Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)
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In post 12, 4nxi3ty wrote:In post 8, Fishythefish wrote:IIoA: Think about your last will, particularly at night. It's really, really important that votes go to townies.
Why do you feel it was necessary to state the obvious?
vote: fishy
Why not? People are lazy, and some of them will forget their wills need maintenance at some point. Just because something's obvious doesn't mean people will remember it.
I don't intend to reveal my will, and nor should other people. I don't see any benefit at all, and if scum know you are giving a vote to them, they can kill you for it. That's not something to be paranoid about - my recollection from previous last wills is that the scumkill wasn't really targeted by that - but if we go around saying who's top that's just asking for it-
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In post 34, Fishythefish wrote:Damn. Rhinox is scum. And I'm never going to convince soberFishy, let alone anyone else.
Note to self: you made this post for a reason. Work out what that reason was, and then meta Rhinox's very early game play.
Hmmm. I think I can see what I was getting at - Rhinox is very flippant and friendly here, without any attempt to get things going. Might just be his style, I'll check out his meta later today.
@SA: any particular reason?-
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@Rhinox: I certainly remember playing with you (and enjoyed it every time), but my meta of you isn't good enough that I have a feel for your likely page 1-2 play as town and scum. That's true of everyone, probably including myself.
Anyway, going through some games I don't think RVS flippancy is a particularly good scumtell for Rhinox. Actually, he seems to play seriously pretty early as either alignment, so it might be a Rhinox-is-an-impostor-tell. Still not feeling very good about Rhinox, though. The "I don't have you the top of my last will" seems calculated to remind me that I should want Rhinox to think I'm town (which, of course, I do), and so should back off attacking him. I'm going to
UNVOTE: VOTE: Rhinox
@SA: what do you mean by me being "on edge"? How does it make me scum, and more specifically why with Malee? Seems a fairly generic accusation you can throw at anyone doing anything at this stage of the game.-
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In post 48, Rhinox wrote:@fishy: just curious, which games of mine did you use to meta my early game play?
I just went down your topics list. Open 338 was the only scum one, and there were plenty of town ones including LWIII. The game most reminiscent of your play here was called something like Round Table Mafia, and you were town - so the meta gives you a mild towntell.
Rhinox's post 54 reeks of town to me. The sentiments are convincing and townish - particularly "hard to seperate wrong from scum" and "this sort of thing encourages town on town BS" (though I'd modify it to "alignment independent BS" to pick a nit). I think scumRhinox would be fighting Lastsurvivor harder - it's a fight that it feels like he could win - rather than this.
UNVOTE:
This game needs more voices.-
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Sorry for double post.
LS is being very appeasey generally. He prodded Rhinox, and only voted when I agreed with him. Rhinox replied, and I backed off, and so did LS. Nacho asked why he was still voting Rhinox, and he unvoted.
None of those actions are poorly explained, for me. But I don't like the way they line up with scum avoiding conflict.-
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In post 127, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Last, on fish it was a vibe I got from the tone of his posts that looked like scum to me. Let me pull up his ISO and see if I can figure it out:
-ISO 0. Telling everyone at game start to think about wills seems unneccesary and kind of like he's trying to appear helpful, but at that stage really doesn't help anything.
-ISO 1. When asked about the above, he tries to say people will forget if he doesn't remind anyone. A reminder on Page 1 though? Nah, he just wants to appear useful town. The reaction to being questioned about it as well as the will reveal thing are what I saw as "on edge". He seemed pretty defensive for someone not really being pressured or anything.
Everything after that can be summarized as "rhinox is scum, never mind. Bike isn't useful so here's a vote but no one cares so I'm gonna vote malee and just kind of agree with what everyone is saying there."
Malee didn't seem genuine with the over reaction to one thing (nacho) and lack of much else.
On DDD, I honestly don't feel I elaborated a ton. More of that section of the post was me trying to recall Nacho's style.
@ISO 0/1: I was hoping to put the will mechanic in everyone's minds a bit, so that they would think about it. It seemed a better thing to say than nothing. For a full explanation, though I'm not sure it makes things much clearer, I'd been planning to say something less trivial about the will mechanic (such as "don't reveal your townreads" or "don't cluster votes"), but on refreshing my memory on the other LW games I wasn't at all sure that it's worth doing anything except playing normally and sticking your top townread up there. Noone would ever think "oh, that's so useful, he must be town" about ISO 0, and I'd never expect them to, so I'm not really seeing the conniving scum explanation.
@Everything after that: yep, I changed my mind on Rhinox. Yep, I was just following on Malee. Are these scummy things or just things?
Lots of faint townreads on people who feel genuine, which is nice. LS, SA, hiplop and Rhinox are in this category. I don't have any scumreads atm, but I'll spend some time on the game and try to cobble one together tomorrow.-
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@Vincent: I just feel they believe what they say, and that they are trying to catch scum. For the second part, particularly SA and LS - those reads are stronger than Rhinox and hiplop.
@SA: what's scummy about changing your mind? About agreeing with someone else's point?
@funkybike:
In post 145, funkybike1 wrote:Rhinoxhas changed his behavior from previous games quite a bit, he's played here like a decent townie.
What did you mean by this? How has Rhinox changed his behaviour?
@Malee: In 78, you said:
In post 78, Malee wrote:In post 53, Nachomamma8 wrote:Just because there's a small number of posts doesn't mean that you should put down a serious vote if you don't believe there's scum intent. I also foresee myself speaking with every member of the playlist that posts, so it probably would've been better if my discussion with you didn't start with suspicion, don't you think?
But you never said, was your Vincent vote a serious vote? It just seemed very odd, even for a RVS. I'm not suspicious and I don't read you as scum per se due to that vote, it was just an awkward moment, and it doesn't sit with me.
Here, it doesn't sound like you have a scumread on Nacho for the vote on Vincent. Did you have a scumread on Nacho at all? Why were you voting him?
In post 83, Malee wrote:In post 80, Rhinox wrote:nacho...didn't vote vincent?? (now who's not paying attention )
I admit, I'm confused :p
That makes it a null case UNVOTE:
This post implies that at some point your case wasn't null, but that Nacho never voting Vincent made it null. What I want to know is:
- When did you think Nacho was scummy (even slightly), and why?
- Why did this change when you discovered Nacho didn't vote Vincent? To me, it looked like your point on Nacho was for "skimming", which made him wrongly think Vincent hadn't voted.
At the moment, 83 looks to me like scum caught in an argument they aren't enjoying and hoping they can get out of it by dropping their suspicions.
(Nothing in the above on Malee is new, but I'm putting it together so she can answer better and so my thoughts are clearer).-
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In post 157, Sleepless Assassin wrote:[Vince, I was more concerned with the fact that if he called half of those names either town or scum in his next post, it wouldn't be a contradiction.
Fish, in detail, what made you change your mind about rhinox? And about malee, while people don't buy bandwagoning as a scumtell these days, it's still a valid scum tendency in my experience.
I thought Rhinox was scummy initially for something that doesn't seem to be a scumtell for him, and then for trying to put me off by making me want him to think me town. That still doesn't sit comfortably with me, but I really liked his response to LS. Rhinox is a decent arguer, and his early game spat with LS was going well - I felt he was looking more convincing, and that that was probably going to be true regardless of alignment. But in 54, he didn't press the matter with LS, instead backing off and said he didn't want to spur on town-on-town arguments. That for me was a very pro-town sentiment, and one I don't think scum would be likely to fake - I felt that Rhinox could have more easily got out of that situation looking good by escalating things with LS.
Is that clear?
On BWing - scum do it, town do it, and if it's a scumtell at all it's a weak one. If I see somebody making a good point, and I don't have anything better to go, I'm going to jump on it. If nobody sheeps, it's pretty difficult to get a scum lynch.-
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Malee flaking sucks. I really wanted her explanation, and now instead I just have an unsatisfying suspicion on someone who won't be able to explain anything. Maybe we should just lynch her.
@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.-
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In post 182, Nachomamma8 wrote:As for Malee wagoners, I'd like to see justification for staying on the wagon.
Do you really feel your case was that strong?
I think the case against Malee is strong. Sure, there's only one point, but it's a pretty good one. I definitely want to work out what out people think of it before I move on.-
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In post 186, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:In post 174, Fishythefish wrote:@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.
To a large degree I'm working on a basic calculus of "I think Nacho is cruising and thus likely scum, noob isn't going to immediately bus and they certainly aren't going to panic and remove their vote like that; thus nachoscum = Maleetown". I think your second point is reasonable (I think the first is something that makes sense to assume) but how much of that can be explained by a player out of their depth?
I agree that this is more likely to come from someone out of their depth - but it still requires either lying or forgetting what you'd thought very recently, and both of those are pretty decent scumtells. I think this is more than "sloppy play". And yes, I tend to agree that Malee most likely wouldn't have played like that if scum with Nacho. For me that's not very important atm - I have no real read on Nacho at the moment.
@funky:
- Why did you think Nacho was scum?
- Where is his "decent explanation for his behaviour"?-
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In post 200, Alicewondering wrote:In post 174, Fishythefish wrote:Malee flaking sucks. I really wanted her explanation, and now instead I just have an unsatisfying suspicion on someone who won't be able to explain anything. Maybe we should just lynch her.
WTF. You're suggesting lynching her before a replacement is found?FoS, man.
Only semi-seriously. I'd genuinely be up for lynching her - I think she's very scummy, and that her actions will be totally forgotten once someone replaces her - but I know there's no chance of that actually happening. It's fairly hard to persuade people when part of your argument is that they are about to do something stupid.
In post 201, Sleepless Assassin wrote:Last, correct. I was judging by the vote count where malee had five votes. But at this point I don't really care whether malee or bike gets lynched. Both are pretty scummy.
Some advice: start caring. Even if you think they are much of a muchness, choose one and run with it. If people have this attitude and exactly one of malee and bike is scum, the town one will be the lynch.
@funky: can you please answer my questions in 196?
I think hiplop is pretty likely town. He seems to be trying to catch scum, and his last point - that Nacho is avoiding his meta - is the sort of complicated scheme that town dream up and scum don't fake often.-
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@mod:are you looking for a replacement for Malee? I haven't see you mention it anywhere.
~I have been looking for a replacement and at this point am contacting other mods directly and willing to cross replace if you know any games that need it.
@LS: not on its own. But his posting looks like he's picking out little things that are easy to make stand-alone comments on, which feels more like forced content than any kind of scumhunting.
: if you don't answer these questions in your next post, I will vote for you:@funky
In post 196, Fishythefish wrote:
@funky:
- Why did you think Nacho was scum?
- Where is his "decent explanation for his behaviour"?-
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In post 273, theomoaner wrote:Fishy:
In post 8, Fishythefish wrote:IIoA: Think about your last will, particularly at night. It's really, really important that votes go to townies.
I found this to be seriously off It reads as an attempt to claim "I'm town" in his first post, but that said, I feel most of his posts after this come across as town, until...
In post 203, Fishythefish wrote:In post 200, Alicewondering wrote:In post 174, Fishythefish wrote:Malee flaking sucks. I really wanted her explanation, and now instead I just have an unsatisfying suspicion on someone who won't be able to explain anything. Maybe we should just lynch her.
WTF. You're suggesting lynching her before a replacement is found?FoS, man.
Only semi-seriously. I'd genuinely be up for lynching her - I think she's very scummy, and that her actions will be totally forgotten once someone replaces her - but I know there's no chance of that actually happening. It's fairly hard to persuade people when part of your argument is that they are about to do something stupid.
It feels like a call for a quick lynch on Malee (from now on Me, as I'm in that slot now) watered down with a vague sentiment of dissatisfaction.
Overall I'm reading null on Fishy because these two post leave a bad taste, otherwise I'd think town.
I've said enough about the first bit. For the second - it's pretty clear what I'm saying. I'd have been happy to quicklynch Malee/you, but I knew it wasn't going to happen. What would I be hoping to achieve as scum by
saying that? Your lynch? Town cred in some obscure way?
TBH, I'm quite liking this catchup post from themoaner - lots of it has me nodding along, and it doesn't seem particularly self interested. Bleh. I hate weighing my reads of two different people in one slot.
@tm:
- How does 4n come out as null? Sounds like town.
- Why is Alice probably town?
I feel that there's another game going on between Rhinox, hiplop etc., that I've really been tuning out of. I'll stop doing that now.-
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In post 284, Nachomamma8 wrote:And then there's Fishy, who is being fishy as hell, as per usual. Feels to passive, too lost in this game without Malee here. Please change this soon and be the Fishy we all know and love.
I don't have much time today, but just a quick "here's where I am" post - I feel like I've been pushing and found no resistance, first on Malee (who replaced out) and now on funky (who isn't answering). In both cases I had questions I really wanted/want answered to firm up or dissipate my scumread. So yeah, I guess that does make me feel fairly lost. I think I can find myself again by engaging more with the you/Rhinox/hiplop/whoever situation, and I'll do that tomorrow.-
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OK. I'm glad to say I've sorted out the hiplop/Rhinox situation. After hiplop answers a question, I'll tell you their alignments.
@hiplop:
- In post 218, DDD was on your scumlist. You later clarified that this was for lurking, which I will happily agree is a weak scumtell. Still, by 241 you had decided to focus on Nacho/Rhinox, though only Nacho of the three had posted in the meantime, and not in a way you criticised. What made you change your mind on things between these two posts?
More later.-
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OK, cool. That was pretty much as I expected.
Time for a wall post.
TL;DR
If you are hiplop or Rhinox, read at least the first section.
Rhinox/hiplop is town v town. Nacho is town, largely for trying to make them realise that (so Rhinox and Nacho are both town! Hooray!). LS is town a bit for that and more generally for scumhunting. Alice is probably scum.
Rhinox vs. hiplop
I think this is pretty clearly a town v town argument, where hiplop in particular has gone off the rails and started replying to Rhinox assuming he's scum rather than actually answering things. Events as I see them:
- hiplop's early vote on Rhinox is essentially for not believing Rhinox's posting - thinking it was forced, and an attempt to look town. I thoroughly disagree, but don't find it particularly unlikely from town.
- Rhinox replied "yeah, can't really respond to that" - which seems fair - and asked hiplop why he commented repeatedly before Rhinox responded, which is also reasonable. Hiplop's reply was unilluminating.
- hiplop 177 asked if anyone had a deep Nachometa, because Nacho was trying to avoid his meta. I found that a pretty town question and said so at the time - it's the sort of contrived point scum don't make. This continues to be true through hiplop's attacks on Nacho and the Nacho/Rhinox link; hiplop seems to be convincing himself of things, which is something only town can do.
- hiplop 218 seems to think "DDD, Rhinox and Nacho are scummy, and Rhinox and Nacho are connected". If anything, you'd probably say Rhinox > DDD > Nacho from it.
- hiplop 228 isweirdin its reply to Nacho. He says that his mind is lapsing on the connection between Nacho and Rhinox, and that for why Nacho is scummy he is working on it, having to make a jump on this case and build a "bridge" from Rhinox to Nacho to do it. That's bizarre - it reads an admission that his Nacho hop is forced, and simply doesn't bother to justify the connection that then becomes even more crucial. It doesn't read remotely like hiplop is trying to make his scumhunting sounds good, and it seems really unlikely from scum. I read hiplop as town with a stretched case he's convincing himself of here.
- Rhinox 257 argues with hiplop about Nacho - tbh, I think meta is a really difficult subject and have little idea who is right. Neither side of the argument is nearly wrong enough to be scummy. He also asks why the switch to Nacho; hiplop replied that Nacho had more interest and Rhinox was away.
- Rhinox 266 is the first post that worries me in this exchange. The reasoning isn't very strong at all. Rhinox says that hiplop has moved onto Nacho despite reading Rhinox as #1 scum, and having said "not too long back" that Nacho and DDD were vying for second place. But that's not how I read hiplop at all - he'd made several posts since 218 (where DDD/Nacho was expressed), and they pretty clearly show hiplop plumping on a Nacho/Rhinox scumteam. I don't see anywhere in his posting that Rhinox is comfortably number one, and him going with the flow on Nacho didn't seem at all unnatural.
- hiplop 272 has an air of frustration culminating in a pretty bad dismissal - "Essentially rhinox's points are based on his lack of comprehension, i can't fucking reply to lack of competence". I usually expect these discussions to have gone on for longer, and got rather more ranty, before town start saying things like that. This is the start of hiplop's descent from actually arguing with Rhinox.
- Rhinox 274 clarified, saying that he was concerned about hiplop's dropping of DDD for Nacho/Rhinox. Well, that reads like a change of tack to me - 266 was pretty clearly saying that the problem was that hiplop wasn't going for Rhinox, his #1 scumread. Not particularly scummy - the points are related, and I can see 266 just being a poor expression of Rhinox's views. The new point is much better - DDD dropping off hiplop's radar needs an explanation.
- In 280 and beyond, hiplop is not good at separating "arguing with me" from "scum". He starts accusing Rhinox of using wiki-tells, which is not at all fair, and of just calling Rhinox scum, which is unproductive. I read this as town who gives up arguing with someone because they are convinced they are scum. I can't see scumhiplop doing this tactically. Rhinox's explanation is that scumhiplop has got flustered after being called out by Rhinox - but Rhinox's points just aren't that scary for him. The case is essentially:
a) The move to Nacho, voting the #2 suspect over the #1 suspect - hiplop addressed this, and his posts bear his claims out.
b) The unexplained dropping of DDD; well, hiplop was happy to explain that as soon assomeone elseasked him. He clearly wasn't scared of the point itself, and it was just being asked by Rhinox, who he was convinced was scum, that made him respond badly.
I'm practically certain these two are town. I really understand hiplop's posting - he displays confirmation bias in an unwise but entirely townish way, slowly convincing himself of his grand Nacho/Rhinox theory. Rhinox just reeks of town in this argument and elsewhere. They should really, really take a step back and vote someone else.
Other townies
Nacho reads hiplop/Rhinox wonderfully, and attempts to defuse. He is not scum without one of them, and so he is in fact town. LS does the same to a lesser extent – though he doesn't really explain enough that he's at all likely to help. More to the point, I'm pretty much certain he's trying to catch scum, so he's very likely town.
Alice is scum
Alice's move to hiplop is really bad:
In post 279, Alicewondering wrote:In post 266, Rhinox wrote:Do you think a replacement provides more/better information if they aren't under any pressure, or if they immediately have to face a bandwagon full of voters who found their predecessor scummy?
Townie replacements will certainly have motivation to post better content, but they are likely to become frustrated with being judged on their predecessor's actions. Scum replacements faced with a bandwagon will carefully post content that may appear to be good, but will actually be very misleading, so there's not really a lot of information to be gleaned by welcoming someone with a bandwagon.
DDD, I want more reads from you. Besides Nacho, what do you think about the players in the game?
Stole this quote from Rhinox, who quoted Hip.
In post 274, Rhinox wrote:You, and nacho are about equal in my books. Can you really not grasp basic connotation? I used "maybe even DDD"...because my only thought on him is hes kinda lurky.
I'm refering to this:
In post 218, hiplop wrote:DDD and Rhinox are scum, imo. Maybe even Nachomama instead of DDD.Nacho is doing what every player who has been "Scum-meta'd" does, "CHANGE THEIR PLAYSTYLE" in heavy air quotes (its more fashionable that way). And quite bluntly, I see a connection between rhinox and nacho. DDD feels independently scummy, some for his lurking, some for his actual posts.
LOL Hip can't even remember his reads.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Hiplop
She tries to parrot Rhinox, but oversimplifies to the point where I struggle to believe she understood or believed the point - in her repetition, the point just becomes "reads changed -> scum". If Rhinox vs. hiplop is town v town, Alice is stirring the pot, and that's scummy as hell. LS's case on Alice is a mixed bag. Hypocrisy forms a central role, and that's just not remotely scummy. “You didn't apply that tell to everyone” just doesn't do much for me. Of the 4 points, only 2) and 4) do anything for me – Alice's contrived explanation of the simple fact that defending scum is scummy feels off, and not trying to get a read on themoaner is also bad. Also, Alice's backing off from hiplop in the face of pressure looks scummy. All in all, Alice is looking like scum here.
Kortul hasn't done much. He asks relevant questions, but doesn't take many stances, much less controversial ones, and doesn't seem to follow up much. Scummy side of neutral.
Funkybike is worse than a standard lurker - I can't see satisfactory answers to these questions:
In post 156, Fishythefish wrote:@funkybike:
In post 145, funkybike1 wrote:Rhinoxhas changed his behavior from previous games quite a bit, he's played here like a decent townie.
What did you mean by this? How has Rhinox changed his behaviour?In post 196, Fishythefish wrote:@funky:
- Why did you think Nacho was scum?
Where is his "decent explanation for his behaviour"?
Particularly the first – it looked to me like he was parroting my fairly tenuous meta on Nacho, without really understanding it. Feels very much like he's trying to force some reads he doesn't really have, and that is a bit scummy. For the second post, he backs of Nacho very fast when he's criticised. He says “Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable.” - but it's not at all clear to me where that explanation could be.
Themoaner's content so far has been fine. Malee's scumminess is rapidly fading from my mind, but it shouldn't be – this slot is still pretty likely scum.
DDD hasn't done much, and I don't have much of a read on him. If themoaner's scum, so is DDD:
In post 136, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.
Here, DDD is saying that the Malee case is poor because she made a decent point against Nacho. But that's not the point at all – DDD expressed the actual casehimselfhere:
In post 63, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:In post 51, Rhinox wrote:It was a good point (not a strong point or a scum point) you had but it says more about you than DDD.
I'd love to know why it was a good point other than pandering to LastSurvivor because even you recognize the point was easily addressed.
VOTE: Nachomamma8
Malee is pathetically shrimping away from this, but I like the point. Nacho's an above-average player and when he's on cruise control and not reading things deeply that suggests to me he's not really looking for scum that deeply.
Malee's “pathetic shrimping” is pretty much the issue with her attack on Nacho. I said that I thought the case wasn't about the actual point, and DDD's answer was that Malee wouldn't bus Nacho. So, we have DDD basing a Malee townread on a Nacho scumread. That seems pretty tenuous – particularly since it seems unlikely that by post 136 DDD had a very strong scumread on Nacho.
4n hasn't done two much. His main actions have been a vote on Alice, which was ok, and one on Rhinox, which isn't terribly reasoned but could be scum stirring the pot. Possible under-the-radar scum, but pretty null atm.
Vincent: not terribly active, but what content there is is pretty sound.
SA: he's done quite a lot. Lots of it feels town, nothing scummy there. Pretty likely town.
Town:
hiplop, Rhinox, nacho, LS
Probtown:
SA
Null:
Vincent
Leaning scum:
kortul, DDD (probscum so if themoaner is scum)
Probscum:
Alice, themoaner, funkybike-
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In post 327, hiplop wrote:i have yet to make a mountain out of a molehill, folks.
@Rhinox: I can't see your scum-hiplop posting this in reply to a long account of why your interaction is town v town. If he's flailed his way into an argument after screwing up with his fake reads, he mustknowhe's made some mistake, and must be itching to withdraw. I'm not saying he'd go "yeah, you're right, unvote", but he'd at least weaken his position. This doubling down is the not the move of a scared scumbag.
@hiplop: I'm going to reply to the post itself, but don't have the time right now.-
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I'm not really in a fit state to post, but there I hope I'm better than nothing.
@DDD: my insticnt is that that tell doesn't work. As scum or as town, I stress massively about my replacee. I replace in a lot, and I'm really worried about the situation of replacing in to a town slot where the previous occupant is really scummy. I never even slightly think "he was town, so all his actions must be reasonable" - town do unreasonable and scummy things. Possibly I'm not the typical replacement, but I'm struggling with the notion that replacements find their slots beyond criticism.
@Rhinox: can you give a more detailed analysis of Alice? I think that some of the points against her are fairly compelling, and I don't really see why you'd think she was town.-
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I hate it. funky pops up and votes Alice with no explanation - it feels like he thinks he can get away with the vote just because other people are voting for similar reasons. It's scummy as hell. He also continues to ignore all the questions that people have asked him.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike
@funky: If you're town, you need to try harder. Answer questions, and give reasons for your vote.-
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In post 348, 4nxi3ty wrote:okay I took a look at the cases agains alice and don't find them very compelling, definitely nothing lynchworthy imo.
The only thing that struck me as odd was the "loldefense" followed up by "ls points are vaild". Alice, which specific points were valid?
@Fishy, how does funkybike's vote affect your read of alice?
Not all that much. It's not particularly unlikely that scumfunky would be bussing here - his partner would be in trouble, and I can easily see scum not bothering to make much of a case because they know they're right. And if funky is town, his vote says nothing about Alice's alignment.-
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OK, so we're not lynching Alice today. Her recent posting feels fairly convincing - her explanation of which points against her she sees as valid makes sense to me - and more importantly the other two scummiest people are two of the three voting for her.
Come and vote bike. He's scummy, he's a lurker, and he needs to die. Sure, if he flips town it's not good information-wise, but that's always going to be true with a player like funky - it's more than made up for by the fact that he's likely scum, and that if he's not he's useless town. We have to lynch him in the end, and later there may well be other things we want to do more.-
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In post 379, Rhinox wrote:I don't see how its a forgone conclusion we will inevitably have to lynch him at some point. Maybe there's a vig? Maybe there's investigations? Maybe we lynch all the scum before lylo (assuming funky is not scum)? I think its easy to say "oh he's a lurker, he's useless, he's not answering questions" and rally a lynch for that, but none of that means he's scum. I think if you look at some of the things he has been posting, it looks like genuine town trying to figure out scum. It may not be effective or helpful to the rest of us, but that doesn't mean we should lynch him.
It's true, there could be a vig or a cop, and I wasn't thinking about that. I agree, it's important whether he's scum - his uselessness is a bonus, but not the central issue. I was somewhat posting that because of the multiple people who've gone "yeah, he's scummy, but we won't get any information if he's town" - this implies that a lurker is a worse lynch than another equally scummy person, which is not at all true.
As to funky's scumminess - where do you see him looking like town trying to figure out scum? I'm really not seeing that. For why I think he's scummy - see my wall post. Particularly his early game parrot of my meta on you. That screams to me that he was flicking through the game finding opinions he could steal - it's pretty unlikely anyone else would come up with that meta on their own. And that's something I've done on occasion, when I'm struggling for reads - but only ever when I'm scum. It's a very pure form of wanting to post content more than wanting to catch scum. There's also the terrible hop onto Alice (although I'm never sure to what extent blatant self preservation with no thought about lynch target is scummy).
Definitely want to hear from theo about the Alice flipflop. Actually, I take back some of the strength of feeling in my last post. Alice is still not the right call, but depending on what I hear from funky and theo I could go either way there.-
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I think it's just L-2.
@Rhinox: thanks very much for that post. It changes my thinking quite a bit. You seem to have a pretty solid meta of him - and since I think you're town and competent, I'm going to go ahead and trust you on that.
I'd still like to hear from funky what he meant when he said you'd changed. But if you've played together a lot, and once together as scum, I can more easily imagine that that actually made sense for him. OK, I'm going to
UNVOTE:
VOTE: theomoaner
L-1.-
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UNVOTE: , because of the following.
@Macro: you are most probably going to get lynched today. Bad luck, and please be scum. If you are town, the most important thing to do is to check on your last will. You want to give your vote to town, and preferably competent town. If you have time to read the game, great. If not, pick from this list of townies:
Me, Rhinox, LS, Nacho
Particularly me.-
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Hmmm. Not particularly liking Vincent's reaction here. What's the problem with the vote or with 408? And note the options he gives us - the vote was scum or OMGUS. No possibility of it being serious for any reason other than OMGUS.
Haven't really seen anything from Macro that alters my read on that slot.-
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@Macro re: Malee quicklynch. Well, firstly I never thought we were going to get a quicklynch - which makes it a bit less serious because I didn't have to weigh the pros and cons. But the reason I might have led a quicklynch on Malee if it was plausible is that everyone always forgets replacees (case in point: noone's mentioned Malee for pages, and I bet hardly anyone is really thinking about her when voting you), and I thought Malee was too scummy to be forgotten.
@Rhinox: yeah, meant Voided. What do you think of him, here and in the rest of the game?-
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In post 420, Voidedmafia wrote:In post 412, Fishythefish wrote:Hmmm. Not particularly liking Vincent's reaction here. What's the problem with the vote or with 408? And note the options he gives us - the vote was scum or OMGUS. No possibility of it being serious for any reason other than OMGUS.
Well, at the time he was like, "Hai, I'm here, btw, vote voided" and there was no indication as to why he voted me, hence my reaction. So while it could've been just a joke, I had no way of knowing that. Then in 408 he's like, "chillax, it's just a joke!" and quite frankly, I don't know why you'd throw at a joke vote at this point because they make no sense. I don't care if you're going to call me some sort of hard-hat or whatever, but we're at the point where we really can't just say "lolol vote: x lolol" and expect it to be pushed under the rug or somesuch.
So, why do you think he voted, and why do you think he's more likely scum than town for it? When you say you were trying to work out if the vote was scum or OMGUS, why did you think those were the likely options?
I don't get at all why you think that Macro's vote on you is scummy. ATM, it looks very much to me like you want to dismiss his vote and attack him, and you did this rather carelessly because he's widely regarded as scum and you thought it would be easy.
Voided is right in that the wills aren't revealed. The key thing is to have a townie at the top; preferably two at night, in case of vigs and such.-
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Yeah. I think I'm with you on that one. I don't much like Voided's recent play, but it's not enough to change my mind. Macro's play has been fine, but there's nothing there that makes me think he must be town.
VOTE: Macro
L-1 again. Macro should get his will in order, and then claim, and then get lynched.-
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So, the way I see Macro is that everything he has done looks fine, but that's sort of unsurprising. I wouldn't expect halfway competent scum to be trying to drive an alternative lynch here - clearly Macro's only way to survive is to defuse his wagon by looking as town as possible, which makes it a hard situation to read someone. And his content is ok, but "independent thought" just isn't that hard to fake as scum, and there's nothing there that really makes me sit up and pay attention.
Not-VT claim is unacceptable. The main points of a claim is that if it is likely to get confirmed or (less so) shot at, we can leave you alive. If you have the option of making up a claim to fit the facts later, that's no good to us at all.
VOTE: Macro
This is still the right lynch. I want a full claim.
@Macro: that turnaround from theo looks bad to me because it didn't make sense. He'd called Alice the "voice of reason" in the game, and then because of one thing he found "a little strange" he turned round and voted her. I feel he's scum who'd forgotten how much he'd said Alice was town - possibly rereading only his catchup post, and not the explanation he gave me. That kind of townread just doesn't evaporate that fast.-
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In post 478, Macrophage wrote:Fishy: Did you always think a non-VT claim was unacceptable or did it take you a while to decide?
When I first posted after your claim, I was too tired to want to think about the game. A non-VT claim is fairly non-standard, and I don't think I've seen one before. I wanted to think about a) if it made you town and b) if it was something I can live with. I decided mildly scummy for a) - the only time I've softclaimed vaguely similarly was as scum, but I don't know how well that holds up in general, and no for b).
The follow up VT claim makes me think you're town. I'm lost for scumreads in this game, though my townreads are pretty awesome. Tempted just to follow Nacho, who is town and seems to have things under control, but annoyingly he's voting for someone I think was town. Though I really can't remember why - I should try to work that out.
UNVOTE:
More later.-
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In post 521, Macrophage wrote:What do you now think of LS's previous posting that led you to believe he was town?
Early on, I thought he sounded like he believed what he said and was trying to catch scum. I can still see where I was coming from, but I don't see anything very townish in his posting after that.
The original case on LS doesn't do too much for me - sitting on a Malee read made quite a bit of sense in the context of LS's posting, and his lack of content wasn't particularly bad, and the hypocrisy of asking for content is not at all scummy. The reaction is bad, though. LS's eventual explanation:
- He was already planning some rereads.
- Nacho's vote made him go - internally - "yeah, that's fair, but I'm going to do some rereading anyway so it's ok"
- He did some rereading, and produced some content.
But I don't think that ties in well with the actual post:
In post 290, Lastsurvivor wrote:@Nacho: Hum. If your vote is only based off of a joke I've been making based off of Rhinox's post 254 (read the last sentence and his use of the word "placate," and then look at my avatar and scroll down to #258 where I first used the joke if you don't get it), and a slight disappointment that I haven't changed my vote in awhile, then hopefully you won't mind if I disregard your vote for now.
@Kortul: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I got it right. If she were talking about her own posts, wouldn't she say "That's very townish to say,andit's genuine"? If I'm understanding what you're saying, anyway.
Gonna spend the afternoon doing ISOs. Just replying to stuff directed at me.
This isn't the post of someone who thinks that Nacho has a point. It's too dismissive. If someone has a point and you're going to improve on that score, you should admit it. But failing that, you at least don't call their vote a joke.
Then LS posts some content, and then this:
In post 372, Lastsurvivor wrote:In post 370, Nachomamma8 wrote:The hungry wolf comment was quoted as an example of one of the times you demanded more content. That would've been clear to you had you read my posting. As for "slight disappointment", it's more than that. I never suggested it wasn't.
Honest question: Do you really think I haven't been providing content since you've been gone? Your argument's irrelevant ATM.
(Also, don't even think about replying that your prodding made me provide content.)
So, LS knows that Nacho's argument wasn't irrelevant when he made. Hemustalso know that what happened could easily be construed as Nacho's prodding making LS provide content. Again, if you agreed with an argument and think you need to do something, you don't do that thing and then call the argument irrelevant.
Can you explain those for me LS? I don't get while you would reply what you did while thinking what you said you were thinking.
I think I'm going to stick with this vote.
@Macro: Hmmm. DDD has done exactly nothing all game. Scummy. Would vote him over you, I think.-
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Frankly, after you brought that up last night I've been worrying that that conclusion might be drawn if LS flips scum. Our votes are very similar. Mostly it's LS sheeping me. I guess we can talk about it if LS flips scum. Which I hope he does, though it would make me rather dread tomorrow .
For my townread on LS, it was an early game one that kind of got stuck. I realised recently that I haven't really reviewed LS for a while, and my town read on him was rather unjustified. In 322, I think I already was just going "yeah, I've got an LS townread, looks like content, this guy's town" - the "length=town" fallacy combining with confirmation bias. 404 was just me restating that to advise a replacement to make a will - no new information there.
For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?
For myself, I don't really know what to think of the voting patterns. If LS is town, it's an almighty coincidence. If he's scum, it doesn't feel like buddying - it's not like he actually addressed things to me.Possiblyit could be a deliberate attempt to create a link, but that's not actually what scum do.-
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In post 536, DCLXVI wrote:In post 535, Fishythefish wrote:
For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?
Sometimes wagons are too good to be true. Having spent some more time looking at the wagons here is what I think of them.
Malee/theomoaner/Macro:Malee got nailed for a mistake she made in RVS thinking that someone had voted when they hadn't. Nacho did the same thing but no one has been on his case. The face that Malee got confused after presusure and Nacho didn't probably contributed to that. Also the level of involvement wasn't that great from Malee which didn't help her case. This is more a case of Stupidity/forgetfulness does not equal scumminess.
This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt. If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.
Funkybike:
I'm having a hard time understanding the reasons for this wagon, what I did notice is that both you[fishy] and LS abandoned it to jump onto the next wagon. LS was the first on the alicewagon, you were the third and you sheeped, theo and LS in voting Alice. Then you jump off when Alice gets to L-2, LS jumps off when Alice gets to L-2 again. Had you both followed through on you vehement "alice is scum" reads, Alice likely would have been lynched.
Alicewondering:
The fact is that both you and LS have seemed rather opportunistic in jumping on the person that is "most scummy" at the moment rather than actually trying to get someone lynched. The scumhunting being done by both of you feels fake. You both leave before a lynch can happen each time.
I think funky was more than a lurker hunt, and Malee was scummy, not just forgetful. See my iso.
I think that last paragraph is massively unfair to me. Other than on Alice, I've been early on those wagons - unless my picture of my play is radically wrong, my play just can't be described as opportunistic. Seeing scumminess before other people do is hardly a crime. And yes, I've left before lynches happen. I've changed my mind. Same goes for pretty much everyone.
In post 537, Lastsurvivor wrote:Fishy wrote:This isn't the post of someone who thinks that Nacho has a point. It's too dismissive. If someone has a point and you're going to improve on that score, you should admit it. But failing that, you at least don't call their vote a joke.
I reacted that way because I was being stupid. At this point I really don't know how to boil it down any other way. You and Nacho are looking for some pro-town motive behind that reaction when it's clear that there wasn't other than the fact that I was irritated and felt like being a dick. Nacho's "out of place complimenting" is bad point irritated me and I just decided to dismiss the entire case because of it.
Yeah, it was a brutally stupid thing to do. But why would scum do it? How is scum furthering his agenda by disregarding a case like that? If the above paragraph isn't good enough for you, I ask you to answer those two questions for me.
OK, so you felt like a dick and dismissed the case. I can sort of see that, once. But what about the second quote? When you said that Nacho's point was "irrelevant" because you'd posted content, and told him not to think about saying that was a reaction to him. Surely, at that point, you knew that his point hadn't been irrelevant, and that thinking your content was a reaction to him was pretty plausible - so why the dismissal again?
(I hate interacting with someone after people link us. It's so hard not to think about how things look.)-
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Yes, that what's I'm referring to.
IDK. If you accuse someone of not posting content, and they post content, that doesn't mean your argument was irrelevant and dismissing it is still strange.
Bleh. I'm kind of liking LS's responses here. Strike me as town genuinely trying to explain himself after making a mistake. I wish my scumreads didn't keep falling apart.-
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OK. I'm flip-flopping like crazy here. I can't convince myself of anything at all. I'm not really seeing the LS case - his recent responses to me are pretty convincing. For the Macro wagon, Malee was scummy, theo was mixed and Macro's been solid. But his claim really puts me off - claiming non-VT and then VT seems unlikely to stop a lynch, as opposed to say claiming cop or doc outright. It's not the sort of thing I've ever seen scum trying to pull. Here's my final answer (up to deadline shenanigans):
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DDD
Read DDD's ISO. It won't take long. There's nothing in there that looks like he's trying to catch scum - the closest he comes is with the Amished tell, when he wants the support of others. He's never really pushed anything.
My access will be pretty poor for the next couple of days. I should get on to vote near deadline if necessary.-
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In post 580, kortul wrote:Just a quick check before going out with a family again, so extensive reading would be in the evening.
Nacho, you got me wrong, just read again. Of course i understand that Macro isn't PR hunting after such a claim. I suspect Alice and Fishy of PR hunting, since after the VT claim from Macro they are more interested in other wagons. All others who say that they believe the claim weren't interested or pushing Macro wagon.In post 562, Nachomamma8 wrote:kortul wrote:I don't really understand why Alice and Fishy think that after the VT claim Macro is town. I mean, the fact that scum less likely to do a VT claim doesn't instantly make this claim town. If he claimed to be some PR, would you lynch him instead? I see possible PR hunting motives here, which makes me even more suspicious of Alice (and Fishy), at the same time it means that there's chance that i am wrong about Macro after all - PR hunting on a scumbuddy isn't exactly productive.
Macrophage held the belief that a VT claim was going to equal certain death, as you can tell by the way he claimed. So, claiming non-VT was clearly a move of survival. As scum, once he had already laid that claim down, there was no reason to rescind on it at all. If he were PR hunting, then he might as well claim a specific PR, or else it would be useless. The only reason he would rescind that claim is if he didn't want to be counterclaimed, and scum who were pretty certain they were gonna die really don't give a shit about being counterclaimed.
Alice, Fishy, what would you do if Macro actually claimed to have some PR? Keep the heat on him, or go elsewhere?
Depends on the claim. If it was both confirmable and powerful, maybe go elsewhere. But I tend towards lynching PR claims, because scum very frequently claim to be a PR.
So, you think that I and/or Alice are scum who aren't satisfied with a VT lynch? That's kind of unlikely - scum are generally happy with any town lynch. I suppose if all three wagons are town it could work.
Someone-or-other's DDD meta (he always plays like this) is noted. It's not my impression of DDD, but I may be misremembering. At any rate, with the options we've got here someone who is never going to do anything and is not going to be easy to read seems a solid lynch.
I'm sorry, but I just don't have time to read everything that's been posted. I currently don't really believe that either of the other wagons is on scum. I'll be voting LS over Macro if it comes to it.-
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In post 616, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:And now I find it funny that the player I've never played with and the player I've played with once as scum have a better handle on my meta than Fishy.
Yeah, I realise that me not having a meta on you is pretty unimpressive. I tend to assume that people I've played with a lot are a bit better than they are.
I probably won't be on again before deadline - although just possibly I will very close indeed to deadline. I won't hammer, since LS is going to come back and (presumably) claim and adjust his will. Don't no lynch.-
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On my bad feelings: that was very quickly posted. Giving it a smidgeon more time, I don't like the way Alice went under the radar the moment the wagon on her dropped off. She really just went along with things for the rest of the day. My feelings on DCL are even more wishy-washy. In his argument with LS, I just feel DCL is arguing to prove his points are justified, rather than to figure out LS's alignment.
RL situation has clarified, but not really improved. I'm sorry, but I'm probably going to be low on time and making short, poorly thought through posts for the next week. After that, things will be much better.-
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Firstly, dealing with stuff addressed to me:
In post 707, 4nxi3ty wrote:In post 552, Fishythefish wrote:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DDD
Read DDD's ISO. It won't take long. There's nothing in there that looks like he's trying to catch scum - the closest he comes is with the Amished tell, when he wants the support of others. He's never really pushed anything.
In post 667, Fishythefish wrote:DDD seems an ok choice, but no more than that.
???
This intervening quote is also relevant:
In post 604, Fishythefish wrote:Someone-or-other's DDD meta (he always plays like this) is noted. It's not my impression of DDD, but I may be misremembering. At any rate, with the options we've got here someone who is never going to do anything and is not going to be easy to read seems a solid lynch.
My DDD scumread has never been very strong. In that first quote I'm saying he is useless, which for me is a minor scumtell. When somebody said this is null for him, and I realised my memories of his play are very vague, that became even weaker. When I said he was an ok choice (and now, at least before my catchup) that's because he's a player who I don't see being useful, I don't see any reason why he's town, and I don't see his alignment becoming much clearer.
In post 726, 4nxi3ty wrote:fishy, you've played with DDD before right? have you seen him tunnel as either alighnment?
Sorry, I can't remember DDD's play well enough to answer this. I *might* have a look over our games together some time, but tbh I probably won't any time soon.
So, the case on Macro. I think it sucks. Points I can find against him:
- His original vote on Voided. I see nothing scummy about it at all.
- His turnaround from thinking Voided is scum to town. I can't see a scum motivation for this at all - Voided was dead set on Macro, and appeasing him wasn't going to do Macro any good. And the timing makes it really fit with Macro-town-giving-up at that point; I can really see Macro thinking that the argument he'd had with Voided made Voided look ok, and he just didn't care about consistency.
- The claims. I don't think they look scummy. I don't think scum are likely claim not-VT and then VT - that's just not how you
getting lynched.
- His turnaround back to thinking Voided is scummy. It happened a while after he attacked Voided, and they'd interacted in the mean time. I don't see why this is scummy at all. How is this a particularly scummy change of opinion?
- Defending himself by saying he is town. This isn't typically scummy, and I can't find any scummy examples of it in Macro's play.
- Calling DCL town with poor reasoning. This is pretty weak; DCL's response is what a townie *should* say, and to call it townish is hardly unlikely.
I think Macro generally looks town. I find his frustration today convincing; there's clearly some serious confirmation bias going round - a lot of the above looks like the result of assigning the scum motivation to something which has perfectly good scum and town motivations. His predecessors still count against him, and that's the only thing that gives me pause, but I'm not interested in that wagon.
For the people on it, I'm actually swinging round to think DCL is town. Mostly because of his LS-me link. Group scumhunting is a pretty solid towntell. (I had that reaction at the time, but forgot about it until a reread).
hiplop is still looking like town to me. See my hiplop/Rhinox wall for why he was town there. Lately, he's wrong about Macro but looks like genuine convinced town.
Voided is on the scummy side of neutral. I didn't like his early posting on Macro - looked like he was using Macro's bad position to write off what he said about him. Since then he's looked pretty tunnelled, in a way I've found tough to read. Recently, he said that Macro's 756, in which he criticised DCL's vote, was good. This looks kind of forced to me. Voided doesn't give any analysis of the post - which is odd because it's mostly a refutation of DCL's case, which overlaps with Voided's and is obviously relevant to Voided thinking Macro is scum. And, generally, I think it's pretty rare to see someone nod and say "yeah, townie post" to someone they are attacking go after another of the attackers. It feels more like Voided is trying to show he's not tunnelled than like he actually agrees with Macro.
@Voided: what was it you found townie about post 756? How did it affect your read on DCL?
DDD is doing more today, which is nice. I can't say I've got much of a read on him atm. I'll try harder soon.
kortul I don't really know about. His posting reads fine, but there's nothing really controversial in there.
On other people; SA is still town, as is Rhinox. Hooray! Alice and 4n I need to have a think about, and I'll do that later tonight. Then I'll vote for one of them, or Voided, or just possibly DDD.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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@Alice: please do expand on your SA vote.
Hmmm. SA's early case on 4n is ok. 4n's response is pretty bad. He ignores the case at first, which I really don't know what to think of (it's pretty alien to me). But the bad bit is after that; when SA asks him why he's ignoring it, he says
In post 288, 4nxi3ty wrote:
don't be ridiculous, I wouldn't be playing the game if I never had to defend myself. Just not a priority of mine to dispel every accusation thrown at me, especially when that person already has it cemented into their head that me and funkybile are scum.In post 249, Sleepless Assassin wrote:So... you . . . Don't defend yourself ever in a mafia game or...?
Ew. SA hadn't at all shown that he had anything of the kind "cemented into his head". He'd made one post, saying why he thought various things from SA were scum. It's pretty implausible that that post made 4n write SA off as hopelessly tunnelled, which is what this implies.
@4n: if you remember, what were you thinking about SA's case at this point? Later, you responded to it, and you had pretty reasonable explanations. Why didn't you post them at the time, to try to convince SA you were town?
I'm going to wait on the answers to these questions before voting.-
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In post 798, Macrophage wrote:In post 787, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:I’ve already trapped him with his own words; he knows what a vanilla townie SHOULD have done and yet he has no explanation for what he did other than, "uh, but I'm vanilla". Busted.
Are you serious?
I don't know what to think of this post. What do others think?
@Fishy: I'm starting doubt my 4nx townread, but despite what has been said, I do think I have good reasons to think him town. What do you think of them?
@Voided: Imagine I've been lynched and have flipped town. How do you see the game then?
*Looks up 4n reasons*.
Well, myself I haven't experienced the "yeah, that's exactly where I am" tell from 4n's posting at all. And the others seem pretty weak. 222 and 743 "scum wouldn't do that because it's too scummy", which I don't think works at all well. 452 is a decent post defending you, but if you are scum it's not something that would be particularly unlikely from scum. It does make me think you unlikely buddies; scum are rarely brave enough to push back at a correct lynch at L-1.
In post 801, 4nxi3ty wrote:In post 796, Fishythefish wrote:@4n: if you remember, what were you thinking about SA's case at this point? Later, you responded to it, and you had pretty reasonable explanations. Why didn't you post them at the time, to try to convince SA you were town?
overly ambitious association scumhunting. why should I be worried about convincing every single person in the game that I am town D1?
So, what made you think that SA was hopelessly tunnelled on a you/funky team? That's what's weird to me - you basically said you weren't going to try and persuade him because he was beyond reason, and I don't get that at all from his posts. Looks like an easy way to write off a case.
OK. I'm reasonably comfortable with the image of voided as a tunnelled town whose tunnel slowly petering out into dissatisfaction with the game. That takes my lynch pool down to 4n, DDD and Alice. I really want to hear Alice's case on SA, and a reply from 4n to the above. On DDD, for some reason I feel like it's something I can crack by thinking harder, and I'll have another bash at it today. For now,
VOTE: 4n-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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In post 806, 4nxi3ty wrote:
...I never said he hopelessly tunneled on a funky/me team... I never said I wasn't going to try and persuade him... And I never said he was beyond reason...In post 804, Fishythefish wrote:So, what made you think that SA was hopelessly tunnelled on a you/funky team? That's what's weird to me - you basically said you weren't going to try and persuade him because he was beyond reason, and I don't get that at all from his posts. Looks like an easy way to write off a case.
I "wrote off his case" by: not responding to it D1 and than responding to it D2 (eventhough he never followed up on his request for a response)
Actually, my last post does exaggerate things a bit. What I'm talking about is this post:
In post 288, 4nxi3ty wrote:
don't be ridiculous, I wouldn't be playing the game if I never had to defend myself. Just not a priority of mine to dispel every accusation thrown at me,In post 249, Sleepless Assassin wrote:So... you . . . Don't defend yourself ever in a mafia game or...?especially when that person already has it cemented into their head that me and funkybile are scum.
Not arguing with someone because something is "cemented in their head" reads to me as dismissing them by saying they are too tunnelled to persuade - and that's the only actual reason you give for not defending. Am I reading you wrong?-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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In post 809, 4nxi3ty wrote:the main reason is the first part of that sentence; D1 I prioritize looking for scum over dispelling every accusation. The second part of that sentence is me attempting to get SA to realize he had an idea cemented into his head that is wrong.
Can you go into detail about why you think DDD's play is nicer than yesterday?
I still don't really understand what you meant. The bit I bolded really reads to me as saying SA is tunnelled, not just that he's wrong. I guess there's not much more to say on this.
I think DDD's actually doing stuff today. I haven't really got a read on that stuff, but I'm hopeful that I can, whereas yesterday he was a big useless blank.