in it to save him, I don't know for certain which one. I could be wrong for all I know and you all are clean. But to me it's worth pursuing now.

[Save The Dragons]

MBL:

You've asked me several questions, but you haven't really responded to anything I've said. I know you're trying to get a read on me, but I'd also be very frustrated if you suddenly popped up and built an entire case on me based on LML's play. Do you think it's possible LML is aware of his meta and could fake it?

[Save The Dragons]

Anyway I am unable to make as full a post as I like because work but considering pj explicitly stated what LML was doing in

the very next post

and you referenced it and pj's reply

2 posts later!

Even without knowing the rhyme - which you know, you could have looked up, but I'll accept you didn't - you can't miss it, it was in a post you directly replied to!!!

Do you

really

think DGB is scum because she didn't look up a nursery rhyme?

--

I start out the day by voting mathcam, then he votes for me with flimsy half-baked characterizations, and then accuses me of OMGUS. He's caught. Lynch him.

Looking back at your posts you do seem to be very on him then off of him for the rest of the day, and you do go between (I think PJ was the name mathcam meant to say) PJ and LML. I don't know if I reach the same conclusion but I don't think he's wrong in his statement.

In 12 hours you did go from

Kill LML

to

LML sounds town here. I'm not convinced.

In the two posts of LML that lie in between, LML jokes about your suspicion of him, states that he wanted to keep his vote on Tigris, tries to define his own meta, says he's not as good at this game as he once was, accuses me of scum, and states that when he had a reason to move his vote, he did.

302 and 305 for reference.

What made you think he was town?

[Save The Dragons]

How on earth did you read that from what I wrote?

If you're innocent, I'm not outing a "cop," I'm just pretending to think ABR is a cop.

Only if you're scum, am I outing a cop, LOL. You said I outed ABR-cop who is hinting at a guilty on YOU. You just confessed scum.

Thanks!

This is the strangest post I've ever seen...

[Save The Dragons]

@STD

, why did you start out the day voting PJ?

I still found him suspicious for some of his actions yesterday.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm working on a post right now on a lot of things, but since this whole undo thing is going on right now, I figure I'll post what I have about that.

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

I agree with you...I am continually unimpressed with undo's contributions, they seem to be a lot of fluff and not a lot of action. I sounds like a post just to post, and he even kind of discredits his information.

I am aware this system is not precise and objective – it was not intended to be so. It’s just a way of helping me (and hopefully some of you) look into the right players.

I have yet to analyse this results and interpret them in depth -- I will do it as soon as possible, but for now I’m not making any comment because I don't want to be rash. This may not bring anything new to your table but I personally felt I needed to do this to be sure about my next steps.

I think I'll reserve further judgment until undo gives the analysis, though.

Also, Congratulations, Yos, you won with 28 points!

[Save The Dragons]

And second, Albert B. Rampage alleged he had "looked into the players bussing LoudmouthLee" and decided mathcam was the worst (and maybe CrashTextDummie), but neither of those players had voted LoudmouthLee.

CTD hammered LML...so he may not have been busing all throughout the day, but LML's vote was preferable to a no lynch. Although it could be scum trying to win some townie points by saving a doomed scumpartner, I suspect the motivation was pro-town.

That said I'm still a little confused by ABR's posts, so if I'm just wrong, let me know. Not enough coffee yet.

First, the "breathe in, breathe out" commentary towards Glork's alleged "tilt" does not seem sincere or necessary. I don't like it.

Not really sure what you're trying to imply; do you find ABR-Glork buddying to be suspicious?

Red Leader: All wings check in.

Red Two, standing by.

It'd take some balls to start out the day talking to your partner...but I think those two have some pretty big balls though so I can't count it out.

On a related note:

Now some follow-up questions for mathcam. It should be noted that I did not realize your +1/-1 system would not even give

post numbers

.

It seems to me you're using your questions to trap people. This seems like a repeat of your VitR baiting yesterday, with the exception that mathcam "stepped in it."

You asked for notes, mathcam deliviered, and you scrutinize it (which is valid because his opinions on LML, Bookitty, and ABR don't match up with his system).

It seems to me that your traps are as likely to catch scum as they are townies who screw up. How do you keep the latter out?

----

VOTE: ABR

Not really sure why pretending to out a cop to drag someone's name down then voting said person you claimed to be cop shows any form of credibility.

Out of curiosity, what defines the wagon du jour?

----

@MBL:

Is there anyone worth placing a vote on yet? I concede we're on differing opinions about how to use your vote. If you are waiting for someone who you want to lynch to place your vote, did you think KK's lynch was a possibility yesterday?

----

You've made an enemy out of a friend DGB, and now I won't unvote you.

Not sure if this is healthy or that I believe you'll never unvote her given your penchant for dramatics yesterday.

[Save The Dragons]

Other than I believe in it?

No. No. No. NO.

Kill LML

There's NO WAY that CES is looking town right now. Vote him.

You're a little dramatic. I agree that DGB looks like scum but if you're trying to intimidate her (or whatever you're trying to do) with "I won't unvote you" I'm not sure it's going to be effective.

[Save The Dragons]

Please. I'm just cuddly.

[Save The Dragons]

Shocker!

(This post is reserved for when ABR changes his vote so I can quote it in a fury of I told you so.)

(Because apparently being dramatic and ad homming people who attack you is scumhunting, and whatever the hell ABR thinks I'm doing is not).

[Save The Dragons]

Do you really think DGB is scum because she didn't look up a nursery rhyme?

Please don't make me sad asking awful questions... in no way do I think DGB is scum for not knowing a nursery rhyme, I think I made that clear. PJ extracted the information out of the post before DGB posted.

I'm sorry you're having a shitty day.

That's not what I asked. You make a big deal about looking up the rhyme/trying to understand something nonsensical. Had I not understood it, I probably wouldn't have said anything about it, because I agreed with PJ that further talk about it would just complicate things, and because I was pretty sure LML was just making shit up at that point. DGBscum would probably ignore it, DGBtown has suggested that she listened to PJ.

Although I suppose DGB probably wouldn't care about the first part, considering she opened that can of worms when she brazenly declared ABR to be a cop, and the second part, since she didn't find LML suspicious. The first part of this paragraph wasn't relevant when I posed my question to you.

[Save The Dragons]

1281 pretty much sums up how I feel. I'm not sure what to say or any elegant way to put it. From a game standpoint, my opinion hasn't changed in light of this.

----

Still fine with either DGB or ABR lynch, still leaning ABR. That said, I have to admit a mercy kill for DGB has some merit, and it seems wasteful to have someone replace in, get caught up, only to be on the verge of being lynched with no plausible escape route.

Nothing in this post definitively implies you think she might be scum. Do you think that's a possibility?

I performed a cursory glance at your recent post and didn't find anything, if I missed something please correct me.

----

I don't remember who compared Nat to Inhim, and before today I would have probably whole-heartedly agreed, but...

The difference between Inhim and Nat in a nutshell:

Suspicion of CTD is not that he didn't follow up. It's that he felt the need to inform he would do so. His iso is peppered with similar posts.

I'm lurking.

----

vote: undo

Why vote now? Coupled with your question, it seems like your vote is for pressure, which is pretty uncharacteristic of how you've used your vote so far. I know some players, myself included, have been nipping at your heels about your vote, but I'd be shocked if you claimed to be voting for appeasement.

[Save The Dragons]

Deciding whether somebody is Town or Scum is pretty much

the point

of the game. And I feel I am better at making those types of decisions if people are actually forced to explain themselves when they say things that contradictory (even if they are only contradictory on the surface).

So briefly, then, what answer could VitR given yesterday that would have made you feel he was scum, and what answer would have made you feel he might be town?
I'd like to know the same with mathcam.

I'm trying to differentiate between TownPJ asking questions and genuinely criticizing the answers and scumPJ twisting the answers to suit your needs, and how likely townPJ picks up false scum reads in particular from your "trap" questions.

----

Found someone who stands out from the crowd. Good time to vote.

It's clear why you voted undo.

If I recall correctly, this is your third vote of the game.

I'm trying to figure out why you voted undo and then gave this post asking for an explanation. From my point of view, it seems like you're asking for information, not saying "mike drop, I found the worst scum in undo, everyone vote now," like as if undo gives a good answer, then you'll move your vote (I could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted your question to undo).

If that's correct, then this vote on undo is for pressure, which is something you have yet to really do: vote for pressure. So are you deadset on riding undo until the end of D2 or are you just applying pressure?

[Save The Dragons]

Hmm. I'm not convinced undo is town, but that's a lot of sudden undo hate.

At the moment I still like DGB better.

[Save The Dragons]

I think there's a lot of people who have wanted to lynch undo for a while, but just never really saw a chance.

I don't doubt that. I'm trying to be cautious because I too am not opposed to an undo bandwagon (not sure I would go so far and say lynch quite yet), but the way it just sprung, with a couple people who haven't even breathed undo's name so far gives me pause.

Early day 1 I thought that undo was a little bit more reactionary and less invested in volunteering thoughts, and that his volunteered thoughts were intentionally away from major town events going on. I kind of changed course after I didn't quite like your suspicion of him and I'll admit that he's kind of flown back under the radar in favor of other targets.

I'll take a look at his ISO soon but I'm still hesitant to give up on DGB.

[Save The Dragons]

I think I'll reserve further judgment until undo gives the analysis, though.

Ok, undo's analysis is in. Actually, it was in like 36 hours ago. What's your take on 1) him giving townreads and 2) his "distancing" analysis? And what's your take on undo's play around deadline D1 and early D2?

You're right. I overlooked his most recent postings. I'll try to get to this tonight or tomorrow.

STD attempts to draw town's attention to the fact that he's chasing undo, even though he's not voting undo anymore, he's voting LML. STD also attempts to draw town's attention to his involvement with LML, but it's a weird question, because why would STD's #1 suspect particularly care about STD's reason for suspecting his #2 suspect?

A) I do only have 1 vote. But more importantly:

B) His first point against me was that my question with undo was strange. I'll admit the very beginning of day 1 I was keeping my cards close to the chest. When I realized that wasn't getting me anywhere, I decided to say fuck it and open up. I gave an explanation and he didn't say anything about, and I wanted a response. The fact that he didn't give one helped push me over the edge to vote for him.

Here's the posts that lead to that quote:

What's more telling, however, was Undo asking a legitimate question, and STD running to defend Albert's lack of substance.

<snip>

Vote: Save the Dragons

Then undo comes along. He blazes over the (again to be fair, only 3 legitimate) wagons and his eyes narrow to the aforementioned post like a teenage boy starting at a pair of boobies and having the rest of the world just dissapear around him.

So why is his vote still in the RVS?

From my viewpoint it looks like you've taken statements out of context, made your own context of "well, it must be scum motivated because I personally can't identify the town motivation." Let me know if you still can't find any town motivation.

Interestingly, both the undo unvote and the LML unvote were accompanied by jokes, hinting at a guilty conscience or need to distract:

Interestingly, half the things I've said in this game are either tongue in cheek, sarcastic, or jovial in nature. Is it possible that this hints at the fact I'm just

an annoying

a humorous player?

Unvote, Vote: Zorblag

I'm number 1!

<snip>

Vote: PJ

If later in the day we all decide to lynch LML, please, please, please don't be surprised if I jump on that wagon hardcore.

Part of that <snip> includes my suspicions of PJ. Voting for Zorblag was a joke. I suppose that you're more concerned with the unvote, but honestly I wasn't sure that LML was going to get lynched at that time, so I moved on to another target, with that stipulation at the end (that I realize may look even more like distancing, but once again I had one vote).

[Save The Dragons]

And the answer?

[Save The Dragons]

2)

Nothing in this post definitively implies you think she (DGB) might be scum. Do you think that's a possibility?

Absolutely. I'm the first admit that I find her play style essentially unreadable, but I think she has done so many anti-town things recently (stance on LML, outing her perceived cop, the debate with ABR) to make her lynchworthy completely independent of any reads.

Pretty sure I wrote that, not inhim.

Have you made this stance known at any point in day 2? "Go F yourself STD search my posts" is a valid answer, I just want to save myself some time since I'm already going through undo's posts which has me searching other people's posts to verify if his reads seem legit.

How likely do you think a DGB-ABR pairing is?

----

MBL, what do you think of the speed of the wagon built on undo, considering the other wagons in this game?

(I know I'm just wasting my breath because you're waiting for my post on undo to continue talking to me (or rather not talk to me) but I thought I'd ask anyway. It's coming.).

----

Unvote, vote Untrod Tripod

Hi ABR! I'm apparently a masochist, because I find myself asking you another question.

What's different about his votes than the other votes for undo?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm going to preface this with:

1) I remain unconvinced that the actions performed by DGB were town. As far as I'm concerned, the case has already been made, rebutted, and the verdict is in. I understand that this wagon is losing steam though so I'll be reassessing and seeing if there's anyone else I feel strongly about.

2) 7 votes in 21 hours is very fast for this town. I think Yos may be right, that this nagging suspicion on undo lay in the minds of several people, and thus the wagon occured, but why wait until MBL posted to vote? Anyone else could have made undo a viable option.

Also, let me know if I got it wrong, but here's who they were voting before they switched to undo.

MBL-voting no one.
Glork-voting ABR.
chamber-voting mathcam.
CES-voting mathcam.
Yos-voting CES.
Porochaz-voting DGB.
UT-voting DGB.

3) I'm starting to have doubts that MBL is town. I felt like his attack against me was driven with a lot of information taken out of context, but since I'm caught in the crossfire I'm more interested if other people see it the same way or if I'm just jumpy. I am mistrustful of his "hovering" around. Of the KK voters, I do think DGB is probably more likely to be scum, though, so I don't really have anything concrete.

I mention those three things because my look at undo is a bit affected by those pieces. Looking at undo's post has lead me to a conclusion that I think he's town, but those three things helped.

Anyway,

On to my analysis of the most LML-distanced players:

undo seems to be choosing "distanced" players as defined by players who had as little interaction with LML as possible. I don't know if I love this approach; in a game with 22 people, it's inevitable that people aren't going to form connections with everyone. However, I don't fault him for selecting a subset of players and trying to determine if any of them are scummy, since a few players began day 2 that way.

I would be suspicious if his argument was "this LML distanced ness is the only reason I find XXXXXX to be scummy." Looking at the names provided, however, he says the following in his post (my commentary in paranthesis):

chamber and CES buddy.

From the last days of D1 and on to D2, [CES] has been more consistent and helpful, though.

(btw, I'd love to see an example selected by undo of this.)

Inhim/zorblag slot is suspicious because of zorblag voting for porochaz to be the 2nd on a wagon instead of voting for GC. (I'm not sure how I feel about zorblag)

Inhim didn't do much at all and hasn't really been active. (fair enough, but inhim did finally give a reason for his action. still, i'd love to see someone like zorblag back in that spot).

He points out that Glork does seem to quickly change his mind about Bookitty (looking back, there's no post from PJ or Bookity between glork's statement that he's willing to vote either and then deciding to vote PJ, he was not voting for Bookitty at this time, his vote was on Yosarian.)

His first paragraph on DGB states that he finds a scumpairing unlikely.
His second says that she almost always writes "____ is town." (I disagree with his use of the words 'almost always,' but everything else he says about DGB I agree with. I find it hard to fault him for landing on that wagon for that reason, and thus from my point of view I don't think undo's landing on the biggest wagon was disingenuine. But I can't really fault Glork for that opinion, I don't think he's wrong to have it).

----

As for the rest of undo's play, at the begining I was a little surprised he was more interested in trying to get ABR to talk then to make any form of opinion on any wagon going on. It's the same thing that gave me pause when I saw his 1165, posting just to post but not presenting information.

One thing that struck me D1 was his dealings with Yos. I didn't like Yos's attack, how it started with mentioning something about voting DGB by way of homage meant something. I thought his responses were solid.

I liked his point about the consistent appeal to emotion from bookitty's posts.

I like his responses to glork, kind of the same thing with Yos's attack. I'm not sold on the attack so I think the response is fine.

----

I think undo's town. I feel confident that DGB is scum.

[Save The Dragons]

And...maybe? I think it's gatherable from my interactions with DGB today (and I would have thought relatively obvious at all).

How likely do you think a DGB-ABR pairing is?

Not.

The reasons I ask this is...

Seriously, DGB? Now you're taking a ridiculous stab at identifying a cop

and

outing said cop at the same time?

No vote/FOS...doesn't mean much on its own.

Here's what I'm saying appears to have been your thought process: You thought you found a cop with a guilty investigation, and instead of going back and trying to make an argument against that guilty person, you decide that the best plan of action would be to out your perceived cop. How does that even resemble a sensible plan of action?

This post implies you're viewing her from a town mindset, asking her about her plan of action.

1091 implies that you dislike her meta, but it's an argument against that playstyle in general.

DGB preferring a no-lynch to lynching LML was completely nuts, regardless of her alignment.

Here you imply that her crazy behavior is not indicative of alignment.

On the other hand,

outing

the cop is publicly posting this suspicion. I find both of the steps of DGB's process in this instance to be pretty indefensible.

This is the first time you state that her action was suspicious. It is definately fair to say that just because you didn't say it didn't mean you weren't thinking it, but at the same time from another angle it seems possible that you started to express your aprehension for DGB when things looked their bleakest for her.

Your vote for ABR and this quote here:

Anyone have a quick reference to a game where DGB was lynched as town? I'd like to compare exit strategies.

Suggest that even though you found them both scummy. In a worldview where ABR is scum, if they're not partners, she's most likely town. Though it is fair to have doubt on DGB.

Still fine with either DGB or ABR lynch, still leaning ABR. That said, I have to admit a mercy kill for DGB has some merit, and it seems wasteful to have someone replace in, get caught up, only to be on the verge of being lynched with no plausible escape route.

This post does not imply you think she's scum.

It feels to me that you're either trying hard to paint her as town in your posts or that's something you already know.

Now I have to go back and look at your/MafiaSSK's posts more critically to see if I'm making sense or just reading too much into this.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm honestly having trouble talking about DGB. This game is confrontational. I don't want her to be scum but I don't know how to respond to what she does without coming across as insensitive.

If DGB is town, I'm not sure why we have to jump through hoops to get information from her. If she wants to post it, fine. If not, fine. But blatantly declaring that she is withholding her analysis in exchange for some promise just seems disingenuous to me. It glorifies any analysis from her if we don't end up lynching her, which is harmful if we don't know her alignment.

That being said, if she is town, I'm more than happy to look through who she thinks is suspicious and why, if she hasn't already laid it out in thread. If I agree with her reads then I'd consider it. If she's scum, this is just a gambit to stay afloat.

[Save The Dragons]

It glorifies any analysis from her

But it will glorify it MORE after I flip town. I want my analysis to be glorified.

Are you afraid that I will find you scum for the LML X-bus'ing, and after I flip town, you'll be lynched?

Is that what your analysis says? I'd love to see it. I even said that (on the stipulation that I'm completely wrong about you):

That being said, if she is town, I'm more than happy to look through who she thinks is suspicious and why, if she hasn't already laid it out in thread.

What I was referring to was specifically if you are scum, you are calling attention to your analysis and saying it's a golden key to victory. I have no doubt that if you are town your analysis will be somewhat informative. In that light, I would consider it.

I mistrust the fact that you are holding "secret analysis" over our heads. If it's just "lynch the people I've been targeting" I mistrust it even more, since it's the same information we've already dissected, you're just trying to breathe new life into it. This seems like a gambit to me. I'm sorry if it isn't, but I'm not just seeing it the other way.

[Save The Dragons]

I don't have time to post much at the moment, but...

@STD

, what do you think of mathcam?

I gave MafiaSSK a pretty clear townread for the fact that his wagon seemed to unnaturally build. The thought that an LML FOS of the slot while keeping his vote on Tigris recently crept into my mind as "maybe he's trying to keep pressure but not actually vote his partner." I'm not really sure if that's the case, but I have found most of the people who were on the wagon to lean more towards town, and the only stand out that I feel may not be town (PJ) was kind of the most innocent person on that wagon, since he was the first to chime in with the reasoning, and everyone else followed.

I feel like both MafiaSSK and mathcam could have fallen for the trap of "saying things that sound suspicious but in reality are not." For that reason, the wagon MafiaSSK, and the general nature of mathcam's posts I have considered the slot pro-town, but with that recent thought about LML not touching the wagon and with mathcam's recent posts about DGB, I want to reconsider that, so when I get a free moment I'll take a look at his ISO with a neutral mindset and see what I see.

[Save The Dragons]

Don't worry, chamber. This post contains no quotes!

----

From the vanity aspect, I feel like I'm slowly being slid into DGB's scum reads from town position. In 888 I wasn't a "bussing" candidate. In 919 I went into a 2/3 chance of being scum (of note at that point DGB isn't even voting any of the 3 she's singled out). Eventually it became "voting the wagon du jour," which I suppose is at least an explanation. In 1436 I'm scum, less likely than PJ, but pretty much scum with PJ. In my column in her two analysis posts (989 is the other), there's nothing new written between the two.

For DGB: What does PJ and I voting together imply, by the way? If I took the effort, do you think I could find some other pairs that seemed to vote together a lot?

Your vote movements section has a lot of facts and a few opinions in it, some of them were already known. You've added a lot of your townie reads and gave one reason for each of them, which is illustrative, but not necessarily telling.

Nothing you've written about UT in these analysis posts implies a reason you thought he was scum at the time of his vote. Quoting his willingness to vote for either wagon isn't much of a reason, and your post asking people to ISO him and find their own reasons also comes before any analysis you have on UT.

Overall I'm not seeing the huge difference (other than time) in the two analysis posts.

Question for (anyone, really). If DGB had posted 1436 in place of 989 (barring any time discrepencies), would the day have turned out differently? Does anyone else feel like she did glorify this analysis?

Or am I just missing the amazingness that is DGB's analysis due to confirmation bias?

tl;dr: still like DGB. Having trouble putting aside the MANY things she's done that appear anti-town in favor of one post that doesn't impress me, but clearly I'm missing something.

----

Personally I'm not opposed to a PJ lynch. The problem is I don't think DGB and PJ are scum together, so I want to hit the target that I think is more likely to flip red. But there's a lot of things that PJ has done that has made me go "hrrm?" and if we do lynch him today and he comes up scum, I'd definitely reassess my DGB read. So if PJ is the lynch, I'd vote him.

If glork or undo is the lynch, I probably wouldn't vote unless to hammer.

I want to take a closer look at matcham, MBL, and Glork but I probably won't get to all of them before the deadline.

[Save The Dragons]

Please forgive me if I get a little aggressive. These arguments have always caused me stress and the last thing I want to do is cause you undue stress right now.

Also sorry chamber, right here we got ourselves a good ol' fashion quote war.

----

So if PJ is the lynch, I'd vote him.

What's this business about polling everyone before casting one's vote? Just vote, why do you need permission?

Uh...I don't need permission, I want to vote for YOU. If there's a chance we can lynch you, I'm clinging on to that hope. Was that not clear?

If not, PJ is my next favorite target, I've been questioning his play this entire game.

If I had like 3 votes I'd be a happy camper and just sit back and awesomness would ensue.

But let's be honest. Deadline is in 4 days. D1 ended with a couple hours to go. Lynching you may not happen. PJ is a good compromise in my opinion.

You waited for the wagon on scumLML to reach a critical mass before voting.

I was vote 6, I believe? What does critical mass mean to you?

Do you only vote for large wagons? Oh wait - I notice that you are the FIRST voter on my wagon. That's interesting.

Maybe I'm just tired but I have no idea what your point is. I vote for people who I think are scum, sometimes for pressure but mostly for that first reason. And I don't think I was the first on your wagon anyway.

My suspicions of PJ mostly are marked from this post (it's a post you quoted from, interestingly enough).

I also really don't like anything about this:

7.)

I need both of you to trust me. Right now, okay? Please just work with me here, and I promise I will explain everything later, okay?

FoS: Albert B. Rampage

. May switch my vote soon.

1.)

Why did you feel the need to telegraph a potential vote change?

I originally had switched my vote while writing my post, but as I pared it down I downgraded to a FoS. Albert B. Rampage's post was so outrageously out of place that I could see myself just switching my vote the next morning even without more content being added.

Given Albert B. Rampage was apparently just quoting something, the FoS is retracted.

I don't follow why this wasn't just a vote, considering with nothing new changing you were willing to vote. If you wanted to keep pressure on MafiaSSK, why would you switch (with no new content), and if you didn't, why wouldn't you?

I'll admit it was a silly thing for ABR to say. But it was said in a rapidfire of weird posts (that I didn't get the reference to either). If you think he was faking breadcrumbing a power role, for instance, it seems like a weird way to go about it, especially when there was only a little pressure his way.

<Snip>

Vote: PJ

This one is kind of a reiteration of my previous case (but it also means you had two chances to find it).

I'm still pretty happy with PJ. The whole "weak" vs. "strong" doesn't sit well with me. The other problem is the whole ABR thing. I completely agree that "give me X days" or "trust me" is a scum tell. A lesser point is that there was more going on there, it wasn't just that. It was clear ABR was doing something weird (which turns out to be quoting Breaking Bad). If it were just that, I'd leave it alone. But the greater point is that he played chicken with his vote.

On Day 2, here's a place where I'm questioning his behavior.

On a related note:

Now some follow-up questions for mathcam. It should be noted that I did not realize your +1/-1 system would not even give

post numbers

.

It seems to me you're using your questions to trap people. This seems like a repeat of your VitR baiting yesterday, with the exception that mathcam "stepped in it."

You asked for notes, mathcam deliviered, and you scrutinize it (which is valid because his opinions on LML, Bookitty, and ABR don't match up with his system).

It seems to me that your traps are as likely to catch scum as they are townies who screw up. How do you keep the latter out?

With that in mind, would you like to revise your statement that I've made no case on PJ/seem to have no interest in a case on PJ, or would you like to discredit it somehow? Either way I'm not going to touch the two questions that relate to my lack of case/desire to hone in on PJ since it's not true.

Thanks ahead for taking the time to answer my many questions.

How am I not supposed to think you came to the conclusion that I was scum and are now trying to build a case around it?

How is your little trail of breadcrumbs against me any different from what you are (erroneously) accusing me of doing with PJ? (I mean, except for the scumpairng part).

Further, with regards to players with suspicious stances on ABR & myself, you chose to focus on mathcam, and ask him the below question, let me again jog your memory:

Umm...I asked mathcam because he made a series of posts that with the viewpoint that you are town, make mathcam look bad. I wasn't finding him suspicious for not believing in an ABR-DGB scumpairing. Hell I never even said I found mathcam suspicious, just that it piqued my curiosity and that I wanted to go chasing through his posts to give him a second look.

I feel like now I might be wasting my time. My read was conditional on you being town and I don't think I'm going to ever be convinced of that.

Meanwhile I looked at PJ's interactions with STD. They are very few; what there is, is very neutral in tone, and very "arm's length" - mostly answering other people asking about STD, so predominantly third party interactions.

Honestly, I don't know. I do not have a good grasp on Save the Dragons' play.

I like how you've already said this.

(6)

"Honestly, I don't know. I do not have a good grasp on Save the Dragons' play. LoudmouthLee's reasons were weak, but that is consistent with Save the Dragons being of either alignment."

I think this points to PJ & STD being scum together.

[Save The Dragons]

Hey PJ, did you get undo's permission to claim for him?

Why does this matter?

[Save The Dragons]

So the truth is, I still want to lynch DGB. Doesn't look like that is happening.

Unvote

Attempting pragmatism, here are a few other candidates and how I feel about them. Sorry for the pain in the ass long post.

----

MATHCAM! Mathcam

mathcam

mathcam

mathcam

As far as MafiaSSK is concerned, I found his theory to be inaccurate but not necessarily anti-town. I'm not sure if I have anything specific about his play that strikes me as anti-town. I'll take a look.

587 states that he likes MafiaSSK's vote for CES, although he doesn't like all the reasons how he arrived at that conclusion. One of the reasons he did like was that MafiaSSK called CES out for his Seol obession.

His next paragraph presents reasoning for why Bookitty is suspicious, mostly for Seol's actions. If Seol is suspicious, how come CES's suspicions of him, possibly jokey at first, didn't become legitimate on their own?

I love his response to PJ's question though.

611 contains an FOS for undo. While I agree undo's choice of wording is a bit lolworthy, I think he's not wrong with his general analysis (that mathcam keeps his vote for a poor reason and eventually switches to the wagon at the time, even though he claims he cannot find a reason for his suspicion.)

I have a slightly higher than average scum read on her, and slightly higher than average expectation of information from her lynch. We also have no risk of hitting a power role with this lynch, but quite possibly a lynch of a scum making the only possible safe claim at this point. I find it unlikely that we'll find a better lynch opportunity today.

Mathcam has yet to really give a case on Bookitty, other than a holdover mention of how Seol was scummy.

I don't really find his statements about VT being a "safe" claim as suspicious, but even so throughout he gives no inkling as to why bookitty is a high scum read for him.

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him. I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote. He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

As far as this paragraph goes, in his previous post, he calls LML paranoid. In this paragraph, he calls him not scummy, but then lists him in his top 5.

In the end I'm not really sure what to think about the +1/-1 thing, other than I'm not sure what the purpose of him doing the +1/-1 thing is, like he said it's not really directly correlated with his voting pattern. Suspect prozac is absent from the list, ABR is possitive, Boo is possitive, LML is negative. To me it almost seems like he's doing it just to do it, which doesn't necesarrily mean it's anti-town, it just exists but maybe he's not really using it. But I don't really know. I didn't like the way PJ asked mathcame for post numbers (but I guess I was wrong about PJ). Then again I'm not a huge fan of 1083. I feel like he's explained how the +/- works to track gut reads but I'm not seeing how he's using it to influence his decisions at all.

1011 His case on porochaz is lacking. He makes a case on ABR, and explains some of his reads which are nice, but once again there's not really much of a case.

I'm not so sure that the posts suggest an oscillation of opinion towards DGB. It seems like you placed her in the "not sure" category at the beginning of the day. Your exchange with her does not imply you think she's suspicious for her actions, but I'm not sure if that means you're scum and she's town or if you're both scum or if you were just to exacerbated to post "FOS: DGB" or something.

VERDICT:

I'd be willing to lynch mathcam.

----

MBL! MBL

mbl

mbl

mbl

294 is the first real post of the game. I thought VitR was right: MBL posted commentary on the goings on so far, he expressed some suspicion of LML, but barely touched his Tigris vote.

While I admit I was the one who put MBL on the defensive in 786, I personally don't like how he spent the post dragging my name through the mud and then agreed with me. Maybe my tone could have been a bit less vicious, and in that regard it's not unreasonable for him to have that response.

I don't really like the KK wagon but I've said my peace on that. It's not apparent that MBL is voting KK because he thinks he's scum or for pressure (feel free to point out where I'm wrong).

MBL expresses suspicion of LML early in the game, and the day of the lynch explains his suspicions of LML.

1297 is very pretty. undo is only mentioned once. One of the reasons for the suspicion on undo is that he was not around, but being on V/LA doesn't excuse this. His question to undo (in the post where he votes undo) has an appeal to authority.

1328 is one I'm mistrustful of, but I think that might be simply because it's directed towards me. Even so, I thought some of the arguments in it were boldly taken out of context (which was why I was suprised when Sotty said it seemed good).

I'm not in love with his case against undo. I kind of feel the point about mathcam just escaping undo's scope is grasping at straws. Unless MBL thought undo and mathcam were scumpals, I'm not sure what that says about undo.

VERDICT:

I'd lynch MBL if I had to, but I'd rather see more from him.

----

tl;dr:

Vote: mathcam

Also in light of undo and PJ's claim a vote count would be nice, especially since I think my mathcam vote puts him close to danger.

[Save The Dragons]

I feel like mathcam has been pretty vague with his reads: he claims several people are suspicious without being able to explain why. The reasons he does give about Bookitty had to do with Seol and he also discredited it in the post he gave those reasons. Later on he insists that Bookitty is one of his top suspects.

I feel like if DGB were such a possibility in regards to him being torn between lynching ABR and DGB, there would be more specific evidence that he was interest in DGB. I can't really find any, and it makes me uncomfortable, because if DGB had pulled that cop thing with me, my posts would be more accusatory than incredulous. It's possible mathcam is more cautious than I, or it's possible he knows DGB's alignment: he knows she is town so he's not sure what to make of this crazy action (or they're both scum and this is some crazy distancing).

Another problem is that if I look at the slot with the mindset of LML's partner, some of LML's play and the slot's play makes sense. This proves little on its own but it does make me feel a little better.

I don't really care that the +/- didn't have post numbers. That's his notes, he can use them however he wants. But I'm not seeing any correlation between the +/- and anything else he's posting or voting, so it seems to me like it's just an attempt at busy work to create an artifact that appears helpful but is really doing nothing. That bothers me. I don't need a formula that converts all those pieces of data into a scum read, but I do need

something

that explains why the hell you're going to all that trouble in the first place.

There's nothing about mathcam's meta that is involved in my opinion of him, so I'm unsatisfied with the defense that people are jumping on him because of his meta and that ABR's meta is perfect. (I know that this post was in response to Yos's question, not the end all defense of everything. I bring this up more because of VitR's praise of mathcam's post, not the defense itself.) I don't find ABR's posts helpful, but at the moment I don't find his posts to be disingenuous. I think the argument against mathcam is not 100% zomg confirmed scum but it's certainly good enough for now.

[Save The Dragons]

Your (3) and (6) are the same point--humor is scummy. Sue me for trying to have fun in my one game in like three years or whatever.

I heard from someone that humor represented a guilty conscience or a need to distract though.

[Save The Dragons]

I like the fact that ABR presented a case on VitR. I feel though it's a great case if you start from the point of view that VitR is scum, but not so good if you start from VitR from a town perspective. He could have a point with the defensive posts and the posting just to post but I'm far from convinced. I will not be voting VitR today.

DGB: I find it interesting that you (imo, falsly) attacked VitR and myself for polling the thread about a lynch when you blatantly are doing that in 1641.

I'm not going to restate the case on her, but

Vote: DGB

. There's a couple of people I'd lynch if I had to but I'm getting tired of this. I hope I'm not getting tripped up in DGB's zaniness, but I'm feeling fairly confident that DGB will turn up red...it just gets harder and harder for me to see the alternative as even remotely likely.

[Save The Dragons]

#1563 feels off in various ways.

Is it the names? That was meant to be an echo, in case that wasn't clear.

DGB: I find it interesting that you (imo, falsly) attacked VitR and myself for polling the thread about a lynch when you blatantly are doing that in 1641.

She's not actually doing the same thing as VitaminR and you though?

Um...of course she isn't. She presented argument: "polling the town is suspicious." She accused us of doing that (and only us. I don't think we were the only ones, but I'm not sure). I dislike the fact that she argues this and then days later does this. I'll admit it was kind of a heat of the moment shot, but it seems consistent with her posting a lot distracting content.

[Save The Dragons]

Except the core of what she was saying made sense. Whereas you're complaining about a fairly normal post.

Then I suppose I disagree with you there.

[Save The Dragons]

@STD

, you haven't stated it plainly, but I think you find Glork townish. Can you please explain why?

Things like this:

I'm done with this. The guy's not even trying to contribute in a meaningful manner. He's just baselessly throwing shit around and hoping his voice gets heard over mine.

seem genuine.

His self meta (975) was meh, but it seems a weird thing to post as scum. Possible but unlikely.

Of the KK voters, A) it seems unlikely they're all scum and I feel more strongly about DGB being scum, and B) his vote seemed the most plausibly town.

I haven't look at his posts in extreme detail but I'm satisfied enough for now to want to look elsewhere for today.

[Save The Dragons]

If there's a bus, it's:
STD on DGB

[Save The Dragons]

Patrick your end of day votecount is inaccurate.

Vote: DGB

I'm still pretty sure she's going to flip red so I'm going to get right to it.

[Save The Dragons]

Putting your name in green is a little distracting (I'm not saying "hee hee you're obv scum you should put your name in RED").

That said I much prefer scumputer DGB to every other DGB I've seen so far in thread.

I'm under the impression that one of mathcam or DGB is scum, but unlikely both so for now I'd like to keep my vote there. I would support a mathcam lynch if one became relevant. But I will look at CES and Bookitty a little closer just in case, since I don't think your analysis on the mathcam wagon is wrong.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm under the impression that one of mathcam or DGB is scum, but unlikely both

Please explain this.

Eh, I'm not going to say it's impossible, but the "cop" exchange that DGB/mathcam had kind of dissuades me.

I mean, this seems like a weird way of bussing your partner:

mathcam

Hey PJ

Vote mathcam

I think ABR is hinting at a guilty result

I feel like if DGB is town, the way mathcam handled that was kind of like a cautious scum who knows DGB is town. Actually I could see mathcam's play as trying to distance if they're both scum but it just seems more likely that one is scum and one's not, particularly looking at it from DGB's play with regards to mathcam.

[Save The Dragons]

I'd actually be okay with a CES wagon. It seems likely there are scum on the quick-forming undo wagon as well:

undo (8) -- MrBuddyLee, Glork, chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Yosarian2, Porochaz, Untrod Tripod, Seol/Bookitty.

...but at the moment I really want to know if I'm truly alone on my "DGB is scum" island.

[Save The Dragons]

How does the scumputer differentiate between "wagonyness" and "scum?" If you're taking points based on the probability that there's scum on every wagon, then you are forcing anyone who's shifted their vote around a lot to end up with a higher score.

Generally I use the total number of points because scum has a tendency to wagon more.

If that's the end result, why go through all this trouble? Why not just count the players that have bandwagoned? I'm seeing some of the patterns but to be honest I see a bunch of numbers and then there's a couple posts saying XXXX is bad, XXXXX is better, etc. 1867 is unhelpful, it's a copout to a genuine question. I guess...what is the scumputer actually telling you? I'm concerned that we're going to spend the next (real) day or so just trying to decipher/correct/weed through the data when I have no idea what we'll gain from talking about it.

----

I'm under the impression that one of mathcam or DGB is scum, but unlikely both

Can you point me to why it has to be one or the other?

At the end of D2, that was the impression that I got. I looked back and DGB's posts and I suppose I could be wrong (called MafiaSSK town twice D1, for example); I could see a potential pairing (but I'd have to ignore the cop thing).

I do find them both suspicious. But I feel that if DGB is scum, mathcam is probably town due to the cop thing, and if mathcam is scum, his posts in response to DGB make me suspect she is town. I do not think that if one turns up town the other MUST be scum.

[Save The Dragons]

Your probability still takes into consideration that there is scum on every wagon, even if you take out the flipped ones. With this in mind, if I jump on more wagons, I'm going to get more points.

What does the average points per maxwagon imply?

Yes, I saw that post...I quoted it.

You said "yosarian looks really bad." Why? You said VitR, Poro look better, CES looks worse. Why? ...etc.

[Save The Dragons]

Is your scumputer crap?

[Save The Dragons]

I've honestly never seen it before. I think my point is valid about bias on finding wagoners, but I've only looked at it for 30 minutes.

You should be saying that the scumputer is crap because I'm scum.

Not because it favors wagon-happy players.

I think you know I'm town.

Ah! I lost it...where did that damn thing go? Oh...I knew I had it when day began. Where is it? Where is my blasted vote? Oh! There it is. You have it!

[Save The Dragons]

STD's response to Zor was less playing the game and more defusing the bomb. Now, I'm the position of knowing Zor was town so its easier to see but a reread of that interaction knowing that makes it stand out.

Damn. You caught me.

My post recognizing that the way people were treating your predecessor's post as pro-town when it seemed pretty clearly independant of alignment, thus presenting people from misreading the slot, when in fact I was not the first to post such a thing since CES posted the same point and people seemed to ignore it, is clearly the most damning piece of evidence in this thread and identifies me as the scummiest person in the town, thus worthy of your vote.

GG I concede.

----

It's based on a random distribution of scum on wagons, and excuse me, but there are always a few scums on a typical team that wagon hard.

This is the initial assumption that you are making, which if untrue, pretty much debunks your entire scumputer and it becomes nothing more than a giant program for counting how many wagons people attended (for instance, myself and ABR seem to have ended up at the top, while MBL seems to be on the bottom. Shocker...and don't be like "well, look at Seol/Bookitty!" because it doesn't really matter since who knows what your voodoo magic system is going to bring out but it looks strongly corrilated between wagons and points.)

If you think I'm way off base, plug in UT to your scumputer and tell me if it determines if UT is scum or town.

My doubt comes from the fact that if you were scum you probably would have just been like "STD's on top, vote!" but you didn't (then again that might be too unsubtle). But...then you polled the town to see if that was a valid option and got a couple of "nays," so you're content to try these cute little potshots saying "you know I'm town, don't you?"

The conclusion I'm drawing is that this is just riduculous, it is NOT science just because you say it is, it is probablity with an assumption that is debatable. I hope that no one gives into this craziness just because it exists and may have "worked" in the past. If DGB is town it's relatively unhelpful and if DGB is scum it is pretty much useless.

The reactions to the scumputer results can be really telling.

This is the EXACT same thing as what you did yesterday with your "mathcam I found a cop with a guilty on you!"

You say something absolutely absurd, catch someone responding and saying that because they were flustered (or rather, that they responded not in the EXACT way that they're apparently supposed to according to you) they're obvscum.

How the heck does this even work when you're town? I assume you MUST do this when town because otherwise I don't know why you're still alive. I'm assuming that you don't have a heap of votes on you because everyone's like "oh, that's just how she plays." I am baffled that people went from "I'm suspicious of DGB" to "oh, good analysis DGB" in one post that was basically a post you regurgitated and I curse all the scum that likely took CTD's life in this game, as he was a vote against you.

I'm trying not to get trapped by your playstyle, but focusing on how you are using it. From that vantage point it seems pretty clear to me what you are doing. If you really are town and I'm caught then I would be astonished. I do not plan on removing my vote baring something drastic, because this is getting tiresome.

I refuse to further indulge in this distracting farce, which is really just another tally mark in the total number of distracting farces you have done this entire game. (If you tried really hard you could probably bait me into responding, but I'm going to do my best to resist the urge).

[Save The Dragons]

I'm trying not to get

trapped

by your playstyle, but focusing on how you are using it. From that vantage point it seems pretty clear to me what you are doing. If you really are town and I'm

caught

then I would be astonished. I do not plan on removing my vote baring something drastic, because this is getting tiresome.

[Save The Dragons]

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

Joke or truth???

Damn. You caught me.

GG I concede.

[Save The Dragons]

Yosarian: What do you think of mathcam's opinion of CES? 1894

[Save The Dragons]

Zzzzz

I have yet to understand a single one of your posts. If you want to lynch me blindly over one "tell" in 2000 posts then w/e but if you are expecting a response from me you're going to have to explain yourself. The fact that you're so deadset on this one thing and just say "look, he totes did it again!" makes me wary.

---

(3) How do you feel about the fact that CES

hasn't

really vouched for your townness in the same way that you have for him? Shouldn't he be just as familiar with your town/scum play as you are with his?

Do you have siblings?

---

The play of the masons there is just objectively bad though?

(shrug) They're trying to pressure you to act in a more pro-town way, as PJ defines the term; agree or disagree with the details, that's generally a reasonable thing to do, and it's pretty much exactally what I would expect from a coldly logical player like PJ who's used to demanding answers and getting them when someone just flatly refuses to answer questions for no good reason.

No, not (shrug). They're removing two votes from this sputtering town in an attempt at some policy lynch that's not going to happen. I would be ecstatic if chamber made better posts, but I don't really think there's much I can personally do. I don't think his hiding information is necessarily being anti-town (it doesn't mean it's not, but it doesn't seem to be the reason PJ is voting for him). What you expect from PJ hardly makes the play any less good or bad.

This is very badposting. Bitching about the play of the masons so as to look like you're doing something without actually doing anything useful yourself?

Eh, around the same time he makes a case on Sotty, he agrees with chamber that chamber is also being a bit petty, and he defends himself against PJ. I mean, it's not like he was being super useful, but it's also not like he popped in the thread from absence and posted this one thing.

It feels like a reasonable post to me, and like I think I made clear, I'd rather lynch CES then mathcam today.

My concern is that you accuse mathcam of not scumhunting today after that post, in 1914, so what do you think of his decision to vote the person you were voting at the time?

---

Not seeing VitR still.

I'm going back and forth on mathcam, not sure how I feel about him.

I've been staring at MBL's hand for five minutes and I'm missing what the lists are supposed to be.

No point in keeping my vote tidally locked on DGB if no one else is interested.

ISOing CES I get nothing. No indication of town play, no indication of scum play, nothing. I don't know if I'm just starting to get burnt out or what. I don't like the undo wagon from yesterday, and I agree with some of the points brought up today (buddying chamber comes to mind).

Unvote, Vote: CES

[Save The Dragons]

@STD:

Nope, only child.

Your point 3 was wrong. If you had a sibling, you probably would have realized it, and were intentionally pushing some craplogic.

[Save The Dragons]

Nope, I'm not having this argument. It's a town tell for me on you so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not "expecting" a response. From you at least.

Too bad I like to talk.

StD's response to Zor wasn't centered around discourse. It was a very focused kind of dismissal.

As far as I'm concerned I corrected a dangerous assumption a few people were making, and haven't really said anything else about him.

Your argument is "well, I know I'm town, so I know STD was doing a bad," rings kind of hollow.

If that's incorrect then I'm sorry, I don't understand your posts.

When DGB's magic cauldron started brewing and pointing its nightmare arrows his way the response was "that's shit."

A viewpoint shared by many other members of the town. I also explained why it was shit. Which you seemed to ignore in favor of taking my post out of context and quoting my one post asking if the scumputer was crap.

Lastly, the post you quoted (in an earlier post of yours) was in response to this mocking post:

You should be saying that the scumputer is crap because I'm scum.

So forgive me if I get a little frustrated when I'm trying to figure out what was going on in the shitstorm DGB launched on the thread, tried to ask whether it was legit, pointed out a fallacy that I found, and basically got told that I'm scum for doing my due diligence. I don't know if she's scum or not, I'm pretty sure she is but if I'm wrong I'd like to figure out. Throwing crap in my face just makes me want to ignore her because she's distracting me.

This is also my first time seeing the scumputer so I'm going to be a little more like "wtf is going on" and a little less "oh it's just DGB, doin' her thing."

and then half-joking dismissals.

Not the town affrontery kind.

The scum "caught for the wrong reasons kind".

I'll never tell a joke again.
(sorry, that might be too subtle. that was a joke).

Much like saying the lynch now is blindly decided.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

[Save The Dragons]

DGB

I'm trying to make an effort to figure out your alignment and not just be stubborn. I admit I've been pretty stubborn this game sometimes. When I tried to engage in rational discourse about your methods, you blew it up in my face to try and get a reaction from me. Shockingly when you accuse people of lying, whether they are or not they're going to get flustered so I'm not really sure what the point of it all is. I don't see your playstyle catching scum, I see it catching everyone offguard, and I see it as an easy tool for you to use as scum.

But I'm sure as hell Spyrex has not given me a fair shake. Look at Spyrex's case against me and tell me honestly if you think it's legit or just crap.

But honestly I kind of expect you to quote one thing I said and ignore the bulk of it (I even have a guess as to which line) so maybe I should just go back to ignoring you.

---

GC

I looked back at your post and realized I misinterpreted it. My bad. It doesn't matter, I still think you're town.

Also I'm curious why you care so much that it's ABR who looks at my posts, but I doubt I'll get an answer to that so I'll let it be.

---

Masons

It doesn't sound like the masons actually think chamber is scummy. You've made your point, I don't think people are going to vote chamber atm and I don't think chamber's going to change his play.

---

VitR and Yos

VitR's case on Sotty looks like scumhunting to me. I think his recent defense seems genuine. I've personally had the same mindset when it came to many of his points throughout the game, and I'm still unconvinced that he's done all the things ABR said he has. That said, I'm a little surprised he's not voting for anyone at the moment.

I'm torn on whether Yos's attack on VitR is legit or not. I kind of feel like it's a differing of opinions which is hard to wade through because the masons' vote on chamber is polarizing from more of a political, not scum/town standpoint (if that makes sense).

[Save The Dragons]

Is there any scenario where you would decide to your case on me before ABR gets back to you about ISOing me?

[Save The Dragons]

GC: If I had asked you to explain your case against me, would you have done so or would you have been like "no, I want to hear what ABR has to say first," ?

[Save The Dragons]

I don't know if this is more or less annoying than just posting a response to each of this out in the open.

Spoiler: a)

a)

STD was pressured by ABR and UT to jump from Seol to LML in the first place.

The post you cite above was pressured by other players, including one townie.

I thought Seol was more likely to be scum at the time, but I didn't see a reason not to put pressure on LML. It was pretty early in the day.

I'd disagree that I was pressured, but that line of thought dissolves into "I think you're scum!" vs. "but I know I'm town..."

Spoiler: b)

b) Server crashed two days later, and as soon as it came back up seven days later, STD unvoted LML to vote PJ and LML unvoted STD to vote UT. Note that LML's reason for voting UT was something LML's analysis shows STD was also doing, yet LML chose to switch from STD to UT right after a seven day server outage. STD gives absolutely no reason for unvoting LML or for voting PJ. Frankly, reeks of daytalk over the outage or at least reeks of opportunism to get off each others' wagons.

I can't really argue over the speculative part since my argument again is "no you're wrong about that because that's not what happened."

I can't really argue over what the hell LML was doing; I can only guess, so I'm not going to bother.

Someone (DGB it turns out) has actually already accused me of giving no reason for switching to PJ, and I responded showing my reason for switching to PJ.

I won't quote it, but 1496 contains me quoting myself explaining why I thought PJ was suspicious.

Also here's my response to you from a similar point you tried to make yesterday that you have ignored.

Unvote, Vote: Zorblag

I'm number 1!

<snip>

Vote: PJ

If later in the day we all decide to lynch LML, please, please, please don't be surprised if I jump on that wagon hardcore.

Part of that <snip> includes my suspicions of PJ. Voting for Zorblag was a joke. I suppose that you're more concerned with the unvote, but honestly I wasn't sure that LML was going to get lynched at that time, so I moved on to another target, with that stipulation at the end (that I realize may look even more like distancing, but once again I had one vote).

Spoiler: c)

c) Despite voting PJ, STD wants us all to know he really really still wants to lynch LML. LML also IGMEOYs STD as he unvotes him. Such hyper-awareness of the perception/risk of unvoting each other.

I regret I have but one vote to give for my town.

Spoiler: d)

d) STD jumps to Bookitty basically saying "she's scum because

'Seol'

aaaaaaand for

defending LML

." So LML's almost certainly scum but Bookitty needs to hang because she's defending LML? Ass-backwards.

X

I'm going to color code my post for you.

Bookitty is scum because:

A) Seol was suspicious.
Seol jumped on an easy wagon hiding behind a rhetoric reason that seemed like low-hanging fruit. I've beaten this point to death, and I still feel like some of those people are scum.

Seol then posts next to nothing. It's early enough in the day. He evades detection. The wagon fizzles. whether he just completely crapped out or whether he wanted to lie low, I can't really say.

Stuff like this:

So I'll ask a seemingly useless question right back at you as you did to Tigris: Why is my (mostly theory based) opinion on bandwagons scummy enough to warrant a vote?

Because it favours scum. Either you're wrong or you're scum (with an inclusive or), and in a game full of experienced players, I give less credence to being wrong.

is simply justification to grab that low hanging fruit: "the theory he's spewing is bad, but since he's supposed to be smart, his bad theory is likely due to him being scum."

But to be honest, in the same post he points out the following about MafiaSSK

The arguments against CES are super,

super

stretching: he hasn't said nearly enough to read in that level of intent, and taking what he has said at face value is just disingenuous.

That's bad, but particularly so in that the theme of 156 is "this is why pushing RVS wagons is good: look at all the info we can get from it" - but that info is nonsense. It feels like artificial suspicion, like he's decided he needs to attack the people who were late on the wagon and then, given that, constructed reasons to suspect them.

Which is accurate. At this point I don't agree that MafiaSSK's behavior is scummy, but it is a bit out there and I can see both scum hungry for the easy lynch and townies falling into that trap.

Overall I don't think it's damning but I am leaning towards Seol being scum.

In 466 Bookitty basically defends LML. (This is bad because LML is scum too but I know not everyone agrees with me yet so I won't dwell on that).

Then there's this post.

Is LML a town read for you at this point? I'm getting the real feel of having your cake and eating it too so I would like you to clarify your opinion on him.

LML is a null-leaning-scum read for me. The scum part is:

He pulls his vote off STD and then votes UT for the EXACT SAME thing. His VCA actually shows that. I realize he's only got one vote, but why switch it at the point he does and then blame it on his VCA? That's not reading honest to me. STD ducked my question on that, but I would be interested to know how STD sees that move. To me, it was the scummiest thing LML did all game and it made me look hard at STD as a result.

The town part is:

I've read the game several times over the last few days. I still don't have it down, but I guess that's normal for a large game. But I notice that LML is the target of choice for a lot of people with not a lot of reasoning. I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.) I just gave my reason for thinking he might be scum; so far as I recall, I'm the only one who noted that exact thing. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember reading anyone on LML's wagon and saying, AHA, you think what *I* think.) The reasons given aren't as good as that one in my eyes, which makes me think that some of the people on LML's wagon are scum without real motivation except finding a convenient wagon. Which, in turn, makes me think that LML might be town after all.

For me the disconcerning part is that she seems to think I'm suspicious because:

4.)

Why, if LoudmouthLee's switch to Untrod Tripid was scummy, did LoudmouthLee's Vote Count Analysis "make you look hard" at Save the Dragons as a result? Were you looking for potential LoudmouthLee and Save the Dragons connections?

(at this point I don't think she's going to answer so I'm going to stop biting my tongue).

She seems to imply guilt by association, then removes the scumminess off of LML. She then spends some time in her PBPA to build a case against me, even though she no longer thinks LML is scum, so I'm not sure why she thinks I'm scum. The case she builds on me is highly inaccurate to fact.

From my point of view, she seemed to want to decide I was scum and attack me before constructing evidence for it, which makes me quite curious.

Another reason she seems to think that LML and I are scum together is because of the way LML stopped voting for me (which again is weird if she thinks LML is town). The thing about that is it selectively ignores LML's argument about UT jumping on the Nat wagon. Had she outright dismissed it, then maybe I would be less irked, but she mentioned that the reasoning LML voted for me and for UT was exactly the same, when in his post, it's clear that it isn't.

I don't know. To me it seems like she picked a target and then tried to justify it, which I think is pretty much the same reason PJ is voting for her (except for how she did it to PJ).

Honestly, take your pick of reasons to vote for Bookitty.

Oh wait, there's a whole 'nother reason that I chose to vote for Bookitty that you selectively ignore, in favor to point out that the LML tie in is bad (which I said in context was bad.)

Spoiler: e)

e) STD repeatedly draws attention to how he's not voting LML because no one else finds LML scummy yet.

In my mind, LML clearly tried to smear me with shit reasoning. He accused me of strangeness when I voted undo, and when I explained myself, he ignored it. He targeted specifically bandwagony players. All the MafiaSSK hate made me uncomfortable. I don't know, he seemed pretty likely to be scum to me.

Am I supposed to be happy about the fact that I'm watching people leave the LML wagon? Should I have just vote parked and walked away? If you like, I'll vote for DGB right now and won't say a word for the rest of the game, but I don't think that's the most useful use of my time, it's not going to confirm or deny whether I'm right about her, and I don't think that's going to be fun for me.

Spoiler: f)

f) (Slight/possible pro-town point for STD) When STD gets off Boo and back on LML June 9th, the count is Boo 8, PJ 2, LML 4. STD cannot vote PJ because both of his top suspects, Boo and LML, are on PJ. So STD has to choose between staying on Boo or switching back to LML who he's been calling out all day. This is townish if Boo is town, except that... UT asks STD why not stay on Boo, STD says "because the Boo wagon aint happening". STD's move from Boo to LML is less townish because Glork, ABR, Yos, DGB just hard defended Bookitty and PJ just switched off Bookitty to LML. Wind was a-blowin, and STD, if scum, must realize how shitty he'll look tomorrow if Boo flips town and he let LML slide after calling him obvscum much of D1.

It seems to me that some of your more speculative points on me could be answered with "STD just thought more than one person was suspicious."

I'm trying to recall a moment in this game where you had more than one suspicion and I cannot think of any. Please alert me if I am wrong, but to me this just kind of boils down to different playstyles.

Spoiler: g)

g) Admits he'll move his vote if either the PJ wagon or the Boo wagon picks up steam, possibly fishing for a chance to leave the LML-wagon, possibly calling for help from scumpartners:

Possibly indeed. It couldn't possibly have something to do with a deadline approaching the next day, could it?

Forgive my naivete but I was unsure that anyone was going to get lynched, I thought too many people were saying "nah, XXXX is town" on all 3. Just because 10 votes rallied right before the deadline in one game didn't exactly give me faith that it would happen in this one.

I was of the opinion all 3 could potentially be scum, so I was honestly content with any of them.

Spoiler: h)

h) votes PJ out of the block D2. Does that really make a ton of sense given that PJ switched from Boo to LML before STD did and attacked LML much of D1 like STD did?

Why wouldn't it? I'm not alone in being suspicious of PJ. Even my archnemesis DGB thought PJ was scum. Just because we happened to share one opinion doesn't prove that he's the same alignment as me.

A lot of your case is quite speculative that I'm doing these things because I'm scum. I did a lot of these things because:

a) lynching people gives us valuable information
b) I can only vote for one person.

If you look at it from that mindset, do my actions make sense?

[Save The Dragons]

Would vote

4)Untrod Tripod

6) DrippingGoofball

8) undo
11) Petroleumjelly

14) LoudmouthLee

20) Yosarian2
21) Seol

Vote: PJ

If later in the day we all decide to lynch LML, please, please, please don't be surprised if I jump on that wagon hardcore.

OH yeah ABR, that's soooooo town LOL

Hey DGB your nitpick on me was broken so I fixed it for you.

Sorry I was wrong partway through D1. Next time I'll try and do better and get 100% accuracy.

[Save The Dragons]

I get the sensation that none of those wagoners (PJ, Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons) were scum and therefore you included LML's "FOS" to make your argument fit. It's so weird to me to include an FOS when doing a wagon analysis.

Again, I feel like I'm looking at this from the point of view that people have multiple targets and you are looking at the point of view that people have one target. Yeah, the FOS is kind of flimsy when compared to a vote, but honestly if you saw a bunch of your scumpartners jumped on a wagon, would you rather jump on yourself or say "hey, I'm planting my flag here and maybe I'll get back to it later." That may or may not have been the case but by post 113 that was fine for me.

Did you, by post 113, assume that none of those wagoners were scum? Now I think all those people are likely town and I was likely mistaken, but then I really didn't have a way of knowing...

Your minimalist case on him was weird too, based entirely on this wagon:

I agree, that compelled a lot of my reason for suspecting him. I looked back and didn't find much that I posted regarding my suspicioun of him other than that FOS. There is this:

I don't particularly like the fact that what LML has accused me of I have rebutted and I get no kind of response other than "I still think he's scum." Tbh i'm having trouble separating the emotional "What? I'm not scum! How dare yee!" part of things.

I don't know. It's possible that I overplayed my read on him then because his response left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm overplaying my read on him now because he turned out to be scum.

Also, you seemed to be implying that you left the LML wagon because it "wasn't happening", but you didn't really give it much of a chance or even make a significant case before bailing for PJ after the server restart. The PJ wagon was even less happening than LML..

It appears I was mistaken about that being the reason I left the LML wagon; I left a few wagons for those reasons, but actually looking back I don't think that was it for that one. I don't really remember why I specifically left LML after the server crash. It's possible I looked at PJ and thought him more suspicious at the time, or that I wanted to try something else after the crash, but I can't give you a concrete answer to that.

Another thing that bothered me about you, which Bookitty touched on before, was this:

@SaveTheDragons What did you think of LML's justification for taking his vote off you and putting it on UntrodTripod? Do you think that jumping from wagon to wagon is more scummy or not scummy?

As for his justification I strong suspect LML is scum but there's a wave of pro-town mania seeming to surround him.

So weird that you were immediately defensive and instead of answering Boo's "justification" question you reiterated how strongly you suspect LML and reiterated your excuse for why you weren't voting for him.

Ok, this is really starting to annoy me.

Please put post numbers or quote the entire thing, this is not the first time you've taken ONE LINE of a post of mine and implied that it was the only thing I had to say in that regard.

Spoiler: context is tech

In post 479, Bookitty wrote:@SaveTheDragons What did you think of LML's justification for taking his vote off you and putting it on UntrodTripod? Do you think that jumping from wagon to wagon is more scummy or not scummy?

I think jumping from wagon to wagon is jumping from wagon to wagon. I don't particularly think it's scummy when I do it because I'm town (please don't misread that, I'm making a point that the question appears obviously loaded, not that I think it's scummy otherwise).

As for his justification I strong suspect LML is scum but there's a wave of pro-town mania seeming to surround him. It's hard for me to be unbiased when I saw him attack me with shoddy logic, didn't rebut the holes I made in his arguments, and watched him claim his almighty VCA was the key to finding teh scums. The truth is I can see either PJ or UT as scum (UT for reasons entirely different than LML's magic crusade on wagoning, mind you).

I suppose you could look at it this way. If I'm town, and I think, ScummyMcScummerFace is scum, if I'm afraid I'm going to get targeted because ScummyMcScummerFace already has 6 votes, then ScummyMcScummerFace will never get lynched.

The reasoning is more important than the actual votes itself. I think LML has been kind of phoning it in, so to ultimately answer your question, well...he kind of just stated a fact (the sky is blue, the cake is a lie, UT was on X amount of wagons) and added a bit about voting for Nat. I don't really know how I feel about the Nat wagon, for me the towniness and scumminess kind of cancel and its a null tell.

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that while Seol didn't really have much to say D1, your content thus far doesn't exactly instill me with confidence that you are innocent.

So I did answer her question, added my comment about LML being scum, and found another reason I found LML suspicious (obviously not a reason I voted for him in the first place, but something on the back of my mind).

If you want to have a logical discussion I will continue to debate with you but if you just want to make broad speculations and slander me for a reaction or you're scum, then I don't want any part of it.

[Save The Dragons]

Now the remaining steps are less mathematical and a bit more voodoo, because I add up those percentages as "points" for each player in the list and I add them up.

You should be saying that the scumputer is crap because I'm scum.

Is your scumputer crap?

omg ur rite such an unreasonable response.

(For the record, this is the only post quoted by Spyrex, so if something else about my response is fishy I'm not trying to ignore it).

In case you both missed them in favor of being like "look at that one post he said out of context! looks pretty bad, amirite?" here are these posts.

1871
1874

You realize that most people who saw her scumputer before either praised it or didn't touch it with a 10-foot pole, so at best her "fishing for reactions" makes people who have never seen it before stand out, right?

[Save The Dragons]

Is there any scenario where you would decide to your case on me before ABR gets back to you about ISOing me?

Can you restate this? I'm not understanding what you're asking.

I'm just going to cut to the chase on this one: why would I ask "show me your case" if I didn't think you were going to explain why you keep mentioning ABR? If you wanted to share your case, you would have done it, but instead you seemed intent on waiting for some feedback from ABR, so I had no reason to think you would share it.

Thus I don't really understand why it is "interesting" that I asked the question I asked over yours.

[Save The Dragons]

The F?

What this isn't is "You are town, but this is bad for X" discussion.
It's also not "You are scum, doing this for Y" pushing.
Its not even "I'm trying to figure you out, lets talk about it" feelings handholding time.

Its a dismissal. Of DGB.

That's what THESE are. That's why I posted those posts in my response to CES. Since you seem to be content to ignore any attempt at rationalism, here they are in all their glory, so you cannot ignore them.

How does the scumputer differentiate between "wagonyness" and "scum?" If you're taking points based on the probability that there's scum on every wagon, then you are forcing anyone who's shifted their vote around a lot to end up with a higher score.

Generally I use the total number of points because scum has a tendency to wagon more.

If that's the end result, why go through all this trouble? Why not just count the players that have bandwagoned? I'm seeing some of the patterns but to be honest I see a bunch of numbers and then there's a couple posts saying XXXX is bad, XXXXX is better, etc. 1867 is unhelpful, it's a copout to a genuine question. I guess...what is the scumputer actually telling you? I'm concerned that we're going to spend the next (real) day or so just trying to decipher/correct/weed through the data when I have no idea what we'll gain from talking about it.

Your probability still takes into consideration that there is scum on every wagon, even if you take out the flipped ones. With this in mind, if I jump on more wagons, I'm going to get more points.

What does the average points per maxwagon imply?

Yes, I saw that post...I quoted it.

You said "yosarian looks really bad." Why? You said VitR, Poro look better, CES looks worse. Why? ...etc.

MBL accuses me of being ass-backwards. SpyreX has ONE point against me and this is, what, the second, third time I've pointed out why it's a gross mischaracterization of what I've done?

Vote:SpyreX

[Save The Dragons]

CES:

1) How many times have you seen the scumputer used before?
2) Do you believe it is accurate or not?
3) Do you think that players who have not seen it before are more likely or less likely to respond to any inherent flaws they see in it?
4) Do you think that "what is the scumputer actually telling you?", "what does the average points per maxwagon imply?" "why does these players look bad when you have a group of players with the same apparent result" seems more like an attempt to undermine the scumputer or get to the bottom of all these cryptic posts DGB launched in quick succession upon the town?

Chamber:

I'm not sure what to do about that. I'm trying to paint the picture of what actually happened, not what can be misconstrued as the truth if you look at the end result of me being scum. I don't know why LML said bus, I thought it might have been in regards to PJ but now I suspect he saw a bunch of town on his wagon and chortled to himself while he "slipped" the word bus into his post. Maybe not. I never said anything about it because I wasn't sure it was helpful to look at it at the time. I unvoted him after the break but I don't know why, I don't keep notes or anything. Maybe I thought PJ was more suspicious.

Most of the bandwagons I've jumped off were because people were saying "this person is town," which means I have less shot of lynching them if I think they are suspicious, and my vote no longer causes pressure because they're no longer in danger. I can't see how they're going to respond, I can't tell anything about them. If I kept my vote on them, (like with DGB) it's because I was pretty convinced that the person I'm voting is scum. The fact that I'm all alone in my suspicion of DGB gives me pause.

I have said several times that I wish I had multiple votes, and that I was going to be pretty liberal with my vote, since I don't know if it does any good to park it on someone forever, especially day one (with the exception of the reason I described above, I'm aware I parked my vote on DGB for much of D2 and this day.).

But I mean I can't just say "guys, I'm town. This is ridiculous," because I know you don't know that for sure, because I can see where it could look bad, but it's frustrating to watch people come out of the woodwork trying to throw crappy case after crappy case against me and not getting much of a response back.

[Save The Dragons]

Unvote

Eh. I need to take a breath. I'm going to take a more critical look at the SpyreX slot when I can.

[Save The Dragons]

farside say 5 lines of text. Votes chamber before leaving.

Nat just kind of wastes everyone's time. The bit about a fun role could mean anything, maybe indicates VT or plain mafia but Nat is under no obligation to be truthful upon (her?) departure. I think getting attacked by several players had more to do with dropping out than old playstyle, but I could be wrong. Votes Seol

zorblag finally posts interesting things. He posts a big dump of information that he made prior to playing in the game. People immediately say "how townie," which is exactly why he posted it regardless of alignment. Votes Tigris initially, changes to Porochaz.

zorblag states suspicions on GC and porochaz, the former for his belief GC's cases are manufactured, and the latter due to DGB's belief that porochaz is scum avoiding the game. He expresses interest in bookitty.

In other news, zorblag gave CES, chamber, and me a modicum of townie points for the exact reason SpyreX is damning only me for (as far as I can tell, Spyrex just mentioned an interaction with me and Zor and this is the only one I can think of). I make this point because SpyreX singled me out specifically.

In other news, as I said towards the start of the post, Cogito Ergo Sum had a good, skeptical reaction to my initial posts. He, chamber and Save the Dragons all reacted in a way that made it clear they were paying attention to or interested in motives which is the key.

inHim's posts are near indecipherable to me. The majority of his content are jokes. When he explained his vote for CTD it made a little bit of sense when explained, but if he was pushing a wagon on CTD voting him out of the blue seems kind of a weird way to do it. It might be more of a distraction.

SpyreX is eh. He gave some analysis and then has a one track mind. I don't think I can objectively read him at the moment.

farside/nat/inhim = null
zorblag = leaning town
spyrex = leaning scum

I'd lynch but I'd also love to hear something from SpyreX that isn't "lynch STD."

----

CES:

I don't understand.

DGB, is my high number because I was on a lot of wagons? I think I need a little hand holding to understand the numbers.

Do you want to look at the average number of points per wagon? I have this too.

DGB literally ignores Sotty's question and instead says "look at this shiny thing." I have no fricken clue what average number of points per wagon is supposed to mean to her so I'm not sure why it's disingenuous or obfuscating to ask her to clarify.

Also I'm pretty sure I never directly talked about my placement in the scumputer (I could be wrong). I'm trying to figure out why DGB would regularly bring out something that seems inherently flawed to me. At no point did I think that the scumputer is "plug in names, out comes scum" but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any information to give. DGB's responses pretty much make me think that there is nothing to be gained from the scumputer.

In 1871 I say that I have no idea what we'll gain from talking about, which is my fear. That can be mitigated if she explains what exactly the scumputer is telling her, not shoving it down our throats, spewing more and more information with less and less explanation of how we got there, and targeting those that happen to show up at the top.

In 1874 I'm asking about the pattern, why she's declaring some people more scummy and less scummy, hence the etc. I don't care why she thinks Yos individually is scummy, I want to know how she got there from her list. I'm not really sure how that's interpreted differently.

Lastly, pushing DGB for responses is a good way to determine if she's using this to actually find scum or if she's hiding behind it and using it to railroad someone.

Also do you think SpyreX has been actively scumhunting?

----

MBL:

Your case is highly speculative and makes a lot more sense if you selectively ignore the context of several of my posts. It is far from the greatest case in the world.

I am biased though, as I already know every case painting me as scum is not going to be correct, so to spew out that every case against me was crappy was perhaps a bit of an exaggeration. You at least attempted to put together a logical story as opposed to some other points that have been brought up against me, but I can't really say "oh good show" when you've stripped some of my posts and tried to overplay points you made, which makes me feel it's a little disingenuous.

And I never meant crappy as a dig against anyone personally just to be clear.

----

Vote: DGB

[Save The Dragons]

I do like free burritos...

[Save The Dragons]

Why would it matter what my predecessors thought about you one whit.

It doesn't but 3 people dismissed Zorblag's artifact as null alignment, and others were persuaded. Even when pointed out you still seem to only care about me.

I've actually said a lot. I've got a large set of clear reads.

Don't mistake focusing on getting what needs to be done done with "thats all I've said".

And yet the majority of your posts are directed at me.

Zor would do that as any alignment! DGB's scumputer is shit cause blueberries!

Both of these are pretty close to factually true and neither of them are indicative of alignment.

Dismiss, deflect, keep your options open.

Pretty sure more often then not in this game I've been voting DGB. Pretty sure a lot of that has to do with before she brought out the scumputer.

FFS you voted and unvoted me like someone was gonna spank you for it.

Well time for a paddlin'

Take me to dinner first.

[Save The Dragons]

And yet the majority of your posts are directed at me.

Yea, they are, because in talking to you in a perfect world it convinces the others to help murder you.

I mean if you want me to talk about people I think are town more sure I can waste time there.

Because I'm scum and everyone else is town? Scumhunt less please.

I'd lynch DGB, CES, SpyreX. I'd be marginally interested in a few more people, but everyone else who has a vote right now I think is town.

Really? Doesn't she seem more assertive in that game? Reading up on this claim actually made me

more

suspicious of Sotty. It didn't take long for me to find posts in Georgetown II with aggressive scum reads (e.g. "such-and-such needs to die", "you're scum"), for example. She's being much more diplomatic in this game.

I skimmed her posts in that game and personally I think she's pretty much the same. For example (from this game):

DGB really needs some lynching.

Spryex should die is what he should do.

[Save The Dragons]

Every time I try to post something new happens.

I'd be willing to compromise on Yosarian, but honestly

OMGL is scum.

After he replaced into KKscum, he lurked until today

I'd much rather lynch DGB.

[Save The Dragons]

In your face Sotty, I'm winning again.

[Save The Dragons]

Clearly OMGL is looking through the game and DGB more than once accuses him of lurking to try and diffuse his case on her, which are points genuinely made by other people in the town already. Since that's just a cherry on top of the sundae of evidence it's shocking why I'd prefer her over Yosarian.

[Save The Dragons]

STD fully waffles, especially June 25: "I don't find ABR's posts helpful, but at the moment I don't find his posts to be disingenuous."

I still stand by that ABR is likely town but in general unhelpful. He's overzealous and his reads change on a dime but stagnation helps the scum and if anything he's actively trying to push the game forward.

Yosarian's interactions with VitR today have been a little off, as has his case against undo D1, but that's not enough for me to vote Yos immediately. I need some more time (today) to spend looking at his ISO. My other problem is I'd rather go CES and it seems unlikely Yos would bring CES into the mix if they were partners.

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: CES

[Save The Dragons]

Can we all stop arguing with DGB and ABR? In my book, DGB is probably scum, ABR is probably town, but both are being really loud and really unhelpful.

I'm willing to vote CES or DGB today, I'll keep checking the thread and I'm going for whichever wagon is going to seem more possible. Gun to my head I'd compromise on Yosarian (not VitR or OGML) but at this point I think we're more likely to find scum in CES and DGB so I'm not going to do that unless I have to.

We have to stop lynching this way, though.

Cogito Ergo Sum (6) -- Sotty7, Yosarian2, Bookitty, mathcam, Save the Dragons, Green Crayons
VitaminR (3) -- undo, MrBuddyLee, OhGodMyLife
DrippingGoofball (4) -- petroleumjelly, Porochaz, Green Crayons, chamber
OhGodMyLife (2) -- SpyreX, Albert B. Rampage
Yosarian2 (3) -- VitaminR, Cogito Ergo Sum, DrippingGoofball

[Save The Dragons]

I think a couple people mentioned UT might have been vigged at the start of day.

My vote count had GC twice.

Cogito Ergo Sum (6) -- Sotty7, Yosarian2, Bookitty, mathcam, Save the Dragons, Green Crayons
VitaminR (2) -- undo, MrBuddyLee,
DrippingGoofball (4) -- petroleumjelly, Porochaz, chamber, OGML
OhGodMyLife (1) -- SpyreX
Yosarian2 (4) -- VitaminR, Cogito Ergo Sum, DrippingGoofball, ABR

[Save The Dragons]

If UT were here I feel like the DGB lynch wouldn't be failing. GC and STD I think you can swing it back to DGB by moving your votes.

Vote DGB

I should be on for the next few hours just in case.

[Save The Dragons]

[Save The Dragons]

I'm going to give CES about an hour to show up before I hammer. If someone else wants to before then, go ahead.

[Save The Dragons]

k I'm done watching this.

Vote: CES

[Save The Dragons]

Whatever SpyreX

If there is anyone active right not not on CES we need to fix that

[Save The Dragons]

Oh joy. It's this game. Can't wait until August 1st when we lynch someone 2 hours from deadline again.

Or we can get a correct lynch this time:

Vote DGB

----

mathcam and STD is a pairing that I'm liking right now.

This is weird considering your only apparent complaint with me was my hesitation to vote for your suspect Yosarian.

CES being mislynched often actually suggests nothing about his alignment in this game, so you'll forgive me if all your arguments to that effect did nothing for me yesterday.

----

The allegations that OGML was faking reading the thread are ridiculous. I was watching the thread as he was doing it, it took him hours to do. Check the post times if you must, but it seems genuine to me.

[Save The Dragons]

When I look back at CES's play and all I see are:

1) Him picking fights with townies
2) Him sheeping chamber
3) Only a few things all game that seem remotely useful.

I told him I fell for the trap of being unaware of the scumputer and he explained what town and what scum would do in that situation. I pointed out that I was doing exactly what he claimed town would do and he decided to say "let's vote STD" in his next post.

Calling me scummy for hammering CES is blatantly foolish, you're warping your own read, ignoring CES's play, and ignoring the 8 other people required to lynch someone. With everything that was said about him, I thought he was suspicious and certainly more likely to be scum that OGML. So...sorry I was wrong but I'd do it again if I didn't know his alignment.

----

Anyone who thinks that DGB is unaware of her meta is fooling themselves.

Apparently all I have to do if I draw scum is to act as blatantly anti-town as possible and throw a bunch of craplogic at the town.

You guys are aware that her "cop" antics actually did out someone as not the cop, right?

I don't know. If it's really hard for you guys to fake your town metas as scum then maybe you're hurting your own game. But all she has to do is post her neutral scumputer, claim she's a townie a billion times, and spam. That's pretty easy to fake and if you need a demonstration I'm willing to show you how easy it is to fake by creating a neutral scumputer, claim I'm town a billion times, and spam the thread. Will that convince you?

----

Post 2118 has flaws. MBL literally ignores some of the things I say in my posts to make his points look better. Like slanderous literally.

----

Yep, Bookitty wagon. She was so obviously townie D1 that a bunch of townies voted for her, and it's just so impossible that it was comprised of mostly/all townies. What the heck does mathcam wagon mean? I thought mathcam was scum and I presented reasons for that. You thought mathcam was scum for a while. You're using her terrible logic. Are you still trying or have you given up?

----

I'm a vegetarian, so I'll stake every tofu wrap in...tofuland...that DGB is scum and that you are her scumbuddy, Spyrex, blatantly coming to her rescue.

[Save The Dragons]

I didn't say it takes no effort to do; I just don't see why you can't just as easily be scum putting in a lot of effort into achieving your win condition vs town putting a lot of effort to achieve your win condition.

[Save The Dragons]

No, I was actually referring to KK for 1099...I don't think if KK were cop he'd blatantly reduce the number of people it could be but honestly I probably should have double checked because I thought he said something more definitive.

[Save The Dragons]

KK/OGML is not town.

Why? You said he "claimed" scum and then when asked to back your shit up you blew up on the person who asked you.

----

I've played with DGB a great many times. She doesn't usually put this much effort when she's scum.

The cop thing is a bad joke to get a reaction and only makes sense in her mind. But on day 1, we're all making up reasons to vote for someone or think that we see some subtle clue to an alignment, most of which stems from our own arrogance.

The scumputer, she does as town or as scum, and might get more accurate later in the game. There's no reason to follow it blindly with this many players left alive.

DGB is town.

I have to admit, DGB looks really town in these last few pages.

I feel like you are falling into a lot of the same traps that I've fallen into the past when trying to read DGB, PJ.

I've thought she's been scum for days now. It's been painstaking to lynch DGB and I'm trying to figure out why. My theory is that she's using all the tools in her box to try to appeal to those who are aware of her meta or who are willing to dismiss her objectively anti-town behavior as "nah, that's just DGB, doin' her thang."

[Save The Dragons]

Apparently it was my mistake to try and lynch the people I thought were scum.

Bookitty only seems to post whenever it benefits Bookitty to show up. Have you ever given any thought to the possibility she might be scum and that there's no scum on her wagon because it's a successful D1 wagon on scum?

Probably not. Honestly I've barely had a chance to give her a second thought because her posts get lost in a sea of crap (sorry, "high quality content spam") like this:

I will be famished

I will sink my shiny townie teeth into OGML's carrion

I will break his bones and suck out the rich marrow

And I will bless you all for the offering and the spilling of his blood

[Save The Dragons]

I think DGB was off voting UT and KK, and I think Inhim wasn't even around, so that's where a lot of the scum team was.

[Save The Dragons]

It's nobody's fault PJ left. Honestly the connotation of "oldy" mafia for me implies verbose postage with cases built upon people and discourse. It's no better or worse than "new" style mafia. But it is different. I think jumping into a game that you think is going to follow the old style and then watching it collapse into a shouting match, some personal digs at each other, etc. has made the game not fun for him. He shouldn't have left, but I don't blame him especially with the last, like, 30 pages.

Sorry for bringing it up again, I <3 PJ.

----

I think town are exhausted from being run around and I think scum are more happy and roaring to go. As long as we're still indecisive and lynching at deadline I'm sure the scum are laughing.

----

ABR-your case on OGML at the top of this page isn't bad (except the last line. and for the record I disagree; I think OGML was playing both in the past and in the present.) But I don't understand why your case didn't come right after

Quote the scum claim.

and instead you argued with GC and harassed him, frustrated he didn't get the same result as you.

----

If DGB is town I need an example of her actually being town, I need something more concrete than "that's just her town play" or "trust my town read" because honestly I don't get why it can't just as easily be her scum play. I don't care if "oh that's not what she does as scum" because I don't see the point of keeping an obvious overt scum meta.

[Save The Dragons]

He try's to use your method against you, but both uses a single wagon instead of an aggregate of sources (as you do) and removes his town reads, which defeats the purpose anyway.

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just dense, but DGB has removed mathcam, ABR, and herself from her scumputer to make the results look more damning for me.

2949 is pretty much everything I've wanted to say (and/or) have said regarding DGB.

I understand that a lot of votes are headed my way because of PoE and stuff LML said so I can't really defend myself against that.

I'm town. Please stop this madness. If you don't want to vote DGB, then arg. I don't know what to say.
But I'm town and I'm either right or I've been tricked by DGB's objectively anti-productive behavior. If you think she's town, fine. If you think her behavior has not been objectively anti-productive, then I'm probably just fucking done with this game because I don't know anymore; every day has been pulling teeth and it's getting less and less fun to ride it out. I'm getting too old for this shit (that last line is a movie quote reference, I refuse to quit or replace out.)

LML probably targeted a bunch of protown players, how I don't hold any credence to his "bus" comments. He's scum and he's smart.

DGB was noticeably absent from the one wagon that proved to be scum, and helped bring legitimacy to a counter wagon on KK. DGB is scum and KK's slot is less likely to be scum.

Meh. I could repeat myself over and over and over again and hope that you finally realize what's going on here, rushing to mislynch me is not doing the town any favors. I'll claim if I must.

[Save The Dragons]

Forgive me, I'm really upset because I stupidly clicked that little X and lost a large post I was working on.

UNVOTE: mathcam
VOTE: Save The Dragons

Albert, ISO STD and then get in on this.

@STD:

Also I'm curious why you care so much that it's ABR who looks at my posts, but I doubt I'll get an answer to that so I'll let it be.

Oh, I'm happy to answer this. I think it's interesting that this is your question, rather than the obvious one: "why are you voting me?" You care enough about my position to pose a question relating to it, but the question only indirectly addresses my position and, even then, you undercut the imperative for me to answer it.

First of all, these two are ridiculous. You try to paint me as being bussed by LML, then you ask someone to ISO my posts, then you harp on my question even though I pointed out exactly why it would have been stupid for me to ask the question you "found it so strange I didn't ask"?

GC, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and tell us all what the hell is in my ISO that made you think I'm scummy?

Post for DGB incoming.

[Save The Dragons]

I've tried to ascertain if you were town, DGB, on D3. I asked legitimate questions about your scumputer and you, (and later SpyreX and CES), basically spat in my face even after I pointed out the fact I had never seen it before AND it is objectively unreliable. You want to use it to determine who's bandwagony? Fine. You want to use it to determine scum? Fallacy. You should know that, and that's what frustrates me.

I'm trying to ascertain it now because everyone seems convinced that you're just being yourself and you couldn't possibly play this way if you were scum, which is confusing to me. Make a lot of noise, post a lot of fluff, kick up as much dust as possible to a point where you're often actively distracting the town, and get called town for it because "that's just how you roll?" Sounds like a good strategy to me, but I haven't played in 6 years and last time I saw you, if I recall correctly you played a lot differently.

This is the first time you've remotely considered the possibility that we're both town. As for me, I'm often wrong. I don't fucking know because it seems like everyone is convinced you're town, and I'm spending a lot of my time trying to wrestle with my read and PJ's opinion vs. everyone else's meta read. I don't like meta as an argument personally and I have tried to avoid it all game but I'm not sure if that's a good gameplay strategy anymore. (for the record the only time I think I mentioned someone else's meta was in regards to Sotty, and I was arguing VitR's opinion that Sotty wasn't as aggressive in that game. But if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).

Your scumputer put Sotty, a townread and mason at the top, ABR, a town read for me, at the top. It is clear to me your scumputer is not helpful, it seems clear to many others that it is not helpful, and I got burned because I tried to figure out if you were carefully pruning the numbers or just picking a tell that may be more likely to be true and exacerbating it.

I have townread chamber, Porochaz, undo, sotty, UT, ABR, OGML, and VitR, so lack of townreads is incorrect. OGML definitely was mentioned today, and I believe ABR was. If not, VitR, OGML, ABR, Poro, chamber and sotty was mentioned yesterday.

I made a case against SpyreX yesterday and I was unconvinced on CES. The day before I explained why I thought mathcam and MBL were scummy. I made a case on you. D1 I made cases on LML and PJ. I have been making cases with the limited time I've had to play.

When you say things like "Hint: here's the answer" in response to a question it makes me doubt you want me to answer any of your questions, so forgive me if I ignored your post previously. 3194 is a legit post from you.

If you're town, the scumputer would work magic for you...

I'm going to stop you right there. The scumputer

is

crap. Yes, SpyreX. It is crap. Objectively. Quote this post next time, instead of the half-joking post that you took out of context and strawmanned against me. I pointed out a fallacy and do not wish to ever speak of the scumputer again. If you want to call it "the bandwagon index" and use it to say "this player is more likely to be scum because they're higher on the bandwagon index" then I'll talk about it.

I do appreciate the effort, though. It shouldn't be a surprise that it's demoralizing when you're trying your best and all you get to look forward to in the game is STD IS SCUM STD IS SCUM.

And here for you in color:

Seol/Bookitty (9) --

Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum,

chamber,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly,

MafiaSSK/mathcam,

undo

MafiaSSK/mathcam (9) --

CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Albert B. Rampage, Seol/Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball,

Save the Dragons,

Sotty7, Glork

STD, do you believe that these are both wagons on townies, made up of 100% townies? Hint: you don't. You've been scum often enough to know that this doesn't happen.

Umm...I'm voting for you, so obviously I don't think both wagons are 100% townie. If you are town, I would suspect both bookitty and mathcam a little more. It's also possible chamber and ABR are scum, but I highly doubt it. Regardless, I'd rather look at that combined with other pieces of evidence because there is uncertainty.

I don't share the same vigor as you do when it comes to calling someone confscum. Since it's not definitive, I think I'd rather use something like the above to help confirm a suspicion rather than be the only thing driving...nothing is impossible.

Today my reads have been lacking, yes. Been a little distracted. If you're town, I need you to show me, not tell me.

If you have questions for me I'd be happy to talk with you about them, and if I missed anything then let me know.

[Save The Dragons]

There's nothing wrong with looking at LML to help you, but in your list of suspicions against me, you quote some stuff regarding LML, which is fine and I can't argue based on what he said, which is why I didn't quote it. I think his case on me was crappy too, I just think he picked me and decided to be stubborn because he knew whoever left standing that he latched onto would get in trouble later. That is my theory, because I don't think mathcam is scum and there's no one left.

But your reason for voting me yesterday seemed similar to "ISO him and find your own reasons!" which has nothing to do with how LML treated me because his posts aren't part of my ISO. So if your suspicion was, when you were voting me, because LML was clearly bussing me, why didn't you mention that? When ABR responded, why did you back down and not push with that?

3) Yes, you did try to justify why you didn't ask me about my suspicions of you. And then I said:

It was interesting for the reasons I stated in my original post -- which is more than the fact that you simply did not ask "show me your case."

In response to your earlier post, I don't know whether I would have immediately explained to you or not. At the time, I had thought that you might ask me to explain my position, and I hadn't decided how I would respond if you did, in part because I suspected that ABR would do exactly what he did: not much insofar as what I asked.

And then I basically said "At the time, I didn't think you would have shown me your case regardless so I wouldn't have asked that question." So I don't know, I fail to see what's so damn suspicious about me asking why you wanted to get ABR's opinion instead of asking a question I didn't think I'd get an answer to.

[Save The Dragons]

I should probably go to bed but eh. If I sound a little loopy that's why.

If you're town, I need you to show me, not tell me.

Another one! I'm not providing enough evidence with my posts, my tone, my objectives, my hard work? Then you can knock all this down by saying that I "can do this as scum."

If

YOU

're town, I need

YOU

to show me, not tell me.

I'm saying when you post crap like this:

DIE DIE DIE DIE

DISPATCH TO INCINERATOR

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

or this:

Yeah, that's right. My one fake scumread. That's a perfect representations of my positions as they were from my first posts all the way through now. SO fucking spot on.

THE SCUM HIMSELF HAS SPOKEN

HE CANNOT FIGHT OFF THE TRUTH TRAIN COMING FOR HIM

HE HAS SURRENDERED

It makes it really hard for me to pay attention when you post something of worth. You may play however you like but I'm not going to be excited to read your posts when half of them are unhelpful or demoralizing.

When you say "I'm town," it means nothing to me. Just tabulating things on your scumputer is null. You spend a lot of time chasing random wagons D1, and from D2 on you call yourself town a lot and you attack a lot of the people who attack you. You do some anti-town things and are getting some pro-town credit for it. Today I want to know why.

Umm...I'm voting for you, so obviously I don't think both wagons are 100% townie. If you are town, I would suspect both bookitty and mathcam a little more. It's also possible chamber and ABR are scum, but I highly doubt it. Regardless, I'd rather look at that combined with other pieces of evidence because there is uncertainty.

Given that I am town, are you saying that the wagons have no scum on it, except perhaps a small unimportant whiff of Bookitty or mathcam?

You can't possibly believe that. You know you can't get a 9-strong wagon without scum on it.

If you are town, I've just said that Bookitty and mathcam might be scum (they are on each other's wagons). I think that chamber and ABR are less likely. With your alignment up for debate, you've presented a wagon with 2 unknowns and 3 unknowns, so I don't know what you're point is since I would still probably be like "well, let's let other evidence tell me who's scum and not base it on one thing."

Nothing's given. I'd appreciate if you stopped telling me what I believe or know; we appear to have conflicting ideas about this game. I think it is possible that there's 0-1 scum on some wagons. You may disagree with me. Theoretically it's possible and I'm not going to waste my time rooting through games for examples if you don't believe me. I am not arguing that it's more likely that there's NO scum on a 9 player wagon, but if you just look at one wagon or two wagons that doesn't mean a thing, you could be looking at an outlier. Or maybe some of the more reserved voters are scum, thus increasing the likelyhood of only one scum on a wagon. It's not enough, so I'm not going to treat it like the holy grail of scumfinding.

[Save The Dragons]

STD should claim in his next post.

Doctor :/

Don't know if it matters, but here are my night choices:
N1: VitR
N2: PJ
N3: PJ

@DGB and STD

, can you each please list your top four scummiest players out of the 12 remaining?

I'm not sure, I'm not convinced I haven't been playing poorly this whole game, but I'd probably pick DGB, SpyreX, Boo, and Yos. But even though she's been gunning for me I've liked today's DGB much better than previous incarnations of DGB.

Unvote

I may put my vote back but I need a few hours to gather my thoughts.

[Save The Dragons]

Bah! I'll see you all in hell!

<3

Vote STD

[Save The Dragons]

Have fun guys

I did.

[Save The Dragons]

Thanks for modding, Patrick. It was nice to return to mafia especially to see all these players I recognized. I was scared most of the time and debated posting every post for a few minutes just in case someone saw right through me.

<3 I loved our scum team. Though I didn't get to play with LML very much, I missed STD a lot when you guys cruelly and unfairly killed him, and we did pull together as a family throughout the game

<3

Well played scum, gg town. I thought I was going to die N2 or N3, I thought Poro would be following me D5. I think Poro, Boo, SpyreX, and ika all played pretty well after I left, enough to remain not on enough people's radars and with enough other viable candidates. The scum thread was used pretty effectively; had the revolving door scum slot been lynched, this game would have gotten harder.

The masons were tough to surmount early on, but it helped they were outed. Not sure how helpful the vanilla cop would have been if still alive...I'm not familiar with that role so I don't know what Goon comes up as.

I intentionally tried to write dense posts to make the game harder to read, if I was successful, sorry

[Save The Dragons]

Thanks

My brother was recently in a newbie game that got 2nd place for the shortest day in terms of number of posts. That's how I found out there's a records page on the wiki!

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Records

I thought D3 of this game might make longest day in terms of posts, but it's not even close. As for time, the top five all are over a year long.

[Save The Dragons]

(Hi, StD!)

Hi!

In hindsight, everything worked out well for us. I don't know if anyone on either side would say they played without any hiccups.

[Save The Dragons]

(At least) one of this set { petroleumjelly,

Seol

,

Porochaz

, Green Crayons }
is highly likely to be opportunistic mafia. You can toss

LoudMouthLee

in there for the FOS.

I didn't do so bad myself D1.

[Save The Dragons]

Oh, for the record, STD is town. So far, he's picked a fight with Seol, LML, me, and PJ, who are 4 people that are all absurdly good at getting people lynched, all in the first 13 pages of day 1, without any obvious benefit to him from picking all those fights. So either he's righteous town cloaked in the paladin-like armor of righteousness, or he's gone completely suicidal. No way a scum pretending to scumhunt would stick their neck out that far.

He even attacked me for attacking Undo for the same thing he attacked Undo for earlier this game, which is so completely inconsistent it must be a town tell.

My favorite post all game.

<3 Yos